Toward understanding Islam

[gabosaurus]

I attended a very intriguing program tonight. It was presented by a couple that travels about trying to clear up misconceptions about Islam. The tenets of "militant Islam" are a lot different than that of conventional modern Islam.
Some basic things are the same. There were separate programs (at separate sites) for men and women. Those attending the women's program faced some dress restrictions (long pants and long sleeve shirts, no makeup or jewelry, no perfumes). Burkas were not required. :)

The first fallacy that was dispelled was that Muslims wanted to take over the world. The truth is, the Muslims only want control of areas that were originally occupied. The sticking point is, they don't want to yield any control to non-Muslims. Any American/Western presence in the Middle East fuels hatred. Muslims do not want to settle in the U.S., which they consider "unclean."

I thought I understood Islam to a degree. I was totally wrong. Islam is not merely a religion. It is the essence of Muslim life itself. Allah and his prophet, Mohammad, are held in such reverence that they can only be mentioned in a certain way. The prophet can not be represented or alluded to in any physical way whatsoever. Because the prophet is a holy spirit, depicting him in any other way is considered a supreme sacrilege.
The reason for the extreme lifestyle limitations is that physical life is considered one long test to see if a person is deemed worthy of the Eternal Kingdom. Which is why men are treated one way and women are treated in a different way. It is not really that much different than various early cultures, when women were considered "property" and often treated worse than work animals.

One huge difference between conventional Muslims and militant Muslims is their interpretations of The Koran in regards to martyrdom and the afterlife. Militant Muslims believe suicide bombings and missions make you a martyr and guarantee a place in Heaven. The way conventional Muslims interpret it, suicide is the ultimate act of cowardice. This is where the "47 virgins" thing came from. Mohammad was supposed to have said something to the effect of "Let those who disassemble themselves be carved into 47 pieces and left for the vagrants, for they are not suitable for the Kingdom."

Yes, this way way too long for many of you. But if you wish to understand your enemy, you might seek further.

[diuretic]

It's irrational. But then religion is irrational. Any and all of them.

[Yurt]

There is no such thing as a militant and non militant muslim. All are required to commit jihad. Some are required to kill, some are required merely to infiltrate. Islam's goal is to subjugate the entire will under the boot of Islam.

It never ceases to amaze me this whitewhat BS that some people listen to about Islam. Its like, if you guys feel that Islam is okey dokey, then all the problems in the world must be someone's else's fault, eg., not Islam or muslims.

Waht is further astounding is that you post this ill informed stuff without any quotes from the Quran or Hadith. I have this awesome island in the atlanic I want to sell you, sure thing. Take my word for it.

[gabosaurus]

Those who don't understand, hate.

[stephanie]

Well gee...it only took four post before we were all accused of being haters..cause we are all not so enlightened as the oh so enlightened ones...:cheers2::laugh2:

your right...I don't understand Islam...but from what I've seen of the religion and how they treat their women today in the 21'st century...I am against it...

And here we have our so called feminist of today(who made a big deal of burning their bras back in the 70's saying they were no longer going to be subjugated by MEN..) making excuses for this...If it's so tolerably...then you should live it all the time, instead of telling us who don't agree with that we are the haters..

Just because you lived it for a weekend and then go back to your privileged life in San. Francisco doesn't make you someone who can go around accusing others of being hateful..

Get back to me when you bow down and live the life full time...then I'll take you seriously...

But of course...we know you would never subject yourself yourself except that it only took a weekend out you life....But since you did this....you are now a enlightened person who can cast your hate and disgust on everyone else....Welcome to the real world my dear....you are BUSTED...AS A FAKE.....and we have to put up with people like you everyday.............

[glockmail]

....

The first fallacy that was dispelled was that Muslims wanted to take over the world. The truth is, the Muslims only want control of areas that were originally occupied. .....

Bullshit. Their religion was created out of nothing. How do you explain their repeated incursions into Europe?

[Gaffer]

Gaby attended a propaganda forum held by islamists and dhimmi's, and she is one. I have looked into islam. I study it to know my enemy, which is islam. As for the muslims wanting to take back what is theirs. They want to take back what they had previously conquered and more.

It's interesting that conservatives are all liars and to be hated by Gaby, but islamists are to be tolerated and understood. Gaby, women are second class citizens in islam. The first step is exactly what happened there. The men and women were segregated. The women were told how to dress. You were given bits an pieces of the koran designed to make it all appear peaceful and wrongly interpreted by the radicals. islam used deceit as well as violence to conquer. That too is in the koran.

Your not studying islam, your learning to be a dhimmi.

