This is YOUR Future

[Hobbit]

A wonderful, well-funded, perfect, free, universal access, government run hospital in Australia apparently had cockroaches in the O.R., faulty hoses that injured nurses, and an operating table so old that the surgeon had to play 'catch the patient' when the table collapsed.

Folks, this is what happens to ANYTHING the government is allowed to run, and if we don't quash this idea that your health care isn't your responsibility, this is the very kind of place I'll have to go for health care in my retirement years.

P.S. Under Hillary's original '93 health plan, using a private doctor with your own money would be illegal.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/11/12/1194766588884.html


COCKROACHES crawling on an operating table during surgery, a doctor catching an unconscious patient when an old table collapsed during an operation, and high-pressure hoses exploding injuring nurses in theatre.

These horror stories were revealed yesterday at a NSW parliamentary inquiry into Royal North Shore Hospital. The Nationals MP Jenny Gardiner told the inquiry that the allegations of dirty and run-down conditions were made in a submission from a senior orthopedic specialist, Jeffery Sleye Hughes, who worked at the hospital for 16 years before resigning in disgust this year.

"He refers to the killing of live cockroaches on operating theatre tables during operations and 'no response when I forward a written complaint and response is requested'," Ms Gardiner said.

[glockmail]

Yes its failed whenever tried but Hillary is smart enough to figger it out. You'll see.

[JohnDoe]

A wonderful, well-funded, perfect, free, universal access, government run hospital in Australia apparently had cockroaches in the O.R., faulty hoses that injured nurses, and an operating table so old that the surgeon had to play 'catch the patient' when the table collapsed.

Folks, this is what happens to ANYTHING the government is allowed to run, and if we don't quash this idea that your health care isn't your responsibility, this is the very kind of place I'll have to go for health care in my retirement years.

P.S. Under Hillary's original '93 health plan, using a private doctor with your own money would be illegal.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/11/12/1194766588884.html

WHO of our politicians wants a Government run hospital?

NO ONE, that I know of wants government run hospitals....at best, they want a single payer plan, as Medicare is, where there are no middle men Insurance companies, but the hospitals and doctors and clinics are all private ventures and or NPO's, non profits.

I think America would be fools to want a government run hospital system like the VA Hospitals that we have for Veterans, especially after seeing the chipping paint and rats in them that was exposed the past year!!!!

jd

[Hobbit]

WHO of our politicians wants a Government run hospital?

NO ONE, that I know of wants government run hospitals....at best, they want a single payer plan, as Medicare is, where there are no middle men Insurance companies, but the hospitals and doctors and clinics are all private ventures and or NPO's, non profits.

I think America would be fools to want a government run hospital system like the VA Hospitals that we have for Veterans, especially after seeing the chipping paint and rats in them that was exposed the past year!!!!

jd

Once the government funds something, it runs it, because he who has the money has the control. This 'single-payer' nonsense is just a way to sneak it past idiots who can't see it for what it really is. Once the government is paying for everybody's health care, they'll have to power to demand certain things from hospitals 'for the good of the people,' the same way they do to schools now, and before you know it, our health care system is as crappy as our school system.

[glockmail]

WHO of our politicians wants a Government run hospital?

NO ONE, that I know of wants government run hospitals....at best, they want a single payer plan, as Medicare is, where there are no middle men Insurance companies, but the hospitals and doctors and clinics are all private ventures and or NPO's, non profits.

I think America would be fools to want a government run hospital system like the VA Hospitals that we have for Veterans, especially after seeing the chipping paint and rats in them that was exposed the past year!!!!

jd


VAs were have been rat holes for decades. Why now is the VA's flagship hospital being cleaned up?

[JohnDoe]

Once the government funds something, it runs it, because he who has the money has the control. This 'single-payer' nonsense is just a way to sneak it past idiots who can't see it for what it really is. Once the government is paying for everybody's health care, they'll have to power to demand certain things from hospitals 'for the good of the people,' the same way they do to schools now, and before you know it, our health care system is as crappy as our school system. I can see where you are coming from....but isn't this the case with insurance companies now? Refusing to pay for certain operations that are necessary or the complete care of a sick individual?

The Insurance companies hold the control over people's lives now because they hold the control over the Doctors and Hospitals because they are the "payers" of the hospital and Doctors, no? What makes them any different than a single payer plan payer?

At the same time, I have seen your concern come to life with instances in Europe where the gvt has refused certain operations for their citizens or refused to allow someone left alive on life support or refused to pay for a lung transplant for someone that smokes etc....

I don't know what the answer is to our situation in the usa and the prohibitive cost of health insurance, going up double digit in costs for the past 10 years now, way above infaltion and way above what the average income is growing...

jd

[JohnDoe]

VAs were have been rat holes for decades. Why now is the VA's flagship hospital being cleaned up? Because they were exposed, by undercover work of the media and because we are in wartime, so concerns for veterans are now once again in the limelight perhaps? Regardless, I am glad that they were exposed Glock and I am glad there has been some focus on them after the decades of neglect.

We moved to maine a year ago, my husband is a disabled vet...as soon as we got here he notified the Va, transferred his paper work from the VA in Boston and set up his first appointment with them, which was 3 months out from his request... it is now a year later and they have cancelled his appointment and rescheduled it 3 times, HE STILL HAS NOT GOTTEN IN TO SEE A DOCTOR....

It's a pretty shitty system, no question about that...!!!

jd

[Hobbit]

I can see where you are coming from....but isn't this the case with insurance companies now? Refusing to pay for certain operations that are necessary or the complete care of a sick individual?

The Insurance companies hold the control over people's lives now because they hold the control over the Doctors and Hospitals because they are the "payers" of the hospital and Doctors, no? What makes them any different than a single payer plan payer?

At the same time, I have seen your concern come to life with instances in Europe where the gvt has refused certain operations for their citizens or refused to allow someone left alive on life support or refused to pay for a lung transplant for someone that smokes etc....

I don't know what the answer is to our situation in the usa and the prohibitive cost of health insurance, going up double digit in costs for the past 10 years now, way above infaltion and way above what the average income is growing...

jd

I'm not saying there's not a problem. What I am saying is that government health care will only worsen the problem. The problem we've got is that everybody depends on somebody else for health care. If everybody had to shop around for their own health insurance and actually had an incentive to shop around for price as well as quality, health care would improve across the board. Why do you think America is most famous for advancements in optional procedures (like lasik and cosmetic surgery)? It's because those doctors actually compete for their customers.

[glockmail]

Because they were exposed, by undercover work of the media and because we are in wartime, so concerns for veterans are now once again in the limelight perhaps? Regardless, I am glad that they were exposed Glock and I am glad there has been some focus on them after the decades of neglect.

We moved to maine a year ago, my husband is a disabled vet...as soon as we got here he notified the Va, transferred his paper work from the VA in Boston and set up his first appointment with them, which was 3 months out from his request... it is now a year later and they have cancelled his appointment and rescheduled it 3 times, HE STILL HAS NOT GOTTEN IN TO SEE A DOCTOR....

It's a pretty shitty system, no question about that...!!!

jd

Its complete crap. My Dad's a vet and refuses to use it. My uncle was in the Chelsea Mass VA for a severe leg injury in the late 60's, was in there for nearly two years due to numerous infections and screw ups, ended up getting hooked on morphine, a habit which he had gone back to in the 90's and screwed up his life permanently.

[JohnDoe]

Its complete crap. My Dad's a vet and refuses to use it. My uncle was in the Chelsea Mass VA for a severe leg injury in the late 60's, was in there for nearly two years due to numerous infections and screw ups, ended up getting hooked on morphine, a habit which he had gone back to in the 90's and screwed up his life permanently.
yeah, chelsea, is the VA that matt went to in massachusetts too.....ughhhh!

[glockmail]

yeah, chelsea, is the VA that matt went to in massachusetts too.....ughhhh! They've got rats as big as dogs living in the basement, and a nurse Ratchet around every corner. I remember when I went to formerly request my uncles records from them. They thought I was a lawyer and where whining to each other, and to me, on how they were going to get sued. It was unbelievable and such a waste of time.

