Jesus was a rebel

[TheSage]

Jesus was a total rebel against the powerful forces of his day. You neocons extolling the virtues of the worldy satanic hierarchy should reconsider your options.



http://www.tamilnation.org/forum/sachisrikantha/jesus.htm

So much has been written about this Jewish rebel by so many in so different contexts. I found, how Bernard Shaw described the activities of this Bethlehem rebel quite refreshing in many ways share with. Wrote Shaw:

"Jesus was from the point of view of the High Priest a heretic and an impostor. From the point of view of the merchants he was a rioter and a Communist. From the Roman Imperialist point of view he was a traitor. From the common sense point of view he was a dangerous mad man. From the snobbish point of view, always a very influential one, he was a penniless vagrant.

"From the police point of view he was an obstructer of thoroughfares, a beggar, an associate of prostitutes, an apologist of sinners, and a disparager of judges; and his daily companions were tramps whom he had seduced into vagabondage from their regular trades. From the point of view of the pious he was a Sabbath breaker, a denier of the efficacy of circumcision and the advocate of a strange rite of baptism, a gluttonous man and a wine bibber. He was abhorrent to the medical profession as an unqualified practitioner who healed people by quackery and charged nothing for the treatment.

"He was against the priests, against the judiciary, against the military, against the city (he declared that it was impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven), against all the interests, classes, principalities and powers, inviting everybody to abandon all these and follow him.

"By every argument, legal, political, religious, customary and polite, he was the most complete enemy of the society of his time ever brought to the bars He was guilty on every count of the indictment, and on many more that his accusers had not the wit to frame. If he was innocent then the whole world was guilty. To acquit him was to throw over Civilisation and all its institutions. History has borne out the case against him; for no State has ever constituted itself on his principles or made it possible to live according to his commandments."

[darin]

Jesus was a total rebel against the powerful forces of his day. You neocons extolling the virtues of the worldy satanic hierarchy should reconsider your options.

However he was NOT rebelling against Jewish LAW/TEACHINGS...only the "leaders" who were corrupting God's message. Fight your fight against the Pharasees of the day - NOT the old testament.


"He was against the priests, against the judiciary, against the military, against the city (he declared that it was impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven), against all the interests, classes, principalities and powers, inviting everybody to abandon all these and follow him.

That's got some lies there...Jesus never declared it was 'impossible' for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. If the auther can't get THAT bit right, he has no credibility speaking of Christ.

[TheSage]

However he was NOT rebelling against Jewish LAW/TEACHINGS...only the "leaders" who were corrupting God's message. Fight your fight against the Pharasees of the day - NOT the old testament.


They were corrupting god's message with the jewish laws. These are not the old testament laws, these are the talmud laws, elitism and racism. Get educated please.

[TheSage]

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/cgi-bin/tw/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine36&item=1115662605
The scribes among the Pharisees created and transmitted the Pharisaic rabbinical traditions. The body of traditional law that they formulated, called the Halakah (preserved in the Mishnah), is extra-biblical. Although authoritative for Jews who follow Pharisaic tradition, much of the Halakah is not directly supported by Scripture, but is intended as a "hedge" about the law, to prevent any possibility of its being broken.
Ironically, in an attempt to ensure their law-keeping by putting a "hedge" about the law, the Pharisees were breaking the law, for God had said: "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2; also 12:32). By adding the weight of their tradition to the law of God, they bound "heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders" (Matthew 23:4).
The Pharisees placed the authority of their traditions above that of Scripture itself, thus going against the word of God. Scripture scholar Joachim Jeremias affirms that for the Pharisees, the oral tradition was "above the Torah," and that the esoteric writings containing scribal teachings were regarded as inspired and surpassing the canonical books "in value and sanctity" (Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, pp. 236, 238–239). Alfred Edersheim also points out that traditional law was of "even greater obligation than Scripture itself" (The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Book I, 1.98).


The oral tradition is today known as the talmud.

[KarlMarx]

Jesus wasn't here to change the world, but to save Man from sin.

He was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets, not the anti-thesis of it.

Matthew 5:17-19: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

The first true rebel was, and still is, Lucifer or Satan. Because he rebelled against God's rule, he is condemned to eternal damnation, just as all who follow him.

Christianity does not advocate rebellion for the sake of rebellion. Render unto Caesar those things of Caesar and unto God those things of God. In other words, obey the law, unless it contradicts Christian teaching.

I think if you look, you'll notice that the Pharisees and the priests were trying to preserve the status quo. They seem very much like the Democrats and liberals of today, who resist anything that threatens to change their beloved Social Security, big government programs, abortion on demand, and taxation.

[5stringJeff]

Jesus was a total rebel against the powerful forces of his day. You neocons extolling the virtues of the worldy satanic hierarchy should reconsider your options.

If he was innocent then the whole world was guilty.

Indeed, he was innocent (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%207:26-27;&version=47;), and the whole world is guilty (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:9;&version=47;).

[darin]

They were corrupting god's message with the jewish laws. These are not the old testament laws, these are the talmud laws, elitism and racism. Get educated please.

Don't have to be a dick, do you? Was Jesus ever a dick to people? Not to common-folk..ever.

Right - But God's message IS valid - even the message to the Jews. That was Jesus' point. He wasn't mad at Judism - he was mad at the sinners LEADING it.

[TheSage]

Don't have to be a dick, do you? Was Jesus ever a dick to people? Not to common-folk..ever.

Right - But God's message IS valid - even the message to the Jews. That was Jesus' point. He wasn't mad at Judism - he was mad at the sinners LEADING it.


God's message. Not the message of the Oral tradition, as it's called.

[Dilloduck]

Don't have to be a dick, do you? Was Jesus ever a dick to people? Not to common-folk..ever.

Right - But God's message IS valid - even the message to the Jews. That was Jesus' point. He wasn't mad at Judism - he was mad at the sinners LEADING it.

I guess he still is cause it hasnt' changed much.

[TheSage]

Indeed, he was innocent (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%207:26-27;&version=47;), and the whole world is guilty (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%203:9;&version=47;).

I liked that sentence too.

[5stringJeff]

God's message. Not the message of the Oral tradition, as it's called.

So what's your point? That the Talmud isn't Scripture? You won't get many arguments there.

[darin]

God's message. Not the message of the Oral tradition, as it's called.

(sigh).

Whatever helps you sleep. Seriously. Find Peace.

[TheSage]

(sigh).

Whatever helps you sleep. Seriously. Find Peace.

Ok. King of the girls.

[TheSage]

So what's your point? That the Talmud isn't Scripture? You won't get many arguments there.

Most people seem ignorant of the distinction, actually.

[Nienna]

Jesus lived a life of total submission. He was not a rebel. Suppose a sergeant told a private to drop and do 50, and then a general walked by and said to go peel potatoes. The private gets up and heads to Dfac. Is the private in rebellion? No, he is obeying a higher authority.

Jesus had no rebellion in his heart. His actions toward the Jewish leaders were aimed at restoring rightful authority, not rebelling. The Jewish leaders were in rebellion, not Jesus.


(Jason, this smiley is for YOU... :coffee: )

[TheSage]

Jesus lived a life of total submission. He was not a rebel. Suppose a sergeant told a private to drop and do 50, and then a general walked by and said to go peel potatoes. The private gets up and heads to Dfac. Is the private in rebellion? No, he is obeying a higher authority.

Jesus had no rebellion in his heart. His actions toward the Jewish leaders were aimed at restoring rightful authority, not rebelling. The Jewish leaders were in rebellion, not Jesus.


(Jason, this smiley is for YOU... :coffee: )


Word games. One can submit to one thing while rebelling against another.

[Nienna]

Word games. One can submit to one thing while rebelling against another.

Whatever.

[TheSage]

Whatever.


No. Not whatever. He was very clearly a rebel, by any defintion of the word.

[Nienna]

No. Not whatever. He was very clearly a rebel, by any defintion of the word.

Jesus was against no man. THEY were against him.

You cannot have rebellion without authority. Jesus' authority was so much greater than that of the Jewish leaders that it is an insult to Him to call Him a rebel.

[darin]

No. Not whatever. He was very clearly a rebel, by any defintion of the word.

dude - you're wrong in this sense: You want him to be a Rebel so it makes YOU feel better about going against EVERY Grain you want. You feel like you can identify him; like God has set YOU apart from all others as the Champion of HIS cause.

Dude - I pray for you more than anyone I've met online. You CAN get through these clouds of conspiracy and shadows. It's SO easy - Christs' message. The plan is SIMPLE and ANYONE can come to know God. There's NO need for hidden meanings, worry of false-teachings (when the bible is available to everyone), or stress.

DID Jesus rebel against the Pharasees? Okay. Sure. Do you wanna call him a "rebel" because of it? Sure. Enjoy that. The bottom line is "It doesnt matter."

[TheSage]

Jesus was against no man. THEY were against him.

You cannot have rebellion without authority. Jesus' authority was so much greater than that of the Jewish leaders that it is an insult to Him to call Him a rebel.

But in the society at the time, most people considered the pharisaic leaders to be the authority. You're still playing word games. He was a rebel.

[TheSage]

dude - you're wrong in this sense: You want him to be a Rebel so it makes YOU feel better about going against EVERY Grain you want. You feel like you can identify him; like God has set YOU apart from all others as the Champion of HIS cause.

Dude - I pray for you more than anyone I've met online. You CAN get through these clouds of conspiracy and shadows. It's SO easy - Christs' message. The plan is SIMPLE and ANYONE can come to know God. There's NO need for hidden meanings, worry of false-teachings (when the bible is available to everyone), or stress.

DID Jesus rebel against the Pharasees? Okay. Sure. Do you wanna call him a "rebel" because of it? Sure. Enjoy that. The bottom line is "It doesnt matter."


I will enjoy it. I am enjoying it. I love the truth.

[Nienna]

But in the society at the time, most people considered the pharisaic leaders to be the authority. You're still playing word games. He was a rebel.

It doesn't matter what "most people" think. It doesn't matter if "most people" consider Jesus to be a rebel. What matters it what is going on in that person's heart. Jesus lived a life of perfect submission. He said time and again, "I only go where the Father tells me to go, I only do what the Father tells me to do." There was NO rebellion in his heart.

[TheSage]

It doesn't matter what "most people" think. It doesn't matter if "most people" consider Jesus to be a rebel. What matters it what is going on in that person's heart. Jesus lived a life of perfect submission. He said time and again, "I only go where the Father tells me to go, I only do what the Father tells me to do." There was NO rebellion in his heart.

