I'm glad I'm not the Judge

[Cheyenne]

Wilma is a sweet woman; we've talked. Then I met Fred, Wilma's beau. And little by little the story has unfolded.

Wilma's husband will soon be dead 15 years. It was Fred that got her to re-enter life about 8 years ago. They go out on the weekends for a few hours. They don't stay out late as Fred farms & Wilma works hard for her years, as well. These aren't young people, but that's not relevant.

Two days a week Wilma cares for Fred's wife.
It seems about 15 years ago, Fred's wife was taking her daughter to school, ran a red light & was in a terrible accident. A bloodclot hit her brain & I'm not sure what other injuries she sustained, other than she does have a colostomy. She has been bedridden since; an invalid.
Fred sold some of his property for his wife to have the care she needed in a nursing home, but finally brought her home & has had someone care for her there, since.

Now I don't think they planned this but it is quite obvious that Fred & Wilma have a relationship & think a lot of each other. But he is married. He hasn't deserted his wife; the "in sickness & in health". But she hasn't been able to be a 'wife' of any kind to this man for 15 years.

Should Fred & Wilma have chosen differently?

[manu1959]

Wilma is a sweet woman; we've talked. Then I met Fred, Wilma's beau. And little by little the story has unfolded.

Wilma's husband will soon be dead 15 years. It was Fred that got her to re-enter life about 8 years ago. They go out on the weekends for a few hours. They don't stay out late as Fred farms & Wilma works hard for her years, as well. These aren't young people, but that's not relevant.

Two days a week Wilma cares for Fred's wife.
It seems about 15 years ago, Fred's wife was taking her daughter to school, ran a red light & was in a terrible accident. A bloodclot hit her brain & I'm not sure what other injuries she sustained, other than she does have a colostomy. She has been bedridden since; an invalid.
Fred sold some of his property for his wife to have the care she needed in a nursing home, but finally brought her home & has had someone care for her there, since.

Now I don't think they planned this but it is quite obvious that Fred & Wilma have a relationship & think a lot of each other. But he is married. He hasn't deserted his wife; the "in sickness & in health". But she hasn't been able to be a 'wife' of any kind to this man for 15 years.

Is Fred & Wilma wrong?

depends what fred and wilma do when the don't stay out late......

[Cheyenne]

depends what fred and wilma do when the don't stay out late......
Why does that matter? If he is entertaining another woman other than his wife....even if sex is not involved, (which personally I believe is), he would still be wrong.

[manu1959]

Why does that matter? If he is entertaining another woman other than his wife....even if sex is not involved, (which personally I believe is), he would still be wrong.

i have friends that are women....my wife has friends that are men.....

cross the sex line and it is wrong.....

[Cheyenne]

i have friends that are women....my wife has friends that are men.....

cross the sex line and it is wrong.....Yes, I agree with you & I understand what you are saying.
But it is quite obvious by this couple's talk, behavior & gestures that they are more than friends.

Can you not cross the 'sex line' without ever being physically intimate? Can you not adulterate your marriage vows by your work, your activities, the computer???

Fred is married and not to Wilma. This would be cheating. But is it?

[manu1959]

Yes, I agree with you & I understand what you are saying.
But it is quite obvious by this couple's talk, behavior & gestures that they are more than friends.

Can you not cross the 'sex line' without ever being physically intimate? Can you not adulterate your marriage vows by your work, your activities, the computer???

Fred is married and not to Wilma. This would be cheating. But is it?

i say no.....to cross the line you have to cross it....

[Dilloduck]

How about just letting the Flintstones work things out themselves. What's the big need to judge what others do, think, or appear to be ?

[manu1959]

How about just letting the Flintstones work things out themselves. What's the big need to judge what others do, think, or appear to be ?

who was judging them?

[Cheyenne]

How about just letting the Flintstones work things out themselves. What's the big need to judge what others do, think, or appear to be ?

Did you read the title to this thread???
I'm not trying to judge their actions. I was trying to figure out what I might do in the same situation. I just thought others might have some intelligent opinions/comments.

[Dilloduck]

who was judging them?