[JohnDoe]

I'm not saying there's not a problem. What I am saying is that government health care will only worsen the problem. The problem we've got is that everybody depends on somebody else for health care. If everybody had to shop around for their own health insurance and actually had an incentive to shop around for price as well as quality, health care would improve across the board. Why do you think America is most famous for advancements in optional procedures (like lasik and cosmetic surgery)? It's because those doctors actually compete for their customers.i think i disagree hobbit on shopping for ones own health insurance vs. the employer shopping for it... the employer has every incentive that the individual has, when shopping for reasonably costing health care, and MORE negotiating power with the insurance companies to bring the costs down imo, because it hits their bottom line, their profits!!!

NO insurance companies would be better...in bringing down the cost of doctor and hospital costs...the ''healthcare market'' might actually feel the pressure to reduce prices... i say ''might'' because healthcare is definately different than selling widgits, a human life is at stake, verses a new gadget that someone may want to buy.

jd

[Hagbard Celine]

This happens in the US too. Anybody remember Walter Reed? It doesn't have to do with the healthcare system. It has to do with individual hospital management.

[glockmail]

i think i disagree hobbit on shopping for ones own health insurance vs. the employer shopping for it... the employer has every incentive that the individual has, when shopping for reasonably costing health care, and MORE negotiating power with the insurance companies to bring the costs down imo, because it hits their bottom line, their profits!!!

NO insurance companies would be better...in bringing down the cost of doctor and hospital costs...the ''healthcare market'' might actually feel the pressure to reduce prices... i say ''might'' because healthcare is definately different than selling widgits, a human life is at stake, verses a new gadget that someone may want to buy.

jd I disagree, as the consumer is always the best chooser on how to spend his money. If tye government would not put so many restrictions on insureres there would be more competetion and better prices. Plus there has to be tort reform to keep the John Edward's away from doctor's throats. He alone has cost consumners bilions in "cover the doctors ass" testing.

I think most folks would pick a high deductable policy for catostrophic coverage. When that option is available the costs are relatively inexpensive. If widely available we would see true commodity pricing. Couple that with a Health Savings Account for routine stuff, "Wal-Mart" type walk-in clinics, and you've got the makings of a great system.

[avatar4321]

WHO of our politicians wants a Government run hospital?

NO ONE, that I know of wants government run hospitals....at best, they want a single payer plan, as Medicare is, where there are no middle men Insurance companies, but the hospitals and doctors and clinics are all private ventures and or NPO's, non profits.

I think America would be fools to want a government run hospital system like the VA Hospitals that we have for Veterans, especially after seeing the chipping paint and rats in them that was exposed the past year!!!!

jd

everyone with a D next to their name

[red states rule]

This is the quality of health care Dems want to give all of us


Hard-up hospital orders staff: Don't wash sheets - turn them over
by DANIEL MARTIN - More by this author »

Last updated at 23:22pm on 13th April 2007


Cleaners at an NHS hospital with a poor record on superbugs have been told to turn over dirty sheets instead of using fresh ones between patients to save money.

Housekeeping staff at Good Hope Hospital in Sutton Coldfield, have been asked to re-use sheets and pillowcases wherever possible to cut a £500,000 laundry bill.

Posters in the hospital's linen cupboards and on doors into the A&E department remind workers that each item costs 0.275 pence to wash.

Good Hope reported a deficit of £6million last year and was subject to a report by the Audit Commission because of its poor financial standing.

It recorded 36 cases of MRSA from April last year to January, while cases of clostridium difficile have more than doubled in less than a year to 327. A Government hit squad was drafted in to solve the infection problems last year but the trust is still failing to hit MRSA targets.

Tony Field, chairman of Birmingham-based MRSA Support, said: 'Is that all the safety of a patient's life is worth? 0.275 pence?

'It is utterly disgraceful and tantamount to murder because hygiene like changing sheets is essential to protect patients.

'It proves beyond all doubt that cost- cutting is directly contributing to hospital acquired infections.'

A Good Hope spokesman said the posters went up around two years ago and should all have been taken down by now. But a medic insisted the posters were still on display in A&E and the maternity unit as recently as the past month.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=448395&in_page_id=1774

[glockmail]

This happens in the US too. Anybody remember Walter Reed? It doesn't have to do with the healthcare system. It has to do with individual hospital management. Post 3. Duh. :poke:

[JohnDoe]

everyone with a D next to their name

that is simply NOT TRUE....NO ONE with a D by their name is calling for government owned and run hospitals, like the VA.... some are calling for a single payer plan but some like hillary are just calling for the gvt to pay the private, for profit, insurance companies....

where did you get that from avatar?

[glockmail]

that is simply NOT TRUE....NO ONE with a D by their name is calling for government owned and run hospitals, like the VA.... some are calling for a single payer plan but some like hillary are just calling for the gvt to pay the private, for profit, insurance companies....

where did you get that from avatar?
In the end it will all be the same thing. When the guv'mint is the only payer they will bankrupt the providers then have to take them over. That's the real Hillary plan and why she will not support reasonable reforms as the ones that I have outlined.

[red states rule]

that is simply NOT TRUE....NO ONE with a D by their name is calling for government owned and run hospitals, like the VA.... some are calling for a single payer plan but some like hillary are just calling for the gvt to pay the private, for profit, insurance companies....

where did you get that from avatar?

Dems do want to take over the health care industry. It will greatly increase their power and take the best health care system in the world right down the toilet

[Hagbard Celine]

Post 3. Duh. :poke:

I can't be bothered with reading other people's tripe when I'm already consumed with writing my own :cheers2:

[JohnDoe]

I disagree, as the consumer is always the best chooser on how to spend his money. If tye government would not put so many restrictions on insureres there would be more competetion and better prices. Plus there has to be tort reform to keep the John Edward's away from doctor's throats. He alone has cost consumners bilions in "cover the doctors ass" testing.

I think most folks would pick a high deductable policy for catostrophic coverage. When that option is available the costs are relatively inexpensive. If widely available we would see true commodity pricing. Couple that with a Health Savings Account for routine stuff, "Wal-Mart" type walk-in clinics, and you've got the makings of a great system.what are these restrictions the government puts on insurance companies glock?

and there is no reason now the businesses don't just buy catastrophic health insurance now for their employees if that's all the individual really ''wanted''?

i have read that malpractice insurance and the cost of lawsuits is about 2% of the cost of healthcare.... it needs reform, but in the states that have reformed it, the cost of healthcare HAS NOT gone down in price.

jd

[Monkeybone]

NO insurance companies would be better...in bringing down the cost of doctor and hospital costs...the ''healthcare market'' might actually feel the pressure to reduce prices... i say ''might'' because healthcare is definately different than selling widgits, a human life is at stake, verses a new gadget that someone may want to buy.

jd

i tink that i would disagree with this. yah, it is definatly abuot treating the patient, but to do that the best way you can you need gadgets. and to sell more you make new ones that outclass the old ones with no problems. thye new ones help the doctors treat the patients better than the old ones, so they want new ones that are faster and that give them better ways to diagnosis the patient. this makes companies design better machines and new gadgets.

you get into gov healthcare and you get, "Why buy and invest money into new machines when the old MRIs and CT and Xray machines when the old ones can do it for cheaper?". that is why we have some of the better equipment. and then there is they wait. that right there is enough to drive ppl to come here. there are some cases where ppl would die or have to fight an uphill battle even more if they had to wait.

and with the mangament, that is just gov workers. why should they care? not like there is someone watching them do theirs jobs. and you don't like it oh well?

[red states rule]

what are these restrictions the government puts on insurance companies glock?

and there is no reason now the businesses don't just buy catastrophic health insurance now for their employees if that's all the individual really ''wanted''?

i have read that malpractice insurance and the cost of lawsuits is about 2% of the cost of healthcare.... it needs reform, but in the states that have reformed it, the cost of healthcare HAS NOT gone down in price.

jd

What is next JD? Will Dems want the government to provide homeowner ins? How about car ins? Dental ins?