ANd the father told him to rebel against worldly authorities, because that's what he did. I call flipping over the tables of the money changers an act of rebellion, wouldn't you ? Never mind. Of course you wouldn't.

[darin]

I will enjoy it. I am enjoying it. I love the truth.



But who CARES?? IF you sleep better calling Jesus a rebel, that's fine.

As far as the 'truth'? You're buying into Website with CLEAR fundamental flaws in their teaching, and calling it truth?

wow.

[TheSage]

But who CARES?? IF you sleep better calling Jesus a rebel, that's fine.

As far as the 'truth'? You're buying into Website with CLEAR fundamental flaws in their teaching, and calling it truth?

wow.

No. Jesus was a rebel. He was raliroaded into capital punishment because of it.

Like, wow, man.

[darin]

I call flipping over the tables of the money changers an act of rebellion, wouldn't you ? Never mind. Of course you wouldn't.



And healing on the sabbath...and whatever else he did to open the eyes of the pharasees; but his goal was NOT to rebel - God did NOT call him to Rebel - that wasn't His purpose. His purpose was simple: To BE the way from Earth, to Heaven for all mankind.

During that process, some religious leaders got their feelings hurt. Fine.

[darin]

No. Jesus was a rebel. He was raliroaded into capital punishment because of it.

Do you feel you'll gain credibility by saying something loud and often?

Do you NOT understand that Jesus HAD to die? That His crucifixion is NOTHING to be upset over? Do you get that?

[TheSage]

And healing on the sabbath...and whatever else he did to open the eyes of the pharasees; but his goal was NOT to rebel - God did NOT call him to Rebel - that wasn't His purpose. His purpose was simple: To BE the way from Earth, to Heaven for all mankind.

During that process, some religious leaders got their feelings hurt. Fine.



But he DID rebel, it doesn't matter if he intended to. That's what he DID based on his inpiration from god.

[Nienna]

ANd the father told him to rebel against worldly authorities, because that's what he did. I call flipping over the tables of the money changers an act of rebellion, wouldn't you ? Never mind. Of course you wouldn't.

When we were teenagers, my mom found my little sister's Guns 'n' Roses tape. She listened to some of the lyrics, then she took it out to the garage and smashed it with a sledgehammer. Was my mom in rebellion against my little sister?

[darin]

But he DID rebel, it doesn't matter if he intended to. That's what he DID based on his inpiration from god.

Not true. He did not rebel, actually. He SUBMITTED to God. The WORLD calls him a REBEL, but believers call him Teacher; They call him The One Who Submitted to God and showes US how to do the Same - one who Fullfills the Law. And He took NO action based on inspiration from god - he took action because He IS God.

[TheSage]

Not true. He did not rebel, actually. He SUBMITTED to God. The WORLD calls him a REBEL, but believers call him Teacher; They call him The One Who Submitted to God and showes US how to do the Same - one who Fullfills the Law. And He took NO action based on inspiration from god - he took action because He IS God.


I call him rebel teacher, sue me.

He submitted to god and rebelled against the pharisees, simultaneously. It is possible and makes sense from a language accuracy point of view.

[Nienna]

No. Jesus was a rebel. He was raliroaded into capital punishment because of it.

Like, wow, man.

Jesus was NOT railroaded into capital punishment. He acknowledged his identity and the Roman troops FELL DOWN. Jesus SUBMITTED WILLINGLY to capital punishment.

[darin]

I call him rebel teacher, sue me.

That shows you don't understand His Message, brother. I don't want to SUE you - I want you to be free from your demons. I want you to know the peace and joy and love which comes from a REAL relationship with Christ Jesus. It HURTS me to see you chock-full of bitterness and rage and pride. When I see you focusing MORE on conspiracy and JEWS than you are on the Bible and Christ I feel pain. Literal and spiritual pain. I want to shake you and make you wake-up. I cannot. But HE can, if you let Him.

[TheSage]

Jesus was NOT railroaded into capital punishment. He acknowledged his identity and the Roman troops FELL DOWN. Jesus SUBMITTED WILLINGLY to capital punishment.


But he did rebel against the pharisees, hence, he's a rebel, against the pharisees.

[darin]

He submitted to god


To whom do YOU submit?

[Nienna]

Jason, what about post #30?

[TheSage]

To whom do YOU submit?

Whoever has the biggest jugs.

[TheSage]

When we were teenagers, my mom found my little sister's Guns 'n' Roses tape. She listened to some of the lyrics, then she took it out to the garage and smashed it with a sledgehammer. Was my mom in rebellion against my little sister?


Is your little sister a jew?

[Dilloduck]

When we were teenagers, my mom found my little sister's Guns 'n' Roses tape. She listened to some of the lyrics, then she took it out to the garage and smashed it with a sledgehammer. Was my mom in rebellion against my little sister?

Nope---she was pissed

[Nienna]

Is your little sister a jew?

No, and both my mom and my sister have "big jugs." So? Who is the authority?

[TheSage]

No, and both my mom and my sister have "big jugs." So? Who is the authority?


Well, your mother is rebelling against the modern standard that we should EXPOSE our kids to everything.

The real answer is "who wears the strap on?"

[Nienna]

Well, your mother is rebelling against the modern standard that we should EXPOSE our kids to everything.

The real answer is "who wears the strap on?"

I don't know what that means.

[TheSage]

I don't know what that means.


It means, "Jesus was a rebel"

[5stringJeff]

Nienna, don't worry about it. It was a crude comment, and frankly, Jason, out of line given the current topic.

[TheSage]

Nienna, don't worry about it. It was a crude comment, and frankly, Jason, out of line given the current topic.

It not out of line, it's inline. for it to be out of line, you would have to have authority over me.

[Gaffer]

I don't know what that means.

It means he's an immature spoiled moron. And he's NOT a stable person.

[TheSage]

It means he's an immature spoiled moron. And he's NOT a stable person.


I don't aspire to be stabble.

[5stringJeff]

It not out of line, it's inline. for it to be out of line, you would have to have authority over me.

Interesting that you would mention this. Jesus, being the Son of God, was not under the authority of human institution; His sole authority was God the Father (see John 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:19;&version=47;)). So Jesus could not rebel against the Pharisees, because they were not in authority over Him. He could only have rebelled against God, which He obviously did not do.

Therefore, using your argument about authority, Jesus was not a rebel.

[Hobbit]

There's a difference between a rebel and a revolutionary.

rebel: from latin rebellis: opposing or taking arms against a government or ruler

The Pharisees were not rulers. They were laymen. Being a Pharisee was, functionally, like being a Baptist. It was just another school of thought. When Jesus did deal with actual priests, his tone was that of calm understanding and teaching. He went to temple like everyone else. He obeyed all Jewish law written in the Torah and he obeyed all Roman laws. Until he had a large enough following that a small number of priests saw him as a threat, he was never at odds with any legitamite authority, just some legalistic laymen who wanted to prove themselves superior. Even when he was crucified, he was convicted under false testimony before a minority of priests who called a meeting in the middle of the night to keep their detractors from attending.

revolutionary: from latin revolvere: of, relating to, or constituting a revolution
revolution: a sudden, radical, or complete change

Jesus did bring about change. Jesus was not a rebel. Jesus was a revolutionary.

[darin]

But "revolutionary" doesn't sound as bad-ass. :)

[Hobbit]

But "revolutionary" doesn't sound as bad-ass. :)

No, it sounds classier and more proper, something I think the Son of the Living God would appreciate.

[Hagbard Celine]

Jesus was neither a rebel or a revolutionary. He was a reformer.

[Hobbit]

Jesus was neither a rebel or a revolutionary. He was a reformer.

Also on the mark, but I still think revolutionary fit the bill. He did bring about a sudden and radical change, and one that directed history itself for over one thousand years.

[Hagbard Celine]

Also on the mark, but I still think revolutionary fit the bill. He did bring about a sudden and radical change, and one that directed history itself for over one thousand years.

I just think it's too harsh for Jesus. I usually reserve the term "revolutionary" for people like Che Guevara or Poncho Villa. But I guess you're technically right. He did bring a revolution in religious thought, but the revolution came after his death.

[Hobbit]

I just think it's too harsh for Jesus. I usually reserve the term "revolutionary" for people like Che Guevara or Poncho Villa. But I guess you're technically right. He did bring a revolution in religious thought, but the revolution came after his death.

I was thinking revolutionary in the George Washington and Martin Luther vein.

[TheSage]

Interesting that you would mention this. Jesus, being the Son of God, was not under the authority of human institution; His sole authority was God the Father (see John 5:19 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:19;&version=47;)). So Jesus could not rebel against the Pharisees, because they were not in authority over Him. He could only have rebelled against God, which He obviously did not do.

Therefore, using your argument about authority, Jesus was not a rebel.

It depends on your point of view. They considered him a rebel. And he was a rebel. The word is appropriate. He rebelled against worldly authorities but submitted to god. Quit playing this retarded word game, please. It' beneath you, and it's pathetic and stupid.

[darin]

It depends on your point of view. They considered him a rebel. And he was a rebel. The word is appropriate. He rebelled against worldly authorities but submitted to god. Quit playing this retarded word game, please. It' beneath you, and it's pathetic and stupid.

They also called him Heretic and Sinner and Blasphemer...You going to take THEIR word on how to define Christ?

;)

The Love of Christ you show people with whom you disagree is ASTOUNDING, man.

[TheSage]

They also called him Heretic and Sinner and Blasphemer...You going to take THEIR word on how to define Christ?

;)

The Love of Christ you show people with whom you disagree is ASTOUNDING, man.


The word applies regardless of your point of view. Sometimes rebels are heros.

Love doesn't mean never arguing or disagreeing. Love would be like admitting you're wrong instead of denying the obvious. Love is not a buzzword to be thrown around to stifle discussion.

[Nienna]

It depends on your point of view. They considered him a rebel. And he was a rebel. The word is appropriate. He rebelled against worldly authorities but submitted to god. Quit playing this retarded word game, please. It' beneath you, and it's pathetic and stupid.

Rebellion is a serious charge to a Christian. It is directly opposed to the way God wants us to live our lives, submitted to His authority. It is not a word game.

[TheSage]

Rebellion is a serious charge to a Christian. It is directly opposed to the way God wants us to live our lives, submitted to His authority. It is not a word game.


It's not a serious charge if it's rebellion against a worldly and evil power. Im not talking about rebellion against god. It is a word game. Jesus was a rebel against the pharisees while submitting to god. I can repeat the truth as often as you can repeat your nonsense.

All rebellion is not rebellion against god. Did you know that?


