Arctic Ice Growing?

[mundame]

Actually my only claim here is that the northern ice cap is melting.






OK. Now could you please explain how any of that changes the fact that the northern ice cap is, overall, melting?

Oh, hey, do you think the northern ice cap is melting?

Most of us here don't, but you can believe that if you want: your difficulty is going to be persuading anyone else of this belief, I suspect.

Reminds me of all the people who say that the northern ice cap is melting!!! and so all these places on the shore are rapidly submerging and everyone will drown or at least have to move their homes miles inland!

However, I have lived near the Chesapeake for 30 years and the same state park picnic tables are in the same place by the road that runs by the Bay as ever, at least as of 6 PM yesterday evening. They aren't submerged; the Bay hasn't risen an inch; the tables don't even have damp feet.


So the northern ice cap is not melting.

Even if it were, it would hardly be our fault.

[Gaffer]

Actually my only claim here is that the northern ice cap is melting.






OK. Now could you please explain how any of that changes the fact that the northern ice cap is, overall, melting?

So what? Ice melts. In winter it gets replaced with more ice. It's August and there is still ice in the arctic. All the ice in the arctic is not going to melt in spite of what the pseudo-scientists say.

[eighballsidepocket]

Actually my only claim here is that the northern ice cap is melting.

OK. Now could you please explain how any of that changes the fact that the northern ice cap is, overall, melting?

Ok.......So it's melting faster than it's building up........Whats the fuss. It's cyclical if you study earths history on a grand scale.......not the last 50 years.

Here's the corker.......you know and I know that you are trying real hard to tie "mankind" and especially America to this whole melting ice cap scenario.

How about you answer a question for the board. What precipitated the last mini-ice age? Man was spewing pollutants into the atmosphere during and before the mini-ice age. Massive unchecked forest fires ravaged and burned on the North American continent unchecked and unstopped for months during Summers that dwarf the size of the massive wildfires that we have nowadays. Just think of all the carbon based pollutants that were spewed into the atmosphere a thousand years ago from just the massive prairie and forest wildfires that burned and burned for days and months until a massive rainstorm put them out.

One of the reasons that the great Yellowstone fire happened was that poor forest management, allowed undergrowth to grow because small low level fires weren't allowed to burn off this low level stuff. As a result, a massive portion of Yellowstone is burned to a crisp and it will take generations before it grows back.

Never the less, ice caps melt, glaciers recede during periods, then they proceed forward........Weather patterns change do to El Nino and La Nina effects...........

Mean Ocean water temperatures have massive scale affects on our weather...........It's cyclical.

The bottom line is this again..........You know it, the board knows it...........You want to tie a man-caused affect to the cap melt. Man just has to be doing it.

The bible says that we are to be care takers of this planet. We do good and very bad jobs of it. Currently, for such a massive industrialized nation as we are (America), we are doing an incredible job, when you consider the other rising industrial nations of the world. Gross pollution index is dwarf in size compared to other nations, yet a certain element of our population wants to pin blame on certain in-power people of a certain party, that they disagree with on philosophical terms. Sadly they use any tactic and don't hesitate to use guilt by association to unseat them.

The guilt by association bit, is branding the party in power in the executive with arctic cap melting.........I think the American electorate is starting to tire of this blame the one's in power for everything from West Nile fever to Acne.

In fact a recent poll this morning on Yahoo news wire indicated that a majority of the American electorate are tiring of hearing about B. Obama news. In other words the media's love fest with B.O. is finally hitting a saturation point with the citizenry. It's become overt and obvious to the American people that our 4th branch of government the mainstream media isn't fooling us as much as their motives are suspect.
*******
So if your right, and good science says the Arctic caps are melting, then that's what's happening........The Arctic Caps have melted before.

Just recently on the science news, evidence of a much warmer climate in the Antarctic was discovered. They have found frozen moss that is 14 million years old, and also insects and seeds too. One type of seed was beech tree seeds! So here we go again.......14 million years ago, when man hardly was having an industrial revolution of burning millions of tons of coal worldwide and causing an alleged green house gas affect, we had the Antarctic continent in a climate range not unlike parts of tundra-covered Alaska and the Northern Yukon.

Now could you explain why the Antarctic was much warmer and had much less ice than even nowadays, and supported plant and insect life, as it cannot presently? You must rule-out man caused warming.