[Monkeybone]

where are these jobs that give ppl health insurance? any place that i have worked i still have to pay for it, or opt not to have it through work.

[JohnDoe]

there were no middle men when i was young, there were no insurance companies covering a broken arm or stubbed toe....for the most part taking their cut.... we just all paid the doctor or hospital and it was not that expensive...if you did not have the money on hand, they billed you.

[Hagbard Celine]

where are these jobs that give ppl health insurance? any place that i have worked i still have to pay for it, or opt not to have it through work.

I have it taken out of my paycheck monthly kinda like...*drumroll please*...taxes. It's a pretty low fee--I don't miss it.

[glockmail]

what are these restrictions the government puts on insurance companies glock?

and there is no reason now the businesses don't just buy catastrophic health insurance now for their employees if that's all the individual really ''wanted''?

i have read that malpractice insurance and the cost of lawsuits is about 2% of the cost of healthcare.... it needs reform, but in the states that have reformed it, the cost of healthcare HAS NOT gone down in price.

jd

Each State has its own requirements for what insures can and cannot provide. Its a nightmare for them, increases paper work costs and decreases options for consumers.

I think you are wrong on the 2%. For instance many doctors have gotten away from specialties because the malpractice insurance alone is so high. Plus this doesn't take into account the testing that doctors will do just to protect themselves from liabilities.

[Monkeybone]

I have it taken out of my paycheck monthly kinda like...*drumroll please*...taxes. It's a pretty low fee--I don't miss it.

same here Hag.

and probably back when you were youing JD were there as many ppl suing for malpractice for the slightest thing? not saying that everyone does, but ppl jump the gun with the courts alot more now.

[JohnDoe]

where are these jobs that give ppl health insurance? any place that i have worked i still have to pay for it, or opt not to have it through work.you are paying only a SMALL portion of it, your company is paying the bigger portion.

matt and i pay about $260 a month towards the insurance policy for the 2 of us, his company pays the other $650 a month for the full policy.

[Guernicaa]

Yes its failed whenever tried but Hillary is smart enough to figger it out. You'll see.
And you're smart enough to write "figger" for "figure" I see.

[Guernicaa]

As Hagbard explained, this is merely a matter of individual hospital management. There are pleanty of hospitals in the US with appalling records of cleanliness. And there are also hospitals kept perfectly clean, well managed, and with excellent care in Canada.

Universal Health Care is making sure everyone gets health care; it has nothing to do with the hospitals management.

[April15]

I can see where you are coming from....but isn't this the case with insurance companies now? Refusing to pay for certain operations that are necessary or the complete care of a sick individual?

The Insurance companies hold the control over people's lives now because they hold the control over the Doctors and Hospitals because they are the "payers" of the hospital and Doctors, no? What makes them any different than a single payer plan payer?

At the same time, I have seen your concern come to life with instances in Europe where the gvt has refused certain operations for their citizens or refused to allow someone left alive on life support or refused to pay for a lung transplant for someone that smokes etc....

I don't know what the answer is to our situation in the usa and the prohibitive cost of health insurance, going up double digit in costs for the past 10 years now, way above infaltion and way above what the average income is growing...

jd

I am about ready to rob a bank just so i can get health care.

[Monkeybone]

you are paying only a SMALL portion of it, your company is paying the bigger portion.

matt and i pay about $260 a month towards the insurance policy for the 2 of us, his company pays the other $650 a month for the full policy.

yup, that i do. also get perks where certain things are free since i work at a hospital. :thumb:

[manu1959]

As Hagbard explained, this is merely a matter of individual hospital management. There are pleanty of hospitals in the US with appalling records of cleanliness. And there are also hospitals kept perfectly clean, well managed, and with excellent care in Canada.

Universal Health Care is making sure everyone gets health care; it has nothing to do with the hospitals management.

Universal Health Care Hospitals will get their money from whom?..........hey the same people that ran that really good VA hospital .....

you don't trust your government but you want them to manage your health care.....

you probably think you will get a check from the govt and your health care will be the same as you have now...

[manu1959]

This happens in the US too. Anybody remember Walter Reed? It doesn't have to do with the healthcare system. It has to do with individual hospital management.

and which "company" was managing walter reed?

[Hagbard Celine]

and which "company" was managing walter reed?

You do know that Walter Reed is a US government facility right? It's under the same management as the Iraq war. :poke:

[red states rule]

You do know that Walter Reed is a US government facility right? It's under the same management as the Iraq war. :poke:

Both are doing fine right now

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=8680

[manu1959]

You do know that Walter Reed is a US government facility right? It's under the same management as the Iraq war. :poke:

You do know that this would be the same group to manage your universal health care system :poke:

[Monkeybone]

You do know that Walter Reed is a US government facility right? It's under the same management as the Iraq war. :poke:

meh, i think that the war gets more attention than the facilities. because at the facilitis we don't have ppl calling for us to just give up and to pull the plug

[Hagbard Celine]

Here's an article proving that quality varies from hospital to hospital. It has nothing to do with the "system" and everything to do with facility management.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=285995

[JohnDoe]

and which "company" was managing walter reed?Halliburton


Walter Reed. Halliburton. Privatization.
The Washington Post reports that the Army was pressured by the White House to hire a Halliburton subsidiary to take over patient care at Walter Reed. ...

[red states rule]

Halliburton

would you rather have Hillary?

[Hagbard Celine]

meh, i think that the war gets more attention than the facilities. because at the facilitis we don't have ppl calling for us to just give up and to pull the plug

Nobody's calling for that in Iraq. That's a Republican party lie meant to demean Democrat efforts to bring troops home and end our involvment in that country. If Republicans have their way, our military will be permanently deployed as the sole law enforcement entity in Iraq.

[red states rule]

Nobody's calling for that in Iraq. That's a Republican party lie meant to demean Democrat efforts to bring troops home and end our involvment in that country. If Republicans have their way, our military will be permanently deployed as the sole law enforcement entity in Iraq.

Dems are pushing for surrender as we speak

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=8680

[manu1959]

Halliburton

and who hired haliburton....and you do know clinton let no bid contracts to haliburton.....

[glockmail]

And you're smart enough to write "figger" for "figure" I see. And you're too dumb to figger out why.

[glockmail]

Halliburton
That explains why is is the best run in the system, and why the media "exposed" its realtively minor shortcomings.

[Hagbard Celine]

Dems are pushing for surrender as we speak

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=8680

There isn't an "enemy" to surrender to genius. We're acting as a police force trying to keep the peace in a civil war. We need to either pick a side and help them gain the upper hand or get out.

[red states rule]

There isn't an "enemy" to surrender to genius. We're acting as a police force trying to keep the peace in a civil war. We need to either pick a side and help them gain the upper hand or get out.

Pelosi and Reid have to appease their kook base no matter how well things are going in Iraq

[Hagbard Celine]

Pelosi and Reid have to appease their kook base no matter how well things are going in Iraq

Oh really? Are things going swell? Is the Iraqi military completely or even close to being ready to take-over security in Iraq? I didn't think so. It's time to go. Is the Sunni population still completely disenfranchised? Is the democratically-elected Shia-led government that makes back-door deals with Iran to attack Sunni insurgents and US soldiers showing signs of turning around any time soon? Didn't think so.

[red states rule]

Oh really? Are things going swell? Is the Iraqi military completely or even close to being ready to take-over security in Iraq? I didn't think so. It's time to go.

Post your thoughts here

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=8680

[JohnDoe]

and who hired haliburton....and you do know clinton let no bid contracts to haliburton.....
I don't care who runs it truely.... it wasn't any better when the government was running it on its own, as far as I know.... I just did a search on it and found out that a subsiderary of Halliburton is the one who runs it now and thus I answered YOUR question Manu...

[red states rule]

I don't care who runs it truely.... it wasn't any better when the government was running it on its own, as far as I know.... I just did a search on it and found out that a subsiderary of Halliburton is the one who runs it now and thus I answered YOUR question Manu...

I can't understand why anyone would want the government running our health care system

We all know ho well the current government programs are run and how efficiently they spend our tax dollars

[Hagbard Celine]

I can't understand why anyone would want the government running our health care system

We all know ho well the current government programs are run and how efficiently they spend our tax dollars

Why do we let them run the military?

[red states rule]

Why do we let them run the military?

It is in the US Constitution

However, Dems are trying to assume CIC powers away from Pres Bush

[Hagbard Celine]

Post your thoughts here

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=8680

Dodging and misdirection? Why not just say touche?

[manu1959]

I don't care who runs it truely.... it wasn't any better when the government was running it on its own, as far as I know.... I just did a search on it and found out that a subsiderary of Halliburton is the one who runs it now and thus I answered YOUR question Manu...

and who is "haliburton's" boss in this instance.....

[Hagbard Celine]

It is in the US Constitution

However, Dems are trying to assume CIC powers away from Pres Bush

Maybe universal access to healthcare should be in the Bill of Rights. Perhaps the time has come to make the right to medical care a Constitutional right. Afterall, your lot didn't have any qualms about putting discrimination against gays into the Constitution. You shouldn't object to something as pious as making medical care available to everyone.

[red states rule]

Maybe universal access to healthcare should be in the Bill of Rights. Perhaps the time has come to make the right to medical care a Constitutional right.

So who do you want to pay for YOUR health care?

Why stop there? Why not make homeowners ins a Constitutional right?

What about car ins?

Do you want to throw in dental ins as well?

[glockmail]

So who do you want to pay for YOUR health care?

Why stop there? Why not make homeowners ins a Constitutional right?

What about car ins?

Do you want to throw in dental ins as well?
Why not go whole hog and add in a nice beach house with a 6' 20-something blonde?

[red states rule]

Why not go whole hog and add in a nice beach house with a 6' 20-something blonde?

Dems want to be the Mommy and Daddy party and coddle the Amercian people

Thre more dependent on them - the better

[Guernicaa]

Dems are pushing for surrender as we speak

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?t=8680
I would just like to clarify that leaving Iraq right now would not be a "surrender". We "won" the second we were able to take control of their country. All were doing now is playing police, and loosing more soldiers.

If leaving right now is your definition of”surrender", then what’s "win"?

[red states rule]

I would just like to clarify that leaving Iraq right now would not be a "surrender". We "won" the second we were able to take control of their country. All were doing now is playing police, and loosing more soldiers.

If leaving right now is your definition of”surrender", then what’s "win"?

Then go to the thread and post your pro surrender points

[glockmail]

Dems want to be the Mommy and Daddy party and coddle the Amercian people

Thre more dependent on them - the better Its human nature to support the party that panders to you. But you do so at the risk of your own future. Look at black Americans for proof of this. The Democrat Party has done more damage to the black family than the KKK could ever had hoped for.

[Hagbard Celine]

Aww. Isn't that cute? Little did they know they were tromping on one of their own most strongly-held beliefs: the right to life. Oh, but that's the Republican mindset isn't it? They support you with every fiber of their being and would even physically enforce your right to life upon your mother in those first nine months, but then once you're out, sorry pal! You're on your own!
What a joke ya'll are. The right to good health is a far cry from a "beach house." Then again you wouldn't know it if you heard it from a couple of black and white-thinking knuckledraggers. :dunno:

[red states rule]

Its human nature to support the party that panders to you. But you do so at the risk of your own future. Look at black Americans for proof of this. The Democrat Party has done more damage to the black family than the KKK could ever had hoped for.

I see the left as no better then the local drug dealer. They suck you in, get you totally dependent on them, and then do everything they can to keep you dependent on them

They never want to let you go

[glockmail]

I would just like to clarify that leaving Iraq right now would not be a "surrender". We "won" the second we were able to take control of their country. All were doing now is playing police, and loosing more soldiers.

If leaving right now is your definition of”surrender", then what’s "win"? So your definition of "win" is to take control. No wonder you loved Saddam. Our defintion of win is to allow freedom to flourish.

[Hagbard Celine]

Its human nature to support the party that panders to you. But you do so at the risk of your own future. Look at black Americans for proof of this. The Democrat Party has done more damage to the black family than the KKK could ever had hoped for.

Any proof of this nonsense?

[JohnDoe]

I can't understand why anyone would want the government running our health care system

We all know ho well the current government programs are run and how efficiently they spend our tax dollars
I don't want them RUNNING IT.

I want something to be figured out to reduce its cost, so that we can pay for our own without going bankrupt to do it or so that the companies we work for can pay for it, but so that they don't go bankrupt or give away all of their profits by paying for it for their employees.

I am not a big fan of the government paying for it rsr, this is a gifthorse to the businesses that are paying for a great deal of it now.

I differ with most democrats on this issue.

I do recognize that there is a huge problem with the prohibitive cost of healthcare though and think we need to figure out why...and then take the steps necessary to correct it.

jd

[red states rule]

I don't want them RUNNING IT.

I want something to be figured out to reduce its cost, so that we can pay for our own without going bankrupt to do it or so that the companies we work for can pay for it, but so that they don't go bankrupt or give away all of their profits by paying for it for their employees.

I am not a big fan of the government paying for it rsr, this is a gifthorse to the businesses that are paying for a great deal of it now.

I differ with most democrats on this issue.

I do recognize that there is a huge problem with the prohibitive cost of healthcare though and think we need to figure out why...and then take the steps necessary to correct it.

jd


JD, read what Hillary wants. The government will determine your level of care, you must prove you have ins when applying for a job, and the cost will skyrocket

Like most liberal ideas, it will grow, expand, and if the government is not running the health care industry in the begginning - it will before to long

The cost is reasonable now - but it not be once the government gets involved. It happens everytime

[glockmail]

Any proof of this nonsense? You need proof that blacks are less likely to suceed than whites? Do I need to hold your spoon for you?

[Guernicaa]

So your definition of "win" is to take control. No wonder you loved Saddam. Our defintion of win is to allow freedom to flourish.
Such a lovely talking point:
"Allow freedom to flourish"
I assume you mean, let it flourish at the cost of, I don't know, 5,000 to 6,000 dead American soldiers (by the time the war is "over" if we let Republicans have their way) for a weak Democratic government thats probably going to eventually gave back in to a dictatorship?

[Hagbard Celine]

You need proof that blacks are less likely to suceed than whites? Do I need to hold your spoon for you?

For God's sake. Any proof that the Democrat party is to blame for this? Jesus. I feel like I'm having a conversation with Amy the sign language gorilla. Par for the course on debatepolicy.com.:rolleyes:

[glockmail]

I don't want them RUNNING IT.

I want something to be figured out to reduce its cost, so that we can pay for our own without going bankrupt to do it or so that the companies we work for can pay for it, but so that they don't go bankrupt or give away all of their profits by paying for it for their employees.

I am not a big fan of the government paying for it rsr, this is a gifthorse to the businesses that are paying for a great deal of it now.

I differ with most democrats on this issue.

I do recognize that there is a huge problem with the prohibitive cost of healthcare though and think we need to figure out why...and then take the steps necessary to correct it.

jd
The reasons why are simple: Too many lawsuits, too much government interventon, and people expecting the guv'mint to pay for their own toothpaste.

[red states rule]

Such a lovely talking point:
"Allow freedom to flourish"
I assume you mean, let it flourish at the cost of, I don't know, 5,000 to 6,000 dead American soldiers (by the time the war is "over" if we let Republicans have their way) for a weak Democratic government thats probably going to eventually gave back in to a dictatorship?

If you were around in WWII, you would have been screaming to leave France on June 7, 1944.

"We took the beaches so why stay guys?"

