the never reached second step....

[PostmodernProphet]

arguments about God's existence always bog down on step one, the existence of any deity and the inability to prove/disprove....

if that issue were ever resolved there are additional steps in the debate but they are never reached....

for the purpose of this thread let's assume for the sake of argument that the first has been resolved and that deity exists....

now then, would a deity capable of creating the universe likely be a deity which would 1) desire to communicate to the created, and 2) be capable of communicating with the created......

[Abbey Marie]

arguments about God's existence always bog down on step one, the existence of any deity and the inability to prove/disprove....

if that issue were ever resolved there are additional steps in the debate but they are never reached....

for the purpose of this thread let's assume for the sake of argument that the first has been resolved and that deity exists....

now then, would a deity capable of creating the universe likely be a deity which would 1) desire to communicate to the created, and 2) be capable of communicating with the created......

Surely #2 is true. Communication should be pretty simple for one who created an entire universe.

#1 is another matter. Without direct experience of Him, we would need to know the mind and heart of the Creator to answer that. In my experience, He does communicate.

[avatar4321]

interesting, these are the questions i had to ask myself when i was still questioning the existance of God. It wasn until I was willing to accept that God was there and that He could and would communicate with His children, that I was ever at a point where He could communicate and I could learn for myself firsthand that He is real.

Granted, It be nice if He said things more often (or if i understood Him). But He clearly does speak. And its a shame that so many people wont let themselves get to the point where they can recognize it when He does.

[PostmodernProphet]

#1 is another matter. Without direct experience of Him, we would need to know the mind and heart of the Creator to answer that.

Deists believe in a god who created but does not communicate......the concept has always puzzled me.....perhaps it is an anthropomorphism, but a deity who created for the purpose of ignoring the created doesn't seem logical.....

[PostmodernProphet]

It wasn until I was willing to accept that God was there and that He could and would communicate with His children, that I was ever at a point where He could communicate and I could learn for myself firsthand that He is real.

that fits in with what we understand about sin, I think.....Adam and Eve could communicate with God in the Garden, but after they sinned their ability to communicate was damaged.....they hid themselves because of their shame and did not respond to his call.....

when we are still victims of our sin we find it very difficult to pray to God, to speak to him, but when we accept Christ and are free from our sin we can not only pray more freely, but we open ourselves to his spirit.....

[Hagbard Celine]

Yes, I think if it's a given that God does exist, then most-likely an all-powerful being would be able to communicate with the sentient beings it created.

[PostmodernProphet]

well, that question didn't seem to stir much debate....how about the next step....

among the major world religions there are very few which present a deity which communicates with the created......three, with considerable overlap, are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.....I do not believe there are any others.....am I wrong in this?

[avatar4321]

well, that question didn't seem to stir much debate....how about the next step....

among the major world religions there are very few which present a deity which communicates with the created......three, with considerable overlap, are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.....I do not believe there are any others.....am I wrong in this?

Im not familiar with all religions (although I know alot) I'm not sure id even qualify a majority of Christians, jews, and muslims into a category of people who believe that Diety communicates with His creation.

They might believe that He communicated in the past, but no longer does today. I dont see how that's internally consistant, but youd really be surprised how many people do that.

[PostmodernProphet]

Im not familiar with all religions (although I know alot) I'm not sure id even qualify a majority of Christians, jews, and muslims into a category of people who believe that Diety communicates with His creation.

????....Torah, the Bible, the Koran?.......all three religions believe the texts are the holy words of their deity.....

[mrg666]

interesting, these are the questions i had to ask myself when i was still questioning the existance of God. It wasn until I was willing to accept that God was there and that He could and would communicate with His children, that I was ever at a point where He could communicate and I could learn for myself firsthand that He is real.

Granted, It be nice if He said things more often (or if i understood Him). But He clearly does speak. And its a shame that so many people wont let themselves get to the point where they can recognize it when He does.

its rare i will react to this argument but :
how could the massive list of attrocities have happened if there truly was a god ?
the list is endless : slavery throughout the centuries , untold wars , genocide etc etc etc

[diuretic]

well, that question didn't seem to stir much debate....how about the next step....

among the major world religions there are very few which present a deity which communicates with the created......three, with considerable overlap, are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.....I do not believe there are any others.....am I wrong in this?

