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  1. #31
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    Here are 2 fairly old general documentaries, among many ,
    Free on TUBI

    911 the grand deception
    a documentary of a series meetings that took place on the 10th anniversary.
    Put together by a Canadian university profressor that'd worked with David Ray Griffin
    https://tubitv.com/tv-shows/499203/s...deception-pt-1

    9/11: Explosive Evidence - Experts Speak Out
    Documentary put together by the architects and engineers 911 group
    https://tubitv.com/movies/562168/9-1...erts-speak-out

    Been a while since i've watched those so hey I'm sure they'll have Extraneous info, Erroneous info, bits of distractions
    and likely have circumstantial info, so we can probably completely dismiss EVERYTHING in each one.
    Last edited by revelarts; 01-03-2025 at 08:53 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    Honestly i don't like the answer re 9/11. 19 idiots did that much damage and hit the most guarded building on earth. But i believe the answer about what happened is true. I do believe the terrorists on flight 93 dive bombed the plane as opposed to beamer couldn't fly it, it crashed because of a big struggle, etc.
    Didn't say I liked the answer. I assume most Americans don't. We live in a free society and one of the prices of a free society is it is vulnerable to attack. 9-11 was just the tip of the iceberg. The most straight-forward and basal means of attack from an enemy whose minds still live in the 7th century. Everywhere you look the very freedoms our society gives us are being used to attack it. It's a suicide pact that no one wants to say much less address.

    Our intelligence agencies had all the information to prevent 9-11. Two problems with that:

    One, petty, jealous and greedy government bureaucrats more concerned with their individual little fiefdoms.

    Two, to do what it would take to collect and collate that information would ironically step on the other foot of those crying conspiracy and whatnot by allowing intelligence agencies to do their jobs without crying overreach and unconstitutional etc.

    It's a lose - lose deal for the government even at its most competent.

    Moving on to government incompetence .... the government isn't incompetent one minute as it suits one's argument, then the next minute savvy enough to pull off a conspiracy the size of 9-11, especially in the US. It would require a cast of thousands with no one talking and that's just not going to happen no matter who or what gets threatened to be quiet. They can't even keep a pending Supreme Court decision secret.

    All I would have to say to anyone still dwelling over information manipulated to say what conspiracy theorists want it to is: Welcome to 2025. Time to get on with your life that's been stuck on Groundhog Day for 24 years.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Didn't say I liked the answer. I assume most Americans don't. We live in a free society and one of the prices of a free society is it is vulnerable to attack. 9-11 was just the tip of the iceberg. The most straight-forward and basal means of attack from an enemy whose minds still live in the 7th century. Everywhere you look the very freedoms our society gives us are being used to attack it. It's a suicide pact that no one wants to say much less address.

    Our intelligence agencies had all the information to prevent 9-11. Two problems with that:

    One, petty, jealous and greedy government bureaucrats more concerned with their individual little fiefdoms.

    Two, to do what it would take to collect and collate that information would ironically step on the other foot of those crying conspiracy and whatnot by allowing intelligence agencies to do their jobs without crying overreach and unconstitutional etc.

    It's a lose - lose deal for the government even at its most competent.

    Moving on to government incompetence .... the government isn't incompetent one minute as it suits one's argument, then the next minute savvy enough to pull off a conspiracy the size of 9-11, especially in the US. It would require a cast of thousands with no one talking and that's just not going to happen no matter who or what gets threatened to be quiet. They can't even keep a pending Supreme Court decision secret.

    All I would have to say to anyone still dwelling over information manipulated to say what conspiracy theorists want it to is: Welcome to 2025. Time to get on with your life that's been stuck on Groundhog Day for 24 years.
    If the government had planned it the planes would have missed.

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Am i exaggerating to say you've already completely biased yourself with several layers of armor against ANY evidence,
    since if you see any info you dont agree with then it's "suspect".
    So your default from there is to question the source
    & you make negative assumptions that WHATEVER is presented
    WILL BE 5th grade book review level with
    Extraneous info
    Erroneous info
    bits of distractions
    likely circumstantial
    and NOT credible.

    No one's even going to attempt to climb that hill for you FJ.
    if youre interested you should look info up, pro & con.


    But It seems to me youre even More skeptical here than you are about vaccine issues.
    Where you Don't think ANY scientific studies say anything really.
    or
    your looking for only really good studies,
    Recent,
    MULTIPLE,
    Controlled,
    DOUBLE BLINDED,
    Peer Reviewed,
    with a large data sets,
    with the right types of patients.
    from the right prestigious universities,
    preferable in the U.S.,
    & Not associated with any anti-vaxers or those anti-vaxer adjacent
    If not, well then, studies should't really be considered seriously AT ALL, not even to point towards the likelihood of ANYTHING.
    And doctors/specialist/researchers who use studies that don't fit the above criteria to draw conclusions are just blindly speculating.
    NOTHING can be surmised from any study that paints the vaccines negatively.