[glockmail]

For God's sake. Any proof that the Democrat party is to blame for this? Jesus. I feel like I'm having a conversation with Amy the sign language gorilla. Par for the course on debatepolicy.com.:rolleyes: Look at any urban area with a high concentration of blacks. Take Atlanta, for example. Overwhelmingly Democrat. Huge problem with kids growing up with no Dads.

[Guernicaa]

If you were around in WWII, you would have been screaming to leave France on June 7, 1944.

"We took the beaches so why stay guys?"
Um no actually I wouldn't have, because unlike Saddam, Hitler and the Nazi's actually posed a threat to a America.

[red states rule]

Um no actually I wouldn't have, because unlike Saddam, Hitler and the Nazi's actually posed a threat to a America.

Alot of your beloved Dems said Saddam was a threat before the war and during the Clinton years

Were they lying?

[Hagbard Celine]

Um no actually I wouldn't have, because unlike Saddam, Hitler and the Nazi's actually posed a threat to a America.

Christ. I've tried to rep you like eight times in the past week and it never works. I'm still spreading it around. Just know you're doing good work. :thumb:

[Guernicaa]

Look at any urban area with a high concentration of blacks. Take Atlanta, for example. Overwhelmingly Democrat. Huge problem with kids growing up with no Dads.
Actually no, they're overwhelmingly nothing. The few who actually get out to the polls tend to vote for Democrats because Democrats offer them somewhat of a hope for a better and secure life.

[glockmail]

Such a lovely talking point:
"Allow freedom to flourish"
I assume you mean, let it flourish at the cost of, I don't know, 5,000 to 6,000 dead American soldiers (by the time the war is "over" if we let Republicans have their way) for a weak Democratic government thats probably going to eventually gave back in to a dictatorship? Freedom ain't free, chump. That 5 or 6000 would be 100 or 1000 times that if we don't nip this dicatator thing in the bud before they figger out how to build nukes.

[red states rule]

Look at any urban area with a high concentration of blacks. Take Atlanta, for example. Overwhelmingly Democrat. Huge problem with kids growing up with no Dads.

Baltimore, Md is another great example

Blacks killing blacks and the Dems stand on the sidelines

[Guernicaa]

Alot of your beloved Dems said Saddam was a threat before the war and during the Clinton years

Were they lying?
No, just uninformed, unlike Bush, who was told repeatedly he was not a threat.

[Hagbard Celine]

Alot of your beloved Dems said Saddam was a threat before the war and during the Clinton years

Were they lying?

No, they were given false intelligence by the administration, which ignored the cia on going ahead with unconfirmed source material.

[glockmail]

Actually no, the're overwhelmingly nothing. The few who actually get out to the polls tend to vote for Democrats because Democrats offer them somewhat of a hope for a better and secure life. Like they've been promising to deliver that since FDR.

[red states rule]

No, they were given false intelligence by the administration, which ignored the cia on going ahead with unconfirmed source material.

False intel during the CLINTON years?

[red states rule]

Like they've been promising to deliver that since FDR.

at the cost of $9 trillion

[Guernicaa]

Christ. I've tried to rep you like eight times in the past week and it never works. I'm still spreading it around. Just know you're doing good work. :thumb:
I just tried to rep you to say "thanks" but it wouldnt let me either :laugh2:

Isn't it fun giving spankings?

[glockmail]

Baltimore, Md is another great example

Blacks killing blacks and the Dems stand on the sidelines well they do say how awful it all is and toss money to the animals in the zoo, and that makes the animals happy.

[Hagbard Celine]

Look at any urban area with a high concentration of blacks. Take Atlanta, for example. Overwhelmingly Democrat. Huge problem with kids growing up with no Dads.

Nobody from the hood votes man. Give me a break. Even if they wanted to, Republicans would shut down their poll stations so that it was impossible for them to make it across town. Then they'd require two forms of photo I.D. and a poll tax.:rolleyes:

[Guernicaa]

Like they've been promising to deliver that since FDR.
And many did get it. Some of them, from lack of bad attitude, and being born into a cycle of poverty, have stayed in poverty to this day.

[red states rule]

well they do say how awful it all is and toss money to the animals in the zoo, and that makes the animals happy.

Yea, the Dems in Md just opassed a $1 billion plus tax increase to feed the animals and coddle the lazy

[glockmail]

I just tried to rep you to say "thanks" but it wouldnt let me either :laugh2:

Isn't it fun giving spankings? Duh. Zero rep power means zero rep power.


Thewre you go again revealing your lust for power and control. No wonder you're a Democrat.

[Guernicaa]

Yea, the Dems in Md just opassed a $1 billion plus tax increase to feed the animals and coddle the lazy
Do you give ANY links for the garbage you post?

[glockmail]

And many did get it. Some of them, from lack of bad attitude, and being born into a cycle of poverty, have stayed in poverty to this day. When you vote the way momma voted in spite of all evidence that she was wrong that's what happens.

[red states rule]

Do you give ANY links for the garbage you post?

Maryland Senate OKs tax increase
By Tom LoBianco
November 10, 2007

ANNAPOLIS — Maryland state senators yesterday passed one of the largest tax increases in state history by a one-vote margin.

The legislation to increase taxes more than $1.5 billion moved to the House after Republicans came one vote short of filibustering the measure. The chamber's 14 Republicans then joined with nine Democrats in opposition to the tax package, which passed 24-23.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071110/METRO/111100039/1004

[glockmail]

Do you give ANY links for the garbage you post?
Geez. When he posts texts of articles HFM compliains about that. Poor RSR can catch a break with you libs.

[red states rule]

Geez. When he posts texts of articles HFM compliains about that. Poor RSR can catch a break with you libs.

Libs always try to deny the truth, and can;t stand it when you prove them worng

[Hagbard Celine]

Libs always try to deny the truth, and can;t stand it when you prove them worng

I have yet to know what that feels like :dance:

[glockmail]

I have yet to know what that feels like :dance: Yet again proving rsr to be correct.

[red states rule]

I have yet to know what that feels like :dance:

Well you said the $1 billion tax increase by the Dems in Md was garbage - proved you wrong

[red states rule]

Yet again proving rsr to be correct.

They do that alot, don't they?

[Hagbard Celine]

Well you said the $1 billion tax increase by the Dems in Md was garbage - proved you wrong

Actually that was Obama08. So, I guess you're wrong again. :dance: Keep trying though. It's kinda endearing in a retard sniffing the poo on his finger kinda way.

[red states rule]

Actually that was Obama08. So, I guess you're wrong again. :dance: Keep trying though. It's kinda endearing in a retard sniffing the poo on his finger kinda way.

You can't tell one liberal kook from another without a program :laugh2:

[Guernicaa]

Well you said the $1 billion tax increase by the Dems in Md was garbage - proved you wrong
LMAO!!!

Do you have dementia? Like I'm being dead ass.

--You post a thread on the "good news in Iraq" that The New York Times "burried" on page 1-19. Then in another thread you claim that that "good news" was in the Washinton Post on page A-19.

--I question where you get your facts, you give them, and then say Hagbard was the one who questioned you on it.

Like do you have no memory?

I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this, but when my gramma was taking all of her cancer drugs she couldn't remember things. Is that the issue with you? Or are you just fucking stupid?
If you're loaded on pain killers and shit, I'll lay off you, but if not, you need to get checked for alzheimers.

[red states rule]

LMAO!!!

Do you have dementia? Like I'm being dead ass.

--You post a thread on the "good news in Iraq" that The New York Times "burried" on page 1-19. Then in another thread you claim that that "good news" was in the Washinton Post on page A-19.

--I question where you get your facts, you give them, and then say Hagbard was the one who questioned you on it.

Like do you have no memory?

I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this, but when my gramma was taking all of her cancer drugs she couldn't remember things. Is that the issue with you? Or are you just fucking stupid?
If you're loaded on pain killers and shit, I'll lay off you, but if not, you need to get checked for alzheimers.


It never fails, when libs (like MM) can't counter the facts they fall back on personal attacks

It shows they are losing the debate and compete intellectually

[Guernicaa]

It never fails, when libs (like MM) can't counter the facts they fall back on personal attacks

It shows they are losing the debate and compete intellectually
We aren't discussing any "debate". You showed me the link to the tax increase, and I believed it.