My bad--carry on.

I assumed you asked a for a judgement call on this one.


Is Fred & Wilma wrong?

[Cheyenne]

i say no.....to cross the line you have to cross it....
I agree that sex is what sets marriage apart from friendship; so you think that if no sex is involved it's okay? What if he is incapable of intercourse?

[Kathianne]

who was judging them?

I hear you. Personally, I would stay faithful sexually to my spouse.

On the other hand, as a single person, I'd also enter into a relationship as this, if the capcitated spouse was of my likeing, and wanted to. I wouldn't expect anything out of it, regardless of outcome. I'd just be impressed with a person that would stay for the long term.

Then again, it may be my perspective is skewed. ;)

[manu1959]

My bad--carry on.

no worries....we were getting ready to judge them.....

[Cheyenne]

My bad--carry on.

I assumed you asked a for a judgement call on this one.Sorry.
I changed the question

[Gaffer]

What does Fred's wife have to say. Does she approve of them going out? of their doing anything else? Are they sneaking behind her back?

[Immanuel]

I don't see anything wrong with them being friends and socializing together. However, I think they are walking on thin ice between simply being friends and crossing over to being lovers. If they have crossed that line then they are cheating.

It is possible that Fred's wife would "understand" and be happy that he has found someone else, but that does not excuse the action.

Immie

[darin]

I can say if I were in fred's wife's place I'd hope my wife finds joy away from me. I'd appreciate the care; but fully expect her to engage in an adult relationship with a man. As long as he was good to her (and me), I could understand, I suppose.

[Hagbard Celine]

Wilma is a sweet woman; we've talked. Then I met Fred, Wilma's beau. And little by little the story has unfolded.

Wilma's husband will soon be dead 15 years. It was Fred that got her to re-enter life about 8 years ago. They go out on the weekends for a few hours. They don't stay out late as Fred farms & Wilma works hard for her years, as well. These aren't young people, but that's not relevant.

Two days a week Wilma cares for Fred's wife.
It seems about 15 years ago, Fred's wife was taking her daughter to school, ran a red light & was in a terrible accident. A bloodclot hit her brain & I'm not sure what other injuries she sustained, other than she does have a colostomy. She has been bedridden since; an invalid.
Fred sold some of his property for his wife to have the care she needed in a nursing home, but finally brought her home & has had someone care for her there, since.

Now I don't think they planned this but it is quite obvious that Fred & Wilma have a relationship & think a lot of each other. But he is married. He hasn't deserted his wife; the "in sickness & in health". But she hasn't been able to be a 'wife' of any kind to this man for 15 years.

Should Fred & Wilma have chosen differently?

You know the Flintstones?!?!? Can you introduce me to them????:eek:

[Cheyenne]

What does Fred's wife have to say. Does she approve of them going out? of their doing anything else? Are they sneaking behind her back?
I do know that they all were in the same social circle. One of the other friends said to me, " I don't think the "Mrs" knows; she might suspect. But what can she do about it??"
Then again, Mrs. might not care either.


]I can say if I were in fred's wife's place I'd hope my wife finds joy away from me. I'd appreciate the care; but fully expect her to engage in an adult relationship with a man. As long as he was good to her (and me), I could understand, I suppose.Sure, if you love your spouse you want them to be happy. But that would be hard, would it not; to still feel loved while your wife was out banging your best friend; knowing that he was enjoying the intimacy that at one time, was rightfully yours?

What about if the tables were turned & it was your wife, not you, laying there & you had needs & desires?

[Cheyenne]

I don't see anything wrong with them being friends and socializing together. However, I think they are walking on thin ice between simply being friends and crossing over to being lovers. If they have crossed that line then they are cheating.

It is possible that Fred's wife would "understand" and be happy that he has found someone else, but that does not excuse the action.

ImmieSo then you agree with Manu that unless sex is involved there's nothing wrong? That sex is the defining "cheating" line & nothing else?

[darin]

If the husband continues to live-up to his promise to care for the invalid, he's not cheating her of anything. :)


Sure, if you love your spouse you want them to be happy. But that would be hard, would it not; to still feel loved while your wife was out banging your best friend; knowing that he was enjoying the intimacy that at one time, was rightfully yours?

