Underlying premises of society

[avatar4321]

I've been thinking lately how many of the underlying assumptions of society are a result of the Christian roots of western society. I know I've been studying some of the premises we use and I don't even always recognize them as Christian and I am familiar with Christianity and Christian thought. Alot of the premises that built our western society are Christian in origin and we don't even realize it.

So it bothers me when people fail to recognize the origins of our premises and are trying to remove Christianity from western society. Because, while it may not happen overnight, removing Christianity from Western society will also remove many of the premises that act as a foundation for our modern society.

Look at human rights. Underlying them is an ideal of human worth that derives from Christian teaching. Thomas Jefferson that it was self evident that all men are created equal. But really it's only self evident when you share a moral background of the worth of souls. For thousands of years prior to the establishment of our nation, this truth was not self evident. Societies and cultures generally took a view that some people were better than others, IE the elites and nobles of society were better than everyone else.

Yet if our Christian foundation is uprooted and replaced with other values (regardless of the source) how difficult would it be to imagine a world where the equality of mankind is not viewed as a self evident truth? is it really that difficult to imagine a world where a Social Darwinian approach is used where people believe in survival of the fittest, that the strongest have a right to take what they want from the weaker? Or perhaps an Islamic extremist point of view where women and children are inferiors who shouldnt be allowed out in public with a man? Where would our equal rights be without the Christian premises underlying it?

Or another Christian premise: the world has laws that govern it and we can learn these through observation, reason, and revelation. It's a claim that there is an absolute truth and it's discoverable. This is the basic premise of our entire scientific existance in the western world. Without this belief that the universe has laws that govern it and that we can learn them, what motivation is there to study the sciences? What is the point of trying to learn without some sort of faith that we can learn it?

We may not see the fallout from these premises immediately, but over time things will change. And chances are a society without these basic premises (among many others) would be much worse than the society we have now.

There are many other premises that underline our society. I was surprised studying law how many of the ideas i found within them derive from judeo-christian ideals. In property and contracts in particular there were premises I saw from Christianity that helped me understand better my faith and the law.

Society is balanced on the edge between our Christian past and an unknown future. We may be the first generation in centuries that ends up leaving our children in a worse position than we were blessed with. Obviously it's still too early to know for sure.

But don't think I am writing this to be all doom and gloom. I am writing this because I have a great hope for the future. And it starts first with us taking responsibility for our own lives and embracing the values which our civilization was built upon. And once we do that for ourselves, we need to have children and teach them the truth. We need to teach them how God is no respecter of persons and how Christ came to save all men if they will accept His grace. We need to teach them personal responsibility and we do that through faith and repentence. We need to teach them the Christian work ethic that created this nation. We need to teach them humility. We need to teach them to let virtue garnish their thoughts unceasingly that their confidence may wax strong in the presence of the Lord and to have their bowels full of Charity towards all people.

In short, we need to know our faith, we need to live it, and we need to teach it to our posterity and those around us. We need to become Christ-like.

If none of us do, if we sit around and hope someone else will do it. If we think that there is nothing we can do. Then we will help rush our civilization to its end. And we will lose the freedom we cherish as will all those not of our faith who depend on us.

Like I said, it's just what's been on my mind lately.

[carbonbased]

This is pretty thoughtful. I would like to know what time frame you see before yourself when talking about our christian heritage? A decade, century or millenuim?

I don't come to the exact same conclusions (or questions) as you do, and I am not really sure why.

