Leno fires staff

[avatar4321]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071201/tv_nm/leno_dc


"Some people were crying. Some people were screaming," said one employee speaking on condition of anonymity

I have a hard time feeling sorry for these guys. They refuse to do work and then they are shocked and upset when they get fired for it? Welcome to the real world. If you dont do work people arent going to pay you. This isn't a new concept. in fact, its common sense.

They took their chances when they decided to stop working. And they aren't going to get much sympathy from people for striking from jobs that already give them nice salaries and benefits. They had everything to lose, and little to gain. They just made a very bad gamble.

[Abbey Marie]

Oh, yeah, I'm crying for them...


The fact that some of Leno's writers are paid $500,000 or more annually also didn't sit well with suddenly out-of-work production staffers who make a fraction of that amount. Writers also are getting residuals on "Tonight Show" reruns that air during the strike.

The final indignation was a Christmas bonus that many thought lacking. Staffers with a couple of years on the job were given $200. Some higher-paid employees were awarded three days of salary or a bit more, about the same bonuses they got last year.

[5stringJeff]

They'd (the striking writers) better get back to work soon, or they'll all find themselves without jobs.

[trobinett]

I love it!

Its like baseball, or football players going on strike.

After they put their families in the poor house, they will blame someone else for their complete lack of common sense.

I'd black ball their sorry ass's and never let them back in Hollywood.

[April15]

Professional athletes are quit a different case than a working stiff. What Leno did was wrong. But then Leno is a person I have never liked. Now I have a reason to dislike him.
A good captain never forgets his crew.
Enjoy the weekend off it was brought to you by the unions.

[5stringJeff]

What Leno did was wrong.

It was wrong for Leno to fire a bunch of people who weren't doing their jobs?

[avatar4321]

Professional athletes are quit a different case than a working stiff. What Leno did was wrong. But then Leno is a person I have never liked. Now I have a reason to dislike him.
A good captain never forgets his crew.
Enjoy the weekend off it was brought to you by the unions.

I dont see how professional athletes are that much different than the writers. They both make obscenely more money than most people. Their actions are likely costing the shows millions of dollars and pissing off alot of viewers who would like to still be entertained.

Oh, and a good captain doesn't remember his crew when the mutiny on him. He makes them walk the plank and finds a better crew.

And contrary to your assertion, the weekends were given to use thousands of years ago by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[trobinett]

Professional athletes are quit a different case than a working stiff.

You'll get no argument from me on that statement.


What Leno did was wrong.

Explain why.


But then Leno is a person I have never liked. Now I have a reason to dislike him.

If you've never liked him, why do you need a reason to not like him?:poke:



A good captain never forgets his crew.

What ship have you been sailing on? The good ship lollipop.



Enjoy the weekend off it was brought to you by the unions.

Ain't shit I do, that has been brought to me by ANY fucking Union pal. I take the weekends off, when I EARN the weekend off.:salute::fu:

[April15]

You'll get no argument from me on that statement.



Explain why.



If you've never liked him, why do you need a reason to not like him?:poke: General principles just doesn't seem like a good reason.




What ship have you been sailing on? The good ship lollipop. The ship of life.




Ain't shit I do, that has been brought to me by ANY fucking Union pal. I take the weekends off, when I EARN the weekend off.:salute::fu:You do need to learn about samuel gompers and life as it would be without the advances made by union actions. A little humility might not be bad either.

[Mr. P]

They can all kiss my ass!

Has anyone else wondered why Leno or Conan O'Brien, both comedians, have not written their own stuff during the strike? Must be some UNION BS huh....

[REDWHITEBLUE2]

You do need to learn about samuel gompers and life as it would be without the advances made by union actions. A little humility might not be bad either.Back in the first half of the 20th century unions were a good thing ever since the 70's unions have done nothing but steal from the members and cause more jobs to be shipped overseas. all I got to say to all unions is :fu: fuck you you union bastards

[diuretic]

Is everybody here that's posting the anti-union stuff a CEO? I'm in exalted company it seems.

[trobinett]

You do need to learn about samuel gompers and life as it would be without the advances made by union actions. A little humility might not be bad either.

The only one here that needs to be learning anything is you!

Humility I've got in spades.

:pee:

[Kathianne]

Is everybody here that's posting the anti-union stuff a CEO? I'm in exalted company it seems.

Actually I think it has more to do with the 'work ethic' stuff we spoke of weeks ago. As April refers to Gompers, she has a point. What she fails to miss though were the strikes later, then again in 50's and 60's, causing widespread rejection of unions, from nearly all except the traditional guild type ones.

France we never wanted to be.

[April15]

Actually I think it has more to do with the 'work ethic' stuff we spoke of weeks ago. As April refers to Gompers, she has a point. What she fails to miss though were the strikes later, then again in 50's and 60's, causing widespread rejection of unions, from nearly all except the traditional guild type ones.

