positive values of atheism....

[PostmodernProphet]

was listening to a television interview this morning and an atheist was calling for movies to be made which demonstrate the "positive values of atheism".....

this caused me to reflect on what these were....

after all, atheism basically centers around one issue....the non-existence of a deity....if an atheist has a positive value, it isn't a positive value that they have because they are an atheist....it would be a positive value they have in addition to being an atheist, right?......

[diuretic]

Not having a religion is a positive value of itself.

Stopwatch on...now....:coffee:

[PostmodernProphet]

how many in the world would share that opinion?.....hardly a good demographic for creating a movie.....:)

[Hagbard Celine]

how many in the world would share that opinion?.....hardly a good demographic for creating a movie.....:)

Well, most religions teach their followers that atheists are somehow evil, sinful people to be looked down upon. Pagans too. With the propagation of that negative stereotype being so rampant, it's no wonder hardly any people would share the opinion that atheists can actually have "values."
The whole idea is ludicrous of course because it takes for granted that atheists keep their religious beliefs front and center the way Christians and others do and that "having religion" somehow automatically makes you a good person, neither of which is true. Most, if not all atheists put religion on the back-burner mostly because they see no use for religion. It just doesn't come into play in their lives and almost never comes up.
I'd be willing to wager that most, close to 95 percent, of all atheists are good, decent, moral people. But you wouldn't know it to sit in on an evangelical sermon. :dunno:

[Hobbit]

Well, most religions teach their followers that atheists are somehow evil, sinful people to be looked down upon. Pagans too. With the propagation of that negative stereotype being so rampant, it's no wonder hardly any people would share the opinion that atheists can actually have "values."

Only the ones who go after Christians and call them stupid idiots for believing in their magical sky fairy, and believe me, they're out there. Just look at the comment threads on fark.com. Most atheists I've seen are just arrogant and self-centered, and I feel more pity for them than contempt.


The whole idea is ludicrous of course because it takes for granted that atheists keep their religious beliefs front and center the way Christians and others do and that "having religion" somehow automatically makes you a good person, neither of which is true. Most, if not all atheists put religion on the back-burner mostly because they see no use for religion. It just doesn't come into play in their lives and almost never comes up.

I'd wager to say that this is incorrect. Most atheists I've met make a habit of harassing religious people, mostly Christians, and taunting anybody who believes anything that can't currently be scientifically quantified. Science is their dogma, and considering leading scientists once believed the Earth was flat, that maggots spontaneously formed on meat, and that alchemy really worked, I think I'll pass on science being the ultimate truth.

Most people I've seen who don't believe in God and don't shove that fact in everyone's faces is agnostic.


I'd be willing to wager that most, close to 95 percent, of all atheists are good, decent, moral people. But you wouldn't know it to sit in on an evangelical sermon. :dunno:

Yet, it's not because they're atheists. It's because they were raised in a society with positive moral values based on religion. Without the idea of a higher being watching them, do you really think primitive man would have ever gone beyond doing whatever they thought they could get away with? As far as evangelicals bashing atheists and calling them horrible people, I'd wager that you've never been to an evangelical sermon. Every time I've heard atheists mentioned, they're talked about in tones of pity, as lost souls who have used science to fill the void left by lack of God. The pastor preaches that they should be loved, befriended, and reached out to, not cast out as some kind of heathens.

I'd also like to know what good atheism ever did for us, and I don't want to hear some intangible like reason or some fallacy like 'scientific advancement,' because there is no link between atheism and scientific advancement (Christian Europe was the most technologically advanced region of the world for centuries, until the largely Christian America surpassed them). I want to hear something scientifically quantifiable that atheism has brought to us.

I'll even open up by telling you a few things Christianity brought us.
1. Christian scientists during the Middle Ages made advancements, despite many setbacks and even accusations of witchcraft, because they wanted to learn more about God's creation and get closer to Him.
2. The majority of the laws this nation was founded on are based in Judeo-Christian tradition.
3. Christian charities, such as the Salvation Army, ease the suffering of millions every day.
4. Christian missionaries volunteer to build homes and hospitals and teach English and advanced technical skills in some of the most destitute parts of the world.
5. Much of the knowledge we have today of the Roman Empire survived because Christian monks believed that the preservation of knowledge was important.