[Hagbard Celine]

I think this is really melodramatic. There's no danger of a "survival of the fittest" philosophy becoming any more prevalent than it already is. Capitalism is a survival of the fittest strategy. Survival of the fittest is the most natural and basic way for society to function because it goes in lockstep with human nature. If we really held "all men are created equal" as a dogma, we'd be Communist. And that will never happen. All this is, is a BS anti-Darwinism thread posted with the intent to show proof of Christianity's monopoly on morality, which is a crock. :rolleyes: Even if for some crazy reason Christianity was suddenly and inexplicably snuffed-out, knowledge of the Golden rule would still be applied. The Constitution would still be extant. And equality of men would still be the dominant philosophy. It's so deeply ingrained into the Western mindset that, short of total anarchy, any semblance of society would still apply it universally.
Your ridiculous fears of "lib" rule are unjustified. I'm sick of this BS coming from the rightwingers on this board as if left-wingers are some kind of subhumans. If we're so f*cking evil and incompetent and if your philosophy is so superior, why are you so frickin' scared of us and what we think? I'd take a good look at what made me so unbelievably unconfident about my own philosophy that I felt the need to put down the opposing one at every juncture before I said one more word about an opposing viewpoint. You need to get a grip. If your Christian, moral high-ground Conservative philosophy is really backed by a deity, you should have nothing to worry about. Why then is your confidence in it so low that you feel the need for constant affirmation?

[diuretic]

I think this is really melodramatic. There's no danger of a "survival of the fittest" philosophy becoming any more prevalent than it already is. Capitalism is a survival of the fittest strategy. Survival of the fittest is the most natural and basic way for society to function because it goes in lockstep with human nature. If we really held "all men are created equal" as a dogma, we'd be Communist. And that will never happen. All this is, is a BS anti-Darwinism thread posted with the intent to show proof of Christianity's monopoly on morality, which is a crock. :rolleyes: Even if for some crazy reason Christianity was suddenly and inexplicably snuffed-out, knowledge of the Golden rule would still be applied. The Constitution would still be extant. And equality of men would still be the dominant philosophy. It's so deeply ingrained into the Western mindset that, short of total anarchy, any semblance of society would still apply it universally.
Your ridiculous fears of "lib" rule are unjustified. I'm sick of this BS coming from the rightwingers on this board as if left-wingers are some kind of subhumans. If we're so f*cking evil and incompetent and if your philosophy is so superior, why are you so frickin' scared of us and what we think? I'd take a good look at what made me so unbelievably unconfident about my own philosophy that I felt the need to put down the opposing one at every juncture before I said one more word about an opposing viewpoint. You need to get a grip. If your Christian, moral high-ground Conservative philosophy is really backed by a deity, you should have nothing to worry about. Why then is your confidence in it so low that you feel the need for constant affirmation?

Survival of the fittest is the most natural and basic way for society to function because it goes in lockstep with human nature.

No it doesn't. The idea of "survival of the fittest" has nothing to do with a society but everything to do with the continuing existence of a species, the key concept being adaptation. A society implies cooperation. Before capitalism was invented there were many forms of social organisation, capitalism is just the latest and the most effective, there's nothing "natural" about it, like all economic systems used by humans it is a human artifact. Don't get sucked in by the propagandists who want us all to think there's only one way of running an economy.

[Hagbard Celine]

Survival of the fittest is the most natural and basic way for society to function because it goes in lockstep with human nature.

No it doesn't. The idea of "survival of the fittest" has nothing to do with a society but everything to do with the continuing existence of a species, the key concept being adaptation. A society implies cooperation. Before capitalism was invented there were many forms of social organisation, capitalism is just the latest and the most effective, there's nothing "natural" about it, like all economic systems used by humans it is a human artifact. Don't get sucked in by the propagandists who want us all to think there's only one way of running an economy.

The way capitalism works is the businesses that are most capable of keeping their prices low, their product quality high and the customers coming through their doors are the ones that survive. If they can't do that, they do not survive: Survival of the fittest (http://www.busmanagement.com/pastissue/article.asp?art=26120&issue=156).
True, the phrase was originally coined to refer to the process of evolution exclusively, however you can't argue that the phrase hasn't evolved to refer more liberally to systems other than evolution in popular/contemporary vernacular. Even the original poster utilized this casual usage. :poke:

[Hobbit]

Are we really so far from a Darwinistic society? It is already socially acceptable to murder an unborn child if that child might have a genetic defect. This goes directly against 'all men are created equal,' and instead go to 'most men are created equal, but others are created inferior and will lead a life not worth living unless we kill them first.'

