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chesswarsnow
12-02-2007, 11:11 PM
Sorry bout that,

1. Looks like Chavez stole a Nation.
2. What has happened to the people of Venezuela?
3. Its sad that its come to this.
4. The crimes that are and will take place, are hideous!
5. God help the people there.
6. Story goes thusly:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/world/americas/03venezuela.html?_r=2&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

"

December 3, 2007

CARACAS, Venezuela, Dec. 2 — From the unusually quiet streets of this capital to the hushed tones of state television announcers, Venezuela was on edge Sunday night as voters awaited the outcome of a contentious referendum that would give President Hugo Chávez sweeping new constitutional powers.

Hours after the polls closed, the government still had not released official results, causing political leaders to speculate that the vote was too close to call.

That would be a stunning development in a country where Mr. Chávez and his supporters control nearly all of the levers of power.

“The result will be quarrelsome,” Vice President Jorge Rodríguez said in comments broadcast on national television.

Both supporters and critics of the president pointed to exit polls in their favor, suggesting a disputed outcome to the vote. Electoral officials said official results could be released late Sunday evening or early Monday, after reports from polling stations around the country trickled in here.

In recent weeks, members of previously splintered opposition movements joined disillusioned Chávez supporters in an attempt to defeat the constitutional changes, which would abolish term limits, allow Mr. Chávez to declare states of emergency for unlimited periods and increase the state’s role in the economy, among other measures.

A defeat of the proposed constitutional overhaul would slow Mr. Chávez’s socialist-inspired transformation of Venezuela. Under his leadership the government, once a staunch ally of the United States, has become a leading opponent of the Bush administration’s policies in the developing world. It has also taken the most profound leftward turn of any large Latin American nation in decades.

The streets here were unusually free of traffic on Sunday evening, adding to the tension. Supporters of Mr. Chávez gathered around the presidential palace downtown to await the results, as they have done in past elections. The occasional blast of fireworks from hillside slums broke the rare silence of this city.

Unlike in past votes here, this time the government did not invite observers from the Organization of American States or the European Union, opening itself to potential claims of fraud.

The voting seemed to unfold largely without irregularities, though there were isolated reports of fraud and violence in parts of the country.

The referendum followed several weeks of street protests and frenetic campaigning over the 69 amendments to the Constitution proposed by Mr. Chávez and his supporters. It caps a year of bold moves by the president, who forged a single Socialist party among his followers, forced a television network critical of the government off the public airwaves, and nationalized oil, telephone and electricity companies.

In recent weeks, Mr. Chávez has adopted an increasingly confrontational tone with critics abroad, who have been multiplying even in friendly countries with moderate leftist governments like Brazil and Chile.

In the days before the referendum, Mr. Chávez recalled his ambassador from Colombia and threatened to nationalize the Venezuelan operations of Spanish banks after Spain’s king told him to shut up during a meeting. Mr. Chávez said he would cut off oil exports to the United States in the event of American interference in the vote.

.The United States remains the largest buyer of Venezuela’s oil, despite deteriorating political ties, but that long commercial relationship is starting to change as Mr. Chávez increases exports of oil to China and other countries while gradually selling off the oil refineries owned by Venezuela’s government in the United States.

Venezuela’s political opposition, normally divided among several small political parties, found common cause in calling on its members to vote against the amendments. An increasingly defiant student movement also protested here and in other large interior cities against the proposed charter.

In a move that alarmed the opposition, electoral officials over the weekend revoked the observer credentials of Jorge Quiroga, a former president of Bolivia and an outspoken critic of Mr. Chávez. Mr. Quiroga accused security forces here of following him after his arrival in Caracas. “They’ve taken my credential but not my tongue,” Mr. Quiroga said.

But Mr. Chávez, whose followers already control many powerful institutions — the National Assembly, the federal bureaucracy, the national oil company, the Supreme Court and all but a handful of state governments — relied on an unrivaled political machine to gather support for the measures.

“The whole proposal is marvelous,” said Francis Veracierta, 52, a treasurer at a communal council here, one of thousands of local governing entities loyal to Mr. Chávez that he created this year. After awakening to predawn fireworks, she said she joined a line at 6 a.m. to vote at a school in Petare, an area of sprawling hillside slums here.

“The power is for us in the community,” said Ms. Veracierta, wearing a red shirt, red cap and belt with Che Guevara’s face on it. She said she credited Mr. Chávez’s government for giving her a $3,800 loan to start a small clothing business.

But turnout in some areas was unexpectedly low, particularly in poor districts that are traditional bastions of loyalty for Mr. Chávez. Some of his supporters expressed concern that if they voted against the measures they might be retaliated against.