Good Christians never rebel against ANYTHING? That's just a ridiculous assertion. If an insane clown said he was your master, would you do what he said? Because you're anti-rebellion?: Here's a clue, he's not a god.

[darin]

Love doesn't mean never arguing or disagreeing. Love would be like admitting you're wrong instead of denying the obvious. Love is not a buzzword to be thrown around to stifle discussion.


Right - but calling somebody pathetic and stupid? that's not right.

And Dude - YOU WANT him to be a Rebel so it justifies you rebelling against logic.

[TheSage]

Right - but calling somebody pathetic and stupid? that's not right.

And Dude - YOU WANT him to be a Rebel so it justifies you rebelling against logic.


No. He was a rebel. You WON'T ADMIT he's a rebel because you're obsessed with your own authority given to you by worldly satanic powers.

[5stringJeff]

The word "rebellion" in the Bible always has a negative connotation (link (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=rebellious&version1=49&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no)).
Obeying God's word over the laws/traditions/wishes of men is commended (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205:29;&version=47;) , but it is never stated as rebellion; it is upheld as obedience to God.

[TheSage]

Sermon - "Jesus: Social Rebel and Iconoclast"



http://www.uucava.org/sermons/Jesuseminar2.htm
Jesus lived against the systemic injustice and structural evil of oppression in his time. He revealed an alternative available to all who would accept it: a life of open healing and shared eating, of radical itinerancy, programmatic homelessness, and fundamental egalitarianism; of human contact without discrimination, and of divine contact without hierarchy. He also died for that alternative.

Robert Funk, of the Jesus Seminar says "We should not be surprised to learn that the Jesus no one really knows is a subverter of causes. That he tramples with disdain on our saccharine sentiments. That he contradicts the labels we pin on him. That he rejects our honors and adoration. That Jesus, like the real Abraham Lincoln and the real Socrates, floats there in the collective imagination as an elusive but endlessly tantalizing figure who, if liberated, could possibly help us discover who we really are and what life is all about."
The scholars are saying - Look at this religion that was created with all its symbolism and beauty which rests on an individual person’s teachings, and somewhere along the line forgot the teacher as he lived in history. It is a religion that ran to the prophecies and left the person behind; a religion that hasn’t been able to merge icon and iconoclast; that has embroidered such a web of myth and miracle it can’t quite pick up the faint voice of the rebel killed in its midst.

...and, look at the current literal, fundamentalist conservative Christian interpretations and exhortations that vigorously exclude, and call names in judgment, and bind up something they proclaim as THE TRUTH as told in a book they believe absoutely to be the undeniable word of God. Through the eyes of the Jesus Seminar scholar, this kind of Christianity has moved about as far away from the teachings of the historical Jesus as could possibly be. It is sad and ironic.

[TheSage]

The word "rebellion" in the Bible always has a negative connotation (link (http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=rebellious&version1=49&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no)).
Obeying God's word over the laws/traditions/wishes of men is commended (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%205:29;&version=47;) , but it is never stated as rebellion; it is upheld as obedience to God.


But in the modern area and standard english, it is rebellion, and the word is descriptive and accurate.

[5stringJeff]

Sermon - "Jesus: Social Rebel and Iconoclast"

LMAO! Did you really just try to bolster your argument using the Jesus Seminar? :lmao: :lol:

[darin]

No. He was a rebel. You WON'T ADMIT he's a rebel because you're obsessed with your own authority given to you by worldly satanic powers.

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[5stringJeff]

But in the modern area and standard english, it is rebellion, and the word is descriptive and accurate.

Well, I'll take the Bible's authority over yours, thanks.

[Dilloduck]

great quote---thanks !


an elusive but endlessly tantalizing figure who, if liberated, could possibly help us discover who we really are and what life is all about."

[TheSage]

LMAO! Did you really just try to bolster your argument using the Jesus Seminar? :lmao: :lol:

My argument needs no bolstering. Jesus was a rebel, regardless of word usage in the bible. We're not living in biblical times, rebel is appropriate and descriptive. Get you panties ungunched.

[Dilloduck]

My argument needs no bolstering. Jesus was a rebel, regardless of word usage in the bible. We're not living in biblical times, rebel is appropriate and descriptive. Get you panties ungunched.

I aspire to keep my panties gunched. :laugh2:

[Gaffer]

Gee dmp I thought you only had authority as a mod, given by Jim, I didn't know you had satanic authority. I'm impressed. Put in a good word for me would ya.

adolph, we all have authority over you, didn't you know that? :dev3:

[TheSage]

Here's another good article.


http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/jackmcardle/jesusmessage/13_therebel.asp
I believe Jesus to be the greatest revolutionary, the greatest rebel the world has ever seen. A rebel is someone who refuses to conform to the way things are. They refuse to be bound into a system they see as unjust and unacceptable. Jesus came with no less a mandate than to change the world, and the history of the world for all time. The overall purpose for Incarnation, for Jesus coming among us, was to reverse the results of the Fall, to redeem the children of God who were caught up in a mesh of deceit and untruths.

[TheSage]

More


http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/books/books.php?id=5770
Jesuit priest, peace activist, and author John Dear sees Jesus as a rebel who opposed the culture of violence in his time with an inner peace and a startling love of his enemies. He was a troublemaker for the religious elite, the rulers, the war-making empire, and the establishment. Everything he did stemmed from the self-understanding he experienced at his baptism when the Spirit of God hovered over him and he heard the words, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

[Dilloduck]

Here's another good article.

Would you buy a "rebel" by default if the price was right?

[5stringJeff]

My argument needs no bolstering. Jesus was a rebel, regardless of word usage in the bible. We're not living in biblical times, rebel is appropriate and descriptive. Get you panties ungunched.

Jesus was obedient to God the Father, Who was the only authority over Him. The other 'authorities' around, to include both the Romans and Jews, had no authority over Him. Your argument is like saying that you're rebelling against the Chinese Commie government for holding private property in America.

[TheSage]

Gee dmp I thought you only had authority as a mod, given by Jim, I didn't know you had satanic authority. I'm impressed. Put in a good word for me would ya.

adolph, we all have authority over you, didn't you know that? :dev3:

Yet I rebel.

[TheSage]

Jesus was obedient to God the Father, Who was the only authority over Him. The other 'authorities' around, to include both the Romans and Jews, had no authority over Him. Your argument is like saying that you're rebelling against the Chinese Commie government for holding private property in America.

No. My argument is an accurate description of what jesus was. A person can be simultaneously two things. A glass is simultaneously half full and half empty. THis is not a difficult concept. I'm suprised you're having so much trouble.

[5stringJeff]

No. My argument is an accurate description of what jesus was. A person can be simultaneously two things. A glass is simultaneously half full and half empty. THis is not a difficult concept. I'm suprised you're having so much trouble.

When your argument matches with Scripture, you'll have an accurate argument.

[TheSage]

When your argument matches with Scripture, you'll have an accurate argument.


My argument is accurate now. Your "people don't say it that way" argument is retarded.

[5stringJeff]

My argument is accurate now. Your "people don't say it that way" argument is retarded.

Your argument is inaccurate for the reasons I've already explained. If you are too stubborn to listen to reason, then I can't help you.

[TheSage]

Your argument is inaccurate for the reasons I've already explained. If you are too stubborn to listen to reason, then I can't help you.



My argument is accurate. There are lots of words that don't appear in the bible. That doesn't mean they are not accurate in describing facets of it's contents.

[5stringJeff]

My argument is accurate. There are lots of words that don't appear in the bible. That doesn't mean they are not accurate in describing facets of it's contents.

Rebel, rebellion, and rebellious, all appear in the Bible, and it always carries the connotation of rebelling against God. But I've already shown you that, and you've ignored it because you aren't interested in viewing evidence that destroys your pet theories.

[TheSage]

Rebel, rebellion, and rebellious, all appear in the Bible, and it always carries the connotation of rebelling against God. But I've already shown you that, and you've ignored it because you aren't interested in viewing evidence that destroys your pet theories.

But in modernity, rebellion is used to describe other forms of rebellion, think of it that way. It's accurate. Step into the now. Since when do you confine yourself to using language only as it appears in the bible?

[5stringJeff]

Since when do you confine yourself to using language only as it appears in the bible?

When discussing Biblical events and concepts, such as the life of Jesus.

[TheSage]

When discussing Biblical events and concepts, such as the life of Jesus.


So it would be wrong to say he wore flip flops, because "flip flops" was not a word in the bible? OR it's wrong to say he wore non-synthetic fibers, because there was no concept of synthetic fibers in his time? Language is language. It's either accurate or it;s not. Rebellion does not mean, in actuality, only rebellion against god.

[5stringJeff]

Rebellion does not mean, in actuality, only rebellion against god.

Rebellion (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=rebellion):
1 : opposition to one in authority or dominance
2 a : open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government b : an instance of such defiance or resistance

As has already been shown, there was no one on Earth in authority over Jesus. He was obedient to the Father, who was the only One in authority (or dominant) over Him. Therefore, by definition, Jesus was not a rebel. Case closed.

[TheSage]

Rebellion (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=rebellion):
1 : opposition to one in authority or dominance
2 a : open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government b : an instance of such defiance or resistance

As has already been shown, there was no one on Earth in authority over Jesus. He was obedient to the Father, who was the only One in authority (or dominant) over Him. Therefore, by definition, Jesus was not a rebel. Case closed.

No. He was a rebel. The pharisees had wordly authority over him, which he rejected. So did the romans, which he also rejected.

Case closed. Jesus was a rebel. You constrict youself to language that was only in the bible. Remember it was originally not even in english. Good luck.

[Nienna]

It's not a serious charge if it's rebellion against a worldly and evil power. Im not talking about rebellion against god. It is a word game. Jesus was a rebel against the pharisees while submitting to god. I can repeat the truth as often as you can repeat your nonsense.

Actually, between the two of us, I believe you win the "repeating" tally.


All rebellion is not rebellion against god. Did you know that?
Actually...

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. (Romans 13:1-2)



Good Christians never rebel against ANYTHING? That's just a ridiculous assertion. If an insane clown said he was your master, would you do what he said? Because you're anti-rebellion?: Here's a clue, he's not a god.

Good Christians may defend, may fight for justice, but must be very careful in direct dealings with authority figures, even those authorities who are themselves in rebellion against God. Check out Paul's trial in Acts 22-23.

Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day." At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!"

Those who were standing near Paul said, "You dare to insult God's high priest?"

Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' " (Acts 23:1-5)

[TheSage]

Actually, between the two of us, I believe you win the "repeating" tally.


