I Would Have Said; I HAVE Said, "No Way Will I Vote For Trump!"

[revelarts]

Plenty of people are inspired by populist rhetoric. Populist rhetoric is a bit more attractive than small-government conservatism these days.

Who's promoting or representing small-government conservatism these days?

Conservatives who want to project U.S. power all over the world have never really been small-government conservatives.
You can't do unlimited military industrial complex and small-government conservatism.

What politicians do you have in mind who really promote small-government conservatism these days?
What policies of Trumps are against small-government conservatism?
I know he TALKED about "health care" which he never did.
But off hand i can't think of any other major BIG gov't liberal policies, or BIG gov't conservative policies.

[fj1200]

Who's promoting or representing small-government conservatism these days?

Conservatives who want to project U.S. power all over the world have never really been small-government conservatives.
You can't do unlimited military industrial complex and small-government conservatism.

What politicians do you have in mind who really promote small-government conservatism these days?
What policies of Trumps are against small-government conservatism?
I know he TALKED about "health care" which he never did.
But off hand i can't think of any other major BIG gov't liberal policies, or BIG gov't conservative policies.

As I've said before I used to think most Republican voters were small government people but I've learned otherwise starting around say 2015. Many of them like big government just not the lefts version thereof. Unfortunately populism is having a moment but I'm hoping conservatism wins out in the long run.

[Kathianne]

As I've said before I used to think most Republican voters were small government people but I've learned otherwise starting around say 2015. Many of them like big government just not the lefts version thereof. Unfortunately populism is having a moment but I'm hoping conservatism wins out in the long run.

I used to. It seems Trump and now minions have enraptured the bulk of where hope used to lay. I'm very pessimistic about reasonable conservatives or more reasonable liberals. There's very little middle left.

[revelarts]

I used to. It seems Trump and now minions have enraptured the bulk of where hope used to lay. I'm very pessimistic about reasonable conservatives or more reasonable liberals. There's very little middle left.

What middle ground policies are you thinking of here?
Or are you thinking more in terms of a general spirit of competitive but cordial rivalry with cooperation/compromise in gov't?
Or something else?

[Kathianne]

What middle ground policies are you thinking of here?
Or are you thinking more in terms of a general spirit of competitive but friendly rivalry with cooperation/compromise in gov't?
Or something else?

I'm talking about the ability to understand that others may very well be good people and disagree with you intensely. Friendly disagreements, those without any hope of converting the others to your point of view, may require both sides to move towards a middle, losing some of what's desired, but also keeping or gaining some. Then able to shake hands and wait for the next opportunity to move your points forward.

The unwise on campuses today are just reflective of the 'adults' they've observed since birth and have been educated by since 5 years of age. No compromise, willing to hit the enemy over the head with a metal bat, you know, to gain their point. Intimidation is the name of the game and winning is everything NOW is the endgame. In many cases the educators and parents are out there with them. So mature and so very, very fatal for our type of government.

This didn't start with Trump, not by a long shot. What he did, just like 1/6 is make it inevitable that others would pick up the challenge, on one side or the other. Obama did the same, but in ways less prone towards immediate violence-though the underlying promise was there. Biden has just frustrated everyone to such a degree that folks are ready to just attack anyone and often it's playing out on the streets of the cities.

Just a President, no matter how influential for good or bad, is not along in cause. Nope, there's a huge number of educators, business/banking, social leaders, famous/infamous helping them with their ultimate desired outcomes.

[revelarts]

I'm talking about the ability to understand that others may very well be good people and disagree with you intensely. Friendly disagreements, those without any hope of converting the others to your point of view, may require both sides to move towards a middle, losing some of what's desired, but also keeping or gaining some. Then able to shake hands and wait for the next opportunity to move your points forward.