There was no line in front of the voting center at the Cecilio Acosta school in Petare on Sunday morning, as a few dozen people who had already voted milled about the street. Some volunteers working the voting machines sat idle, waiting for more voters to arrive. Other voting centers in Petare had lines outside, but they were less than half a block long.

“I’m impressed by the lack of voters,” said Ninoska González, 37, who sells cigarettes on the street. “This was full last year.” She described herself as a “Chavista” who voted for the president in last year’s presidential elections, but said she voted against his proposed changes on Sunday.

“I don’t agree with some articles,” Ms. González said. Asked about a measure to pay social security benefits to workers in the informal economy like her, she said, “That’s a lie.”

Confusion persisted Sunday over the amendments, with a major complaint among the president’s supporters and critics being that they had too little time to study the proposals. Some measures were warmly received even by the president’s critics, however, like those prohibiting discrimination based on political beliefs and sexual orientation.

Venezuela is struggling with the highest inflation rate in Latin America, at more than 16 percent. Farmers and ranchers complain that price controls prevent them from producing many basic products profitably, creating a flourishing black market for scarce items like milk, sugar and chicken.

The uncertainty over Mr. Chávez’s reforms, meanwhile, has led to accelerating capital flight as rich Venezuelans and private companies rush to buy assets abroad denominated in dollars or euros. One of the reforms would shorten the work day to six hours, popular among workers but potentially hurting productivity. The currency, the bolívar, currently trades at about 6,100 to the dollar in street trading, compared with an official rate of 2,150.

Venezuela’s state-controlled oil industry is also showing signs of strain, grappling with a purge of opposition management by Mr. Chávez and a retooling of the state oil company to focus on social welfare projects while aging oil fields need maintenance.

Petróleos de Venezuela, the state oil company, says it produces 3.3 million barrels a day, but OPEC places its output at just 2.4 million barrels. And private economists estimate that a third of oil production goes to meet domestic consumption, which is surging because of a subsidy that keeps gasoline prices at about seven cents a gallon.

Still, Mr. Chávez already has unprecedented discretionary control over Venezuela’s oil revenues, valued at more than $60 billion a year. “Because of its oil, Venezuela has global reach in OPEC and the rest of Latin America,” said Kenneth R. Maxwell, a professor of Latin American history at Harvard University.

"

7. I think its time we got this man out of power, what's this one man, compared to a whole Nation.
8. I guess in a way, we should allow him to go ahead and kill at least 50,000 people, before we step in.
9. That way we won't be seen as invading a sovereign nation.
10. I never thought I would see the day, but this is the time when many false prophets will arise.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

diuretic
12-02-2007, 11:46 PM
"Stepping in" to overthrow a democratically elected government would be counterproductive in the extreme. If the Venezuelans vote for this change to their constitution, which seems to me to be not the best idea, then that's their business, not that of any other country.

82Marine89
12-02-2007, 11:50 PM
Sorry bout that,


7. I think its time we got this man out of power, what's this one man, compared to a whole Nation.
8. I guess in a way, we should allow him to go ahead and kill at least 50,000 people, before we step in.
9. That way we won't be seen as invading a sovereign nation.


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

So you support genocide as a means to invade another country?

chesswarsnow
12-03-2007, 12:00 AM
Sorry bout that,




"Stepping in" to overthrow a democratically elected government would be counterproductive in the extreme. If the Venezuelans vote for this change to their constitution, which seems to me to be not the best idea, then that's their business, not that of any other country.


1. Yes I know that's the political correct way of dealing with these rough Nations in the making.
2. But what is about to take place is *PURE TROUBLE*.
3. Unlike South America has ever known.
4. Those natives of Venezuela don't deserve that one bit.
5. What is about to take place is going to *Shock The World*.
6. Watch out down there for riots folks, they will soon rear up their heads.
7. Social Unrest like its never seen will hit that Nation, rather soon too.
8. Its going to make China look like a full fledged democracy.

Regards,
SirJAmesofTexas

chesswarsnow
12-03-2007, 12:04 AM
Sorry bout that,




So you support genocide as a means to invade another country?


1. But what I think about your bated question, and what you think about my non~bated~ non~answer, isn't up for debate.
2. Move along.
3. Next question.

:popcorn:

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

82Marine89
12-03-2007, 12:10 AM
Try to follow along. This place is called Debate Policy. We are not in the steel Cage. This is the political side of the board. This is the side we debate on.

You propose allowing the deaths of 50,000 people just so we can invade a country and remove its president. Actually, you support the killing of 50,000 innocent people so it won't appear that we are invading a sovereign nation. That is wrong and not what being an American is about. How can you defend this position? How can you defend supporting the killing 50,000 innocent people?