What were discussing is the state of your mental condition, which I don't think is good.

[manu1959]

We aren't discussing any "debate". You showed me the link to the tax increase, and I believed it.

What were discussing is the state of your mental condition, which I don't think is good.

what you do stay in a holiday in express last night?

[red states rule]

We aren't discussing any "debate". You showed me the link to the tax increase, and I believed it.

What were discussing is the state of your mental condition, which I don't think is good.

You can think? Well, I guess that could be considered an improvement

[red states rule]

what you do stay in a holiday in express last night?

as long as the government paid for it

[Nukeman]

Isn't it fun giving spankings?

I have to ask what is your expertise in health care. Are you just a kid who thinks they know about the Health care crisis or have you "read" somthing on it.

I have yet to see you "spank" any one on this board in this thread.

I have worked in health care for 20 years and I have seen a lot of changes. Your little time on this earth is barely what i have been working in Health care and you think you can tell me and others on this board what is better and what is right.

Is there a problem with health care??? Yes !! Is the answer the government??? Hell NO!!!

The government cant even run Medicare effeciently and that drives up the cost. Medicare reimburses 60cents on the dollar for services at an outpatient facility, inpatient facilities are lucky to recieve 40-50 cents on the dollar this is why private health care goes up we subsidize the governments plan. Medicaid is worse for most studies performed medicaid reimburses 20 cents on the dollar so that money has to be made up somewhere.

heres an example of medicaid payment.

PET scan cost to hospital for equipment lease/purchase (includeds maintenance, facility, utilities, and technical componet) $1,600.00
FDG (flurodeoxyglucose) imaging agent for scan $300-$500 dollars a dose.
Physician reading fee appoximately $150.00 dollars (it take about 1.5 hours to read a complete study)

Heres the good part this is what Medicaid reimburses $864.00 global fee that includeds everything scan/drugs/reading fee. as you can see form this example the hospital will take a loss of $1,400.00 dollars and this is one of the studies they reimburse better.(these are actual cost and reimbursments)

The Government will shaft every single person in the US if they get control of health care.

Oh if your young and healthy you will be fine but when you really need any type of new technology or thearpy it wont be there. Companies do research with the hope of making money if that hope is not there you begin to lose a lot of yor research... especially the innovative technologies being developed for health care, I'm not just talking drugs that is a small percentage of actuall care..:slap:

[Pale Rider]

I think America would be fools to want a government run hospital system like the VA Hospitals that we have for Veterans, especially after seeing the chipping paint and rats in them that was exposed the past year!!!!

jd

I don't know what you're talking about, but I've been using V.A. hospitals since 1988. I had major neurosurgery in the William S. Middleton Memorial Veterans Hospital in Middleton, Wisconsin, worked in the Carl T. Hayden VA Medical Center in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as was a patient there, and my current V.A. hospital is the VA Sierra Nevada Health Care System here in Reno, and I can tell you from first hand experience, that every one of them is a nice, clean, modern place. Of course they're not run by the government. They're run by the Veterans Administration, which is funded by the government. I think they've done a good job. But the V.A. isn't the government.

In any case, medical care or hospitals should never be taken over by the government. For obvious reasons, not to mention the colossal and rampant corruption it would include.

[Nukeman]

LMAO!!!

Do you have dementia? Like I'm being dead ass.


I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this, but when my gramma was taking all of her cancer drugs she couldn't remember things. Is that the issue with you? Or are you just fucking stupid?
If you're loaded on pain killers and shit, I'll lay off you, but if not, you need to get checked for alzheimers.
I have to say this is one of the most callous things I have seen you say. I think you need to backup a little and think about what your saying here.

You say you don't mean to offensive but this is exactly what your being...:slap:

[JohnDoe]

JD, read what Hillary wants. The government will determine your level of care, you must prove you have ins when applying for a job, and the cost will skyrocket

Like most liberal ideas, it will grow, expand, and if the government is not running the health care industry in the begginning - it will before to long

The cost is reasonable now - but it not be once the government gets involved. It happens everytimeThe COST is NOT reasonable now rsr, not in the least....it is about $6000 a year PER PERSON, $12k for two people in the northeast...IF you have no preexisting conditions and are over 40, if the both of you are over 50 it is about $20,000 a year for the two, that is NOT CHEAP, that is more than a mortgage payment with property taxes...for goodness sakes.... if you do not make boocoo bucks, not many people could afford to pay their health insurance on their own, individually.

Our businesses come in and pay for the most of it so it is about $4500 a year for Matt and me because of his company and that is not cheap either! If we did not own our home outright, we would not be able to afford even that...!!!

Right now, the government pays for the health care coverage for all of their civil service workers and retirees, the government pays the healthcare for all of our Military, our government pays a good portion of the bill for healthcare that the businesses pay.... for yours and my insurance through the tax deduction they give businesses that pay it, the government is paying the healthcare on all of the Medicaid recipiants-(the poor), the government is paying for healthcare for many of the children in our country through SCHIP, the government is paying for the healthcare for all of Congress, and the government is paying for all of the healthcare costs for our Senior citizens through Medicare....

the government is probably already paying with all of our taxes, 60% of this country's healthcare costs NOW.

Is that really fair to those that can't afford insurance? Their taxes are going to pay for the healthcare of all of those groups that I mentioned above but not for their own healthcare?

I personally, do NOT think that this is fair at all!!!! I don't know what to do about it....that I admit...but I do know that what is good for the goose, should be good for the gander...

jd

[Kathianne]

I don't know what you're talking about, but I've been using V.A. hospitals since 1988. I had major neurosurgery in the William S. Middleton Memorial Veterans Hospital in Middleton, Wisconsin, worked in the Carl T. Hayden VA Medical Center in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as was a patient there, and my current V.A. hospital is the VA Sierra Nevada Health Care System here in Reno, and I can tell you from first hand experience, that every one of them is a nice, clean, modern place. Of course they're not run by the government. They're run by the Veterans Administration, which is funded by the government. I think they've done a good job. But the V.A. isn't the government.

In any case, medical care or hospitals should never be taken over by the government. For obvious reasons, not to mention the colossal and rampant corruption it would include.

I'll agree. My dad went to Hines VA, which saw better days prior to WWII. While his primary care docs were at Chicago based university hospitals, his meds were through VA, also hearing and vision. Why? He was savvy. He was Purple Heart Vet and knew to use benefits. He wasn't going to have his pacemaker installed there, though I think he would have thought that fine. He had alternatives and used them.

With that said, while Hines wasn't Northwestern regarding rooms or doctor's offices, it was clean. It was empathetic and timely. They were respectful. Yeah, it was army green and no wallpaper, but decent. His hearing aids cost him $0. Very close to mine, which cost $2,600 each.

[JohnDoe]

I don't know what you're talking about, but I've been using V.A. hospitals since 1988. I had major neurosurgery in the William S. Middleton Memorial Veterans Hospital in Middleton, Wisconsin, worked in the Carl T. Hayden VA Medical Center in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as was a patient there, and my current V.A. hospital is the VA Sierra Nevada Health Care System here in Reno, and I can tell you from first hand experience, that every one of them is a nice, clean, modern place. Of course they're not run by the government. They're run by the Veterans Administration, which is funded by the government. I think they've done a good job. But the V.A. isn't the government.

In any case, medical care or hospitals should never be taken over by the government. For obvious reasons, not to mention the colossal and rampant corruption it would include. Walter Reed scandal that was in the news is what we are talking about as far as piss poor conditions and the VA in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and the fact that Matt and I moved here almost a year ago and he has been waiting a year to get his appointment...the first appointment was set up for 3 months from when he called and has his paperwork, medical records transfered up here, they have cancelled his appointment 3 times, he still has not gotten in to see them, ONE YEAR LATER and he is 30% disabled!!!!