What about if the tables were turned & it was your wife, not you, laying there & you had needs & desires?

I was speaking as if I were the invalid - as an invalid, I doubt I'd have needs or desires beyond basic physical health care. It'd be worse to see my wife go the rest of her life w/o personal intimacy than to see her with another man. As long as she held true to her promise to care for me until death, I'd have no animosity.

[Immanuel]

So then you agree with Manu that unless sex is involved there's nothing wrong? That sex is the defining "cheating" line & nothing else?

Yes, and I fail to see where you would think otherwise.

Is it wrong for me to be friends with women at work or that I meet socially in another capacity? I'm not sure where you are going with this.

Immie

[Cheyenne]

Yes, and I fail to see where you would think otherwise.

Is it wrong for me to be friends with women at work or that I meet socially in another capacity? I'm not sure where you are going with this.

ImmieNot really going anyplace in particular.

But don't you think it's possible to 'cheat' on your spouse without having sex with another person? Is it not possible to give your attention to someone or something else so that it takes away from intimacy with your spouse? What about working 70 hours a week? What about pornography? What about Scouts & PTA & Church activities & school programs &.............You're just too tired.

I'm not talking about friends at work; but it is a very fine & dangerous line.
And why would you need to meet your wife's best friend some evening?

[Cheyenne]

.....I was speaking as if I were the invalid - as an invalid, I doubt I'd have needs or desires beyond basic physical health care. It'd be worse to see my wife go the rest of her life w/o personal intimacy than to see her with another man. As long as she held true to her promise to care for me until death, I'd have no animosity.Yes, I understood that. But what if she were the invalid and you had needs & desires? Do you think she'd want you to out on the weekend with another woman while she laid in bed? Do you think you wouldn't have a problem keeping company with another while your wife lay at home with only a nurse?

[darin]

Yes, I understood that. But what if she were the invalid and you had needs & desires? Do you think she'd want you to out on the weekend with another woman while she laid in bed? Do you think you wouldn't have a problem keeping company with another while your wife lay at home with only a nurse?

I also think my wife would ask me to care for her, and I'd be glad to - but also she'd want me to find company with somebody. It's sad she'd be lonely the rest of her life - sadder still if she were lonely because of me, if I were the invalid.

[gabosaurus]

Totally wrong! Marriage is "til death do you part." You only get one married partner. You need to stay together and be faithful. That is where the "in sickness and health" part comes in.
If you cheat on your spouse, under ANY conditions, you are an adulterer. Read what the Bible says about adultery.
Sex is not required for marriage. Only MARRIAGE is required for marriage. If you are married, you should NOT be involved with another woman. Under any circumstances.

I want to know how some of you can so viciously attack homosexuality, but approve of adultery. It's blatant hypocrisy.

[Cheyenne]

Totally wrong! Marriage is "til death do you part." You only get one married partner. You need to stay together and be faithful. That is where the "for sickness and health" part comes in.
If you cheat on your spouse, under ANY conditions, you are an adulterer. Read what the Bible says about adultery.
Sex is not required for marriage. Only MARRIAGE is required for married. If you are married, you should NOT be involved with another woman.

I want to know how some of you can so viciously attack homosexuality, but approve of adultery.

Sex is the defining factor that sets marriage apart from all other relationships; it is the privilege of the relationship. And the marriage bed is not to be defiled.
But this woman has not been able to have sex or be any kind of companion to her husband for 15 years. This isn't like she's had a heart attack or has gotten cancer.

And you can have a very intimate relationship without ever having intercourse.

[Cheyenne]

I also think my wife would ask me to care for her, and I'd be glad to - but also she'd want me to find company with somebody. It's sad she'd be lonely the rest of her life - sadder still if she were lonely because of me, if I were the invalid.
You are a much bigger & more understanding person than what I'd be.