As a side note, remember the word 'created.' All men are created equal. Communism assumes that all men are equal. Everybody starts out naked, crying, and tiny, but some people end up on top of an office building in a $10,000 suit while others end up living in squalor because they're too lazy to even clean their house, much less get a job.

[JohnDoe]

I've been thinking lately how many of the underlying assumptions of society are a result of the Christian roots of western society. I know I've been studying some of the premises we use and I don't even always recognize them as Christian and I am familiar with Christianity and Christian thought. Alot of the premises that built our western society are Christian in origin and we don't even realize it.

So it bothers me when people fail to recognize the origins of our premises and are trying to remove Christianity from western society. Because, while it may not happen overnight, removing Christianity from Western society will also remove many of the premises that act as a foundation for our modern society.

Look at human rights. Underlying them is an ideal of human worth that derives from Christian teaching. Thomas Jefferson that it was self evident that all men are created equal. But really it's only self evident when you share a moral background of the worth of souls. For thousands of years prior to the establishment of our nation, this truth was not self evident. Societies and cultures generally took a view that some people were better than others, IE the elites and nobles of society were better than everyone else.

Yet if our Christian foundation is uprooted and replaced with other values (regardless of the source) how difficult would it be to imagine a world where the equality of mankind is not viewed as a self evident truth? is it really that difficult to imagine a world where a Social Darwinian approach is used where people believe in survival of the fittest, that the strongest have a right to take what they want from the weaker? Or perhaps an Islamic extremist point of view where women and children are inferiors who shouldnt be allowed out in public with a man? Where would our equal rights be without the Christian premises underlying it?

Or another Christian premise: the world has laws that govern it and we can learn these through observation, reason, and revelation. It's a claim that there is an absolute truth and it's discoverable. This is the basic premise of our entire scientific existance in the western world. Without this belief that the universe has laws that govern it and that we can learn them, what motivation is there to study the sciences? What is the point of trying to learn without some sort of faith that we can learn it?

We may not see the fallout from these premises immediately, but over time things will change. And chances are a society without these basic premises (among many others) would be much worse than the society we have now.

There are many other premises that underline our society. I was surprised studying law how many of the ideas i found within them derive from judeo-christian ideals. In property and contracts in particular there were premises I saw from Christianity that helped me understand better my faith and the law.

Society is balanced on the edge between our Christian past and an unknown future. We may be the first generation in centuries that ends up leaving our children in a worse position than we were blessed with. Obviously it's still too early to know for sure.

But don't think I am writing this to be all doom and gloom. I am writing this because I have a great hope for the future. And it starts first with us taking responsibility for our own lives and embracing the values which our civilization was built upon. And once we do that for ourselves, we need to have children and teach them the truth. We need to teach them how God is no respecter of persons and how Christ came to save all men if they will accept His grace. We need to teach them personal responsibility and we do that through faith and repentence. We need to teach them the Christian work ethic that created this nation. We need to teach them humility. We need to teach them to let virtue garnish their thoughts unceasingly that their confidence may wax strong in the presence of the Lord and to have their bowels full of Charity towards all people.

In short, we need to know our faith, we need to live it, and we need to teach it to our posterity and those around us. We need to become Christ-like.

If none of us do, if we sit around and hope someone else will do it. If we think that there is nothing we can do. Then we will help rush our civilization to its end. And we will lose the freedom we cherish as will all those not of our faith who depend on us.

Like I said, it's just what's been on my mind lately.

Wow Avatar!

A very thought provoking post. The second one in the same day that this site has had, in my opinion, the first one being Trinity's this morning.