[darin]

The first fallacy that was dispelled was that Muslims wanted to take over the world. The truth is, the Muslims only want control of areas that were originally occupied.



As-Sabiqun is an Islamic movement that believes in the Islamic State of North America no later than 2050. Those who engage in this great effort require a high level of commitment and determination. We are sending out a call to the believers: Join with us in this great struggle to change the world!
:ali: (http://www.sabiqun.net/join.html)



(shrug)

[Sir Evil]

Yes, this way way too long for many of you. But if you wish to understand your enemy, you might seek further.

Superb! go join them, and then bring back a full understanding for all of us. :rolleyes:

[Hagbard Celine]

Bullshit. Their religion was created out of nothing. How do you explain their repeated incursions into Europe?

Do you support Mitt Romney? His religion was created out of nothing too. :dunno: Their incursions into Europe are the same as Europe's incursions into the Middle East--a struggle for territory. Why the double standard?

[Gaffer]

Do you support Mitt Romney? His religion was created out of nothing too. :dunno: Their incursions into Europe are the same as Europe's incursions into the Middle East--a struggle for territory. Why the double standard?

Romney's religion is as created as the muslims religion. The difference is one is a religion of peace and the other is a religion of war.

Europeans went into the ME after finally driving the muslims back out of Europe. Territory was not the objective. Capturing Jerusalem was a religious goal more than a territorial one. And the muslims didn't make incurtions into erurope, They were conquering the territory for islam. Where ever they went, they stayed and declared it part of the caliphate.

[manu1959]

Do you support Mitt Romney? His religion was created out of nothing too. :dunno: Their incursions into Europe are the same as Europe's incursions into the Middle East--a struggle for territory. Why the double standard?

visit the vatican then visit mecca then come back and tell me.....

[Hagbard Celine]

visit the vatican then visit mecca then come back and tell me.....

Romney isn't Catholic Manu.

[manu1959]

Muslims do not want to settle in the U.S., which they consider "unclean."



ya right....

so the people you met last night don't live here?....

why are their muslim churches in the US or anywhere except the middle east if everything is unclean....

[darin]

It's kinda like somebody being an apologist for "cancer".

"The cancerous cells only want to LIVE! They only want to keep to themselves, as they live in the liver. We should seek to UNDERSTAND cancer, and find out it's needs!"

:-/

[retiredman]

I think that there is a definite difference between most muslims and the radicale extremist muslims who wish us harm.

Lumping them all together and distrusting and despising the lot is really no different than saying "all niggers look alike".

It is an attitude borne of fear and ignorance and intolerance.

But you all can certainly rationalize it to your heart's content!:laugh2:

[hjmick]

I attended a very intriguing program tonight. It was presented by a couple that travels about trying to clear up misconceptions about Islam. The tenets of "militant Islam" are a lot different than that of conventional modern Islam.

There are differences, but just a few.


Some basic things are the same. There were separate programs (at separate sites) for men and women. Those attending the women's program faced some dress restrictions (long pants and long sleeve shirts, no makeup or jewelry, no perfumes). Burkas were not required. :)

Really? Restrictions? Adults, in America, forced to dress a certain way if they wished to attend? Sounds repressive to me.


The first fallacy that was dispelled was that Muslims wanted to take over the world. The truth is, the Muslims only want control of areas that were originally occupied. The sticking point is, they don't want to yield any control to non-Muslims. Any American/Western presence in the Middle East fuels hatred. Muslims do not want to settle in the U.S., which they consider "unclean."

The truth, as it was told to you by a Muslim trying to gain acceptance of his/her religion. I see. So we are expected to believe their intentions are pure? I was told by a Muslim friend of mine that true peace would be achieved on Earth only when all people were Muslims. He also explained to me that the goal of any true Muslim to convert, by many means, all non-belivers to Islam. Do you think that could include being decietful about their intentions? He's no terrorist, very reasonable, and seems tolerant of my lack of religion (except on the days he's doing his Islamic duty and trying to convert me), in other words, he would probably be considered moderate. My Lebanese Christian friends will tell you stories about their life in Lebanon that would curl your toes and make your sphincter pucker, nearly all having to do with their relations with Muslim neighbors.


I thought I understood Islam to a degree.

That's what you get for thinking. ;) Trust me when I tell you that you still don't understand Islam. Very few, if any of us, understand it and likely never will. Our best bet is to get information from both sides and reach our own conclusions.


I was totally wrong.

Not the first time, probably not the last. ;)


Islam is not merely a religion. It is the essence of Muslim life itself.