France we never wanted to be.The demise of the union for America has been the desire of boards of directors to get back to cheap-labor-high-profitability again. Ronald Reagen made a huge mark towards this end by his traffic controllers firings. This put corporations on notice that the government would not back the unions as was the case years before.
Also with the rise of manufacturing over seas the need for skilled workers has diminished here along with the unions that did the training of them through apprentteship programs. This has left America vulnerable to the whims of foreign manufacturers. As yet they have not taken advantage, but they will.
There are some major manufacturers of autos of foreign name plates that produce fine autos without the need for unions. These companies also use a different business model than American manufacturers.
I do believe in the unions for the working man.

[avatar4321]

The demise of the union for America has been the desire of boards of directors to get back to cheap-labor-high-profitability again. Ronald Reagen made a huge mark towards this end by his traffic controllers firings. This put corporations on notice that the government would not back the unions as was the case years before.
Also with the rise of manufacturing over seas the need for skilled workers has diminished here along with the unions that did the training of them through apprentteship programs. This has left America vulnerable to the whims of foreign manufacturers. As yet they have not taken advantage, but they will.
There are some major manufacturers of autos of foreign name plates that produce fine autos without the need for unions. These companies also use a different business model than American manufacturers.
I do believe in the unions for the working man.

I believe in working for the working man.

[Kathianne]

The demise of the union for America has been the desire of boards of directors to get back to cheap-labor-high-profitability again. Ronald Reagen made a huge mark towards this end by his traffic controllers firings. This put corporations on notice that the government would not back the unions as was the case years before.
Also with the rise of manufacturing over seas the need for skilled workers has diminished here along with the unions that did the training of them through apprentteship programs. This has left America vulnerable to the whims of foreign manufacturers. As yet they have not taken advantage, but they will.
There are some major manufacturers of autos of foreign name plates that produce fine autos without the need for unions. These companies also use a different business model than American manufacturers.
I do believe in the unions for the working man.

The air traffic controller strike was just the last nail, April. Once companies realized that the robber baron days were over, they did get with it. Granted the costs were high to those that fought those battles.

Problems came in though during WWII strikes, then after with rails, trucking, etc. People realized what was being paid, education involved, benefits received and said, "Get back to work."

[diuretic]

Actually I think it has more to do with the 'work ethic' stuff we spoke of weeks ago. As April refers to Gompers, she has a point. What she fails to miss though were the strikes later, then again in 50's and 60's, causing widespread rejection of unions, from nearly all except the traditional guild type ones.

France we never wanted to be.

That was an interesting discussion, the work ethic one.

I know this is a bit off topic so forgive me please, but the strikes of the 50s and 60s were, from memory, in the UK and in Australia s well. In Aus in the 1950s and 1960s the economy was better than it is now (I mean it really was better, our current-account deficit is giving the lie to ideas that our economy is a miracle, but enough of that for now) but strikes were commonplace. One thing that was different, I think, was that here our strikes were briefer than yours in the US, perhaps because ours were always shortened by judicial intervention (we used to have a centralised conciliation and arbitration system that was compulsory and had the force of law). It wasn't until the mid/late 1980s that strikes receded when we began the process of reforming our industrial (labor/labour) relations system.

France - traditionalism and joie de vivre. I still think the rest of the world should be more like France, slackers of the world unite!! :laugh2:

[Kathianne]

That was an interesting discussion, the work ethic one.

I know this is a bit off topic so forgive me please, but the strikes of the 50s and 60s were, from memory, in the UK and in Australia s well. In Aus in the 1950s and 1960s the economy was better than it is now (I mean it really was better, our current-account deficit is giving the lie to ideas that our economy is a miracle, but enough of that for now) but strikes were commonplace. One thing that was different, I think, was that here our strikes were briefer than yours in the US, perhaps because ours were always shortened by judicial intervention (we used to have a centralised conciliation and arbitration system that was compulsory and had the force of law). It wasn't until the mid/late 1980s that strikes receded when we began the process of reforming our industrial (labor/labour) relations system.

France - traditionalism and joie de vivre. I still think the rest of the world should be more like France, slackers of the world unite!! :laugh2:

The last sentence sums it up! :laugh2: Seriously, I think people took a look at what trash collectors were making. Then they said to themselves, "Wait a minute, how much education does that take. Granted it's a job few would want, but it's a very decent wage, with benefits." Because of the strikes, refuse collection is now around here: private, mostly Hispanic, 1 worker instead of 3." Great job the union did with that one. That's what people learned.

Then there is the steel industry and auto industry. Those geniuses not only did themselves out of jobs, but the country out of industries.

[5stringJeff]

Is everybody here that's posting the anti-union stuff a CEO?

No, just people with a work ethic, who don't need crutches or handouts to succeed in life.

