Free Speech Vs. Censorship

[jimnyc]

Let me start off by stating that if this thread takes a turn for the worse, it will be locked down very quickly. No names involved, just discussing the issue at hand.

Lately I've been receiving a lot of complaints and reported posts about users flaming and provoking other users. Staff members are admittedly having trouble in deciding what is the best way to handle such issues, based on the feeling of the board.

Half of the board complains about the activities of others, the flaming, provoking... When we lock said threads, delete posts, remove users from threads... We then get heat about freedom of speech and that many feel they want a board where the animosity exists and users can continue to debate harshly.

What is more important to the board? Do you guys want us to allow debates to continue in a more aggressive fashion? When threads go sour over arguments, should we split the thread in 2, leaving the debate where it's at and move the new thread to the cage? Should we carry a heavy stick and put a full stop to the aggressive behavior and remove users from threads, lock threads and ban users who continue in such fashion?

This isn't a thread to complain about other members, or to complain about how staff currently handles issues - this is simply an opportunity to express how YOU would like to see the board progress going forth.

[manu1959]

i think that people should be able to say whatever they want and then they should also have to deal with the results of those actions.....

free speech is a two way street.......

remember banning someone is a form of free speech.....

[April15]

Like a guest in someones house you can be asked to leave if your actions are not acceptable to the host. Enforce the TOS and don't worry about those asked to leave. They will live.

[LiberalNation]

Free speech all the way. Can't stand the heat get outa the fire.

[Dilloduck]

Like a guest in someones house you can be asked to leave if your actions are not acceptable to the host. Enforce the TOS and don't worry about those asked to leave. They will live.

I suggest that you either let everyone yap all they want or make a huge list of detailed rules that covers everything that the complainers bitch about. Hoping that people will operate on "common sense" or act "reasonable" is expecting too much.

[April15]

I suggest that you either let everyone yap all they want or make a huge list of detailed rules that covers everything that the complainers bitch about. Hoping that people will operate on "common sense" or act "reasonable" is expecting too much.What would a person have to complain about? Hoping that people will operate on "common sense" or act "reasonable" is most definitely expecting too much.

[Yurt]

If speech is free, why does it cost this nation so much pain every time pelosi or murtha speak?

[82Marine89]

Free speech or responsible speech? This is a private board, the 1st Amendment only applies to government censorship.

[Kathianne]

Let me start off by stating that if this thread takes a turn for the worse, it will be locked down very quickly. No names involved, just discussing the issue at hand.

Lately I've been receiving a lot of complaints and reported posts about users flaming and provoking other users. Staff members are admittedly having trouble in deciding what is the best way to handle such issues, based on the feeling of the board.

Half of the board complains about the activities of others, the flaming, provoking... When we lock said threads, delete posts, remove users from threads... We then get heat about freedom of speech and that many feel they want a board where the animosity exists and users can continue to debate harshly.

What is more important to the board? Do you guys want us to allow debates to continue in a more aggressive fashion? When threads go sour over arguments, should we split the thread in 2, leaving the debate where it's at and move the new thread to the cage? Should we carry a heavy stick and put a full stop to the aggressive behavior and remove users from threads, lock threads and ban users who continue in such fashion?

This isn't a thread to complain about other members, or to complain about how staff currently handles issues - this is simply an opportunity to express how YOU would like to see the board progress going forth.
Jim, you pay the bills and it's your board. To my way of thinking, that is the bottom line. If you are asking my opinion on what is 'right', well I'd argue for civility and some measure of humanity. I probably am considered 'the Nazi' by many here, for the reason I think that rules should be made and enforced. That doesn't mean that 'the rules' can't say that only a post with certain words will be deleted or the poster banned, they could. If that is the extent of the rules, then that is what the mods should do.

On the other hand, if the rules are 'While in heated debates, we understand that it can become emotional and sometimes we let that get the better of us. The board will tolerate such outbursts to a degree. So long as it doesn't get out of hand, and become a habitual occurrence, it will be tolerated.' ...well then that should pertain to all, not just those here for a short time or that go against the majority at the site.

I think it's been a difficult time lately, but I'm glad for one, that it's being addressed. Thank you.

[LiberalNation]

I don't like my pm box turning green when I have a new pm. Not a free speech issue but annoying just the same.

[Kathianne]

I don't like my pm box turning green when I have a new pm. Not a free speech issue but annoying just the same.

I like it, very much so. I'm bad at checking.