    BTW, I'm not changing the subject just pointing out your level of incredulity on other issues, since you brought up your assessment of my factual information on other issues.
    Whatever. I don't want to argue with every thought in your head in every thread especially when you pay zero attention to what I say. I'll give evidence the consideration to which it is entitled.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    Been a while since i've watched those so hey I'm sure they'll have Extraneous info, Erroneous info, bits of distractions
    and likely have circumstantial info, so we can probably completely dismiss EVERYTHING in each one.
    You really don't understand how this works do you?
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    If the government had planned it the planes would have missed.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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  10. #37
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    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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  12. #38
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    Last edited by revelarts; 01-04-2025 at 08:36 PM.
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

  13. #39
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    https://www.nist.gov/world-trade-cen...ation#Theories

    Alternate Theories

    28. Why didn't NIST consider a "controlled demolition" hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation like it did for the "pancake theory" hypothesis?

    NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation that included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the WTC towers.
    Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests, and created sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.
    Based on its comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed according to the scenario detailed in the response to Question 11.
    NIST's findings do not support the "pancake theory" of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel "trusses" integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.

    Diagram of the Composite WTC Floor SystemNIST's findings also do not support the "controlled demolition" theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

    • the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;
    • the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

    Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST or by the New York City Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department, or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.
    In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.
    29. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues?

    NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.
    The responses to previous questions demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.
    As for thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited), it burns slowly relative to explosive materials and would require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
    Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.
    30. Why were two distinct spikes—one for each tower—seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?

    The seismic spikes for the collapse of the WTC towers are the result of debris from the collapsing towers impacting the ground. The spikes began approximately 10 seconds after the times for the start of each building's collapse and continued for approximately 15 seconds. There were no seismic signals that occurred prior to the initiation of the collapse of either tower. The seismic record contains no evidence that would indicate explosions occurring prior to the collapse of the towers.
    31. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

    NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NIST NCSTAR 1-5A).
    As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:
    "The structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

    Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass."
    In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.
    From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.
    32. Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

    No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.
    These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar "puffs" were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building.
    33. Why does NIST state that a yellow stream of molten metal seen in some photographs pouring down the side of WTC2 was aluminum from the crashed plane, even though aluminum burns with a white glow?

    NIST reported (NIST NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.
    Photographs, as well as NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.
    NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius (900 degrees Fahrenheit) and 640 degrees Celsius (1,200 degrees Fahrenheit)—depending on the particular alloy—well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius or 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.
    Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.
    34. Why didn't the NIST investigation consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

    NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.
    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    If the government had planned it the planes would have missed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post

    OK... So we should trust the gov't to tell us what medications to take?
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunny View Post
    Didn't say I liked the answer. I assume most Americans don't. We live in a free society and one of the prices of a free society is it is vulnerable to attack. 9-11 was just the tip of the iceberg. The most straight-forward and basal means of attack from an enemy whose minds still live in the 7th century. Everywhere you look the very freedoms our society gives us are being used to attack it. It's a suicide pact that no one wants to say much less address.

    Our intelligence agencies had all the information to prevent 9-11. Two problems with that:

    One, petty, jealous and greedy government bureaucrats more concerned with their individual little fiefdoms.

    Two, to do what it would take to collect and collate that information would ironically step on the other foot of those crying conspiracy and whatnot by allowing intelligence agencies to do their jobs without crying overreach and unconstitutional etc.

    It's a lose - lose deal for the government even at its most competent.

    Moving on to government incompetence .... the government isn't incompetent one minute as it suits one's argument, then the next minute savvy enough to pull off a conspiracy the size of 9-11, especially in the US. It would require a cast of thousands with no one talking and that's just not going to happen no matter who or what gets threatened to be quiet. They can't even keep a pending Supreme Court decision secret.

    All I would have to say to anyone still dwelling over information manipulated to say what conspiracy theorists want it to is: Welcome to 2025. Time to get on with your life that's been stuck on Groundhog Day for 24 years.
    Yeah one of the hijackers got a speeding ticket in Maryland and if FBI and police could have shared information he'd have been arrested as he was wanted by FBI. Not sure it would have thwarted the
    attacks but who knows.

    Now I wonder if we are less safe than on 9/10. Wide open borders and wokism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelarts View Post
    OK... So we should trust the gov't to tell us what medications to take?
    No. I would never say that.

    Y'all seem to think my views line up perfectly with Rev or Gunny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fj1200 View Post
    https://www.nist.gov/world-trade-cen...ation#Theories

    Alternate Theories....