[diuretic]

The last sentence sums it up! :laugh2: Seriously, I think people took a look at what trash collectors were making. Then they said to themselves, "Wait a minute, how much education does that take. Granted it's a job few would want, but it's a very decent wage, with benefits." Because of the strikes, refuse collection is now around here: private, mostly Hispanic, 1 worker instead of 3." Great job the union did with that one. That's what people learned.

Then there is the steel industry and auto industry. Those geniuses not only did themselves out of jobs, but the country out of industries.

I remember going to a lecture in Melbourne (Victoria, Aus) where a professor from Boston U was speaking to a small group of seniorunion people (which I was then) and he made mention that what did the steel industry in in the US was its inability to meet the challenges being presented by the mini-blast furnace business in Korea. So it was Bethlehem Steel v the Park/Lee etc mini industries and BS missed out. I'm over-simplifying it somewhat. But I'm not convinced about the arguments put forward that unions destroyed an industry. I mean that's not even a pyhrric victory is it? No, it was the failure of management.

Wage fixation is an interesting topic of itself (just reflecting on your point about wast collection.

[diuretic]

No, just people with a work ethic, who don't need crutches or handouts to succeed in life.

What does that mean? I mean in reality? It's a nice little comeback but it means nothing without a bit more body to it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a shot at people who do well for themselves by their own efforts, good luck to them, but even doctors have a union, is there anything wrong with people, especially the low-skilled, having a union to assist them get a fair deal?

[Kathianne]

I remember going to a lecture in Melbourne (Victoria, Aus) where a professor from Boston U was speaking to a small group of seniorunion people (which I was then) and he made mention that what did the steel industry in in the US was its inability to meet the challenges being presented by the mini-blast furnace business in Korea. So it was Bethlehem Steel v the Park/Lee etc mini industries and BS missed out. I'm over-simplifying it somewhat. But I'm not convinced about the arguments put forward that unions destroyed an industry. I mean that's not even a pyhrric victory is it? No, it was the failure of management.

Wage fixation is an interesting topic of itself (just reflecting on your point about wast collection.

We are both partially correct about the steel industry, (My dad was in management at one you mention.) The US corps did not update machinery as they should have, to keep up with the stock dividends, while increasing pay and benefits to workers. When the workers struck, they closed the plants. It no longer was possible to be competitive, other than in specialty steel, which is what my dad was in.

[Kathianne]

What does that mean? I mean in reality? It's a nice little comeback but it means nothing without a bit more body to it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a shot at people who do well for themselves by their own efforts, good luck to them, but even doctors have a union, is there anything wrong with people, especially the low-skilled, having a union to assist them get a fair deal?

Doctors are not unionized here.

[5stringJeff]

What does that mean? I mean in reality? It's a nice little comeback but it means nothing without a bit more body to it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a shot at people who do well for themselves by their own efforts, good luck to them, but even doctors have a union, is there anything wrong with people, especially the low-skilled, having a union to assist them get a fair deal?

Maybe I'm just calloused because my dad had to cross the picket line to keep food on our table, but I generally think union members depend too much on their unions to solve their problems for them. I see union membership as a crutch; people don't feel that they can make it in the world (or they're lazy and want protection) so they join a union. I feel (totally my personal opinion here) that if a person is generally able to succeed in life, they have no need to join a union; therefore, the only ones in unions are the ones who can't succeed.

[diuretic]

We are both partially correct about the steel industry, (My dad was in management at one you mention.) The US corps did not update machinery as they should have, to keep up with the stock dividends, while increasing pay and benefits to workers. When the workers struck, they closed the plants. It no longer was possible to be competitive, other than in specialty steel, which is what my dad was in.

The purpose of striking is to hit the company in the only place a company notices.

That's an interesting point about the specialty steel. That would seem to be an intelligent response when a low-cost newbie gets into your market. I used to live in a steel and shipbuilding town here. The shipyard went out of business, not due to unions, but due to Japan building ships more efficiently than our yard. Poor management couldn't see the threat let alone respond to it. The steel business went wobbly but recovered somewhat, again due to poor management practices, not picking up the shifts in the world steel market. The business that owned both of them packed up and moved solely into mining (BHP, which then amalgamated with Billiton, the South African company) because they saw more profit in digging up stuff and selling it to the world rather than manufacturing. Again, none of this was due to the unions, it was due to managers who couldn't keep up.

[diuretic]

Doctors are not unionized here.

AMA?

[diuretic]

Maybe I'm just calloused because my dad had to cross the picket line to keep food on our table, but I generally think union members depend too much on their unions to solve their problems for them. I see union membership as a crutch; people don't feel that they can make it in the world (or they're lazy and want protection) so they join a union. I feel (totally my personal opinion here) that if a person is generally able to succeed in life, they have no need to join a union; therefore, the only ones in unions are the ones who can't succeed.