[hjmick]

I am a self professed Agnostic, bordering on Atheism. I rarely if ever attack people of faith and respect their beliefs. I think the reason for this is, I was raised a Catholic. I went to Sunday school, mass, confession, I took communion as well. All of this occurred in my youth, during my formative years you might say. The values taught to me during this time have stayed with me, while I no longer believe or worship, I understand the need and respect the rights of others to do so. All I ever ask is that you not proselytize or preach to me or my children, if you come into my home I ask that you leave your religion on the doorstep. I will respectfully do the same when visiting your abode and family. I will not try to convince you that I am right and you are wrong as long as you pay me the same respect. I am raising my children with the same values instilled in me in my youth, and, when asked about religion, I answer their questions as best I can, if I don't have an answer, I find it or point them in the right direction so that they can find it for themselves. I have explained to my children that, in my opinion, religion is an issue best decided on by the informed individual, if they choose to worship on their own, I will not try to convince them otherwise. Most people of faith, IMO, believe what they believe because that is what their parents believed. If my children find religion, I want it to be because they sought it out after asking questions and finding the answers they seek. An informed decision is all I ask they make.

[Hagbard Celine]

I'll even open up by telling you a few things Christianity brought us.
1. Christian scientists during the Middle Ages made advancements, despite many setbacks and even accusations of witchcraft, because they wanted to learn more about God's creation and get closer to Him.
2. The majority of the laws this nation was founded on are based in Judeo-Christian tradition.
3. Christian charities, such as the Salvation Army, ease the suffering of millions every day.
4. Christian missionaries volunteer to build homes and hospitals and teach English and advanced technical skills in some of the most destitute parts of the world.
5. Much of the knowledge we have today of the Roman Empire survived because Christian monks believed that the preservation of knowledge was important.
For starters, the majority of laws in this nation are based on English Common law/local tradition and before that the prevailing law of the west was Roman Law, which was originally pagan. Since our laws are ridiculously more advanced and wide-reaching than were the "laws" of Judeo-Christian tradition, I'd also like to remind you that the ten commandments seem to be based on Hammurabi's code, which was the law of Babylon, which was also a pagan civilization. I think it's preposterous to credit Christianity as the reason humans believe murder is wrong or that it's wrong to sleep with your neighbor's wife. These types of things are obviously wrong to anybody. For instance, it's against the law to murder people in China, but when has Christianity ever made a significant impact on that society? Answer: never. People have it within themselves to judge what is right and wrong. Religion is nothing more than a form of government created to maintain control over populations that was originally instituted by cavemen who wanted nothing more than someway to control their inhospitable and uncontrollable environment. They sought to appease angry spirits in the Earth to keep their crops and animal stock healthy. It's not an insidious, illuminati conspiracy, it just is what it is.
Do I believe in God? Yes. Do I go to church or profess my allegiance to any particular sect? No. I know the difference between right and wrong. I'm also a product of my environment, which has an already established code of what's right and wrong. But I think even without this established code, humans have within them a moral compass and that is what our laws are based on.
Non-religious charities teach English, build homes, wells, feed people too. Christianity doesn't have a monopoloy on good-will.
I agree that some info about Rome survived through Christian monks, but the majority of information we have about Rome has come through modern archaeology. The Christian version of Rome is one of villianous barbary. The Romans are always made to be the enemy or the villian. In reality, the Romans gave us almost everything good that there is in modern civilization. Art, philosophy, roads, plumbing, stadiums, architecture, the basis for medical science, the basis for modern warfare, Christianity, the list goes on and on.

[Hobbit]

I'm not saying non-Christians have ever done anything. I'm just asking what atheism, specifically, has done that's positive and quantifiable.

Also, English common law was a mesh and wasn't based on Roman law (but was influenced by it). Roman law had cruel executions for just about everything under the sun and little room for forgiveness.

Also, our laws aren't based on English law so much as they were originally a rejection of English law. Our Bill of Rights was written because NONE of those things were part of English law, but were instead what our founding fathers believed to be in-born GOD given rights.

I also seriously doubt the Code of Hammurabi influenced the Ten Commandments, even if you don't believe the Ten Commandments were handed down by God. Hammurabi was in Babylon, which had no contact with the Hebrews until after the Ten Commandments.

[Hagbard Celine]

I'm not saying non-Christians have ever done anything. I'm just asking what atheism, specifically, has done that's positive and quantifiable.