There are many aspects of Islam that are good, even appealing, but the same can be said of Catholicism, Taoism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, and many of the other -isms.


Allah and his prophet, Mohammad, are held in such reverence that they can only be mentioned in a certain way. The prophet can not be represented or alluded to in any physical way whatsoever. Because the prophet is a holy spirit, depicting him in any other way is considered a supreme sacrilege.

This is problematic at best in a free society. This belief alone makes Islam incompatible with democratic countries who hold free speech dear. This means that either Islam must change, or free speech must suffer. Which do think would be best?


The reason for the extreme lifestyle limitations is that physical life is considered one long test to see if a person is deemed worthy of the Eternal Kingdom. Which is why men are treated one way and women are treated in a different way. It is not really that much different than various early cultures, when women were considered "property" and often treated worse than work animals.

There is absolutely no excuse, religious or otherwise, that justifies treating a woman as less than human, less than an equal.


One huge difference between conventional Muslims and militant Muslims is their interpretations of The Koran in regards to martyrdom and the afterlife. Militant Muslims believe suicide bombings and missions make you a martyr and guarantee a place in Heaven. The way conventional Muslims interpret it, suicide is the ultimate act of cowardice. This is where the "47 virgins" thing came from. Mohammad was supposed to have said something to the effect of "Let those who disassemble themselves be carved into 47 pieces and left for the vagrants, for they are not suitable for the Kingdom."

The real difference is in how the two, moderate and militant, use the Koran to reach the same ends. One interprets it in a manner that allows them to go forth in a violent quest to kill or convert the infidels while the moderates seek to do so through a reasoned voice and benign efforts.


Yes, this way way too long for many of you. But if you wish to understand your enemy, you might seek further.

Yes, we're all just a bunch of ignorant rednecks. We only know what can be read during the average crap, and then only if there are pictures.


Those who don't understand, hate.

Oh yes, the hate card. So easy, isn't it? Those who don't agree with you, doubt your conclusions, they must be haters.

Well, not me. I'm an Agnostic. I have conservative leanings. I also have friends who are Atheists, Catholics, Protestants, one of my daughters is a Methodist, my wife a Lutheran. I have Jewish friends, Muslim, Buddhist, Seikh, and Hindu friends. Most of my family are Catholic. I have friends from Lebanon, Guatemala, Mexico, England, Australia, Vietnam, Japan, Africa, Israel, China, the Philippines, and Iran.

No, I don't hate anyone, even those with whom I disagree. It's just not worth the energy. I've got better things to do than hate someone.

[gabosaurus]

Obviously, you don't understand. If there is more than one interpretation of the Christian Bible (hence the different religions and their varying views), why can't there be more than one interpretation of the Koran?

Only taking into account the hardline terrorist view of Islam is like making the Westboro Church the only representative of American Christianity. You have to accept that different sects believe different things. This is why Iraq is in Civil War -- different views of Islam.

I never said I wanted to accept Islam. I merely wish to understand it. The dress policy was merely respecting other people's wishes in their "homes."

Islam is NOT a tolerant religion. You have to accept that. At the same time, you can't take one extreme view and use it as a blanket stereotype of everyone.
For every militant Muslim that wants to kill all Americans, there are scores that just want to live peacefully. But you don't want to hear that. Just as you don't want to accept that there are decent Mexicans, blacks and other minorities.

Like I said before --- those who don't understand, hate.

[darin]

It's very interesting when people resort to "You don't understand!!" when their own viewpoint is shown to be flawed.

[gabosaurus]

It's also interesting when people whose alleged understanding is flawed try to bully others into accepting their viewpoints.
You should stick to your own area of expertise, which is how to kill people. Leave the understanding to others.

[darin]

GAWD do you see the IRONY? You're defending a faith which THRIVES on 'Join us or Die!'.

[hjmick]

I assume this was directed towards me:


Obviously, you don't understand. If there is more than one interpretation of the Christian Bible (hence the different religions and their varying views), why can't there be more than one interpretation of the Koran?

I do understand. It would seem as if you do not.

Is it not, despite the different interpretations of the Bible, the goal of Christians to spread their faith? To convert others? It is the same with Islam. Despite their different intepretations, the goal of both moderate and militant Muslims, Sunni and Shia, is to spread the faith, convert the infidels.


Only taking into account the hardline terrorist view of Islam is like making the Westboro Church the only representative of American Christianity. You have to accept that different sects believe different things. This is why Iraq is in Civil War -- different views of Islam.

I accept this, I really do. I have no problem with this concept what so ever.