I think it is in the hands of parents now, to continue the knowledge that we were given our self worth and value, by God or by our Creator....we are all equal as human beings, and yes, that means even the people in Iraq, and the people in Mexico etc. Without these inalienable rights, (rights given to us by a Creator and not by man) as part in our Constitution, preamble and Declaration of independence we would have been a country with Royalty or land owners and peasants and serfs.

jd

[Hagbard Celine]

Are we really so far from a Darwinistic society? It is already socially acceptable to murder an unborn child if that child might have a genetic defect. This goes directly against 'all men are created equal,' and instead go to 'most men are created equal, but others are created inferior and will lead a life not worth living unless we kill them first.'

As a side note, remember the word 'created.' All men are created equal. Communism assumes that all men are equal. Everybody starts out naked, crying, and tiny, but some people end up on top of an office building in a $10,000 suit while others end up living in squalor because they're too lazy to even clean their house, much less get a job.

Kinda marginalizes the whole "equality" idea doesn't it? In Darwinian terms, I'd refute that all men are created equal. Some people's parents are much more superior than others. :dance:

[diuretic]

The way capitalism works is the businesses that are most capable of keeping their prices low, their product quality high and the customers coming through their doors are the ones that survive. If they can't do that, they do not survive: Survival of the fittest (http://www.busmanagement.com/pastissue/article.asp?art=26120&issue=156).
True, the phrase was originally coined to refer to the process of evolution exclusively, however you can't argue that the phrase hasn't evolved to refer more liberally to systems other than evolution in popular/contemporary vernacular. Even the original poster utilized this casual usage. :poke:

I know I'm going off topic here but that's not capitalism, that's a description of competitive behaviour between businesses which sell the same goods and services.

[Hobbit]

Kinda marginalizes the whole "equality" idea doesn't it? In Darwinian terms, I'd refute that all men are created equal. Some people's parents are much more superior than others. :dance:

But the child himself, when created, is created equal. While we are all partially the products of those who raised us, not all people are raised by their biological parents nor do all people follow in their parents' footsteps.

[Said1]

Are we really so far from a Darwinistic society? It is already socially acceptable to murder an unborn child if that child might have a genetic defect. This goes directly against 'all men are created equal,' and instead go to 'most men are created equal, but others are created inferior and will lead a life not worth living unless we kill them first.'

As a side note, remember the word 'created.' All men are created equal. Communism assumes that all men are equal. Everybody starts out naked, crying, and tiny, but some people end up on top of an office building in a $10,000 suit while others end up living in squalor because they're too lazy to even clean their house, much less get a job.

'As if the woman in the $10,000 suit is going to hold the elevator door open for you. Come on!' :laugh2:

I couldn't resist. carry on.

[diuretic]

Are we really so far from a Darwinistic society? It is already socially acceptable to murder an unborn child if that child might have a genetic defect. This goes directly against 'all men are created equal,' and instead go to 'most men are created equal, but others are created inferior and will lead a life not worth living unless we kill them first.'

Humans have habitually killed babies, born ones, not foetuses, where the survival of the group was at stake. Advanced industrialised societies forbid that behaviour on the basis that it's not necessary because medical assistance is available to babies who need help to survive. A society that truly believes totally and utterly in survival of the fittest (Spencer, not Darwin) would kill those babies that need help to survive infancy.




As a side note, remember the word 'created.' All men are created equal. Communism assumes that all men are equal. Everybody starts out naked, crying, and tiny, but some people end up on top of an office building in a $10,000 suit while others end up living in squalor because they're too lazy to even clean their house, much less get a job.

That's disgusting, "too lazy to even clean their house, much less get a job." Disgusting and intellectually lazy but typical of right wingnut thinking, totally lacking in any sense of empathy and certainly without any critical thought.

[diuretic]

Kinda marginalizes the whole "equality" idea doesn't it? In Darwinian terms, I'd refute that all men are created equal. Some people's parents are much more superior than others. :dance:

I hope this thread isn't derailed, it offers a lot for good discussion.

[Said1]

Kinda marginalizes the whole "equality" idea doesn't it? In Darwinian terms, I'd refute that all men are created equal. Some people's parents are much more superior than others. :dance:

Is this where I FINALLY get to use the term "Strawman"? Or do I mean circular. Krikey, me forgets!