[MtnBiker]

From NOAA regarding ice;http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/essay_wadhams.html

Sea ice occupies about 7% of the area of the world ocean, and is of enormous importance climatically because it reflects most of the solar radiation that falls on it, affecting the average albedo of the earth, and also because it interposes a solid layer between the ocean and the atmosphere which reduces the free transfer of heat and moisture between the two. Observational evidence at the moment tells us that the sea ice in the Arctic (although not in the Antarctic) is retreating and thinning, and computer models predict that by the 2080s the ice cover will completely disappear in summer, so it is important for us to understand the mechanisms by which sea ice forms and decays.

Then were several link options for other articles, one that contains this;

http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/essay_untersteiner.html

Both the shrinking and thinning of the arctic sea ice cover appear to be in keeping with the poleward amplification of the global warming induced by increased greenhouse loading of the atmosphere and predicted by interactive climate models. Recent computations (e.g. Vinnikov, 1999) closely duplicate the observed reduction of the mean annual ice extent. However, closer inspection reveals a disturbing discrepancy: models show impacts in winter and observations show ice retreat in summer. As we expect from basic physical reasoning, the largest effects of greenhouse warming should be seen in the absence of solar radiation when thermal infrared radiation dominates the surface energy balance, i.e. in winter. The calculations by Vinnikov et al. (1999) and Manabe et al. (1992) indeed show the largest sea ice signal in winter. An explanation of this summer/winter discrepancy has not been offered so far. The absence and presence of sea ice, and its thickness, depend on very small differences between large fluxes of energy. Minor changes of the assumptions about surface albedo, snow cover, cloudiness and cloud radiative properties, ocean heat flux, and other factors, may have large effects on the computed ice cover and require a model precision that remains to be attained.

hmmmmmm??????

Well anyway, ice growth and ice melt, what are the factors? Solar radiation, water currents, wind, cloud cover, water salinaty, temperature, even subsurface volcanic activity and others. Alot to think about and consider.

One thing we know, Nancy Pelosi understands all of this perfectly and she is trying to save the planet, its a good thing we have her to guide us with her unquestionable scientific leadership.

[mundame]

The guilt by association bit, is branding the party in power in the executive with arctic cap melting.........I think the American electorate is starting to tire of this blame the one's in power for everything from West Nile fever to Acne.

Very good.

[SpidermanTUba]

Oh, hey, do you think the northern ice cap is melting?

Most of us here don't, but you can believe that if you want: your difficulty is going to be persuading anyone else of this belief, I suspect.

It doesn't matter what you believe, its an observed fact. You can't wish it away.

However, I have lived near the Chesapeake for 30 years and the same state park picnic tables are in the same place by the road that runs by the Bay as ever, at least as of 6 PM yesterday evening. They aren't submerged; the Bay hasn't risen an inch; the tables don't even have damp feet.

I wouldn't recommend using a picnic table as a tide gauge. For one thing, a tide gauge doesn't really work unless part of it is actually in the water. For another thing, its a picnic table, not a tide gauge.

Measurements using an actual tide gauge in the Chesapeake Bay reveals that the level in the bay has been rising, on average, about 3 mm a year.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs102-98/fig6.gif

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs102-98/

So the northern ice cap is not melting.

I'm not sure how you can conclude that the entire northern ice cap isn't melting because the Chesapeake bay hasn't risen enough to submerge entire picnic tables, especially given the observed fact that it is indeed melting.

[SpidermanTUba]

So what? Ice melts. In winter it gets replaced with more ice. It's August and there is still ice in the arctic. All the ice in the arctic is not going to melt in spite of what the pseudo-scientists say.

Its melting year to year as well.

[SpidermanTUba]

Ok.......So it's melting faster than it's building up........

Ok. We agree then. Why are you still arguing with me?

Here's the corker.......you know and I know that you are trying real hard to tie "mankind" and especially America to this whole melting ice cap scenario.

Where do I try to do this? Link please?

[Nukeman]

Ok. We agree then. Why are you still arguing with me?



Where do I try to do this? Link please?

How about the following whole freaking thread. You have an agenda and your being put in your place you just refuse to see it.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=5957

Through out this whole thread YOU propose that every climactic change is anthropogenic in its origins.

So tell me mister wizard WHY do you think WE put those ideas in your thoughts on this thread????

Maybe because YOU sound like a broken record. You rehash the same themes over and over!!!!

[SpidermanTUba]

How about the following whole freaking thread. You have an agenda and your being put in your place you just refuse to see it.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=5957

What about that thread? Where in it do I claim the northern ice cap is melting as a result of anthropogenic activities? And what does that thread have to do with this one?

Through out this whole thread YOU propose that every climactic change is anthropogenic in its origins.

