It's not about guns this time

[gabosaurus]

You know me. I am as anti-gun as they come. I would blame gun ownership if I could. But that was not the problem in the Omaha mall shooting.
The problem was the lack of mental health facilities. The indigent and uninsured have little to no access to public mental health care. Due primarily to funding cutbacks.
The Omaha shooter had been battling depression and psychosis for quite some time. He had been arrested and kicked out of his own home. He had known anger issues.
The family that took him in talked about the improvements he had been making. But if you study mental health issues, you know that the "triggers" were still present. When he lost his job and his girlfriend in the same week, that set off the triggers.
As long as there are continued cutbacks in public mental health care, you are going to have incidents like this and Virginia Tech.

I didn't put this in the thread about the mall shootings because that has evolved into an argument about gun control. This is not about guns. It's about the person who used them.

[glockmail]

You know me. I am as anti-gun as they come. I would blame gun ownership if I could. But that was not the problem in the Omaha mall shooting.
The problem was the lack of mental health facilities. The indigent and uninsured have little to no access to public mental health care. Due primarily to funding cutbacks.
The Omaha shooter had been battling depression and psychosis for quite some time. He had been arrested and kicked out of his own home. He had known anger issues.
The family that took him in talked about the improvements he had been making. But if you study mental health issues, you know that the "triggers" were still present. When he lost his job and his girlfriend in the same week, that set off the triggers.
As long as there are continued cutbacks in public mental health care, you are going to have incidents like this and Virginia Tech.

I didn't put this in the thread about the mall shootings because that has evolved into an argument about gun control. This is not about guns. It's about the person who used them.


So its not about guns. Its about health care. :lame2:

[Hagbard Celine]

You know me. I am as anti-gun as they come. I would blame gun ownership if I could. But that was not the problem in the Omaha mall shooting.
The problem was the lack of mental health facilities. The indigent and uninsured have little to no access to public mental health care. Due primarily to funding cutbacks.
The Omaha shooter had been battling depression and psychosis for quite some time. He had been arrested and kicked out of his own home. He had known anger issues.
The family that took him in talked about the improvements he had been making. But if you study mental health issues, you know that the "triggers" were still present. When he lost his job and his girlfriend in the same week, that set off the triggers.
As long as there are continued cutbacks in public mental health care, you are going to have incidents like this and Virginia Tech.

I didn't put this in the thread about the mall shootings because that has evolved into an argument about gun control. This is not about guns. It's about the person who used them.

I agree. We need to fight the emo kids who terrorize our society.

[truthmatters]

Its about mental illness. We could catch more of this shit before it happens if we had a better healthcare system in place.

It is often very troubled kids that are doing this.

[Hobbit]

Apparently, it WAS caught before it happened, but some people chose not to follow through. Remember personal choice? How about personal responsibility? Or is everything society's fault for not paying enough taxes?

[glockmail]

Its about mental illness. We could catch more of this shit before it happens if we had a better healthcare system in place.

It is often very troubled kids that are doing this.

We have the best health care system in the world. If we adopt Canada's, by this logic, mall and school shootings will go through the roof.

Why not accept the fact that this guy could have gotten help if he wanted it, and if more shop-keeps had guns most of the 8 he killed would still be alive?

[gabosaurus]

At least truthmatters knows what is going on. The rest of you can go back to your fascination with killing people.

[Mr. P]

You know me. I am as anti-gun as they come. I would blame gun ownership if I could. But that was not the problem in the Omaha mall shooting.
The problem was the lack of mental health facilities. The indigent and uninsured have little to no access to public mental health care. Due primarily to funding cutbacks.
The Omaha shooter had been battling depression and psychosis for quite some time. He had been arrested and kicked out of his own home. He had known anger issues.
The family that took him in talked about the improvements he had been making. But if you study mental health issues, you know that the "triggers" were still present. When he lost his job and his girlfriend in the same week, that set off the triggers.
As long as there are continued cutbacks in public mental health care, you are going to have incidents like this and Virginia Tech.

I didn't put this in the thread about the mall shootings because that has evolved into an argument about gun control. This is not about guns. It's about the person who used them.

Which IS what it should ALWAYS be about.