Also, English common law was a mesh and wasn't based on Roman law (but was influenced by it). Roman law had cruel executions for just about everything under the sun and little room for forgiveness.

Also, our laws aren't based on English law so much as they were originally a rejection of English law. Our Bill of Rights was written because NONE of those things were part of English law, but were instead what our founding fathers believed to be in-born GOD given rights.

I also seriously doubt the Code of Hammurabi influenced the Ten Commandments, even if you don't believe the Ten Commandments were handed down by God. Hammurabi was in Babylon, which had no contact with the Hebrews until after the Ten Commandments.
Atheism, by definition can't "do" anything. Atheism is the state of not believing in a deity. What has not believing in the Easter bunny ever done for the world? It's the same question. The better question would be "what have non-believers ever done for the world?" The answer is tons.
Reading cures ignorance: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9108636/common-law
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20030911.html

[glockmail]

I'm not saying non-Christians have ever done anything. I'm just asking what atheism, specifically, has done that's positive and quantifiable.

Also, English common law was a mesh and wasn't based on Roman law (but was influenced by it). Roman law had cruel executions for just about everything under the sun and little room for forgiveness.

Also, our laws aren't based on English law so much as they were originally a rejection of English law. Our Bill of Rights was written because NONE of those things were part of English law, but were instead what our founding fathers believed to be in-born GOD given rights.

I also seriously doubt the Code of Hammurabi influenced the Ten Commandments, even if you don't believe the Ten Commandments were handed down by God. Hammurabi was in Babylon, which had no contact with the Hebrews until after the Ten Commandments.

Well said, and put Hag in his place with his no-brainer argument.

[Hagbard Celine]

Well said, and put Hag in his place with his no-brainer argument.

What are you talking about? Nothing Hobbit wrote is historically accurate nor proves that Atheism is either a negative or a positive force in society. I've never been "put in my place" by any of you troglodytes--that's wishful-thinking to the extreme and pure denial on your part.

This entire thread is a misnomer. Atheism has no canon, therefore it can have no quantifiable set of "values."

[PostmodernProphet]

Well, most religions teach their followers that atheists are somehow evil, sinful people to be looked down upon.

yes, what is your point?.....:)

[PostmodernProphet]

I will not try to convince you that I am right

you stated you were an agnostic....by definition, it means you do not have an opinion.....therefore, why would you try to convince me of anything?......

[Hagbard Celine]

yes, what is your point?.....:)

:)

[hjmick]

you stated you were an agnostic....by definition, it means you do not have an opinion.....therefore, why would you try to convince me of anything?......

Not true, the definition of agnosticism: The view that God's existence is unprovable: the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists.

agnostic: somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists.

Sounds like an opinion to me.

[PostmodernProphet]

I'd also like to remind you that the ten commandments seem to be based on Hammurabi's code

whenever I see that claim I have to chuckle.....obviously, you have never read Hammurabi's code.....

http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/hammurabi.htm

if the Jews based the commandments on Hammurabi's code, they sure did a lousy job of copying......

[PostmodernProphet]

Atheism, by definition can't "do" anything. Atheism is the state of not believing in a deity

which is why I started the thread.....the only unifying point of atheism is the fact they don't believe in a deity.....one negative point.....how then, do you speak of the positive values of atheism?.....it has no other values beyond "there is no god".....


This entire thread is a misnomer. Atheism has no canon, therefore it can have no quantifiable set of "values."

obviously the atheist who wants movies made about the positive values of atheism does not agree with you.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Not true, the definition of agnosticism: The view that God's existence is unprovable: the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists.

agnostic: somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists.

Sounds like an opinion to me.

so, you are going to convince me that you haven't been convinced?....you are going to evangelize your uncertainty?......

[hjmick]

so, you are going to convince me that you haven't been convinced?....you are going to evangelize your uncertainty?......

I am convinced that the existence of God is unprovable. There is no uncertainty in my mind. I would not try to convert anyone, what others believe is no concern of mine. Whether or not they believe as I do is of no consequence.

[glockmail]

I am convinced that the existence of God is unprovable. There is no uncertainty in my mind. I would not try to convert anyone, what others believe is no concern of mine. Whether or not they believe as I do is of no consequence.

I'm convinced that His existence is obvious, and provable within a reasonable doubt.