5stringJeff
12-03-2007, 12:58 AM
Sorry bout that,

1. Looks like Chavez stole a Nation.
2. What has happened to the people of Venezuela?
3. Its sad that its come to this.
4. The crimes that are and will take place, are hideous!
5. God help the people there.
6. Story goes thusly:
7. I think its time we got this man out of power, what's this one man, compared to a whole Nation.
8. I guess in a way, we should allow him to go ahead and kill at least 50,000 people, before we step in.
9. That way we won't be seen as invading a sovereign nation.
10. I never thought I would see the day, but this is the time when many false prophets will arise.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

I'm no fan of socialism or Chavez, but on what grounds are we going to "get this man out of power?" Because we don't like him? That's not foreign policy, that's interfering with other country's sovereignity. At least with Iraq, there was credible evidence of an immediate threat to the US, not to mention a broken cease-fire from Gulf War I. Here, there's nothing that would allow the US to act militarily - not the least of which would be a Congressional act.

Kathianne
12-03-2007, 04:41 AM
Well it looks like Cheesy 'called the election in Venezuela a bit too quick. He lost, perhaps because Chavez couldn't steal enough votes, but lost by an official 2%.

Then Cheesy called for an illegal invasion. :rolleyes:

chesswarsnow
12-03-2007, 09:11 AM
Sorry bout that,




Well it looks like Cheesy 'called the election in Venezuela a bit too quick. He lost, perhaps because Chavez couldn't steal enough votes, but lost by an official 2%.

Then Cheesy called for an illegal invasion. :rolleyes:



1. Maybe it was my calling the election too soon that swayed it the way it ended up Granny?
2. Perhaps if I didn't state the obvious in the election perhaps things could of gotten real nasty over there.
3. Its a *GREAT DAY* for the people of Venezuela, they should be dancing in the streets!
4. They delivered Chavez a huge blow, to his plan to take over his Nation, *NATION STEALING*.
5. It was a close vote, and because it went the way it did, thousands up thousands of people lives were spared.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

hjmick
12-03-2007, 10:58 AM
1. Maybe it was my calling the election too soon that swayed it the way it ended up Granny?
2. Perhaps if I didn't state the obvious in the election perhaps things could of gotten real nasty over there.

Yeah, that's what it was. Your meaningless post on an otherwise obscure message board in the vast expanse that is the internet changed the course of a nation. Talk about a sanctimonious sense of self worth. :lmao:

Sea kelp.

chesswarsnow
12-03-2007, 11:05 AM
Sorry bout that,





Yeah, that's what it was. Your meaningless post on an otherwise obscure message board in the vast expanse that is the internet changed the course of a nation. Talk about a sanctimonious sense of self worth. :lmao:

Sea kelp.



1. Never under~estimate the power of the *CWN*, written word.
2. When you are, ( I ), *THE GREAT CWN* anything's possible.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

82Marine89
12-03-2007, 09:51 PM
Sorry bout that,

1. Never under~estimate the power of the *CWN*, written word.
2. When you are, ( I ), *THE GREAT CWN* anything's possible.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

So says the forum troll.

chesswarsnow
12-03-2007, 10:15 PM
Sorry bout that,




So says the forum troll.



1. Turd on aisle nine!
2. Can I get a thread ban for *82~LOSER~89*???

rEGARDS,
JamesofTexas

OCA
12-03-2007, 10:51 PM
Sorry bout that,







1. Turd on aisle nine!
2. Can I get a thread ban for *82~LOSER~89*???

rEGARDS,
JamesofTexas


WAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Someone called me a name! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!:laugh2:

Yurt
12-03-2007, 10:59 PM
Sorry bout that,







1. Turd on aisle nine!
2. Can I get a thread ban for *82~LOSER~89*???

rEGARDS,
JamesofTexas

you called Kath a granny, 82 a turd, and yet you call for someone to banned from this thread. you started the insults :poke:

82Marine89
12-03-2007, 11:35 PM
Sorry bout that,

1. Turd on aisle nine!
2. Can I get a thread ban for *82~LOSER~89*???

rEGARDS,
JamesofTexas

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/82Marine89/crying.gif

Psychoblues
12-04-2007, 01:26 AM
It just doesn't get worse than this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

chesswarsnow
12-04-2007, 09:00 AM
Sorry bout that,

1. I wished I could block certain posters from even posting on the threads I start.
2. Call it the *SHIT CANNED LIST*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

Psychoblues
12-07-2007, 01:43 AM
Which is worse?



Sorry bout that,

1. I wished I could block certain posters from even posting on the threads I start.
2. Call it the *SHIT CANNED LIST*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

The emoticons or the outlines?

Yurt
12-08-2007, 12:16 AM
Which is worse?




The emoticons or the outlines?

Dang, PB shows you up and you have what? Nothing.


:laugh2: