Pete Hegseth tells NATO that a return to Ukraine's 2014 borders is 'unrealistic'

[Gunny]

P*ssy sh*t

If European troops can be deployed to Ukraine as a peacekeeping force without invoking NATO Article 5, what is the point to NATO and Article 5? By that reasoning, any NATO member can pick and choose what they want to support. Not that THAT smells of Trump's ego

Just to point out minor details, but the US currently is in no position to win any major wars on its own and needs allies. Ones that aren't picking and choosing what's convenient for them.

Pete Hegseth tells NATO that a return to Ukraine's 2014 borders is 'unrealistic'

[revelarts]

P*ssy sh*t

If European troops can be deployed to Ukraine as a peacekeeping force without invoking NATO Article 5, what is the point to NATO and Article 5? By that reasoning, any NATO member can pick and choose what they want to support. Not that THAT smells of Trump's ego

Just to point out minor details, but the US currently is in no position to win any major wars on its own and needs allies. Ones that aren't picking and choosing what's convenient for them.

Pete Hegseth tells NATO that a return to Ukraine's 2014 borders is 'unrealistic'

Ukraine is in NATO?
No.
NATO is essentially a -members only- war pack.
Random International "peace keeping" military force/actions is NOT part of the treaty.

It's supposed to promote peace.
"Article 1The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."

Promote peace, settle disputes "by peaceful means" not willy nilly "peace keeping".

If we really care about treaties, laws, written or verbal agreements.... past or present.

[Gunny]

Ukraine is in NATO?
No.
NATO is essentially a -members only- war pack.
Random International "peace keeping" military force/actions is NOT part of the treaty.

It's supposed to promote peace.
"Article 1The Parties undertake, as set forth in the Charter of the United Nations, to settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."

Promote peace, settle disputes "by peaceful means" not willy nilly "peace keeping".

If we really care about treaties, laws, written or verbal agreements.... past or present.

Try reading the article then try again. I'm not proposing anything except kicking Putin's ass completely out of Ukraine. It Trump wants his $2B in rare Earth minerals, he best get to shipping weapons.

[revelarts]

Try reading the article then try again. I'm not proposing anything except kicking Putin's ass completely out of Ukraine. It Trump wants his $2B in rare Earth minerals, he best get to shipping weapons.

"Half of the weapons sent to Ukraine have been SOLD."
Many to Mexican drug cartels.

Zelenski says Half of the money sent to Ukraine didn't go to the war effort.
He doesn't know where it is.

[Black Diamond]

Try reading the article then try again. I'm not proposing anything except kicking Putin's ass completely out of Ukraine. It Trump wants his $2B in rare Earth minerals, he best get to shipping weapons.

Putin will never completely leave Ukraine unless nato sends in troops. And how about Ukraine gives us minerals for all the money:weapons we've already sent.

[fj1200]

P*ssy sh*t

If European troops can be deployed to Ukraine as a peacekeeping force without invoking NATO Article 5, what is the point to NATO and Article 5? By that reasoning, any NATO member can pick and choose what they want to support. Not that THAT smells of Trump's ego

Just to point out minor details, but the US currently is in no position to win any major wars on its own and needs allies. Ones that aren't picking and choosing what's convenient for them.

Pete Hegseth tells NATO that a return to Ukraine's 2014 borders is 'unrealistic'

What is a major war in this day and age? If Ukraine is bolstered by EU "peacekeepers" isn't the whole of the EU militaries up to the task of containing Russia?

And on the other side of the world what is the potential there? China moving on Taiwan? Phillipines? It isn't easy to invade over the South China Sea?

Just wondering... I have no idea.

[fj1200]

Putin will never completely leave Ukraine unless nato sends in troops. And how about Ukraine gives us minerals for all the money:weapons we've already sent.

Wouldn't Russia be keeping the Donbas in this scenario?

[Black Diamond]

Wouldn't Russia be keeping the Donbas in this scenario?

Probably although hegseth did say pre 2014. I think it's unlikely putin leaves donbas. Him leaving Crimea would be 10 times less likely than that.

Unless we send in troops.

[fj1200]

^No doubt. Stop the depopulating of what's left of Ukraine and try to repopulate while getting folks to return. And then stay strong until Putin is dead and hope is successor is lower % A@@H013 than Putin.

[Black Diamond]

^No doubt. Stop the depopulating of what's left of Ukraine and try to repopulate while getting folks to return. And then stay strong until Putin is dead and hope is successor is lower % A@@H013 than Putin.

I believe medvedev is next in line. Or likely to take power if putin dies if you like.

[Gunny]

Putin will never completely leave Ukraine unless nato sends in troops. And how about Ukraine gives us minerals for all the money:weapons we've already sent.

Why? I have no idea what the deal for weapons between Ukraine and anyone supplying them is. If Biden gave them away, that's on him. You have not once seen me state Ukraine should not pay for support by whatever ethical means it can. I was right on top of support being secured by loans the first time it was suggested.