I agree with you and have said that about not being a government run hospital...and I have also said that NO ONE on the Democratic side is even suggesting that it be a government run hospital system...they are all promoting it to be in the private sector and keeping it in the private sector.

Some are promting it to be a single payer plan like Medicare, getting rid of the Insurance companies....the profits and the overhead of the middle man. But hillary is promoting still using the insurance companies, and so is Edwards as far as I know.

I don't think this will work because it will bankrupt us, UNLESS we figure out a way to contain or reduce the rising cost of health Insurance/health care, which has been about a +10% a year rise, each and every year for the past 10 years and there is no sign of this changing... :(

jd

[red states rule]

Walter Reed scandal that was in the news is what we are talking about as far as piss poor conditions and the VA in Chelsea, Massachusetts, and the fact that Matt and I moved here almost a year ago and he has been waiting a year to get his appointment...the first appointment was set up for 3 months from when he called and has his paperwork, medical records transfered up here, they have cancelled his appointment 3 times, he still has not gotten in to see them, ONE YEAR LATER and he is 30% disabled!!!!

I agree with you and have said that about not being a government run hospital...and I have also said that NO ONE on the Democratic side is even suggesting that it be a government run hospital system...they are all promoting it to be in the private sector and keeping it in the private sector.

Some are promting it to be a single payer plan like Medicare, getting rid of the Insurance companies....the profits and the overhead of the middle man. But hillary is promoting still using the insurance companies, and so is Edwards as far as I know.

I don't think this will work because it will bankrupt us, UNLESS we figure out a way to contain or reduce the rising cost of health Insurance/health care, which has been about a +10% a year rise, each and every year for the past 10 years and there is no sign of this changing... :(

jd



Here is some of what Hilary's and the Dems want to do America's health care system JD


snip

With Rep. John Dingle, D-Mich., she co-sponsored the Children's Health and Medicare Plan, H.R. 3162 (CHAMP) passed by the House of Representatives and now in a House-Senate Conference Committee. The bill would morph the State Children's Health Insurance Program, SCHIP (with a "P") into even more entitlements and social engineering incentives.

It would withdraw SCHIP support for pregnant mothers and their unborn children and would outlaw the prenatal care currently allowed under SCHIP. The bill would also include money for abortion-causing drugs, thus preventing children from being born by killing them beforehand. Yet the bill claims to be about "Children's Health."

As noted by Peter J. Smith of LifeSiteNews.com, it would also remove Title V abstinence education funding, reducing education efforts to safely prevent babies from being conceived in the first place.

By changing what the program will pay for, it limits and distorts doctors' incentives just as changes in your health insurance "coverage" reduces your doctor's incentives to diagnose and treat you, as we described last week.

By pouring more taxpayer money into government-sponsored health plans, the government would take over even more of America's medical system. When government takes over a healthcare system, it can result in a cheaper system than our current one, as in Belgium where the government limits spending. There, most government money spent on healthcare goes to those under 65, according to Paul Belien of Belgium writing in the Washington Times last month. "In America, the bulk of government healthcare expenditure goes to those over 65 years old" he notes.

But, cheap medical care isn't necessarily the best. Mr. Belien's grandfather in Belgium was healthy all his life, until he needed prostate surgery at the age of 90. The surgery went well. But he was given a cheap antibiotic that caused complete deafness by the time he left the hospital; the doctors could have prescribed other, more expensive medicines that didn't have this complication. But after that, Belien's grandfather lost his will to live. "Six months after the operation, he was dead."

"If Americans need bad examples in order to know what to avoid, then Europe is a good place to learn from." writes Belien.

The CHAMP bill also includes bounty payments to the states for enrolling increasing numbers of people in the program. Rather than paying for medical services, the bill would pay government employees to get people to sign up

http://www.newsmax.com/medicine_men/hillary_healthcare/2007/09/17/33273.html

[glockmail]

The COST is NOT reasonable now rsr, not in the least....it is about $6000 a year PER PERSON, $12k for two people in the northeast...IF you have no preexisting conditions and are over 40, ...
jd


(from ehealthinsurance.com, using Portland, ME Zip Code and your stated parameters)


We currently do not offer Individual and Family Health Insurance in your zip code.


Why do you suppose that is?

[diuretic]

A wonderful, well-funded, perfect, free, universal access, government run hospital in Australia apparently had cockroaches in the O.R., faulty hoses that injured nurses, and an operating table so old that the surgeon had to play 'catch the patient' when the table collapsed.

Folks, this is what happens to ANYTHING the government is allowed to run, and if we don't quash this idea that your health care isn't your responsibility, this is the very kind of place I'll have to go for health care in my retirement years.

P.S. Under Hillary's original '93 health plan, using a private doctor with your own money would be illegal.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/11/12/1194766588884.html

This is what happens when a conservative federal government deliberately underfunds the state-based health systems (all state governments here are held by the party which is in opposition to the party in federal government. This government has for the past 11 years wound back its contribution from federal taxes to be paid to the states to deliver health services. The tactic has been to make the states bear the greater burden while the federal government could hoard money and create huge surpluses so that at election time they can bribe the electorate with tax cuts. This has worked up until now but the electorate is now awake to what has been going on and has the baseball bats out for the feds at the federal election 24 November this year. The feds will pay for this.

[red states rule]

This is what happens when a conservative federal government deliberately underfunds the state-based health systems (all state governments here are held by the party which is in opposition to the party in federal government. This government has for the past 11 years wound back its contribution from federal taxes to be paid to the states to deliver health services. The tactic has been to make the states bear the greater burden while the federal government could hoard money and create huge surpluses so that at election time they can bribe the electorate with tax cuts. This has worked up until now but the electorate is now awake to what has been going on and has the baseball bats out for the feds at the federal election 24 November this year. The feds will pay for this.

Oh yea, money is always the answer

The left sees the "rich" as a renewable energy source, They will never run out of money no matter how high the taxes are raised

[diuretic]

what you do stay in a holiday in express last night?

Is that a bad thing? I stayed in one in Yuma, Az a few years ago, it was quite good.

[diuretic]

Oh yea, money is always the answer

The left sees the "rich" as a renewable energy source, They will never run out of money no matter how high the taxes are raised

You'll have to do better than that RSR. It's a fact Jack. Our federal government has a huge intake of tax money and it has been shifting the cost burden to state governments which have a very small tax base.

How it works here is that the states are responsible for delivering the services but the agreement has been with the feds to fund the system and the management has been done through the single-payer Medicare scheme.

Our federal government has been caught out deliberately underfunding the states due to ideological differences. I'm not saying our system is perfect but the fact that even our conservatives won't dismantle it says a lot. Our system works pretty well when it's funded properly. The problems at RNS are directly related to underfunding. If a hospital isn't given a decent budget then things will break.

[red states rule]

You'll have to do better than that RSR. It's a fact Jack. Our federal government has a huge intake of tax money and it has been shifting the cost burden to state governments which have a very small tax base.

How it works here is that the states are responsible for delivering the services but the agreement has been with the feds to fund the system and the management has been done through the single-payer Medicare scheme.

Our federal government has been caught out deliberately underfunding the states due to ideological differences. I'm not saying our system is perfect but the fact that even our conservatives won't dismantle it says a lot. Our system works pretty well when it's funded properly. The problems at RNS are directly related to underfunding. If a hospital isn't given a decent budget then things will break.


Here in the US, whenever a federal program fails - the left whines how it was underfunded

I admit I am not up to speed on how things work in your country - but it sounds like the same excuse that is used here

[diuretic]

Here in the US, whenever a federal program fails - the left whines how it was underfunded

I admit I am not up to speed on how things work in your country - but it sounds like the same excuse that is used here

I don't want to say "because I live here I'm an expert" because I'm not. The thing is that each state and territory is so different, one from the other, that I can only tell you, first hand, what it's like where I am. But I obviously do get local media and the stories about the screw-ups at Royal North Shore in Sydney (long way from me) are being reported. I do think that the New South Wales government Heallth Minister (Reba Maher if you want to google.com.au) is incompetent. In fact I think the whole NSW state government is both incompetent and that it has corrupt politicians in it and I don't say that lightly. And they are from the party I always vote for (Labor). But I'm not blindly going to ignore incompetence simply because they are on my side of politics. Maher should be sacked and the government should go through the state health bureaucracy like a dose of salts.
But I must say that the problems at RNS (ironically it serves a wealthy area of Sydney) aren't replicated elsewhere - although nothing is perfect.

