There are some pathetic people in this country

[gabosaurus]

And I am not talking about politicians either. I am talking about regular sick people. Almost makes me question my opposition to the death penalty.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5327597.html

[Kathianne]

And I am not talking about politicians either. I am talking about regular sick people. Almost makes me question my opposition to the death penalty.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5327597.html

On another site, I admitted that while conflicted about the death penalty, this couple would make me volunteer or be happy with a sentence that takes years to implement then drag it out.

[diuretic]

You can chuck bricks at me if you like but this is why I like my position on the death penalty. I'm not opposed to it on "yuk effect" grounds, just the worry that an innocent person can be executed for something they didn't do.

So I can now salve my terrible case of cognitive dissonance by imagining myself taking these people and doing a Dexter on them and loving every bloody (and I use the word deliberately) second of it.

[Pale Rider]

And I am not talking about politicians either. I am talking about regular sick people. Almost makes me question my opposition to the death penalty.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5327597.html

This is just barbaric, to the point of causing physical upset. Anyone who would do such a thing to such a beautiful little defenseless girl is an animal, not even human.

Fuck the death penalty. These cold blooded killing vermin should be tortured then killed, just like they did to that poor little girl.

[manu1959]

dna testing will protect the innocent.....just look at all the innocent people that have been saved.....

so no more worries about killing innocent people......these two twits should be burned at the stake.....

[MtnBiker]

Why are there no declarations of a hate crime here?

[waterrescuedude2000]

It took you this long to figure that out????? I mean come on this kind of thing happens all too often and they need to be boiled to death in an oil vat!! Fuck cruel and unusual punishment after what this poor girl had to suffer through.. I am sorry people get injections to help health so whats so wrong with the lethal injection?? I think they should suffer after what the victims had to go through. or bring back old sparky!!!

[Sitarro]

I've been to that Wal-Mart that they bought the supplies from, that in itself sickens me.

This is Texas and they will more than likely die for what they did. Unfortunately they will be treated humanely while being put to death.

[Gunny]

And I am not talking about politicians either. I am talking about regular sick people. Almost makes me question my opposition to the death penalty.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5327597.html

Bullet to the head ... each.

[Joe Steel]

As bad as this was, it's worse for being avoidable.

According to the article, the Court allowed the young parents to make important decisions without proper advice.


On May 23, the couple appeared without attorneys before another judge to discuss the protective order and custody of Riley. Trenor was made primary custodian of Riley and a visitation schedule was ironed out.

Shortly after that hearing, Trenor and Riley left Ohio and were never seen by Sawyers again.

DePledge was retained by the Sawyers family about two weeks later and the search for the mother and child began in earnest.

Reports came through friends and relatives that Trenor had left for Pennsylvania and Maryland. But no address for the two could be found until months after Trenor filed for a Texas driver's license on June 15, 2007.

DePledge said a court order was requested to bring the mother and child back from Texas but it was dismissed because Trenor had primary custody.

As the noncustodial parent, Sawyers had no right to demand the return of his child to Ohio.

Had Trenor or Sawyers had an attorney at their May custody hearing, it is likely counsel would have advised that they have a relocation clause in the agreement, barring one from relocating without notice to the court.

DePledge said such clauses are common whether the couple is married or not.

But because neither one had an attorney at the time, such a clause was not included.

Had the Court insisted on counsel or provided competent case management, the Sawyers family might have been able to keep themselves aware of the baby's care and conditions.

The Ohio court system bears a good part of the blame for the child's tragic end.

[Hagbard Celine]

You can chuck bricks at me if you like but this is why I like my position on the death penalty. I'm not opposed to it on "yuk effect" grounds, just the worry that an innocent person can be executed for something they didn't do.

So I can now salve my terrible case of cognitive dissonance by imagining myself taking these people and doing a Dexter on them and loving every bloody (and I use the word deliberately) second of it.

Oh my God. You're a kindred spirit! I love Dexter! You're views on the Death Penalty are the same as mine as well.

[darin]

Blame the court, eh, Steel?

That's handy for you.

[Monkeybone]

how can you blame the courts? it's not like they denied them attorneys. that was their own choice. just another thing that our great society does. shift the blame.

[Nukeman]

how can you blame the courts? it's not like they denied them attorneys. that was their own choice. just another thing that our great society does. shift the blame.Couldn't have said it better Monkey!!!!!

[Joe Steel]

Blame the court, eh, Steel?

That's handy for you.

I said the Court shared the blame not that it should be blamed exclusively.

The Court failed the child and will fail others if no one says anything.

[Joe Steel]

how can you blame the courts? it's not like they denied them attorneys. that was their own choice. just another thing that our great society does. shift the blame.

The parents are minors. They can't be expected to understand the full import of their acts.

[darin]

The parents are minors. They can't be expected to understand the full import of their acts.

what the hell? THAT is a stretch.


I said the Court shared the blame not that it should be blamed exclusively.

The Court failed the child and will fail others if no one says anything.

Absolutely NOT relevant. The court did what the Law says. If you want to blame ANYTHING or ANYBODY but the perps, blame the LAW. The LAW which tends to give custody to the Female - not the Father.

You blamed the courts. Whether it was 'partial' blame or not, you're still trying to point fingers at somebody other than the REAL criminals - the ONLY FOLK AT FAULT are those who killed that little girl.

(note the period)

[Abbey Marie]

The parents are minors. They can't be expected to understand the full import of their acts.


They are 19 & 24. Old enough to drive, vote, fight in a war, buy property, make out a Will, get married, etc., etc. How can you possibly say they did not know what they were doing?

