Red Sea Too Dangerous For Naval Ships

[Gunny]

I don't know that the 'collective' should deal with it. I would hope that Israel, if Iran is foolish enough to go for one more attack, is ready to respond. Hopefully they could take care of it and get Trump off hook for being involved. We'll see.

To answer the flip: A body can do without a limb or two; but the limbs cannot survive without the body.

I agree. But that's not how the Western World rolls. Without consensus, it doesn't move even at the snail's pace it does when it has consensus. I see the Red Sea as an international problem, not a regional one. But the international community is too busy pointing a finger at Israel rather than the root cause of the problem. Again, nobody wants to deal with Iran beyond "sanctions".

My point being on the "flip" is that the international community refuses to point its finger at Hamas, Hezbollah, and or the Houthis and deal with them. Expecting them to deal with an actual nation with a standing army and sophisticated weaponry is unrealistic. We're just repeating parts of the lead-ups to both WWs. In this case, the Chamberlain Effect is in full force.

I now, you know, and every single one of these spineless bureaucrats knows Iran is behind every bit of this. The problem is Iran hasn't attacked anyone that "matters", and has used word salad to play victim. We're talking people that will sit around condemning Israel for collateral damage and call it genocide while turning a blind eye to the groups that commit outright murder.

[NightTrain]

Yea, last I heard it was Iran supporting Russia in Ukraine with additional weapons including drones. Iran has nuclear know how, but not sure Iran needs that.

Right, last I heard Iran was supplying Russia with their drones and other munitions, and Israel just blew those facilities up a few days ago.

It's crazy that Russia has gone from the widely acknowledged 2nd greatest military on earth to being militarily supported by Iran and North Korea, of all places. This from ONE war with a tiny, poorly armed country. No serious person thought this would even be possible 2 years ago, at least none that I've ever heard.

Gunny knows a lot more than I do about these military matters, of course, so I'm very interested in his thoughts as to the Russia threat. In my mind, China is a much more real threat, but they don't seem very interested in ME shenanigans, as long as they get their cheap oil.

[Kathianne]

I agree. But that's not how the Western World rolls. Without consensus, it doesn't move even at the snail's pace it does when it has consensus. I see the Red Sea as an international problem, not a regional one. But the international community is too busy pointing a finger at Israel rather than the root cause of the problem. Again, nobody wants to deal with Iran beyond "sanctions".

My point being on the "flip" is that the international community refuses to point its finger at Hamas, Hezbollah, and or the Houthis and deal with them. Expecting them to deal with an actual nation with a standing army and sophisticated weaponry is unrealistic. We're just repeating parts of the lead-ups to both WWs. In this case, the Chamberlain Effect is in full force.

I now, you know, and every single one of these spineless bureaucrats knows Iran is behind every bit of this. The problem is Iran hasn't attacked anyone that "matters", and has used word salad to play victim. We're talking people that will sit around condemning Israel for collateral damage and call it genocide while turning a blind eye to the groups that commit outright murder.

Maybe I'm wrong, but Israel may not have the privilege of playing "West."

[Gunny]

Iran is the source. Allow and assist Israel to knock the hell out of Iran and this all stops, IMO. ISIS was defeated, so too can the Houthis.

But that all requires strong, reliable leadership and we won't have that for another 2.5 months. I believe most of this will die down after a demonstration that the USN and USAF can easily provide, something along the lines of : 1 missile launched will earn 1 day of air strikes of every known terrorist launch site, weapons depot and equipment storage, with any supporting state actors in the field, and this includes Iranian sites & infrastructure.

They need a taste of the Big Stick that Teddy was fond of talking about.

Let's review. Pointing out what others are doing and their obvious stupidity does NOT make it my stance. I joined the US Marine Corps in 1979 for the express reason of going to war with Iran. I was there and all for it. Carter wasn't.

Do you really think Russia is a factor here? They're recruiting North Koreans to fight in Ukraine, which was unthinkable just 2 years ago - as far as I know, they're 100% committed to that effort and don't have the resources to focus on anything else right now.