Actually...

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. (Romans 13:1-2)


I do not believe that is what jesus would have said.






Good Christians may defend, may fight for justice, but must be very careful in direct dealings with authority figures, even those authorities who are themselves in rebellion against God. Check out Paul's trial in Acts 22-23.

Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day." At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!"

Those who were standing near Paul said, "You dare to insult God's high priest?"

Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' " (Acts 23:1-5)

Jesus was a rebel.

[Nienna]

I do not believe that is what jesus would have said.

Wow... so you think Paul was at odds with Jesus? What about when Paul said, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:1)?




Jesus was a rebel.
Nope. He wasn't.

[Dilloduck]

Wow... so you think Paul was at odds with Jesus? What about when Paul said, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:1)?




Nope. He wasn't.

He was according to those that had to deal with him.

[darin]

No. He was a rebel. The pharisees had wordly authority over him, which he rejected. So did the romans, which he also rejected.



What I find humorous is how you define "Rebel" or "Rebelling": You seem to define "Rebel" as "One willingly SUBMITS oneself to the AUTHORITY of Roman Punishments, when one could have called down a LEGION of angels.

[darin]

He was according to those that had to deal with him.



Back off my girlfriend, man....c'mon :)

ONLY in the same way The USA is 'rebelling' against Terrorism...or the way Christ "Rebels" against Satan. In VERY loose terms, and only from the point of view of the evil-doers are the USA and Christ 'rebels'.

[TheSage]

What I find humorous is how you define "Rebel" or "Rebelling": You seem to define "Rebel" as "One willingly SUBMITS oneself to the AUTHORITY of Roman Punishments, when one could have called down a LEGION of angels.

But he rebelled against the pharisees, for sure. That's undeniable. Aspire to the life of christ, not the worldly cult of paul.

[Nienna]

He was according to those that had to deal with him.

Those who dealt with him didn't know his heart. I trust his OWN words as a better assessment of his heart & mind.

[TheSage]

Wow... so you think Paul was at odds with Jesus? What about when Paul said, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:1)?




Nope. He wasn't.

Paul was wrong on this one. And jesus was a rebel. Paul was trying to make the thing palatable to the worldly authorities. A big mistake.

[Nienna]

Paul was wrong on this one. And jesus was a rebel. Paul was trying to make the thing palatable to the worldly authorities. A big mistake.

I don't think Paul was worried about making things palatable to worldly authorities, when he was routinely beaten, run out of town, and often jailed by them.

[darin]

Paul was wrong on this one. And jesus was a rebel. Paul was trying to make the thing palatable to the worldly authorities. A big mistake.

Dude - please be careful. You are saying the Bible isn't the REAL word of God, and further, YOU have a deeper understanding of CHRIST than did PAUL.

That's HUGE...and may GOD show you MERCY and GRACE cuz...HOLY SHIT...How can you Trust ANYTHING about Christ if you're saying PAUL is wrong.


Please stop claiming Christ - that's the FIRST thing, because you're misrepresenting Him, brother.

[Dilloduck]

Those who dealt with him didn't know his heart. I trust his OWN words as a better assessment of his heart & mind.

SInce they didn't know his heart they saw him as a rebel. Is saying Jesus was rebellious blasphemy or something?

(great semantic game tho, keep it up)

[darin]

I don't think Paul was worried about making things palatable to worldly authorities, when he was routinely beaten, run out of town, and often jailed by them.

psst! that was Paul's way of REBELLING....don't ya know?

[darin]

But he rebelled against the pharisees, for sure. That's undeniable. Aspire to the life of christ, not the worldly cult of paul.

Did He also rebel against Satan? Is that the weird angle you're using to try and identify your own refusal to submit to Christ's Call to you to SUBMIT?

[TheSage]

Dude - please be careful. You are saying the Bible isn't the REAL word of God, and further, YOU have a deeper understanding of CHRIST than did PAUL.

That's HUGE...and my GOD show you MERCY and GRACE cuz...HOLY SHIT...How can you Trust ANYTHING about Christ if you're saying PAUL is wrong.


Please stop claiming Christ - that's the FIRST thing, because you're misrepresenting Him, brother.


Newsflash, the bible was written by men, Ok braindead fund-o-zombie. Paul was a man. He got this one wrong. Jesus was a rebel.

[Nienna]

SInce they didn't know his heart they saw him as a rebel. Is saying Jesus was rebellious blasphemy or something?

(great semantic game tho, keep it up)

how they saw him is not necessarily what he WAS.

[darin]

Newsflash, the bible was written by men, Ok braindead fund-o-zombie. Paul was a man. He got this one wrong. Jesus was a rebel.

Then you call Christ a liar, too. (sigh) Christ was a Man, too. And God...but also Fully Man. And please, you betray the God you claim with your ad hominem.

[Dilloduck]

Back off my girlfriend, man....c'mon :)

ONLY in the same way The USA is 'rebelling' against Terrorism...or the way Christ "Rebels" against Satan. In VERY loose terms, and only from the point of view of the evil-doers are the USA and Christ 'rebels'.

OOOOOOOoops---I did't know she was taken LOL

[TheSage]

Then you call Christ a liar, too. (sigh) Christ was a Man, too. And God...but also Fully Man. And please, you betray the God you claim with your ad hominem.

When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.

[Dilloduck]

how they saw him is not necessarily what he WAS.

ahhhh so to be exactly accurate I would need to say " Jesus was percieved as a rebel by some of his contemporaries " ?

[Yurt]

When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.


Sorry, have not followed whole thread:

Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no?

[TheSage]

Which carries more weight, the example of jesus or the words of Paul?

[Nienna]

ahhhh so to be exactly accurate I would need to say " Jesus was percieved as a rebel by some of his contemporaries " ?

that's what most of Jason's quotes have been saying

[darin]

OOOOOOOoops---I did't know she was taken LOL

She is. You know it. haven't you seen the pics? :D



hey Jason - How could somebody with ALL AUTHORITY 'rebel' against ANYTHING??

Mathew 28: 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.



When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.


That is an illogical, dishonest question. You believe the bible to be in Err. ANY scripture, from this point on, in YOUR mind is suspect if it doesn't agree with what YOU think.

[TheSage]

Sorry, have not followed whole thread:

Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no?

Romans was written by paul.

[Nienna]

She is. You know it. haven't you seen the pics? :D

I would like to see these pics...

:eek:

[Dilloduck]

that's what most of Jason's quotes have been saying

but is that statement not accurate ?


Mathew 28: 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Cmon---and when he said stuff like this people flipped out ! He certainly wasn't the great conformist of his time.

[Yurt]

Romans was written by paul.

Answer my question.

yes or no

[TheSage]

She is. You know it. haven't you seen the pics? :D



hey Jason - How could somebody with ALL AUTHORITY 'rebel' against ANYTHING??

Mathew 28: 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.





That is an illogical, dishonest question. You believe the bible to be in Err. ANY scripture, from this point on, in YOUR mind is suspect if it doesn't agree with what YOU think.


The church was established by paul, not jesus. Jesus never said "men will write a book about me, it will be flawless." Thats a notion propagated by worldly power seekers.

[Yurt]

When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.


The question is important to your above claim

[TheSage]

Answer my question.

yes or no

Show relevance of the question in the current context and maybe I will.

[Yurt]

The church was established by paul, not jesus. Jesus never said "men will write a book about me, it will be flawless." Thats a notion propagated by worldly power seekers.


And paul was a power seeker? if so, why did he convert?

[TheSage]

You believe the bible to be in Err. ANY scripture, from this point on, in YOUR mind is suspect if it doesn't agree with what YOU think.

I believe it's suspect to value the words of paul over the example of christ.

[darin]

I believe it's suspect to value the words of paul over the example of christ.

Christ didnt Write ANY of the bible, Jason. Those were 'his words' written down by (gasp!) mere men. :)

[TheSage]

And paul was a power seeker? if so, why did he convert?

OR just wrong. Or making a wrong decision to make his movement more acceptable to the worldly powers, or more similar to the current roman temple systems, and rulers.

[TheSage]

Christ didnt Write ANY of the bible, Jason. Those were 'his words' written down by (gasp!) mere men. :)


Would you please stop saying my name. We know you know it. Stop it. Just stop it.

You pick and choose too when you decide to ignore christs' example.

[darin]

Would you please stop saying my name. We know you know it. Stop it. Just stop it.

You pick and choose too when you decide to ignore christs' example.

Translation: You're right Darin - EVERYTHING we have in the bible was written by 'mere men'. I can't refute that even the 'examples of Jesus' we have are 2nd and 3rd party accounts. Instead of manning up, I'll just insult your character by saying "You don't follow the example of christ all the time."


:)

Jason, I love you. I REALLY want to see God get you through this fog. I believe he can; if you ask him.

[Yurt]

Sorry, have not followed whole thread:

Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no?

Why have you refused to answer this question? Is it because it would contradict your point about paul?


When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.


I await

[TheSage]

Translation: You're right Darin - EVERYTHING we have in the bible was written by 'mere men'. I can't refute that even the 'examples of Jesus' we have are 2nd and 3rd party accounts. Instead of manning up, I'll just insult your character by saying "You don't follow the example of christ all the time."


:)

Jason, I love you. I REALLY want to see God get you through this fog. I believe he can; if you ask him.


And I really want you to get out from under the totalitarian satanic brainwash which is swallowing up the world. Darin, I love you too, darin. Paul was not jesus.

[TheSage]

Why have you refused to answer this question? Is it because it would contradict your point about paul?




I await

Just make your point.

[Yurt]

Just make your point.

LOL. Getting mentally tired? Answer the question. I suspect you know my point, else you would have answered the question.

Since you refuse, then I can make no assumptions on your belief about Jesus. The Bible never says:


When did [Bible] say "Everything [Jesus] says will be correct"? Really. show me.


When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.

Original latter. If you don't get the point, stop being so intellectually arrogant and be more humble in your approach. Afterall, you follow Christ right?

[Gaffer]

Its always hard to follow adolphs train of thought, he gets so fuddled and then has to rant and call names for a dozen posts or so. But it seems like he is suppose to be christian yet doesn't believe in the bible. So I'm confused. Is there another bible I haven't heard of? I have read the dead sea scrolls, most of which are pretty laughable. Maybe adolph reads the bibble instead of the bible. That could explain his confussion.

According to the bible christ was not a rebel or a revolutionary, he was a redeamer.

Even though I'm an athiest I have read the bible and most of the dead sea scrolls as well. Also read part of the koran, still working on that.

