The age old question and the answer

[truthmatters]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/?GT1=10533

This study illustrates why abortion needs to be legal world wide.

[theHawk]

Hey, lets legalize rape and murder too, because it happens when its illegal anyway.




:poke:

[BoogyMan]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/?GT1=10533

This study illustrates why abortion needs to be legal world wide.

Abortion is an abomination. How can man take the most innocent and helpless among him and mutilate it for his own ends? Abortion is little more than a sign of the decline of man and shows that there is an egregious lack of natural affection.

[darin]

TM's conclusion is a logical fallacy.

[truthmatters]

Your own country has desided it should stay safe and legal. There are two people at risk in an abortion. Do you prefer they both die?

There are logical reasons to keep abortion legal. Making abortion Illegal kills more people.

[BoogyMan]

Your own country has desided it should stay safe and legal. There are two people at risk in an abortion. Do you prefer they both die?

There are logical reasons to keep abortion legal. Making abortion Illegal kills more people.

The statistics are NOT on your side here TM. The numbers of births where the mother is in danger are so slim as to negate the point of your line of argumentation.

Every one of you abortion supporters should be required to go watch one happen.

Abortion kills, every day, and it is a shame to the country.

[darin]

Making abortion Illegal kills more people.

kills more people than what? Meteors? Snakes?

[Immanuel]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/?GT1=10533

This study illustrates why abortion needs to be legal world wide.

Can you prove to me that the number of abortions will go down by keeping it legal? If so, you have my support but like your own report states, it doesn't matter whether a country makes it legal or not the numbers won't change.

So, tell me why then we should "legally kill human beings". Why should we make it legal?

This report was, as I suspected produced by the Guttmacher Institute. Remember it is their job to make abortion pretty.

Immie

[Sir Evil]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/?GT1=10533

This study illustrates why abortion needs to be legal world wide.

I think it further illustrates why you should of been an abortion.

[darin]

We should make cars illegal too.

And stupidity. Course, we'd need most of Congress thrown in jail. :)

[theHawk]

Your own country has desided it should stay safe and legal.

Our "country" has never decided anything about abortion except the partial-birth abortion BAN. A few judges on the Supreme Court decided it for America. The liberals are way too afraid to let the American people decide on the issue.

[truthmatters]

Abortion is legal in the US. The reason it is legal is because people were sick to death of hearing stories of women dying from botched abortions. Many ofr you are too young to remember the stories in the paper about just such occurances.

When you make abortion illegal you do not change the ammount of abortions being performed you merely sent the patient to the underground and what you get is dead and maimed pregnant women.

READ the study and like an adult face the facts.

America and all the other countries who faced this fact long ago have saved lives.

[PostmodernProphet]

The reason it is legal is because people were sick to death of hearing stories of women dying from botched abortions.

truth, according to the CDC, fewer than 200 women died of the complications of illegal abortions in the year prior to Roe v Wade....there were more deaths from bicycle accidents than illegal abortions....I don't recall people demanding that bicycles be outlawed......


America and all the other countries who faced this fact long ago have saved lives.


assuming of course, you ignore the 46 million lives it cost.....

in third world countries where women are dying from illegal abortions they are dying in even greater numbers from giving birth....it's because of a lack of health care and penicillin, not because of the lack of abortion rights.....

if you look at the statistics for abortion both before and after Roe v Wade in the US you will find that the number of abortions occurring increased dramatically.....the only reason this study reached different conclusions is that the numbers were estimated....and they were estimated by the Gutmacher Institute, which is the research arm of Planned Parenthood....

I don't know anyone who thinks Planned Parenthood is going to say anything honest about abortion......do you?

[truthmatters]

You didnt read the study did you?

The study shows that you do not stop abortions by making them illegal. You send it underground and you end up with no fetus and a more maimed and dead women. Those 200 women you metioned were people who were someones daughter or sister. Have you no heart?



The study was done by Gilda Sedgh of the Guttmacher Institute in the United States and colleagues from the World Health Organization

[PostmodernProphet]

You didnt read the study did you?

The study shows that you do not stop abortions by making them illegal. You send it underground and you end up with no fetus and a more maimed and dead women. Those 200 women you metioned were people who were someones daughter or sister. Have you no heart?



The study was done by Gilda Sedgh of the Guttmacher Institute in the United States and colleagues from the World Health Organization

actually, I read a premilinary copy published by Guttmacher about a month ago.....that's when I first became aware it was a total fabrication and misrepresentation....now, as far as having no heart, let me assure you I have a heart....and the 46 million who died because liberals want to kill their children, had hearts....the difference is, mine's still beating....

[truthmatters]

actually, I read a premilinary copy published by Guttmacher about a month ago.....that's when I first became aware it was a total fabrication and misrepresentation....now, as far as having no heart, let me assure you I have a heart....and the 46 million who died because liberals want to kill their children, had hearts....the difference is, mine's still beating....


You are dishonest. Anyone who would suggest that only liberals have abbortions is dishonest. Anyone who would discredit a study on no basis and claimed in was done by someone else when they apparently are very familiar with it by thier own admission is dishonest.

You compare illegal abortion deaths to bike riding. As if to suggest that illegal abortions should not be thwarted. You are displaying no heart whatsoever.

[theHawk]

Abortion is legal in the US. The reason it is legal is because people were sick to death of hearing stories of women dying from botched abortions. Many ofr you are too young to remember the stories in the paper about just such occurances.

When you make abortion illegal you do not change the ammount of abortions being performed you merely sent the patient to the underground and what you get is dead and maimed pregnant women.

READ the study and like an adult face the facts.

America and all the other countries who faced this fact long ago have saved lives.


I'm not disputing that abortions would still occur if it were illegal. But when you say this country had a choice in our abortion laws, thats an outright lie. The Roe v. Wade decision is a farce and should be overturned. When it is overturned, it won't be the end of abortion in America like liberals fear. It will simply allow the states to pass their own laws. It will probably still remain legal in most of the US, but just more restricted...except of course in the more liberal states like California and NY. Also, there is nothing "safe" about legal abortions. Many women die each year from abortions.


And pardon me if I don't feel much remorse for a woman that dies as a result from getting an abortion, whether legal or not. I don't feel anything for child molesters or murderers that get killed in prison either. They're pretty much in the same boat.

[truthmatters]

I'm not disputing that abortions would still occur if it were illegal. But when you say this country had a choice in our abortion laws, thats an outright lie. The Roe v. Wade decision is a farce and should be overturned. When it is overturned, it won't be the end of abortion in America like liberals fear. It will simply allow the states to pass their own laws. It will probably still remain legal in most of the US, but just more restricted...except of course in the more liberal states like California and NY. Also, there is nothing "safe" about legal abortions. Many women die each year from abortions.


And pardon me if I don't feel much remorse for a woman that dies as a result from getting an abortion, whether legal or not. I don't feel anything for child molesters or murderers that get killed in prison either. They're pretty much in the same boat.



I note you provide no citing of facts to back any of that diatribe.

[avatar4321]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/?GT1=10533

This study illustrates why abortion needs to be legal world wide.

Murder happens where its illegal as well. but I don see you trying to repeal those laws... wait yes you are.

[truthmatters]

Murder happens where its illegal as well. but I don see you trying to repeal those laws... wait yes you are.



Your own country does not consider abortion murder. If you feel so strongly I would think you would want to move to a country which agrees with you?

[darin]

You didnt read the study did you?

The study shows that you do not stop abortions by making them illegal. You send it underground and you end up with no fetus and a more maimed and dead women. Those 200 women you metioned were people who were someones daughter or sister. Have you no heart?



The study was done by Gilda Sedgh of the Guttmacher Institute in the United States and colleagues from the World Health Organization

You're speculating. How many maimed and dead women happen? Eleventy?

We KNOW fewer abortions would happen if it were made illegal. That's a FACT regardless of somebody's slanted biased study.

You "Speculate" women would be having it done in secret.

I'd take KNOWING we aren't murdering babies - have you no HEART? - over speculation some idiots would have an abortion done by an incompetent, ANY day.

[truthmatters]

DMP, show how the study is biased? Back up what you claim with some kind of facts instead of just opinion.

The reason Roe v Wade is backed by so many is the toll of illegal abortion on the comunnity. You are too young to remember the actual impact of of illegal abortion. It was a BIG part of the arguement at the time.

[Immanuel]

Your own country does not consider abortion murder. If you feel so strongly I would think you would want to move to a country which agrees with you?

WHOAAAA! Dear,

Why should we have to move because a couple million far left liberals have convinced most of the rest of the country not to care about human life? We have as much right in this country to work to change things that are clearly wrong as you do!

Immie

[darin]

DMP, show how the study is biased? Back up what you claim with some kind of facts instead of just opinion.

Honey, EVERY study is fallible. Every Study has SOO MANY Variables which can affect the 'outcome' of the study, or it's conclusions. It's really 10th grade stuff - how Studies are NOT proof or evidence, but just a 'general idea' of something. Do you want me to teach you about that?


The reason Roe v Wade is backed by so many is the toll of illegal abortion on the comunnity. You are too young to remember the actual impact of of illegal abortion. It was a BIG part of the arguement at the time.

And you're too old to understand the people of today are NOT the people of yesterday, who'd ram a coat-hanger in themselves.

Hey - here's ONE EXAMPLE of the fallacy of that "study": They lump ALL illegal abortions in the 'Unsafe Abortion' category. That's HORRIBLY inaccurate and mere speculation. Also - for the number of 'underground' abortions; it's IMPOSSIBLE to know because if they are 'under ground' nobody is reporting the stats.

Your study assumes too much. It's interesting to look at - but only the intellectually weak would rally behind it and start waving flags.

Here's ONE MORE point to show your study is stupid:


In North America, there are 33 abortions for every 100 live births, while in Africa, where abortion is illegal in most countries, there are 17 abortions for every 100 live births.

To me, it seems abortion rates are nearly CUT IN HALF in places where it's illegal.

I thought abortion rates stayed the same? Weird. 33% rate in N.America where it's legal....17% in Africa where it's largely illegal. hrm...yeah....odd.

[truthmatters]

Guys you are refusing the entire reason abortion is not illegal.

Abortion is legal to save lives. When you make abortion illegal you do not stop abortions you send them underground. The facts have long been documented in many ways. Refusing ANY documentaion is merely proof you refuse any information which does not ift into you world view. Abortion will never again be illegal and unsafe. You are merely on the wrong side of an arguement which has already been settled by society.

[darin]

Guys you are refusing the entire reason abortion is not illegal.

Abortion is legal to save lives. When you make abortion illegal you do not stop abortions you send them underground. The facts have long been documented in many ways. Refusing ANY documentaion is merely proof you refuse any information which does not ift into you world view. Abortion will never again be illegal and unsafe. You are merely on the wrong side of an arguement which has already been settled by society.

But what about the lives Abortion KILLS, you heartless bastard. :(


PS:

Argument.
Documentation.

[PostmodernProphet]

You are dishonest. Anyone who would suggest that only liberals have abbortions is dishonest. Anyone who would discredit a study on no basis and claimed in was done by someone else when they apparently are very familiar with it by thier own admission is dishonest.


excuse me?.....how am I dishonest...I stated the study was done by the Guttmacher Institute which is the research arm of Planned Parenthood.....that is 100% accurate.....Guttmacher was one of the founders of Planned Parenthood....if you take time to read the study, rather than the summary found in your article, you will find that the numbers used to calculate deaths due to illegal abortions in third world countries were estimates.....what was the source of the estimates?.....the Guttmacher Institute.....thus, the research arm of Planned Parenthood manufactured the data upon which the study was based and then drafted the conclusions drawn from it.....do I have any reason to suspect it truthful?......

now, for the rest....if you are going to pretend that it is conservatives that want abortions to be legal instead of liberals, then you aren't dishonest, you are brainless.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Abortion is legal to save lives.

let's be honest, truth.....abortion is legal because a small segment of society wanted to be able to kill their children without remorse......even the abortion providers who testified to Congress at the time about the deaths of women from illegal abortions have admitted they outright lied about it....it's time for you to face it as well.....