So tell me mister wizard WHY do you think WE put those ideas in your thoughts on this thread????

Maybe because YOU sound like a broken record. You rehash the same themes over and over!!!!

How does any of this change the fact that the northern ice cap is melting?

[Nukeman]

What about that thread? Where in it do I claim the northern ice cap is melting as a result of anthropogenic activities? And what does that thread have to do with this one?



How does any of this change the fact that the northern ice cap is melting?

Than WHY do YOU care if it is melting. There is NOTHING we can do about it right?????

[crin63]

No matter what happens the global warming alarmists are going to claim its caused by global warming. If the ice is melting its global warming, if the ice grows its global warming, if it stays the same its global warming, if it rains more its global warming, if theres a drought its global warming.......

No matter what happens it will be caused by global warming because they have already invested to much personal credibility into it for them to admit they're wrong just like evolution. No amount of evidence is going to change their minds because it will be to costly to retreat now.

[eighballsidepocket]

No matter what happens the global warming alarmists are going to claim its caused by global warming. If the ice is melting its global warming, if the ice grows its global warming, if it stays the same its global warming, if it rains more its global warming, if theres a drought its global warming.......

No matter what happens it will be caused by global warming because they have already invested to much personal credibility into it for them to admit they're wrong just like evolution. No amount of evidence is going to change their minds because it will be to costly to retreat now.

Exactly! They indeed have put too much personal credibility into it, and they can't back-down from their bad science reasoning, that is inter-twined with politicizing this alleged Global Warming into a campaign intended to sieze the White House, Congress, etc...

As "Tuba" cries that he isn't saying man did it, yet he keeps wanting everyone to know about it, and wring our hands, and find a "scapegoat".

We've wrung our hands trying to give plausible answers to "Tuba", that it is just natural cyclical Earth stuff that has been going for millions of years meteorologically, but he/Tuba doesn't seem to see or read our explanations. He wants one that blames mankind, and more specifically America, and more specifically anything connected to a conservative governmental leadership.

Does he admit an agenda........No.......Does everything Tuba write reek of agenda? Yes!

This is your typical liberal, covert, thread that is all concerned about melting ice caps, but is actually a covert way of starting a "flame" against conservatives, America, and the present executive administration. This is just a small example of what is happening on a larger scale throughout this country by a certain political party.

It's so sad that so many people have latched onto such bad science and are politicizing it to further their motives or desires. The feign concern for the environment.......Yeah, really.......They hope that sea level will flood Los Angeles and New York so they can have their way/adminstration in power.

I'm not really totally convinced that Global Warming isn't happening, but why should it be connected to mankind......when it has been happening on and off for millions of years without man's interference?

[eighballsidepocket]

It doesn't matter what you believe, its an observed fact. You can't wish it away.




I wouldn't recommend using a picnic table as a tide gauge. For one thing, a tide gauge doesn't really work unless part of it is actually in the water. For another thing, its a picnic table, not a tide gauge.

Measurements using an actual tide gauge in the Chesapeake Bay reveals that the level in the bay has been rising, on average, about 3 mm a year.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs102-98/fig6.gif

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs102-98/



I'm not sure how you can conclude that the entire northern ice cap isn't melting because the Chesapeake bay hasn't risen enough to submerge entire picnic tables, especially given the observed fact that it is indeed melting.

Right there with the picnic table explanation, you've resorted to bad reasoning/bad science. That picnic table example is simple, that even a layman in the area of science could understand the observation made by that person.

Obviously, the picnic tables haven't changed their elevation in respect to sea level, so I would say that this is a very good way to measure any changes over a span of time. You refute it, cause you don't want it to give these results. If someone came on and said that their picnic ground was being flooded more and more and now their picnic tables were often under water, you know and I know that you'd jump on that reply with gusto as an example.

Good science looks at and observes without bias, and then concludes. Sadly, many scientists are infected with political bias, and anti-mankind agenda's. Afterall they were often educated in the same universities that spawned political activisim bordering on Marxism/Leninism.

Your responses remind me of a person with their fingers in their ears, yelling, "I don't want to hear this!".

Your responses don't connect with the evidence given to you. You respond to common sense explanations as though you didn't comprehend, or don't want to comprehend. You are trying so very-hard to ignore common sense, and keep pushing for a "scape goat" or someone or group to blame, and you and I know who that is, don't we?

[SpidermanTUba]

Than WHY do YOU care if it is melting.

Hobit said it wasn't. He was wrong, so I corrected him.