Morality is rational.

[AHZ]

Morality is definitely rational.

Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors that faciltate voluntary, cooperative, and mutally beneficial relationships.

To figure out what is moral apply jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational.

if jesus told you to be rational would rationality be religious dogma?

no, it just means that's a good religion.

rationality is not morality in and of itself. one could very easily rationalize lying to and poisoning all of humanity, if one possesses a 'might makes right' darwinian / evil outlook, like big pharma nazis do.

Morality is more that rationality. it is rationality plus wanting coexistence and peace, and presuming acceptance.

all the worlds relgions possess basic moral truths and practice them within the community.

they all have their focuses, peculiarities, and different outlook on relations with "other". some are less peaceful than others.

the "turn the other cheek" /golden rule ethos of christianity and appeal to the heart instead of coercion does make christianity well suited to multicultural contexts we live in now. some are too stabby and beheady and need reforming, though some parties like stabby and beheady due to posessing genocidal ideologies. these are false moralities and seek to cover human on human predation with a patina of thin/bad logic.

i know, "the crusades" etc, but the roman papal cult is not a great version of christianity.

i think the amish have it right and are basically the perfect people, though of course, we all are flawed and falled, life being a constant battle to love perfect a perfect love in a fallen world.

and oh yeah. The catholic church invented islam.

[revelarts]

Morality is definitely rational.

Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors that faciltate voluntary, cooperative, and mutally beneficial relationships.

To figure out what is moral apply jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational.

if Jesus told you to be rational would rationality be religious dogma?

no, it just means that's a good religion.

rationality is not morality in and of itself. one could very easily rationalize lying to and poisoning all of humanity, if one possesses a 'might makes right' darwinian / evil outlook, like big pharma nazis do.

Morality is more that rationality. it is rationality plus wanting coexistence and peace, and presuming acceptance.

all the worlds relgions possess basic moral truths and practice them within the community.

they all have their focuses, peculiarities, and different outlook on relations with "other". some are less peaceful than others.

the "turn the other cheek" /golden rule ethos of christianity and appeal to the heart instead of coercion does make christianity well suited to multicultural contexts we live in now. some are too stabby and beheady and need reforming, though some parties like stabby and beheady due to posessing genocidal ideologies. these are false moralities and seek to cover human on human predation with a patina of thin/bad logic.

i know, "the crusades" etc, but the roman papal cult is not a great version of christianity.

i think the amish have it right and are basically the perfect people, though of course, we all are flawed and falled, life being a constant battle to love perfect a perfect love in a fallen world.

and oh yeah. The catholic church invented islam.

Yes, morality is rational.

you say
"To figure out what is moral apply Jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational."

Ok, so we START with Jesus. Yes, That's what i'm saying.
the Base is Jesus/God.

We don't start with Darwin.
If we start with Darwin what do we get?

Darwin says we're just animals, and everything about us is just for survival and reproduction.
If that's the case then good and evil are just as important for survival & reproduction. Since it's part of our nature. Also we see "from nature" that there's nothing inherent in any species survival. that is to say that there's nothing guaranteed about survival. There are more kinds of extinct animals than living. There's nothing in nature that says we should use empathy in every case (any case)...to maximize our individual survival. By any means necessary seems more natural. And if we want to expand our reproduction, men should spread seed far and wide. And abortions should never happen BTW.

If children/adults are taught that Jesus is a myth, or a take it or leave it "religious" figure who should never be talked in polite conversation... or ever in politics.
And Darwinism is FACTUALLY true beyond question.
Why exactly should anyone take the so-called words of Jesus anymore seriously than the words of Santa Claus?
While Karl Marks was a real person, who says the world is all class struggle and you have to break the system, and religion is just another control system of the capitalist elite.

If Jesus words shouldn't even be mentioned in public, or in schools, or in politics, or in polite conversations. Who's going to know what He or his apostles said anyway.
And if, at best, 'religious people" should Join Darwinism with Jesus ...somehow... where's Jesus in the mix with Darwin, a higher or lower authority?

Does it make sense for young people or anyone to RATIONALLY apply the words of Jesus to anything serious?

[AHZ]

Yes, morality is rational.

you say
"To figure out what is moral apply Jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational."

Ok, so we START with Jesus. Yes, That's what i'm saying.
the Base is Jesus/God.

We don't start with Darwin.
If we start with Darwin what do we get?