[Immanuel]

But what about the lives Abortion KILLS, you heartless bastard. :(



Her point is, and I would guess you understand this, that whether or not abortions are legal those 46 million human beings are going to die anyway. Therefore, abortions should remain legal in order to save the lives of women who would have unsafe abortions.

In some respects she is right. Many of those women would have abortions even if abortion were illegal. Here in the U.S. I'm sure thanks to the black market and the availability of drugs such as RU-486 and abortionists who are out to make a quick buck, she's right we can't stop abortion.

I've come to feel we cannot win this battle by demanding abortions be illegal. Even if they were illegal abortions would continue although she is wrong in the assumption that they would be any more unsafe than any other operation or drug here in the U.S. thanks to Russell-Ucliff or what ever the companies name is. We need to change our tactics from overturn Roe to one of education about abortion.

The left has beat us by convincing the world that abortion is a necessary evil. We need to defeat them at their own game and convince the world that abortion is evil, period. Other than that, without God's intervention, our cause is lost.

Immie

PS brand me a pessimist. :)

[darin]

Her point is, and I would guess you understand this, that whether or not abortions are legal those 46 million human beings are going to die anyway. Therefore, abortions should remain legal in order to save the lives of women who would have unsafe abortions.

Gross speculation.


In some respects she is right. Many of those women would have abortions even if abortion were illegal. Here in the U.S. I'm sure thanks to the black market and the availability of drugs such as RU-486 and abortionists who are out to make a quick buck, she's right we can't stop abortion.


But even the word you chose "many" implies not-all...or less-than-all. See where I'm going with that?



The left has beat us by convincing the world that abortion is a necessary evil. We need to defeat them at their own game and convince the world that abortion is evil, period. Other than that, without God's intervention, our cause is lost.

Immie

PS brand me a pessimist. :)

No - I think you're a realist. Frankly, the world WILL get worse from the perspective of believers. Humanists will take more and more power in our governments and societies. As it was in the days of Noah - it'll be like that again...before...you know. :)

[Immanuel]

Gross speculation.

But, quite accurate I am sure.




But even the word you chose "many" implies not-all...or less-than-all. See where I'm going with that?

Don't need to convince me of this. I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that this is their argument and one that we will never be able to prove is inaccurate.




No - I think you're a realist. Frankly, the world WILL get worse from the perspective of believers. Humanists will take more and more power in our governments and societies. As it was in the days of Noah - it'll be like that again...before...you know. :)

You feel this way too, huh? ;) God help us!

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

Her point is, and I would guess you understand this, that whether or not abortions are legal those 46 million human beings are going to die anyway.

that is an absolute absurdity.....I can't imagine anyone would actually believe that to be true.....

[darin]

But, quite accurate I am sure.



But unfounded. It's your opinion based on your gut-feeling. In no way does it represent reality; except by happenstance.


Don't need to convince me of this. I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that this is their argument and one that we will never be able to prove is inaccurate.

It becomes increasingly impossible to prove Truth to folk the further they get away from God.




You feel this way too, huh? ;) God help us!

Immie


Not that i FEEL that way - it's foretold in Scripture. Not God help us - God keep this going; let's pray for the quick return! :)

[manu1959]

Guys you are refusing the entire reason abortion is not illegal.

Abortion is legal to save lives. When you make abortion illegal you do not stop abortions you send them underground. The facts have long been documented in many ways. Refusing ANY documentaion is merely proof you refuse any information which does not ift into you world view. Abortion will never again be illegal and unsafe. You are merely on the wrong side of an arguement which has already been settled by society.

abortion does not save lives ..... abortion is the choice to end a life ....

abortion as birth control ..... is one of the most selfish acts i can think of

tell ya what keep it legal for rape victims and valid life or death medical reasons verified by 3 independant doctors....

other than that...you have sex....you get to keep the parting gift

[darin]

In North America, there are 33 abortions for every 100 live births, while in Africa, where abortion is illegal in most countries, there are 17 abortions for every 100 live births.

To me, it seems abortion rates are nearly CUT IN HALF in places where it's illegal.

I thought abortion rates stayed the same? Weird. 33% rate in N.America where it's legal....17% in Africa where it's largely illegal. hrm...yeah....odd.

[Immanuel]

Not that i FEEL that way - it's foretold in Scripture. Not God help us - God keep this going; let's pray for the quick return! :)

You know, I was thinking after I posted that, but just didn't go back and change it, that "feel" was a poor choice of words. Guess I was right. ;)


Originally posted by PMP

that is an absolute absurdity.....I can't imagine anyone would actually believe that to be true.....

Hey! Don't shoot the messenger. :) I'm just relaying what I have heard from them so many times.

I will say though that making abortions illegal is not going to stop them. Abortion is a BIG business and like drugs isn't going away.



Originally posted by dmp

To me, it seems abortion rates are nearly CUT IN HALF in places where it's illegal.

I thought abortion rates stayed the same? Weird. 33% rate in N.America where it's legal....17% in Africa where it's largely illegal. hrm...yeah....odd.

Good point... but there are other variables involved such as the liberal influence on the view of life here in America?

Immie

[darin]

I will say though that making abortions illegal is not going to stop them. Abortion is a BIG business and like drugs isn't going away.

Immie

That's not the point. The point is: People will do what people will do. If our society is TRUE to it's goal of 'protecting' we won't allow/condone/promote activities which cause harm. We see that in Traffic laws, Marriage laws, Gun laws...yet we allow and promote SOME activities which are completely contrary to that - such as Abortion-on-demand, and homosexuals adopting, etc. Godless society is two-faced.


Good point... but there are other variables involved such as the liberal influence on the view of life here in America?

Immie

Likely - but it shows the fallacy of "Statistics" - because stats rarely tell the whole story. :)

[Immanuel]

That's not the point. The point is: People will do what people will do. If our society is TRUE to it's goal of 'protecting' we won't allow/condone/promote activities which cause harm. We see that in Traffic laws, Marriage laws, Gun laws...yet we allow and promote SOME activities which are completely contrary to that - such as Abortion-on-demand, and homosexuals adopting, etc. Godless society is two-faced.

Why does it sound like you are trying to convince me?

No need.

By the way, see my edit on my last post. There are other variables. {Never mind you already did}

And doggone it, don't shoot the messenger! I didn't say I agreed with or supported any of this.

Immie

[truthmatters]

excuse me?.....how am I dishonest...I stated the study was done by the Guttmacher Institute which is the research arm of Planned Parenthood.....that is 100% accurate.....Guttmacher was one of the founders of Planned Parenthood....if you take time to read the study, rather than the summary found in your article, you will find that the numbers used to calculate deaths due to illegal abortions in third world countries were estimates.....what was the source of the estimates?.....the Guttmacher Institute.....thus, the research arm of Planned Parenthood manufactured the data upon which the study was based and then drafted the conclusions drawn from it.....do I have any reason to suspect it truthful?......






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guttmacher_Institute

It has been independent since 1977.

Where is your proof they manufactered the data in the study?







now, for the rest....if you are going to pretend that it is conservatives that want abortions to be legal instead of liberals, then you aren't dishonest, you are brainless.....

Conservatives have abortions. Conservatives also have Gay sex and fight gay rights too.

You said liberals want to kill thier babies. This is a flat out lie.

[darin]

Conservatives have abortions. Conservatives also have Gay sex and fight gay rights too.

You said liberals want to kill thier babies. This is a flat out lie.

And you wrote "Regardless of law, abortion rates stay the same" which is a flat-out lie, based on the line of data I pulled from your study.

This thread answers a forum-old question: "Does TM really, REALLY read data and decide for herself, or does she get all slobbery over a headline which seems to support her position?"

:)

PS:

Their.

[truthmatters]

Abortion rates same whether legal or not
Study: Rich, poor countries have equal statistics; half of procedures unsafe



updated 9:58 a.m. PT, Thurs., Oct. 18, 2007
LONDON - Women are just as likely to get an abortion in countries where it is outlawed as they are in countries where it is legal, according to research published Friday.

In a study examining abortion trends from 1995 to 2003, experts also found that abortion rates are virtually equal in rich and poor countries, and that half of all abortions worldwide are unsafe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/?GT1=10533


Its what the study and article find.

[darin]

Yet you can't explain the study and article's contradictory data?

[truthmatters]

Maybe you should point out what you see as contridictory data?

[darin]

Maybe you should go back and read?

Abortions legal in N. America = 33 abortions for every 100 births.
Abortions Illegal in Africa = 17 abortions for every 100 births.

THAT can lead a reasonable person to believe abortion rates are lower in countries where abortions are illegal.

Pretty simple, really...AND goes to show the shortfalls in your general debating skills. You pick headlines which trumpet what you believe and don't seem to REALLY care about the source, or the data, or the method of data collection.

[theHawk]

I note you provide no citing of facts to back any of that diatribe.

And yet you cannot refute any of it. Especially the part where our country hasn't "decided" anything on the matter. Please show me some legislation that passed through our Congress or the part in our Constitution that says abortion is a right.
If "our country" believes abortion is not murder, why not let the people vote on it?

[truthmatters]

Maybe you should go back and read?

Abortions legal in N. America = 33 abortions for every 100 births.
Abortions Illegal in Africa = 17 abortions for every 100 births.

THAT can lead a reasonable person to believe abortion rates are lower in countries where abortions are illegal.

Pretty simple, really...AND goes to show the shortfalls in your general debating skills. You pick headlines which trumpet what you believe and don't seem to REALLY care about the source, or the data, or the method of data collection.


That is flawed logic because they are completely different societies.

[darin]

That is flawed logic because they are completely different societies.

Yet you getting all horny cuz you found a headline which states "Abortion rates stay the same" isn't flawed? ESPECIALLY when there's NO qualifier or context to the statement?

Women are women. Period. There are some who want to kill their unborn baby, and some who consider it because it's sorta-safe to do it in our society. The last few are the women about whom I am concerned.

[Immanuel]

If "our country" believes abortion is not murder, why not let the people vote on it?

Easy answer for that, because we might actually vote to make it illegal or at least in some way restrict it severly. They can't allow that.

Immie

[avatar4321]

Easy answer for that, because we might actually vote to make it illegal or at least in some way restrict it severly. They can't allow that.

Immie

Can't let the people decide. It destroys every precept of liberalism.

[Immanuel]

Can't let the people decide. It destroys every precept of liberalism.

Well, you must not forget... they know better than everyone else.

Immie

[Pale Rider]

Hey, lets legalize rape and murder too, because it happens when its illegal anyway.

In a very real sense, murder is already legal, the murder of the unborn.

[theHawk]

In a very real sense, murder is already legal, the murder of the unborn.

I know that, but I was talking to a liberal. :laugh2:

[JohnDoe]

And yet you cannot refute any of it. Especially the part where our country hasn't "decided" anything on the matter. Please show me some legislation that passed through our Congress or the part in our Constitution that says abortion is a right.
If "our country" believes abortion is not murder, why not let the people vote on it?26 states had abortion as LEGAL right prior to roe v wade, I have read, and that would make it a majority of states. These states did make it legal through legislation, which means it was a decision of the people, through their representation, as it should be in a Republic Democracy... just an fyi....

I agree that this belongs to the states or to the people, but this was precisely the case prior to roe v wade when 26 states had it legal in one way or another.

jd

[JohnDoe]

actually, I read a premilinary copy published by Guttmacher about a month ago.....that's when I first became aware it was a total fabrication and misrepresentation....now, as far as having no heart, let me assure you I have a heart....and the 46 million who died because liberals want to kill their children, had hearts....the difference is, mine's still beating....
I bet ya half of those women that had abortions as a teen or young adult were not even voting or ascribed to one Political Party or another...

In other words, Republican girls HAVE ABORTIONS TOO...in your terms, they KILL also.... so making this as though only "liberals" are aborting their unwanted children is a complete MYTH imo....

Republican girls do the naughty deed outside of marriage also and they don't all go on to have these babies as you seem to want to imply.

[Pale Rider]

I know that, but I was talking to a liberal. :laugh2:

I understand... :thumb:

[Pale Rider]

I bet ya half of those women that had abortions as a teen or young adult were not even voting or ascribed to one Political Party or another...

In other words, Republican girls HAVE ABORTIONS TO...in your terms, they KILL also.... so making this as though only "liberals" are aborting their unwanted children is a complete MYTH imo....

Republican girls do the naughty deed outside of marriage also and they don't all go on to have these babies as you seem to want to imply.

Well... you've assumed what you're saying is true. Now can you prove it?

[Immanuel]

I bet ya half of those women that had abortions as a teen or young adult were not even voting or ascribed to one Political Party or another...

In other words, Republican girls HAVE ABORTIONS TO...in your terms, they KILL also.... so making this as though only "liberals" are aborting their unwanted children is a complete MYTH imo....

Republican girls do the naughty deed outside of marriage also and they don't all go on to have these babies as you seem to want to imply.

PMP did not say only liberals abort their children.

The sentence doesn't even come close to reading in such a manner.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

I know that, but I was talking to a liberal. :laugh2:
it is not murder according to the Bible...because an unborn child does not have the same value as a child that has taken its first breath...

It is killing an unborn child...which still has great value and worth and was punishable by a fine in the case I am quoting below... but not murder, only the mother was held to the laws on murder or harm of a living, already born person....in Exodus....


22-25 "When there's a fight and in the fight a pregnant woman is hit so that she miscarries but is not otherwise hurt, the one responsible has to pay whatever the husband demands in compensation. But if there is further damage, then you must give life for life—eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


22If men contend with each other, and a pregnant woman [interfering] is hurt so that she has a miscarriage, yet no further damage follows, [the one who hurt her] shall surely be punished with a fine [paid] to the woman's husband, as much as the judges determine.

23But if any damage follows, then you shall give life for life,

24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25Burn for burn, wound for wound, and lash for lash.



this is the only thing close to an abortion that I have been able to find in the entire Bible, both old testament and new testament....it is not an abortion but it speaks of the mindset, the understanding that an unborn child is NOT of the same value as the Born person....the Mother in this case, where if she were harmed then it would be an eye for an eye a burn for a burn a life for a life type situation.



Well... you've assumed what you're saying is true. Now can you prove it?Out of the 3 women that I personally know that have had abortions 2 are republican women and one is a liberal...all the way. Can you prove they are all liberals?


Btw, one of the women is a Pastor's/Minister's wife, when she was young...


PMP did not say only liberals abort their children.

The sentence doesn't even come close to reading in such a manner.

Immie
Really Immie?

Then what does this mean to you or imply to you??????



....and the 46 million who died because liberals want to kill their children,

jd

[theHawk]

it is not murder according to the Bible...because an unborn child does not have the same value as a child that has taken its first breath...

It is killing an unborn child...which still has great value and worth and was punishable by a fine in the case I am quoting below... but not murder, only the mother was held to the laws on murder or harm of a living, already born person....in Exodus....






this is the only thing close to an abortion that I have been able to find in the entire Bible, both old testament and new testament....it is not an abortion but it speaks of the mindset, the understanding that an unborn child is NOT of the same value as the Born person....the Mother in this case, where if she were harmed then it would be an eye for an eye a burn for a burn a life for a life type situation.


Out of the 3 women that I personally know that have had abortions 2 are republican women and one is a liberal...all the way. Can you prove they are all liberals?


Btw, one of the women is a Pastor's/Minister's wife, when she was young...


Really Immie?

Then what does this mean to you or imply to you??????




jd

The problem with your arguement is the translation is wrong. The word used for miscarriage in the original Hebrew in no way implies death, like it does in modern English. A more accurate translation would be "premature birth". Hebrew did have words that conveyed the meaning of death upon birth, but they did NOT use it in this verse.


This inductive analysis shows us something important: Nothing about the word yasa implies the death of the child. The context may give us this information, as in Numbers 12:12, but the word itself does not.

This leads us to our next question: What in the context justifies our assumption that the child that “comes forth” is dead? The answer is, nothing does. There is no indication anywhere in the verse that a fine is assessed for a miscarriage and a more severe penalty is assessed for harming the mother.

This becomes immediately clear when the Hebrew words are translated in their normal, conventional way (the word “further” in the NASB is not in the original):

“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that the child comes forth, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life....”

The text seems to require a fine for the premature birth, but injury to either of the parties involved incurs a more severe punishment.[8] Millard Erickson notes that “there is no specification as to who must be harmed for the lex talionis [life for life] to come into effect. Whether the mother or the child, the principle applies.”[9]

Gleason Archer, Professor of Old Testament and Semitic Studies at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, concludes:

“There is no ambiguity here, whatever. What is required is that if there should be an injury either to the mother or to her children, the injury shall be avenged by a like injury to the assailant. If it involves the life (nepes) of the premature baby, then the assailant shall pay for it with his life. There is no second-class status attached to the fetus under this rule; he is avenged just as if he were a normally delivered child or an older person: life for life. Or if the injury is less, but not serious enough to involve inflicting a like injury on the offender, then he may offer compensation in monetary damages...”[10]
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5700



If the above translation is true, it actually reaffirms that the life of an unborn baby being taken, should be repaid with life.

[avatar4321]

I bet ya half of those women that had abortions as a teen or young adult were not even voting or ascribed to one Political Party or another...

In other words, Republican girls HAVE ABORTIONS TO...in your terms, they KILL also.... so making this as though only "liberals" are aborting their unwanted children is a complete MYTH imo....

Republican girls do the naughty deed outside of marriage also and they don't all go on to have these babies as you seem to want to imply.

There are liberal Republicans as well as Liberal Democrats.

But I can guarentee you that those who believe that Abortion is a sin and are pro life are far less likely to abort their children. Regardless of political affiliation, it guarentees that abortionists are culling their supporters out of the system.

[PostmodernProphet]

I bet ya half of those women that had abortions as a teen or young adult were not even voting or ascribed to one Political Party or another...

In other words, Republican girls HAVE ABORTIONS TO...in your terms, they KILL also.... so making this as though only "liberals" are aborting their unwanted children is a complete MYTH imo....

Republican girls do the naughty deed outside of marriage also and they don't all go on to have these babies as you seem to want to imply.

I didn't say Republican/Democrat...I said liberal....are you trying to tell me that conservatives are pro-abortion and liberals are pro-life?....if that's a "myth" then so is the existence of liberals.....

[manu1959]

does abortion kill a living thing?.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I bet ya half of those women that had abortions as a teen or young adult were not even voting or ascribed to one Political Party or another...

In other words, Republican girls HAVE ABORTIONS TO...in your terms, they KILL also.... so making this as though only "liberals" are aborting their unwanted children is a complete MYTH imo....

Republican girls do the naughty deed outside of marriage also and they don't all go on to have these babies as you seem to want to imply.

You cannot deny that liberals are the ones who want it to be legal for women to kill their children while conservatives are the ones who do not.....

I will take it a step further, liberals rationalize their desire to kill their children y pretending they never really thought of them as children.....they argue they are merely masses of protoplasm or that they are parasites.....

Let's try a little poll....if you ask a liberal woman when her baby is due, which answer is the one least likely to be given:
a) a few weeks
b) a month
c) two months
d) it isn't a baby, its a parasite.....

[PostmodernProphet]

does abortion kill a living thing?.....

no, it kills a living human being.....not just a thing.....

[manu1959]

You cannot deny that liberals are the ones who want it to be legal for women to kill their children while conservatives are the ones who do not.....

I will take it a step further, liberals rationalize their desire to kill their children y pretending they never really thought of them as children.....they argue they are merely masses of protoplasm or that they are parasites.....

Let's try a little poll....if you ask a liberal woman when her baby is due, which answer is the one least likely to be given:
a) a few weeks
b) a month
c) two months
d) it isn't a baby, its a parasite.....


"d"............

how about this one....

who is more likely to murder an abortion doctor for performing a legal medical procedure.....

a) liberal
b) conservative

[manu1959]

no, it kills a living human being.....not just a thing.....

your description can be debated and is....people will say it is not ahuman being yet as it does not breathe air......legaly if it is a human being then wy are you not 9 mothns old when you are born so if you want to win the argment that it is alive and you are killing it you need to focus the argument.....

either what is in the womb is alive or it isn't.....so you are either killing a living thing or you are not....

[PostmodernProphet]

"d"............

how about this one....

who is more likely to murder an abortion doctor for performing a legal medical procedure.....

a) liberal
b) conservative

c) an insane radical....
(violating the law for political reasons is hardly a conservative characteristic)........

[PostmodernProphet]

your description can be debated and is....

certainly....there was a time when people debated whether Jews were human, whether blacks were human.....in time, we will think back on pro-abortionists the same we think back on Nazis and slave owners today......(let's be honest, I already do).....

[PostmodernProphet]

either what is in the womb is alive or it isn't.....
/shrugs....the fact that it is alive is not scientifically deniable......

[manu1959]

certainly....there was a time when people debated whether Jews were human, whether blacks were human.....in time, we will think back on pro-abortionists the same we think back on Nazis and slave owners today......(let's be honest, I already do).....

change the argument if you want.....not relally interested in discussing analogies.....

a fetus is not a human being until it can function as one it simply isn't....

it will become a human being when it is born ....

however a fetus is a living thing .... and an abortion kills a living thing ....

[Pale Rider]

Out of the 3 women that I personally know that have had abortions 2 are republican women and one is a liberal...all the way. Can you prove they are all liberals?

I can only take your word for that, and that certainly isn't proof. I'm not calling you a liar.

But when one of the bedrock issues for conservatives is pro life, and one of the bedrock issues for liberals is pro abortion, who does it makes sense would have the most abortions? Right... liberals.

[PostmodernProphet]

it will become a human being when it is born ....


not so fast....if we accept your definition of human being, it may not be a human being when it is born if it needs to be on mechanical life support.....for that matter, if it has some physical or mental handicaps that prevent it from full function, it may NEVER become a human being.....

[PostmodernProphet]

who does it makes sense would have the most abortions?

do you guys realize that it makes absolutely no difference who has had an abortion?.....the question is who wants to make sure they remain legal......

[Pale Rider]

change the argument if you want.....not relally interested in discussing analogies.....

a fetus is not a human being until it can function as one it simply isn't....

it will become a human being when it is born ....

however a fetus is a living thing .... and an abortion kills a living thing ....

You realize that you're basing your argument on your opinion...

What do think women gestate in the womb? Pigs? Dogs?

It's a child. A "human" child, and every bit as ALIVE as you or I. You stick something up the mothers womb and fracture it's skull and suck it's brains out, not only does it feel pain, but yes, you are killing it. You are murdering a human being.

And that's my opinion.

[manu1959]

not so fast....if we accept your definition of human being, it may not be a human being when it is born if it needs to be on mechanical life support.....for that matter, if it has some physical or mental handicaps that prevent it from full function, it may NEVER become a human being.....

no my definition is simple:

when it is born is a human being .... until then it is not ....

it is a living thing from the moment it is concieved and one should not kill living things .... especially living things that are going to become human beings....

you want it to be a human being when it is concieved .... fine .... have your definition ... unfortunatley your definition is currently legally .... useless ....

have you noticed that if you murder a preganant woman that wants to have her baby you will be charged with two murders by the govt....but if you help that woman abort her fetus.....the govt will help you both pay for it....

[manu1959]

You realize that you're basing your argument on your opinion...

What do think women gestate in the womb? Pigs? Dogs?

