The brothers Krongard

[truthmatters]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071203/scahill

Blackwater employs one and the other oversees blackwater. What a cozy little camp.

[darin]

You know that's a slanted, biased "Opinion Piece" don't you?

[truthmatters]

Is it untrue that they have these positions?

The facts in it are solid.

[darin]

Is it untrue that they have these positions?

The facts in it are solid.

just a "yes" or a "No" would suffice.

You know that piece is slanted, biased, and an 'opinion' piece, right? It's chock-full of 'worst possible light' and hyperbole.

Do you know that? Yes. No. Pick one. :)

[truthmatters]

I know you think it is because it does not fluff Bush.

[darin]

I know you think it is because it does not fluff Bush.

I'll take that as a "no." As-in, "No, I truthmatters, did NOT realize everything in that piece was slanted to paint Blackwater and the President in the WORST POSSIBLE light. I didn't know hyperbole was used and extreme labels were applied in an effort to convince the reader to agree with the preconceptions of the author."

You'll do a LOT better when you understand how to spot the difference between unbiased, and fully-biased. Between Opinion pieces and genuine news. :)

[truthmatters]

You always assume such things no matter what the facts say so whats the surprise?

[darin]

It's my ability to read and comprehend what I read - nothing else. Sure i'm blessed with a natural inclination towards Reading Comprehension and Rugged-yet-boyish good looks, AND a God-given sense to judge motivations - the heart of folk...but you can IMPROVE your reading comprehension through practice.

First, I'd suggest you be skeptical of MOST things you read. Research and learn, or do your best to learn or identify the PURPOSE behind a piece. Generally, what you find online fits in one of two categories: To inform or persuade. The link you provided states facts - certainly - but the author's intent is to PERSUADE not inform.

[truthmatters]

You never answered my question, Were the facts wrong in the peice and if so which ones?

[darin]

You never answered my question, Were the facts wrong in the peice and if so which ones?


I don't care about the facts in the story - I stopped reading thoroughly after they called blackwater a "mercenary organization". I skimmed the rest. My replies in this thread are an attempt to help YOU look less foolish. :)

[truthmatters]

I don't care about the facts in the story - I stopped reading thoroughly after they called blackwater a "mercenary organization" :)



I already was aware of this.

[darin]

I already was aware of this.

were you aware of THIS, too?


YOU look...foolish

[truthmatters]

You said you dont care about the facts.

[darin]

You said you dont care about the facts.

I said I don't care about the facts in this story - I care about helping you learn to not look foolish. You're a VERY thick-headed student sometimes. :(

[truthmatters]

We are all students of life and are responsible for what we say.

You are the one who said you do not care about the facts.

When you refuse facts from any source you make your arguement weaker.

[darin]

We are all students of life and are responsible for what we say.

You are the one who said you do not care about the facts.

When you refuse facts from any source you make your arguement weaker.

But, silly woman, I am NOT ARGUING THIS STORY. I don't care about the facts of the story, I care about YOU filling the board with your foolishness. That's why I'm here in this thread.

[truthmatters]

So now we know how you feel about facts you dont like.

You are the one who said it and now you must live with it.

[Kathianne]

So now we know how you feel about facts you dont like.

You are the one who said it and now you must live with it.

You mean like you do? http://debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=154811&postcount=78

Just depends on whose ox is being gored.

[truthmatters]

Do you really feel that rsr was facing the facts of those articles were stating?

[Kathianne]

Do you really feel that rsr was facing the facts of those articles were stating?

Do you really think there should be different standards on 'facts' for you and anyone you disagree with?

[truthmatters]

Do you really think there should be different standards on 'facts' for you and anyone you disagree with?


No and I dont see how you find that I have.

[Kathianne]

No and I dont see how you find that I have.

I'm not going to pm's with this. For a few days you've been coming on and twisting all over, grated driving up the post count. However the convolutions become irksome. You post as if you can't spell or write much that isn't regurgitated from somewhere else, but I've seen you do so, plenty of times. Only here when you are very angry, then suddenly you can act like someone with some writing ability.

In the thread with dmp he made is crystal that the 'facts' were being used, along with bias to create the wrong impression. What he said about not 'caring about facts' was rhetorical and you know it. Here RSR is doing similar to you what you were doing on the other thread, so you cry.

[truthmatters]

He also said he did not care about the facts that were presented.

You dont agree with me so you claim I have done something I have not.

I post my own thoughts all the time. You may have just not read them.

Im sorry you dont like amy writing and typing abilities but I do not think they are any worse than some ohters on here.