I understand what you're saying. And as much as I would want my spouse to be happy & live a normal healthy life despite what has befallen me, I have to say that I would be a little jealous, develop a sh*tty attitude and be bitter the rest of my days....which would probably push him further away. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

[darin]

Sex is the defining factor that sets marriage apart from all other relationships. It is the privilege of the relationship. And the marriage bed is not to be defiled. A
But this woman has not been able to have sex or be any kind of companion to her husband for 15 years. This isn't like she's had a heart attack or has gotten cancer.

And you can have a very intimate relationship without ever having intercourse.

Don't mind her, Chey - gabby is only being vicious and mean because that's her nature. She knows the concepts you're talking about, she only wants to provoke. She adds NO value to any discussion.



You are a much bigger & more understanding person than what I'd be.

I understand what you're saying. And as much as I would want my spouse to be happy & live a normal healthy life despite what has befallen me, I have to say that I would be a little jealous, develop a sh*tty attitude and be bitter the rest of my days....which would probably push him further away. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy?


Keep in mind you're asking me to speculate on a situation can't yet (and hopefully never will) relate to.

[Trigg]

My 2 cents.

IF they are having a sexual relationship and the wife knows and has no objections than the rest of the "social circle" should stay out of their business.

[Cheyenne]

Keep in mind you're asking me to speculate on a situation can't yet (and hopefully never will) relate to.
Yes, speculation is futile.
I just happen to be closer to this situation & I began wondering how I would behave in the same situation. We don't know what we would do. We can easily say something like, "I'd never do that!" but until you walk that walk, you never know.
I thought it might be interesting to see what others think.


My 2 cents.

IF they are having a sexual relationship and the wife knows and has no objections than the rest of the "social circle" should stay out of their business.That's a mighty big IF. And yes, if it was decided between this husband & wife, it is no one else's business. I was seculating otherwise.

You don't think this affects these other people? It's like knowing your best friend is cheating on her husband. How do you handle such a thing when you're all sitting around at a cook-out?

[darin]

Yes, speculation is futile.
I just happen to be closer to this situation & I began wondering how I would behave in the same situation. We don't know what we would do. We can easily say one thing like, "I'd never do that!" but until you walk that walk, you never know.
I thought it might be interesting to see what others think.

absolutely.

[mrg666]

Wilma is a sweet woman; we've talked. Then I met Fred, Wilma's beau. And little by little the story has unfolded.

Wilma's husband will soon be dead 15 years. It was Fred that got her to re-enter life about 8 years ago. They go out on the weekends for a few hours. They don't stay out late as Fred farms & Wilma works hard for her years, as well. These aren't young people, but that's not relevant.

Two days a week Wilma cares for Fred's wife.
It seems about 15 years ago, Fred's wife was taking her daughter to school, ran a red light & was in a terrible accident. A bloodclot hit her brain & I'm not sure what other injuries she sustained, other than she does have a colostomy. She has been bedridden since; an invalid.
Fred sold some of his property for his wife to have the care she needed in a nursing home, but finally brought her home & has had someone care for her there, since.

Now I don't think they planned this but it is quite obvious that Fred & Wilma have a relationship & think a lot of each other. But he is married. He hasn't deserted his wife; the "in sickness & in health". But she hasn't been able to be a 'wife' of any kind to this man for 15 years.

Should Fred & Wilma have chosen differently?

simply put
no

[Immanuel]

Not really going anyplace in particular.

But don't you think it's possible to 'cheat' on your spouse without having sex with another person? Is it not possible to give your attention to someone or something else so that it takes away from intimacy with your spouse? What about working 70 hours a week? What about pornography? What about Scouts & PTA & Church activities & school programs &.............You're just too tired.

I'm not talking about friends at work; but it is a very fine & dangerous line.
And why would you need to meet your wife's best friend some evening?

Of course it is possible and I would have to say that I am guilty of "cheating" under these circumstances. But didn't you say the wife was a vegetable? What intimacy is she capable of receiving?

I pray I never have to watch my wife in such a situation!