It's a child. A "human" child, and every bit as ALIVE as you or I. You stick something up the mothers womb and fracture it's skull and suck it's brains out, not only does it feel pain, but yes, you are killing it. You are murdering a human being.

And that's my opinion.

all arguments are based on opinions.....

answer me this.....setting aside what you want to call it for a moment....

is it or is it not alive?

a simple yes it is alive ...or no it is not alive will suffice

[Pale Rider]

no my definition is simple:

when it is born is a human being .... until then it is not ....

it is a living thing from the moment it is concieved and one should not kill living things .... especially living things that are going to become human beings....

you want it to be a human being when it is concieved .... fine .... have your definition ... unfortunatley your definition is currently legally .... useless ....

have you noticed that if you murder a preganant woman that wants to have her baby you will be charged with two murders by the govt....but if you help that woman abort her fetus.....the govt will help you both pay for it....

For all your conservative'ness manu, your opinion of what life and abortion is, is quite liberal.

[Pale Rider]

all arguments are based on opinions.....

answer me this.....setting aside what you want to call it for a moment....

is it or is it not alive?

a simple yes it is alive ...or no it is not alive will suffice

It is, undeniably, scientifically, alive, and human.

I'm actually surprized you'd ask such a thing. You're an articulate, intelligent guy. Do you think something that's "dead" would "grow?"

[Immanuel]

it is not murder according to the Bible...because an unborn child does not have the same value as a child that has taken its first breath...

this is the only thing close to an abortion that I have been able to find in the entire Bible, both old testament and new testament....it is not an abortion but it speaks of the mindset, the understanding that an unborn child is NOT of the same value as the Born person....the Mother in this case, where if she were harmed then it would be an eye for an eye a burn for a burn a life for a life type situation.


Can you tell me where in the Bible you find such a thing. I've read the Bible plenty of times and never once seen it state anything remotely resembling an unborn child has less worth than a born child or a human being.

The passage you use here does not by any stretch of the immagination claim that the unborn child is worse less. It states that the offender must pay whatever the father demands nothing more nothing less. The passage does not imply that the offender hit the woman with the intent on killing the child which if that were the case would be murder. It insinuates an accidental miscarriage which would not be murder.


Out of the 3 women that I personally know that have had abortions 2 are republican women and one is a liberal...all the way. Can you prove they are all liberals?

Once again, no one claimed only liberals have abortions. It doesn't even fit with the question.



Really Immie?

Then what does this mean to you or imply to you??????

It implies just exactly what it says that liberals want to kill their children. I don't agree with the statement. I personally believe that the comment was far from accurate and in fact slanderous, but it implies that liberals want the right to kill their own babies. That is what it said.

The consequences of this right lead to the death of 46 million babies annually world wide. Now, that statement of mine insinuates that there would be zero abortions if abortion were illegal and that is not the case, but abortions do account for the death of at least 46 million people and we are not talking about how many of those are actually twins or more in number. Trying to determine how many are liberal and how many are conservative would be difficult because of the third world factor.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

The problem with your arguement is the translation is wrong. The word used for miscarriage in the original Hebrew in no way implies death, like it does in modern English. A more accurate translation would be "premature birth". Hebrew did have words that conveyed the meaning of death upon birth, but they did NOT use it in this verse.


http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5700



If the above translation is true, it actually reaffirms that the life of an unborn baby being taken, should be repaid with life.
I believe it is your translation that is wrong and it is my understanding that only recently have people tried to change the translation to say delivers prematurely".

There are severaqll reasons why I believe this.


22If men contend with each other, and a pregnant woman [interfering] is hurt so that she has a miscarriage, yet no further damage follows, [the one who hurt her] shall surely be punished with a fine [paid] to the woman's husband, as much as the judges determine.

23But if any damage follows, then you shall give life for life,

24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

25Burn for burn, wound for wound, and lash for lash.


First, delivering ababy alive was not a sure thing back in the day that this was writen..there was no modern medicine and babies or the mother frequently died at birth.

A baby being born prematurely but alive would have been extremely rare, AND if it were born alive as you and the other person proposes then there would have been no damages to anyone, and there would be no money to be paid to the father of the child or the husband of the woman, so the presumption that the text means prematurely is not in the least logical...

The woman miscarried the baby and the penalty for such damage and harm done to her and her husband was a financial penalty, this is clear from this scripture imo...

And if the woman was harmed, (but was not at the time of the miscarriage), at a later time but due to the fight by the 2 men, then for her, as a born human being, the penalty for such would be an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a burn for a burn or a life for a life....

This was speaking about her.

So I respectfully disagree and this is twisting of scripture by others to make it mean what this person contends, that the meaning was delivered prematurely instead of miscarried.

jd

[JohnDoe]

I can only take your word for that, and that certainly isn't proof. I'm not calling you a liar.

But when one of the bedrock issues for conservatives is pro life, and one of the bedrock issues for liberals is pro abortion, who does it makes sense would have the most abortions? Right... liberals.
many republicans talk a good talk but they don't necessarily walk the good walk... we have seen this quite a bit with the things coming out of the closet lately....

the word "liberals" is purposely used to dispariage Democrats or the Democratic party, they are used as one and the same, interchangable words to most conservatives... there have not been 46 million liberals to kill their children since abortion became legal...it was a statement used just to confirm your own voting block that Democrats are the evil ones and I respectfully disagree.

I think there have been 4 million abortions in this country and I am certain, absolutely CERTAIN that these girls were neither democratic or republican when they were making the choice on what they were going to do, and I am CERTAIN that all republican men did not save themselves for marriage and abstain from having sex before marriage as I am CERTAIN there are republican women that did not "save" themselves for marriage either!!!!

There is no way in heaven that Democrats are the only ones having sex out there before marriage... my view on this just comes from the 3 women I know, and from plain logic, mistakes are made by both sides of the aisle.

jd

[JohnDoe]

I didn't say Republican/Democrat...I said liberal....are you trying to tell me that conservatives are pro-abortion and liberals are pro-life?....if that's a "myth" then so is the existence of liberals.....
What I am saying is that Democrats are not the only ones out there having sex outside of marriage and democrats are not the only ones having abortions, even conservative women end up making the decision to have an abortion.... but mainly I am saying that most kids are neither when they are young...especially girls and that later in life they may become republican or conservative but as a teen, they end up having unwanted pregnancies too. And 2 out of the three women I know are republicans today and do not support legal abortion today, but that is not what they felt or thought when they were faced with an unwanted pregnancy themselves in their teens.

jd

[JohnDoe]

no my definition is simple:

when it is born is a human being .... until then it is not ....

it is a living thing from the moment it is concieved and one should not kill living things .... especially living things that are going to become human beings....

you want it to be a human being when it is concieved .... fine .... have your definition ... unfortunatley your definition is currently legally .... useless ....

have you noticed that if you murder a preganant woman that wants to have her baby you will be charged with two murders by the govt....but if you help that woman abort her fetus.....the govt will help you both pay for it....I respectfully disagree with your terminology. The embryo is a human .... the fetus is a human...both from conception, are human.

and both are living organisms.

however, they are not born yet, so thay have not achieved "personhood", which in my opinion comes with the first breath....and the certificate of birth thereafter.

[JohnDoe]

I can only take your word for that, and that certainly isn't proof. I'm not calling you a liar.

But when one of the bedrock issues for conservatives is pro life, and one of the bedrock issues for liberals is pro abortion, who does it makes sense would have the most abortions? Right... liberals.Well, many will argue that they are pro-choice, not pro abortion and by more than 50% or this country being liberal out of the voting public, I would say that Democrats clearly believe in having their babies and procreating! :D

jd

[JohnDoe]

Can you tell me where in the Bible you find such a thing. I've read the Bible plenty of times and never once seen it state anything remotely resembling an unborn child has less worth than a born child or a human being.

The passage you use here does not by any stretch of the immagination claim that the unborn child is worse less. It states that the offender must pay whatever the father demands nothing more nothing less. The passage does not imply that the offender hit the woman with the intent on killing the child which if that were the case would be murder. It insinuates an accidental miscarriage which would not be murder.The passage clearly states if the woman goes on to die then it goes per Law of an eye for an eye, a life for a life...but not the case with the UNBORN child...the guys fighting didn't intend to kill the "woman" either but they still would be held accountable, a life for a life, if the woman died.



Once again, no one claimed only liberals have abortions. It doesn't even fit with the question.

I disagree



It implies just exactly what it says that liberals want to kill their children. I don't agree with the statement. I personally believe that the comment was far from accurate and in fact slanderous, but it implies that liberals want the right to kill their own babies. That is what it said.

The consequences of this right lead to the death of 46 million babies annually world wide. Now, that statement of mine insinuates that there would be zero abortions if abortion were illegal and that is not the case, but abortions do account for the death of at least 46 million people and we are not talking about how many of those are actually twins or more in number. Trying to determine how many are liberal and how many are conservative would be difficult because of the third world factor.

Immienothing to argue about, to me it implied that Liberals want to abort their children, even when there are more liberals in this world today than conservatives, so that clearly shows that liberals most certainly believe in having their children imo.

[PostmodernProphet]

What I am saying is that Democrats are not the only ones out there having sex outside of marriage

?????.....who on earth cares?.....you can have sex with a knothole in a fence if you want to.....just stop killing children......

[PostmodernProphet]

by more than 50% or this country being liberal out of the voting public

??....where did you come up with that statistic?....I expect it is more likely 25% liberal, 25% conservative, 25% independant, and 25% who can't remember what "election" means......

[JohnDoe]

?????.....who on earth cares?.....you can have sex with a knothole in a fence if you want to.....just stop killing children......


Really? hmmm. that sounds real Biblical to me....NOT! The problem that I have with your take on this is that you disregard the root of the problem, sex, outside of marriage...which is prohibited by God, or the Word of God...

That is the problem, which causes many girls to have abortions in the first place... for the most part.

the root of the problem, is the problem, and is what should be addressed and changed.... a sense of greater worth to oneself taught by their parents is missing imho...

[Immanuel]

nothing to argue about, to me it implied that Liberals want to abort their children, even when there are more liberals in this world today than conservatives, so that clearly shows that liberals most certainly believe in having their children imo.

How can anyone argue with little ole you? :P

I'm not arguing with you. Just pointing out that PMP was misquoted there.


Originally posted by PMP

you can have sex with a knothole in a fence if you want to

A knothole? Where the heck did you come up with that fetish? :laugh2:

Wait, never mind, don't answer that question. I really don't want to know. ;)

Immie

[JohnDoe]

How can anyone argue with little ole you? :P

I'm not arguing with you. Just pointing out that PMP was misquoted there.



A knothole? Where the heck did you come up with that fetish? :laugh2:

Wait, never mind, don't answer that question. I really don't want to know. ;)

Immie
I don't believe pmp has said that he was misunderstood or misquoted by me on that....at least not clearly to me....? And he has posted since I responded back on that...?

But heck, I could have missed it....?

jd

[Pale Rider]

many republicans talk a good talk but they don't necessarily walk the good walk... we have seen this quite a bit with the things coming out of the closet lately....

the word "liberals" is purposely used to dispariage Democrats or the Democratic party, they are used as one and the same, interchangable words to most conservatives... there have not been 46 million liberals to kill their children since abortion became legal...it was a statement used just to confirm your own voting block that Democrats are the evil ones and I respectfully disagree.

I think there have been 4 million abortions in this country and I am certain, absolutely CERTAIN that these girls were neither democratic or republican when they were making the choice on what they were going to do, and I am CERTAIN that all republican men did not save themselves for marriage and abstain from having sex before marriage as I am CERTAIN there are republican women that did not "save" themselves for marriage either!!!!