I never said I wanted to accept Islam. I merely wish to understand it. The dress policy was merely respecting other people's wishes in their "homes."

I get the need to understand, but unless we live the religion, we will never fully understand. As for the dress code, I get it, my comment was more tongue in cheek than serious. But it doe still seem repressive, unless of course this event really did take place in someone's home or perhaps a mosque.


Islam is NOT a tolerant religion. You have to accept that.

Actually, no, I don't. If they choose to practice in the U.S., they must conform to U.S. laws, not Sharia . They must be tolerant of other faiths. They must accept that in the U.S. we have freedom of speech and if an artist wishes to depict Mohammed on canvas or in a cartoon, they can not murder said artist or riot in the streets destroying property and chanting death to whoever.


At the same time, you can't take one extreme view and use it as a blanket stereotype of everyone.

I don't stereotype anyone, as I stated, I have friends from all over the religious spectrum.


For every militant Muslim that wants to kill all Americans, there are scores that just want to live peacefully.But you don't want to hear that.

I don't have to hear it, I know it. From personal experience. I have another Muslim friend who feels this way, and he'll be the first to tell you that other Muslims will not and do not consider him a "true" Muslim.


Just as you don't want to accept that there are decent Mexicans, blacks and other minorities.

Again, you are wrong. Flat out wrong. I work with "Mexicans, blacks and other minorities" everyday, they are all decent, hardworking people whom I respect. I have friends who are "Mexicans, blacks and other minorities," They are all decent, hardworking people whom I respect.


Like I said before --- those who don't understand, hate.

In my experience, people who don't understand, fear. Not hate.


By the way, did the speaker discuss the Muslim tradition of "honor" killings?


Father killed daughter for not wearing hijab, her friends say
Dec 11 12:56 PM US/Eastern

Muslim Man Kills Daughter For Not Wearing Hijab

Friends and classmates of a 16-year-old girl who police say was murdered by her devout Muslim father in a Toronto suburb told local media Tuesday she was killed for not wearing a hijab.

Police said in a statement they received an emergency call at 7:55 am local time Monday from "a man who indicated that he had just killed his daughter."

The victim, Aqsa Parvez, was "rushed to hospital with life-threatening injuries, but tragically passed away late last night."

Her father, Muhammad Parvez, 57, was arrested at the scene and will be formally charged with murder when he appears in court Wednesday, said police.

The girl's friends, meanwhile, told local media she was having trouble at home because she did not conform to the family's religious beliefs and refused to wear a traditional Islamic head scarf, or hijab.

"She wanted to go different ways than her family wanted to go, and she wanted to make her own path, but he (her father) wouldn't let her," one of her classmates told public broadcaster CBC.

"She loved clothes," another of her friends, Dominiquia Holmes-Thompson, told the daily Toronto Star. "She just wanted to show her beauty ... She just wanted to dress like us, just like a normal person."

...

They said she would leave home wearing a hijab and loose-fitting clothes, but would take off her head scarf and change into tighter garments at school, then change back before going home at the end of the day.

The victim's 26 year-old brother was also charged with obstructing police in the investigation.

Father killed daughter for not wearing hijab (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071211175557.p3d3kaah&show_article=1)

[Pale Rider]

So... some woman names a TEDDY BEAR mohammad, and the muzzies want to WHIP HER for it and THROW HER IN JAIL???!!!

Yeah... try again and tell me how islam is a religon of peace... 'cause I don't get it.

[manu1959]

Romney isn't Catholic Manu.

i know....seems you didn't when you claimed he invaded the middle east ....

[manu1959]

It's also interesting when people whose alleged understanding is flawed try to bully others into accepting their viewpoints.
You should stick to your own area of expertise, which is how to kill people. Leave the understanding to others.

the irony of your claim i am sure is lost on you.....

[glockmail]

Do you support Mitt Romney? His religion was created out of nothing too. :dunno: Their incursions into Europe are the same as Europe's incursions into the Middle East--a struggle for territory. Why the double standard?
Gee, we don't see many Mormons flying 737s into buildings, or threatening to nuke Israel. I must have missed something.

[Nukeman]

I assume this was directed towards me:



I do understand. It would seem as if you do not.

Is it not, despite the different interpretations of the Bible, the goal of Christians to spread their faith? To convert others? It is the same with Islam. Despite their different intepretations, the goal of both moderate and militant Muslims, Sunni and Shia, is to spread the faith, convert the infidels.



I accept this, I really do. I have no problem with this concept what so ever.



