*Do Poor Homeless Veterans Deserve Being Thrown Into Jail For Asking For Money?* [Archive] - Debate Policy

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 09:07 AM

1 in 4 soldiers coming home from Iraq become homeless, is what I heard on c-span yesterday and 1 in 3 come home with Post traumatic stress syndrone. I don't know how accurate these figures are, but even if they are half of what they say they are, it seems like an awful lot of people need some help from us.

Pan handlers may appear to be scarey, but they usually are harmless. I don't think there should be a law against begging. From the beginning of time, it seems as though there have always been beggers, and I don't think there should be a law against it. What are they going to do? Put all of these people in jail? Charge them a fine that they can't pay?

The more of these beggers on the street scare us, the more opened our eyes and souls should become to the fact that we have a problem that needs to be taken care of, and that is that soldiers should not be discarded by society when they come home from war...we need more social programs to help their mental state of mind and to help reinstitute them back in to society after they have "served" us, imho.

Pale had a thread on Veterans... that were finding themselves homeless about a week ago, that was a real eye opener for me...we couldn't figure out where their families were and why their families were not helping them...and we never really figured it out but perhaps the mental illness that they come home with is something that families do not know how to deal with and these soldiers that are mentally ill don't want to be with their familes? Who really knows?

Regardless, we need to find a way to help them, not imprison them, imho.

jd

truthmatters

11-13-2007, 09:40 AM

You can judge a society by how they treat their most unfortunate.

So now we are going to go back into the years when people start looking at who these homeless really are?

I hope so because most are mentally ill in one way or another.

This is why you are seeing more vets become homeless. They are sufgfering from post tramatic stress and need our help. Its time to really CARE for our vets and insure they get the proper care along with the mentally ill in this country.

darin

11-13-2007, 09:40 AM

Vet or not, people need to follow the laws of the communities in which they reside.

Vet or not, I'd believe MOST homeless are homeless by choice - there IS No "helping" them.

truthmatters

11-13-2007, 09:45 AM

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week618/cover.html

A large percent of the homeless are mentally ill.

darin

11-13-2007, 09:49 AM

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week618/cover.html

A large percent of the homeless are mentally ill.

So what?

Let's apply critical thinking skills to part of that crappy article. If you don't have critical thinking skills, this may help you, too!

SEVERSON: Jean was diagnosed with a mental illness years ago

A mental illness. WebMD lists "types of mental illnesses" including, Anxiety disorders, Mood disorders, Eating Disorders, psychosomatic disorder, and others. NONE of those would preclude anyone from getting a Job.

and she is not alone.

Of COURSE she isn't alone. So what? WHO is alone? NOBODY is alone. Blatant attempt to draw sympathy.

Authorities estimate that on any given night, one third of America's homeless are suffering a serious mental illness,

"Authorities". "Estimate." Those are Key words which tell the reasonable person the author has VERY little hard evidence - only the opinion of somebody the author considers to be an "authority" in SOME discipline. "Suffering a serious mental illness." Such as....what? How are the illnesses measured in people who likely don't get evaluated by medical personnel? What is the cause-and-effect? Are they mentally ill because they are homeless, or vice-versa?

compared to only four percent of the general population.

...who what? What about 4 percent? The implication is 'only 4 percent of the population who HAVE homes suffers from mental illness. According to the National Institutes for Mental Health, 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older...suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. (http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america.shtml). And SIX Percent suffer from what NIMH considers a "Serious Mental Illness"

What it means, most everyone agrees, is that the traditional approach of providing housing only to those who comply with treatment programs isn't working.

SERIOUS LOGICAL FALLACY there - Most everyone of WHO agrees? Who is "EVERYONE"? It's the appeal to common practice. Because "most EVERYONE AGREES", the conclusions drawn MUST be correct.

That article is SOO FULL OF CRAP...

"I was arrested for jumping a turnstile at a subway just trying to get to church to get something to eat!!" BOO F'in HOO!! Don't break the law!

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 09:52 AM

Vet or not, people need to follow the laws of the communities in which they reside.

Vet or not, I'd believe MOST homeless are homeless by choice - there IS No "helping" them.Begging is NOT against the law dmp? But they are trying to CHANGE the law to make begging against the law.....

Do you agree with changing the law and making begging against the law? I believe that is what cwn is asking?

jd

So what?
Do we take care of the "least among us" or do we imprison them?

A good deal of these Vets are mentally ill, do we change the law so that they can be arrested for their illness and put that cost on to the tax payer for their imprisonment or do we spend money to take care of the mentally ill, with proper treatment and facilities to house them?

1 in 3 soldiers are coming home with PTSS...that is a mental illness, and can be treated ...?

jd

Kathianne

11-13-2007, 10:05 AM

I agree that most of the homeless, certainly nearly all the 'chronic' homeless are mentally ill. The real problem are the laws which intended to be more 'caring' about the mentally ill, have enacted real walls that make it nearly impossible for loved ones to ensure that meds are taken while the problems are addressed. This is true for the vets and non-vets.

So if one 'cares' one should be making an effort to make 'committments' easier.

truthmatters

11-13-2007, 10:07 AM

It blows me away how people who claim to follow Jesus see Sympathy as a human flaw.

darin

11-13-2007, 10:12 AM

Begging is NOT against the law dmp? But they are trying to CHANGE the law to make begging against the law.....

Do you agree with changing the law and making begging against the law? I believe that is what cwn is asking?

jd

Why do you think people want to make begging against the law? From which orifice did you pull THAT conclusion?

Do we take care of the "least among us" or do we imprison them?

That's not even a real question.

A good deal of these Vets are mentally ill, do we change the law so that they can be arrested for their illness and put that cost on to the tax payer for their imprisonment or do we spend money to take care of the mentally ill, with proper treatment and facilities to house them?

of THESE vets? WHICH Vets? Mentally ill? What are you talking about now? Ya know, you make threads impossible to follow by your HUGE LEAPS in "Logic".

1 in 3 soldiers are coming home with PTSS...that is a mental illness, and can be treated ...?

jd

Are seriously asking that question? 1 in 3 eh? Hrm...I know at least 20 Iraq vets. I'm in daily contact with probably twice that. None have PTSD.

It blows me away how people who claim to follow Jesus see Sympathy as a human flaw.

It blows ME away how folk enable poverty and misery and call it 'following Christ".

I am sympathetic for people who aren't homeless by choice. I'm sympathetic for folk who take their meds, and struggle to make ends meet. I'm NOT sympathetic for folk who refuse help and sit back and play the victim. (think Hurricane Katrina - thousands of folks who refused to leave, or refused to even ATTEMPT to help themselves. Think 'homeless' folk who refuse to better their condition. In fact, ANYONE who "Demands" help is a numbnuts. They get nothing from me. Help is to be appreciated, not expected.

truthmatters

11-13-2007, 10:32 AM

Helping people in need is what Jesus said we should do.

People who are cold, hungry and Ill is just who Jesus wanted us to help.

Feeding , housing and treating the metally ill is not hurting them.

"We are all collectively bonded to each other while on Earth, united in this one supreme purpose: to learn to love one another."

Embraced By The Light, p. 97

darin

11-13-2007, 10:38 AM

Helping people in need is what Jesus said we should do.

That happens. What's your point as it relates to this article?

People who are cold, hungry and Ill is just who Jesus wanted us to help.

Enabling people isn't helping them. It's hating them. It's doing work to make YOURSELF feel better w/o regard to the amount of help is REALLY going on.

Feeding , housing and treating the metally ill is not hurting them.

Let's take, for argument's sake, the fictitious "33% of homeless suffer a serious mental illness" figure.

What about the OTHER 66%? One could conclude they are homeless by circumstance or choice, right?

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 10:39 AM

Why do you think people want to make begging against the law? From which orifice did you pull THAT conclusion?

That's not even a real question.

of THESE vets? WHICH Vets? Mentally ill? What are you talking about now? Ya know, you make threads impossible to follow by your HUGE LEAPS in "Logic".

Are seriously asking that question? 1 in 3 eh? Hrm...I know at least 20 Iraq vets. I'm in daily contact with probably twice that. None have PTSD.

It blows ME away how folk enable poverty and misery and call it 'following Christ".

I am sympathetic for people who aren't homeless by choice. I'm sympathetic for folk who take their meds, and struggle to make ends meet. I'm NOT sympathetic for folk who refuse help and sit back and play the victim. (think Hurricane Katrina - thousands of folks who refused to leave, or refused to even ATTEMPT to help themselves. Think 'homeless' folk who refuse to better their condition. In fact, ANYONE who "Demands" help is a numbnuts. They get nothing from me. Help is to be appreciated, not expected.

fyi

Veterans Report Mental Distress
About a Third Returning From Iraq Seek Help

By Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, March 1, 2006; Page A01

More than one in three soldiers and Marines who have served in Iraq later sought help for mental health problems, according to a comprehensive snapshot by Army experts of the psyches of men and women returning from the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and other places.

The accounts of more than 300,000 soldiers and Marines returning from several theaters paint an unusually detailed picture of the psychological impact of the various conflicts. Those returning from Iraq consistently reported more psychic distress than those returning from Afghanistan and other conflicts, such as those in Bosnia or Kosovo.

Iraq veterans are far more likely to have witnessed people getting wounded or killed, to have experienced combat, and to have had aggressive or suicidal thoughts, the Army report said. Nearly twice as many of those returning from Iraq reported having a mental health problem -- or were hospitalized for a psychiatric disorder -- compared with troops returning from Afghanistan.

In questionnaires filled out after their deployment, more than half of all soldiers and Marines returning from Iraq reported that they had "felt in great danger of being killed" there, and 2,411 reported having thoughts of killing themselves, the report said. It did not have comparable data from earlier conflicts.

Earlier research has suggested that 12 to 20 percent of combat veterans develop post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which produces flashbacks, nightmares, and intrusive thoughts that disrupt work and home life. The new study found that Iraq veterans have mental disorders diagnosed at the rate of 12 percent per year.

Experts cautioned, however, that they do not have good ways to predict how many people will need help over time. Researchers have found that nearly two-thirds of Iraq veterans who "screened positive" for PTSD and other psychiatric disorders are not receiving treatment.

The new report comes at a time when budget constraints are causing worries about the cost of caring for large numbers of veterans seeking help for mental problems; the Department of Veterans Affairs is already contending with a recent surge in demand for help with PTSD from troops whose combat experiences go as far back as the Vietnam War or World War II.

continued at :http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/28/AR2006022801712.html

darin

11-13-2007, 10:47 AM

fyi

excellent rebuttal to my reply. Well done...

truthmatters

11-13-2007, 11:04 AM

http://home.golden.net/~msavage/ootc/54ways/1.html

Please learn about who the homeless realy are.

The best place to do so is from those who actually help them.

Hagbard Celine

11-13-2007, 11:30 AM

Sorry bout that,

1. But here in Arlington, Texas the City is considering passing new laws against people who pan handle.:coffee:
2. They want to put a new *Label* on it, calling it, *Aggressive Pan Handling*.
3. Their claim is the roaming pan handlers are approaching people coming out of banks, and stores, aggressively asking for a couple bucks.
4. And they further claim that these tramps approach people a ATM machines, menacingly asking for cash.
5. What are your opinions on this?
6. I will explain mine after I get a sense of yours.
7. I couldn't find a link, if you can find one I would appreciate it.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

If panhandlers are becoming a menace, i.e. annoying and lowering the quality of life for normal citizens, then it's perfectly righteous to make panhandling against the law.
If it's against the law, then panhandlers should be thrown in jail, regardless of their backgrounds.
If they want food, they should go to the nearest church/soup kitchen.

Hobbit

11-13-2007, 01:05 PM

Mr. P

11-13-2007, 01:24 PM

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 01:34 PM

I'd say many of these folks would be better off in jail than on the street.

Jail would suck, but they get 3 hots and a cot. Better than sleeping in an alley on a winter night. They're safe there, and so is the public.

No?Are they harming the public, are they killing or robbing the public?

I thought it costs something like $50k a year to house someone in jail? Is that really the way we want to spend tax payer's money verses getting them the mental help that they may need?

Is this where the term "out of sight, out of mind" comes from, if we don't have to see them, then we don't have to evaluate what is causing these homeless situations, like with the mentally ill veterans?

I believe that it would be a waste of alot of tax payer's money to just jail them Mr. P.

jd

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 01:39 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4teq7aKTNJ4

The homeless are leeches who claim they just want a hand up, when they're really just begging for handouts. I'd also like to point out to those who would point out to me that Christians are supposed to help the poor:

I don't have a problem helping the poor, but I'm not going to be a sap.including the one in 4 of the homeless that are mentally ill Veterans, the Hobbit?

How is that supporting the guys that served in war for us?

I am just trying to understand why everyone's feelings are "waxed cold" for the Veterans that are homeless?

I can understand perhaps the disdain for those that are not helping themselves that can, but mental illness is real, and the homeless Veteran situation is real, not something that is just made up?

jd

darin

11-13-2007, 01:47 PM

including the one in 4 of the homeless that are mentally ill Veterans, the Hobbit?

How is that supporting the guys that served in war for us?

I am just trying to understand why everyone's feelings are "waxed cold" for the Veterans that are homeless?

I can understand perhaps the disdain for those that are not helping themselves that can, but mental illness is real, and the homeless Veteran situation is real, not something that is just made up?

jd

You believe things which make the USA look "bad" VERY easily, yet you refuse to believe in anything GOOD and TRUE.

IF 33% of homeless have 'a' mental-illness, and 6% have a SERIOUS mental illness, I'd say 27% of mentally-ill homeless are there by choice.

You and your ilk want to keep them down and out by encouraging their condition.

Hobbit

11-13-2007, 01:48 PM

including the one in 4 of the homeless that are mentally ill Veterans, the Hobbit?

How is that supporting the guys that served in war for us?

I am just trying to understand why everyone's feelings are "waxed cold" for the Veterans that are homeless?

I can understand perhaps the disdain for those that are not helping themselves that can, but mental illness is real, and the homeless Veteran situation is real, not something that is just made up?

jd

If they're willing to work their way up, I'll give 'em a hand. It's the least I could do, but helping someone with no interest in helping himself, just keeps him dependent and does more long term harm than good. If I give a man a fish, I feed him for a day. If I teach a man to fish, I feed him for a lifetime. If the guy would rather beg for fish than catch them himself, he gets nothing from me.

Mr. P

11-13-2007, 01:48 PM

Are they harming the public, are they killing or robbing the public?

I thought it costs something like $50k a year to house someone in jail? Is that really the way we want to spend tax payer's money verses getting them the mental help that they may need?

Is this where the term "out of sight, out of mind" comes from, if we don't have to see them, then we don't have to evaluate what is causing these homeless situations, like with the mentally ill veterans?

I believe that it would be a waste of alot of tax payer's money to just jail them Mr. P.

jd

I didn't say we should just jail them...I said "many of these folks would be better off in jail than on the street". Would you leave them on the street in the winter?

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 01:53 PM

I didn't say we should just jail them...I said "many of these folks would be better off in jail than on the street". Would you leave them on the street in the winter?I see what you are saying Mr. P, and yes, having three meals a day and a roof over their head would be better than left on the street in the middle of winter, in a cold environment. But it is still VERY costly to do such. I think getting them help in a mental institution would be better for them and actually give them a chance at getting better and becoming self sufficient, somewhere down the road.

(speaking of the mentally ill homeless)

jd

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 01:55 PM

If they're willing to work their way up, I'll give 'em a hand. It's the least I could do, but helping someone with no interest in helping himself, just keeps him dependent and does more long term harm than good. If I give a man a fish, I feed him for a day. If I teach a man to fish, I feed him for a lifetime. If the guy would rather beg for fish than catch them himself, he gets nothing from me.

But what does jail give them Hobbit? The fish to eat or the teaching them how to fish?

jd

Kathianne

11-13-2007, 01:59 PM

I see what you are saying Mr. P, and yes, having three meals a day and a roof over their head would be better than left on the street in the middle of winter, in a cold environment. But it is still VERY costly to do such. I think getting them help in a mental institution would be better for them and actually give them a chance at getting better and becoming self sufficient, somewhere down the road.

(speaking of the mentally ill homeless)

jd

Which was my point a few pages ago. Problem is, most don't want to be in these institutions. It's nearly impossible today to have someone involuntarily committed.

Mr. P

11-13-2007, 02:07 PM

I see what you are saying Mr. P, and yes, having three meals a day and a roof over their head would be better than left on the street in the middle of winter, in a cold environment. But it is still VERY costly to do such. I think getting them help in a mental institution would be better for them and actually give them a chance at getting better and becoming self sufficient, somewhere down the road.

(speaking of the mentally ill homeless)

jd

Both jail and a mental institution will be costly so that's a moot point.
The op was about should these folks be arrested. I say yes, if panhandling is illegal. Have you ever been harassed by a panhandler? Some of these folks are pretty dangerous..jail would be a good first step in getting the mentally impaired help.

PostmodernProphet

11-13-2007, 02:14 PM

Do Poor Homeless Veterans Deserve Being Thrown Into Jail For Asking For Money?

just checking....is it the combination of all of the above that makes the difference to you.....

is it okay if they are rich homeless veterans?.......or if they were poor veterans who had a home?......how about poor homeless people who never served in the military?......just seeking clarification......would any one do?.....like if they were veterans who weren't poor and owned a home?.....or maybe a poor person who had a home but was a non-veteran?....oh, it's all so confusing!.....

Hobbit

11-13-2007, 02:22 PM

But what does jail give them Hobbit? The fish to eat or the teaching them how to fish?

jd

The purpose of jail is not to benefit the prisoners, but to keep them from harming society, and if you'd ever been the victim of aggressive panhandling, you'd know why this town wants to put those guys in jail.

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 02:22 PM

just checking....is it the combination of all of the above that makes the difference to you.....

is it okay if they are rich homeless veterans?.......or if they were poor veterans who had a home?......how about poor homeless people who never served in the military?......just seeking clarification......would any one do?.....like if they were veterans who weren't poor and owned a home?.....or maybe a poor person who had a home but was a non-veteran?....oh, it's all so confusing!.....
only as confusing as you want to make it...

btw, it is my understanding that people that are homeless, in general, do not have homes.... :poke:

sure, there are exceptions to the general rule i suppose, but for the most part, i believe they don't have homes... or jobs, and they are primarily mentally ill and alcoholics and drug addicts.

jd

The purpose of jail is not to benefit the prisoners, but to keep them from harming society, and if you'd ever been the victim of aggressive panhandling, you'd know why this town wants to put those guys in jail.sure i have, beneath any given underpass in miami, and on the streets of NYC, but i never called for them to be arrested, and never would, unless they actually physically harmed me, which they didn't.

Both jail and a mental institution will be costly so that's a moot point.
The op was about should these folks be arrested. I say yes, if panhandling is illegal. Have you ever been harassed by a panhandler? Some of these folks are pretty dangerous..jail would be a good first step in getting the mentally impaired help.IT IS NOT illegal right now mr p., but they want to change their laws to make it illegal, is my understanding...

so, do you think they should CHANGE the law and MAKE IT illegal is the question, i suppose...?

and a mental institution may teach them HOW to fish, verses the jail which just gives them the fish, thus the mental institution in the long run, could cost us tax payer's less is my thinking.

jd

Mr. P

11-13-2007, 02:43 PM

IT IS NOT illegal right now mr p., but they want to change their laws to make it illegal, is my understanding...

so, do you think they should CHANGE the law and MAKE IT illegal is the question, i suppose...?

and a mental institution may teach them HOW to fish, verses the jail which just gives them the fish, thus the mental institution in the long run, could cost us tax payer's less is my thinking.

jd

It is illegal in some parts of Atlanta. With so many panhandlers that are just scammers yes, I think it should be illegal.

Hagbard Celine

11-13-2007, 02:44 PM

The purpose of jail is not to benefit the prisoners, but to keep them from harming society, and if you'd ever been the victim of aggressive panhandling, you'd know why this town wants to put those guys in jail.

One new way of thinking is that it's better for both society and the prisoner if jails "rehabilitate" prisoners so that they will not continue their criminal ways when they get out.

Kathianne

11-13-2007, 02:45 PM

One new way of thinking is that it's better for both society and the prisoner if jails "rehabilitate" prisoners so that they will not continue their criminal ways when they get out.

That was the mantra for the 70's and 80's. Unfortunately it didn't pan out. However, the prisons did get updated, to a degree.

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 02:59 PM

i might remind people that the vets that are mentally ill because of their time serving in a war zone, did not CHOOSE to get their mental illness.

darin

11-13-2007, 03:14 PM

i might remind people that the vets that are mentally ill because of their time serving in a war zone, did not CHOOSE to get their mental illness.

And that has WHAT to do with the homeless?

Do you not see the err of your 'logic'?

You ASSume of those homeless mentally ill folk x% are vets. Therefore, they MUST Have PTSD. Further, you ASSume they acquired their very-treatable condition due to warfare.