[darin]

Paul was not jesus.

Yup - But Every word we have FROM PAUL equals the truth as the words we have RECORDED as Jesus having-said. You claim "The bible was written by mere men" so can err. Yet, that would mean even the example of Christ set in teh bible could be in err, as that too was penned by 'mere men'.


You cannot reconcile that fact - I submit the error in your ways/thoughts. I present you with God's Truth on this matter, but you'll reject it because you believe you know better than God.

[Yurt]

Its always hard to follow adolphs train of thought, he gets so fuddled and then has to rant and call names for a dozen posts or so. But it seems like he is suppose to be christian yet doesn't believe in the bible. So I'm confused. Is there another bible I haven't heard of? I have read the dead sea scrolls, most of which are pretty laughable. Maybe adolph reads the bibble instead of the bible. That could explain his confussion.

According to the bible christ was not a rebel or a revolutionary, he was a redeamer.

Even though I'm an athiest I have read the bible and most of the dead sea scrolls as well. Also read part of the koran, still working on that.

He was a "rebel" of the pharisees and sadducees and the "establishment," but that was MAN, not God.

I am still trying to figure his point out and honestly he seems intellectually weak and runs from questions that don't fit his paradigm.

[Dilloduck]

I hate when Christians march in lock step like this. Thier gonna take over America and force stuff down our throats !!!!!!! :laugh2:

[Gaffer]

I hate when Christians march in lock step like this. Thier gonna take over America and force stuff down our throats !!!!!!! :laugh2:

I don't see any lock step or taking over America in what they are saying. Nor have I seen anything forced down anyones throat. Tho adolph tries and you like to enable him.

[TheSage]

I don't see any lock step or taking over America in what they are saying. Nor have I seen anything forced down anyones throat. Tho adolph tries and you like to enable him.

You've got it completely backwards. It's the christian fund-o-zombies preparing to intitute theocracy in the name of love. They cannot even acknowledge the actual example of christ's life, and instead choose to play word games.

[TheSage]

Christ didnt Write ANY of the bible, Jason. Those were 'his words' written down by (gasp!) mere men. :)

Paul didn't attribute romans to jesus, Darin.

[TheSage]

The Rebel Jesus -- Jackson Brown



http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/THE-REBEL-JESUS-lyrics-Jackson-Browne/52F85AD10F6F373E48256A4D0020718B
All the streets are filled with laughter and light
And the music of the season
And the merchants' windows are all bright
With the faces of the children
And the families hurrying to their homes
While the sky darkens and freezes
Will be gathering around the hearths and tables
Giving thanks for God's graces
And the birth of the rebel Jesus

Well they call him by 'the Prince of Peace'
And they call him by 'the Savior'
And they pray to him upon the seas
And in every bold endeavor
And they fill his churches with their pride and gold
While their faith in him increases
But they've turned the nature that I worship in
From a temple to a robber's den
In the words of the rebel Jesus

Well we guard our world with locks and guns
And we guard our fine possessions
And once a year when Christmas comes
We give to our relations
And perhaps we give a little to the poor
If the generosity should seize us
But if any one of us should interfere
In the business of why there are poor
They get the same as the rebel Jesus

Now pardon me if I have seemed
To take the tone of judgement
For I've no wish to come between
This day and your enjoyment
In a life of hardship and of earthly toil
There's a need for anything that frees us
So I bid you pleasure
And I bid you cheer
From a heathen and a pagan
On the side of the rebel Jesus

[TheSage]

Check matthew 21:12 for more of jesus's rebellion.





http://www.carm.org/diff/table_cleansing.htm
cleanses the Temple 12 And Jesus entered the temple and cast out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 45 And He entered the temple and began to cast out those who were selling,
Jesus speaks to the people 13 And He *said to them, "It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer’; but you are making it a robbers‘ den."
14 And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.
15 But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that He had done, and the children who were crying out in the temple and saying, "Hosanna to the Son of David," they became indignant,
16 and said to Him, "Do You hear what these are saying?" And Jesus *said to them, "Yes; have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babes Thou hast prepared praise for Thyself’?"

[Dilloduck]

I don't see any lock step or taking over America in what they are saying. Nor have I seen anything forced down anyones throat. Tho adolph tries and you like to enable him.

Gaffer---you gotta learn to pick up on sarcasm. OF COURSE there was no agreement nor is Jason referring to Christians taking over Amerca. Try to keep up, dude !

[darin]

Paul didn't attribute romans to jesus, Darin.

Nobody attributes ANY books to Jesus. We have people (including Paul) in the bible presenting their first-account of the words Christ spoke.

One of the biggest logical fallacies of your point is this: You claim Paul was mistaken because he was 'merely' a man, yet somehow you, who is also 'merely a man' is correct. It's a classic case of the Fallacy of "Special Pleading"

I also suppose you believe a parent is 'rebelling' against their kids when they spank them, eh? I mean, the 'parent disciplining a child' is the PERFECT comparison to what Jesus did in your 'cleansing of the temple' passage. As we alreay know, Christ was NOT under ANYONE's authority. Nobody can 'rebel' from those over whom they have authority, can they?

[TheSage]

Nobody attributes ANY books to Jesus. We have people (including Paul) in the bible presenting their first-account of the words Christ spoke.

One of the biggest logical fallacies of your point is this: You claim Paul was mistaken because he was 'merely' a man, yet somehow you, who is also 'merely a man' is correct. It's a classic case of the Fallacy of "Special Pleading"

I also suppose you believe a parent is 'rebelling' against their kids when they spank them, eh? I mean, the 'parent disciplining a child' is the PERFECT comparison to what Jesus did in your 'cleansing of the temple' passage. As we alreay know, Christ was NOT under ANYONE's authority. Nobody can 'rebel' from those over whom they have authority, can they?

They are rebelling against the modern belief that spanking is bad, while submitting to more traditional tried and true, and more effective methods. One can simulataneously submit to one thing, while rebelling against another. You can warp your own thinking, but I won't allow you to warp mine, thank you very much, Darin.

Regarding paul, it was obvious he was not thinking of the example of jesus when he said all government should be submitted to. Was it wrong for us to topple saddam's government, because all governments are established by god? Hell no. Christianity is not a not a promise to be a doormat.

[darin]

Regarding paul, it was obvious he was not thinking of the example of jesus when he said all government should be submitted to. Was it wrong for us to topple saddam's government, because all governments are established by god? Hell no. Christianity is not a not a promise to be a doormat.

That's not even CLOSE, Jason. Christ's words (unless you don't believe them because they were recorded by a mere man) tell us to honor and give what is required to those in authority over us. Render unto Ceasar....that line? There's no rebellion. Coupled with Paul's words (which, honestly, I trust more than yours), we are taught to be good citizens. Only by giving up our rights (as Christ did by willingly submitting to the authority of the roman government - up until crucifixion) do we become more like christ. By our free submission to HIM, and repect of those he puts in authority over us, do we learn to be less controlled by our 'flesh.

[TheSage]

That's not even CLOSE, Jason. Christ's words (unless you don't believe them because they were recorded by a mere man) tell us to honor and give what is required to those in authority over us. Render unto Ceasar....that line? There's no rebellion. Coupled with Paul's words (which, honestly, I trust more than yours), we are taught to be good citizens. Only by giving up our rights (as Christ did by willingly submitting to the authority of the roman government - up until crucifixion) do we become more like christ. By our free submission to HIM, and repect of those he puts in authority over us, do we learn to be less controlled by our 'flesh.

No. He displayed rebellion in his own life, quite obviously. Paul was trying to make christianity acceptable to the authorities. Was it wrong to topple saddam because god put him in power? Your mental inconsistencies are glaring.

[Dilloduck]

Render unto Hillary what is Hillarys' ? :420:

[TheSage]

These people are all psychological abuse victims who's only model for relationships is totalitarianism. I pity them.

[darin]

No. He displayed rebellion in his own life, quite obviously. Paul was trying to make christianity acceptable to the authorities. Was it wrong to topple saddam because god put him in power? Your mental inconsistencies are glaring.

Whom did he rebel against? Himself? We already showed Christ saying NO authority was above his. We've shown that either Paul was right, or a Liar. We've shown the words of Christ were written NOT by christ, but by those who heard him speak. We have paul giving exmaple's of Christ, but that isn't good enough for you, because how DARE Paul of the Bible contradict JASON of the INTERNET!

You can insult all you like Jason. You can throw out red herrings, too, if that helps you sleep.

You need to find a way to reconcile your dis-trust of CERTAIN parts of the bible. You need to find a way to reconcile what you WANT to be truth, vs. what IS truth.

[TheSage]

Whom did he rebel against? Himself? We already showed Christ saying NO authority was above his. We've shown that either Paul was right, or a Liar. We've shown the words of Christ were written NOT by christ, but by those who heard him speak. We have paul giving exmaple's of Christ, but that isn't good enough for you, because how DARE Paul of the Bible contradict JASON of the INTERNET!

You can insult all you like Jason. You can throw out red herrings, too, if that helps you sleep.

You need to find a way to reconcile your dis-trust of CERTAIN parts of the bible. You need to find a way to reconcile what you WANT to be truth, vs. what IS truth.

He rebelled against the pharisees, and romans. Your word games and bizarre defintions don't make that untrue. Paul was just a man, who was trying to make his thing more acceptable to worldly authorities.

You can be illogical all you like, you can be a braindead fund-0-zombie.

My opinion and interpretation of things is just as valid as yours. Jesus believed in power to the individual, not an elite priesthood who dictated reality to the masses, which is what you seem to favor. Your version of truth is just as susceptible to criticism. When pauls words stand in stark contrast to the life of jesus, I choose jesus. You should too.

[Yurt]

Sage:

Answer the question or shut up:

Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no?

Again, I repeat my Answer to your post wherein you inquired:



Just make your point.

I did, though you have failed to. Big tough guy with comments like that, yet you fail to make your "point."


LOL. Getting mentally tired? Answer the question. I suspect you know my point, else you would have answered the question.

Since you refuse, then I can make no assumptions on your belief about Jesus. The Bible never says:

You:


When did [Bible] say "Everything [Jesus] says will be correct"? Really. show me


When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.



Answer it or shut it. You had ample time. If my questions confuse you, please ask me to clarify. No worries. But dont' go bitchen at others when you can't answer someone's post(s).


Original latter. If you don't get the point, stop being so intellectually arrogant and be more humble in your approach. Afterall, you follow Christ right?



It is that easy. No anger, just answers or questions. Remember when those haughty taughy high up jews asked jesus questions, he responded with questions. Very powerful. You have failed to even try an answer.