[theHawk]

My question is where the phuck were the mall security guards at? This guy was in camo fatigues and totting a rifle and just waltzed on up to the top of the escalators before he started shooting? Citizens shouldn't need to tot guns to a mall while Christmas shopping.

[Hagbard Celine]

We have the best health care system in the world. If we adopt Canada's, by this logic, mall and school shootings will go through the roof.

Why not accept the fact that this guy could have gotten help if he wanted it, and if more shop-keeps had guns most of the 8 he killed would still be alive?

Actually, Canada has a very low incidence of gun violence. :dunno:

[glockmail]

Actually, Canada has a very low incidence of gun violence. :dunno: That's because Canadians don't have the right to own anything other than a hunting rifle or shotgun. Many have no method of defense in close comabt situations. A buddy of mine went bear hunting, and the guide, instead of a handgun if the shit hit the fan, carried an ax.

[theHawk]

Its about mental illness. We could catch more of this shit before it happens if we had a better healthcare system in place.

It is often very troubled kids that are doing this.

The only real problems with our health care system is that its too damned expensive and regulated. The more government intervention the more expensive the costs get. If we pass laws to prevent people from sueing doctors for millions and also keep the uninsured illegals out of our country that should bring costs down.

[theHawk]

Actually, Canada has a very low incidence of gun violence. :dunno:


Canada probably has much lower gun violence because it isn't overrun with illegal mexicans (with their gangs) and minorities (with their thug culture).

[Hagbard Celine]

Canada probably has much lower gun violence because it isn't overrun with illegal mexicans (with their gangs) and minorities (with their thug culture).

Or maybe it's because it doesn't have as many guns. :dunno:

[hjmick]

Give it time, Gabo and TM are about to go back in time twenty plus years and blame Reagan. ;)

Seriously though...

The one thing you, Gabo and TM, seem to be overlooking is the age of the shooter. He was tweny years old. An adult. No one could force him to get treatment for his problems. No one. Even an arrest and time in jail does not get the mentally ill treatment. I speak from experience. As broken as the mental health system may or may not be, after a certain point there is little to nothing anyone can do to make someone get the treatment they need. If we could, I would be first in line because getting help is the only thing that will save my twenty four year old daughter. My wife and I are going to out live her, I guarantee it, and let me tell you, that is not a good feeling.

She knows she is mentally ill, she knows she needs help, she knows she would be better off getting help, and she knows getting the help will most likely save her life and save her from living a shitty existance. The problem is, she doesn't care. She doesn't care because she is mentally ill. She has been self medicating through alcohol and drugs for years now and it has become a nasty, vicious cycle. Prior to her becoming an adult, her mother and I did everything in our power to get her help, to get her "right," therapists, psychologists, live-in treatment facilities. When she reached the age of eighteen, we discovered there was nothing more we could do. Nothing. She is an adult and all decisions are hers and hers alone.

The mental health system in this country is not perfect. But how do we change it without infringing on the rights of the citizenry? Who do we lock up and by what means do we make the determination? For how long? Do we rely on doctors? They've been known to make their share of mistakes. The legal system? They've been known to sentence innocent people to death. Family? I don't like my sister all that much.

These are just a few of many tough questions that need to be asked and answered about a very tough issue. Believe me, I know.

[gabosaurus]

EXCELLENT points hjmick!! Thank you for providing a voice of experience and reason.
I have to admit, I did overlook the age of the shooter. I was thinking he was under 18, since they mentioned that he dropped out of high school. My mistake on that.
I still think the mental health system is badly in need of repairs. But as hjmick stated, you can't force adults into treatment unless they have shown themselves to be a threat to others.

Hjmick, people like your daughter are what convinced me to go into the teen counseling profession. Because, if not for the love and care of some mental health professionals, I could have easily be in the same boat right now. Yes, make the jokes and snide cracks, I am bi-polar. I inherited it from my mom. I've had a nervous breakdown.
These things need to be detected, diagnosed and treated when the kid is younger. It's not a sure cure, but if it helps prevent one mall or school shooting, if would be worth it.

Please keep the gun control discussion in the other thread. This is about mental health.

[-Cp]

hmm.. I wonder if Europes "Model Health Care System" is at fault here as well?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D07E4DD1F30F932A25756C0A9649C8B 63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-6092309.html

[hjmick]

EXCELLENT points hjmick!! Thank you for providing a voice of experience and reason.
I have to admit, I did overlook the age of the shooter. I was thinking he was under 18, since they mentioned that he dropped out of high school. My mistake on that.