[Hagbard Celine]

whenever I see that claim I have to chuckle.....obviously, you have never read Hammurabi's code.....

http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/hammurabi.htm

if the Jews based the commandments on Hammurabi's code, they sure did a lousy job of copying......

"obviously, you have never read Hammurabi's code....." Ooh, it's ever so self-righteous inside that cloud of ignorance you live in. Nevertheless, I stand by my statement. If you take the time to read Hammurabi's code and then compare it to Exodus, in which the ten commandments as well as a complete recitation of laws is written, it's impossible to dismiss the similarities, not to mention the whole "written in stone" vibe that both stories give off. When taking into account the fact that Hammurabi's code was established a millenium before Moses came down from Sinai with his tablets and that Babylon's power was felt throughout the whole of the Middle East for almost 1000 years, it's supremely unlikely that all laws of that time, not just those of the Jews, were influenced by the law of Babylon, i.e. Hammurabi's Code. Blam!

[hjmick]

I'm convinced that His existence is obvious, and provable within a reasonable doubt.

And I respect that.

[diuretic]

I'm not saying non-Christians have ever done anything. I'm just asking what atheism, specifically, has done that's positive and quantifiable.

Also, English common law was a mesh and wasn't based on Roman law (but was influenced by it). Roman law had cruel executions for just about everything under the sun and little room for forgiveness.

English common law wasn't even influenced by Roman Law (unfortunately). It grew out of customary Anglo-Saxon law and really started to become influential in the reign of Henry II. Some jurists, notably Bracton, during the Stuart era, rediscovered Roman Law and attempted to be informed by it but if you wan to see the descendant of Roman Law in operation you only have to look at European law.



Also, our laws aren't based on English law so much as they were originally a rejection of English law. Our Bill of Rights was written because NONE of those things were part of English law, but were instead what our founding fathers believed to be in-born GOD given rights.

1215 Magna Carta? 1689 Bill of Rights? I think you might find that your law is firmly based on English common law, but I agree the influence of English common law is historical rather than contemporary.




I also seriously doubt the Code of Hammurabi influenced the Ten Commandments, even if you don't believe the Ten Commandments were handed down by God. Hammurabi was in Babylon, which had no contact with the Hebrews until after the Ten Commandments.

Weren't there Jews in Babylon?

[diuretic]

which is why I started the thread.....the only unifying point of atheism is the fact they don't believe in a deity.....one negative point.....how then, do you speak of the positive values of atheism?.....it has no other values beyond "there is no god".....



obviously the atheist who wants movies made about the positive values of atheism does not agree with you.....

I think it's useful to discuss "humanism" which is a view which accepts there is no deity and seeks to create a valid philosophy that is deity-free.

[LOki]

Here's what one atheist thinks:

"I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something." CLICKY (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557)

[Missileman]

after all, atheism basically centers around one issue....the non-existence of a deity....if an atheist has a positive value, it isn't a positive value that they have because they are an atheist....it would be a positive value they have in addition to being an atheist, right?......

Atheism isn't a religion OR a value set. So yes, your statement is correct.

[Yurt]

Not having a religion is a positive value of itself.

Stopwatch on...now....:coffee:

what is the value?

stopwatch on....

[Hagbard Celine]

what is the value?

stopwatch on....

Ooh, wow. I like how you turned it around on him like that. Cle-ver.

[diuretic]

what is the value?

stopwatch on....

I'm thinking quickly......(difficult for me lol).

Clarity of thought. Self-reliance. Development of a real world view. Understanding of the real human situation. Authenticity.

Did I beat the clock? :coffee:

[diuretic]

Ooh, wow. I like how you turned it around on him like that. Cle-ver.

It was good - I like it. Nice cross-x technique there Yurt :D

[Hobbit]

The rest is rather fascinating. Thank you. As for this:


Weren't there Jews in Babylon?

That wasn't until later. Here's the time line.

Joseph and his 12 brothers go to Egypt (where only the Minoans were considered civilized outside Egypt, so little, if any, Babylonian influence).

Hebrew race prospers in Egypt.

Hebrew race enslaved.

Hebrew race liberated.

Ten Commandments handed down.

Hebrew race wanders 40 years in the desert.

Hebrew race conquers Canaan.

Period of judges. Many invading armies come into Israel, but none are Babylonian and all are eventually repelled.