People don't CHOOSE PTSD - but they ABSOLUTELY choose whether or not to seek treatment.

Face it - you have NO IDEA what PTSD and Veterans and mental illness have to do with this thread; you're throwing those out to create false delimma.

Kathianne

11-13-2007, 03:21 PM

i might remind people that the vets that are mentally ill because of their time serving in a war zone, did not CHOOSE to get their mental illness.

Does that mean that anyone NOT serving in a war zone, chooses their mental illness?

darin

11-13-2007, 03:25 PM

Does that mean that anyone NOT serving in a war zone, chooses their mental illness?

You're a teacher....explain this to me?

if 33% of homeless are mentally ill...and 1 in four (25%) homeless is a vet, does it stand that 33% of 25% of homeless are mentally ill vets?

JD seems to care ONLY about what? 8% of all homeless?

Pale Rider

11-13-2007, 03:42 PM

One new way of thinking is that it's better for both society and the prisoner if jails "rehabilitate" prisoners so that they will not continue their criminal ways when they get out.

If you're sent to jail, it's a "punishment." Thank God one good sheriff down in Arizona by the name of Joe Arpaio understand this.

Pale Rider

11-13-2007, 03:50 PM

Not long ago I was out with a couple friends. We stopped at this little watering hole near down town Reno. When we left I had parked over in a nearby parking lot. When I got to my truck there two shady characters standing by another vehicle about fifteen feet away. When I walked up to my truck I greeted them with the usual whats up. They answered not to good and asked for money. My reply was the same as always, no, I don't give away money. As I got my door unlocked and opened it, I noticed one of them had approached me while I had my back turned. Instead of jumping up into my truck, it's lifted, I turned and faced him. Just then my bro came pulling up on his Harley. The guy backed up, and I moved towards him. I asked him if he had a problem. He said no. As I moved closer to him I said, if you think you want some you, you got a huge fucking problem. Boya got off his Harley and the two started to look scared. I told them if they need money to get a fucking job. Don't be down here looking to mug someone, and that if I ever saw them again, I was going to beat the fucking shit out of them. They hurried off once they knew we weren't going to wreck them.

So what do I think of panhandlers, get the fuck away from me and get a fucking job.

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 04:14 PM

Does that mean that anyone NOT serving in a war zone, chooses their mental illness?
no, but if you READ the name of CWN's thread title, his questions and concern was about veterans, and that is who i was mainly addressing to keep the thread on topic kathianne.

jd

darin

11-13-2007, 04:19 PM

no, but if you READ the name of CWN's thread title, his questions and concern was about veterans, and that is who i was mainly addressing to keep the thread on topic kathianne.

jd

...but the subject is "aggressive panhandlers" - not at-most 8 percent of homeless folk.

jimnyc

11-13-2007, 04:27 PM

If you're capable of going up to someone and asking for money or assistance, then you are capable of going to a shelter, clinic or hospital and ask for assistance. Money can and most likely will be used for booze or drugs. Let them go the the appropriate places and "beg" and they'll better get what they need.

Trigg

11-13-2007, 04:34 PM

jimnyc

11-13-2007, 04:39 PM

I just skimmed through this thread so if this was already mentioned than forgive me.

While living in New Orleans the paper did a story about beggers (the city was FULL of them).

2 in particular were found to switch out during the day, it gets boring sitting all day doncha know. These 2 drive home to their house, after their "shift" was over.

Those poor people.

That's another reason I don't give them money, half of them are scams. I was leaving NYC one day about 10 years ago and there was a woman standing alongside her car with the hood up. She was holding up a sign that stated that her water pump blew out and she needed extra money to have it replaced so she can get back to Ohio. Damn, 2 weeks later I was back in the city and leaving once again, and there she was! I also saw a video of a guy in traffic in a wheelchair going window to window begging. After the light turned green and the cars left, he jumped up and ran his wheelchair to the beginning of the line again to start over!

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 04:40 PM

You're a teacher....explain this to me?

if 33% of homeless are mentally ill...and 1 in four (25%) homeless is a vet, does it stand that 33% of 25% of homeless are mentally ill vets?

JD seems to care ONLY about what? 8% of all homeless?not a math guru huh? or a logic guru either, huh? :laugh2:

1 of 4 become homeless, so extrapolated 3 out of 12 become homeless, 1 of 3 develop mental illness, extrapolated... that would be 4 of 12 develop mental illness.

This could mean that ALL, 100% of the homeless Vets are also ALL mentally ill....

I would presume that healthy vets, with healthy minds, do not become homeless or jobless...for any length of time....and that some of the mentally ill do not end up homeless.

jd

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 04:48 PM

That's another reason I don't give them money, half of them are scams. I was leaving NYC one day about 10 years ago and there was a woman standing alongside her car with the hood up. She was holding up a sign that stated that her water pump blew out and she needed extra money to have it replaced so she can get back to Ohio. Damn, 2 weeks later I was back in the city and leaving once again, and there she was! I also saw a video of a guy in traffic in a wheelchair going window to window begging. After the light turned green and the cars left, he jumped up and ran his wheelchair to the beginning of the line again to start over! I have even seen some of the homeless or the ones faking homelessness in NYC, USE THEIR KIDS to beg with them...to try to get more money or sympathy....sheesh...

But I do not think that the majority of beggers are faking it, the majority of them are drug addicts or alcoholics is what I have read...about 70% of them. They could also be a vet and they could also have a mental illness and be part of this 70% that does drugs or abuses alcohol though...

jd

Hagbard Celine

11-13-2007, 04:53 PM

manu1959

11-13-2007, 05:12 PM

My mom volunteers at a homeless foot clinic in Atlanta once a week and she says that all of them either have a mental disorder or an addiction. I think the scam artists you guys are talking about only account for one percent of all homeless. I think it's more rare than you think.

my heart goes out to all those homeless feet....we should get them all gel insoles.....

Mr. P

11-13-2007, 05:15 PM

My mom volunteers at a homeless foot clinic in Atlanta once a week and she says that all of them either have a mental disorder or an addiction. I think the scam artists you guys are talking about only account for one percent of all homeless. I think it's more rare than you think.

Hag...the scammers are going to the bank not the foot clinic. :slap:

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 05:21 PM

my heart goes out to all those homeless feet....we should get them all gel insoles.....

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Kathianne

11-13-2007, 05:35 PM

My mom volunteers at a homeless foot clinic in Atlanta once a week and she says that all of them either have a mental disorder or an addiction. I think the scam artists you guys are talking about only account for one percent of all homeless. I think it's more rare than you think.