[diuretic]

Is this where I FINALLY get to use the term "Strawman"? Or do I mean circular. Krikey, me forgets!

My head's exploding :laugh2:

[manu1959]

liberals and social programs prevent societal survival of the fittest to exist...


I think this is really melodramatic. There's no danger of a "survival of the fittest" philosophy becoming any more prevalent than it already is. Capitalism is a survival of the fittest strategy. Survival of the fittest is the most natural and basic way for society to function because it goes in lockstep with human nature. If we really held "all men are created equal" as a dogma, we'd be Communist. And that will never happen. All this is, is a BS anti-Darwinism thread posted with the intent to show proof of Christianity's monopoly on morality, which is a crock. :rolleyes: Even if for some crazy reason Christianity was suddenly and inexplicably snuffed-out, knowledge of the Golden rule would still be applied. The Constitution would still be extant. And equality of men would still be the dominant philosophy. It's so deeply ingrained into the Western mindset that, short of total anarchy, any semblance of society would still apply it universally.
Your ridiculous fears of "lib" rule are unjustified. I'm sick of this BS coming from the rightwingers on this board as if left-wingers are some kind of subhumans. If we're so f*cking evil and incompetent and if your philosophy is so superior, why are you so frickin' scared of us and what we think? I'd take a good look at what made me so unbelievably unconfident about my own philosophy that I felt the need to put down the opposing one at every juncture before I said one more word about an opposing viewpoint. You need to get a grip. If your Christian, moral high-ground Conservative philosophy is really backed by a deity, you should have nothing to worry about. Why then is your confidence in it so low that you feel the need for constant affirmation?

[diuretic]

liberals and social programs prevent societal survival of the fittest to exist...

Do you disapprove?

[typomaniac]

liberals and social programs prevent societal survival of the fittest to exist...

Liberalism in thought is the only way that societal survival of the fittest CAN exist. Without it, society stagnates and rots.

When I first glanced at this thread title, I thought it read "Underlying penises of society." Considering the rightwing soundbites it's degenerated into, that might be a better title for it now.

[Kathianne]

I've been thinking lately how many of the underlying assumptions of society are a result of the Christian roots of western society. I know I've been studying some of the premises we use and I don't even always recognize them as Christian and I am familiar with Christianity and Christian thought. Alot of the premises that built our western society are Christian in origin and we don't even realize it. Actually if memory serves me right, Christianity beging to impact 'Western thinking' about the falling of Rome?' For quite awhile after things really turn 'hinky', the Church is persecuted, i.e. catacombs. Then we enter the 'Dark Ages', where the only educated ones are the clergy, who to my 'education' play pretty fast and loose regarding 'The Word.' Yet, they do infuse morality to a people hungry for rules.


So it bothers me when people fail to recognize the origins of our premises and are trying to remove Christianity from western society. Because, while it may not happen overnight, removing Christianity from Western society will also remove many of the premises that act as a foundation for our modern society.

Look at human rights. Underlying them is an ideal of human worth that derives from Christian teaching. Thomas Jefferson that it was self evident that all men are created equal. But really it's only self evident when you share a moral background of the worth of souls. For thousands of years prior to the establishment of our nation, this truth was not self evident. Societies and cultures generally took a view that some people were better than others, IE the elites and nobles of society were better than everyone else. Again, I may be missing parts, but what I know of Jefferson's contributions comes more from the Enlightenment and 'reason' than from Christianity or even morality. Now mind you, I'm Christian, but I do think it's important to stay as clear as is possible. For instance, regardless of the beliefs or disbeliefs of a Locke or Montesquieu, they too were influenced by the Christian teachings.