My point is that the problems there are a result of local conditions but definitely aggravated by a lack of funding. Every state and territory is being underfunded but some seem to manage it better than others. My state is doing okay but then it's a very small population (1.75 million people) and it's pretty easy to manage a small population state.

One example of bureaucratic incompetence doesn't denigrate a whole system.

[JohnDoe]

(from ehealthinsurance.com, using Portland, ME Zip Code and your stated parameters)



Why do you suppose that is?I don't know glock, all I know is that we were paying $700 a month for Cobra, off my husband's last job, when we moved here and it took him about 6 months to find a job with healthcare when we moved here.... I did all those searches on the internet and had a bunch of salesman call me with plans....most of them were 12k A YEAR EACH, ON THEIR ESTIMATES for the two of us...taking all of our info down, ages and prescriptions we take yahdeedah.... I was SHOCKED and thought I must be looking in the wrong places??? I couldn't figure out why they were so highhhhhh??? I thought you mean 12K for the two of us, right???? and noooooo, it was per individual...freaked me out completely! Then I did some more surfing and searching and found it for lower but still way more than we were paying on the group policy of Cobra...THEN, THANK GOD, Matthew found a job with healthcare coverage including dental!!!! And I did not have to persue it any longer.... I mean, I was totally FREAKING OUT that health care would cost so much!!!!

But guess what? I recently had a physical and they ran ton's of tests, had a chest xray done and our new health insurance had not gone through yet cuz of the slowness of paperwork, so the hospital sent me the bill for a few of the tests run, and the x-ray as example, was only $57 bucks.......THAT WAS CHEAP I thought....and the ekg that they ran was really cheap too....less than $75.. and the blood work they did was less than $50 bucks.... I thought to myself, what the heck are we paying $260 A MONTH now for when we could afford to go directly to the doctor and even be able to afford the tests they ran...??? the whole physical and all the tests were less than one month of our share towards this new health insurance we have with Matt's new job??? The only catch was that the hospital wanted you to pay your bill within the month of the visit...if it went after that, then why wanted like 25% more ...the prices went up.

In Massachusetts, the whole physical and all the tests would have been at least 3 to 4 times than it was here in Maine....weird? Sure if something catastrophic happened I would need coverage, but the every day things that I might need a doctor for, were very cheap and affordable imo? we have to seriously look in to a catastrophic only plan... I think Insurance companies must be making a KILLING up here....

jd

[glockmail]

I don't know glock, all I know is that we were paying $700 a month for Cobra, off my husband's last job, when we moved here and it took him about 6 months to find a job with healthcare when we moved here.... I did all those searches on the internet and had a bunch of salesman call me with plans....most of them were 12k A YEAR EACH, ON THEIR ESTIMATES for the two of us...taking all of our info down, ages and prescriptions we take yahdeedah.... I was SHOCKED and thought I must be looking in the wrong places??? I couldn't figure out why they were so highhhhhh??? I thought you mean 12K for the two of us, right???? and noooooo, it was per individual...freaked me out completely! Then I did some more surfing and searching and found it for lower but still way more than we were paying on the group policy of Cobra...THEN, THANK GOD, Matthew found a job with healthcare coverage including dental!!!! And I did not have to persue it any longer.... I mean, I was totally FREAKING OUT that health care would cost so much!!!!

But guess what? I recently had a physical and they ran ton's of tests, had a chest xray done and our new health insurance had not gone through yet cuz of the slowness of paperwork, so the hospital sent me the bill for a few of the tests run, and the x-ray as example, was only $57 bucks.......THAT WAS CHEAP I thought....and the ekg that they ran was really cheap too....less than $75.. and the blood work they did was less than $50 bucks.... I thought to myself, what the heck are we paying $260 A MONTH now for when we could afford to go directly to the doctor and even be able to afford the tests they ran...??? the whole physical and all the tests were less than one month of our share towards this new health insurance we have with Matt's new job??? The only catch was that the hospital wanted you to pay your bill within the month of the visit...if it went after that, then why wanted like 25% more ...the prices went up.

In Massachusetts, the whole physical and all the tests would have been at least 3 to 4 times than it was here in Maine....weird? Sure if something catastrophic happened I would need coverage, but the every day things that I might need a doctor for, were very cheap and affordable imo? we have to seriously look in to a catastrophic only plan... I think Insurance companies must be making a KILLING up here....

jd

It sounds like you're close to figgering this out. Heath care costs so much when the goverment gets involved, like the 25% extra if not paid within 30 days (government typically takes 6 months!) or catostrophic plans are simply not available.


I just checked einsurance.com in North Carolina (a red state) for a man and wife both 40, and got the following:

$5000 deductable $0 copay $219/ month HSA compatible
$10,000 deductable $0 copay $133/ month HSA compatible

Thats a lot cheaper than the $1000 that you were quoted. These are inexpensve due to the large deductibles, and the insureres know that you will not be filing paperwork for them every week, but only if you really need help.

For your health maintenace, put money in an HSA and pay out of that to make it all tax deductible.

Imagine if more states had more reasonable laws (ie Repblican) how cheap the stuff would be? My guess is that it would probably be on par with term life insurance.

[glockmail]

The other thing that is happening in NC are that big companies are starting to have the big deductible plans in their benefit plans, then they hire doctor consultants or PAs to come in once or twice per week and take care of all the little office visits. They save on sick leave for their employees and the costs are more manageable then supplying a low deduct plan. The Doc gets pais directly by the company and no insurer ever gets involved unless someone really gets sick or hurt. No insurance card, paperwork, and all the administrative burden that goes with it. The governemt doesn't see a dime of it as its all a legit business expense.

One of my skiing buddies just started this up as a practice and he's making a killing, saving the company he's working for big dollars and the employees are tickled pink. Little Johnny gets sick, goes to Daddys work and even gets to see Dady thrugh the big glass window. Big Johnny gets a scrape from a machine and gets a band aid and anti-biotics in ten minutes and is back on the job in 20. Doc consults with company on making the plant safer so Big Johnny and his buddies don't keep coming in and bothering him.

When you think about it its like it was 80-100 years ago when doctors made house calls, checked sore throats, gave medicine right then and then got paid in cash right then and there.

My point is that there are all kinds of things that people think of to save money when the guv'mint gets out of the way and lets them use their God given brains to make money, and save money and time.

[actsnoblemartin]

I dont want universally bad healthcare


A wonderful, well-funded, perfect, free, universal access, government run hospital in Australia apparently had cockroaches in the O.R., faulty hoses that injured nurses, and an operating table so old that the surgeon had to play 'catch the patient' when the table collapsed.

Folks, this is what happens to ANYTHING the government is allowed to run, and if we don't quash this idea that your health care isn't your responsibility, this is the very kind of place I'll have to go for health care in my retirement years.

P.S. Under Hillary's original '93 health plan, using a private doctor with your own money would be illegal.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/11/12/1194766588884.html

[JohnDoe]

I dont want universally bad healthcare
and this is what was found at our own gvt hospital....Walter Reed


Soldiers Face Neglect, Frustration At Army's Top Medical Facility

By Dana Priest and Anne Hull
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, February 18, 2007; Page A01

Behind the door of Army Spec. Jeremy Duncan's room, part of the wall is torn and hangs in the air, weighted down with black mold. When the wounded combat engineer stands in his shower and looks up, he can see the bathtub on the floor above through a rotted hole. The entire building, constructed between the world wars, often smells like greasy carry-out. Signs of neglect are everywhere: mouse droppings, belly-up cockroaches, stained carpets, cheap mattresses.