I respect facts. I truely believe truth matters. I am not the one who refused any facts as you seem to be claiming.

[manu1959]

No and I dont see how you find that I have.

of course you don't..........

[truthmatters]

Do any of you care about the facts presented in the original post or are you only interested in telling me how much you dislike me becuase you dont agree with me?

[manu1959]

Do any of you care about the facts presented in the original post or are you only interested in telling me how much you dislike me becuase you dont agree with me?

the fact that one brother works for the govt and one works for blackwater means what exactly....

the rest is opinion and conjecture.....

[truthmatters]

I guess the investigation may just get to the bottom of that huh?

[Kathianne]

of course you don't..........

What he said.

[manu1959]

I guess the investigation may just get to the bottom of that huh?

yep .... but at the moment they are innocent ....

[truthmatters]

I note that niether of you will point out how what you claimed can be true in the face of the facts.

rsr was ignoring what was actually said in the articles he posted ( that the way the executions was done may cause sectarian violence) and pretended that the Democrats and the media were sad and upset that Saddam was hanged. dmp was quoted correctly that he did not care about the facts the article I posted presented. How in any way does that equate to me disrespecting ay facts?

[truthmatters]

yep .... but at the moment they are innocent ....


Just like Ted Kennedy is innocent because he has never been convicted of the things you claim he is quilty of.

[manu1959]

I note that niether of you will point out how what you claimed can be true in the face of the facts.

rsr was ignoring what was actually said in the articles he posted ( that the way the executions was done may cause sectarian violence) and pretended that the Democrats and the media were sad and upset that Saddam was hanged. dmp was quoted correctly that he did not care about the facts the article I posted presented. How in any way does that equate to me disrespecting ay facts?

oh that is right.... i forgot that only your vision of the world is correct ... sorry ...

[truthmatters]

oh that is right.... i forgot that only your vision of the world is correct ... sorry ...


Those are the facts plaese show me how they are incorect?

[Kathianne]

Those are the facts plaese show me how they are incorect?

those are not 'facts' rather your interpretations, or 'view of the world'...

[Nukeman]

those are not 'facts' rather your interpretations, or 'view of the world'...
Your beating a dead horse there Kathianne.....

[darin]

So now we know how you feel about facts you dont like.

You are the one who said it and now you must live with it.


Okay - you're an idiot. That reply RIGHT THERE Proves your idiocy. It typifies your method of posting. You get horny pulling things out of context and championing them as a worthy subject to "debate".

My God have mercy on your soul.

[truthmatters]

quoting you is not taking you out of context.

[hjmick]

Your beating a dead horse there Kathianne.....


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/hjmc3rd/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

[darin]

quoting you is not taking you out of context.

Quoting me out of Context is taking me out of context. Don't play coy. You know it, I know it, and the DebatePolicy.com people know it.

[truthmatters]

How was it taken out of context?

Please prove that I changed its meaning by posting it the way I did?

[darin]

How was it taken out of context?

Please prove that I changed its meaning by posting it the way I did?

Here's the context: "I don't care about facts in this story - I care about trying to keep you from looking foolish."


You quote me saying "I don't care about facts" and champion that shit throughout the rest of the thread. Stop your passive-aggressive BS, kay?

[truthmatters]

I don't care about the facts in the story - I stopped reading thoroughly after they called blackwater a "mercenary organization". I skimmed the rest. My replies in this thread are an attempt to help YOU look less foolish. :)

You said you dont care about the facts.

Its what you said in any context.

[darin]

You said you dont care about the facts.

Its what you said in any context.

Hi Liar! :)

[Kathianne]

Just like Ted Kennedy is innocent because he has never been convicted of the things you claim he is quilty of.

He's still free, right? In spite of Chappaquidick and aiding & abetting his nephew raping someone? He's a US Senator? Has been for awhile. Yeah, I guess he was presumed innocent. Some might not think him so. Some don't think OJ was 'not guilty', but until Las Vegas, he was 'free.' Now you can think what you will of the 'facts' presented in whatever form about Blackwater, but until there is more evidence at a trial, innocent wills out.

[truthmatters]

Go back and look at my posts in this thread. I never sugested they are guilty of anything. I brought attention to some previously unknown facts.

If this were Ted Kennedy and his brother you would be all over this Im sure.

[Kathianne]

Go back and look at my posts in this thread. I never sugested they are guilty of anything. I brought attention to some previously unknown facts.

If this were Ted Kennedy and his brother you would be all over this Im sure.

This makes no sense. Not in context, not out of context.