I still think the mental health system is badly in need of repairs. But as hjmick stated, you can't force adults into treatment unless they have shown themselves to be a threat to others.

I can't disagree with the need for change in the system. Having experienced the circuitous route one must travel to get the help needed for a minor child, I can say without pause that there should be a way to streamline things. One of the issues we discovered was among physicians and teachers. There were suspicions early on that there were problems with our daughter, but we met with resistance in some circles, "she's too young to be mentally ill," they said. "She's just acting out," was another popular line. Another favorite, "She'll outgrow it." Yeah, right. There seemed to be a general belief that, at the age of...I guess six or seven or so, a child could not be mentally ill. It was not until she hit her teens that people actually started to listen to us, and even then there was a reluctance to diagnos her condition accurately. We were actually told that she was bi-polar and had borderline personality disorder but that because she was not eighteen she couldn't be BPD. HUH?

But I digress...there are a couple of other things she's been tagged with but my point is, and granted our experiences come from the late '80s through the '90s, professionals should perhaps pay more heed to what the parents are saying rather than rely on wht they believe to be the standard.


Hjmick, people like your daughter are what convinced me to go into the teen counseling profession. Because, if not for the love and care of some mental health professionals, I could have easily be in the same boat right now. Yes, make the jokes and snide cracks, I am bi-polar. I inherited it from my mom. I've had a nervous breakdown.
These things need to be detected, diagnosed and treated when the kid is younger. It's not a sure cure, but if it helps prevent one mall or school shooting, if would be worth it.

It's not an easy profession, we all know what assholes regular healthy teens can be, throw in mental health issues, and, well, you know. To your last point regarding early diagnosis and treatment, I couldn't agree more. We lost a good five to seven years of treatment due to early mistakes and I firmly believe this led to the "loss" of our daughter.


Please keep the gun control discussion in the other thread. This is about mental health.

Yeah!

[JohnDoe]

Apparently, it WAS caught before it happened, but some people chose not to follow through. Remember personal choice? How about personal responsibility? Or is everything society's fault for not paying enough taxes?


Hobbit,

What are you talking about here? On the personal responsibility and it being caught but people chose not to follow through?

Personal responsibility of the deranged kid? He was suppose to do something to make him well? I guess I am confused on what you meant?

I personally do not think that those that are mentally ill should be able to own guns legally, especially if they are in any kind of suicidal state of mind.

This is the second mass murder situation that has taken place in just a few weeks or months by a deranged, mentally ill, young person.

------------------------------------------------

On another note, I think all of this media coverage, giving the kid the notoriety that he so desired to come along with his suicide, can be fueling more of these mass murder/suicide situations imo.


jd

OOPS, just read the last post on keeping these issues separate....yikes

[hjmick]

I personally do not think that those that are mentally ill should be able to own guns legally, especially if they are in any kind of suicidal state of mind.

My understanding is the he stole the gun from his stepfather, which raises a whole other set of issues in my mind


OOPS, just read the last post on keeping these issues separate....yikes

We'll let it slide...this time.

[diuretic]

The first time I had to deal with a mentally unwell person was when i was about 20 and the bloke I had to arrest (mental health arrest can be made in certain circumstances - usually danger to the patient or others) was having a major paranoid episode. What really smacked me in the face was that he was my age. He wasn't a danger to me or my partner, he knew who we were and knew we would protect him from the people who were trying to harm him, which was a bit of a relief But apart from being careful to reassure him all the time that he was safe, we didn't have the appropriate skills to do anything else.

Those who think mental illness is about "personal responsibility" may as well round on a cancer sufferer and accuse them of not having any "personal responsibility" because a mental illness isn't about "personal responsibility".

[truthmatters]

The first time I had to deal with a mentally unwell person was when i was about 20 and the bloke I had to arrest (mental health arrest can be made in certain circumstances - usually danger to the patient or others) was having a major paranoid episode. What really smacked me in the face was that he was my age. He wasn't a danger to me or my partner, he knew who we were and knew we would protect him from the people who were trying to harm him, which was a bit of a relief But apart from being careful to reassure him all the time that he was safe, we didn't have the appropriate skills to do anything else.