If I'm an unskilled labourer my labour is not going to be worth much (all other things being equal). If I try and bargain with my employer for a few extra dollars and benefits I have no doubt that that my employer would find someone else. But if all the potential labourers got together and bargained collectively then they could get a decent wage. It's a bit easier for more skilled workers to get extra bucks but it's still a very good idea for them to get together to bargain collectively. Unions are a fine method of achieving those aims.

Those are the bare bones. Having said the above I have to also admit that there is potential for abuse of power by unions but then it goes for the employers as well. Sometimes there's an uncomfortable closeness between the two. I may have mentioned this before but I remember seeing a documentary about Bob White, the then president of the UAW (Canada) - later the CAW - and his negotiations on behalf of his members with GM in Canada. White had some fairly vigorous discussions with GM but they were nothing to the fights he had with the UAW leadership in Detroit. They tore into White because he dared to bargain for an increase in the contract whereas in Detroit the UAW had just bargained for clawbacks to keep jobs. The UAW leadership was furious with White. From their luxurious offices they screamed at him not to negotiate an increase in pay...and we know why don't we?

The right of workers to organise is a right none should be denied. That unions can sometimes end up being instruments of someone else's ambitions is quite true. But that's an argument for a return to grassroots democracy in unions and it's another argument but it's one I support strongly.

Bob White was an example of a courageous and effective union leader who was having none of the crap the UAW was handing out.

Sorry I went a bit off topic. But I do need to make the point that while I strongly support unionism I don't support excesses and I'll condemn them as quickly as I will the excesses of the bosses.

[Sitarro]

My brother was an airline pilot up until last week, he was forced to retire because he turned sixty years old......... I asked him what the pilot's union had done for him since he had paid them over 100,000 dollars in dues over his career. Surprisingly, the union he was forced to be a part of and pay a fortune in dues not only didn't do anything to help he and other members but fought against a Bill that was before Congress to change the age limit.

Unions are in the business of extortion, they turn their members into low life scum by pitting them against the people that provide them with jobs. They demean fellow workers that refuse to cooperate by threatening them and calling them scabs. I have no respect or need for unions, screw them.

[Kathianne]

AMA?

That's an association, much like the Bar for law. Not a union.

[Kathianne]

The purpose of striking is to hit the company in the only place a company notices.

That's an interesting point about the specialty steel. That would seem to be an intelligent response when a low-cost newbie gets into your market. I used to live in a steel and shipbuilding town here. The shipyard went out of business, not due to unions, but due to Japan building ships more efficiently than our yard. Poor management couldn't see the threat let alone respond to it. The steel business went wobbly but recovered somewhat, again due to poor management practices, not picking up the shifts in the world steel market. The business that owned both of them packed up and moved solely into mining (BHP, which then amalgamated with Billiton, the South African company) because they saw more profit in digging up stuff and selling it to the world rather than manufacturing. Again, none of this was due to the unions, it was due to managers who couldn't keep up.

Yup, my dad's division ended up becoming another company, basically. Stainless Steel and carbon tubing. Exact specs to some weird decimal. Used for things in nuclear power plants, medical, etc.

Undermining reinvestment though, were union forced benefits and salaries. They were priced out of competing. The UAW did it too, though may have recognized it in time, for what remained.

Sure robots may put some out of business, but if a company can't compete, they can't keep up, much less expand. That's what too many don't recognize. Are companies altruistic, hell no! At the same time, they are out to turn a profit, which they can't do if they go out of business.

[diuretic]

My brother was an airline pilot up until last week, he was forced to retire because he turned sixty years old......... I asked him what the pilot's union had done for him since he had paid them over 100,000 dollars in dues over his career. Surprisingly, the union he was forced to be a part of and pay a fortune in dues not only didn't do anything to help he and other members but fought against a Bill that was before Congress to change the age limit.

Unions are in the business of extortion, they turn their members into low life scum by pitting them against the people that provide them with jobs. They demean fellow workers that refuse to cooperate by threatening them and calling them scabs. I have no respect or need for unions, screw them.

How do I respond to a gross generalisation such as, Unions are in the business of extortion, they turn their members into low life scum by pitting them against the people that provide them with jobs. They demean fellow workers that refuse to cooperate by threatening them and calling them scabs. I have no respect or need for unions, screw them." Of course I can't, but i can point out that it's a gross generalisation. It can be safely ignored.

[JackDaniels]

The idea of a workers union is one that is central to free market economics.

For example, someone who believes in free market economics and libertarianism should understand the important and necessary roles that unions play.

The problem is that in the modern sense, unions often go overboard, over control their membership and in the end, become more that what they were originally designed to rally against: bureaucracy and corporatist.

[diuretic]

That's an association, much like the Bar for law. Not a union.

Do they control entrance to the profession? Ours does and so do our various colleges (eg surgeons). Guild behaviour.