Period of kings. Saul, David, and Solomon rule Israel and no enemy army takes full control of the country.

Divided Kingdom. Israel and Judea become 2 separate kingdoms and are both eventually conquered by invading armies with many being taken into exile. Babylon was one such conqueror.

See, the Ten Commandments came down long before the Hebrew race was even divided, much less taken into exile.

[PostmodernProphet]

If you take the time to read Hammurabi's code and then compare it to Exodus, in which the ten commandments as well as a complete recitation of laws is written, it's impossible to dismiss the similarities

dude.....that's ridiculous....I even provided you with a link so you could read the code before you answered.....

even the basic approach is different.....the 10 Commandments are prohibitions.....Hammurabi's code is a listing of penalties.....there are 10 commandments, there are 282 provisions in the Code....

there is no clear correlation between any one of the ten and any of the 282.....
for example 277. If any one hire a ship of sixty gur, he shall pay one-sixth of a shekel in money as its hire per day.....perhaps you see that as a parallel to honoring the 7th day?

[Yurt]

Ooh, wow. I like how you turned it around on him like that. Cle-ver.

and all you could do was point out my greatness.....good job boyo!

[Yurt]

I'm thinking quickly......(difficult for me lol).

Clarity of thought. Self-reliance. Development of a real world view. Understanding of the real human situation. Authenticity.

Did I beat the clock? :coffee:

LOL. No. What is "self reliance" Are we monkeys? Is your grandpopah a monkey?

Undestanding of the "real" human situation. That kills me. So YOU have the answer, right? The authentic answer. Your "real" human situation is the answer that we knuckleheads have been looking for all these decades, centuries............

Give us the truth, please.

[PostmodernProphet]

that Babylon's power was felt throughout the whole of the Middle East for almost 1000 years

actually, you overestimate Babylon.....Hammurabi lived around 1750 BC......the Babylon of Hanging Gardens fame wasn't built until 1100 BC by Nebuchadnezzar.....in between Babylon had been sacked by the Assyrians in 1240 BC, the Hittites in 1600 BC and the Elamites in 1750 BC

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Mesopotamia/timeline_of_babylonia.htm

so, while Hammurabi lived about 150 years before Moses, at the time Moses was born (and studied in Egyptian not Babylonian schools) the "empire" of Babylon didn't even exist yet......

[manu1959]

here are some that have done things and had a positive influence

http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Main_Page

Douglas Adams, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Woody Allen, Lance Armstrong, Darren Aronofsky, Isaac Asimov, Dave Barry, Ingmar Bergman, Lewis Black, Richard Branson, Berkeley Breathed, Warren Buffett, George Carlin, John Carmack, Adam Carolla, John Carpenter, Asia Carrera, Fidel Castro, Dick Cavett, Noam Chomsky, Billy Connolly, Francis Crick, David Cronenberg, David Cross, Alan Cumming, Rodney Dangerfield, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, David Deutsch, Ani DiFranco, Micky Dolenz, Harlan Ellison, Brian Eno, Richard Feynman, Harvey Fierstein, Larry Flynt, Dave Foley, Jodie Foster, Janeane Garofalo, Bill Gates, Bob Geldof, Ricky Gervais, Ira Glass, James Gleick, Robert Heinlein, Nat Hentoff, Katharine Hepburn, Christopher Hitchens, Eddie Izzard, Penn Jillette, Billy Joel, Angelina Jolie, Wendy Kaminer, Diane Keaton, Ken Keeler, Neil Kinnock, Michael Kinsley, Richard Leakey, Bruce Lee, Tom Lehrer, Tom Leykis, James Lipton, H.P. Lovecraft, John Malkovich, Barry Manilow, Todd McFarlane, Sir Ian McKellen, Arthur Miller, Frank Miller, Marvin Minsky, Julianne Moore, Desmond Morris, Randy Newman, Mike Nichols, Jack Nicholson, Gary Numan, Bob Odenkirk, Patton Oswalt, Camille Paglia, Steven Pinker, Paula Poundstone, Terry Pratchett, James Randi, Ron Reagan Jr., Keanu Reeves, Rick Reynolds, Gene Roddenberry, Joe Rogan, Henry Rollins, Andy Rooney, Salman Rushdie, Bob Simon, Steven Soderbergh, Annika Sorenstam, George Soros, Richard Stallman, Bruce Sterling, Howard Stern, J. Michael Straczynski, Julia Sweeney, Matthew Sweet, Teller, Studs Terkel, Tom Tomorrow, Linus Torvalds, Eddie Vedder, Paul Verhoeven, Gore Vidal, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Sarah Vowell, James Watson, Steven Weinberg, Joss Whedon, Ted Williams, Steve Wozniak, HUNDREDS MORE... edit

[diuretic]

LOL. No. What is "self reliance" Are we monkeys? Is your grandpopah a monkey?