There is no way in heaven that Democrats are the only ones having sex out there before marriage... my view on this just comes from the 3 women I know, and from plain logic, mistakes are made by both sides of the aisle.

jd

I made no claim what so ever that conservatives "never" got abortions. I'm sure they do. My point is though, that conservatives, by far and large are mostly Christian, and they are the ones that believe abortion is murder, therefore will opt to have the child. Liberals on the other hand, and yes, if you haven't noticed lately, LIBERALS have taken over the democratic party. The moveon.org's, the DU's and the far left loons run it, and they are the ones that are by far and large the separation of church and state atheists, who to them, argue abortion is NOT murder. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who between those two demo graphs is going to be most likely to get an abortion.

[Pale Rider]

Really? hmmm. that sounds real Biblical to me....NOT! The problem that I have with your take on this is that you disregard the root of the problem, sex, outside of marriage...which is prohibited by God, or the Word of God...
That is the problem, which causes many girls to have abortions in the first place... for the most part.

the root of the problem, is the problem, and is what should be addressed and changed.... a sense of greater worth to oneself taught by their parents is missing imho...

That's "PART" of the problem. The other part is the whole sale, legal murder of the unborn.

[Missileman]

I made no claim what so ever that conservatives "never" got abortions. I'm sure they do. My point is though, that conservatives, by far and large are mostly Christian, and they are the ones that believe abortion is murder, therefore will opt to have the child. Liberals on the other hand, and yes, if you haven't noticed lately, LIBERALS have taken over the democratic party. The moveon.org's, the DU's and the far left loons run it, and they are the ones that are by far and large the separation of church and state atheists, who to them, argue abortion is NOT murder. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who between those two demo graphs is going to be most likely to get an abortion.

Gore got just about half of the U.S. vote. When you say liberals, are you talking about the far left fringe, or are you talking about the approximately 50% of the U.S. that voted Democrat?

[Pale Rider]

Gore got just about half of the U.S. vote. When you say liberals, are you talking about the far left fringe, or are you talking about the approximately 50% of the U.S. that voted Democrat?

You ask that as though you didn't read one word of what I said, even though you quoted it.

Go back, read it again, then get back to me with a question that sounds like you read what I said.

[PostmodernProphet]

That is the problem, which causes many girls to have abortions in the first place... for the most part.


actually, most abortions are had by adults, not young girls...but obviously I will admit that having sex is involved in all abortions.....however, the abortion issue isn't about sex or controlling who has sex....it's about human life....

[PostmodernProphet]

I don't believe pmp has said that he was misunderstood or misquoted by me on that....at least not clearly to me....? And he has posted since I responded back on that...?

But heck, I could have missed it....?

jd

how could you have missed it?.....okay, I will repeat it very slowly.....

liberals support abortion.....conservatives oppose abortion.....abortion is killing children.....liberals support killing children....conservatives oppose killing children.....liberals support abortion because they want people to be free to kill their children without remorse....conservatives oppose abortion because they don't want people to be free to kill their children without remorse.....

the fact that a Republican had an abortion doesn't change any portion of the previous paragraph.....

did you miss it that time?.....if so, re-read the above until it sinks in.....

[PostmodernProphet]

or are you talking about the approximately 50% of the U.S. that voted Democrat?


it would be silly to think that every single person who voted for Gore was a liberal, just as it would be silly to think that every single person who voted for Bush was a conservative......the largest voting segment in the country is the moderates, who chose between the liberal candidate and the conservative candidate......

[diuretic]

how could you have missed it?.....okay, I will repeat it very slowly.....

liberals support abortion.....conservatives oppose abortion.....abortion is killing children.....liberals support killing children....conservatives oppose killing children.....liberals support abortion because they want people to be free to kill their children without remorse....conservatives oppose abortion because they don't want people to be free to kill their children without remorse.....

the fact that a Republican had an abortion doesn't change any portion of the previous paragraph.....

did you miss it that time?.....if so, re-read the above until it sinks in.....

Are you serious? Are you putting that forward as serious argument or are you just doing a bit of leg-pulling?

[JohnDoe]

how could you have missed it?.....okay, I will repeat it very slowly.....

liberals support abortion.....conservatives oppose abortion.....abortion is killing children.....liberals support killing children....conservatives oppose killing children.....liberals support abortion because they want people to be free to kill their children without remorse....conservatives oppose abortion because they don't want people to be free to kill their children without remorse.....

the fact that a Republican had an abortion doesn't change any portion of the previous paragraph.....

did you miss it that time?.....if so, re-read the above until it sinks in.....what a HUNK of garbage imho!

Conservatives talk the talk....sure, I agree with you on that....but i do not agree that they walk the walk. they have not done a single thing to reduce this killing that happens with the unwanted unborn. They have not done a single thing to zip up their pants and stop getting these women pregnant, or to stop their own fornication that causes the unwanted pregnancy in the first place. It is soooooooo hypocritical imho, that it is pathetic....to the enth degree.

jd

[Immanuel]

what a HUNK of garbage imho!

Conservatives talk the talk....sure, I agree with you on that....but i do not agree that they walk the walk. they have not done a single thing to reduce this killing that happens with the unwanted unborn. They have not done a single thing to zip up their pants and stop getting these women pregnant, or to stop their own fornication that causes the unwanted pregnancy in the first place. It is soooooooo hypocritical imho, that it is pathetic....to the enth degree.

jd

I can agree with you to some point. Conservatives in Washington, if there is such a thing, have done nothing at all to stop abortions. Whenever there are proposals that might actually help to do so, Washington conservatives raise a stink about it, sometimes for good reason, such as not allowing public schools to give out condoms and birth control to 11 year olds at other times the reasons are... manufactured at best.

Conservatives and liberals need to work together to do whatever it takes to eliminate most (preferably all) abortions. If that means compromising to allow sex education to teach about condoms AND the benefits of abstinance then so be it! If it means welfare for unwed mothers then doggone it, so be it.

The pride of the conservative movement is preventing it from compromising with the left to reduce abortions. Pride cometh before a fall or is it pride goeth before a fall. :dunno:

But you are wrong when you blame all conservatives just as I would be wrong if I blamed all liberals. Yes, both conservatives and liberals can end up in a crisis pregnancy. That is just the way life is, but it IS the radicals of both sides that are to blame.

Immie

[Hagbard Celine]

kills more people than what? Meteors? Snakes?

This statement pretty much sums up the anti-abortion argument in one fell swoop.

[PostmodernProphet]

stop their own fornication that causes the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

ah yes....liberals press for the right to kill children because conservatives keep having them......

[PostmodernProphet]

Are you serious?

sorry if you can't take the heat.....

[PostmodernProphet]

what a HUNK of garbage imho!

well, if it isn't that, feel free to explain the real reason you want to kill children.....

[manu1959]

I respectfully disagree with your terminology. The embryo is a human .... the fetus is a human...both from conception, are human.

and both are living organisms.

however, they are not born yet, so thay have not achieved "personhood", which in my opinion comes with the first breath....and the certificate of birth thereafter.

you played a semantics game in the first paragraph....

agreed with me in the second....

and then played another semantics game in the third virtually agreeing with me.....

[JohnDoe]

you played a semantics game in the first paragraph....

agreed with me in the second....

and then played another semantics game in the third virtually agreeing with me.....



Hahahahahahaha! you have to admit, that takes some talent to accomplish!!!! ;)

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

jd

ps. yes, I am agreeing with you, to a degree!!! lol

[Abbey Marie]

Your own country does not consider abortion murder. If you feel so strongly I would think you would want to move to a country which agrees with you?

You appear to feel even more strongly about President Bush being our CIC and the war in Iraq. Yet, here you still are.

[Abbey Marie]

Our "country" has never decided anything about abortion except the partial-birth abortion BAN. A few judges on the Supreme Court decided it for America. The liberals are way too afraid to let the American people decide on the issue.

:clap: So true, yet so often overlooked.

[JohnDoe]

:clap: So true, yet so often overlooked.

so, if you agree that this belongs to the sstates and not the feds, then why is it that conservatives wnat to elect supreme court judges to make abortion illegal? Please explain this quest of conservatives if they believe the supreme court should not be making decisions on this... like partial birth abortion? Ddoesn't that ALSO belong to the states or the people?

Also, could you contribute to your opinion regarding abortion so I can know where you stand on this thread? Is it murder as your conservative counterparts say? Is there concern regarding what causes abortions andd how to reduce them?

Also, 26 states had abortion legal before roe v wade, would that be conssidered a vote of the people?

thanks ;)

jd

[Immanuel]

so, if you agree that this belongs to the sstates and not the feds, then why is it that conservatives wnat to elect supreme court judges to make abortion illegal? Please explain this quest of conservatives if they believe the supreme court should not be making decisions on this... like partial birth abortion? Ddoesn't that ALSO belong to the states or the people?



I think you are wrong here.

Conservatives want judges in the USSC who will read the Constitution as it is written. That will put abortion back into the hands of the states. Liberals have fought tooth and nail to keep it in the federal government's hands because there it is easier for them to control.

Liberals understand that when abortion goes to the states they will not be able to dictate to the country any longer. States will regulate it and restrict it. Liberals want no part of that.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

well, if it isn't that, feel free to explain the real reason you want to kill children.....
You need to explain why YOU do not want to address the issues and things that actually cause abortions to continue first? Does it get in the way of all of the conservaatives on this board? your male buddies, so you are afraid to address the REAL ISSUES when it comes to unwanted pregnancies?

I mean, what is it that you are afraid to address regarding God's word on this Prophet? you want cast stones without examining yourself or those that you associate with....

there is only one person on this board that I have seen that has expressed his concern on this issue and seems to walk the walk ...that the Bible teaches on this issue and that is Avatar....imo.

You, on the otherhand seem to jusst blow over what is caausing abortionss and what actually can be done to reduce this kind of killing...and stand firm on throwing your stone.... hey, you may be sinless, and have no self evaluation that needs to be done.... I will remain open to this...and believe you if you state such, but as it appears, you want to stop the abortion but couldn't give 2 hoots about the rest of God's word on sex outside of marriage....WHICH IS WHAT CAUSES the unwanted pregnancies, thus the abortions...theree has been no condemnation by you of such, that I have seen...therefore, I don't believe you regarding your concern on abortions....sorry, I may be wrong, but this is how it appears to me PMP.

eeveryone seems to be tiptoeing through the tulips on the root reasons for abortions imho. :(

jd

[JohnDoe]

I think you are wrong here.

Conservatives want judges in the USSC who will read the Constitution as it is written. That will put abortion back into the hands of the states. Liberals have fought tooth and nail to keep it in the federal government's hands because there it is easier for them to control.

Liberals understand that when abortion goes to the states they will not be able to dictate to the country any longer. States will regulate it and restrict it. Liberals want no part of that.

ImmieDoes partial birth abortion bill ring a bell...?

[Abbey Marie]

so, if you agree that this belongs to the sstates and not the feds, then why is it that conservatives wnat to elect supreme court judges to make abortion illegal? Please explain this quest of conservatives if they believe the supreme court should not be making decisions on this... like partial birth abortion? Ddoesn't that ALSO belong to the states or the people?

Also, could you contribute to your opinion regarding abortion so I can know where you stand on this thread? Is it murder as your conservative counterparts say? Is there concern regarding what causes abortions andd how to reduce them?

Also, 26 states had abortion legal before roe v wade, would that be conssidered a vote of the people?

thanks ;)

jd


JD, you can demand wholesale all over the place answers of people, but that does not mean you will get responses. And frankly, if you cannot tell where I stand on abortion by now, you just aren't paying attention.

As for your first question, I will answer that because it is responsive to my post. Though it's so obvious, it's almost silly to answer it. Oh well, here goes anyway.

Conservatives want to elect SC justices to overturn Roe v. Wade because: that is what is necessary under the screwed-up state of our judiciary to end abortion on demand in this country. Have you never heard of working within the system to effect change? What do you think we should do instead? Bomb abortion clinics? Riot? Go around chanting, "Nah nah, we don't believe in the SC"? Take over states and secede?

[Immanuel]

Does partial birth abortion bill ring a bell...?

What does that have anything to do with it?