At the moment a minor factor. However, Putin appears willing to sell Russia and put it in peril against invisible enemies just to win in Ukraine. Iran is trading with Russia, and selling Russia weapons. I haven't figured out how that works since the one thing Russia has to trade is oil which is the one thing Iran doesn't need. What Iran does need is technologically advanced weaponry. Same goes for that troll in N Korea. Un is trading bodies in hopes of advanced nuclear and missile technology.

Putin has definitely gone off the deep end as far as I'm concerned which makes him more dangerous than he was. His fixation on Ukraine has cost him any over-all strategic objectivity. At the rate he's going through bodies and military materiel, he isn't going to have anything left to defend Russia, if he does now. I'm a big fan of the notion that Pooh is licking his chops at Russian territory as much as anyone else's.

[NightTrain]

Let's review. Pointing out what others are doing and their obvious stupidity does NOT make it my stance. I joined the US Marine Corps in 1979 for the express reason of going to war with Iran. I was there and all for it. Carter wasn't.

I hope you're not thinking I'm attacking you; I'm not. I'm just sitting here in bed banging away on my laptop enjoying my painkillers, sipping coffee and solving the world's problems - for free! Just thinking out loud here. Discussion here is much more rewarding than the inevitable trollfest that happens on FB or Twitter.

At the moment a minor factor. However, Putin appears willing to sell Russia and put it in peril against invisible enemies just to win in Ukraine. Iran is trading with Russia, and selling Russia weapons. I haven't figured out how that works since the one thing Russia has to trade is oil which is the one thing Iran doesn't need. What Iran does need is technologically advanced weaponry. Same goes for that troll in N Korea. Un is trading bodies in hopes of advanced nuclear and missile technology.

Putin has definitely gone off the deep end as far as I'm concerned which makes him more dangerous than he was. His fixation on Ukraine has cost him any over-all strategic objectivity. At the rate he's going through bodies and military materiel, he isn't going to have anything left to defend Russia, if he does now. I'm a big fan of the notion that Pooh is licking his chops at Russian territory as much as anyone else's.

For sure Putin is trading away technology that both Iran and NK should not have. Maybe oil & gas to NK too. I wonder what the exchange rate is on that market? 1 barrel = 1 mobile cannon fodder? I think the only thing NK is rich in is peasants to order to the front lines.

[Gunny]

I hope you're not thinking I'm attacking you; I'm not. I'm just sitting here in bed banging away on my laptop enjoying my painkillers, sipping coffee and solving the world's problems - for free! Just thinking out loud here. Discussion here is much more rewarding than the inevitable trollfest that happens on FB or Twitter.



For sure Putin is trading away technology that both Iran and NK should not have. Maybe oil & gas to NK too. I wonder what the exchange rate is on that market? 1 barrel = 1 mobile cannon fodder? I think the only thing NK is rich in is peasants to order to the front lines.

To further respond:

Will Iran License Produce Russian Su-35 Fighters? Assessing Recent Reports

Russia is hooking Iran up with a license to produce Su-35 fighters, a 5th Gen fighter.

Both NK and Iran are militarily 3rd World, despite NK's nuclear weapons. They have yet to build a delivery system that works. Noting that NK has one missile it can fire that will reach the US mostly notes to me that NK has 1 missile to fire.

Russia arming these nations and/or providing technology draws them into Russia's sphere of influence. Putin is creating a poor man's Warsaw Pact without considering the consequences of arming people like as not to turn on him for feeling insulted.

Meanwhile, as we have sat and watched and are watching, we've allowed this axis alignment to row powerful enough that dealing with them is going to be a thousand times harder than some proactivity could have squelched.

Also bear in mind, while not technologically advanced, N Korea has one of the largest standing armies in the World of over 1M. When it comes down to grinding it out on the ground as is currently happening in Ukraine and Israel, size matters.

[NightTrain]

To further respond:

Will Iran License Produce Russian Su-35 Fighters? Assessing Recent Reports

Russia is hooking Iran up with a license to produce Su-35 fighters, a 5th Gen fighter.

Both NK and Iran are militarily 3rd World, despite NK's nuclear weapons. They have yet to build a delivery system that works. Noting that NK has one missile it can fire that will reach the US mostly notes to me that NK has 1 missile to fire.