Are you real or troll?

[TheSage]

Sage:

Answer the question or shut up:

Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no?

Again, I repeat my Answer to your post wherein you inquired:




I did, though you have failed to. Big tough guy with comments like that, yet you fail to make your "point."



You:







Answer it or shut it. You had ample time. If my questions confuse you, please ask me to clarify. No worries. But dont' go bitchen at others when you can't answer someone's post(s).





It is that easy. No anger, just answers or questions. Remember when those haughty taughy high up jews asked jesus questions, he responded with questions. Very powerful. You have failed to even try an answer.


Are you real or troll?

What was your point again? I don't recall you making one. If you made one, it should be easy to restate. If you're just full of hot air, then we'll probably get more of that.

[darin]

He rebelled against the pharisees, and romans. Your word games and bizarre defintions don't make that untrue.

But Christ had Authority over those folk.


Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth


Paul was just a man, who was trying to make his thing more acceptable to worldly authorities.


We have an agreement that Paul is a man. But seems God and you differ on your opinion of the importance of Paul.


(Saul/Paul) is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.



You can be illogical all you like, you can be a braindead fund-0-zombie.


Ad Hominem For The Loss!



My opinion and interpretation of things is just as valid as yours. Jesus believed in power to the individual,

Dude - see? You think this is about ME vs. You. It's not. Frankly, YOUR opinion and interpretation is WORTHLESS here...as-is mine. I'm telling you the TRUTH. This is about what I am saying (which is abolute, God-inspired Truth (based on my sources) vs. what YOU are saying which is mere speculation based what YOU WANT to believe.

Christ believed in the power of GOD. Not the individual man. Man, as an individual has NO power to reach God. Christ's sacrifice meant we NO LONGER needed animal sacrifice or a priest to link us to God...but that only happened when he DIED - research how the curtain deviding the holy-of-holies from the general temple area, was ripped upon His death.




not an elite priesthood who dictated reality to the masses, which is what you seem to favor.

We'll you're sure pulling THAT out of your ass. lol :) That's an example of the Fallacy of ridicule! Nice!


Your version of truth is just as susceptible to criticism. When pauls words stand in stark contrast to the life of jesus, I choose jesus. You should too.

But you make Jesus a Liar. Jesus stated paul's importance. And you STILL can't reconcile your claims that the men who directly quoted Christ are somehow LESS Prone to Err as Paul - who also saw Christ face-to-face - and was CHOSEN of Christ, in even MORE Glory and Majesty than those 12 Christ called before his Crucifixion.


Submit yourself to Christ, Jason. SUBMIT yourself to Christ's word. To God's word. If you think ONE PART of the bible is a lie, then the entire book should be suspect. But the truth is:


16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

'Course...Paul wrote that bit, too...and we all know you think He a liar.

[TheSage]

But Christ had Authority over those folk.


Yet they were the worldly authorities. Just like here. You have authority over me as a mod, but I have authority over you as a better person and intellectual superior. It's kind of a point of view thing. And the word rebellion applies either way. HE was simultaneously submitting to god and rebelling against worldy powers. It's not an either/or situation.







We have an agreement that Paul is a man. But seems God and you differ on your opinion of the importance of Paul.

So god told you what he though about paul? Wild.






Ad Hominem For The Loss!



Dude - see? You think this is about ME vs. You. It's not. Frankly, YOUR opinion and interpretation is WORTHLESS here...as-is mine. I'm telling you the TRUTH. This is about what I am saying (which is abolute, God-inspired Truth (based on my sources) vs. what YOU are saying which is mere speculation based what YOU WANT to believe.

You're telling me one interpretation. I believe another.



Christ believed in the power of GOD. Not the individual man.



Man, as an individual has NO power to reach God. Christ's sacrifice meant we NO LONGER needed animal sacrifice or a priest to link us to God...but that only happened when he DIED - research how the curtain deviding the holy-of-holies from the general temple area, was ripped upon His death.

Christ loved and respected individual men. Everything else is an abstraction and, as such, is not real.






We'll you're sure pulling THAT out of your ass. lol :) That's an example of the Fallacy of ridicule! Nice!



But you make Jesus a Liar. Jesus stated paul's importance. And you STILL can't reconcile your claims that the men who directly quoted Christ are somehow LESS Prone to Err as Paul - who also saw Christ face-to-face - and was CHOSEN of Christ, in even MORE Glory and Majesty than those 12 Christ called before his Crucifixion.


You deny his very example, because that's what's consistent with your addiction and dependence on the most powerful hierarchy in the world. The us military.




Submit yourself to Christ, Jason. SUBMIT yourself to Christ's word. To God's word. If you think ONE PART of the bible is a lie, then the entire book should be suspect. But the truth is:SUb


Submit yourself to christ's example darren, and quit being a powertripper.






'Course...Paul wrote that bit, too...and we all know you think He a liar.
He was wrong on a couple things. That's all. Just as you think jesus was wrong to defy the authorities, or that it was wrong to topple the government of saddam, since he was put in power by god.

Luckily, we don't have to agree.

[Yurt]

What was your point again? I don't recall you making one. If you made one, it should be easy to restate. If you're just full of hot air, then we'll probably get more of that.


Are you an idiot?

You have failed at least three times now to answer my question.


Answer the question or shut up:

Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no?

I already said I have not read every post, you know that, yet,you fail to answer this post, this repeating post.


The core of your diatribe is this:


When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me


Where is your proof on your stance? Your foundation is:

When did Jesus say this....

You however have failed to provide anything contrary to your claim. When did anyone say anything that Jesus said would be correct? I want you to answer it. It may set you at peace.

Again:

You can't answer it. Don't hide, answer my post, this is the fourth time. If you are scared, just PM me.

[TheSage]

Are you an idiot?

You have failed at least three times now to answer my question.



I already said I have not read every post, you know that, yet,you fail to answer this post, this repeating post.


The core of your diatribe is this:




Where is your proof on your stance? Your foundation is:

When did Jesus say this....

You however have failed to provide anything contrary to your claim. When did anyone say anything that Jesus said would be correct? I want you to answer it. It may set you at peace.

Again:

You can't answer it. Don't hide, answer my post, this is the fourth time. If you are scared, just PM me.


Berating others is not a valuable contribution. Did jesus say "everything paul says will be valid for all time?" Show me if he did. Or make another argument.

[TheSage]

Jesus was a rebel. The corruption of the faith began even as early as paul. All major denominations today have been corrupted by freemasons into noahide jew worshipping houses of apostasy.

[Yurt]

Berating others is not a valuable contribution. Did jesus say "everything paul says will be valid for all time?" Show me if he did. Or make another argument.

Who said:

everything Jesus says will be valid for all time? Who? if "He" did. Or make another argument.

You are weak, you can't answer simple questions.

That easy.

Btw, you seem to be the king of NOT answering questions. Wonder why... scared.....

[TheSage]

Who said:

everything Jesus says will be valid for all time? Who? if "He" did. Or make another argument.

You are weak, you can't answer simple questions.

That easy.

Btw, you seem to be the king of NOT answering questions. Wonder why... scared.....
Yes. I'm so terrified of your inablility to make a coherent argument.

[Yurt]

Jesus was a rebel. The corruption of the faith began even as early as paul. All major denominations today have been corrupted by freemasons into noahide jew worshipping houses of apostasy.

Unfortunately, you have corrupted the faith of Jesus with "your" interpretations.

Your beliefs have no foundation in scripture, hence why you run from my questions and fail to offer proof to anyone else.

[Yurt]

Yes. I'm so terrified of your inablility to make a coherent argument.

Fool, you have again failed to answer a simple question.


Chicken.

[TheSage]

Unfortunately, you have corrupted the faith of Jesus with "your" interpretations.

Your beliefs have no foundation in scripture, hence why you run from my questions and fail to offer proof to anyone else.

Your questions are irrelevant. It's obvious in scripture that jesus was a rebel.

[Yurt]

Answer the question or shut up:

Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no?


Answer this or shut up.

[TheSage]

Fool, you have again failed to answer a simple question.


Chicken.



What is your assertion exactly. We're all waiting for something besides bluster and non-sequitur.

[TheSage]

Answer this or shut up.

Make me, tough guy.

[Yurt]

Your questions are irrelevant. It's obvious in scripture that jesus was a rebel.


Unfortunately, your replies are irrelevant. You never stick to the topic. Why? Are you scared?

[Yurt]

Make me, tough guy.

chicken:

e.g.,

I can't answer Yurt's question, because it will prove me wrong.

Sad.

[TheSage]

Unfortunately, your replies are irrelevant. You never stick to the topic. Why? Are you scared?
You have yet to make a single point. Your ability to argue a theory shouldn't be so dependant on the input of others. Are you stupid?

[Yurt]

You have yet to make a single point. Your ability to argue a theory shouldn't be so dependant on the input of others. Are you stupid?

Sage:

I have my point no less than four times, your ignorance will not excuse that fact. You know it, I know it, but you still claim it.

You have asked me two times to repeat myself, I did. Now you give me this again. It is a simple question:



Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no?

Maybe you are not who you claim due to the difficulty you have answering a simple question.

Or maybe your pride makes you blind with ingorance. Shame.


When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.


Now, answer my question, or keep your mouth shut. Because your claim refutes you.


Do you believe Jesus is equal with God?

Yes or no


If you can't answer that after FIVE tries, you are either a fool or a liar or a troll.

It is that simple. If you don't understand, "pray" on it buddy boy

[TheSage]

Sage:

I have my point no less than four times, your ignorance will not excuse that fact. You know it, I know it, but you still claim it.

You have asked me two times to repeat myself, I did. Now you give me this again. It is a simple question:




Maybe you are not who you claim due to the difficulty you have answering a simple question.

Or maybe your pride makes you blind with ingorance. Shame.




Now, answer my question, or keep your mouth shut. Because your claim refutes you.




If you can't answer that after FIVE tries, you are either a fool or a liar or a troll.

It is that simple. If you don't understand, "pray" on it buddy boy

A question is not a point.

[Gaffer]

Sage:

I have my point no less than four times, your ignorance will not excuse that fact. You know it, I know it, but you still claim it.

You have asked me two times to repeat myself, I did. Now you give me this again. It is a simple question:




Maybe you are not who you claim due to the difficulty you have answering a simple question.

Or maybe your pride makes you blind with ingorance. Shame.




Now, answer my question, or keep your mouth shut. Because your claim refutes you.




If you can't answer that after FIVE tries, you are either a fool or a liar or a troll.