I get the need to understand, but unless we live the religion, we will never fully understand. As for the dress code, I get it, my comment was more tongue in cheek than serious. But it doe still seem repressive, unless of course this event really did take place in someone's home or perhaps a mosque.



Actually, no, I don't. If they choose to practice in the U.S., they must conform to U.S. laws, not Sharia . They must be tolerant of other faiths. They must accept that in the U.S. we have freedom of speech and if an artist wishes to depict Mohammed on canvas or in a cartoon, they can not murder said artist or riot in the streets destroying property and chanting death to whoever.



I don't stereotype anyone, as I stated, I have friends from all over the religious spectrum.



I don't have to hear it, I know it. From personal experience. I have another Muslim friend who feels this way, and he'll be the first to tell you that other Muslims will not and do not consider him a "true" Muslim.



Again, you are wrong. Flat out wrong. I work with "Mexicans, blacks and other minorities" everyday, they are all decent, hardworking people whom I respect. I have friends who are "Mexicans, blacks and other minorities," They are all decent, hardworking people whom I respect.



In my experience, people who don't understand, fear. Not hate.


By the way, did the speaker discuss the Muslim tradition of "honor" killings?Another great post!!!

I have made it a "mission" of mine to understand Islam, I have been doing a great deal of reading and interacting on other boards with Islamist. I will tell you this for every 2-3 that dont want to kill the "infadel's" there are atleast 1 that does. These numbers are not made up, just my own personal observations. 1/3 of the Muslims on one of the LESS militant boards can not stand ANYTHING western for it goes against everything they stand for. As you can see these are NOT A SMALL NUMBER OF MUSLIMS. You are falling for the "Westernized Islam" that is frowned upon by the other 1 billion Islamist in the rest of the world.

Gabby, just because most of us don't sit on this sight and pour our hearts out to the likes of you does not make us uneducated, inbred, mouth breathing idiots. You need to realize that a great deal of the people on this board are highly educated. Most on here either have a great deal of real life experience or are college educated like yourself. Don't ever discount real life experience and don't elevate the university education over it either that is a mistake made by a number of "educated" people.

You have no idea what MOST of us on this board do in our spare time and what we study let alone our educational background. You are very quick to throw out that we are some how inferior to you because we don't discuss our educations or **gasp** disagree with you, after all how can an educated person possibly disagree with one that is?? You claim that a number of board memebers are prejudiced, yet that is exactly what you are You have preconceived notions of many members based solely on their location in the US. You are one of the most prejudiced people on this board. You really should quit throwing stones while standing in your glass house..

[darin]

It's another case of a Liberal conducting character assisinations on those who disagree.

Reasonable Person: No, Islam DOES condone killing people, based on the actions of those who claim to be the MOST-islamic.

Gabby: If you don't agree with my POV, you MUST HATE Muslims!!

Reasonable Person: I don't hate Muslims - I hate Muslims who KILL PEOPLE

Gabby: Enough with the HATRED!

Reasonable Person: Okay, you're mental.

[Hobbit]

Gee, we don't see many Mormons flying 737s into buildings, or threatening to nuke Israel. I must have missed something.

Yeah, Mormons are known for going door to door to annoy people, dressing in nice clothes, having lots of kids, and inviting neighbors over for dinner.

Muslims, on the other hand...

Mormon stereotype:

http://static.flickr.com/102/289010948_5e3a5c6ca7.jpg

The Muslim stereotype:

http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0507/Nahr_al_Bared_Palestinian_terrorist_camp.jpg

Can you spot the difference?

[Yurt]

Those who don't understand, hate.

You have no clue how much time I have spent studying that religion and learning about Islam through islamic forums. Instead of merely mocking, why don't you point out exactly what it "is" I don't understand.

[glockmail]

...Can you spot the difference? Gee, looks like a valid comparison to me. :rolleyes:

[glockmail]

You have no clue how much time I have spent studying that religion and learning about Islam through islamic forums. Instead of merely mocking, why don't you point out exactly what it "is" I don't understand.
Apparently gabby thinks that submission is the same as understanding.

[Yurt]

Abbey and fellow muslim sympathizers, please explain this verse to me:

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[avatar4321]

I attended a very intriguing program tonight. It was presented by a couple that travels about trying to clear up misconceptions about Islam. The tenets of "militant Islam" are a lot different than that of conventional modern Islam.
Some basic things are the same. There were separate programs (at separate sites) for men and women. Those attending the women's program faced some dress restrictions (long pants and long sleeve shirts, no makeup or jewelry, no perfumes). Burkas were not required. :)

The first fallacy that was dispelled was that Muslims wanted to take over the world. The truth is, the Muslims only want control of areas that were originally occupied. The sticking point is, they don't want to yield any control to non-Muslims. Any American/Western presence in the Middle East fuels hatred. Muslims do not want to settle in the U.S., which they consider "unclean."