More importantly, what is this lib compulsion to search high and low to find ANYONE or ANYTHING to blame but the actual perpetrators of a crime? It is actually nauseating.

[Hagbard Celine]

The parents are minors. They can't be expected to understand the full import of their acts.

This is ridiculous. These animals tortured and beat their own little girl to death like a couple of sadistic apes and then stored her body in a rubbermaid container. Lock 'em up and throw away the key. Case closed.

[Hagbard Celine]

They are 19 & 24. Old enough to drive, vote, fight in a war, buy property, make out a Will, get married, etc., etc. How can you possibly say they did not know what they were doing?

More importantly, what is this lib compulsion to search high and low to find ANYONE or ANYTHING to blame but the actual perpetrators of a crime? It is actually nauseating.

It's not a "lib" compulsion. It's an idiot compulsion. Much like the compulsion to blame all of society's woes on "libs." :rolleyes:

[Abbey Marie]

It's not a "lib" compulsion. It's an idiot compulsion. Much like the compulsion to blame all of society's woes on "libs." :rolleyes:

Well, I certainly won't argue against the synonymous nature of the terms lib and idiot with you. :coffee:

But do you actually propose that it is not primarily the libs in our society who fight against the death penalty, longer prison terms, and in general, any law that cracks down on criminals? Who do you think makes up the ACLU, for example? Continually argues that criminals are the victim of an unfair socioeconomic system? Argues that blacks are disproprtionately represented in prisons, and it is somehow society's fault?

Excusing the criminal is a well-known lib avocation. But I am heartened to see that some here have the courage to speak out against at least these two scum.

[darin]

They are 19 & 24. Old enough to drive, vote, fight in a war, buy property, make out a Will, get married, etc., etc. How can you possibly say they did not know what they were doing?

More importantly, what is this lib compulsion to search high and low to find ANYONE or ANYTHING to blame but the actual perpetrators of a crime? It is actually nauseating.

IMO, it stems partly from their godlessness. It's the same part of them which hopes God doesn't exist, or if he DOES exist, it's the part they hope absolves them of their life. It's a symptom, imo, of their affliction.

[Abbey Marie]

IMO, it stems partly from their godlessness. It's the same part of them which hopes God doesn't exist, or if he DOES exist, it's the part they hope absolves them of their life. It's a symptom, imo, of their affliction.

The criminals, or the libs?

[Hagbard Celine]

IMO, it stems partly from their godlessness. It's the same part of them which hopes God doesn't exist, or if he DOES exist, it's the part they hope absolves them of their life. It's a symptom, imo, of their affliction.

Riiiight. I'm going to guess the fact that I am a "lib" in your definition will outweigh the fact that my own condemnation of the murder of this girl flatly refutes ya'll's "libs blame everyone except the perpetrators of a crime" conjecture and that it will still have no effect on the continuity of ya'll's inanity. :laugh:

[Joe Steel]

They are 19 & 24. Old enough to drive, vote, fight in a war, buy property, make out a Will, get married, etc., etc. How can you possibly say they did not know what they were doing?

More importantly, what is this lib compulsion to search high and low to find ANYONE or ANYTHING to blame but the actual perpetrators of a crime? It is actually nauseating.

The 24 year old is the mother's boyfriend.

The child's father and mother were classmates. Presumably they're the same or close to the same age, 19. Unless Ohio law is markedly different for that of other states, that's not old enough to sign a contract.

Why are you so willing to assume they can make decisions which affect a child's welfare when the State won't trust them to sign a contract?

[Joe Steel]

what the hell? THAT is a stretch.

It's perfectly reasonable and it's the law.


Absolutely NOT relevant. The court did what the Law says. If you want to blame ANYTHING or ANYBODY but the perps, blame the LAW. The LAW which tends to give custody to the Female - not the Father.

You blamed the courts. Whether it was 'partial' blame or not, you're still trying to point fingers at somebody other than the REAL criminals - the ONLY FOLK AT FAULT are those who killed that little girl.

(note the period)

The Court has tremendous discretion to order those who come before it to do or not do things. It could have ordered the two to get counsel and it should have.

We trust the State to be responsible for the welfare of children. That's why we have agencies devoted to just that. Life-changing decisions confronting minors is a legitimate State interest.

[jimnyc]

The child's father and mother were classmates. Presumably they're the same or close to the same age, 19. Unless Ohio law is markedly different for that of other states, that's not old enough to sign a contract.

Huh? In almost all states you are legally able to sign a contract once you reach the age of 18.

[Joe Steel]

This is ridiculous. These animals tortured and beat their own little girl to death like a couple of sadistic apes and then stored her body in a rubbermaid container. Lock 'em up and throw away the key. Case closed.

You're missing or ignoring a contributing factor. No one is absolving the suspects or that they shouldn't be subject to the full application of law. I'm saying the process which we expect to protect children failed and that because of the failure this horror became much more likely to occur.

[jimnyc]

Huh? In almost all states you are legally able to sign a contract once you reach the age of 18.

They say that the age in which someone can enter into a legally binding contract is when they reach the "age of majority". This is 18 years old in every state in the US but 3.

http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/majority.htm

and for further reference:

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/capacity-to-contract-lawyers.html

[Abbey Marie]

The 24 year old is the mother's boyfriend.

The child's father and mother were classmates. Presumably they're the same or close to the same age, 19. Unless Ohio law is markedly different for that of other states, that's not old enough to sign a contract.

Why are you so willing to assume they can make decisions which affect a child's welfare when the State won't trust them to sign a contract?