Those who think mental illness is about "personal responsibility" may as well round on a cancer sufferer and accuse them of not having any "personal responsibility" because a mental illness isn't about "personal responsibility".




Spot on Di.

I wish the people who talk this crap would go take a good look at the American mental health system. This kid could have very likely been sucessfully treated well before he became an adult.

[hjmick]

The first time I had to deal with a mentally unwell person was when i was about 20 and the bloke I had to arrest (mental health arrest can be made in certain circumstances - usually danger to the patient or others) was having a major paranoid episode. What really smacked me in the face was that he was my age. He wasn't a danger to me or my partner, he knew who we were and knew we would protect him from the people who were trying to harm him, which was a bit of a relief But apart from being careful to reassure him all the time that he was safe, we didn't have the appropriate skills to do anything else.

Here in California, the best we can hope for is a 72 hour hold for "observation." As if someone actually watches.


Those who think mental illness is about "personal responsibility" may as well round on a cancer sufferer and accuse them of not having any "personal responsibility" because a mental illness isn't about "personal responsibility".

On a certain level I agree with you here, yet on another...

In the case of my daughter, she is very intelligent, she is quite capable rational thought, she knows she is mentally ill and need treatment, yet she refuses. I understand the muddled thought patterns of the mentally ill contribute to their resistance to seeking help, I get it. But I swear to you, there are times, when talking to my daughter, I just don't understand why, with all she knows about her condition, how it is she can't or doesn't get the help she needs. I have asked her and the only response I have ever recieved was, "I don't want to."

Diuretic, at some point, for some, I can't help but think that a certain amount of personal responsibility is a factor.

[Abbey Marie]

Has anyone seen the movie Mr. Jones, with Richard Gere? I'm not sure how accurate it was, but it was interesting to see how bi-polar people often don't want to take their meds, because they don't like the levelled-off feeling. And they don't like the absence of the manic side of their personality.
I suppose there is little you can do when an adult feels this way.

[theHawk]

Or maybe it's because it doesn't have as many guns. :dunno:

Yes, they have less guns, because they aren't overrun by gangs and thugs. :coffee:

The fact that they do have guns, and the low violence rate, is proof that gun ownership in itself is not the evil. Its gangs and thug culture, or mental illness as gabby has pointed out. :cool:

[JohnDoe]

Here in California, the best we can hope for is a 72 hour hold for "observation." As if someone actually watches.



On a certain level I agree with you here, yet on another...

In the case of my daughter, she is very intelligent, she is quite capable rational thought, she knows she is mentally ill and need treatment, yet she refuses. I understand the muddled thought patterns of the mentally ill contribute to their resistance to seeking help, I get it. But I swear to you, there are times, when talking to my daughter, I just don't understand why, with all she knows about her condition, how it is she can't or doesn't get the help she needs. I have asked her and the only response I have ever recieved was, "I don't want to."

Diuretic, at some point, for some, I can't help but think that a certain amount of personal responsibility is a factor.

hj, PLEASE don't blame your daughter on this....it is very common and known that those that are mentally ill can not be responsible for getting the help that they need themselves, it IS PART of the mental illness itself in many circumstances.

I can presume that this is very frustrating for you, but her own personal responsibility in trying to take care of her own mental illness should not be held against her...like I said, it is part of the illness itself. I don't know where you live, but in Florida, she could be Baker Act(ed), by a family member, if she were an endangerment to herself or others....

She needs to be FORCED in to getting help hj, its the only way she will get it, imo. Maybe some sort of "intervention" by those that love her....could help too?

jd

[manu1959]

i blame the girlfriend......

[JohnDoe]

yes, there is little one can do when they don't take their meds, my sister's best friend was a wonderful loving mother of 2 and wife, when she was taking her meds, but ended up killing herself, when she was off of them.

She understood and wanted to take her meds when she was on her meds though, it just happened that she forgot a regular dose, that then lead to other doses not being taken, that then lead her in to the suicidal fate.

Family members need to be there for the adults that refuse to take their meds, slip them one in to their food or trick them somehow in to taking one, this will get them realigned mentally, enough to make them continue taking them, imo.

jd

[darin]

You're living in a fantasy land, JD. Nobody can 'slip meds' into the food of a mentally-ill adult living on his/her own. People, while on meds, STOP taking their meds all the time. ALL This talk serves to absolve the Guy from the sin of being sick enough, or evil enough, to kill those others.