Immie


Totally wrong! Marriage is "til death do you part." You only get one married partner. You need to stay together and be faithful. That is where the "in sickness and health" part comes in.
If you cheat on your spouse, under ANY conditions, you are an adulterer. Read what the Bible says about adultery.
Sex is not required for marriage. Only MARRIAGE is required for marriage. If you are married, you should NOT be involved with another woman. Under any circumstances.

I want to know how some of you can so viciously attack homosexuality, but approve of adultery. It's blatant hypocrisy.

I would have to disagree with you here. Being friends with someone of the opposite sex is not adultery.

Immie

[Nukeman]

Totally wrong! Marriage is "til death do you part." You only get one married partner. You need to stay together and be faithful. That is where the "in sickness and health" part comes in.
If you cheat on your spouse, under ANY conditions, you are an adulterer. Read what the Bible says about adultery.
Sex is not required for marriage. Only MARRIAGE is required for marriage. If you are married, you should NOT be involved with another woman. Under any circumstances.
I want to know how some of you can so viciously attack homosexuality, but approve of adultery. It's blatant hypocrisy.


I like this part!!!

You would make a perfect Muslim, did you know that? They fully agree with you here on this part, of course that is if your Muslim

This IMHO has got to be one of the most narrow minded things you have said on here and that says a lot....

Do you have contact with any males in y our classes, work, or social standing?? If so you are not practicing what your preaching miss. I would also ask you to remember

"He who is without sin can cast the first stone" In other words we are not there judge in this, so also remember "Judge not lest yee be judged"

These two statements should be ground into everyones minds from birth so it will eventualy stick. (unless your liberal than nothing stick to your freaking brains)

[Nienna]

Totally wrong! Marriage is "til death do you part." You only get one married partner. You need to stay together and be faithful. That is where the "in sickness and health" part comes in.
If you cheat on your spouse, under ANY conditions, you are an adulterer. Read what the Bible says about adultery.
Sex is not required for marriage. Only MARRIAGE is required for marriage. If you are married, you should NOT be involved with another woman. Under any circumstances.

I want to know how some of you can so viciously attack homosexuality, but approve of adultery. It's blatant hypocrisy.

I have to agree here. Faithfulness is in the heart and mind AS WELL AS the body.


I like this part!!!

You would make a perfect Muslim, did you know that? They fully agree with you here on this part, of course that is if your Muslim

This IMHO has got to be one of the most narrow minded things you have said on here and that says a lot....

Do you have contact with any males in y our classes, work, or social standing?? If so you are not practicing what your preaching miss. I would also ask you to remember

"He who is without sin can cast the first stone" In other words we are not there judge in this, so also remember "Judge not lest yee be judged"

These two statements should be ground into everyones minds from birth so it will eventualy stick. (unless your liberal than nothing stick to your freaking brains)

I took it as she meant they shouldn't be ROMANTICALLY involved.

[Dilloduck]

Time to just brand everyone with the scarlet A and and move on to to some other sins. There are tons of other thought (and action) sins that don't get nearly enough attention. We may never get done analyzing those guilty of pride and greed. The obsession with sex/love sins is quite enlightening.

[Trigg]

That's a mighty big IF. And yes, if it was decided between this husband & wife, it is no one else's business. I was seculating otherwise.

You don't think this affects these other people? It's like knowing your best friend is cheating on her husband. How do you handle such a thing when you're all sitting around at a cook-out?


Why would it affect people who arn't involved?

Here is a man who is taking care of his wife who has been bedridden for 15 years. If I knew someone in this situation who was involved romanticly with someone other than their wife, I wouldn't have a problem with it...here's that IF again.......the wife knew about it and was in agreement.

Would I bring it up to the wife and tell her if I think she didn't know? Probably not in this situation.

[Abbey Marie]

I couldn't tell from the post if the wife was still able to converse normally with her husband. Is she mentally incapacitated, or just physically?
If mentally, then the husband isn't really in a relationship anymore, and I can see his need for companionship. Also, then she is unable to really know that he is with another, so at least there is no chance of hurting her.

If all he is doing is spending a few hours with this other woman, no sex involved, then he can do that same thing with some guy friends.