Self-reliance means not needing to rely on the crutch of superstition.




Undestanding of the "real" human situation. That kills me. So YOU have the answer, right? The authentic answer. Your "real" human situation is the answer that we knuckleheads have been looking for all these decades, centuries............

Give us the truth, please.

That doesn't make sense. I didn't make any of those claims.

[TheSage]

Christianity doesn't have a monopoloy on good-will.


And athiests don't even stock the item.

[diuretic]

And athiests don't even stock the item.

That's probably close to the most stupid attempt at a retort I've read here. And I've read some dumb shit :lol:

[TheSage]

That's probably close to the most stupid attempt at a retort I've read here. And I've read some dumb shit :lol:

Actually it's quite funny, retarded old cocksnot.

[PostmodernProphet]

here are some that have done things and had a positive influence

http://www.celebatheists.com/?title=Main_Page

Douglas Adams, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Woody Allen, Lance Armstrong, Darren Aronofsky, Isaac Asimov, Dave Barry, Ingmar Bergman, Lewis Black, Richard Branson, Berkeley Breathed, Warren Buffett, George Carlin, John Carmack, Adam Carolla, John Carpenter, ............ James Watson, Steven Weinberg, Joss Whedon, Ted Williams, Steve Wozniak, HUNDREDS MORE... edit

what a silly list......is Woody Allen a better playwriter because he is atheist?......does Lance Armstrong pedal faster because he is an atheist?.....are the businessmen more successful, the actors more talented, the etc. more etc-erized?

[diuretic]

Actually it's quite funny, retarded old cocksnot.

Not funny to anyone normal old twat.

[diuretic]

what a silly list......is Woody Allen a better playwriter because he is atheist?......does Lance Armstrong pedal faster because he is an atheist?.....are the businessmen more successful, the actors more talented, the etc. more etc-erized?

I think the argument is that atheists can have a positive influence. Woody Allen makes people think, makes them laugh - that's positive.

[PostmodernProphet]

I think the argument is that atheists can have a positive influence. Woody Allen makes people think, makes them laugh - that's positive.

can you honestly say that any one of those people had their positive influence BECAUSE of their atheism?....if not, the list is irrelevant.....

for example....I knew a guy (he has passed on now) who smuggled Jews out of the Netherlands during WW2.....he chose to do it because of his religious beliefs.....I know a guy who runs an orphanage in Lesotho, Africa for HIV kids....he does it because of his religious beliefs......I know another guy who runs an organization that provides work experiences for adults with handicaps.....he does it because of his religious beliefs.....

what action does the atheist belief system lead people to?.....denying the existence of a god, obviously....an atheist may be led to do something else, but he will be led there by some other belief he holds....not by his atheism......

[Said1]

I think atheism is more like a point of view than a ' belief system'. In fact, this entire debate is rather stupid. Reminds me of the elitist Catholics.

[PostmodernProphet]

In fact, this entire debate is rather stupid.

oh, I don't know, we have managed to make it three pages with less than normal insults and acrimony.....

[Missileman]

can you honestly say that any one of those people had their positive influence BECAUSE of their atheism?....if not, the list is irrelevant.....

for example....I knew a guy (he has passed on now) who smuggled Jews out of the Netherlands during WW2.....he chose to do it because of his religious beliefs.....I know a guy who runs an orphanage in Lesotho, Africa for HIV kids....he does it because of his religious beliefs......I know another guy who runs an organization that provides work experiences for adults with handicaps.....he does it because of his religious beliefs.....

what action does the atheist belief system lead people to?.....denying the existence of a god, obviously....an atheist may be led to do something else, but he will be led there by some other belief he holds....not by his atheism......