Russia arming these nations and/or providing technology draws them into Russia's sphere of influence. Putin is creating a poor man's Warsaw Pact without considering the consequences of arming people like as not to turn on him for feeling insulted.

Meanwhile, as we have sat and watched and are watching, we've allowed this axis alignment to row powerful enough that dealing with them is going to be a thousand times harder than some proactivity could have squelched.

Also bear in mind, while not technologically advanced, N Korea has one of the largest standing armies in the World of over 1M. When it comes down to grinding it out on the ground as is currently happening in Ukraine and Israel, size matters.

I didn't hear about the SU-35 deal. I think all of us would prefer that Iran continue to limp along those 1970s F-14s and MiG-21 beaters. I wonder, though, does Iran have the needed tech savvy to equip those airframes with the avionics? Modern electronics is what makes a decent aircraft a superb one. Stealth combined with BVR capability is the latest craze.

I have to object to the author's label here - 5th Gen would be F-22 or F-35 peer and to my knowledge, only China has fielded something even close to our 5th Gen with the J-20. Last year we had some US Navy F-35s meet some J-20s over the South China Sea and supposedly they are a joke in comparison with regard to actual stealth. They lit up on the F-35s screens like a C-130. The Chinese and Russians stole the looks of a Stealth Fighter, but there's much more to it than looks - it's electronics, heat signature and materials, something that isn't easily copied.

Russia's SU-57 Felon is not 5th Gen, despite what Putin claims. It's about as stealthy as an F-15EX, and that's not saying much. Pakistan walked away after seeing the real RCS numbers as opposed to what was claimed - Putin loves to oversell his gear and that was an embarrassment to him. The Felon still hasn't made an appearance in Ukraine for fear of it being blasted out of the sky - which is a very valid concern now that F-16s are buzzing around wanting to play.

Hopefully Putin is screwing the Iranians over and giving them an airframe that they can't outfit properly or have the backup systems to make it lethal... kind of like handing an M1A1 Abrahms to a tribe in the Amazon and expect them to make use of it.

[Gunny]

I didn't hear about the SU-35 deal. I think all of us would prefer that Iran continue to limp along those 1970s F-14s and MiG-21 beaters. I wonder, though, does Iran have the needed tech savvy to equip those airframes with the avionics? Modern electronics is what makes a decent aircraft a superb one. Stealth combined with BVR capability is the latest craze.

I have to object to the author's label here - 5th Gen would be F-22 or F-35 peer and to my knowledge, only China has fielded something even close to our 5th Gen with the J-20. Last year we had some US Navy F-35s meet some J-20s over the South China Sea and supposedly they are a joke in comparison with regard to actual stealth. They lit up on the F-35s screens like a C-130. The Chinese and Russians stole the looks of a Stealth Fighter, but there's much more to it than looks - it's electronics, heat signature and materials, something that isn't easily copied.

Russia's SU-57 Felon is not 5th Gen, despite what Putin claims. It's about as stealthy as an F-15EX, and that's not saying much. Pakistan walked away after seeing the real RCS numbers as opposed to what was claimed - Putin loves to oversell his gear and that was an embarrassment to him. The Felon still hasn't made an appearance in Ukraine for fear of it being blasted out of the sky - which is a very valid concern now that F-16s are buzzing around wanting to play.

Hopefully Putin is screwing the Iranians over and giving them an airframe that they can't outfit properly or have the backup systems to make it lethal... kind of like handing an M1A1 Abrahms to a tribe in the Amazon and expect them to make use of it.

I was more speaking to the increased cooperation than the capabilities of the Su-35. As you point out, Iran is still flying F-14s. The Su-35 is a step up. Iran needs to be kept in the Stone Age until their minds come out of it with their bodies. The air defense systems Israel knocked out were Russian as well. Iran has a pilot "school" in Russia.

I'm not sure what production capability Iran has, but there again, have to look at Russia simply because Russia will do business with Iran. Not sure if raw materials are as much of a problem for Russia as manpower.

The fact that Putin has cozied up to that psychopath in NK is proof he'll do business with anyone. He's also got his little enclave in Syria keeping his useful puppet Assad afloat.

