Donald Trump Ally Joins RFK Jr Lawsuit Against Joe Biden

[Gunny]

More spaghetti Of course freedom of speech purists are going to agree with this; especially, if they agree with RFK, Jr.

I'm all about free speech and I'm not for government controlling it. I'm also about the responsibility that goes with it. People get controlled when they ignore responsibility and fact in favor of narrative. It's not okay to lie, especially when social media reaches and can mislead millions. Like it's been doing.

Donald Trump Ally Joins RFK Jr Lawsuit Against Joe Biden

[revelarts]

More spaghetti Of course freedom of speech purists are going to agree with this; especially, if they agree with RFK, Jr.

I'm all about free speech and I'm not for government controlling it. I'm also about the responsibility that goes with it. People get controlled when they ignore responsibility and fact in favor of narrative. It's not okay to lie, especially when social media reaches and can mislead millions. Like it's been doing.

Donald Trump Ally Joins RFK Jr Lawsuit Against Joe Biden

So when politicians lie and thousands end up dead it's sad but OK. protected by the constitution.
Voting them out = "consequences".
But if private citizens lie (or tell the truth) on SM they need to be "responsible" & their needs to be censorship + consequences.
Consequences = more censorship, Smeared, possible loss of job, credentials, travel privileges, maybe freedom, maybe personal fines over billion dollars.

So that Constitution doesn't really mean jack sh1t if the right people don't like/agree with what you say.

[Black Diamond]

Id like to ask the author of the article what "covid misinformation" is. Does that include that masks work for example?

[Gunny]

So when politicians lie and thousands end up dead it's sad but OK. protected by the constitution.
Voting them out = "consequences".
But if private citizens lie (or tell the truth) on SM they need to be "responsible" & their needs to be censorship + consequences.
Consequences = more censorship, Smeared, possible loss of job, credentials, travel privileges, maybe freedom, maybe personal fines over billion dollars.

So that Constitution doesn't really mean jack sh1t if the right people don't like/agree with what you say.

You're missing the point. None of the above should be lying. And no, it has nothing to do with your exaggerated stances on the Constitution. This wouldn't be an issue at all but for the lies.

Instead, we have to have laws up the ass governing lying, when I've heard very few people that even know the definition. They think differing opinions are lies and misinformation. Anything that goes against their narrative is lies and misinformation. One side tries to refute the others' misinformation with their own misinformation. Nobody wants the facts or truth unless it suits their personal narratives.

People in search of the facts are screwed.

[Black Diamond]

You're missing the point. None of the above should be lying. And no, it has nothing to do with your exaggerated stances on the Constitution. This wouldn't be an issue at all but for the lies.

Instead, we have to have laws up the ass governing lying, when I've heard very few people that even know the definition. They think differing opinions are lies and misinformation. Anything that goes against their narrative is lies and misinformation. One side tries to refute the others' misinformation with their own misinformation. Nobody wants the facts or truth unless it suits their personal narratives.

People in search of the facts are screwed.

I agree there was misinformation on both sides. I was exposed to a lot of it outside this board.

[Gunny]

I agree there was misinformation on both sides. I was exposed to a lot of it outside this board.

Yeah, it gets rammed down your throat on left-leaning boards or you get canceled, bullied/dogpiled, neg-repped into oblivion

As in most things, the abusers have to ruin it for everyone else. One question is, where is the line drawn between "exercising free speech" and the above; which, in the name of free speech is actually shutting it down?

[revelarts]

Yeah, it gets rammed down your throat on left-leaning boards or you get canceled, bullied/dogpiled, neg-repped into oblivion

As in most things, the abusers have to ruin it for everyone else. One question is, where is the line drawn between "exercising free speech" and the above; which, in the name of free speech is actually shutting it down?

In this particular court case.
Biden/the govt is trying to pressure Social Meida Corps to remove RFK jrs statements on the covid vaccines from their websites.

Do you think the govt should be able to censor & remove RFK jrs comments on this subject from the internet?
If so why?
If so why should it only be banned on the internet?

where do you think the line should be, in general... for everyone?