Yet if our Christian foundation is uprooted and replaced with other values (regardless of the source) how difficult would it be to imagine a world where the equality of mankind is not viewed as a self evident truth? is it really that difficult to imagine a world where a Social Darwinian approach is used where people believe in survival of the fittest, that the strongest have a right to take what they want from the weaker? Or perhaps an Islamic extremist point of view where women and children are inferiors who shouldnt be allowed out in public with a man? Where would our equal rights be without the Christian premises underlying it? Social Darwinism certainly plays a large role in the Enlightenment thinking that influenced those, that later influenced Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and others. That is fact, we get that from their own writings. Bringing up Islamicism at this point, confuses me.


Or another Christian premise: the world has laws that govern it and we can learn these through observation, reason, and revelation. It's a claim that there is an absolute truth and it's discoverable. This is the basic premise of our entire scientific existance in the western world. Without this belief that the universe has laws that govern it and that we can learn them, what motivation is there to study the sciences? What is the point of trying to learn without some sort of faith that we can learn it?

We may not see the fallout from these premises immediately, but over time things will change. And chances are a society without these basic premises (among many others) would be much worse than the society we have now. I'm lost here. I fail to make a connection, it may be me or did you lose a train of thought?


There are many other premises that underline our society. I was surprised studying law how many of the ideas i found within them derive from judeo-christian ideals. In property and contracts in particular there were premises I saw from Christianity that helped me understand better my faith and the law.

Society is balanced on the edge between our Christian past and an unknown future. We may be the first generation in centuries that ends up leaving our children in a worse position than we were blessed with. Obviously it's still too early to know for sure. If Christianity was the only salient factor underlining our society perhaps, but there are others. The 'others' while not negating your conclusion, do call it's validity into question. You need to account for the other strains of thought.


But don't think I am writing this to be all doom and gloom. I am writing this because I have a great hope for the future. And it starts first with us taking responsibility for our own lives and embracing the values which our civilization was built upon. And once we do that for ourselves, we need to have children and teach them the truth. We need to teach them how God is no respecter of persons and how Christ came to save all men if they will accept His grace. We need to teach them personal responsibility and we do that through faith and repentence. We need to teach them the Christian work ethic that created this nation. We need to teach them humility. We need to teach them to let virtue garnish their thoughts unceasingly that their confidence may wax strong in the presence of the Lord and to have their bowels full of Charity towards all people.

In short, we need to know our faith, we need to live it, and we need to teach it to our posterity and those around us. We need to become Christ-like.

If none of us do, if we sit around and hope someone else will do it. If we think that there is nothing we can do. Then we will help rush our civilization to its end. And we will lose the freedom we cherish as will all those not of our faith who depend on us.

Like I said, it's just what's been on my mind lately. I expect no less, you are thinking which is normal and certainly necessary in the times we are living in, (probably any time people were habiting this earth).

MPOV, much of what you wrote/think is applicable to most in US, there are those that disagree with some of the pillars you claim as far a Christianity or Christian/Judea. Yet, the morality implicit with either, that is another category altogether, including the enlightenment.

[TheSage]

I've been thinking lately how many of the underlying assumptions of society are a result of the Christian roots of western society. I know I've been studying some of the premises we use and I don't even always recognize them as Christian and I am familiar with Christianity and Christian thought. Alot of the premises that built our western society are Christian in origin and we don't even realize it.

So it bothers me when people fail to recognize the origins of our premises and are trying to remove Christianity from western society. Because, while it may not happen overnight, removing Christianity from Western society will also remove many of the premises that act as a foundation for our modern society.

Look at human rights. Underlying them is an ideal of human worth that derives from Christian teaching. Thomas Jefferson that it was self evident that all men are created equal. But really it's only self evident when you share a moral background of the worth of souls. For thousands of years prior to the establishment of our nation, this truth was not self evident. Societies and cultures generally took a view that some people were better than others, IE the elites and nobles of society were better than everyone else.