[truthmatters]

Your insistance in your points which are unprovable are plain to anyone who reads this thread. I am beinging to truely understand the small remaining base of Republican voters who cling to Bush policies. Im sure you do realise that this type of tactic and blind hate is why the Republican party has just about self distructed over the last few years even with the huge finacial backing they recieve from the corporations.

American wants to come together and they are not flocking to the republican party to effect this. They are fleeing the party because of the hate and fear that oozes from every poor of what is left of the once respectable Republican party. Bush and the Neo Cons have sent many republican fleeing and they may never return to the fold if you and your fellow clingees dont stop hating for hates sake.

[Kathianne]

Your insistance in your points which are unprovable are plain to anyone who reads this thread. I am beinging to truely understand the small remaining base of Republican voters who cling to Bush policies. Im sure you do realise that this type of tactic and blind hate is why the Republican party has just about self distructed over the last few years even with the huge finacial backing they recieve from the corporations.

American wants to come together and they are not flocking to the republican party to effect this. They are fleeing the party because of the hate and fear that oozes from every poor of what is left of the once respectable Republican party. Bush and the Neo Cons have sent many republican fleeing and they may never return to the fold if you and your fellow clingees dont stop hating for hates sake.
Since I am not a clinging to Bush policies person, I'm assuming you are NOT addressing me. I'm responding to the rest of your inane post. There is nothing to indicate the masses of America are abandoning or coming to either party, that is your own illusion.

[truthmatters]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hQAQdYgCxI0OrLOLCKgqJtSBJvSAD8SU74Q80

An update on the story


WASHINGTON (AP) — The State Department's embattled top fraud investigator, who recused himself from probes into Blackwater Worldwide security contractors over conflict of interest charges, has relinquished even more authority but remains at his post, officials said Thursday.

In addition to removing himself from all queries related to Blackwater, Inspector General Howard Krongard has given up his role in looking into corruption allegations involving the construction of the new U.S. embassy in Baghdad, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

The move came at the request of a congressional oversight committee chaired by Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., which Krongard testified before a day earlier. During the hearing he learned, apparently for the first time, that his brother is a member of Blackwater's advisory board.

"That was at the request of Congressman Waxman's committee because they are doing their own inquiries into the new embassy compound," McCormack said. "Because of the reporting relationship between the IG and the Congress, of course, Howard honored that request."

Despite the fact that he has now recused himself from the State Department's two main internal investigations in Iraq and has come under heavy pressure to resign, Krongard has not offered to step down and is, for the moment, continuing as the inspector general, McCormack told reporters. He did not, however, offer Krongard a ringing endorsement.

"He is still doing his work as inspector general," McCormack said. "Obviously, if there weren't support for his doing his job as inspector general, then he wouldn't be doing that job."





And More

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-state-department-fraud,1,7019781.story?ctrack=1&cset=true


State IG's Brother Quits Blackwater
By RICHARD LARDNER | Associated Press Writer
4:33 AM CST, November 17, 2007


WASHINGTON - The brother of embattled State Department Inspector General Howard Krongard quit as an adviser to Blackwater Worldwide on Friday, two days after the relationship with the security contractor was sharply criticized by a congressional oversight committee.

Erik Prince, Blackwater's top executive, said the conflict-of-interest questions raised by the connection prompted Alvin "Buzzy" Krongard to submit his resignation.




Hmmmm I wonder why they all jumped out if nothing was wrong?

[Immanuel]

Hmmmm I wonder why they all jumped out if nothing was wrong?

First of all, they did not all jump out. Howard Krongard recused himself from the investigation as he should have done and he did it at the request of Rep. Henry Waxman.


The move came at the request of a congressional oversight committee chaired by Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., which Krongard testified before a day earlier. During the hearing he learned, apparently for the first time, that his brother is a member of Blackwater's advisory board.

Regardless of guilt or innocence, recusing himself is the right thing to do.

One thing to note in the quote from the article above is that during the hearing he learned "apparently" for the first time that his brother is a member of Blackwater's advisory board. Oh Please!!! Don't insult my intelligence and ask me to believe that crap!!

Back to the recusal... personally, I think that was the honorable thing to do. It is unfortunate that most politicians would never consider doing so if they are not forced to.

I don't know whether there is anything to the entire story or not, but I say let the investigation continue.

Immie

[truthmatters]

I find it interesting that the brother quit his job as soon as it came to light though.

[Immanuel]

I find it interesting that the brother quit his job as soon as it came to light though.

So do I.

Makes me think about Halliburton again. Major conflict of interests may be involved here. That doesn't mean that I don't think governmental officials should not have dealings with family member's businesses, but when that is the case one had better be certain all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed.