So we should base the government actions on the tales of a volunteer at a foot clinic, free no doubt? Not discounting the good your mom does HG, just saying...

manu1959

11-13-2007, 06:49 PM

So we should base the government actions on the tales of a volunteer at a foot clinic, free no doubt? Not discounting the good your mom does HG, just saying...

foot clinic.......what do they do give all the bums pedicures...:laugh2:

chesswarsnow

11-13-2007, 07:52 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. But some of you seem to have had some rather bad experiences with perhaps homeless people, maybe not homeless people at all.
2. Are people that are homeless and or destitute unworthy of American Freedoms?
3. A right to *Free Speech*.:coffee:
4. And right to ask for help?
5. Are all homeless people inherently *Evil*?
6. Has *Evil* ways gotten them into the position they are in?
7. Did their choices in life get them into this homeless and destitute condition?
8. Was it, that these Veterans would of been better off, not serving in the US Military?
8. Can all newbies to the military be screened for this weakness, if it is a weakness in character?
9. Can we blame being in the Military for the 25 % of all homelessness, or is that just a coincidence?
10. Is charity to a person whom is homeless to be done with a surety that that gift you are giving is strictly going to do good for that person?
11. Is it your right to know just how that couple of bucks you gave in *Charity* to him/her, is spent?
12. All these questions answered right here on DP, and a bag of chips.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

darin

11-13-2007, 07:56 PM

What's not so important is 'how' they became homeless, Id Est, of paramount importance is what they are doing, or not-doing, to better their circumstances. My concern is (it's similar to dealing with kids), giving them 'what they want' really cripples them because what they 'want' (money from me) goes against what they need (a swift kick in the ass, to motivate them to employment).

I know, personally, a guy (mentally Ill) who was homeless all summer. Funny how when the weather turned cold he found the desire to get an apartment. :)

5stringJeff

11-13-2007, 08:31 PM

First off, while I don't buy the whole 'we should judge society by how it treats their weakest members' line, I certainly think we should help people who are less fortunate. In this country, in fact, we do a great job with that. I had a friend who ran a ministry to the homeless in downtown Seattle. Several people he ministered to said that it was easy to find all the food and shelter you wanted in Seattle.

It comes down to what others have pointed out: many people who are panhandling are looking to mug people, or are looking for drug money. You are doing a much better service to the homeless by giving to the Salvation Army, United Way, local soup kitchens, etc. than by giving money directly to a panhandler.

chesswarsnow

11-13-2007, 08:36 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. But a little background might do this thread a little service.
2. Yesterday, a friend of mine was working on a job.
3. Doing some service on a commercial building.
4. And around the corner comes this news reporter, he tells him, his name is, Fil Alvarado with Fox News.
5. I have seen him on the local TV news here in the Arlington area, *Channel 4, he does in fact work for Fox News, local station not cable.
6. He walks up to him and asks him if he can shoot a *Live* report on the side of the building.
7. My friend didn't work there at the location, just doing a job, but my friend asked him "Whats in it for them the building owners?"
8. Seeing they were going to use an area for a hook up, *Live*, and all.
9. And then he asked him, "If he could be in it?"
10. Mr. Alvarado, went on to tell him that he was doing a piece on this *New Law* the City of Arlington was pondering to curtail homeless people from *Aggressively~Pan~Handling* (*by throwing them into jail, etc.)
11. Anyway, my friend tells me, he contacted the building owners, and a manager came over and spoke with Mr. Alvarado, about doing the shoot, which of-course they allowed, only if he didn't shoot any identifying signage.
12. My friend told me about it, and I caught it on TV that very same evening *Live* of course.
13. First off they showed some *Video Clips* of the, (Joe Public doing short interviews), there was a lady speaking in front of a convenient store, perhaps Hispanic, spoke English rather well, she said she always feels kinda guilty if she doesn't help them, and its awkward, being approached for money.
14. Mr. Alvarado had many individuals come on camera supporting this *New Law*.
15. Then it goes to him *Live*.
16. He goes on air, saying that The City of Arlington is pondering this *New Law*, and basically he found a lot of support for it.
17. Yesterday was *Veterans Day*

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

PostmodernProphet

11-13-2007, 08:57 PM

only as confusing as you want to make it...

btw, it is my understanding that people that are homeless, in general, do not have homes....

sure, there are exceptions to the general rule i suppose, but for the most part, i believe they don't have homes... or jobs, and they are primarily mentally ill and alcoholics and drug addicts.

/sigh......JD, just trying to make a point about the sensationalism of the thread......a law against panhandling, which certainly IS a nuisance, is an act against veterans?.....nasty thing to do so close to Veteran's Day, don'tcha think?......I don't know why they don't round up all them nasty veterans and put them in a VFW lodge....that's what they are there for right?.....to lock up nasty veterans.....I mean why else would we need VFW lodges since all the veterans are poor and homeless........

JohnDoe

11-13-2007, 09:38 PM

/sigh......JD, just trying to make a point about the sensationalism of the thread......a law against panhandling, which certainly IS a nuisance, is an act against veterans?.....nasty thing to do so close to Veteran's Day, don'tcha think?......I don't know why they don't round up all them nasty veterans and put them in a VFW lodge....that's what they are there for right?.....to lock up nasty veterans.....I mean why else would we need VFW lodges since all the veterans are poor and homeless........
ummmm, i never said these people that are homeless and panhandling were nasty... that happens to come only from the people on your side of the aisle... :slap:

and yes, i would venture to say, 1 out of every 4 or 5, that is homeless and panhandling, is a Veteran.... i think CWN linked the statistics of homeless veterans that just came out, with the new law they wanted to pass to make agressive panhandling illegal....thus the title of his thread.... its not too farfetched to make the assumptions that he made, when starting this thread.

i suppose i missed your point again though.... :eek:

jd

darin

11-13-2007, 09:41 PM

ummmm, i never said these people that are homeless and panhandling were nasty... that happens to come only from the people on your side of the aisle... :slap:

and yes, i would venture to say, 1 out of every 4 or 5, that is homeless and panhandling, is a Veteran.... i think CWN linked the statistics of homeless veterans that just came out, with the new law they wanted to pass to make agressive panhandling illegal....thus the title of his thread.... its not too farfetched to make the assumptions that he made, when starting this thread.

i suppose i missed your point again though.... :eek:

jd

Poor girl...

Honey - Look. He said it was "NASTY" for you to take a thread about panhandling and make it seem those FOR the law are "against Veterans".

He didn't say YOU said Homeless were nasty. C'mon now...slow down a bit. :)

Gunny

11-13-2007, 10:18 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. Okay, but 1 out of 4 are Veterans???
2. You still think its okay to send them away empty?

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

First off, that number is misleading.

Second, if the law is against panhandling, it should include panhandling vets as well.

This is political spin acting as if vets are somehow more desperate or poor and more deserving because they are vets.

How many of those "1 in 4" are people who don't have a job now for the same reason they did 3-4 and got out of the military. Being a vet does not give one some special ability to hold a job if handed one on a silver platter.

chesswarsnow

11-13-2007, 10:31 PM

Gunny

11-14-2007, 06:45 AM

Sorry bout that,

1. I can hear some *Jailhouse* talk.
2. Two guys sitting on a bench in a jail cell, one says to the other," Heyman, what are you in for?"
3. Other says, " I served my Nation as a Marine, 15 years, war ended so I couldn't find another war to go fight, so I ended up on the streets, pan~handling, got busted down on Main Street last night asking somebody for a couple bucks, how ya doin, how about you?"
4. "Ahh hell I was out maiming, raping, and pillaging, various murders, got caught finally, I'm an illegal alien."