[Gunny]

In this particular court case.
Biden/the govt is trying to pressure Social Meida Corps to remove RFK jrs statements on the covid vaccines from their websites.

Do you think the govt should be able to censor & remove RFK jrs comments on this subject from the internet?
If so why?
If so why should it only be banned on the internet?

where do you think the line should be, in general... for everyone?

Depends on presentation. Same as it does on this board. I don't have a problem with opinions being presented as opinions. That's straight forward "I believe ...". Presenting opinions as absolute fact can be and usually is mis/disinformation and it goes downhill from there. People doubling down on their opinions by presenting junk science or fairy tales as 'evidence".

I firmly believe it is the responsibility of the Federal government to protect the citizens of the US. It's their job. In the case of something like a World-wide pandemic it is the government's responsibility to not only protect and serve its people to the best of its ability, but ensure that it is factually informed of the w's.

I see nothing but failure here on all parts. The government pushed an agenda rather than providing facts and support. Every Tom, Dick, Harry and RFK,Jr had a conspiracy theory flooding the internet as to why the government was trying to kill us all. The other side pushed the unvaccinated were going to kill us all. Neither were right. Neither served any purpose but to confuse the people that wanted to know the facts, and harden the opinions of the Kool Aid drinkers on both extremes of issue.

I don't think RFK has a leg to stand on pushing conspiracy theories as fact, nor do I think the Biden Admin has a leg to stand on pushing its unconstitutional mandate.

If I knew of an answer where to "draw the line" on free speech that wasn't going to have one or the other crying like little bitches their Constitutional Rights were being diminished I'd run for President my own damned self. There is no compromise, logic nor common sense applied to the issue. One man's free speech is another man's misinformation and that's how it gets twisted and sold.

[Black Diamond]

@Gunny @revelarts

What about lying vs being mistaken?

[revelarts]

@Gunny @revelarts

What about lying vs being mistaken?

If someone lies about another person/biz and it causes them real harm.
There're laws & court to deal with that.

If someone lies about facts and someone acts on those facts and it causes them real harm.
There're' laws & court to deal with that.
(the food labeling laws set up rules & punishments for lying.)

If someone lies about the gov't, IMO, the govt should just correct the lie and move on.
It's not hindered by money or reach to get it's messages out.

The thing is, in all cases, there should be no PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE against people saying or hearing things in the 1st place.
No censorship before others hear it.
No gag orders, gov't smears/attacks, or govt lead social/professional punishments so certain folks rarely or never get a chance to speak & hear.

[Gunny]

@Gunny @revelarts

What about lying vs being mistaken?

Whole different can of worms.

A lie is an untrue or inaccurate statement made with the deliberate intent to deceive or mislead someone

IMO, lies must be proven otherwise it's a case of lack of education and/or stupidity and/or deranged beliefs. There are plenty of examples from every direction. The bar is high to prove a lie. While as it should be, that fact alone is abused greatly. People easily abuse language to afford themselves plausible deniability because intent is equally as hard to prove.

For example: where did the terms "misspoke" and "misinformation" come from? The left and its lackey media. What have they been used for? To cover their politicians' asses when anyone reading the BS could see obvious caught in a lie.

For us mere mortals I follow this rule: Lying is bad for business. Sorry, nor preachy, moral high ground. If you get caught in a lie once, you are a liar forever. While that doesn't matter to politicians and media and stupid people because they fear no consequence, those of us that live in the real World day to day do face consequences.

There's also the laziness factor for me. When you start lying, you have to compound that lie with others to give it substance. Then you have to remember them all or you will bust yourself. I'm too lazy for all that mental subterfuge
If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything but what happened.

I digress Until people are held accountable for lying, it means something only to honest people. Our politicians, media and apparently celebrities set the standard and they do not hold themselves accountable. The law apparently hold only Donald Trump accountable

[revelarts]

Depends on presentation. Same as it does on this board. I don't have a problem with opinions being presented as opinions. That's straight forward "I believe ...". Presenting opinions as absolute fact can be and usually is mis/disinformation and it goes downhill from there. People doubling down on their opinions by presenting junk science or fairy tales as 'evidence".