[hjmick]

hj, PLEASE don't blame your daughter on this....it is very common and known that those that are mentally ill can not be responsible for getting the help that they need themselves, it IS PART of the mental illness itself in many circumstances.

I don't, not really. Except maybe on the particularly frustrating days. The funny thing is, when she was living at home and taking her meds, she was fine, though she expressed her distatse for the meds saying she didn't want to go through life "drugged out." Now, of course, she's either drunk or high, or both. Go figure.


I can presume that this is very frustrating for you, but her own personal responsibility in trying to take care of her own mental illness should not be held against her...like I said, it is part of the illness itself. I don't know where you live, but in Florida, she could be Baker Act(ed), by a family member, if she were an endangerment to herself or others....

We don't hold it against her. Both her mother and I make sure she knows we love her and that we'll be there for her if and when she gets straight. We buy her groceries and clothes from time to time, never giving her cash. We live in California and from what we've learned there is very little we can do.


She needs to be FORCED in to getting help hj, its the only way she will get it, imo. Maybe some sort of "intervention" by those that love her....could help too?

jd

Been there, done that. More than once. I still hold out hope for her, but with two other kids we reached a point where we felt we might be neglecting them in our effort to help the oldest. It was not an easy realization nor were the decisions we've made since, but she knows we are there for her when she is ready and she knows we love her.

Thank you, JD, for your thoughts and encouragement. They are appreciated, really.

[Nukeman]

Just a bit of information for you there Gab's this young man was a ward of the state for 4 years and in their care so the people who failed him the most after his PARENTS, was the state


http://www.ketv.com/news/14792807/detail.html



OMAHA, Neb. -- Nebraska spent $265,000 and four years trying to provide help to the 19-year-old who became the Westroads Mall shooter on Wednesday afternoon.

Eight people were killed, in addition to the shooter, Robert A. Hawkins.

Gov. Dave Heineman said Hawkins became a ward of the state on Sept. 17, 2002, but parental rights were not terminated and none of his siblings were state wards. Hawkins was terminated as a state ward on Aug. 24, 2006

[Yurt]

You know me. I am as anti-gun as they come. I would blame gun ownership if I could. But that was not the problem in the Omaha mall shooting.
The problem was the lack of mental health facilities. The indigent and uninsured have little to no access to public mental health care. Due primarily to funding cutbacks.
The Omaha shooter had been battling depression and psychosis for quite some time. He had been arrested and kicked out of his own home. He had known anger issues.
The family that took him in talked about the improvements he had been making. But if you study mental health issues, you know that the "triggers" were still present. When he lost his job and his girlfriend in the same week, that set off the triggers.
As long as there are continued cutbacks in public mental health care, you are going to have incidents like this and Virginia Tech.

I didn't put this in the thread about the mall shootings because that has evolved into an argument about gun control. This is not about guns. It's about the person who used them.


Whoa, stop right there. Who said this guy even attempted to get help? Who said that he attempted and could not get help?

[Yurt]

Its about mental illness. We could catch more of this shit before it happens if we had a better healthcare system in place.

It is often very troubled kids that are doing this.

actually, health care and mental care are two very different things. most people wrongly assume they are one and the same, but they are not. trust me

[Mr. P]

actually, health care and mental care are two very different things. most people wrongly assume they are one and the same, but they are not. trust me

Mental care or mental health care....I don't trust these so called professionals farther than I could toss a pro football player. That's the truth!

[Yurt]

Mental care or mental health care....I don't trust these so called professionals farther than I could toss a pro football player. That's the truth!

ok..............go looooong

What do you trust then?

[Kathianne]

actually, health care and mental care are two very different things. most people wrongly assume they are one and the same, but they are not. trust me

They 'cap' mental health care at usually $50k-100k. Sounds like alot, but not if there are serious problems for a family.

[Yurt]

They 'cap' mental health care at usually $50k-100k. Sounds like alot, but not if there are serious problems for a family.

who is "they"

ever bought "mental" health insurance?

[Kathianne]

who is "they"

ever bought "mental" health insurance?

they being the insurance provided by employer. We hit the cap, after 4 years.