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

Dude, you do your argument no service with such a ridiculous analogy. Your argument is based on the premise that homeless/unemployed veterans are somehow better persons deserving of more than any other homeless/unemployed person.

No person who has served in the military for 15 years, war or no,is just put out on the street, war or no. The last time they had a drawdown, military people with 15 years in could opt to either take payment for those 15 years, or be retrained to do something else to finish the remainder of 20.

Besides, just WHICH war don't we have anymore, and WHICH drawdown has caused an influx of military vets among the homeless?

Again, you do not address the number of vets who are ne'er-do-wells to begin with, do one hitch, and resume being ne'er-do-wells when it's over. This reflects neither on the military no society, but personal choice.

I retired after 20, and guess what i did? Went and got a job. It happens.

diuretic

11-14-2007, 07:09 AM

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. - Anatole France.

chesswarsnow

11-14-2007, 08:57 AM

Sorry bout that,

Dude, you do your argument no service with such a ridiculous analogy. Your argument is based on the premise that homeless/unemployed veterans are somehow better persons deserving of more than any other homeless/unemployed person.

No person who has served in the military for 15 years, war or no,is just put out on the street, war or no. The last time they had a drawdown, military people with 15 years in could opt to either take payment for those 15 years, or be retrained to do something else to finish the remainder of 20.

Besides, just WHICH war don't we have anymore, and WHICH drawdown has caused an influx of military vets among the homeless?

Again, you do not address the number of vets who are ne'er-do-wells to begin with, do one hitch, and resume being ne'er-do-wells when it's over. This reflects neither on the military no society, but personal choice.

I retired after 20, and guess what i did? Went and got a job. It happens.

1. But in my study the most Veterans (that are homeless), are from Vietnam.
2. After that war was over, those Veterans were not well accepted back into normal society.
3. Many took up the bottle, and after a lengthy up taking, the bottle took them up.
4. Now they bumble around the alleys and streets looking for another bottle.
5. Do you think these Veterans, as you are a Veteran deserve any respect whatsoever?
6. Some were fighting beside you, some before, and some after you served.
7. What if it were you out there?
8. And I was defending and trying to protect your rights?
9. Explain to me again, why its a crime for a poor person to ask for a couple bucks???
10. When City Councils can dictate speech, and where charity is acceptable, my *Free Speech* alarm goes off.
11. Imagine, yourself in that position, maybe your hungry or thirsty and you fear being cast into jail if you ask some one for a couple bucks.
12. Shameful, if you asked me.
13. Veterans deserve more than that, and so does the average non~Veteran who is still an American protected by *American Rights*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

PostmodernProphet

11-14-2007, 09:33 AM

and yes, i would venture to say, 1 out of every 4 or 5, that is homeless and panhandling, is a Veteran.... i think CWN linked the statistics of homeless veterans that just came out, with the new law they wanted to pass to make agressive panhandling illegal....thus the title of his thread.... its not too farfetched to make the assumptions that he made, when starting this thread.

i suppose i missed your point again though....

yes, but based on what you have said, you missed it intentionally......

as you say, the vast majority of the homeless are NOT veterans ("1 out of every 4 or 5 are").....so instead of saying the title is not "farfetched" you should acknowledge the title was fetched, and for a particular purpose......

chesswarsnow

11-14-2007, 09:37 AM

Sorry bout that,

1. I am seeing many people here unable to take a stand on this issue.
2. And start attacking the form in the message.
3. I guess thats a lot easier than expressing a view that you do not have.
4. Very telling.
5. Some, if not most of you are unable to see the *Big Picture*.
6. Thats why, ( I ), *The Great CWN* am here, to show it to you!

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

truthmatters

11-14-2007, 09:44 AM

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread. - Anatole France.

Im glad someone gets the point.

JohnDoe

11-14-2007, 11:02 AM

yes, but based on what you have said, you missed it intentionally......

as you say, the vast majority of the homeless are NOT veterans ("1 out of every 4 or 5 are").....so instead of saying the title is not "farfetched" you should acknowledge the title was fetched, and for a particular purpose......Actually, as an ex Marketing Manager, his Header or his Headline was quite impressive. :) RSR is pretty good at his "Headers" (thread titles) too....being able to pull out the one thing from an article that will or might catch the public's attention to the article.

jd

darin

11-14-2007, 11:03 AM

Actually, as an ex Marketing Manager, his Header or his Headline was quite impressive. :) RSR is pretty good at his "Headers" (thread titles) too....being able to pull out the one thing from an article that will or might catch the public's attention to the article.

jd

I prefer more intellectually-honest headlines. :)

chesswarsnow

11-14-2007, 11:25 AM

Sorry bout that,

I prefer more intellectually-honest headlines. :)

1. Explain why its not honest?
2. What part of the story am I missing?
3. I think I cut to the bone on this story.
4. Didn't chew a shred of fat.
5. Just laid down my, *Typical Master Piece*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

JohnDoe

11-14-2007, 11:27 AM

I prefer more intellectually-honest headlines. :)
I do too darin, but that is not what makes a Header in today's world, (as I am sure you have seen).

...there are Copywriters who have the job of finding the one thing that will make the headline... Our press does it all the time, then you read the article and maybe 3 lines in it relates to the actual headline, IF even that....but it was the Headline, that got the public to read the article.

jd

chesswarsnow

11-14-2007, 11:35 AM

Sorry bout that,

1. I wonder why this topic is getting derailed from the topic to the *CWN Headline*
2. Stand on your own view point, not in disparaging the, *CWN Headline*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

chesswarsnow

11-14-2007, 12:04 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. But surfing today, looks like I'm taking a day off, hurt my back.
2. Found this interesting article.
3. Fits right in to my thread.
4. Hope you like it:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1114/p01s09-usmi.html

"
America's war returnees: many troubles but more help
The number with relationship problems quadrupled in a new study.
By Gordon Lubold | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
from the November 14, 2007 edition

E-mail Print Letter to the Editor Republish del.icio.us digg

Page 1 of 2

Reporter Gordon Lubold discusses the US Army's efforts to help returning soldiers and their families.Washington - Nearly five years into the war in Iraq, the US Army has taken steps to improve the process by which it screens soldiers returning from war.

Many have trouble transitioning from combat dangers to a normal routine at home. But sometimes just identifying the problem is the issue.

The Army has improved its process by adding a second mental-health assessment three to six months after its initial screening, which is completed as soon as a soldier returns from war. This second screening has allowed the Army to unmask troubling trends among its soldiers: a fourfold increase in relationship problems compared with those reported in the first assessment, a surge of major depression among many, and increased alcohol abuse.

"The whole idea is [that] we're trying to catch these problems early, before they're a diagnosable condition, and hopefully intervene and prevent it from becoming that," said Col. Charles Milliken, an Army psychiatrist, during a recent Army briefing with reporters.