[CockySOB]

I'd simply remind users that if they dislike what another poster writes on a regular basis, they are free to put that user on the "Ignore" list in the "User CP" at the top, left corner of their screen. This works to hide the user's posts, avatar and signatures from being displayed on the offended person's browser. The only way you would see an "ignored" user's posts, avatar or signature lines is by manually click the link at the top, right corner of where the blocked post would be which says "show post."

Freedom of speech also means freedom to ignore the speaker if you so choose. Allow the users to say their piece (within the legal limits of course) and allow users to ignore those who routinely piss them off.

BTW, if it happens to be an image the user has placed in their avatar or signature areas, you can probably use an image blocker add-on to your browser to further remove the offending image. This works exceptionally well also.

[Kathianne]

I'd simply remind users that if they dislike what another poster writes on a regular basis, they are free to put that user on the "Ignore" list in the "User CP" at the top, left corner of their screen. This works to hide the user's posts, avatar and signatures from being displayed on the offended person's browser. The only way you would see an "ignored" user's posts, avatar or signature lines is by manually click the link at the top, right corner of where the blocked post would be which says "show post."

Freedom of speech also means freedom to ignore the speaker if you so choose. Allow the users to say their piece (within the legal limits of course) and allow users to ignore those who routinely piss them off.

BTW, if it happens to be an image the user has placed in their avatar or signature areas, you can probably use an image blocker add-on to your browser to further remove the offending image. This works exceptionally well also.
Some posters feel compelled to post on all or many forums, making it not just distracting, but more than annoying to figure out when to read the 'ignored' and when not to. I'll agree, that the usual best choice is to keep it hidden, but when? Thus, even the 'ignored' tend to be read and one is 'drawn in' to tell them what idiots they are, in the 'readers' opinion...

[avatar4321]

Continue enforcing the rules. If people want the right to free speech, they need to keep the responsibility that goes with it. Civility isn't difficult. One doesn't have to agree to be nice.

[OCA]

Let me start off by stating that if this thread takes a turn for the worse, it will be locked down very quickly. No names involved, just discussing the issue at hand.

Lately I've been receiving a lot of complaints and reported posts about users flaming and provoking other users. Staff members are admittedly having trouble in deciding what is the best way to handle such issues, based on the feeling of the board.

Half of the board complains about the activities of others, the flaming, provoking... When we lock said threads, delete posts, remove users from threads... We then get heat about freedom of speech and that many feel they want a board where the animosity exists and users can continue to debate harshly.

What is more important to the board? Do you guys want us to allow debates to continue in a more aggressive fashion? When threads go sour over arguments, should we split the thread in 2, leaving the debate where it's at and move the new thread to the cage? Should we carry a heavy stick and put a full stop to the aggressive behavior and remove users from threads, lock threads and ban users who continue in such fashion?

This isn't a thread to complain about other members, or to complain about how staff currently handles issues - this is simply an opportunity to express how YOU would like to see the board progress going forth.

Do you really want me to weigh in on this shit?

I think people who pm staff and bitch about being "offended" by a post or poster ought to climb down out of their saddle on the high horse they are riding, don't like what a poster says or whom he says it to? Don't friggin read it, simple as that.

And lets face it, this is about me, or at least i'd be willing to wager that its mostly about me but i'll give y'all something you can bank on......................I ain't changing the tone, oh the tactics will change because current tactics find me being censored vigorously by the gestapo here, but the tone and my well known goal will stay exactly the same no matter who finds it offensive.

Wanna know what I find offensive? When someone fires a cheap shot at me nary a voice in the wilderness is heard............when I fire off on some bum the complaints are heard loud and clear, interesting, but then again I prefer me against the world.

Anyway Jimmy to make a long story short think USMB circa fall 2004, those were the glory days.

[Kathianne]

Do you really want me to weigh in on this shit?

I think people who pm staff and bitch about being "offended" by a post or poster ought to climb down out of their saddle on the high horse they are riding, don't like what a poster says or whom he says it to? Don't friggin read it, simple as that.

And lets face it, this is about me, or at least i'd be willing to wager that its mostly about me but i'll give y'all something you can bank on......................I ain't changing the tone, oh the tactics will change because current tactics find me being censored vigorously by the gestapo here, but the tone and my well known goal will stay exactly the same no matter who finds it offensive.

Wanna know what I find offensive? When someone fires a cheap shot at me nary a voice in the wilderness is heard............when I fire off on some bum the complaints are heard loud and clear, interesting, but then again I prefer me against the world.

Anyway Jimmy to make a long story short think USMB circa fall 2004, those were the glory days.
I agree with the 'glory days' OCA. In those days many of us could write on subjects and responses that would generate reams of responses. When was the last time you did?