Conservatives still want judges that will put abortion back in the hands of the states. Just because they didn't have that at that time doesn't mean that they were sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for competent judges.

It is liberals that want to obstruct the Constitution in this case.

Come to think of it, we still don't have enough Justices to put it back to the states. Even the two new onces have not put out any effort to do so. So do you think we should just sit on our thumbs and wait?

Immie

[Pale Rider]

...and what actually can be done to reduce this kind of killing...

So you DO believe abortion is "murder."

[JohnDoe]

JD, you can demand wholesale all over the place answers of people, but that does not mean you will get responses. And frankly, if you cannot tell where I stand on abortion by now, you just aren't paying attention.

As for your first question, I will answer that because it is responsive to my post. Though it's so obvious, it's almost silly to answer it. Oh well, here goes anyway.

Conservatives want to elect SC justices to overturn Roe v. Wade because: that is what is necessary under the screwed-up state of our judiciary to end abortion on demand in this country. Have you never heard of working within the system to effect change? What do you think we should do instead? Bomb abortion clinics? Riot? Go around chanting, "Nah nah, we don't believe in the SC"? Take over states and secede?

maybe I missed it? I don't know how you stand on whether abortion is murder or not and I do not know where you stand on what you think causes so many of them or what can be done to reduce them, without pulling the supreme court in to it?????

were the Democrats working within the system with the supreme court when rove v wade came up or was that something different as to what you mentioned the conservatives just want to do?

jd

[JohnDoe]

So you DO believe abortion is "murder."

No Pale, I personally do not believe it is murder, as defined by law.

I do not believe it is murder define by God either, and I have posted the text from the Scripture that supports this stancee of mine.

I do believe it is killling an unborn child....just the medical procedure alone's name for the act, tells it all...TOP, Termination of pregnancy.... you can't "terminate" a living organism without killing it.

jd

[Immanuel]

No Pale, I personally do not believe it is murder, as defined by law.

I do not believe it is murder define by God either, and I have posted the text from the Scripture that supports this stancee of mine.

I do believe it is killling an unborn child....just the medical procedure alone's name for the act, tells it all...TOP, Termination of pregnancy.... you can't "terminate" a living organism without killing it.

jd

For the record, I know JD knows this, but the rest of you don't, I won't use the word murder either.

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being with the intention of killing.

Unfortunately, under our current legal system abortion is lawful, therefore, abortion cannot be termed murder. However, that does not mean for one second that I believe it to be moral in any manner.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

to address the REAL ISSUES
to the contrary....dead children ARE the real issues of abortion......

[PostmodernProphet]

I mean, what is it that you are afraid to address regarding God's word on this Prophet?

God's word?.....you think God's word favors abortion?....when Christ said "Suffer the little children to be brought unto me" he wasn't talking about abortion.....

[PostmodernProphet]

You, on the otherhand seem to jusst blow over what is caausing abortionss and what actually can be done to reduce this kind of killing...

shucks, that doesn't hold a candle to your approach, which seems to be, "we don't have to deal with abortion, because people want to have sex".......the two issues are not related.......billions of people have sex every day who don't have abortions.....simply because someone wants to have sex is no reason to demand that people be allowed to kill their children.....

[PostmodernProphet]

WHICH IS WHAT CAUSES the unwanted pregnancies, thus the abortions...

are you under some silly preconception that all abortions are obtained by women who aren't married?.....or perhaps you just assume the only way to avoid having an unwanted child is an abortion....either way, your response is too silly for consideration......

[theHawk]

I believe it is your translation that is wrong and it is my understanding that only recently have people tried to change the translation to say delivers prematurely".

........

So I respectfully disagree and this is twisting of scripture by others to make it mean what this person contends, that the meaning was delivered prematurely instead of miscarried.

jd

LOL, "twisting of scripture"? Please. First of all, the information I got was from Hebrew linguists. You're dead wrong if you think that the English translation is always the most accurate. Quite often when words are translated different meanings come into play. Sometimes its nearly impossible to translate certain words from one language to another. You simply want to dismiss the true meaning of the original text, because it suits your politcial views. I think I'll trust the opinion of the linguists who understand the difficulties of translating over you. :laugh2:

[Abbey Marie]

Using scripture to defend abortion? That is a new low!

Btw, just to be fair, I read the scripture that purportedly justifies it. It's not there.

[JohnDoe]

God's word?.....you think God's word favors abortion?....when Christ said "Suffer the little children to be brought unto me" he wasn't talking about abortion.....
No Pmp, I happen to be Prolife. You are wayyyyyyyyy jumping to conclusions, as with everyone else on this thread, with the exceptioon of Immanuel, who knows what I am talking about, for the MOST part, but not all.

jd

[theHawk]

Using scripture to defend abortion? That is a new low!

Btw, just to be fair, I read the scripture that purportedly justifies it. It's not there.

And what's funny is that the meaning of the original text is the complete opposite of what he and his ilk are trying push.

[JohnDoe]

I can agree with you to some point. Conservatives in Washington, if there is such a thing, have done nothing at all to stop abortions. Whenever there are proposals that might actually help to do so, Washington conservatives raise a stink about it, sometimes for good reason, such as not allowing public schools to give out condoms and birth control to 11 year olds at other times the reasons are... manufactured at best.

Conservatives and liberals need to work together to do whatever it takes to eliminate most (preferably all) abortions. If that means compromising to allow sex education to teach about condoms AND the benefits of abstinance then so be it! If it means welfare for unwed mothers then doggone it, so be it.

The pride of the conservative movement is preventing it from compromising with the left to reduce abortions. Pride cometh before a fall or is it pride goeth before a fall. :dunno:

But you are wrong when you blame all conservatives just as I would be wrong if I blamed all liberals. Yes, both conservatives and liberals can end up in a crisis pregnancy. That is just the way life is, but it IS the radicals of both sides that are to blame.

Immie

first, well said. It is nice to see a conservative think outside of the box and thinking of other ways to stop the killing of the unborn.

EXCEPT where you say I blame all conservatives. Please supply a post number where I did that Immie.... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!! ;)

jd

[JohnDoe]

Using scripture to defend abortion? That is a new low!

Btw, just to be fair, I read the scripture that purportedly justifies it. It's not there.
My , my....hmmmmm? Jumping to conclusions aren't you?

I NEVER SAID that this scripture justifies abortion!

I saiid that this scripture justifies that it is not "murder" in my opiniion.

(See abbey, it is you that has these inner "negative" feelings towards me....and you show it with your posts. That's ok, I still luv ya anyway... ;) )

jd

[Abbey Marie]

My , my....hmmmmm? Jumping to conclusions aren't you?

I NEVER SAID that this scripture justifies abortion!

I saiid that this scripture justifies that it is not "murder" in my opiniion.

(See abbey, it is you that has these inner "negative" feelings towards me....and you show it with your posts. That's ok, I still luv ya anyway... ;) )

jd

Seriously, JD, it's not personal. It vexes me when any fellow Christrian tries to justify sinful behavior to support a liberal agenda. It's a form of moral relativism, IMO. And regardless of how you parse it now, you did use scripture to justify abortion as it stands today in the U.S.

I realize that it is difficult for a true Bible-believing Christian to be a Dem, as the party's platform often goes against scripture. There is a solution: leave the dark side and join us. :)

[JohnDoe]

Seriously, JD, it's not personal. It vexes me when any fellow Christrian tries to justify sinful behavior to support a liberal agenda. It's a form of moral relativism, IMO. And regardless of how you parse it now, you did use scripture to justify abortion as it stands today in the U.S.

I realize that it is difficult for a true Bible-believing Christian to be a Dem, as the party's platform often goes against scripture. There is a solution: leave the dark side and join us. :)Both political sides are the Dark Side Abbey.... this is why politics and religion do not mix, in my opinioon.

And I am not justifying anything, I just want to further the discussioon on how to reduce abortions. I believe that they will continue at the same rate, even if this goes back to the states, as you all wish.... the 26 states or whatever the states that would have it legal would just end up getting the girls from the states that don't have it illegall....that's all Abbey....

So I think taking a comprehensive approach...to this siduation and evaluating how this all came to be.... and getting to the ROOT of where in God's name did we "go wrong" to get us to the point where abortion is just a common procedure.....

And my analysis of this, brings me to "sex, outside of marriage, or sex, in an adultry type situation" can lead to the woman being left alone to deliver and reaar this child and she gets afraid and makes a bad decision. Of course this IS NOT all of the abortion cases, but it is the majority of cases where girls or young women, make this decisioon to abort their future child.

Then I thought, why did the estimated abortions increase each year for the longest of times? And all I could come to, since the pill had been made readily available to women, is that more and more women were not "waiting" to give up their virginity with marriage, thus more "mistakes" happened.... because millions oof women weere jooinning this sexual revolution... could be oone of the reasons....

And all of this also lead to the discussion I tried to put forth on this board about the responsibilty OF THE MAN in all of this.... it does take 2 to tango...yet this iis NEVER, EVER discussed by the men on ANY of the message boards that I participate in....

They coulld near STOP abortioonss tomorrow, if they diid not have sex before marriage and if they diid not sin and fornicate themselves.... if they stopped being Adams...enticed by the woman...I can even give them that benefit of the doubt.

And what I do know is that the women of today ARE TAKING MORE AND MORE RESPONSIBILITY for this sex outside of marriage and are having their babies. More than 44% or the babies born in America today are born to SINGLLE MOTHERS, no daddies in sight...(that is exagerating, there are probably a few daddies but not many)...

WHERE aree the men in this whole picture? Still unzipping their pants and still getting women pregnant and NOT EVEN STANDING BY HER SSIDE, not even marrying her when she decides that she is going to do the right thing, and not abort her and her boyfriend's child, and deliver and raise it? 44% of the babies boorn to unwed mothers abbey? This iis just uncomprehendable to me that it could be so hiigh?

Again, where are the men and what can they do do help reduce unwanted pregnancies?

I just think there is so much more to be discussed and brought up and considered that could actually reduce the number of the unborn that aare killed each year.

The woman's lack of self worth is another plagueing thing that allows her get pregnant in the first place too...again, imo.


I am sorry for this being so long....it is meant for the whole board, not just you abbey...

This is a topic that immanuel and I have discussed is such depth on other boards and is an imprtant issue to not only him, as he said when he first sstarted, but to me allso....

I think we can do more, and relying on the gvt to change peoples "hearts" on this just ain't gonna happen.... this begins at home and how our children are reared, and the girl acheiving a sense of self worth and boys leearning how to abstain, and men learning how to own up to their part in getting the woman pregnant and standing by her side when sshe chooses to have his chilld and not abort it.


jd

[Abbey Marie]

I was referring earlier to your scriptural justification, and never addressed any of these issues with you. I can't say I disagree with your post above.

[JohnDoe]

And what's funny is that the meaning of the original text is the complete opposite of what he and his ilk are trying push.

John Doe, is Jane Doe's alias.... I am a she not a he...

Oh, and I am not an "ilk" of any sort, I am an individual! (But go ahead and insult all you like, I got tough skin in my older age) :slap:

One of a kind, in fact! And I got DNA to prove it!!!!

:D

jd

[PostmodernProphet]

sex, outside of marriage, or sex, in an adultry type situation

.....we can't even get the vast majority of people in the US to realize that it is wrong to kill children, and you think the path to the solution is to get them to realize it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage?.....

[Missileman]

You ask that as though you didn't read one word of what I said, even though you quoted it.

Go back, read it again, then get back to me with a question that sounds like you read what I said.

I asked it because your argument has a couple problems.

1. The majority of Democrats(and therefore liberals)are Christian also.

2. Atheists can't possibly account for a majority of abortions, there aren't enough of them.

3. You assume a correlation between atheist and liberal with absolutely no foundation.

[Immanuel]

Let me confirm that JD and I have discussed her issues many times and I will say that she is right in what she said about responsibility although in that long winded rant it seemed to me that she did a lot of blaming men while making women out to be victims. j/k JD! To stop abortions we are going to have to take a different approach and I hate to say it, but that might require both sides to give a bit. Both sides? I meant, Republicans and Democrats but maybe I should throw in male and female as well?