Darwin says we're just animals, and everything about us is just for survival and reproduction.
If that's the case then good and evil are just as important for survival & reproduction. Since it's part of our nature. Also we see "from nature" that there's nothing inherent in any species survival. that is to say that there's nothing guaranteed about survival. There are more kinds of extinct animals than living. There's nothing in nature that says we should use empathy in every case (any case)...to maximize our individual survival. By any means necessary seems more natural. And if we want to expand our reproduction, men should spread seed far and wide. And abortions should never happen BTW.

If children/adults are taught that Jesus is a myth, or a take it or leave it "religious" figure who should never be talked in mixed company... or ever in politics.
And Darwinism is FACTUALLY true beyond question.
Why exactly should anyone take the so-called words of Jesus anymore seriously than the words of Santa Claus?
While Karl Marks was a real person, who says the world is all class struggle and you have to break the system, and religion is just another control system of the capitalist elite.

If Jesus words shouldn't even be mentioned in public, or in schools, or in politics, or in polite conversations. Who's going know what he said anyway.
And if, at best, 'religious people" should Join Darwinism with Jesus ...somehow... where's Jesus in the mix with Darwin, a higher or lower authority?

Does it make sense for young people or anyone to RATIONALLY apply the words of Jesus to anything serious?

but it's not a fixed list of anything specific. it's a call to use one;s personal judgement and own experiences to know how to treat others.

I'm pro religious. Im fine mentioning god and jesus in public.

of course god is rational. all religions share 90+ percent of their moral teachings.

i think all the religions are more alike than not alike.

these anti-religionists always say religion can only be divisive, that's beause they have a mass delusion in their brain that causes them to gin up war for profit and call it noble. they make everything divisive as a business model.

that's evil.

god is the answer, not the problem.

morality is a feature, not a bug.

i mention darwinism because darwinism is often used to justify evil behavior about "survival of the fittest" or the luciferian ideology.

The flaw in that is morality and working together is our strongest feature. and elities throw away that reality and pefer their 'Might makes right' / "it's ok to lie to everybody" ideology.

even if we descended from apes, that doesn't mean morality is regressive. it's our path forward.

the separtion of church and state is not the separation of humanity from morality. the latter is the demonic abuse of freedom policies.

[AHZ]

Does it make sense for young people or anyone to RATIONALLY apply the words of Jesus to anything serious?

yes. we would have a revolution of human consciousness and spirituality.

[revelarts]

yes. we would have a revolution of human consciousness and spirituality.

That would be OUTSTANDING.

But if they end up believing the lies they've been told were facts, that Jesus, and all religions, are just myths & tools of control & the cause of most wars and conflict through history, it would not be a rational move on their part.


But yes, Youth turning to Jesus's words and person... in mass... for a spiritual awakening.


let it be done.

[AHZ]

That would be OUTSTANDING.

But if they end up believing the lies they've been told were facts, that Jesus, and all religions, are just myths & tools of control & the cause of most wars and conflict through history, it would not be a rational move on their part.


But yes, Youth turning to Jesus's words and person... in mass... for a spiritual awakening.


let it be done.

religious organizations can become corrupt and power seeking and start interpreting the core doctrines to that end. too much wisdom of the fathers can lead to fascism. Oh shit did he say that?

religions are tools of control on the dark side, but also transmitters of morality and light.

the human ability to cooperate is really our ace in the hole.

it all comes down to us and what we do with things.

[AHZ]

Have you all checked out alan watts on christianity and the eastern religions.

quite insightful.

and hilarious.

He made a point how chrisitianity is really playing with fire by talking about men being gods also.

"ok, but just one of you...."

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

In this world there exists good and evil. It is rational
to be good, to do good. Those that believe evil is rational or that evil is better, are indeed crazy.
Of course sane people know this already.
So just what are the people that think the opposite is true???--Tyr

[AHZ]

In this world there exists good and evil. It is rational
to be good, to do good. Those that believe evil is rational or that evil is better, are indeed crazy.
Of course sane people know this already.
So just what are the people that think the opposite is true???--Tyr

i think it's people doing awful things and committed to evil trying to lie to themselves.

[Gunny]

Morality is definitely rational.

Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors that faciltate voluntary, cooperative, and mutally beneficial relationships.

To figure out what is moral apply jesus' golden rule, which comes to us from a religious tradition, but the rule calls for the individual to use empathy, imagination, and personal judgement, and is ultimately rational.

if jesus told you to be rational would rationality be religious dogma?

no, it just means that's a good religion.

rationality is not morality in and of itself. one could very easily rationalize lying to and poisoning all of humanity, if one possesses a 'might makes right' darwinian / evil outlook, like big pharma nazis do.