They're essentially the same religion - the first monotheistic religion was Judaism, the others tagged along behind.

[diuretic]

????....Torah, the Bible, the Koran?.......all three religions believe the texts are the holy words of their deity.....

Revealed texts, unlike, say, the Vedas which I think are rooted more in custom than revelation.

[diuretic]

its rare i will react to this argument but :
how could the massive list of attrocities have happened if there truly was a god ?
the list is endless : slavery throughout the centuries , untold wars , genocide etc etc etc

It's easy to deal with that objection. You simply present the notion of a non-interventionist god and load that concept up with the idea of free will being granted by the Great Delegator and bob's yer uncle, all done with.

[PostmodernProphet]

how could the massive list of attrocities have happened if there truly was a god ?

quite simply because there truly was man......

[mrg666]

quite simply because there truly was man......

why


It's easy to deal with that objection. You simply present the notion of a non-interventionist god and load that concept up with the idea of free will being granted by the Great Delegator and bob's yer uncle, all done with.

and again if god rules all and he saw fit to intervene with jesus and many others (moses etc ) why wouldnt he do so in modern times ?

this is an edit
so basicly the more inteligent man as become the less god as spoken or intervened ?

[avatar4321]

its rare i will react to this argument but :
how could the massive list of attrocities have happened if there truly was a god ?
the list is endless : slavery throughout the centuries , untold wars , genocide etc etc etc

I don't want to trivialize attrocities. However, I think they lose their significance in the eternal scheme of things.

Think of it this way. If Christianity is correct. Than Christ has opened the path for all people to arise from the dead. It doesnt matter whether someone was murdered in a bloody holocaust or died in their sleep, any evil done to that person will be healed. Their life will be restored to them.

In fact, thats true with every evil. Christ has paid the price to restore people who suffer evil ten fold. God doesn't take away the experiences, because they are there to help us learn. But He provides a way for mankind to be free, to make their own choices, to face the consequences of those choices, and be restored to their original state with greater knowledge.

Whatever we go through, Christ has descended below it all. Why should we expect to have an easier time?

[avatar4321]

why



and again if god rules all and he saw fit to intervene with jesus and many others (moses etc ) why wouldnt he do so in modern times ?

this is an edit
so basicly the more inteligent man as become the less god as spoken or intervened ?

What makes you think He doesnt?

[mrg666]

I don't want to trivialize attrocities. However, I think they lose their significance in the eternal scheme of things.

Think of it this way. If Christianity is correct. Than Christ has opened the path for all people to arise from the dead. It doesnt matter whether someone was murdered in a bloody holocaust or died in their sleep, any evil done to that person will be healed. Their life will be restored to them.

In fact, thats true with every evil. Christ has paid the price to restore people who suffer evil ten fold. God doesn't take away the experiences, because they are there to help us learn. But He provides a way for mankind to be free, to make their own choices, to face the consequences of those choices, and be restored to their original state with greater knowledge.

Whatever we go through, Christ has descended below it all. Why should we expect to have an easier time?

but how ?
is this not a myth (not unlike the muslim virgin thing ) meant to console the legions of surfs and soldiers thrown at various enemies over the past 2 thousand odd years.
as previously stated i rarely enter this arena it's a man or womans choice to believe this

[PostmodernProphet]

why


/shrugs....did man commit the atrocities, or did God?......

[mrg666]

/shrugs....did man commit the atrocities, or did God?......

if god exsists .... both

[diuretic]

why



and again if god rules all and he saw fit to intervene with jesus and many others (moses etc ) why wouldnt he do so in modern times ?

this is an edit
so basicly the more inteligent man as become the less god as spoken or intervened ?

If Moses tried to pull that one nowadays he'd be binned in the you-know-where :laugh2:

[diuretic]

if god exsists .... both

In the Old Testament. 'tis true He is a vengeful God. In the New Testament He's not.

Humans committed the atrocities, they simply used God as a justification or an excuse.

I don't blame God.

[PostmodernProphet]

if god exsists .... both

so you would argue that every act that man has taken was in accordance with God's will?