I will say that during this thread, I did wonder if she had gone over to THE DARK SIDE. :dev: I'm glad to see that she was just trying to make a point as poorly as it seemed she was doing at it.

JD, I don't think that what you predict about the 26 states will happen. A lot has changed in the 30 plus years since Roe was decided. Heck, even Jane Roe came into the light! I think that if this were to go to a vote in each of the 50 states you will find every state voting for at least some kind of regulations and that abortions will be curbed to some extent. And you are wrong, the fact that it takes two to tango is discussed on the boards. Let me remind you, that when men discuss abortion they are told by women to STFU it is none of their business. How many times have I been told that on these boards? 1,000 at least.

Something else that I believe. We cannot depend upon our politicians to curb abortions. It is evident that the vast majority of Democrats are "pro-choice" and heavily supported by the abortion industry. They have no desire to bring an end to this horror. What may not be so evident to some is that the Republicans are in the same boat. They get a heck of a lot of support from the "Religious Right" and they have no intention of giving up their "base". Abortion is going to have to be defeated by the grass roots of America and as I imagine dmp will remind me... things are only going to get worse before they get better.

Democrats and Republicans, Liberal and Conservative, if you really want to stop abortions, then quit fighting amongst yourselves and start fighting against the political establishment that has made abortion as common as setting a broken bone.

Just my humble opinions, take them for what they are worth... 1/2 cent. :laugh2:

Immie

[Missileman]

how could you have missed it?.....okay, I will repeat it very slowly.....

liberals support abortion.....conservatives oppose abortion.....abortion is killing children.....liberals support killing children....conservatives oppose killing children.....liberals support abortion because they want people to be free to kill their children without remorse....conservatives oppose abortion because they don't want people to be free to kill their children without remorse.....

the fact that a Republican had an abortion doesn't change any portion of the previous paragraph.....

did you miss it that time?.....if so, re-read the above until it sinks in.....

Abortion isn't "killing children" anymore than it's "killing adults".

[Missileman]

Also, 26 states had abortion legal before roe v wade, would that be conssidered a vote of the people?


Actually, abortion was only illegal in 1 state prior to Roe vs Wade. There were varying restrictions in the other 49.

[JohnDoe]

.....we can't even get the vast majority of people in the US to realize that it is wrong to kill children, and you think the path to the solution is to get them to realize it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage?.....

i suppose i just can not relate at all to your ''lukewarmness'' regarding the issue of fornication, or sex outside of marriage? How many times did the Bible mention this subject, compared to abortion or even killing?

you say you want to stop abortion, yet you are not willing to speak up as loudly about the lack in moral values that lead to the unwanted pregnancy of today's world?

your silence, and the silence of all on what has lead to abortion is not helping the matter imo, but only turning a blind eye and perpetuating the circumstances or silently supporting the circumstances in the left hand that lead to abortion, the unwanted pregnancy while the right hand is casting stones?

:dunno:

i am not trying to pick a fight here pmp, i am trying to understand what is really going on here?

boys and girls can continue F'ing all they want to who they want, as long as the girl doesn't have an abortion? That is the message i have gotten from you, and some other men on this board and i just want to make sure i am reading this ''right''? am I?

jd

[Said1]

DMP, show how the study is biased? Back up what you claim with some kind of facts instead of just opinion.

The reason Roe v Wade is backed by so many is the toll of illegal abortion on the comunnity. You are too young to remember the actual impact of of illegal abortion. It was a BIG part of the arguement at the time.

You didn't link the study either, just an op-ed that did in fact state that there are less abortions per live births in Africa, where abortion is illegal.

[manu1959]

You didn't link the study either, just an op-ed that did in fact state that there are less abortions per live births in Africa, where abortion is illegal.

she kicked her own ass yet again.....

[JohnDoe]

Let me confirm that JD and I have discussed her issues many times and I will say that she is right in what she said about responsibility although in that long winded rant it seemed to me that she did a lot of blaming men while making women out to be victims. j/k JD! To stop abortions we are going to have to take a different approach and I hate to say it, but that might require both sides to give a bit. Both sides? I meant, Republicans and Democrats but maybe I should throw in male and female as well?

I will say that during this thread, I did wonder if she had gone over to THE DARK SIDE. :dev: I'm glad to see that she was just trying to make a point as poorly as it seemed she was doing at it.

JD, I don't think that what you predict about the 26 states will happen. A lot has changed in the 30 plus years since Roe was decided. Heck, even Jane Roe came into the light! I think that if this were to go to a vote in each of the 50 states you will find every state voting for at least some kind of regulations and that abortions will be curbed to some extent. And you are wrong, the fact that it takes two to tango is discussed on the boards. Let me remind you, that when men discuss abortion they are told by women to STFU it is none of their business. How many times have I been told that on these boards? 1,000 at least.

Something else that I believe. We cannot depend upon our politicians to curb abortions. It is evident that the vast majority of Democrats are "pro-choice" and heavily supported by the abortion industry. They have no desire to bring an end to this horror. What may not be so evident to some is that the Republicans are in the same boat. They get a heck of a lot of support from the "Religious Right" and they have no intention of giving up their "base". Abortion is going to have to be defeated by the grass roots of America and as I imagine dmp will remind me... things are only going to get worse before they get better.

Democrats and Republicans, Liberal and Conservative, if you really want to stop abortions, then quit fighting amongst yourselves and start fighting against the political establishment that has made abortion as common as setting a broken bone.

Just my humble opinions, take them for what they are worth... 1/2 cent. :laugh2:

Immie



Tell us Immanuel, are you saying that abortion should stay legal and we should work towards reducing abortions through other more realistic changes? Is this what you are implying with several of your posts on the subject since you have been on this board?

And another thing, WHY DO YOU THINK abortions will be reduced if Roe v wade went back to the states and why do you think that girls will not just cross the state line to get their abortions? Maybe the impoverished girls will not be able to get the money to make the trip, so she will perhaps lead to the "back alley" but maybe she will have her child... I dunno?

If they are reduced as you say and these girls end up having their babies out of wedlock, (cuz they CERTAINLY ain't gonna stop F'ing, just like the guys ain't, ESPECIALLY if no one comes out and says such for "pc" reason, I guess?) what percentage of our children born will be without 2 parents in the picture? do you think that it will go from 45% to about 75% of the children born out of wedlock and destined to an impoverished life according to all statistics on this?

jd

[Said1]

she kicked her own ass yet again.....

I don't understand why she does that over and over and over.......

Then claims that concluding abortion is less frequent where illegal, (because that's what the opt-ed reported) is flawed logic based on cultural differences???

[Dilloduck]

i suppose i just can not relate at all to your ''lukewarmness'' regarding the issue of fornication, or sex outside of marriage? How many times did the Bible mention this subject, compared to abortion or even killing?

you say you want to stop abortion, yet you are not willing to speak up as loudly about the lack in moral values that lead to the unwanted pregnancy of today's world?

your silence, and the silence of all on what has lead to abortion is not helping the matter imo, but only turning a blind eye and perpetuating the circumstances or silently supporting the circumstances in the left hand that lead to abortion, the unwanted pregnancy while the right hand is casting stones?

:dunno:

i am not trying to pick a fight here pmp, i am trying to understand what is really going on here?

boys and girls can continue F'ing all they want to who they want, as long as the girl doesn't have an abortion? That is the message i have gotten from you, and some other men on this board and i just want to make sure i am reading this ''right''? am I?

jd



you say you want to stop abortion, yet you are not willing to speak up as loudly about the lack in moral values that lead to the unwanted pregnancy of today's world?

Sex that would lead to a woman being in a position to consider having an abortion can only occur if the woman legally consents ( let's not deal with the obvious exceptions right now ). Fair or not, are women not the "gatekeepers" and the ones who are not taking the "moral" or "legal" actions that are neccessary to prevent pregnancy?

[JohnDoe]

Actually, abortion was only illegal in 1 state prior to Roe vs Wade. There were varying restrictions in the other 49.
MM, I don't think so... I mean yes, you could be right as far as "in some manner" they had legalized abortion, because some states had it where it was legal to have an abortion if the girl was raped, as one example, but that does not mean that it was legal up to whatever, the 9th month of pregnancy!

I believe it was 26 states or therabouts that had legalized abortion at least through the 12th week of pregnancy.... some states had it where it was past the 12th week but not many.... and the other states as mentioned had it legal, but rare and limited to rape, incest, or mental reasons was my reading of it... of course this was about 3 years ago, so my memory could be off a little, but I am certain it was not 49 states allowing abortion basically on demand, up to 12 weeks.

jd

[Immanuel]

Tell us Immanuel, are you saying that abortion should stay legal and we should work towards reducing abortions through other more realistic changes? Is this what you are implying with several of your posts on the subject since you have been on this board?

Does making it illegal matter as much as reducing the number of children killed by this horrible institution?


And another thing, WHY DO YOU THINK abortions will be reduced if Roe v wade went back to the states and why do you think that girls will not just cross the state line to get their abortions? Maybe the impoverished girls will not be able to get the money to make the trip, so she will perhaps lead to the "back alley" but maybe she will have her child... I dunno?

Why? Because I believe most if not all states will restrict and regulate the industry. The abortion industry can control the politicians in the federal government. I don't believe they can control the state governments in the same manner. Maybe, I'm just being optimistic, but I think that the reason the industry fights so hard to keep this institution in the control of the federal government is because they know they can't control the American people and they will lose a lot of power WHEN this goes back to the state.


If they are reduced as you say and these girls end up having their babies out of wedlock, (cuz they CERTAINLY ain't gonna stop F'ing, just like the guys ain't, ESPECIALLY if no one comes out and says such for "pc" reason, I guess?) what percentage of our children born will be without 2 parents in the picture? do you think that it will go from 45% to about 75% of the children born out of wedlock and destined to an impoverished life according to all statistics on this?

So, it seems that you think killing them is the right answer? I have no idea what the percentage will be. Nor do I have a problem with addressing the sex out of wedlock question although if you think reducing abortions is an impossible task, just try stopping adults from screwing! :) Good luck.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

Sex that would lead to a woman being in a position to consider having an abortion can only occur if the woman legally consents ( let's not deal with the obvious exceptions right now ). Fair or not, are women not the "gatekeepers" and the ones who are not taking the "moral" or "legal" actions that are neccessary to prevent pregnancy?
Then let that be the case you seem to be making...Leave it to the status quo. She chooses what to do with her unborn child since she is the only gate keeper?

[Dilloduck]

Then let that be the case you seem to be making...Leave it to the status quo. She chooses what to do with her unborn child since she is the only gate keeper?

Im not making any case-----Isn't that just the reality of the situation ?

[PostmodernProphet]

Abortion isn't "killing children" anymore than it's "killing adults".

yeah, you just keep telling yourself that....won't make it true, but it may help you with the guilt.....

[manu1959]

so are you anti death penalty ?

[PostmodernProphet]

i suppose i just can not relate at all to your ''lukewarmness'' regarding the issue of fornication, or sex outside of marriage?

even God didn't prevent people from making stupid moral choices, and he had the power to......why do you think you have the right, let alone the ability to do it....

the best we can do is try to prevent them from killing others in the process.....

[PostmodernProphet]

so are you anti death penalty ?

if that is addressed to me, yes, I oppose the death penalty.....

[Immanuel]

even God didn't prevent people from making stupid moral choices, and he had the power to......why do you think you have the right, let alone the ability to do it....



Don't take this wrong, but couldn't that very same argument be used against those of us who think abortion is an abomination?

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

Don't take this wrong, but couldn't that very same argument be used against those of us who think abortion is an abomination?


does my choice kill a child?

[Immanuel]

does my choice kill a child?