And our lawyers do as well, they work with the three universities in our state (hey we've only got 1.5 million people, we're very small) to ensure that numbers admitted into law are managed and they (the Law Society - http://www.lssa.asn.au/) control the post-graduate (law here is usually an undergraduate degree) diploma which a lawyer is required to undertake in order to practice. Closed shop? You bet it is, the trades unions can only look on in envy.

[diuretic]

Yup, my dad's division ended up becoming another company, basically. Stainless Steel and carbon tubing. Exact specs to some weird decimal. Used for things in nuclear power plants, medical, etc.

Undermining reinvestment though, were union forced benefits and salaries. They were priced out of competing. The UAW did it too, though may have recognized it in time, for what remained.

Sure robots may put some out of business, but if a company can't compete, they can't keep up, much less expand. That's what too many don't recognize. Are companies altruistic, hell no! At the same time, they are out to turn a profit, which they can't do if they go out of business.

It's a difficult symbiotic relationship that can sometimes go awry. Unions need to ensure their members' employers are in good condition, I suppose they understand that. No, companies are far from altruistic, they're actually sociopathic but accepting that goes a long way to understanding them and dealing with them.

[diuretic]

The idea of a workers union is one that is central to free market economics.

For example, someone who believes in free market economics and libertarianism should understand the important and necessary roles that unions play.

The problem is that in the modern sense, unions often go overboard, over control their membership and in the end, become more that what they were originally designed to rally against: bureaucracy and corporatist.

I remember reading about unions in the old Soviet style command economies. I also remember thinking they were about as effective as Japanese company unions. That is, they weren't. Good point that they are more effective in a western style economy (can I say "mixed" economy as opposed to a "command" economy?)

And definitely yes, unions do become bureaucratic and corporatist. I mentioned earlier the lecture I attended in Melbourne to listen to the Boston U professor (I wish I could think of his name, he was really interesting). He pointed out how unions develop and I'll cut this down a bit but this was his theory, that a union goes through phases:

1. Organising where there is no union. Dangerous, difficult, hard work. Heroes are the in the field organisers who build the membership.
2. Contract negotiations. Once the union has been built so that it can be recognised then contract negotiations take place in collective bargaining situations. Heroes are the negotiators who get good (hopefully) contracts for their members.
3. Bureaucracy. This the fat and complacent time. The union is powerful, it has a political voice, its senior officers can go cheek by jowl with the CEOs of big companies. Here is the point where I'm always reminded of that part of Orwell's "Animal Farm" where it became difficult to tell the pigs from the humans. That's when the union becomes a vehicle for self-serving union bureaucrats who are more interested in their own career progression (sometimes into politics) than the interests of the members. This is when the union's staff is recruited from universities and not the shop floor. Granted there is a need to build up expertise but not in the important policy positions where elected members should prevail. Heroes (and I used the word advisedly) are the bosses and bureaucrats.
4. Decline and reform and rebuilding. Like the Fall of the Roman Empire the union decays until it's weakened and just about dead. it has to be resuscitated again, reformed, rebuilt, with the same spirit that the original organisers showed. Heroes, the rebuilders.

And so it goes.

[April15]

The idea of a workers union is one that is central to free market economics.

For example, someone who believes in free market economics and libertarianism should understand the important and necessary roles that unions play.

The problem is that in the modern sense, unions often go overboard, over control their membership and in the end, become more that what they were originally designed to rally against: bureaucracy and corporatist.Yes this does happen. That is why union members need to attend meetings and take an active roll in the union besides just getting the benefits.

[Cheyenne]

....Must be some UNION BS huh....They screwed up this time! :coffee:

[Mr. P]

They screwed up this time! :coffee:

I think a union screws up every TIME they try to bring a company or corporation to the brink of failure through what amounts to extortion by the workforce.

UNIONS SUCK!

[diuretic]

Yes this does happen. That is why union members need to attend meetings and take an active roll in the union besides just getting the benefits.

That's the best antidote, but unfortunately human nature militates against it (Robert Michels wrote about this phenomenon).

[diuretic]

I think a union screws up every TIME they try to bring a company or corporation to the brink of failure through what amounts to extortion by the workforce.

UNIONS SUCK!

A union shouldn't try and destroy a business, it throws its members out of work if it does. But job actions such as strikes are legitimate tools to use to pressure the employer in negotiations.

[Mr. P]

A union shouldn't try and destroy a business, it throws its members out of work if it does. But job actions such as strikes are legitimate tools to use to pressure the employer in negotiations.

UNIONS SUCK! Guess ya missed that part. :slap:

[April15]

Maybe I'm just calloused because my dad had to cross the picket line to keep food on our table, but I generally think union members depend too much on their unions to solve their problems for them. I see union membership as a crutch; people don't feel that they can make it in the world (or they're lazy and want protection) so they join a union. I feel (totally my personal opinion here) that if a person is generally able to succeed in life, they have no need to join a union; therefore, the only ones in unions are the ones who can't succeed.I find that as a union employer it is more productive to hire from the hall than off the street. I worked for years in the union and then went out on my own to become a concrete contractor.