If we were to pull archives, when then did you pull the crap you've slimed so many with in the past year? I'm not calling YOU out, it's all of us. I'm as guilty as anyone, but I'll admit it's not done a thing for discourse or the general political/social order. I stopped about 4 months ago, as for making things worse. I haven't a clue if I've made things better.

[Yurt]

Do you really want me to weigh in on this shit?

I think people who pm staff and bitch about being "offended" by a post or poster ought to climb down out of their saddle on the high horse they are riding, don't like what a poster says or whom he says it to? Don't friggin read it, simple as that.

And lets face it, this is about me, or at least i'd be willing to wager that its mostly about me but i'll give y'all something you can bank on......................I ain't changing the tone, oh the tactics will change because current tactics find me being censored vigorously by the gestapo here, but the tone and my well known goal will stay exactly the same no matter who finds it offensive.

Wanna know what I find offensive? When someone fires a cheap shot at me nary a voice in the wilderness is heard............when I fire off on some bum the complaints are heard loud and clear, interesting, but then again I prefer me against the world.

Anyway Jimmy to make a long story short think USMB circa fall 2004, those were the glory days.


I thought I heard it, but wasn't sure...


I agree with Avi that civility is good, however, civility can often be an ambigious word. What is civil to me is not civil to you. Sure, we could go by a national standard, but I don't think one exists. We are all from local "standards" and have different approaches to things. I don't think OCA is being singled out, this is issue covers quite a few people.

Unless someone is yelling fire in on the "crowded board" let it be. If it is just plain insults that are beyond common decency, then fine. But hey, it is fun to tease the other person, that should not be impinged upon.

Sure this is private board as Marine pointed out and we don't have government action, but I think Jim has opened the door because he wants his forum to be as open as possible. It is and shall remain so.

F-R-E-E-D-O-M

:)

[OCA]

I agree with the 'glory days' OCA. In those days many of us could write on subjects and responses that would generate reams of responses. When was the last time you did?

If we were to pull archives, when then did you pull the crap you've slimed so many with in the past year? I'm not calling YOU out, it's all of us. I'm as guilty as anyone, but I'll admit it's not done a thing for discourse or the general political/social order. I stopped about 4 months ago, as for making things worse. I haven't a clue if I've made things better.

Busy putting out fires, my business lately has been making sure that little things that our board fools say don't slip by unnoticed............business has been good, there is a "help wanted" sign in the window currently.

Ok seriously, back in the day things were fresh, arguments and points of view on many subjects were new, now on many subjects everytime someone new comes by it seems the same old point of views and the same old arguments get rehashed only your debating opponent changes. Take the gay marriage subject, i've argued that so many times that everytime a proponent of gay marriage comes on I can tell you what they will say before they say it, its kind of reached a stagnation point. Now throw in some of the complete kooks we have(both sides of the aisle) and its enough to make 1 go batty.

I like Jimmy's boards, always have, you gotta remember that I used to average like 23 posts a day on USMB so its not like I dislike the place, I dislike certain members and I dislike rehashing the same thing daily. Then again I disliked many members on USMB back in the day(think Big D) but even then the tone was different, things never went personal too often...........now things got personal against me one too many times and now i'm getting personal, its this revenge thing thats in my DNA.

[Kathianne]

Busy putting out fires, my business lately has been making sure that little things that our board fools say don't slip by unnoticed............business has been good, there is a "help wanted" sign in the window currently.

Ok seriously, back in the day things were fresh, arguments and points of view on many subjects were new, now on many subjects everytime someone new comes by it seems the same old point of views and the same old arguments get rehashed only your debating opponent changes. Take the gay marriage subject, i've argued that so many times that everytime a proponent of gay marriage comes on I can tell you what they will say before they say it, its kind of reached a stagnation point. Now throw in some of the complete kooks we have(both sides of the aisle) and its enough to make 1 go batty.

I like Jimmy's boards, always have, you gotta remember that I used to average like 23 posts a day on USMB so its not like I dislike the place, I dislike certain members and I dislike rehashing the same thing daily. Then again I disliked many members on USMB back in the day(think Big D) but even then the tone was different, things never went personal too often...........now things got personal against me one too many times and now i'm getting personal, its this revenge thing thats in my DNA.

Excuse me for taking it 'personal,' but seems that you and Big D did just that if memory serves correctly.

Let's let that one go. 'Back then' you would stand up for the rights of others. Including those that had been shafted in the past. We could site blacks, Jews, Hispanics, wouldn't matter. You argued for the underdog, eloquently if I remember correctly. What's happened?