For example, about 3.5 percent of active-duty soldiers in the first screening reported relationship problems. In the reassessment of the same soldiers, taken six months later, that number jumped to about 14 percent, according to Dr. Milliken and two other Army medical officials in an article published Wednesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Ditto for active-duty soldiers reporting problems with post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, the medical officials found. On the initial assessment, 11.8 percent reported problems relating to the disorder; that number increased to 16.7 percent on the second assessment. Likewise, those soldiers reporting depression problems rose from 4.7 percent to 10.3 percent. In the second screening, as many as 12 percent said they were misusing alcohol. Overall, soldiers seen as being at risk for mental-health problems jumped from 17 percent to 27 percent.

Reports of problems increased even more dramatically among Army reservists, but Army officials believe much of that rise stems from the perception that their healthcare coverage will expire sooner than that of active-duty soldiers. So, even though reservists' medical coverage continues after their return, they are more likely to report problems during the second assessment, Army officials speculate. The study was based on responses from more than 88,000 soldiers.

The transition from combat to home has always been tricky. The unexpected length of the war in Iraq has posed additional challenges for the Defense Department, whose readjustment programs were initially unprepared for the depth and number of problems.

Many programs within the unit rely on military chaplains who prepare soldiers for the transition while they are still deployed. Typical is a soldier who returns home after a year and attempts to reassert his authority.

"

5. Also take a closer look at this number, seems they find approximately 25% of these Veterans are at risk of becoming homeless.

"

Overall, solidiers seen as being at risk for mental-health problems jumped from 17 percent to 27 percent

"

6. If they do, would you spare them some change if they asked for it, or have them thrown into jail?:coffee:

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

darin

11-14-2007, 12:06 PM

James. We're in a WAR. ;)

chesswarsnow

11-14-2007, 01:06 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. Okay man I get it, we are in a WAR.
2. Seems these folks who wander the damned streets should be aware we can't give them any money, we are in a damned-able WAR!
3. "Look honorable Veteran, things are tight man, don't ask, I can't give you"

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

darin

11-14-2007, 01:09 PM

Okay man I get it, we are in a WAR. Seems these folks who wonder the damned streets should be aware we can't give them any money, we are in a damned-able WAR! "Look honorable Veteran, things are tight man, don't ask, I can't give you"

My comment was about your last reply - talking about dangers and risks of PTSD, etc.

I'm saying, your headline is biased/slanted/misleading - only serving to paint an inaccurate picture of the law against panhandling.

:)

chesswarsnow

11-14-2007, 01:25 PM

Sorry bout that,

My comment was about your last reply - talking about dangers and risks of PTSD, etc.

I'm saying, your headline is biased/slanted/misleading - only serving to paint an inaccurate picture of the law against panhandling.

:)

1. But try to remember this whole story came up on *Veterans Day*.
2. And whats wrong with seeing the *Big Picture*, and how reality affects others who you would, or maybe you may not want to disparage, with stuff like, "Hey you lazy bastard get a job!" and, "Get a job or I will have you thrown in jail!"
3. While he was taking bullets in Vietnam even before you were born.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

PostmodernProphet

11-14-2007, 03:44 PM

I wonder why this topic is getting derailed from the topic to the *CWN Headline*

because the headline was the only thing that made the topic supportable.....without the magic word "veteran" in there to gain sympathy, all you have is an article about a city clamping down on panhandlers.......

chesswarsnow

11-14-2007, 04:03 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. So because this City of Arlington isn't saying openly that they are going after Veterans, seeing its a known fact that over 25% of the homeless are Veterans, then its assumed they are not going after them?
2. Got it!
3. It happening on *Veterans Day* was just a coincidence too........
4. This kind of disregard for the homeless is one huge problem with America today.
5. This is my thread, that ( I ) *The Great CWN* created.
6. And I wrote the OP as I see fit how this story is what it is, and its relevant too.
7. And properly defines the issue to a tee.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

PostmodernProphet

11-14-2007, 04:08 PM

So because this City of Arlington isn't saying openly that they are going after Veterans, seeing its a known fact that over 25% of the homeless are Veterans, then its assumed they are not going after them?

I think you're right....in fact, I bet right now the cops are going around asking the panhandlers if they are veterans....and if they say no, they let em go and if they say yes they pack em up and haul em to the District of Columbia and drop them off.....they hate veterans in Arlington.....except for the dead ones of course.....

Gunny

11-14-2007, 09:33 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. But in my study the most Veterans (that are homeless), are from Vietnam.
2. After that war was over, those Veterans were not well accepted back into normal society.
3. Many took up the bottle, and after a lengthy up taking, the bottle took them up.
4. Now they bumble around the alleys and streets looking for another bottle.
5. Do you think these Veterans, as you are a Veteran deserve any respect whatsoever?
6. Some were fighting beside you, some before, and some after you served.
7. What if it were you out there?
8. And I was defending and trying to protect your rights?
9. Explain to me again, why its a crime for a poor person to ask for a couple bucks???
10. When City Councils can dictate speech, and where charity is acceptable, my *Free Speech* alarm goes off.
11. Imagine, yourself in that position, maybe your hungry or thirsty and you fear being cast into jail if you ask some one for a couple bucks.
12. Shameful, if you asked me.
13. Veterans deserve more than that, and so does the average non~Veteran who is still an American protected by *American Rights*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

What "study" is that?

Those veterans deserve the respect they earn, just like the rest of us.

The point is, it ISN'T me out there and I know plenty of vets from the Korean War to present and none of them are wandering around looking for a bottle. They came home and got jobs like the rest of us.

You're making more than one argument here and trying to confuse them. Being hungry and/or thirsty and panhandling is not exclusive to vets. What about the needs of the non-vets? Don't THEY count?

chesswarsnow

11-15-2007, 08:42 AM

Sorry bout that,

1. I find this a free speech issue.
2. If they can criminalize a tramp for asking for money.
3. Then whats to stop the City Government to criminalize asking for directions at a gas station?
4. Also asking for a location of a food item in a grocery store.
5. These two examples are based on free speech, and your need to have free information, which, who's to say you deserve it?
6. Those Veterans deserve plenty of respect, even thou they have climbed up on the drunk wagon.
7. And when they die, they deserve a decent military funeral as well, with a twelve gun salute, flag folding and whole nine yards.
8. Either War Veterans deserve all honor or none, you can't honor one without doing it for all.
9. You being a Veteran Gunny should understand this?
10. Free Speech is a deserved right for Veterans and Non~Veterans alike, both get hungry and thirsty, basic human needs, and to criminalize asking for monetary help is a crime it self, against, *Humanity*.:coffee:
11. *My Study* was an informal study I did over 10 years, meeting with homeless people here in Texas.
12. Just saw on FOX NEWS, cable, somewhere up north are trying to criminalize parents who do not get their kids vaccinated, looks like they may have to do *Jail Time*, if they get their way.
13. "Those who have received much, much is expected."

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

PostmodernProphet

11-15-2007, 11:48 AM

4. Also asking for a location of a food item in a grocery store.
5. These two examples are based on free speech, and your need to have free information, which, who's to say you deserve it?

I will forever uphold your right to find the cereal aisle......

chesswarsnow

11-15-2007, 12:13 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. Lets project this same issue over the entire United States if your without food and drink try this on.
2. What if we have a disaster, say a *New Orleans* like flood takes place.
3. Thousands of people are asking for money so they can eat, travel away from the flooded area.
4. Throw the bastards into jail!!!!!!!!!!!!
5. Hows that for being fair? right?