All I got out of that was "the US will be in Ukraine taking advantage, yada, yada, yada For those who are determined Ukraine is the bad guys because on fabricated/revisionist history and bullshit conspiracy theories they invaded Russia, there is no scenario that is okay. Like something as simple as a business deal for weapons. Myself, if I was Ukranian, I'd prefer it that way so I didn't have to listen to forever being held over my head what-all's been done for us

Putin will never leave Ukraine until he gets his ass kicked back across his own border. He will never not be a threat. This isn't his first rodeo. Georgia, Chechnya. He had his hand in Syria. He's in North Africa underwriting rebel wars.

[Gunny]

What is a major war in this day and age? If Ukraine is bolstered by EU "peacekeepers" isn't the whole of the EU militaries up to the task of containing Russia?

And on the other side of the world what is the potential there? China moving on Taiwan? Phillipines? It isn't easy to invade over the South China Sea?

Just wondering... I have no idea.

The issue with the EU "peacekeepers" is most EU members are NATO members. NATO membership ties their hands and there are no "if's". What is the point to NATO without Article 5? EU peacekeepers manning a line with Russia would just delay the inevitable long enough for Russia to rearm and continue. Russia isn't going to stop. It never has.

Europe currently doesn't have the infrastructure to take on Russia. The major players are just now recovering from cutting off Putin's oil 3 years ago. Few, if any have an actual wartime industry and most buy their weapons from us. The best thing going for them now is Ukraine has bled Russia to the bone. Europe could possibly win a conventional war with Russia because of that.

Nobody's going to win anything so long as they feed Ukraine just enough to not lose.

China will move when its ready. So far, no one has stopped them from using numbers to bully everyone in the South China Sea. That's another one that will have to have its ass kicked to stop it. The West played this same game with Germany and Japan and look what it cost in the end when they could have been stopped up from. China is a bigger threat than Russia currently because it has all the numbers and it will take the US and its allies Trump is currently pissing off and pissing on to stand a chance at stopping it.

[Black Diamond]

Why? I have no idea what the deal for weapons between Ukraine and anyone supplying them is. If Biden gave them away, that's on him. You have not once seen me state Ukraine should not pay for support by whatever ethical means it can. I was right on top of support being secured by loans the first time it was suggested.

All I got out of that was "the US will be in Ukraine taking advantage, yada, yada, yada For those who are determined Ukraine is the bad guys because on fabricated/revisionist history and bullshit conspiracy theories they invaded Russia, there is no scenario that is okay. Like something as simple as a business deal for weapons. Myself, if I was Ukranian, I'd prefer it that way so I didn't have to listen to forever being held over my head what-all's been done for us

Putin will never leave Ukraine until he gets his ass kicked back across his own border. He will never not be a threat. This isn't his first rodeo. Georgia, Chechnya. He had his hand in Syria. He's in North Africa underwriting rebel wars.

I am not much for conspiracy theories. I don't think Ukraine is good or bad but rather a pawn. That said Graham really gave himself away.

You can see how the effort to kick putin back to the other side has worked the last three years. What do you suggest to change this direct involvement? Give zelensky nukes so he can tell putin he has three days to pull out of his country or we lift Moscow off the face of the earth?

*i heard zelensky asked for nukes is why i ask.

[Gunny]

I am not much for conspiracy theories. I don't think Ukraine is good or bad but rather a pawn. That said Graham really gave himself away.

You can see how the effort to kick putin back to the other side has worked the last three years. What do you suggest to change this direct involvement? Give zelensky nukes so he can tell putin he has three days to pull out of his country or we lift Moscow off the face of the earth?

*i heard zelensky asked for nukes is why i ask.

First, the West is supporting this war based on Putin's dictates. F*ck him. No one can help Ukraine; meanwhile, Putin's getting arms from Iran and probably China, and has already gone through his first batch of N Korean cannon fodder and is expecting more. Screw the one-sided shit.

Second, trickling just enough to Ukraine so they die a slow, grinding death isn't helping anyone in the long run. Give him the weapons he needs to push Russia off his property. ESPECIALLY if he's going to buy them with rare Earth minerals. Bet money Trump will STILL impose limits on what Ukraine can have and how it can be used. How Trump figures he can set up shop to get those rare Earth's with Russia occupying the place beats me. But with China cornering the market, Ukraine DOES have something Trump/the US wants and needs.

Trump needs to quit playing footsie with Putin. I can see why he does, based on his mouthing off about Panama, Greenland and Gaza. He sounds a LOT like Putin.

Likewise, Zelenskiy needs to quit with this 25-to whatever age for the draft. Around here it's 18. His excuse is they don't have the weapons and whatnot to support those numbers if they did lower the draft age.

I'll go back to one of my original statements: Give them what it takes to win. They're doing to fighting and dying. It's better than sending US troops which inevitably will happen should Putin not be stopped. If for no other reason and despite Trump's shit-talk, the US cannot financially afford for Europe to fall to Russia. They spend a LOT of money here and if comes down to a war of numbers like Russia is currently fighting? We need European numbers too. We don't have them alone.

[Kathianne]

Gunny has been articulating my concerns about Ukraine, Trump, and Putin. The following goes a bit further and gives context:

https://www.wsj.com/opinion/donald-t...hare_permalink