I guess you are confused. The man arrested for the crime, is the mother's husband, and he is 24. The father is not relevant to the discussion of the awareness of the import of the crimes committed.
See here:

and Trenor's husband, Royce Clyde Zeigler II, 24, until they threw the box into West Galveston Bay, according to Trenor's statement released Monday.

How, again, is the 24 year old not fully aware of his actions?


And you are wrong about the legal rights of these two. But continue making excuses for them; it potentially reveals a lot about your character.

[Joe Steel]

I guess you are confused. The man arrested for the crime, is the mother's husband, and he is 24.

OK, he's the husband not the boyfriend. In either case, he's not the father of the child as you said earlier.

[Abbey Marie]

OK, he's the husband not the boyfriend. In either case, he's not the father of the child as you said earlier.

Show me where I said the father committed the crime.

[Gaffer]

The 24 year old is the mother's boyfriend.

The child's father and mother were classmates. Presumably they're the same or close to the same age, 19. Unless Ohio law is markedly different for that of other states, that's not old enough to sign a contract.

Why are you so willing to assume they can make decisions which affect a child's welfare when the State won't trust them to sign a contract?

The legal age in Ohio is 18. The only thing they couldn't do in Ohio is buy liquor. So your whole argument goes out the window.

[Joe Steel]

How, again, is the 24 year old not fully aware of his actions?

And you are wrong about the legal rights of these two. But continue making excuses for them; it potentially reveals a lot about your character.

You're completely confused.

I was speaking of the parents not the mother and her husband.

[Trigg]

You're completely confused.

I was speaking of the parents not the mother and her husband.

The childs real father's age doesn't matter in this story. The two people who killed her are 19 and 24 and fully capable of knowing right from wrong. Their ages are no excuse.


Zeigler and Trenor beat Riley with belts and held her head under water in the bathtub. Zeigler (24) picked up Riley by her hair and threw her across the room, causing her head to slam into the tile floor, according to the statement.

The medical examiner found three skull fractures — which were fatal — on the back of the head, according to the affidavit.

Trenor told investigators that Riley's face was pushed into a pillow and into a couch, but her statement does not say who was responsible.

[Abbey Marie]

You're completely confused.

I was speaking of the parents not the mother and her husband.

No, I'm not confused. We were discussing the crime, and the criminals, and you veered off into blaming the courts. You ignored the actual criminals and chose instead, in your predictable lib way, to focus on a man who had nothing to do with the crime, in an effort to place blame for this sick tragedy on someone other than the criminals. There isn't even a proximate cause here between the torture and murder, and the father or the court.

[Joe Steel]

The childs real father's age doesn't matter in this story. The two people who killed her are 19 and 24 and fully capable of knowing right from wrong. Their ages are no excuse.

That's not the issue.

[Joe Steel]

No, I'm not confused. We were discussing the crime, and the criminals, and you veered off into blaming the courts. You ignored the actual criminals and chose instead, in your predictable lib way, to focus on a man who had nothing to do with the crime, in an effort to place blame for this sick tragedy on someone other than the criminals. There isn't even a proximate cause here between the torture and murder, and the father or the court.

You're wrong. I was discussing the role of the Court and you started talking about the the mother and her husband. You may be correct in some respect but it's irrelevant to the issue I raised.

[Trigg]

That's not the issue.

The issue is, these animals killed this innocent little girl and need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

[darin]

You're wrong. I was discussing the role of the Court and you started talking about the the mother and her husband. You may be correct in some respect but it's irrelevant to the issue I raised.

The court's decision had NO Bearing on the evilness of the mother and her new man. Seriously - bringing up the court's decision is as stupid as if you were blaming the Toyota which the two used to drag he girl's body to the water.

[Joe Steel]

The legal age in Ohio is 18. The only thing they couldn't do in Ohio is buy liquor. So your whole argument goes out the window.

Not entirely. In fact, the legal capacity of the parents actually raises a larger and perhaps more important issue.

Ohio law apparently allows young parents to make life-changing decisions for their infant children without being certain they have the capacity to do it. This certainly is a reflection on the extremist ideology of Ohio, a generally conservative state.

As always, when horrors occur, conservatives are involved.

[Monkeybone]

i think the only way to be able to drag the court into any sort of blame, would be if the mother of the child had any previous abuse/violence issues against her. if not, it was just seeing who gets the kid. other than that, the court has no blame in what those two physco's did to that little girl.

guess the judge forgot to look into his crystal ball that day huh?

[Joe Steel]

The issue is, these animals killed this innocent little girl and need to be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

Sorry, no. I raised another issue which, apparently, you missed.

[Joe Steel]

The court's decision had NO Bearing on the evilness of the mother and her new man. Seriously - bringing up the court's decision is as stupid as if you were blaming the Toyota which the two used to drag he girl's body to the water.


Not nearly as stupid as insisting something plainly stated isn't what it is.

[Monkeybone]

Not entirely. In fact, the legal capacity of the parents actually raises a larger and perhaps more important issue.

Ohio law apparently allows young parents to make life-changing decisions for their infant children without being certain they have the capacity to do it. This certainly is a reflection on the extremist ideology of Ohio, a generally conservative state.

As always, when horrors occur, conservatives are involved.

that is your second biggest load of crap that i have ever seen. every state let's the parents choose for their kids. are you suggesting that they do yearly mental eval's on all parents? or that they have to get all decsions approved through a government agency? that is ridiculous.

[darin]

The state of Texas is partially to blame, too - They built the roads used by the mother and her husband, to dispose of the body. I suspect Target is to blame, as those were the clothes worn by the girl when they killed her/disposed of her.