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

chesswarsnow

11-15-2007, 01:42 PM

Sorry bout that,

1. But this link overlays my thread.

http://timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2873622.ece

2. It describes a high suicide rate among Veterans these days.
3. This being the case, if it is true,..... doesn't this limit and diminish the amount of homeless people who if they didn't suicide out, end up homeless on American streets, some day.
4. Does this impact those who feel threatened by homeless people, who they say and or claim are doing *Aggressive~Pan~Handling*, in Arlington, Texas, when all they really want is for themselves and people in general like themselves, who own houses, to go about their normal everyday lives, without being dogged by these *Veteran Tramps* and the average *American*, *Non~Veteran Tramps*?

"
America suffers an epidemic of suicides among traumatised army veterans

Tom Baldwin in Washington
More American military veterans have been committing suicide than US soldiers have been dying in Iraq, it was claimed yesterday.

At least 6,256 US veterans took their lives in 2005, at an average of 17 a day, according to figures broadcast last night. Former servicemen are more than twice as likely than the rest of the population to commit suicide.

Such statistics compare to the total of 3,863 American military deaths in Iraq since the invasion in 2003 - an average of 2.4 a day, according to the website ICasualties.org.

The rate of suicides among veterans prompted claims that the US was suffering from a “mental health epidemic” – often linked to post-traumatic stress.

Related Links
Government ‘gave public false hopes’ on Iraq
Saving the soldiers we neglect
'Virtual Iraq' helps US troops overcome trauma
CBS News claimed that the figures represented the first attempt to conduct a nationwide count of veteran suicides. The tally was reached by collating suicide data from individual states for both veterans and the general population from 1995.

The suicide rate among Americans as a whole was 8.9 per 100,000, but the level among veterans was at least 18.7. That figure rose to a minimum of 22.9 among veterans aged 20 to 24 – almost four times the nonveteran average for people of the same age.

There are 25 million veterans in the United States, 1.6 million of whom served in Afghanistan and Iraq.

“Not everyone comes home from the war wounded, but the bottom line is nobody comes home unchanged,” said Paul Rieckhoff, a former Marine and founder of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans for America.

CBS quoted the father of a 23-year-old soldier who shot himself in 2005 as suggesting that the military was covering up the scale of the problem. “Nobody wants to tally it up in the form of a government total,” Mike Bowman said. “They don’t want the true numbers of casualties to really be known.”

Mr Bowman’s son, Tim, was an army reservist who patrolled one of the most dangerous places in Baghdad, known as Airport Road. “His eyes when he came back were just dead. The light wasn’t there anymore,” said his mother, Kim Bowman. Eight months later, on Thanksgiving Day, Tim committed suicide.

A separate study published last week shows that US military veterans make up one in four homeless people in America, even though they represent just 11 per cent of the general adult population, and younger soldiers are already trickling into shelters and soup kitchens after completing tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.

While it took roughly a decade for the lives of Vietnam veterans to unravel to the point that they started showing up among the homeless, at least 1,500 ex-servicemen from the present wars have already been identified.

The National Alliance to End Homelessness, based the findings of its report on numbers from Veterans Affairs and the Census Bureau. Data from 2005 estimated that 194,254 homeless people on any given night were veterans.

Daniel Akaka, the chairman of the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee, said: “For too many veterans, returning home from battle does not bring an end to conflict. There is no question that action is needed.”

The plight of US veterans is a matter of acute sensitivity for the Bush Administration which has set great store by standing up for – and support from – US troops. This year General Kevin Kiley, the US Army’s Surgeon General, was among senior military officials dismissed for his role in the mistreatment of wounded veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Newspaper revelations about conditions at the Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington became a lightning rod for criticism of the war in general. The outpatient clinic was described as squalid and rat-infested; a maze of red tape left many outpatients – often with severe brain injuries – wandering the corridors without help.

"
5. Maybe some folks who live in America, who want to take *The Right of Free Speech*, from these Veteran's can sleep easier now, that these men are killing themselves before they can come back to America and become, *Veteran Tramps* asking for a couple bucks, as they go about their normal busy day.
6. Sorry bout that, but in telling the truth, you always end up stepping on *The Feet*.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

pegwinn

11-22-2007, 11:31 PM

I skimmed the posts and so may've missed a bit.

Panhandling falls under the public nusiance area IMO. I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I don't see anti-begger laws as a free speech issue.

Many of the homeless are there by choice. Check out the study done by 20/20 a few years back. And, like it or not, this is America. If you want to drop off the radar and live on the street, it's a free country.

The safety net is still firmly anchored, but like addiction, the person needing help has to accept the help.

chesswarsnow

11-23-2007, 09:32 AM

Sorry bout that,

1. But wait there's more to ponder on this quandary.
2. Maybe there should be an area, to usher these poor people into.
3. Kinda like a Zoo, make all the poor go into *Public Zoo's* where they will be separated from the normal people who work.
4. There they could be treated like animals, with signs warning, *Don't Feed The Tramps*.
5. But if you can't resist in feeding them, you must go to the vending machine, to buy special feeds to throw at them, just like the Zoo of old.
6. And anyone caught helping homeless people that are not yet in the *Human Zoo's* would be cast into prison right along with the homeless man.
7. Ahh, Hell why not make it a crime to feed are give money to the homeless, and the perp caught feeding or giving money to the homeless, get ALL their belonging forfeited, and sold to fund the, *Human Zoo's*.
8. Yes that would just about do it,..... "What a wonderful world" that will be.
9. When homeless people are treated like criminals, then your freedoms and rights are next.:pee:*Making Being Homeless A Crime*
10. If a homeless person has to shut his mouth and not ask for help, his right of free speech is taken away, then your rights are diminished when the homeless rights are.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

82Marine89

11-23-2007, 10:00 AM

Sorry bout that,

1. But wait there's more to ponder on this quandary.
2. Maybe there should be an area, to usher these poor people into.
3. Kinda like a Zoo, make all the poor go into *Public Zoo's* where they will be separated from the normal people who work.
4. There they could be treated like animals, with signs warning, *Don't Feed The Tramps*.
5. But if you can't resist in feeding them, you must got to the vending machine, to buy special feeds to throw at them, just like the Zoo of old.
6. And anyone caught helping homeless people that are not yet in the *Human Zoo's* would be cast into prison right along with the homeless man.
7. Ahh, Hell why not make it a crime to feed are give money to the homeless, and the perp caught feeding or giving money to the homeless, get ALL their belonging forfeited, and sold to fund the, *Human Zoo's*.
8. Yes that would just about do it,..... "What a wonderful world" that will be.
9. When homeless people are treated like criminals, then your freedoms and rights are next.:pee:*Making Being Homeless A Crime*
10. If a homeless person has to shut his mouth and not ask for help, his right of free speech is taken away, then your rights are diminished when the homeless rights are.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

That is one of the most fucked up posts I have ever read. Thank you for reaffirming my belief that you are retarded.