It is that simple. If you don't understand, "pray" on it buddy boy

I vote for lying troll.

You can't really expect he's going to give you an answer. He's a spinning song and dancer but he never gives answers.

[TheSage]

I vote for lying troll.

You can't really expect he's going to give you an answer. He's a spinning song and dancer but he never gives answers.

Im waiting for this joker to make a point. A question asked in a belligerent tone is not a point.

[Yurt]

A question is not a point.


You sentence was not an answer.

[Yurt]

Im waiting for this joker to make a point. A question asked in a belligerent tone is not a point.

Asking if Jesus is equal to God is a belligerent point?

[Yurt]

Im waiting for this joker to make a point. A question asked in a belligerent tone is not a point.

Wait, aren't you the one who moans and groans about insults and not repsonses....

loser

[TheSage]

I'll make his point:

Since god inspired the entire bible, and jesus is god, jesus therefore approves of the entire contents of the bible.

His problem is that I don't believe the entire bible is the inspired word of god. It was compiled by the catholic church at a certain point in time, and no, I don't believe it's entire contents is the word of god.

[Yurt]

I'll make his point:

Since god inspired the entire bible, and jesus is god, jesus therefore approves of the entire contents of the bible.

His problem is that I don't believe the entire bible is the inspired word of god. It was compiled by catholic church at a certain point in time, and no, I don't believe it's entire contents is the word of god.


You did not make my point, you finally answered it. Slow poke.

Jesus is God.

Good. We have that from you. You fail to grasp the rest of my postSSS.

Now answer, simple, you did it this time, you can do it again I know you can.



And paul was a power seeker? if so, why did he convert?




When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me.

This question, NOT answered makes your "answer" a mockery of God. Now answer it. If you can, with no insults, just answer, like you finally did above.

Where is the same question in reference to Jesus? Where? Answer:

None.

Hence your point is futile.

Happy

[TheSage]

You did not make my point, you finally answered it. Slow poke.

Jesus is God.

Good. We have that from you. You fail to grasp the rest of my postSSS.

Now answer, simple, you did it this time, you can do it again I know you can.








This question, NOT answered makes your "answer" a mockery of God. Now answer it. If you can, with no insults, just answer, like you finally did above.

Where is the same question in reference to Jesus? Where? Answer:

None.

Hence your point is futile.

Happy

You're an incoherent imbecile.

[darin]

Yet they were the worldly authorities. Just like here. You have authority over me as a mod, but I have authority over you as a better person and intellectual superior. It's kind of a point of view thing. And the word rebellion applies either way. HE was simultaneously submitting to god and rebelling against worldy powers. It's not an either/or situation.

So god told you what he though about paul? Wild.

You're telling me one interpretation. I believe another.

Christ loved and respected individual men. Everything else is an abstraction and, as such, is not real.

You deny his very example, because that's what's consistent with your addiction and dependence on the most powerful hierarchy in the world. The us military.


Submit yourself to christ's example darren, and quit being a powertripper.


He was wrong on a couple things. That's all. Just as you think jesus was wrong to defy the authorities, or that it was wrong to topple the government of saddam, since he was put in power by god.

Luckily, we don't have to agree.



Dude - I love you like a brother - but I REALLY think you should see 'somebody' man. You draw these unrealistic and illogical and honestly, crazy conclusions. Seriously...Get help. Find a GOOD church; talk to a pastor. ANYTHING to get you to stop calling Christ a liar.

[TheSage]

Dude - I love you like a brother - but I REALLY think you should see 'somebody' man. You draw these unrealistic and illogical and honestly, crazy conclusions. Seriously...Get help. Find a GOOD church; talk to a pastor. ANYTHING to get you to stop calling Christ a liar.


You're denying the actual meaning of his life and death. You need help. Seriously. Get away from the pastors and new world order "health professionals" and think for yourself.

[Nienna]

You're denying the actual meaning of his life and death. You need help. Seriously. Get away from the pastors and new world order "health professionals" and think for yourself.

What was the meaning of his life & death, from your perspective?

[TheSage]

What was the meaning of his life & death, from your perspective?


He was a rebel, who was punished for his rebelliousness with death, but in this death, he also saved all mankind from the totalitarianism of satan, both by his supernatural sacrifice and his example to live in rebellion against the worldly powers of darkness.

[darin]

He was a rebel, who was punished for his rebelliousness with death, but in this death, he also saved all mankind from the totalitarianism of satan, both by his supernatural sacrifice and his example to live in rebellion against the worldly powers of darkness.

You are really hurting Jayson...honestly. That's so far from reality it's nausiating.

[TheSage]

You are really hurting Jayson...honestly. That's so far from reality it's nausiating.

Well get a pukebag, cuz it's the truth. Your noahide vision of subservience to worldly powers is the antithesis of christ's message.

[darin]

Well get a pukebag, cuz it's the truth. Your noahide vision of subservience to worldly powers is the antithesis of christ's message.

lol :) What I have said which is noahide-ish? You've not really quoted ANY scripture to back up your delusions, have you? Course, the bible (when it doesn't agree with YOU ) is unreliable at best, anyway....Jasin, you're in my prayers...because I wonder if God Himself can drill down through your insecurities and lies and pride and make you see Him.

[TheSage]

lol :) What I have said which is noahide-ish? You've not really quoted ANY scripture to back up your delusions, have you? Jasin, you're in my prayers...because I wonder if God Himself can drill down through your insecurities and lies and pride and make you see Him.

You're in prayers too, as your denials of the reality of the significance of jesus's life and words eludes you to this moment. Peace be with you, dayron.

[Yurt]

You're an incoherent imbecile.


Translation:

I can't answer Yurt. I am imbecile but will call him one because I can't answer a simple question, nor respond in an intelligent manner.

Are you nothing but insults? Do you have substance? If you have substance, point out exactly what I said that makes me incoherent, not some bald statement. Any fool can do that. Of course you already know that...

[TheSage]

Translation:

I can't answer Yurt. I am imbecile but will call him one because I can't answer a simple question, nor respond in an intelligent manner.

Are you nothing but insults? Do you have substance? If you have substance, point out exactly what I said that makes me incoherent, not some bald statement. Any fool can do that. Of course you already know that...


You still have yet to make a point. I made one of your points for you. You acted like you won something, and are still stuggling for coherence.

[Yurt]

You still have yet to make a point. I made one of your points for you. You acted like you won something, and are still stuggling for coherence.

Again with the point issue. Try not deflecting and answering.

Here is the point, after this, there is no excuse.


You said:


When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me


My "answer" to you all along has been when did anyone say that everything, everything Jesus says will be correct? When, where.

Answer it. Because, my POINT is:

Your premise "must" mean that unless someone says "everything 'Jesus' says will be correct...." then 'paul' is not right. You make this claim about Paul, but can not back it up with any claim about Jesus.

Hence, are you following me, I hope so:

your claim about Paul is doublespeak or worthless. Makeup your mind.


My point is clear, has been, if you choose to muddy the waters further, it is on your head, not mine.

[TheSage]

Again with the point issue. Try not deflecting and answering.

Here is the point, after this, there is no excuse.


You said:




My "answer" to you all along has been when did anyone say that everything, everything Jesus says will be correct? When, where.

Answer it. Because, my POINT is:

Your premise "must" mean that unless someone says "everything 'Jesus' says will be correct...." then 'paul' is not right. You make this claim about Paul, but can not back it up with any claim about Jesus.

Hence, are you following me, I hope so:

your claim about Paul is doublespeak or worthless. Makeup your mind.


My point is clear, has been, if you choose to muddy the waters further, it is on your head, not mine.


You're a retard.

[Dilloduck]

Again with the point issue. Try not deflecting and answering.

Here is the point, after this, there is no excuse.


You said:




My "answer" to you all along has been when did anyone say that everything, everything Jesus says will be correct? When, where.

Answer it. Because, my POINT is:

Your premise "must" mean that unless someone says "everything 'Jesus' says will be correct...." then 'paul' is not right. You make this claim about Paul, but can not back it up with any claim about Jesus.

Hence, are you following me, I hope so:

your claim about Paul is doublespeak or worthless. Makeup your mind.


My point is clear, has been, if you choose to muddy the waters further, it is on your head, not mine.

I'm confused---are you saying that since there are no words in the Bible that actually say "everything that Jesus said is the truth" or "everything Paul said is the truth" that to challenge what Paul said is challenging what Jesus said too ?

[TheSage]

I'm confused---are you saying that since there are no words in the Bible that actually say "everything that Jesus said is the truth" or "everything Paul said is the truth" that to challenge what Paul said is challenging what Jesus said too ?

I think you nailed it!

It's what we call "black and white", or "all or nothing" thinking. Either you accept every sentiment expressed by everyone in the bible, or you must reject that it even basically accurately portrays the major events of jesus's life.
It's what we call in professional circles a "load".

[Hagbard Celine]

I think you nailed it!

It's what we call "black and white", or "all or nothing" thinking. Either you accept every sentiment expressed by everyone in the bible, or you must reject that it even basically accurately portrays the major events of jesus's life.
It's what we call in professional circles a "load".

What if you think the Bible is neither completely accurate or completely inaccurate but that it's message is most likely muddled and/or exaggerated or watered down due to it's having been written down from memory years, even centuries after the events it describes actually occurred by people who had no association with its characters other than blind faith as well as its being translated multiple times through many languages as well as its contents having been voted on by several different councils such as the one at Nicea as well as its having been edited with some parts omitted by these councils because those parts didn't mesh with what they thought should be the proper image of Jesus as well as its having the events it describes embellished upon by its writers who obtained its stories from a centuries-old verbal history as well as its having an uncanny resemblance to mythical stories from other cultures such as the "Epic of Gilgamesh," the story of Osiris and Isis, etc. What if you take these things into account when considering the authenticity of the Bible as "God's complete, unadulterated word?" Oh yeah, what about the Koran? There are a few people who think maybe it's "God's complete, unadulterated word." What about them?:boobies:

[TheSage]

What if you think the Bible is neither completely accurate or completely inaccurate but that it's message is most likely muddled and/or exaggerated or watered down due to it's having been written down from memory years, even centuries after the events it describes actually occurred by people who had no association with its characters other than blind faith as well as its being translated multiple times through many languages as well as its contents having been voted on by several different councils such as the one at Nicea as well as its having been edited with some parts omitted by these councils because those parts didn't mesh with what they thought should be the proper image of Jesus as well as its having the events it describes embellished upon by its writers who obtained its stories from a centuries-old verbal history as well as its having an uncanny resemblance to mythical stories from other cultures such as the "Epic of Gilgamesh," the story of Osiris and Isis, etc. What if you take these things into account when considering the authenticity of the Bible as "God's complete, unadulterated word?" Oh yeah, what about the Koran? There are a few people who think maybe it's "God's complete, unadulterated word." What about them?:boobies:



Yes, well, my thread really isn't about this. From a literary point of view, the character of jesus as presented in the biblical narrative possesses the quality of rebelliousness.