Let's blame the maker of the belt used to whip her - and whomever made the house she was killed in. THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN their walls would cause skull fractures to children, if the kids were thrown against them.

Joe Steel...you're incorigable.

[Monkeybone]

we should also blame the makers of the shed that hid her body for two months. without it she couldn't have been hidden.

[Joe Steel]

that is your second biggest load of crap that i have ever seen. every state let's the parents choose for their kids. are you suggesting that they do yearly mental eval's on all parents? or that they have to get all decsions approved through a government agency? that is ridiculous.

Yes. I'm suggesting Ohio law, and the laws of other states if necessary, require young parents seeking custody orders be counseled. The welfare of the children involved is too important to be concerned with rightwing ideology.

[Joe Steel]

The state of Texas is partially to blame, too - They built the roads used by the mother and her husband, to dispose of the body. I suspect Target is to blame, as those were the clothes worn by the girl when they killed her/disposed of her.

Let's blame the maker of the belt used to whip her - and whomever made the house she was killed in. THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN their walls would cause skull fractures to children, if the kids were thrown against them.

Joe Steel...you're incorigable.

Are you saying states have no responsibility for the welfare of children?

[darin]

Are you saying states have no responsibility for the welfare of children?

Are you saying Women and blacks are stupid????

[Gaffer]

Not entirely. In fact, the legal capacity of the parents actually raises a larger and perhaps more important issue.

Ohio law apparently allows young parents to make life-changing decisions for their infant children without being certain they have the capacity to do it. This certainly is a reflection on the extremist ideology of Ohio, a generally conservative state.

As always, when horrors occur, conservatives are involved.

It's obvious you know nothing about Ohio. Your talking out of your ass and it shows. Better back up and try again.

Horrors occur because people do evil things, not because of their politics. Making excuses and defending the evil acts of others makes one just as guilty as the perpetrator. These two did an incredibly evil act and you are trying to shift the blame to another entity which had no control over their actions. The courts job was to establish parental control and set up child support. Nothing more than that.

An under age parent is still the responsibility of their parents until they reach the age of majority or are emancipated by the court. In which case they are considered adults, though they cannot enter into contracts.

Children making decisions for children is a purely liberal idea.

[Joe Steel]

Are you saying Women and blacks are stupid????

Certainly not. Why do you think they are?

[Hagbard Celine]

Children making decisions for children is a purely liberal idea.
You're right. It's written right here in the "Lib Handbook." Subsection nine, chapter 3.5 right under "Basics of Baby Eating" and "Anal Sex 101."

Now where's that "f*ckin' moron" emoticon? :f*ckin' moron: :eek:

[Joe Steel]

It's obvious you know nothing about Ohio. Your talking out of your ass and it shows. Better back up and try again.

Horrors occur because people do evil things, not because of their politics. Making excuses and defending the evil acts of others makes one just as guilty as the perpetrator. These two did an incredibly evil act and you are trying to shift the blame to another entity which had no control over their actions. The courts job was to establish parental control and set up child support. Nothing more than that.

An under age parent is still the responsibility of their parents until they reach the age of majority or are emancipated by the court. In which case they are considered adults, though they cannot enter into contracts.

Children making decisions for children is a purely liberal idea.

States regularly act for the benefit children regardless of the age of the parents because states have assumed that responsibility. That includes removing them from their parents' custody if the children's welfare requires it. The Ohio Court didn't do that or anything else to ensure the child's welfare in this case, perhaps, because the law wouldn't allow it. If that's so, the death of the child is squarely on the shoulders of the conservative Ohio legislators who demanded fealty to extremist ideology in all things rather than faithful concern for the welfare of the youngest citizens.

And, frankly, I'm appalled you would sacrifice babies to your conservative gods.

[Monkeybone]

States regularly act for the benefit children regardless of the age of the parents because states have assumed that responsibility. That includes removing them from their parents' custody if the children's welfare requires it. The Ohio Court didn't do that or anything else to ensure the child's welfare in this case, perhaps, because the law wouldn't allow it. If that's so, the death of the child is squarely on the shoulders of the conservative Ohio legislators who demanded fealty to extremist ideology in all things rather than faithful concern for the welfare of the youngest citizens.

And, frankly, I'm appalled you would sacrifice babies to your conservative gods.

understood Joe, but until they know about it, they can't do anything. Do your all so perfect Democratic states do random house to house searches and check ups for child wel-fare? and maybe the Ohio courts didn't do anything about since they were in Texas? the main question is, How would anybody have known if issues weren't raised? maybe we should go ahead and charge all of their friends as well since they didn't do anything either?

[Joe Steel]

understood Joe, but until they know about it, they can't do anything. Do your all so perfect Democratic states do random house to house searches and check ups for child wel-fare? and maybe the Ohio courts didn't do anything about since they were in Texas? the main question is, How would anybody have known if issues weren't raised? maybe we should go ahead and charge all of their friends as well since they didn't do anything either?

The mother and father are Ohio natives. They went before an Ohio Court last spring to work-out a custody arrangement. Ohio law allows but does not require counsel at such hearings. The parents opted to exercise their rights under Ohio law to represent themselves. I'm saying the law should have required them to have counsel or advice of some sort.

[Monkeybone]

The mother and father are Ohio natives. They went before an Ohio Court last spring to work-out a custody arrangement. Ohio law allows but does not require counsel at such hearings. The parents opted to exercise their rights under Ohio law to represent themselves. I'm saying the law should have required them to have counsel or advice of some sort.

why force them to something that they don't want?