The unwise on campuses today are just reflective of the 'adults' they've observed since birth and have been educated by since 5 years of age. No compromise, willing to hit the enemy over the head with a metal bat, you know, to gain their point. Intimidation is the name of the game and winning is everything NOW is the endgame. In many cases the educators and parents are out there with them. So mature and so very, very fatal for our type of government.

This didn't start with Trump, not by a long shot. What he did, just like 1/6 is make it inevitable that others would pick up the challenge, on one side or the other. Obama did the same, but in ways less prone towards immediate violence-though the underlying promise was there. Biden has just frustrated everyone to such a degree that folks are ready to just attack anyone and often it's playing out on the streets of the cities.

Just a President, no matter how influential for good or bad, is not along in cause. Nope, there's a huge number of educators, business/banking, social leaders, famous/infamous helping them with their ultimate desired outcomes.

I get that.
That's a very real loss.

And I think that's something that has to start from our side. With what you mentioned. acknowledging the humanity of the everyone who doesn't agree with us.
That's simply a FACT. and it must be a basis, at least from us, for any conversation & work. (foreign and domestic BTW)
What i don't know is WHERE we can legitimately compromise. we've kind of backed up to the edge of cliff in compromises over the past 50 years.
So that many consider "the middle" is what the FAR left used to be. And what was consider the middle right is considered the EXTREME Populist Isolationist right.

What do you think can be a point of compromise for the right ...if the other side were willing to talk?

[Kathianne]

I get that.
That's a very real loss.

And I think that's something that has to start from our side. With what you mentioned. acknowledging the humanity of the everyone who doesn't agree with us.
That's simply a FACT. and it must be a basis, at least from us, for any conversation & work. (foreign and domestic BTW)
What i don't know is WHERE we can legitimately compromise. we've kind of backed up to the edge of cliff in compromises over the past 50 years.
So that many consider "the middle" is what the FAR left used to be. And what was consider the middle right is considered the EXTREME Populist Isolationist right.

What do you think can be a point of compromise for the right ...if the other side were willing to talk?

IMO, things are so very dysfunctional it's probably a good idea to start with the basics:
Expecting people to refrain from cursing as President, on Congressional floor, in classrooms, in boardrooms...
Treating all, those agreeing and those disagreeing with basic courtesy-please, thank you, you first...
Going to the trouble to dress appropriately and with a nod to those one is going to interacting with that they are important enough of your time-Work, school, restaurants, (I for one don't want to see your butt crack. I assume no one is looking for a peek at 70 year old cleavage?)

It's a start.

Then there is again an acknowledgement that we are not always on the winning side, regardless of how 'right' or moral. I've said many times before, I AM pro-life. I know that the vast majority of Americans are not for the extreme position of abortion birth or even a bit beyond. However, many are not in line with my thinking either-rape, incest, physical life of the mother. States though are much more responsive to their citizens than the fed. It's the right level to be dealing with the law on this topic, imo. I don't think NY, IL are going to pass abortion laws I think right, but many other states will. OTOH, the courts will step in when things go too far-such as the resurrection of AZ law.

The system of government we HAD, was built only for incremental change-had to intellectually fight for every yard. Now our country of infants on right and left, must have their way or the war will come.

[revelarts]

As I've said before I used to think most Republican voters were small government people but I've learned otherwise starting around say 2015. Many of them like big government just not the lefts version thereof. Unfortunately populism is having a moment but I'm hoping conservatism wins out in the long run.

What populist policies do you think are a problem at this point?
And again
What policies of Trumps are against small-government conservatism?

[fj1200]

What populist policies do you think are a problem at this point?
And again
What policies of Trumps are against small-government conservatism?

I'm not interested in rehashing every position he may or may not take. He may have some small-government positions but he generally stumbles into them. His followers are not really into advancing a conservative ideology are the? They're following a person. That is one of the base presumptions of my "populism is evil" position (there's a thread about it).

[revelarts]

I'm not interested in rehashing every position he may or may not take. He may have some small-government positions but he generally stumbles into them. His followers are not really into advancing a conservative ideology are the? They're following a person. That is one of the base presumptions of my "populism is evil" position (there's a thread about it).