[diuretic]

UNIONS SUCK! Guess ya missed that part. :slap:

I didn't miss it - I ignored it :laugh2:

I do that, ignore stuff I mean. When a post or a part of a post doesn't make a point then I just ignore it. :coffee:

[Mr. P]

I didn't miss it - I ignored it :laugh2:

I do that, ignore stuff I mean. When a post or a part of a post doesn't make a point then I just ignore it. :coffee:

Fine...that doesn't change the fact that UNIONS SUCK!

[April15]

I didn't miss it - I ignored it :laugh2:

I do that, ignore stuff I mean. When a post or a part of a post doesn't make a point then I just ignore it. :coffee:Apparently some posters ignore debate or parts that do make sense. I wanted to rep u but!

[diuretic]

Fine...that doesn't change the fact that UNIONS SUCK!

But it's not a fact, it's an opinion and we all know about opinions :laugh2:

[diuretic]

Apparently some posters ignore debate or parts that do make sense. I wanted to rep u but!

:laugh2:

We're all free to do take notice of what we will I suppose! I do like it when I'm proven wrong and I can be educated on a point. I get a bit worried when I think I'm right and then no-one rebuts me....I wonder what's going on :coffee:

And thank you, it's the thought that counts :salute:

[Mr. P]

But it's not a fact, it's an opinion and we all know about opinions :laugh2:

No opinion...fact..if unions were so great MOST people would be members.

Fact is only those who can't perform are members ...a very small % of the workforce overall, and many of them are FORCED to be members.

Did I say UNIONS SUCK!

[diuretic]

No opinion...fact..if unions were so great MOST people would be members.

That's a point, but of course if effective unions have been blocked by legislation or it's just too damn difficult to organise due to legislation, then that blunts your point somewhat.




Fact is only those who can't perform are members ...a very small % of the workforce overall, and many of them are FORCED to be members.

Do you have legislation that requires people to be in a union? That's weird. I know some states forbid collective bargaining for some occupations but forcing people to join a union??



Did I say UNIONS SUCK!

Yeah, yeah....still an opinion. :laugh2:

[Hagbard Celine]

Professional athletes are quit a different case than a working stiff. What Leno did was wrong. But then Leno is a person I have never liked. Now I have a reason to dislike him.
A good captain never forgets his crew.
Enjoy the weekend off it was brought to you by the unions.

:clap:

[Sitarro]

As most of you know, I work for a major airline. I work on the ramp doing a wide variety of positions...... outage relief. A union has been trying to get into the ramp personnel group of over 8000 people for 12 years, this year it's the Transportation Workers Union. These guys sit at the entrance day and night, waiting as we get off the employee bus. They sit there waving and talking to us as if they are our best friends and if you are foolish enough to stop they recite the script that the union gives them very well, it is mostly bullshit. They exaggerate and outright lie about the company we work for and tell stories about how great other airline employees have it under their mother like care. The weakest minded of the workers stop and suck it all in and then go on to spread the crap and exaggerate it further, they are some of the worst workers that the company employs. If you try to discuss and reason with them in a logical manner, it always ends up with them losing it and getting into a shouting match, typical union bullying tactics. They pitt the workers against management and the pilots, mechanics and flight attendants against all of in a class warfare scenario(very much like the Democrats do, no wonder, they are one and the same).

What it boils down to is........ there are many that chose to stay on the ramp for 20 years and they want to classify that as a career...... it's not. One could train chimpanzees to do most of the positions on the ramp and would get more professional work than they get out of a great deal of the idiots out there. There are 48000 jobs at this company and they move people up from within, someone that stays on the ramp for 20 years is an idiot with absolutely no ambition....... they believe the "union" will save them from the mistakes they have made over their life. They don't care about the health of the company or how little they actually contribute, they just want what they've been told is theirs by the union.

Unions are a business(leeches or fleas would be more accurate), they pay those jerks that sit at the bus stop to spread their lies. They find the right employees that are already working at the company and pay them to spread the lies from within, it is so obvious to anyone with a brain. 8000 employees paying an average of 40 dollars dues a month comes to 3,840,000 dollars a year...... pretty good money for a bunch of jerk offs that suck companies dry.

Like Mr.P so eloquently put it...........
UNIONS SUCK!

[Pale Rider]

They can all kiss my ass!

Has anyone else wondered why Leno or Conan O'Brien, both comedians, have not written their own stuff during the strike? Must be some UNION BS huh....

I used to watch Leno, and actually thought some of his stuff was funny. I saw him in concert a long, long time ago in Florida, like back in '86. He was still just a relative nobody doing stand up. He did his "what's my beef" bit. It cracked me up. He still also plays the Silver Legacy here in Reno once and awhile. I had no idea he still did stand up. But when I heard he was going to give his show to that moronic, liberal, carrot top, NOT funny, asswad O'brien, I lost all respect for him. Fuck him.