[Gaffer]

States regularly act for the benefit children regardless of the age of the parents because states have assumed that responsibility. That includes removing them from their parents' custody if the children's welfare requires it. The Ohio Court didn't do that or anything else to ensure the child's welfare in this case, perhaps, because the law wouldn't allow it. If that's so, the death of the child is squarely on the shoulders of the conservative Ohio legislators who demanded fealty to extremist ideology in all things rather than faithful concern for the welfare of the youngest citizens.

And, frankly, I'm appalled you would sacrifice babies to your conservative gods.

What exactly do you know about Ohio? Is it just because Ohio was the key to getting Bush elected? Is that your gripe?

I've lived in Ohio since 1974.

The court did what it was suppose to do. Assign parental rights and secure child support. That is the only authority the court had over the situation. The same would apply in any other state. what part of that don't you understand.

Being a commie I know its hard for you to understand how freedom works. Courts and governments are not there to tell people how to live and micro manage their lives. Unless there was a history of abuse by the mother the court had no reason to go beyond what it ruled. Case closed.

[Joe Steel]

why force them to something that they don't want?

Because the welfare of a child was at stake.

Ohio law apparently presumes them to be competent adults. A clear view of reality, however, recognizes them as barely more than children themselves. The State's interest in protecting infants and children should have taken precedence over the presumption of competence.

[Abbey Marie]

why force them to something that they don't want?

It's the lib way, doncha know? Just throw that Consitution out the window- Joe wants the gov't more involved. Maybe they can spy on all young parents, maybe wiretap their phones. Or just take the kids away without due process. Anything but blame the actual perpetrators of the killing.

Hey Joe, not that it is in any way relevant to the crime committed, but what did these two do to raise the concern of the courts or any child welfare agencies? Uh, nothing? I thought so. You are making asinine arguments and everyone can see it. If I were you, I'd drop it.

And finally, forget blaming the shed, the plastic bin, the belt and the roads- isn't there some way you can make this Bush's fault? C'mon, you can do it!!

[Monkeybone]

I know Abbey! Bush didn't pass enough regulations to make the courts cross examine the mom! there we go :laugh2:


C'mon Joe :lame2:

[Joe Steel]

What exactly do you know about Ohio? Is it just because Ohio was the key to getting Bush elected? Is that your gripe?

I've lived in Ohio since 1974.

The court did what it was suppose to do. Assign parental rights and secure child support. That is the only authority the court had over the situation. The same would apply in any other state. what part of that don't you understand.

Being a commie I know its hard for you to understand how freedom works. Courts and governments are not there to tell people how to live and micro manage their lives. Unless there was a history of abuse by the mother the court had no reason to go beyond what it ruled. Case closed.

I've already said the Court acted appropriately. The problem seems to be with the law. It seems to be inconsistent with the State's interest in protecting infants and children.

Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Are you strung-out on conservative crack?

[Gaffer]

Because the welfare of a child was at stake.

Ohio law apparently presumes them to be competent adults. A clear view of reality, however, recognizes them as barely more than children themselves. The State's interest in protecting infants and children should have taken precedence over the presumption of competence.

Law in any state presumes parents to be competent adults unless they are proven not to be so. In Ohio when someone turns 18 they are adults. Their competency is not an issue until they do something to make it so. In this case the mother was not shown to be abusive or mentally incompetent, so after awarding custody the court has no more responsibility. This applies in every state.

Your Orwellian world does not exist here.

[Joe Steel]

It's the lib way, doncha know? Just throw that Consitution out the window- Joe wants the gov't more involved. Maybe they can spy on all young parents, maybe wiretap their phones. Or just take the kids away without due process. Anything but blame the actual perpetrators of the killing.

Hey Joe, not that it is in any way relevant to the crime committed, but what did these two do to raise the concern of the courts or any child welfare agencies? Uh, nothing? I thought so. You are making asinine arguments and everyone can see it. If I were you, I'd drop it.

And finally, forget blaming the shed, the plastic bin, the belt and the roads- isn't there some way you can make this Bush's fault? C'mon, you can do it!!

You probably should stop posting. Every time you do, you make yourself look less connected to reality.

[Abbey Marie]

You probably should stop posting. Every time you do, you make yourself look less connected to reality.

:laugh2: That's a good one, Joe. Perhaps I should move it to the Humor section for you.

[Joe Steel]

Law in any state presumes parents to be competent adults unless they are proven not to be so. In Ohio when someone turns 18 they are adults. Their competency is not an issue until they do something to make it so. In this case the mother was not shown to be abusive or mentally incompetent, so after awarding custody the court has no more responsibility. This applies in every state.

Your Orwellian world does not exist here.

I'm not arguing about what the law is. That's for lawyers.

I'm arguing about what the law should be. That's for concerned citizens.

The law allowed these young parents to make a mistake and their child died because of it. That's not OK in my world even if it is in the bizarre world of conservatives.

[Joe Steel]

:laugh2: That's a good one, Joe. Perhaps I should move it to the Humor section for you.

Do as you wish. I have no idea what you would find appropriate.

[Gaffer]

I'm not arguing about what the law is. That's for lawyers.

I'm arguing about what the law should be. That's for concerned citizens.

The law allowed these young parents to make a mistake and their child died because of it. That's not OK in my world even if it is in the bizarre world of conservatives.

The law didn't allow anything. These parents committed murder. They are solely and completely responsible for their actions. You looking to shift the blame to an entity. You also want complete government control over every aspect of everyone's life. have you given any thought to the fact that your life would be just as affected by such a government? Or do you think you will be somehow immune to the government scrutiny you propose?