I thought I understood Islam to a degree. I was totally wrong. Islam is not merely a religion. It is the essence of Muslim life itself. Allah and his prophet, Mohammad, are held in such reverence that they can only be mentioned in a certain way. The prophet can not be represented or alluded to in any physical way whatsoever. Because the prophet is a holy spirit, depicting him in any other way is considered a supreme sacrilege.
The reason for the extreme lifestyle limitations is that physical life is considered one long test to see if a person is deemed worthy of the Eternal Kingdom. Which is why men are treated one way and women are treated in a different way. It is not really that much different than various early cultures, when women were considered "property" and often treated worse than work animals.

One huge difference between conventional Muslims and militant Muslims is their interpretations of The Koran in regards to martyrdom and the afterlife. Militant Muslims believe suicide bombings and missions make you a martyr and guarantee a place in Heaven. The way conventional Muslims interpret it, suicide is the ultimate act of cowardice. This is where the "47 virgins" thing came from. Mohammad was supposed to have said something to the effect of "Let those who disassemble themselves be carved into 47 pieces and left for the vagrants, for they are not suitable for the Kingdom."

Yes, this way way too long for many of you. But if you wish to understand your enemy, you might seek further.

If all they want is the territory originally occupied, then they are more than welcome to have Medina and Mecca. Because those are the only places the originally occupied.

The rest of the territory they conquored. And believe me, they would have occupied even more territory if the Chinese and Charles Martel hadn't had key victories to halt their progression. I have no doubt they would have conquored North and South America as well if they had known about it.

The idea that militant islam will end their campaign simply when they get control of the full extent of their Caliphate empire is absurd. Getting back is just the beginning.

I've studied Islam off and on since before 9/11. And not because I want to "know the enemy." Because I dont see muslims as enemies. I would even extend the the hand of friendship to these militant muslims. They would never accept it. But my view is to try to be friends with all people. And thats why you learn about what others believe and think. So you can get to know them better.

I have no faith that such militants would ever extend the hand of fellowship back and I would have no hesitation defending myself or others should the need arise. But I have no desire to destroy anyone and I would be more than willing to leave them alone if they left us alone.

Thing is, it will never happen. They started this war against us. and I am more than happy to support the troops in making sure it gets finished with victory and, more importantly, survival for us.

[Yurt]

If all they want is the territory originally occupied, then they are more than welcome to have Medina and Mecca. Because those are the only places the originally occupied.

.

I don't believe that actually is accurate with regards to mecca. The pagens would not back down on the city, so Muhammad had a "revelation" that his followers should leave for a year. During this year he pillaged and plundered and built up his forces. He then went to the pagens and told them to get the hell out or he was coming in with his large army. The pagens controled the kabba long before muhammad, he had to force it from them.


Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[REDWHITEBLUE2]

Abbey and fellow muslim sympathizers, please explain this verse to me:

Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. :poke: I think you ment Gabby NOT Abbey

[avatar4321]

I don't believe that actually is accurate with regards to mecca. The pagens would not back down on the city, so Muhammad had a "revelation" that his followers should leave for a year. During this year he pillaged and plundered and built up his forces. He then went to the pagens and told them to get the hell out or he was coming in with his large army. The pagens controled the kabba long before muhammad, he had to force it from them.


Quran 9:29

29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

I know, i was being generous.

[Yurt]

I know, i was being generous.

oh, ok

[Yurt]

:poke: I think you ment Gabby NOT Abbey

LOL, yeah i did, Abbey, don't kill me :laugh2:

[gabosaurus]

One of the primary tenets of Islam is that the Holy Koran can not be accurately translated out of Arabic or understood by non-Muslims.
Verse 9:29 is actually part of a selection of passages that were in a translation that I received once. It reads:

[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

"Fight" is often not referred to in a militant manner. Often it is a term for resistance.
I have been told that much of the Koran is not meant to be taken literally. It is spiritual. Which is why the hardliners and militants fight with the more moderate factions.

As for "honor killing," that is more often practiced in Hindu cultures than Muslims. Though it does occur in both.
Americans practiced "honor killings" for a couple of centuries. Only we called them "lynchings."

[gabosaurus]

GAWD do you see the IRONY? You're defending a faith which THRIVES on 'Join us or Die!'.

Sounds like Bush twisting arms after his illegal invasion of Iraq.