[OCA]

Excuse me for taking it 'personal,' but seems that you and Big D did just that if memory serves correctly.

Let's let that one go. 'Back then' you would stand up for the rights of others. Including those that had been shafted in the past. We could site blacks, Jews, Hispanics, wouldn't matter. You argued for the underdog, eloquently if I remember correctly. What's happened?

I'm not gonna continue to argue for the rights of the underdog if the underdog keeps digging up your flowerbed.

Nah, never got personal and by personal I mean attacking people other than the poster himself, Big D however did refer to my wife using several derogatory terms and I did insinuate that the daughter of his friend whom he claimed was raped by a gang of Hispanics had in reality probably had a Hispanic boyfriend, the father had found out she was preggers and made up a story about her being raped, thats it other than I said he was an idiot..........a thousand times and in a thousand ways.

[gabosaurus]

First of all, message boards are NOT democracies. Message boards are governed under the rules of those who own them. And thus pay for their existence.
A past board that I visited had one main rule: "If you don't like how this board is run, go start your own board. You can pay the bills, find another posters to make it worthwhile and hold the whole thing together."

I have no qualm against rules. My bitch is (and always has been) that rules should apply to all. You can't establish rules, and then state that some people don't have to follow them. Which is occasionally the case here.

Jim, don't take board business too seriously. The only complaints that you really need to listen to and consider are mine. :)

[Pale Rider]

There are those here that love to make shitty little smart ass personal comments to people without provocation. Jimmy, D, Abbey, you people know who they are. The ones that do it know who they are. If the rules are going to be thrown out the window and the little smart asses are allowed to make their personal attacks without retribution, I can tell you what will happen. Pale Rider will be banned again. It appears I'm the meanest mother fucker on this board, and my kind of free speach isn't tolerated. So what's it going to be? Let anything go, or have limits?

[hjmick]

Hmmm...Free Speech Vs. Censorship...

Interesting...

I for one am a free speech guy, but then I tend to choose my words carefully and thoughtfully and don't usually attack fellow posters, certainly not in the vile fashion I have seen on many a board. I find no word offensive. On the rare occasion someone has launched a personal attack in my direction (hasn't happened here), I figure that I have won the debate and move on. In my book, personal attacks are the last refuge of a weak mind and an even weaker argument.

I don't believe any words should be censored, ever.

But I don't believe that this thread is really about "Free Speech vs. Censorship." At least, I don't believe that these are the true choices.

The discussion should be about civility or the lack thereof. The anonymity of the Internet and message boards lends itself to a general breakdown of civility and respect. People feel free to indulge in behavior that would be unacceptable, or certainly frowned upon, in real world interaction. The societal norm is ignored on message boards and things can get ugly.

When did respect for others and dissenting opinions become a bad thing?

There are many people who profess their faith on every board I have ever joined, yet they are just as guilty of ignoring religious teachings as any Atheist. They are frequently last to turn the other cheek and often disregard the Golden Rule. It seems that no one is immune to the temptations of the Internet.

Perhaps before a body clicks the Submit Reply button, they should ask themselves if they would want their mother to read what they just typed. Would they want their daughter to read it?

But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Jim, this is your board. It is your decision as to what you want it to be.

[diuretic]

I give as good as I get and then I probably give more than I should when I get it.

Wait a minute, I need to read that again.

Okay, it makes sense if you read it eight times.

Let it rip Jim, if I get into a long-running pissing match with someone (long means a few weeks, I don't give a rat's arse about a minor squabble over a day or two) then I will sort it out with them in PMs, hopefully.

But if the forum is sanitised it will take the fun out of it.

NOW WILL YOU RIGHT WING NUTTERS STOP GIVING ME THE SHITS!

Just kidding :coffee:

[Pale Rider]

I give as good as I get and then I probably give more than I should when I get it.

Wait a minute, I need to read that again.

Okay, it makes sense if you read it eight times.

Let it rip Jim, if I get into a long-running pissing match with someone (long means a few weeks, I don't give a rat's arse about a minor squabble over a day or two) then I will sort it out with them in PMs, hopefully.

But if the forum is sanitised it will take the fun out of it.

NOW WILL YOU RIGHT WING NUTTERS STOP GIVING ME THE SHITS!