Morality is more that rationality. it is rationality plus wanting coexistence and peace, and presuming acceptance.

all the worlds relgions possess basic moral truths and practice them within the community.

they all have their focuses, peculiarities, and different outlook on relations with "other". some are less peaceful than others.

the "turn the other cheek" /golden rule ethos of christianity and appeal to the heart instead of coercion does make christianity well suited to multicultural contexts we live in now. some are too stabby and beheady and need reforming, though some parties like stabby and beheady due to posessing genocidal ideologies. these are false moralities and seek to cover human on human predation with a patina of thin/bad logic.

i know, "the crusades" etc, but the roman papal cult is not a great version of christianity.

i think the amish have it right and are basically the perfect people, though of course, we all are flawed and falled, life being a constant battle to love perfect a perfect love in a fallen world.

and oh yeah. The catholic church invented islam.

Morality is rationalized, not necessarily rational.

[revelarts]

Morality is rationalized, not necessarily rational.

if we begin and end with only ourselves.
There's an inner morality that we KNOW.
Similar to the way we know if we're off balance.
Problem is the culture is like living all our lives on different ships where we get used to the bobbing and swaying. Yet we manage to stay upright most of the time. and have some sense of up & down and sideways.
But when someone says there's such a thing as land that does not move. That the water and ships float on.
people who've never been on land don't believe it.
And just want to trust their guts that they are standing up strait... most of the time. When they've never really every known what solid ground is.

Jesus is the Rock. God is the foundation. the objective standard. the source of morality.

Water and ships floating in space makes no sense.
Morality without a foundation somewhere makes no sense.
if there's no universal foundation then everyones personal sense of morals. up, down, sideways, is just as good as anyone elses.

You don't have to believe in God or the land if you don't want to.
You can tell people to trust their guts and personal sense of balance and the words of Davey Jones. Cause Davey jones was a wise man...maybe.
Or tell people to just check the deck of the ship. Yes, that's it's better than Nothing.
And is generally based on the land anyway.
Even though they can't see it, or even believe in it.

But the thing is if you REALLY want to get strait and level you have to reference the land.
rationally speaking.

[Gunny]

if we begin and end with only ourselves.
There's an inner morality that we KNOW.
Similar to the way we know if we're off balance.
Problem is the culture is like living all our lives on different ships where we get used to the bobbing and swaying. Yet we manage to stay upright most of the time. and have some sense of up & down and sideways.
But when someone says there's such a thing as land that does not move. That the water and ships float on.
people who've never been on land don't believe it.
And just want to trust their guts that they are standing up strait... most of the time. When they've never really every known what solid ground is.

Jesus is the Rock. God is the foundation. the objective standard. the source of morality.

Water and ships floating in space makes no sense.
Morality without a foundation somewhere makes no sense.
if there's no universal foundation then everyones personal sense of morals. up, down, sideways, is just as good as anyone elses.

You don't have to believe in God or the land if you don't want to.
You can tell people to trust their guts and personal sense of balance and the words of Davey Jones. Cause Davey jones was a wise man...maybe.
Or tell people to just check the deck of the ship. Yes, that's it's better than Nothing.
And is generally based on the land anyway.
Even though they can't see it, or even believe in it.

But the thing is if you REALLY want to get strait and level you have to reference the land.
rationally speaking.

No such thing as inner/inherent morality. Morality is what societies determine to be right/wrong, good/bad. We are born knowing only hunger and cold. We do what it takes to survive. If we are born into a society, we learn what we are taught from society in order to survive. Even if we choose later to go against society, our Worldview is STILL based on what it has taught us.

Judeo-Christianity is taught to us from birth. Christians take it on faith, AND CALL IT THAT, that Christ is our Savior and through Him we earn eternal salvation. Had we not been taught such, our Worldview would be completely different.

[revelarts]

No such thing as inner/inherent morality. Morality is what societies determine to be right/wrong, good/bad. We are born knowing only hunger and cold. We do what it takes to survive. If we are born into a society, we learn what we are taught from society in order to survive. Even if we choose later to go against society, our Worldview is STILL based on what it has taught us.

Well you know that's what a lot of folks use to teach. (after schools got away from the biblical world view)
but there have been studies of Babies... before they can speak.
where they show them a puppet show of one puppet mistreating another. then after the show give the puppets to the child and over and over again the children tries to punish the aggressive puppets.