That is also not to say that the i's are not dotted and the t's are not crossed. Only a complete investigation can tell that.

Immie

[truthmatters]

I have to admitt I am not willing to condem the guy for saying he did not know his brother worked for them. Not all families are close.

[Immanuel]

I have to admitt I am not willing to condem the guy for saying he did not know his brother worked for them. Not all families are close.

I didn't condemn him either, but I don't believe he didn't know his brother was on the board. Even, people who are not close tend to know where their brothers and sisters are working unless of course they are estranged and this article didn't give that impression.

Immie

[truthmatters]

That may be why the guy dumped his job so easily. I hope that does not stop ay of the investigation into anything.

[Immanuel]

That may be why the guy dumped his job so easily. I hope that does not stop ay of the investigation into anything.

I hope not as well.

Immie

[truthmatters]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/17/us/17brothers.html?th=&adxnnl=1&emc=th&adxnnlx=1195326099-am4ujqCTxlYZqW0JP4oYng

It seems the brothers do have a strained relationship. They contridicted each other in statements about the knowledge of the job.

This is the same guy who sued his son for a house loan and has been estranged from him also.

This family seems to have alot of problems.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/26/AR2007092602285.html?nav=rss_nation


FAMILY STRIFE
Son Seeks Restraining Order on Official

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 27, 2007; Page A23

The son and daughter-in-law of State Department Inspector General Howard J. Krongard have asked a judge to issue a restraining order forcing him to stop sending "unprofessional and highly offensive" e-mails that suggested the family would be put "on the street" if they lost a lawsuit Krongard has filed against them, according to documents filed last week in a New Jersey court.

The House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform is investigating whether Krongard, a lawyer who was general counsel of Deloitte and Touche, thwarted politically embarrassing inquiries into contractor fraud and treated subordinates poorly.

A letter to Krongard last week from the committee's chairman, Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif.), accused Krongard of creating a "dysfunctional office environment in which you routinely berate and belittle personnel, show contempt for the abilities of career government professionals and cause the staff to fear coming to work." The letter said high personnel turnover has left the office with many senior-level vacancies and only seven of 27 investigator positions filled.

[manu1959]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071203/scahill

Blackwater employs one and the other oversees blackwater. What a cozy little camp.

seems someone was jumping to conclusions......

[truthmatters]

seems someone was jumping to conclusions......


I find it very interesting they statements contradict each other. I think blackwater may have not gotten what they were after in this relationship.
I will remind you I did say I did not automatically disbelieved the man when he said he did not know about his brothers job. It does however seem odd that they disagree about that fact.

[manu1959]

I find it very interesting they statements contradict each other. I think blackwater may have not gotten what they were after in this relationship.
I will remind you I did say I automatically disbelieved the man when he said he did not know about his brothers job. It does however seem odd that they disagree about that fact.

it seems they don't like each other .... why would one lying about the other seem odd ..... unless of course the entire thing is a set up by the evil darth cheney and lord bush to trick all you brilliant liberals into thinking there is no quid pro quo....

you know like pelosi and her nephew's company lennar copr ending up with all the military base redevelopment contracts....mare island, treasure island, hunters point, tustin.....

[truthmatters]

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1743685220071118

Yet more on the story and it seems his lawyer feels like the realtionship is more important than the investigation.

[bullypulpit]

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071203/scahill

Blackwater employs one and the other oversees blackwater. What a cozy little camp.

It should also be of note that Alvin "Buzzy" Krongard joined the CIA in 1998 after leaving a post at Bankers Trust. In 1997, Bankers Trust bought out the investment bank, Alex Brown, which Krongard headed.

It was between September 6th and 9th of 2001 that Alex Brown handled most of the short selling put options on United Airlines, American Airlines, Morgan Stanley/Dean Witter, and Merrill Lynch all of which took serious hits on 9/11. The profits of these transactions went to un-named parties, with $2.5 million from the American Airlines put options was never claimed.

The origin of these transactions was never investigated...Alex Brown has never revealed the names of the investors involved. As the number 3 man at the CIA, "Buzzy" would have been in the perfect position to have know if something was about to happen, and profit from it. But until he, the Alex Brown staffers who handled the transactions and those who profited from the tragedy of 9/11 are brought before Congress to testify under oath about their possible involvement, we'll never really know the truth of the matter.

Source:

<a href=http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article161862.ece>Mystery of terror 'insider dealers'</a>

[bullypulpit]

You know that's a slanted, biased "Opinion Piece" don't you?

"The Nation" is known for its journalistic integrity, which is more than can be said for some right-wing media outlets...you know, like FOX Noise.