[avatar4321]

Sounds like Bush twisting arms after his illegal invasion of Iraq.

i must have missed the President's speech on invading Iraq to convert the Iraqis to evangelical Christianity. Do you have a reference?

[Yurt]

One of the primary tenets of Islam is that the Holy Koran can not be accurately translated out of Arabic or understood by non-Muslims.
Verse 9:29 is actually part of a selection of passages that were in a translation that I received once. It reads:

[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

"Fight" is often not referred to in a militant manner. Often it is a term for resistance.
I have been told that much of the Koran is not meant to be taken literally. It is spiritual. Which is why the hardliners and militants fight with the more moderate factions.

As for "honor killing," that is more often practiced in Hindu cultures than Muslims. Though it does occur in both.
Americans practiced "honor killings" for a couple of centuries. Only we called them "lynchings."


Gabby, I would like your opinion on the submission part.

Further the translation argument is a red herring. Btw, I got that translation from an islamic site gabby. Especially in this case, if you are to subdue and force a tax on someone, how do you propose that happen without a "fight?" Additionally, who ever translated that for you obviously has their own agenda, as here is the islamic translation for the Quran:

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

[gabosaurus]

i must have missed the President's speech on invading Iraq to convert the Iraqis to evangelical Christianity. Do you have a reference?

I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to his ultimatum to countries that might refuse to join in his Holy War against Iraq.

Yurt, I am sure there are as many translations and interpretations of the Koran as there are of the Bible. "Submission" can be interpreted as "conversion" or other such means.
If you are looking for a sinister meaning to everything, I am sure you can find one.

[Yurt]

I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to his ultimatum to countries that might refuse to join in his Holy War against Iraq.

Yurt, I am sure there are as many translations and interpretations of the Koran as there are of the Bible. "Submission" can be interpreted as "conversion" or other such means.
If you are looking for a sinister meaning to everything, I am sure you can find one.

until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly :poke:

[Trigg]

One of the primary tenets of Islam is that the Holy Koran can not be accurately translated out of Arabic or understood by non-Muslims.

I have been told that much of the Koran is not meant to be taken literally. It is spiritual. Which is why the hardliners and militants fight with the more moderate factions.

As for "honor killing," that is more often practiced in Hindu cultures than Muslims. Though it does occur in both.



So you went to this meeting and came away with all this knowledge, that us stupid republicans just can't understand. Even though at least 2 people have said they've studied islamic sights for a few years, they're still wrong.

I'm surprised at your attitude, you've stated more than once that you are a femanist, that you were taught to take care of yourself.

Yet here you are excusing this religion in it's treatment of women.

I will agree with you on one thing, islam is a way of life, not mearly a religion. It is much like the Amish in this way.

Honor killings have taken place in England, Canada, US and Europe. Fathers killing their daughters for marrying the wrong man, wearing the wrong clothes and shaming the family by being raped. Saying that we should accept that Islam is violent is to ignore the suffering of these innocent women.

Also I don't know where you got that the Koran isn't taken literally. The Koran is the true word of the profit, please don't take my word for it, go to an islamic websight and ask them.

I don't hate muslims, I'd like them to join this century though. Christian religions in the past were very intolerant of theres, we got over that thankgoodness now it's their turn.

[actsnoblemartin]

The truth apparently doesnt matter to gabosaurus, see links below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours

The Battle of Tours (October 10, 732),[3] also called Battle of Poitiers and in Arabic: معركة بلاط الشهداء (ma‘arakat Balâṭ ash-Shuhadâ’) The battle of The Court of Martyrs[4] was fought near the city of Tours, close to the border between the Frankish realm and then-independent Aquitaine. The battle pitted Frankish and Burgundian[5][6] forces under Austrasian Mayor of the Palace Charles Martel against an army of the Umayyad Caliphate led by ‘Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi, Governor-general of al-Andalus. The Franks were victorious, ‘Abdul Rahman Al Ghafiqi was killed, and Martel subsequently extended his authority in the south. Ninth-century chroniclers, who interpreted the outcome of the battle as divine judgment in his favour, gave Charles the nickname Martellus ("The Hammer"), possibly recalling Judas Maccabeus ("The Hammerer") of the Maccabean revolt.[7][8] Details of the battle, including its exact location and the exact number of combatants, cannot be determined from accounts that have survived; although the Frankish troops won the battle without cavalry.[9]