Yet if our Christian foundation is uprooted and replaced with other values (regardless of the source) how difficult would it be to imagine a world where the equality of mankind is not viewed as a self evident truth? is it really that difficult to imagine a world where a Social Darwinian approach is used where people believe in survival of the fittest, that the strongest have a right to take what they want from the weaker? Or perhaps an Islamic extremist point of view where women and children are inferiors who shouldnt be allowed out in public with a man? Where would our equal rights be without the Christian premises underlying it?

Or another Christian premise: the world has laws that govern it and we can learn these through observation, reason, and revelation. It's a claim that there is an absolute truth and it's discoverable. This is the basic premise of our entire scientific existance in the western world. Without this belief that the universe has laws that govern it and that we can learn them, what motivation is there to study the sciences? What is the point of trying to learn without some sort of faith that we can learn it?

We may not see the fallout from these premises immediately, but over time things will change. And chances are a society without these basic premises (among many others) would be much worse than the society we have now.

There are many other premises that underline our society. I was surprised studying law how many of the ideas i found within them derive from judeo-christian ideals. In property and contracts in particular there were premises I saw from Christianity that helped me understand better my faith and the law.

Society is balanced on the edge between our Christian past and an unknown future. We may be the first generation in centuries that ends up leaving our children in a worse position than we were blessed with. Obviously it's still too early to know for sure.

But don't think I am writing this to be all doom and gloom. I am writing this because I have a great hope for the future. And it starts first with us taking responsibility for our own lives and embracing the values which our civilization was built upon. And once we do that for ourselves, we need to have children and teach them the truth. We need to teach them how God is no respecter of persons and how Christ came to save all men if they will accept His grace. We need to teach them personal responsibility and we do that through faith and repentence. We need to teach them the Christian work ethic that created this nation. We need to teach them humility. We need to teach them to let virtue garnish their thoughts unceasingly that their confidence may wax strong in the presence of the Lord and to have their bowels full of Charity towards all people.

In short, we need to know our faith, we need to live it, and we need to teach it to our posterity and those around us. We need to become Christ-like.

If none of us do, if we sit around and hope someone else will do it. If we think that there is nothing we can do. Then we will help rush our civilization to its end. And we will lose the freedom we cherish as will all those not of our faith who depend on us.

Like I said, it's just what's been on my mind lately.


Yes. Which is why it's sad to see christianity perverted back into a theocratic faith through talmudic perversion. Beware the judaizers.

[truthmatters]

The base of society is the survival of the individuals involved.

Society exsisted long before christianity exsisted. If Christianity does not survive society will be fine. I dont care about preserving ANY religion. I care about preserving a society which treats each other decently and values peace.

I wish more people would realise that the labels of what is good about a moral society are NOT whats important. it is the actions and philosophy which matter. I want any person who believes in any religion to feel free to practice it as long as it does not harm others. I dont care about what it is labeled. I bet the great philosophers of our world ( like Jesus) would not care either.

[TheSage]

The base of society is the survival of the individuals involved.

Society exsisted long before christianity exsisted. If Christianity does not survive society will be fine. I dont care about fpreserving ANY religion. I care about preserving a society which treats each other decently and values peace.

I wish more people would realise that the labels of what is good about a moral society are NOT whats important it is the actions and philosophy which matter. I want any person who believes in any religion to feel free to practice it as long as it does not harm others. I dont care about what it is labeled. I bet the great philosophers of our world ( like Jesus) would not care either.

Yes. And basic morality is fairly simple. Telling the truth. True cooperation based on mutual self interest. Dying for elitist induced ideological insanity, god, globalism, democracy, etc, is a bunch of crap.

[bullypulpit]

I should think that Western society owes more to the classic Greek philosophers than to Christianity. The Church's earliest apologists relied as much on Aristotle and Plato to justify their positions as they did Christ's teachings.

[diuretic]

Aristotle in particular was "re-discovered" by Aquinas through the Islamic philosophers who kept Aristotle's knowledge alive. No Aristotle, no science.

[Roomy]

Christian values are valid the world over, I am an athiest yet I subscribe to the values of christianity and purposely not Islamic values, I am open minded and am mindful of others beliefs and welcome serious discussion on the subject, bearing in mind that I will never be converted, though my mind can be changed on several issues as far as my cultural ideals are concerned.