    34. Why didn't the NIST investigation consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

    NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.
    not going to reply point for point here but here's one reply

    https://ic911.org/consensus-panel/co...ts/point-tt-6/

    In summary:

    The NIST reports attributed the collapses to jet fueled fires, which were not hot enough to produce molten steel or iron.
    There was no evidence for molten steel or iron, and there was no reason to expect it.
    Even if there had been molten steel or iron in the debris afterwards, it would have been irrelevant to the cause of the collapses.
    The Best Evidence
    Not one of those claims can be maintained:

    The evidence of molten steel or iron cannot be called “irrelevant,” given the fact that the building fires, as NIST pointed out, cannot explain it. The only explanation NIST suggested was that, if there was molten steel or iron, it would have been “due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile.” But NIST claimed that the buildings were brought down by building fires, which at most could have reached 1,000°C (1,832°F.) So the idea that burning debris from these buildings could have reached anywhere close to the temperature needed to melt structural steel (1,482°C, 2,700°F), [11] without the help of explosive or incendiary material, is implausible. It is also unscientific. Physicist Steven Jones has written: “Are there any examples of buildings toppled by fires or any reason other than deliberate demolition that show large pools of molten metal in the rubble? I have posed this question to numerous engineers and scientists, but so far no examples have emerged. Strange then that three buildings in Manhattan, supposedly brought down finally by fires, all show these large pools of molten metal in their basements post-collapse on 9-11-2001. It would be interesting if underground fires could somehow produce large pools of molten steel, for example, but then there should be historical examples of this effect since there have been many large fires in numerous buildings. It is not enough to argue hypothetically that fires could possibly cause all three pools of orange-hot molten metal.” The fact that the pools of metal had an orange color was crucial, Jones explained, because something had raised the temperature of iron to more than 2,000°C (3,632°F). [12]
    There were two types of evidence for molten steel or iron in the debris:
    Physical evidence, which was presented in a 2002 report by FEMA and elsewhere.
    Testimonial evidence from many credible witnesses, including firefighters and other professionals.
    I. Physical Evidence
    I-A. The 2002 FEMA Report

    New York Times journalist James Glanz, writing near the end of 2001 about the collapse of WTC 7, reported that some engineers said that a “combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down,” but that this “would not explain,” according to Dr. Barnett, “steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures.” [13]

    Glanz was referring to Jonathan Barnett, a professor of fire protection engineering at the Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI). Early in 2002, Barnett and two WPI colleagues published an analysis of a section of steel from one of the Twin Towers, along with sections from WTC 7, as an appendix to FEMA’s 2002 World Trade Center Building Performance Study. [14] Their discoveries were also reported in a WPI article entitled “The ‘Deep Mystery’ of Melted Steel,” which said:
    “[S]teel — which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit [1538°C] — may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon — called a eutectic reaction — occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese.”
    ...
    It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties. The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. James Madison
    Live as free people, yet without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but live at all times as servants of God.
    1 Peter 2:16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    No. I would never say that.

    Y'all seem to think my views line up perfectly with Rev or Gunny.
    Pshaw! Pick a side pansy!!! You're a conspiratorial shill or a government believing hack!!!



    "when socialism fails, blame capitalism and demand more socialism." - A friend
    "You know the difference between libs and right-wingers? Libs STFU when evidence refutes their false beliefs." - Another friend
    “Don't waste your time with explanations: people only hear what they want to hear.” - Paulo Coelho


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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Diamond View Post
    Yeah one of the hijackers got a speeding ticket in Maryland and if FBI and police could have shared information he'd have been arrested as he was wanted by FBI. Not sure it would have thwarted the
    attacks but who knows.

    Now I wonder if we are less safe than on 9/10. Wide open borders and wokism.
    Re: less safe. What's the difference? I said at the time all this TSA BS wasn't going to stop crap. Never say never when it comes to an Arab terrorist, but a blind person can see that the security avenues to repeat the plane performance are closed and closely watched.

    All of the foreigners that took flying lessons had to get authorization from government at some level to do so. The Feds were aware of who they were and what they were doing, just not why. Info was not shared between Federal, state and local government. Had it all been put together and in one place someone (even a dumbass Fed) might have thought it suspicious. That's not mention any preemptive action would have those crying about the results of their crying having hissy fits for depriving poor old Ahab of his "rights".

    THAT is the part that gets me. All the pussies crying their asses off for government to do something, then having a shit fit when they got what they demanded once they saw what it was they were demanding. Nothing like thinking things over beforehand People want to have their cake and eat it too. Reality doesn't work that way.

    You can have your false sense of security or your false sense of freedom, but you can't have both.
    “When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.” Edumnd Burke

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