[JimmyAteWorld]

Back in the first half of the 20th century unions were a good thing ever since the 70's unions have done nothing but steal from the members and cause more jobs to be shipped overseas. all I got to say to all unions is :fu: fuck you you union bastards

I'm getting in late, I know...

I agree. Unions have a foundation of a great idea but have pretty much sent things full circle. Today, it's largely the unions that are making unreasonable demands and showing signs of greed. Thank the unions for the weekend off? I've worked places that weren't union that gave me the weekend off, but okay, thanks for something that's been around for almost a century. Now, how about you stop doing your part to drive up the cost of living and making a work environment where deburr hands control the supervisors.

[JimmyAteWorld]

They can all kiss my ass!

Has anyone else wondered why Leno or Conan O'Brien, both comedians, have not written their own stuff during the strike? Must be some UNION BS huh....

Carson and Letterman wrote their own stuff during the writers strike years ago and they did okay. Coming up with enough new stuff to fill five days a week could be pretty demanding without a staff and I don't think Leno or O'Brien have the ability to go it on their own. Of course, there's also the fact that the strike will eventually end and they will have to go back to work with some of the people on strike. Coming up with their own material and running new shows could make a bad working enviroment once everybody returns.

[5stringJeff]

Sorry I went a bit off topic. But I do need to make the point that while I strongly support unionism I don't support excesses and I'll condemn them as quickly as I will the excesses of the bosses.

Fair enough. :beer:

[5stringJeff]

Do you have legislation that requires people to be in a union? That's weird. I know some states forbid collective bargaining for some occupations but forcing people to join a union??

Yes. About half of the states have laws that allow unions/companies to create "union-only" shops. To get hired by that employer, you must agree to join the union and pay dues. (State governments have those agreements with the teacher's unions in such states, which is one of the reasons that public education is so frustrating.)

The other half of states are "right-to-work" states, meaning that you have the right to work without belonging to a union. Why this right isn't fundemental is beyond me.

[trobinett]

There was a time for Unions, that time isn't NOW.

As the second hand on ALL clocks go tick, tick, so has the clock for Unions.

I think most blue collar workers will agree, there was a time, but as in many things today, that TIME has passed.

UNIONS truly do SUCK.:pee:

[avatar4321]

I'm getting in late, I know...

I agree. Unions have a foundation of a great idea but have pretty much sent things full circle. Today, it's largely the unions that are making unreasonable demands and showing signs of greed. Thank the unions for the weekend off? I've worked places that weren't union that gave me the weekend off, but okay, thanks for something that's been around for almost a century. Now, how about you stop doing your part to drive up the cost of living and making a work environment where deburr hands control the supervisors.

The weekend is far more than a century old. more like the beginning of civilization old.

[diuretic]

Yes. About half of the states have laws that allow unions/companies to create "union-only" shops. To get hired by that employer, you must agree to join the union and pay dues. (State governments have those agreements with the teacher's unions in such states, which is one of the reasons that public education is so frustrating.)

The other half of states are "right-to-work" states, meaning that you have the right to work without belonging to a union. Why this right isn't fundemental is beyond me.

It's been many years in Aus since the old "no ticket, no job" ("ticket" being your certification that you're in the union) and we still have civilisation as we know it. I'm pro-union, I'm not pro-compulsory unionism. If a union does a good job people will join up.

[diuretic]

The weekend is far more than a century old. more like the beginning of civilization old.

It's probably more useful to look at working hours.

http://www.8hourday.org.au/

21 April 1856 the Stonemasons union in Victoria, Australia took action and got the first 8-hour working day in the world.

And I would think you enjoy Labor Day? http://tinyurl.com/6cqcc

There will always be a place for unions, especially when you think there's no place for unions.

[Hagbard Celine]

I'm getting in late, I know...

I agree. Unions have a foundation of a great idea but have pretty much sent things full circle. Today, it's largely the unions that are making unreasonable demands and showing signs of greed. Thank the unions for the weekend off? I've worked places that weren't union that gave me the weekend off, but okay, thanks for something that's been around for almost a century. Now, how about you stop doing your part to drive up the cost of living and making a work environment where deburr hands control the supervisors.

(shakes head) Read up mo-mo. The two-day weekend is a product of union labor forces.
Weekend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend)

[JimmyAteWorld]

The weekend is far more than a century old. more like the beginning of civilization old.

Yeah... Thanks for that. Weekends have been around a lot longer than a century, but workers have not always had the option of not working on the weekend.

More to the point: When unions first formed, there was a need for them. They helped win simple, basic rights for a lot of workers. Today, unions are largely made up of lazy, arrogent people that are unreasonable in their demands.