I think Russia, China and Iran are all eyeing their so-far loose relationship with each figuring on coming out ahead of the others. Un is just in if for pats on the head and scraps

[Gunny]

It appears not many are impressed by Russia 4th++ Gen fighter Russia tries to pass off as 5th Gen. An interesting article.

I can see Putin trying to appeal to a country still flying F-14s (IIRC, Iran still has a couple of f-4 Phantom II's in its inventory ). Not seeing the point to trying to sell it to China.

Russia's Su-57 Felon Would Have a 'Rough Time' Attacking an F-35 Stealth Fighrter

[NightTrain]

It appears not many are impressed by Russia 4th++ Gen fighter Russia tries to pass off as 5th Gen. An interesting article.

I can see Putin trying to appeal to a country still flying F-14s (IIRC, Iran still has a couple of f-4 Phantom II's in its inventory ). Not seeing the point to trying to sell it to China.

Russia's Su-57 Felon Would Have a 'Rough Time' Attacking an F-35 Stealth Fighrter

What was puzzling to everyone watching the Ukraine conflict unfold is how the Felon never made an appearance, while SU-30 and SU-35s were being used daily to lob their version of the JDAM across the front lines to hit high-value targets. If you had a totally stealthy missile truck impervious to being detected, why on earth wouldn't you use it? In the meantime, the 30s and 35s were being nailed with increasing frequency as Ukraine snuck a Patriot system forward toward the front lines and waited, fired and hauled ass somewhere else to do it again - classic 'shoot and scoot' tactics.

Ukraine only has 3 or 4 Patriot systems, each worth over a billion dollars that's been taking out any and all intruders in their airspace - including Putin's 'hypersonic' missile that he bragged could take out American cities - so if there was ever a target worthy of risking your invincible steath fighter, it would be these. And yet, there's still no appearance in theatre.

It quickly became clear to everyone that the Felon was a hoax, similar to the T-90 tank that was also smoke and mirrors. It looks kinda cool, but it lacks in all departments where it counts... I think it's a dressed up old school MiG.

[Kathianne]

and...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitic...ran-retaliates

US Warns Tehran It Will Not Restrain Israel If Iran RetaliatesTyler Durden's Photo
by Tyler Durden
Sunday, Nov 03, 2024 - 02:55 PM


Iran has kept up its saber-rattling in the wake of last week's Israeli aerial attack, which itself was the much anticipated response to the Iranian ballistic missile attack of October 1st. Washington is now warning Tehran that it "won't be able to hold Israel back" if the Islamic Republic retaliates, US and Israeli officials told Axios Saturday.


"We told the Iranians: We won't be able to hold Israel back, and we won't be able to make sure that the next attack will be calibrated and targeted as the previous one," the US official said.

...

[Gunny]

What was puzzling to everyone watching the Ukraine conflict unfold is how the Felon never made an appearance, while SU-30 and SU-35s were being used daily to lob their version of the JDAM across the front lines to hit high-value targets. If you had a totally stealthy missile truck impervious to being detected, why on earth wouldn't you use it? In the meantime, the 30s and 35s were being nailed with increasing frequency as Ukraine snuck a Patriot system forward toward the front lines and waited, fired and hauled ass somewhere else to do it again - classic 'shoot and scoot' tactics.

Ukraine only has 3 or 4 Patriot systems, each worth over a billion dollars that's been taking out any and all intruders in their airspace - including Putin's 'hypersonic' missile that he bragged could take out American cities - so if there was ever a target worthy of risking your invincible steath fighter, it would be these. And yet, there's still no appearance in theatre.

It quickly became clear to everyone that the Felon was a hoax, similar to the T-90 tank that was also smoke and mirrors. It looks kinda cool, but it lacks in all departments where it counts... I think it's a dressed up old school MiG.

Russia uses air power like artillery. Always have. The concept of strategic combined arms has been and apparently still is above their conceptual level. Its war in Ukraine is what it is as a direct result of that mentality. They appear more afraid of getting one shot down than using them in combat. There basically is no air war in Ukraine which is completely to Ukraine's advantage and keeping them in the game.

What one speculates on next is Putin's reaction to his faux Gen 5 plane becoming the butt on social media ridicule since being put on display given he's another one of those Asian types where face means everything. Send all his jet techs to the front in Ukraine?