[darin]

Because the welfare of a child was at stake.



If the State cared about child welfare, they'd never allow homosexuals to adopt, and they'd abolish CPS.

[Pale Rider]

:laugh2: That's a good one, Joe. Perhaps I should move it to the Humor section for you.

Hell Abbey... don't coddle this little sassy twit, give him 24 off...

[trobinett]

Talk about your "disconnected" individual, look it up in the dictionary, and the name "Joe Steel" is right there.

Joe, if I may, you need to take reading comprehension 101.

No one's arguing with you, your arguing with everyone else.

Take a chill pill lad, step back from the computer, and breath deeply.

Some of what you say makes sense, in a twisted sort of way, but you need to learn how to CONVEY it.

Carry on.......:lame2:

[avatar4321]

I'm not arguing about what the law is. That's for lawyers.

I'm arguing about what the law should be. That's for concerned citizens.

The law allowed these young parents to make a mistake and their child died because of it. That's not OK in my world even if it is in the bizarre world of conservatives.

if you dont understand what the law is, why should we listen to your decision to change the law?

Laws are established for a reason. Some are good, some are bad. But if you cant articulate why the current law is bad and should be replaced with the new one, why should we listen to what you say?

Why do you think current laws are the concern of lawyers and new laws arent? Why do you think concerned citizens should care what laws should be and not what they are now? it just doesnt make any sense.

young parents make mistakes that result in their childrens death all the time. That doesnt make them criminals. Ignorance is not criminal. intentionally killing someone is.

[jimnyc]

The law allowed these young parents to make a mistake and their child died because of it. That's not OK in my world even if it is in the bizarre world of conservatives.

They beat this little girl with leather belts. They held her under water in a bathtub. They slammed her onto a tile floor. They then kept this little girls body in a plastic container for 2 months. Then they threw her body into the water like she was a piece of garbage. And you have the audacity to call this a "mistake"? You claim the law "allowed" them to do such a thing? You are a fucking idiot.

This was no mistake. This was murder. The law neither allows or condones for adults or children to make such "mistakes".

For you to even imply that they are even slightly less guilty because the law "allowed" them to do what they did just shows that you are a sick, uneducated piece of garbage yourself.

This was a little 2 year old girl for Christ's sake! You make it sound as if they are somehow not fully responsible for their actions because of their age, and because the law didn't do enough to prevent this from happening. The child didn't die "because of it" as you state, the child died because she was murdered, you imbecile!

I don't know what's sadder, the fact that you are such a sick son of a bitch, or that you can possibly be so damn stupid.

[Gunny]

I said the Court shared the blame not that it should be blamed exclusively.

The Court failed the child and will fail others if no one says anything.

The court did not fail that child anymore than it failed any other. As has already been stated, you're just trying to shift blame.

NO ONE forced, made or otherwise coerced those two inhuman pieces of trash to beat a toddler against wall, pull her hair, drown her nor anything else, and if the court were to go under the presumption that they would do such a thing and in any way infringe upon their Constitutional rights to be heartless scumbags you and the ACLU would be wettin' your freakin' Huggies.

Those two people committed the crime and those two people are nto worthy of taking another breath or otherwise using up any more natural resources on this planet.

[Abbey Marie]

They beat this little girl with leather belts. They held her under water in a bathtub. They slammed her onto a tile floor. They then kept this little girls body in a plastic container for 2 months. Then they threw her body into the water like she was a piece of garbage. And you have the audacity to call this a "mistake"? You claim the law "allowed" them to do such a thing? You are a fucking idiot.

This was no mistake. This was murder. The law neither allows or condones for adults or children to make such "mistakes".

For you to even imply that they are even slightly less guilty because the law "allowed" them to do what they did just shows that you are a sick, uneducated piece of garbage yourself.

This was a little 2 year old girl for Christ's sake! You make it sound as if they are somehow not fully responsible for their actions because of their age, and because the law didn't do enough to prevent this from happening. The child didn't die "because of it" as you state, the child died because she was murdered, you imbecile!

I don't know what's sadder, the fact that you are such a sick son of a bitch, or that you can possibly be so damn stupid.

Jim, the worst thing is the fact that he pushes the partisan BS that conservatives don't care about the girl being murdered, when in fact, he is the only one on the board making excuses for the filth who killed her.

I am left with the scary thought that our high schools are doing a really poor job of teaching kids to think clearly. Or a really good job teaching them to not take responsibility for their actions.

[Gunny]

Jim, the worst thing is the fact that he pushes the partisan BS that conservatives don't care about the girl being murdered, when in fact, he is the only one on the board making excuses for the filth who killed her.

I am left with the scary thought that our high schools are doing a really poor job of teaching kids to think clearly. Or a really good job teaching them to not take responsibility for their actions.

As I said, if the law stepped in in any way, people like this knucklehead and the ACLU would mess their Huggies up a storm. HE, Joe Steele and his ilk, are the very ones who have tied the law's hands.

[avatar4321]

Jim, the worst thing is the fact that he pushes the partisan BS that conservatives don't care about the girl being murdered, when in fact, he is the only one on the board making excuses for the filth who killed her.

I am left with the scary thought that our high schools are doing a really poor job of teaching kids to think clearly. Or a really good job teaching them to not take responsibility for their actions.

I know it's absolutely horrifying. No rational person can uphold his position. It makes me think he's just saying it to screw with our heads

[avatar4321]

You continue to misunderstand and misrepresent the facts. The parents didn't commit murder, or any other crime for that matter.