Atheism is not a belief system anymore than not believing in Santa is. You have no idea whatsoever what part their atheism played in the lives of those people, so any opinion you offer that it couldn't have had a positive influence is pure conjecture.

I know I can come up with a substantial list of negative acts that have been committed BECAUSE of religious beliefs. Can you name any specific negative acts that were the result of someone's atheism?

As has been suggested, the premise of this thread appears to have been mis-guided.

[manu1959]

can you honestly say that any one of those people had their positive influence BECAUSE of their atheism?....if not, the list is irrelevant.....

for example....I knew a guy (he has passed on now) who smuggled Jews out of the Netherlands during WW2.....he chose to do it because of his religious beliefs.....I know a guy who runs an orphanage in Lesotho, Africa for HIV kids....he does it because of his religious beliefs......I know another guy who runs an organization that provides work experiences for adults with handicaps.....he does it because of his religious beliefs.....

what action does the atheist belief system lead people to?.....denying the existence of a god, obviously....an atheist may be led to do something else, but he will be led there by some other belief he holds....not by his atheism......

well they are having a positive influnce and it aint because of a religious belief it is becuase they want to.....

[manu1959]

I think atheism is more like a point of view than a ' belief system'. In fact, this entire debate is rather stupid. Reminds me of the elitist Catholics.

elitist catholic is redundant....

[manu1959]

what a silly list......is Woody Allen a better playwriter because he is atheist?......does Lance Armstrong pedal faster because he is an atheist?.....are the businessmen more successful, the actors more talented, the etc. more etc-erized?

you said atheists couldn't have a positive infulence ...it would appear you are wrong....

[Said1]

elitist catholic is redundant....

Redundant to what?

What's redundant is professing superiority over a 'non-faith'.

[diuretic]

can you honestly say that any one of those people had their positive influence BECAUSE of their atheism?....if not, the list is irrelevant.....

for example....I knew a guy (he has passed on now) who smuggled Jews out of the Netherlands during WW2.....he chose to do it because of his religious beliefs.....I know a guy who runs an orphanage in Lesotho, Africa for HIV kids....he does it because of his religious beliefs......I know another guy who runs an organization that provides work experiences for adults with handicaps.....he does it because of his religious beliefs.....

what action does the atheist belief system lead people to?.....denying the existence of a god, obviously....an atheist may be led to do something else, but he will be led there by some other belief he holds....not by his atheism......

In Thailand, which is predominantly Buddhist (I know you know but I have to make the point) people perform good deeds for "merit". It's like there's a big scorecard and they rack up the points for doing good deeds. Would you consider that a selfish motive?

If someone acts ONLY out of their religious beliefs does that make their action morally superior to someone who has no religious beliefs but acts of of a sense of altruism?

[diuretic]

I think atheism is more like a point of view than a ' belief system'. In fact, this entire debate is rather stupid. Reminds me of the elitist Catholics.

Don't knock the Catholics, at least they have an interesting theology :D

[PostmodernProphet]

you said atheists couldn't have a positive infulence ...it would appear you are wrong....

no, you aren't paying attention.....I said their atheism did not contribute to their ability to make a positive influence or to their talents, whatever they might be

[Said1]

Don't knock the Catholics, at least they have an interesting theology :D

Oh sure. If you like brooms and rugs.

[PostmodernProphet]

If someone acts ONLY out of their religious beliefs does that make their action morally superior to someone who has no religious beliefs but acts of of a sense of altruism?

/shrugs....no.....and an atheist may also have a sense of altruism.....but altruism is not a characteristic of atheism.....

[diuretic]

no, you aren't paying attention.....I said their atheism did not contribute to their ability to make a positive influence or to their talents, whatever they might be

Perhaps their abilities influenced them to become atheist?

[diuretic]

Oh sure. If you like brooms and rugs.

I'm sorry that one flew right past me (there we are, free kicks for all!)

[diuretic]

/shrugs....no.....and an atheist may also have a sense of altruism.....but altruism is not a characteristic of atheism.....

Quite right, it's not. Actually to tell you the truth, I don't think altruism exists anyway.

[PostmodernProphet]

Perhaps their abilities influenced them to become atheist?

/shrugs.....and perhaps they were only able to demonstrate a portion of their God given talent because of their atheism.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Quite right, it's not. Actually to tell you the truth, I don't think altruism exists anyway.

how about the guy who throws himself on a grenade to save his buddies?