I firmly believe it is the responsibility of the Federal government to protect the citizens of the US. It's their job. In the case of something like a World-wide pandemic it is the government's responsibility to not only protect and serve its people to the best of its ability, but ensure that it is factually informed of the w's.

I see nothing but failure here on all parts. The government pushed an agenda rather than providing facts and support. Every Tom, Dick, Harry and RFK,Jr had a conspiracy theory flooding the internet as to why the government was trying to kill us all. The other side pushed the unvaccinated were going to kill us all. Neither were right. Neither served any purpose but to confuse the people that wanted to know the facts, and harden the opinions of the Kool Aid drinkers on both extremes of issue.

I don't think RFK has a leg to stand on pushing conspiracy theories as fact, nor do I think the Biden Admin has a leg to stand on pushing its unconstitutional mandate.

If I knew of an answer where to "draw the line" on free speech that wasn't going to have one or the other crying like little bitches their Constitutional Rights were being diminished I'd run for President my own damned self. There is no compromise, logic nor common sense applied to the issue. One man's free speech is another man's misinformation and that's how it gets twisted and sold.

I hear you.
Thing is, if the govt censorship side gets it's way, then you'll only hear one side crying. no one will know about the other sides whining.

But sure, in general, the problem of freedom is that it's messy. It's never going to be safe.
And yes, the role of go'vt is to protect the people.
However in the past concerning speech, seems what we promoted for the go'vt is that it counter bad info with good info.
If RFK jr is so crazy then the gov't should easily be able to counter what he's said with experts & facts that answer his questions & crazy/false assertions.
Folks act as if he's some kind of evil genius, Pied Piper that some folks cannot resist.
His tricksie lawyer ways and soothing voice are too much for the govt to deal with.
So the the ONLY solution is the shut him up.

The gov't did the same with MLK, Malcome X and several other civil rights types. Censorship, smears and finally assassinations.

On this specific issue I think we all agree that the govt is NOT everyone's doctor.
And the fact is some people will try anything to get well,
others will follow "mainstream" medicine to the letter.
Others will refuse everything.
And the medical reality is that different things will work (or fail) for different people.
There's ZERO 100% effective treatments protections (or a even 100% deadly disease.)

IMO the govt should INFORM the public as best it can with all of the resources at it's disposal, and TEST ALL options and make all the info 100% public.
At that point it's up to people to make their own choices.

The govt could have debated RFK jr, Dr Batachyria and others who had various POVs on the issue. But instead they decided to roll their eyes, censor & smear.
The fact that govt & media decided to censor & smear showed me that, at best, that the gov't had the WEAKER case. And, over time, that became more & more apparent.
At worse, it showed me that the govt was acting corruptly. and yes unconstitutionally.

Personally i feel better if the lying/mistaken crooks are NOT in the gov't. Lying AND controlling what private citizens can say or hear.
At least if the gov't aligns itself with the law AS WRITTEN. (Since it's given ZERO authority over speech) Then it's possible to find out whose telling the truth.
The govt is not our parents, our church, commanding officer or God. It doesn't get to control what you or I get to hear.
Especially when it come to medical information.

And I understand that many think RFKjr's words hurt or killed people. And the govt should be protecting people from that somehow.
There are others with family members who are injured & dead from the Covid vaccines who think the govt hurt people and RFKjr was protected people.

Seems very clear to me that neither you, I or the gov't should be making the call on who folks can hear about personal medical issues. No matter what our personal opinions are on who's mistaken, lying or crazy.

....

When i was a kid I was taught that freedom of speech was a Human Right and in America that was recognized by the gov't that was given NO power over it. And that only communist, fascist and totalitarian dictatorships felt the need to censor & control speech regularly.
Sadly it seems more & more Americans (left & right) think that free speech is more dangerous than the gov't controlling what can and cannot be said and heard.

It's weird to me.