As later chroniclers praised Charles Martel as the champion of Christianity, pre-20th century historians began to characterize this battle as being the decisive turning point in the struggle against Islam, a struggle which preserved Christianity as the religion of Europe. "Most of the 18th and 19th century historians, like Gibbon, saw Poitiers (Tours), as a landmark battle that marked the high tide of the Muslim advance into Europe."[10] Leopold von Ranke felt that "Poitiers was the turning point of one of the most important epochs in the history of the world."[11]

While modern historians are divided and there is considerable disagreement as to whether or not the victory was responsible — as Gibbon and his generation of historians claimed, and which is echoed by many modern historians — for saving Christianity and halting the conquest of Europe by Islam, there is little dispute that the battle helped lay the foundations of the Carolingian Empire and Frankish domination of Europe for the next century. "The establishment of Frankish power in western Europe shaped that continent's destiny and the Battle of Tours confirmed that power."[12]



Bullshit. Their religion was created out of nothing. How do you explain their repeated incursions into Europe?

[actsnoblemartin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquest_of_Persia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

http://www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/mehistorydatabase/islamic_conquests_632.php

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/donner.html

http://www.meforum.org/article/687

http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/Commentary/IslamHistory0212.aspx

http://stopislamicconquest.blogspot.com/

[Nukeman]

So you went to this meeting and came away with all this knowledge, that us stupid republicans just can't understand. Even though at least 2 people have said they've studied islamic sights for a few years, they're still wrong.

I'm surprised at your attitude, you've stated more than once that you are a femanist, that you were taught to take care of yourself.

Yet here you are excusing this religion in it's treatment of women.

I will agree with you on one thing, islam is a way of life, not mearly a religion. It is much like the Amish in this way.

Honor killings have taken place in England, Canada, US and Europe. Fathers killing their daughters for marrying the wrong man, wearing the wrong clothes and shaming the family by being raped. Saying that we should accept that Islam is violent is to ignore the suffering of these innocent women.

Also I don't know where you got that the Koran isn't taken literally. The Koran is the true word of the profit, please don't take my word for it, go to an islamic websight and ask them.

I don't hate muslims, I'd like them to join this century though. Christian religions in the past were very intolerant of theres, we got over that thankgoodness now it's their turn.I bolded this part because it is the absolute truth. The Koran is the word of Allah and only Allah no one is to make in interpretation of it, it is absolute in its teachings. This is why it is not to be translated into anything other than arabic....

[glockmail]

I bolded this part because it is the absolute truth. The Koran is the word of Allah and only Allah no one is to make in interpretation of it, it is absolute in its teachings. This is why it is not to be translated into anything other than arabic....
You should have bolded it because of the mis-spelling. How ironic, as Mohamed wrote the Koran for his own personal profit.

[Sir Evil]

Lumping them all together and distrusting and despising the lot is really no different than saying "all niggers look alike".


I don't think so because you look unlike any nigger I have seen before.

[Yurt]

until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly :poke:

are you going to be predictable gabs and ignore hard evidence and then believe you are right? be spontanuous, answer a hard response. :cool:

[Yurt]

are you going to be predictable gabs and ignore hard evidence and then believe you are right? be spontanuous, answer a hard response. :cool:

:dance:

[Kathianne]

One of the primary tenets of Islam is that the Holy Koran can not be accurately translated out of Arabic or understood by non-Muslims.
Verse 9:29 is actually part of a selection of passages that were in a translation that I received once. It reads:

[9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

"Fight" is often not referred to in a militant manner. Often it is a term for resistance.
I have been told that much of the Koran is not meant to be taken literally. It is spiritual. Which is why the hardliners and militants fight with the more moderate factions.

As for "honor killing," that is more often practiced in Hindu cultures than Muslims. Though it does occur in both.
Americans practiced "honor killings" for a couple of centuries. Only we called them "lynchings."
First, you are giving the definition of dhimmitude, the unbelievers who will be taxed. If it is spiritual, why the heck are they talking money? Second, Americans are a nationality NOT a religion, the lynchings were never about honor, just hatred.

[Yurt]

First, you are giving the definition of dhimmitude, the unbelievers who will be taxed. If it is spiritual, why the heck are they talking money? Second, Americans are a nationality NOT a religion, the lynchings were never about honor, just hatred.

have to spread rep

[Nukeman]

have to spread rep

Took care of it for you Yurt!!!!

[actsnoblemartin]

spread it around

[Yurt]

gabs claimed that she ran from this thread because it became "hate filled." I called her bs and now open the question up again. There is no hate, I never presented any. If she doesn't answer, then she will show herself to be untruthful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yurt
until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly

that was quoted from you gabs.

now explain how that is not about subjugating non muslims.