[JimmyAteWorld]

(shakes head) Read up mo-mo. The two-day weekend is a product of union labor forces.
Weekend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend)

Get your eyes checked poo-poo. Read again.

You.................................. The point.

See if you can get those two things a little closer together.

[Hagbard Celine]

Get your eyes checked poo-poo. Read again.

You.................................. The point.

See if you can get those two things a little closer together.


The early industrial period in Europe saw a six-day work week with only Sunday off, but some workers had no days off at all. The labour and workers rights movements and campaigns by trade unionists in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century saw a five day work week introduced as Saturday became a day of rest and relaxation.
Wiki Weekend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend)
Jesus Christ you're thick.

[JimmyAteWorld]

Wiki Weekend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weekend)
Jesus Christ you're thick.

Dumbass.

I didn't say weekends off being generally accepted weren't due to unions when they first formed. There were, believe it or not, places to work where weekends were not required, but for the average worker unions did help to provide it. If you opened your eyes and actually read the post you would see that I said nothing about that, I said I had worked places that were not union that did not require me to work weekends, then said if people wanted me to thank unions for that it was fine by me.

Now, dig through that waste of a brain and see if you can come up with something in the last two or three decades I should thank unions for.

[Hagbard Celine]

Dumbass.

I didn't say weekends off being generally accepted weren't due to unions when they first formed. There were, believe it or not, places to work where weekends were not required, but for the average worker unions did help to provide it. If you opened your eyes and actually read the post you would see that I said nothing about that, I said I had worked places that were not union that did not require me to work weekends, then said if people wanted me to thank unions for that it was fine by me.

Now, dig through that waste of a brain and see if you can come up with something in the last two or three decades I should thank unions for.

Uh you didn't? Because you wrote this:

...Thank the unions for the weekend off? I've worked places that weren't union that gave me the weekend off, but okay, thanks for something that's been around for almost a century.

Imbecile :rolleyes: If you're not a member of a union, how do expect to gain anything from them? That's like cursing God for not letting you win the lottery when you've never actually bought a ticket. Workers in this country already enjoy a standard 40-hour workweek, a two-day weekend, most have some type of benefits package, pension, etc. Mostly thanks to the work unions did in the early 20th century. Now if you can't recognize the value of unions after all that, then you're hopeless. However, I'll leave you with this one last point: just because workers enjoy many benefits today that they haven't always had, that doesn't mean they aren't susceptible to being taken advantage of by their bosses. The nature of business is to increase the bottom line. Many times that means stiffing the workers. Unions protect workers from this sort of bullying.
In the case we're discussing here, writers' work is being distributed over the Internet and is being profited from by the companies they work for, yet the writers, who wrote, produced, edited the material, don't recieve a dime. Is it not their right to demand some form of compensation? You tell me hotshot.

[JimmyAteWorld]

Uh you didn't? Because you wrote this:


Imbecile :rolleyes:

Again you've missed the point. When unions first formed, they did a lot of good. Today, they don't. Is that dumbed down enough for you, dipshit?

Tell you what, you just keep arguing points that arn't being made, I have better things to do.

[Hagbard Celine]

Again you've missed the point. When unions first formed, they did a lot of good. Today, they don't. Is that dumbed down enough for you, dipshit?

Tell you what, you just keep arguing points that arn't being made, I have better things to do.

Aww, boohoo. Caught with his foot in the trap and all he can do is knaw it off and crawl away...as a tripod. :laugh:

[JimmyAteWorld]

Uh you didn't? Because you wrote this:


Imbecile :rolleyes: If you're not a member of a union, how do expect to gain anything from them? That's like cursing God for not letting you win the lottery when you've never actually bought a ticket. Workers in this country already enjoy a standard 40-hour workweek, a two-day weekend, most have some type of benefits package, pension, etc. Mostly thanks to the work unions did in the early 20th century. Now if you can't recognize the value of unions after all that, then you're hopeless. However, I'll leave you with this one last point: just because workers enjoy many benefits today that they haven't always had, that doesn't mean they aren't susceptible to being taken advantage of by their bosses. The nature of business is to increase the bottom line. Many times that means stiffing the workers. Unions protect workers from this sort of bullying.

In a round about way, you finally got the point. Anything unions did that was a basic benefit were gained years ago. Today they make unreasonable demands. I have no problem with a union that is there to protect basic rights, but most want to put workers in a power position. This has been a major factor in the rise of cost of living, fewer jobs, and companies moving elsewhere. Most unions overreach and ask for too much.

By the way, you know what they say about the word assume? I am a member of a union. There are a few of us that hope to balance things out, and if the work enviroment is going to be controlled by the union, I want to have my vote.

[JimmyAteWorld]

Aww, boohoo. Caught with his foot in the trap and all he can do is knaw it off and crawl away...as a tripod. :laugh:

The foot is fine. I do however feel my IQ drop every time I read one of your inane posts.