Read the original article and try again.

okay...


The 2-year-old girl known as Baby Grace was beaten with leather belts, held under water in a bathtub and slammed onto a tile floor in July, according to a statement her mother gave to investigators.

Riley Ann Sawyers' little body was then kept in a plastic container for up to two months at the Spring residence of her mother, Kimberly Dawn Trenor, 19, and Trenor's husband, Royce Clyde Zeigler II, 24, until they threw the box into West Galveston Bay, according to Trenor's statement released Monday.

A fisherman discovered the container Oct. 29 washed up on a sand bar about five miles from the Galveston Causeway. Trenor said in a statement Saturday the container was tossed into the bay near the causeway.

The statement also says Zeigler — employed by Austin-based Emerson Process Management, a Shell Oil contractor — attempted suicide a week ago by overdosing on blood pressure medication and anti-depressants. He left a note in a spiral notebook saying, "My wife is innocent of the sins that I committed," the statement says.

Sure as hell looks like the article is saying that her parents committed murder. Which of course explains why later in the article they are talking about murder charges:


Galveston District Attorney Kurt Sistrunk said it's possible capital murder charges, which carry a possible death sentence, could be presented to a grand jury, depending on the results of the investigation

So explain this to me. If the parents didn't commit any crime. Why are they discussing charging them with capital punishment for murder?

[Joe Steel]

okay...



Sure as hell looks like the article is saying that her parents committed murder. Which of course explains why later in the article they are talking about murder charges:



So explain this to me. If the parents didn't commit any crime. Why are they discussing charging them with capital punishment for murder?


Riley Ann Sawyers' little body was then kept in a plastic container for up to two months at the Spring residence of her mother, Kimberly Dawn Trenor, 19, and Trenor's husband, Royce Clyde Zeigler II, 24, until they threw the box into West Galveston Bay, according to Trenor's statement released Monday.

Baby Grace documents tell of a brutal death (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5327597.html)

The mother and her husband killed the child. The mother's husband was not the child's father.

The mother took the child from Ohio where the father lived. The Ohio Court allowed the mother sole custody and did not bar her from relocating from Ohio without notifying the Court as it could have done.

[jimnyc]

The mother and her husband killed the child. The mother's husband was not the child's father.

The mother took the child from Ohio where the father lived. The Ohio Court allowed the mother sole custody and did not bar her from relocating from Ohio without notifying the Court as it could have done.

So it's the courts fault that these two hit this little girl with a belt? It's the courts fault that they held her under water? It's the courts fault that they slammed her onto the floor? It's the courts fault that they tossed her body into the water? And your theory is that this could have been prevented if they were forced to stay in Ohio? Do they not have belts, bathtubs and flooring in Ohio? They don't have places to dispose of bodies in Ohio? This couple magically wouldn't have been murdering filth regardless of where they lived?

I disagree. I'll stand by my original assessment that you're just an idiot.

[avatar4321]

The mother and her husband killed the child. The mother's husband was not the child's father.

The mother took the child from Ohio where the father lived. The Ohio Court allowed the mother sole custody and did not bar her from relocating from Ohio without notifying the Court as it could have done.

so the mother is not the kids parent?

[Joe Steel]

So it's the courts fault that these two hit this little girl with a belt? It's the courts fault that they held her under water? It's the courts fault that they slammed her onto the floor? It's the courts fault that they tossed her body into the water? And your theory is that this could have been prevented if they were forced to stay in Ohio? Do they not have belts, bathtubs and flooring in Ohio? They don't have places to dispose of bodies in Ohio? This couple magically wouldn't have been murdering filth regardless of where they lived?

I disagree. I'll stand by my original assessment that you're just an idiot.

Still wrong.

Try again dumbass.

[Joe Steel]

so the mother is not the kids parent?

Desperate.

Truly desperate.

[avatar4321]

Desperate.

Truly desperate.

so in other words you've been caught lying about her parents not being responsible for her murder and you dont have any rational response.

[REDWHITEBLUE2]

The criminals, or the libs? Theres a Difference ?

[jimnyc]

Still wrong.

Try again dumbass.

Jo jo, are you angry? I would be too if I was made to look like an ass by someone over and over! You make it so easy though! All you have left is your lame one liners because you've been defeated, again. Sad, for you anyway, funny as hell for me! :laugh2:

[trobinett]

Joe Steel, on the wrong side of wrong again, why aren't I surprised?

[Joe Steel]

so in other words you've been caught lying about her parents not being responsible for her murder and you dont have any rational response.

No. I mean you're desperately trying to cover-up your error.

Try again dumbass.

[Joe Steel]

Jo jo, are you angry? I would be too if I was made to look like an ass by someone over and over! You make it so easy though! All you have left is your lame one liners because you've been defeated, again. Sad, for you anyway, funny as hell for me! :laugh2:

This is pretty much an admission of your error and your inability to master even the simplest of facts but you'd be better-off just saying you were wrong.

You wouldn't look like a weasel.

[jimnyc]

Little joey has lost all control of his senses and is no longer even responding to the actual topic. He did the same thing when he was outright busted in the Michael Moore documentary thread. Makes excuses, little twists and avoids answering the "hard" questions. He doesn't get embarrassed at being wrong on such a continual basis though, he comes back each and every time and spews more nonsense so he can repeat his idiocy all over again. Stupid people like him are fun to toy with but get a little boring after awhile.