Pragmatically.
If you are for small gov't conservatism, and ANY candidate even stumbles INTO most of the policies that promote it, doesn't it make sense for you to vote for that person?
Especially of no other candidates are available or are moving in that direction at all?

I understand the general dislike of Trump, and your fears of populism.
But if the current form of populist POLICIES are a in fact largely Small Gov't Conservatism, what's your real beef?

And Ok, You say you don't want to rehash EVERY Trump position.
How about ONE Trump Small Govt Conservative policy that you support?
And ONE of Trump's evil populist policies that you think is horrifying and will destroy us all?

Concerning your fear of populism, Seems to me that after Trump is gone I dont see that there's anyone on the horizon much like him.
So the so-called "populist" aspects you fear will probably fade away a lot.
Plus, as you said, there haven't been many real small govt conservatives in leadership or the rank-&-file republicans for a LONG time anyway.
Most of the leadership and Rank-&-File are not principals based folks generally speaking.
Personally I'm more concerned about the unprincipled pragmatist than the unprincipled populist.

[fj1200]

Pragmatically.
If you are for small gov't conservatism, and ANY candidate even stumbles INTO most of the policies that promote it, doesn't it make sense for you to vote for that person?
Especially of no other candidates are available or are moving in that direction at all?

I understand the general dislike of Trump, and your fears of populism.
But if the current form of populist POLICIES are a in fact largely Small Gov't Conservatism, what's your real beef?

And Ok, You say you don't want to rehash EVERY Trump position.
How about ONE Trump Small Govt Conservative policy that you support?
And ONE of Trump's evil populist policies that you think is horrifying and will destroy us all?

Concerning your fear of populism, Seems to me that after Trump is gone I dont see that there's anyone on the horizon much like him.
So the so-called "populist" aspects you fear will probably fade away a lot.
Plus, as you said, there haven't been many real small govt conservatives in leadership or the rank-&-file republicans for a LONG time anyway.
Most of the leadership and Rank-&-File are not principals based folks generally speaking.
Personally I'm more concerned about the unprincipled pragmatist than the unprincipled populist.

I think your first paragraph is exactly counter to things that you have said in the past like "why vote for that guy they're just all the same."

I never said that they were largely small government, I said, "some." And populist policies in this case are not for advancing conservatism, they are for advancing a person.

As I said before I'm not going to rehash it. There are other threads. He is unworthy of my vote.

Again, don't summarize what I say. There are plenty of trump minions around that my confidence that they'll go away isn't sky high.

[revelarts]

I think your first paragraph is exactly counter to things that you have said in the past like "why vote for that guy they're just all the same."

That's a poor summery of what I've said over the years.
I don't mind making detailed policy distinctions, and have for many candidates over time here.
I'd be happy to rehash it, There are other threads where i make LIST of differences. sad thing is it's usually in primaries.
After that I tend to list the similarities in the poverty and horrors of the candidates. Yes.
BTW FJ, Have i ever talked to you about Ron Paul?

I never said that they were largely small government, I said, "some." And populist policies in this case are not for advancing conservatism, they are for advancing a person.
As I said before I'm not going to rehash it. There are other threads. He is unworthy of my vote.
Again, don't summarize what I say. There are plenty of trump minions around that my confidence that they'll go away isn't sky high.

Ok "Some" small government polices.
Does Biden support ANY?

Trump can't run after 4 years, from a pragmatist POV, and a small government Principled POV it seems to me that someone like yourself would hold your nose and vote Trump.
Like I did for Bush Jr the 2nd time.
I didn't vote for Biden or Trump last time but Trump was not as bad as I expected him to be.
This time around I'm sadly leaning into voting Trump, if for no other reason than to cancel my wife's vote for Biden.. her anti-trump vote really.
but there are other reasons too.