[5stringJeff]

Jesus was a rebel. The corruption of the faith began even as early as paul. All major denominations today have been corrupted by freemasons into noahide jew worshipping houses of apostasy.

Where is your evidence of the "corruption of the faith" that early in church history? Where are the Christians who 'really' follow Christ?

[TheSage]

Where is your evidence of the "corruption of the faith" that early in church history? Where are the Christians who 'really' follow Christ?


Paul added teachings that jesus obviously would have disagreed with. Like his little power appeaser speech about all government being respected. You obviously don't believe that either, or you would have been against toppling saddam's government. Sometimes evil is in power and in that scenario, we should not honor that government.

[5stringJeff]

Paul added teachings that jesus obviously would have disagreed with.

You mean, that in your 2000-years-hence estimation, that Jesus would have disagreed with? Remember, Jesus appeared to Paul numerous times. Why would Paul intentionally misrepresent the messages of Christ when He repeatly appeared to him?


Like his little power appeaser speech about all government being respected. You obviously don't believe that either, or you would have been against toppling saddam's government. Sometimes evil is in power and in that scenario, we should not honor that government.

You are misinterpreting that passage. The context is that all citizens should respect the government to which they are subject. Nothing in the Bible prevents wars between governments.

[Yurt]

I'm confused---are you saying that since there are no words in the Bible that actually say "everything that Jesus said is the truth" or "everything Paul said is the truth" that to challenge what Paul said is challenging what Jesus said too ?


It is to show him how stupid his comment is:

When did jesus say "Everything paul says will be correct"? Really. show me


He believes in Jesus, yet no one made this comment about Jesus. It is a "following his train of thought to its logical conclusion" type reasoning. That is why he could never outright answer it, because he knows it will necessarily negate his argument.

[TheSage]

You mean, that in your 2000-years-hence estimation, that Jesus would have disagreed with? Remember, Jesus appeared to Paul numerous times. Why would Paul intentionally misrepresent the messages of Christ when He repeatly appeared to him?



You are misinterpreting that passage. The context is that all citizens should respect the government to which they are subject. Nothing in the Bible prevents wars between governments.

Oh so then it would be wrong for the iranians to rise against the fundamentalists in control over there? Your invented exception for government on government toppling is just convenient for you. Is it wrong for chinese people to rebel against their totalitarian government, because they were born under it?

Governments are either sanctioned by god or they are not. Was the american revolution wrong? The american government only existed after the revolution. You're completely grasping at straws and it is sad.

[Yurt]

You're a retard.


From the debator of the century...:cow:

[TheSage]

From the debator of the century...:cow:

You had to go back to that? sad.

[Yurt]

You had to go back to that? sad.

Go back? Never was there. You are confused debator. Your one liners don't solve anything, except your "peace" of mind. It is clear who refuses to answer...

What is sad is your refusal to debate/answer the question. That is sad. Though you know that already and thus you must keep up quips/insults to make yourself sleep at night.

May you find peace.

[TheSage]

Go back? Never was there. You are confused debator. Your one liners don't solve anything, except your "peace" of mind. It is clear who refuses to answer...

What is sad is your refusal to debate/answer the question. That is sad. Though you know that already and thus you must keep up quips/insults to make yourself sleep at night.

May you find peace.

I've already articulated your point for you and refuted it.

May you get a clue and develop the ability to communicate more effectively.

[Yurt]

I've already articulated your point for you and refuted it.
May you get a clue and develop the ability to communicate more effectively.

Kindly let me know where. I have asked you again, and again to explain your point. Don't be snide, if you really articulated [your] point, somehow you think have done that with mine, then link the thread, or better yet, instead of being snide, simply sum up your alleged refutation. It is not hard, unless of course you are blowing hot wind.

No insults. Just a simple, clear refutation. If you can't refute me "again" then you have nothing to stand on. If I can't communicate effectively, then you should have no problem. It should be easy for you.

Sum it up, don't claim you have.

[5stringJeff]

Oh so then it would be wrong for the iranians to rise against the fundamentalists in control over there? Your invented exception for government on government toppling is just convenient for you. Is it wrong for chinese people to rebel against their totalitarian government, because they were born under it?

I Corinthians 7:21: "Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that."

Try reading the Bible holistically, Jason. It makes a lot more sense that way.

[TheSage]

I Corinthians 7:21: "Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that."

Try reading the Bible holistically, Jason. It makes a lot more sense that way.



It also makes more sense if you value the actual example of christ. That should carry at least as much weight as paul's selling out. As I said, the religion was corrupted from nearly the beginning.

Accept being a slave? Even your treasured jews were smarter than that. Moses led them out of bondage, and defied pharoah. was that wrong?

[Nienna]

It also makes more sense if you value the actual example of christ. That should carry at least as much weight as paul's selling out. As I said, the religion was corrupted from nearly the beginning.

Accept being a slave? Even your treasured jews were smarter than that. Moses led them out of bondage, and defied pharoah. was that wrong?

Jewish individuals were not in rebellion; they chose new leadership. The Bible is full of examples of unjust or unholy governments being overturned by other governments. Individual Jews who rebelled against Egypt were not rewarded with freedom. Only when they were a part of the God-ordained Exodus was their opposition to the Egyptian government rewarded with freedom.

[avatar4321]

The Lord didn't come as a rebel of anything. He came as a restorer. He restored the message of the Gospel which was lost among the Israelites when they were given the law of Moses as a result of their wickedness.

Christ made a specific point not to rebel against the government. It was the Pharisees who tried to get him to rebel so they could make some claim against His life.


17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. (Matthew 22:17-21)

Of course, the Pharisees still made false claims agianst Him. But Christ was innocent of the charges. When He was brought before Caiaphas and Pilate did He rebel then? No, not even then. He knew those wicked men were going to put Him to death. Yet rather than rebel and call down the Armies of Heaven as His disposal, He submitted to them. He let them beat Him, mock Him, scourge Him, and murder Him in the most horrible method ever conceived of by man. Despite this He still prayed to His Father to forgive those that were doing this to Him.

And why did He do this? Not because He was a rebel. If He had been a rebel the jews would have welcomed Him with open arms because that is exactly what they were expecting. They were expecting their Messiah to rebel against the oppressors and bring in a reign of peace forever. They were not expecting the man from Galilee because He was not the rebel they wanted.

No, He submitted Himself to authorities to be killed because He loved His the world. He forgave His murderers because He loved them despite what they were doing. He knew that as gruesome and painful as what He was going through it was the only way He could Atone for the sins of the world. The only way He could conquor death was to first submit to it.

It is that love, charity, the pure love of Christ that Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians.


1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. (1 Cor. 13:1-7)

I wish you would learn to have charity for both the Jew and the Gentile. Do you think the Gospel was taught to the Gentiles to the exclusion of the Jews? Do you think you as a Gentile, have any more claim on the Atonement then the Jew does if you act wickedly? Paul preached to the Gentiles to save the Jews, not condemn them:


13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive a
tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. (Romans 11:13-28)

The fulness of the Gentiles is coming in as Paul prophecied, the Gentiles are rejecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the largest scale in in history since the western world converted nearly 1700 years ago. Do you really think the Lord will not graft the natural branches back in? Do you think Paul was lying when he promised that Israel would be saved? Do you really think the numberless prophecies and promises that scattered Israel will be gathered will not come to pass?

God has no forgotten His promises. Nor does He sleep. He is actively preparing the World for the Second Coming, and part of that preparation is fulfilling the the prophecy of gathering. The physical gathering Judah to Palestine is only one aspect. They will still yet recognize their Messiah.

So if I were you, I'd worry less about what any Jews are doing and focus more on my own path before God. Without charity to both Jew and Gentile, you have nothing.

[TheSage]

The Lord didn't come as a rebel of anything. He came as a restorer. He restored the message of the Gospel which was lost among the Israelites when they were given the law of Moses as a result of their wickedness.

Christ made a specific point not to rebel against the government. It was the Pharisees who tried to get him to rebel so they could make some claim against His life.



Of course, the Pharisees still made false claims agianst Him. But Christ was innocent of the charges. When He was brought before Caiaphas and Pilate did He rebel then? No, not even then. He knew those wicked men were going to put Him to death. Yet rather than rebel and call down the Armies of Heaven as His disposal, He submitted to them. He let them beat Him, mock Him, scourge Him, and murder Him in the most horrible method ever conceived of by man. Despite this He still prayed to His Father to forgive those that were doing this to Him.

And why did He do this? Not because He was a rebel. If He had been a rebel the jews would have welcomed Him with open arms because that is exactly what they were expecting. They were expecting their Messiah to rebel against the oppressors and bring in a reign of peace forever. They were not expecting the man from Galilee because He was not the rebel they wanted.

No, He submitted Himself to authorities to be killed because He loved His the world. He forgave His murderers because He loved them despite what they were doing. He knew that as gruesome and painful as what He was going through it was the only way He could Atone for the sins of the world. The only way He could conquor death was to first submit to it.

It is that love, charity, the pure love of Christ that Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians.



I wish you would learn to have charity for both the Jew and the Gentile. Do you think the Gospel was taught to the Gentiles to the exclusion of the Jews? Do you think you as a Gentile, have any more claim on the Atonement then the Jew does if you act wickedly? Paul preached to the Gentiles to save the Jews, not condemn them:



The fulness of the Gentiles is coming in as Paul prophecied, the Gentiles are rejecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ on the largest scale in in history since the western world converted nearly 1700 years ago. Do you really think the Lord will not graft the natural branches back in? Do you think Paul was lying when he promised that Israel would be saved? Do you really think the numberless prophecies and promises that scattered Israel will be gathered will not come to pass?

God has no forgotten His promises. Nor does He sleep. He is actively preparing the World for the Second Coming, and part of that preparation is fulfilling the the prophecy of gathering. The physical gathering Judah to Palestine is only one aspect. They will still yet recognize their Messiah.

So if I were you, I'd worry less about what any Jews are doing and focus more on my own path before God. Without charity to both Jew and Gentile, you have nothing.


No. He did rebel on many levels. I'd abandon your kooky end times jew woshipping cult and get your head on straight.