[diuretic]

I'd be interested to known which Christian values are in fact exclusive to Christianity. I don't think there are any at all.

I'm not interested in getting into a fundie v. atheist punch-up, there are plenty of threads for that. I just remain to be convinced that Christian values are exclusively Christian.

[truthmatters]

I agree Di. They were not invented by christianity. They had long exsisted.

[TheSage]

I think where the west really diverges is during the protestant reformation, which is a kind more egalitarian, less hierarchical, less sacerdotal reformation of the catholic church, which I believe was just like any other hierarchical theocratic vehicle of power, just like the older religions.

[TheSage]

Found this



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
Western culture is neither homogeneous nor unchanging. As with all other cultures it has evolved and gradually changed over time. All generalities about it have their exceptions at some time and place. The organisation and tactics of the Greek Hoplites differed in many ways from the Roman Legions. The polis of the Greeks is not the same as the American superpower of the 21st century. The gladiatorial games of the Roman Empire are not identical to present-day soccer. The art of Pompeii is not the art of Hollywood. Nevertheless, it is possible to follow the evolution and history of the West, and appreciate its similarities and differences, its borrowings from and contributions to, the other cultures of humanity.

The ancient Greek conception of science, philosophy, democracy, architecture, literature, and art provided a foundation embraced and built upon by the Roman Empire as it swept up Greece in its conquests in the 1st century BC. For five hundred years, the Roman Empire spread the Greek and Latin languages and Roman law across Europe, although it rejected the democratic concepts pioneered in ancient Athens. With the rise of Christianity in the midst of the Roman world, much of Rome's tradition and culture were absorbed by the new religion, and transformed into something new, which would serve as the basis for the development of Western civilisation after the fall of Rome. Also, Roman culture mixed with the pre-existing Germanic, Slavic, and Celtic cultures, which slowly became integrated into Western culture starting, mainly, with their acceptance of Christianity.

[diuretic]

I think where the west really diverges is during the protestant reformation, which is a kind more egalitarian, less hierarchical, less sacerdotal reformation of the catholic church, which I believe was just like any other hierarchical theocratic vehicle of power, just like the older religions.

Not that I know much about the Reformation (is that the one with Luther in the vanguard?) but I would agree with those observations.

[diuretic]

Found this

Good article.

[Hagbard Celine]

But the child himself, when created, is created equal. While we are all partially the products of those who raised us, not all people are raised by their biological parents nor do all people follow in their parents' footsteps.

When the founders wrote the Constitution, "all men" didn't include women. It didn't include African slaves. It didn't include American Indians. It didn't include anyone but white, male landowners. Is that the "Christian heritage" you're refering to that our nation is based on? Sure, WE see the first amendment the way you describe it, but it wasn't always so. This goes for the OP as well: You can't look at current social mores and then act like they've always been that way and then attribute that to Christianity. In Jesus' time, social mores were even more barbaric. The reason our society is as free as it is, is not because of strict adherence to a dogma. It's because of social and philosophical experimentation. Christianity is merely an aside. One of many differing faiths, dogmas and ideologies that have made our country great.

[Hagbard Celine]

I'd be interested to known which Christian values are in fact exclusive to Christianity. I don't think there are any at all.

I'm not interested in getting into a fundie v. atheist punch-up, there are plenty of threads for that. I just remain to be convinced that Christian values are exclusively Christian.

Evangelists like to pretend that they have a monopoly on morality. It's as simple as that.

[avatar4321]

Evangelists like to pretend that they have a monopoly on morality. It's as simple as that.

you seem to think evangelicals are the only Christians around... but then again so do they.

[Said1]

you seem to think evangelicals are the only Christians around... but then again so do they.

:lol:

[Dilloduck]

you seem to think evangelicals are the only Christians around... but then again so do they.

:laugh2:----Why is that anyway?