[Cheyenne]

Time to just brand everyone with the scarlet A and and move on to to some other sins. There are tons of other thought (and action) sins that don't get nearly enough attention. We may never get done analyzing those guilty of pride and greed. The obsession with sex/love sins is quite enlightening.
Why do you have such a problem with this???

This is what our lives are comprised of, relationships. It's what we were made for. The state of our marriages ( & long-term relationships) affects every aspect of our lives very deeply. I don't see where anyone is being "obsessed".


......IF again.......the wife knew about it and was in agreement.
So, what if she doesn't?

And would you give your husband permission to receive & give attention to another woman, despite the fact that you couldn't be with him sexually?


I couldn't tell from the post if the wife was still able to converse normally with her husband. Is she mentally incapacitated, or just physically?
If mentally, then the husband isn't really in a relationship anymore, and I can see his need for companionship. Also, then she is unable to really know that he is with another, so at least there is no chance of hurting her.

If all he is doing is spending a few hours with this other woman, no sex involved, then he can do that same thing with some guy friends.I'm lead to understand that she is mentally competent, but to what degree, I don't know.

[Immanuel]

I'm lead to understand that she is mentally competent, but to what degree, I don't know.

Then I had misunderstood. I had understood that she was a vegetable.

I still do not believe that there is a problem with a purely platonic relationship, but stand by my statement that it would be walking a thin sheet of ice.

Immie

[Trigg]

So, what if she doesn't?

And would you give your husband permission to receive & give attention to another woman, despite the fact that you couldn't be with him sexually?

I'm lead to understand that she is mentally competent, but to what degree, I don't know.

After 15 years, I probably would give him permission.

It would be a hard decision, but he would still be a normal healthy man. Forcing him to be celibate would more than likely cause resentment.

[Abbey Marie]

Such a tough call, Cheyenne.

But I think the overriding question is, why would we take a vow to forsake all others, to have and to hold, in sickness and in health, if not for situations like this?

Fairly typical traditional wedding vows:

Do you GROOM'S NAME take BRIDE'S NAME to be your wife – to live together after God’s ordinance – in the holy estate of matrimony? Will you love her, comfort her, honor and keep her, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto her as long as you both shall live?

[Cheyenne]

Such a tough call, Cheyenne.
But I think the overriding question is, why would we take a vow to forsake all others, to have and to hold, in sickness and in health, if not for situations like this?


After 15 years, I probably would give him permission.
It would be a hard decision, but he would still be a normal healthy man. Forcing him to be celibate would more than likely cause resentment.
Yes, the marriage vow is something that should be taken to the heart & is very serious.

We are not promised the "happily ever after" when we get married. But do you go your whole life saying, "This is as good as it gets" & resign yourself to the fact?

I would not want my husband going out with another woman; but I would also bear a lot of guilt in making him live such a dutiful, sacrificing life.

I agree, it's a tough call. I just wondered what others thought about it religiously & morally.

[Immanuel]

I would not want my husband going out with another woman; but I would also bear a lot of guilt in making him live such a dutiful, sacrificing life.


I understand what you are saying and if it were a sexual relationship, I would not want my wife involved with another man. On the other hand, I do not think I would object to her going out to dinner, going to the movies, crying on his shoulder kind of thing.

Immie

[Cheyenne]

I understand what you are saying and if it were a sexual relationship, I would not want my wife involved with another man. On the other hand, I do not think I would object to her going out to dinner, going to the movies, crying on his shoulder kind of thing.

ImmieBut if you take one single person & one very vulnerable person, that equals a potentially dangerous situation where heartbroken & harmless can turn into hot & steamy.
I think indulging in this puts a person's feet on a path where temptation looms.

I would prefer my spouse spend time with their same-sex friends or now a-days, find a support group.

[Immanuel]

But if you take one single person & one very vulnerable person, that equals a potentially dangerous situation where heartbroken & harmless can turn into hot & steamy.
I think indulging in this puts a person's feet on a path where temptation looms.

I would prefer my spouse spend time with their same-sex friends or now a-days, find a support group.

You are right.

The temptation is there as I said they would be walking on thin ice.

I would not trust myself... but I would trust my wife.

Immie