Just kidding :coffee:

If the shit is let to fly without any restrictions, this board will erupt into total anarchy. Anyone visiting who's considering joining will take one look at it and leave.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. In, *The Great CWN's* point of view.
2. If something doesn't happen to these *Vultures* who just come here to do personal attacks on others.
3. Those who could do something and do nothing are facilitating their bad behavior.
4. To stand by and watch some member to do uncalled for and ridicules attacks on another member, is in a way agreeing with said attacks.
5. I equate these types to school yard bullies, who were in reality the goof balls of school.
6. They were some what troll like, and were stupid, nearly always chubby, with curly hair, that looked like some one had cut their hair by putting a bowl on his head.
7. As they grow up they tend to lean towards automobile repairing as a business, and tell themselves how they are SUCH, great mechanics, better than anyone else, which in fact they still screw up jobs from time to time, but over look it.
8. I think rules on personal attacks should be established, and those *Vultures* who don't abide by them, should be shown the door after lets say, 10 times.
9. Or do a split of the thread, casting the attack into the, *Steel Cage*, where only members can read that crap.
10. Limits on *The Vultures* are a good thing, otherwise, all you promote is the adult, *Bully*:pee::slap:

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[jackass]

Ok..here is my thought on the subject. I agree with all of those who said it doesnt have anything to do with censorship but with civility. Some of you miss the point that it is Jims board and what he wants (I think) is to have more members. When prospective members come and see people throwing insults and crude remarks around without fear of punishment, well I think it draws the wrong crowd.
Jim I think that you and the moderators should carry a big stick in all forums BUT the Steel Cage. I think that if a thread gets off track, split the thread and let it all fly in there. Obviously some people cant control themselves and need a place to prove their worth. Let that be the place.
Simple fact is...this is JIMS board. If you dont like it...F You! Stop your whining and go find another board.

[dan]

Jim I think that you and the moderators should carry a big stick in all forums BUT the Steel Cage. I think that if a thread gets off track, split the thread and let it all fly in there. Obviously some people cant control themselves and need a place to prove their worth. Let that be the place.

Also, I'm not sure if it already is or not, but maybe make the Steel Cage a forum that only registered users can see, because I can definitely see that turning away potential members, and really, 90% of the stuff going on in the Steel Cage, a newbie wouldn't know what it was about anyway.

[jimnyc]

Also, I'm not sure if it already is or not, but maybe make the Steel Cage a forum that only registered users can see, because I can definitely see that turning away potential members, and really, 90% of the stuff going on in the Steel Cage, a newbie wouldn't know what it was about anyway.

The Steel Cage has recently been made accessible only to members that are logged in.

[dan]

The Steel Cage has recently been made accessible only to members that are logged in.

OK. I'd say that should help. Honestly, I think a lot of people may check out that forum first out of morbid curiosity ("let's see, I can read about movies, or I can see the stuff that's too out-of-control for the rest of the board!"), and while it serves its purpose, I don't think the Steel Cage represents the board that well.

[LiberalNation]

Simple fact is...this is JIMS board. If you dont like it...F You! Stop your whining and go find another board.
No, continue whining until things change in your favor or you are no longer able to.

[jackass]

No, continue whining until things change in your favor or you are no longer able to.

THAT is why MOST here dont like you....

[mrg666]

when debates get heated some sparks will fly , however for this to spread into seperate threads that directly attack / provoke folk ,as a sort of vendetta , are bad , especially when it's never ending.
(the perpetual personal attacks , that go beyond a one off slanging match and are mostly one way)
no one wants to see anything censored , and some of the debates that get heated are entertaining .
i'd say the rules are there and common sense by all should suffice .
thats my tuppence for what it's worth .

[jackass]

i'd say the rules are there and common sense by all should suffice .
thats my tuppence for what it's worth .

Unfortunetly SOME dont have any common sense!

[mrg666]

Unfortunetly SOME dont have any common sense!

and so when rules are broken !.

[Abbey Marie]

As a person who lobbied for the Steel Cage to be readable by members only, I am of course happy that it is now restricted. But keep in mind that it takes little effort for someone to join, and they will soon see that forum in all its glory anyway. If the Cage is a turn-off to joining, it will also be a turn-off to staying around.

Just a thought.

And I agree with those who have framed the issue as one of civility, as opposed to one of free speech.

[JohnDoe]

Personally, I think we should let the s__t fly, free speech all the way, no holds barred.

If it gets out of hand then one can leave the thread, it has been said already, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire.

At the same time it would be nice if people would keep their vulgarity in check, but I am no one to stop it or complain about it....unless I complain to the poster of it, right there in the thread.... on previous boards I have done such to MFM when he has gotten out of check and have been able to reign him in a wee bit at times....