No, at least I hope not, but that won't stop the enemy from using your argument against you.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

even God didn't prevent people from making stupid moral choices, and he had the power to......why do you think you have the right, let alone the ability to do it....

the best we can do is try to prevent them from killing others in the process.....

Ok. "God did not prevent people from making stupid moral choices.", is what you said.

What do you think abortion is, if it isn't a stupid moral choice?

Also, on the same tune that you are singing on this, God did not prevent his chosen people from killing either, did He?

Did he stop King David from killing Basheeba's husband? Did he stop Saul/Paul from persecuting and killing Christians?

(Just play along with me here PMP, I am being/playing the Devil's advocate, so to say....)



jd

[Missileman]

yeah, you just keep telling yourself that....won't make it true, but it may help you with the guilt.....

You calling a fetus a child is as assinine as calling a fetus an adult.

[Missileman]

MM, I don't think so... I mean yes, you could be right as far as "in some manner" they had legalized abortion, because some states had it where it was legal to have an abortion if the girl was raped, as one example, but that does not mean that it was legal up to whatever, the 9th month of pregnancy!

I believe it was 26 states or therabouts that had legalized abortion at least through the 12th week of pregnancy.... some states had it where it was past the 12th week but not many.... and the other states as mentioned had it legal, but rare and limited to rape, incest, or mental reasons was my reading of it... of course this was about 3 years ago, so my memory could be off a little, but I am certain it was not 49 states allowing abortion basically on demand, up to 12 weeks.

jd

I didn't say abortion on demand, I said abortion. There was only 1 state where abortion was illegal.

[PostmodernProphet]

What do you think abortion is, if it isn't a stupid moral choice?


do you understand my point, JD?....God could have created us incapable of making stupid moral choices.....he didn't....you cannot force people to make good moral choices.....but if a person's choice causes someone else to die, you have to make sure they don't have that choice.....you can't make the same arguement about having sex.....

[PostmodernProphet]

You calling a fetus a child is as assinine as calling a fetus an adult

pretending a fetus is NOT a child is as assinine as pretending water isn't H2O.....

[manu1959]

pretending a fetus is NOT a child is as assinine as pretending water isn't H2O.....

heavy water isn't h20 and a monkey fetus isn't a child.....

[JohnDoe]

even God didn't prevent people from making stupid moral choices, and he had the power to......why do you think you have the right, let alone the ability to do it....

the best we can do is try to prevent them from killing others in the process.....

doesn't God have the power to stop anything, as you say? Then why hasn't HE? why does He let us have free will at all? or is there no such thing as free will? has God put you in charge of the sins of others?

jd

ps. immie was right about this statement of yours, and the holes in it btw.

[diuretic]

sorry if you can't take the heat.....

I believe the original quote was "stink", as in, "if you can't stand the stink, get out of the toilet".

I can take the heat and the stink, I was just checking with you. From this I take it you were serious.

[PostmodernProphet]

heavy water isn't h20 and a monkey fetus isn't a child.....

good point.....but we aren't talking about heavy water and we aren't talking about monkies....

[PostmodernProphet]

doesn't God have the power to stop anything, as you say? Then why hasn't HE? why does He let us have free will at all? or is there no such thing as free will? has God put you in charge of the sins of others?


JD....if we take your approach and concentrate on sex instead of abortion, your post would be accurate....in fact, I will consider it your confession.....but there is a difference between "being in charge of the sins of others" and keeping people from killing other people while they do it......you can't keep people from drinking, but you can take away the driver's license of someone who drives while doing it

[Missileman]

pretending a fetus is NOT a child is as assinine as pretending water isn't H2O.....

I suppose you call the food you eat "shit" because that's what it eventually becomes too.

[PostmodernProphet]

I suppose you call the food you eat "shit" because that's what it eventually becomes too.


if I had to eat what you dish out, it's likely I would.....

[PostmodernProphet]

I believe the original quote was "stink", as in, "if you can't stand the stink, get out of the toilet".


the thought has been around a while....I expect the original might be traced back to something more like....."If you don't like tusks up your butt, don't stand next to the mastedons"......

[diuretic]

the thought has been around a while....I expect the original might be traced back to something more like....."If you don't like tusks up your butt, don't stand next to the mastedons"......

And I remember reading somewhere it was Socrates who is alleged to have given good publicity to the phrase "he thinks his shit doesn't stink", that's been around for a while too. Apologies for the necessary vulgarity.

[JohnDoe]

JD....if we take your approach and concentrate on sex instead of abortion, your post would be accurate....in fact, I will consider it your confession.....but there is a difference between "being in charge of the sins of others" and keeping people from killing other people while they do it......you can't keep people from drinking, but you can take away the driver's license of someone who drives while doing itExcuse me? Confession to WHAT, pmp?

There is no difference pmp, one is the cause, and the other is the effect.

If you can't stand up and speak out against the cause, then you should expect the same effect! Simple as that.

If you don't plant the seed, the flower won't grow.

Not speaking out against the cause, while freaking out over the effect, is nothing less than Hypocritical imo, and does nothing to save those lives that you say, you actually care about, again, imho.

jd

[truthmatters]

If your aim is the least amount of deaths there is but one choice.

Illegal or legal there is not much change in the loss except when you consider the deaths of the mothers in illegally performed abortions.

Anyone who truely wants to cause the least amount of death and human pain have only one choice. This is why it is currently legal in most developed nations.

[Dilloduck]

If your aim is the least amount of deaths there is but one choice.

Illegal or legal there is not much change in the loss except when you consider the deaths of the mothers in illegally performed abortions.

Anyone who truely wants to cause the least amount of death and human pain have only one choice. This is why it is currently legal in most developed nations.

Abstinence ?

[JohnDoe]

Abstinence ?No, I don't think that is what Truthmatters is saying, she is keeping with the article and saying that abortions will occur with or without it being legal, only with it illegal, more of the pregnant girls will be killed because of the unsafe and unclean measures they will take to have the abortion....

jd

[Immanuel]

No, I don't think that is what Truthmatters is saying, she is keeping with the article and saying that abortions will occur with or without it being legal, only with it illegal, more of the pregnant girls will be killed because of the unsafe and unclean measures they will take to have the abortion....

jd

And Dilloduck was saying that abstinence works very well. TM was stating the only way to reduce abortion deaths was with legalized killing while Dilloduck was commenting on the very well known fact that abstinence works very well. At least that is what I think Dilloduck was saying.

But, liberals will tell you abstinence doesn't work. {sigh}

Immie

[JohnDoe]

And Dilloduck was saying that abstinence works very well. TM was stating the only way to reduce abortion deaths was with legalized killing while Dilloduck was commenting on the very well known fact that abstinence works very well. At least that is what I think Dilloduck was saying.

But, liberals will tell you abstinence doesn't work. {sigh}

ImmieNow of course, I don't know for certain that abstinence is what Dillo was suggesting as a way to solve the problem.... I think he was just trying to figure out what truth matters meant by her comment, based on other comments Dillo has made on this subject since I have been on this board, I don't believe he thinks that abstinence is a viable sollution, as with most of the other men on this board, other than Avatar, and perhaps you.

jd

[Dilloduck]

Now of course, I don't know for certain that abstinence is what Dillo was suggesting as a way to solve the problem.... I think he was just trying to figure out what truth matters meant by her comment, based on other comments Dillo has made on this subject since I have been on this board, I don't believe he thinks that abstinence is a viable sollution, as with most of the other men on this board, other than Avatar, and perhaps you.

jd

no--abstinance would no doubt cause the least pregnancy related deaths and it's legal all over the world.

[JohnDoe]

no--abstinance would no doubt cause the least pregnancy related deaths and it's legal all over the world.Well then, that we can agree on.

jd

[Immanuel]

But all of that goes back to what JD was saying in the first place. The best way to address the abortion problem is to address the issue that brings women to the clinics in the first place and that is sex out of wedlock. The longer we ignore that, the more human beings will die to abortion, both mothers and their unborn children.

Immie

[PostmodernProphet]

Excuse me? Confession to WHAT, pmp?


wanting to be in charge of the sins of others.....

[Missileman]

no--abstinance would no doubt cause the least pregnancy related deaths and it's legal all over the world.

Except for the fact that humans are highly-sexual beings who don't abstain. Belief that abstinence can solve the abortion problem isn't grounded in reality. Which leads back to reducing the number of abortions via the realistic expectation of the use of contraception.

[darin]

Except for the fact that humans are highly-sexual beings who don't abstain. Belief that abstinence can solve the abortion problem isn't grounded in reality. Which leads back to reducing the number of abortions via the realistic expectation of the use of contraception.

Except for the fact a LOT of humans abstain. Humans without discipline, wisdom, or self-control, however, may not. Belief we can solve the un-wanted preg. problem through contraception and abortion isn't realistic.

[Missileman]

Except for the fact a LOT of humans abstain. Humans without discipline, wisdom, or self-control, however, may not. Belief we can solve the un-wanted preg. problem through contraception and abortion isn't realistic.

I'll wager you can't come up with much more than a handful of people, 18 or older, that you know who were or still are virgins until marriage. Your claim that LOTs of people abstain is fantasy.

[manu1959]

I'll wager you can't come up with much more than a handful of people, 18 or older, that you know who were or still are virgins until marriage. Your claim that LOTs of people abstain is fantasy.

i know dozens...they all belong to the church i go to...

[Missileman]

i know dozens...they all belong to the church i go to...

I've got some ocean-front property that I'm letting go dirt cheap...interested?

[manu1959]

I've got some ocean-front property that I'm letting go dirt cheap...interested?

don't you mean sand cheap......

you don't believe me....

[Dilloduck]

Except for the fact that humans are highly-sexual beings who don't abstain. Belief that abstinence can solve the abortion problem isn't grounded in reality. Which leads back to reducing the number of abortions via the realistic expectation of the use of contraception.

Well these highly-sexual beings also have brains and can use them. There are ways to have sex that do not involve intercourse if it's that overpowering of a drive. Knowing that you will be held responsible for creating a child actually DOES make some have second thoughts. Is a pregnancy really MORE horrific than abortion? THAT is really the issue. Something is wrong with a society that refuses to take responsiblilty for its own. Teach contraception AND the consequences of them failing.

[Immanuel]

Well these highly-sexual beings also have brains and can use them. There are ways to have sex that do not involve intercourse if it's that overpowering of a drive. Knowing that you will be held responsible for creating a child actually DOES make some have second thoughts. Is a pregnancy really MORE horrific than abortion? THAT is really the issue. Something is wrong with a society that refuses to take responsiblilty for its own. Teach contraception AND the consequences of them failing.

I completely agree.

It is not the idea of telling people not to have sex or even sex out of wedlock but our society has lost even the hint that sex out of wedlock is taboo. Just look at our "entertainment" and advertising. They sell sex 24/7. Sexual freedom is promoted not frowned upon.

Now days kids are taught that there must be something wrong with them if they have not gotten laid by the age of 15.

If we went back to the times when sex wasn't a requirement the number abortions might just drop again. Pre-marital sex used to be wrong, now it is wrong if you are not having it or not having an afair.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

I completely agree.

It is not the idea of telling people not to have sex or even sex out of wedlock but our society has lost even the hint that sex out of wedlock is taboo. Just look at our "entertainment" and advertising. They sell sex 24/7. Sexual freedom is promoted not frowned upon.

Now days kids are taught that there must be something wrong with them if they have not gotten laid by the age of 15.

If we went back to the times when sex wasn't a requirement the number abortions might just drop again. Pre-marital sex used to be wrong, now it is wrong if you are not having it or not having an afair.

Immie

Being married does not stop abortion.

[Immanuel]

Being married does not stop abortion.

I didn't say it did, but there would be a heck of a lot fewer abortions if sex were restricted to the marriage bed.

Immie

[Missileman]

[QUOTE=Dilloduck;148366 Teach contraception AND the consequences of them failing.[/QUOTE]

I agree.