What are some of the 1st words out of a child's mouth?
after "mine!" it's
"that's not fair!".
they say it with the clear expectation that others know INTUITIVELY exactly what they are talking about.

researchers have gone around the world and looked at most cultures, most cultures understand some version of "right and wrong" and want to paint themselves as right.
like here in the U.S. where abortionist try to paint themselves as helping women. Doing "good".
the moral leaning inside of people is in fact innate. (the expression of it .. as i mentioned in the previous... can be all over the place)
And when it's not there we call that person a psychopath.
If i understand it correctly we don't call them that just because they aren't following cultural norms,
Or even that they aren't generally doing right or wrong themselves.
They know, from watching others, what it means. But they have no real sense of it or guilt themselves.
Some people have had severe brain trauma, or emotional trauma to the point where they've lost the general sense.

so yeah gunny i have to disagree. we are not "just" operating off of cultural cues. the cultures have all (come out of Adam) & coalesced around the same natural inborn tendencies.
Look, do we say that romantic love is just cultural? No. we know that it's universal across culture. INNATE. It's courtship rituals are just expressed differently via different traditions.
Do we say that since not everyone has experience deep romantic feelings, that it's not real? Or not part of most people operating system even if it's not accessed?
God has planted something of a moral compass IN us that most of us can't deny.
We usually just call it a conscience.

Judeo-Christianity is taught to us from birth. Christians take it on faith, AND CALL IT THAT, that Christ is our Savior and through Him we earn eternal salvation. Had we not been taught such, our Worldview would be completely different.

I was taught it and I didn't believe it.
Because i was asked to just take it on BLIND faith. I was a serious agnostic and could take Christianity or leave it along with all the other religions.
it amazed me that people COULD bring themselves to act like it was true.
But I also knew i didn't know everything so i was open to listen to all views.
When I got older i realized there's more to it historically and scientifically than what the simple half read misunderstood bible stories I had dismissed.

Bottom line people can and do change their POVs based on Information and not everyone holds to the worldview they were given when they were raised.

[Gunny]

Well you know that's what a lot of folks use to teach. (after schools got away from the biblical world view)
but there have been studies of Babies... before they can speak.
where they show them a puppet show of one puppet mistreating another. then after the show give the puppets to the child and over and over again the children tries to punish the aggressive puppets.

What are some of the 1st words out of a child's mouth?
after "mine!" it's
"that's not fair!".
they say it with the clear expectation that others know INTUITIVELY exactly what they are talking about.

researchers have gone around the world and looked at most cultures, most cultures understand some version of "right and wrong" and want to paint themselves as right.
like here in the U.S. where abortionist try to paint themselves as helping women. Doing "good".
the moral leaning inside of people is in fact innate. (the expression of it .. as i mentioned in the previous... can be all over the place)
And when it's not there we call that person a psychopath.
If i understand it correctly we don't call them that just because they aren't following cultural norms,
Or even that they aren't generally doing right or wrong themselves.
They know, from watching others, what it means. But they have no real sense of it or guilt themselves.
Some people have had severe brain trauma, or emotional trauma to the point where they've lost the general sense.

so yeah gunny i have to disagree. we are not "just" operating off of cultural cues. the cultures have all (come out of Adam) & coalesced around the same natural inborn tendencies.
Look, do we say that romantic love is just cultural? No. we know that it's universal across culture. INNATE. It's courtship rituals are just expressed differently via different traditions.
Do we say that since not everyone has experience deep romantic feelings, that it's not real? Or not part of most people operating system even if it's not accessed?
God has planted something of a moral compass IN us that most of us can't deny.
We usually just call it a conscience.





I was taught it and I didn't believe it.
Because i was asked to just take it on BLIND faith. I was a serious agnostic and could take Christianity or leave it along with all the other religions.
it amazed me that people COULD bring themselves to act like it was true.
But I also knew i didn't know everything so i was open to listen to all views.
When I got older i realized there's more to it historically and scientifically than what the simple half read misunderstood bible stories I had dismissed.

Bottom line people can and do change their POVs based on Information and not everyone holds to the worldview they were given when they were raised.

If belief was inherent, you would not have free will to choose otherwise.

[AHZ]

No such thing as inner/inherent morality. Morality is what societies determine to be right/wrong, good/bad. We are born knowing only hunger and cold. We do what it takes to survive. If we are born into a society, we learn what we are taught from society in order to survive. Even if we choose later to go against society, our Worldview is STILL based on what it has taught us.

Judeo-Christianity is taught to us from birth. Christians take it on faith, AND CALL IT THAT, that Christ is our Savior and through Him we earn eternal salvation. Had we not been taught such, our Worldview would be completely different.

We're talking about morality being RATIONAL, not necessarily inherent.

chemistry knowledge isnt inherent but it is rational.

cooperation always makes societies stronger. people realize that after repeated interactions with one another.


we can do more cooperatively trusting in the understanding that others won't bludgeon us or rape our wives.



this is completely rational.

denying the rationality of morality keeps people clinging to "might makes right" jackboot ideologies.