[Joe Steel]

Little joey has lost all control of his senses and is no longer even responding to the actual topic. He did the same thing when he was outright busted in the Michael Moore documentary thread. Makes excuses, little twists and avoids answering the "hard" questions. He doesn't get embarrassed at being wrong on such a continual basis though, he comes back each and every time and spews more nonsense so he can repeat his idiocy all over again. Stupid people like him are fun to toy with but get a little boring after awhile.

You're not much at following the facts but you have a tremendous future as a historical revisionist.

You're not even close to the reality of the issue, such as your failure to even rudimentarily understand it, but you're more than willing to try to spin it your way.

Try again dumbass.

[avatar4321]

No. I mean you're desperately trying to cover-up your error.

Try again dumbass.

joe, in order to cover up an error, id have to be wrong. its pretty darn clear from the article exactly where i cited that her mother and her step father are being charged with murder. In fact, this is one of the few cases where it actually seems pretty clear that they are guilty before the trial occurs. I have nothing to cover up.

[avatar4321]

You're not much at following the facts but you have a tremendous future as a historical revisionist.

You're not even close to the reality of the issue, such as your failure to even rudimentarily understand it, but you're more than willing to try to spin it your way.

Try again dumbass.

Following the facts? You are accusing someone else of not following the facts???

This thread is about a story where a mother and step father of a little girl murdered her in a brutal way and are about to potentially face the death penalty for it. And you are claiming that the parents committed no crime. If anyone isnt following fact, its you.

[manu1959]

The parents are minors. They can't be expected to understand the full import of their acts.

exactly!...... the government should have stepped in and aborted the unwanted pregancy for them and then sterilized them both so they would not have been tricked into killing their child.....

[Abbey Marie]

exactly!...... the government should have stepped in and aborted the unwanted pregancy for them and then sterilized them both so they would not have been tricked into killing their child.....

Interesting, Manu. Perhaps NOW and the ACLU can each file amicus briefs, calling this a really late term abortion. :rolleyes:

[jimnyc]

You're not much at following the facts but you have a tremendous future as a historical revisionist.

You're not even close to the reality of the issue, such as your failure to even rudimentarily understand it, but you're more than willing to try to spin it your way.

Try again dumbass.

I'm sorry I don't "rudimentarily" understand it, whatever that word means.

But I'm going to revise history once again and change my stance, just because you have convinced me with your powerful and fact filled arguments.

You stated the parents were minors. Although you're incorrect, they are adults by law, I think we should side with you. I mean, how can't we, besides it being the LAW, you've given us so many other reasons to believe they should be treated as minors.

I also believe the courts should take some responsibility for what transpired, if not full responsibility. They should have visited this couple weekly to make sure they were good parents. They should have had DYFS visit regularly too in order to assess the welfare of the child. They should have made sure weapons such as belts, floors and water weren't available to these minors. We don't allow them to own guns, why should we let them have that kind of stuff? And although it's the parents/lawyers responsibility to request visitation terms and living terms, the court should have decided to make them stay in Ohio anyway. What were they thinking? It's simply "rudimentarily" to know this was going to happen.

I say they immediately release bond on these 2 parents and give them a windfall of money for the poor treatment they received. Nobody should be treated like criminals, not even those who murder their 2 year old children. In fact, the court should be proactive and find them another 2 year old to adopt to make up for their error. And lastly, we should bring the entire Ohio judicial system to court to answer for their crimes. How they sat by idly and watched this couple beat this little baby is beyond words.

Good job, jo jo, you convinced me of reality! :clap:

Now please excuse me while I go puke.

[Joe Steel]

joe, in order to cover up an error, id have to be wrong. its pretty darn clear from the article exactly where i cited that her mother and her step father are being charged with murder. In fact, this is one of the few cases where it actually seems pretty clear that they are guilty before the trial occurs. I have nothing to cover up.

Until your latest posting, you referred to the killers as the victim's parents. The child was not killed by her parents. She was killed by her mother and her mother's husband.

You were wrong.


Sure as hell looks like the article is saying that her parents committed murder. Which of course explains why later in the article they are talking about murder charges:

#78 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=161004&postcount=78)

[Joe Steel]

Following the facts? You are accusing someone else of not following the facts???

This thread is about a story where a mother and step father of a little girl murdered her in a brutal way and are about to potentially face the death penalty for it. And you are claiming that the parents committed no crime. If anyone isnt following fact, its you.

What crime did here parents commit?

As far as I know, her father, Robert Sawyers, is blameless under the law for the child's death.

[Joe Steel]

exactly!...... the government should have stepped in and aborted the unwanted pregancy for them and then sterilized them both so they would not have been tricked into killing their child.....

The parents didn't kill their child. The mother and her husband killed her child.

[Monkeybone]

now you're just splitting hairs. how retarded is that. so you're saying that a step-father can't be a parent? her one biological parent along with her husband, the then gaurdian, by marriage parent killed the girl. how is that? that work for you?

or should we go as far to say that they didn't kill her. it was the skull fractures that more then likely did it. that work as well? and are you actually gonna respond or just go on your "dumbass" dodge?

I am sure that from whatever Planet you're from, that your logic and debating skills make sense Joe. But your weak link is that this is Earth. Hello and welcome. thanks for making me laugh when i read your post. i needed it today.:laugh2::cheers2:

[avatar4321]

Until your latest posting, you referred to the killers as the victim's parents. The child was not killed by her parents. She was killed by her mother and her mother's husband.

You were wrong.

As I said before, last time i checked her mother and step father were her parents.

[LuvRPgrl]

And I am not talking about politicians either. I am talking about regular sick people. Almost makes me question my opposition to the death penalty.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5327597.html

"ALMOST" makes you question....???? WTF dude,,,