*Radical Islam Is*

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. But all over the world we see nothing but radical Islam.
2. All over the planet, lookie here folks:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/world/asia/21pakistan.html?ref=world

3. Sick bastards!:poke:

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. Also read this:


http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2007/oct/21/yehey/metro/20071021met1.html

"
President Gloria Arroyo has already described the said incident at the Glorietta Mall in which nine people were killed, scores injured, and one missing as an act of “terrorism”.

"

2. Happening everywhere.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[actsnoblemartin]

I cant deny what your saying, it is true.


Sorry bout that,

1. Also read this:


http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2007/oct/21/yehey/metro/20071021met1.html

"
President Gloria Arroyo has already described the said incident at the Glorietta Mall in which nine people were killed, scores injured, and one missing as an act of “terrorism”.

"

2. Happening everywhere.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[retiredman]

the fact that there are newsworthy bad acts by islamic extremists does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of muslims on the face of this earth does not agree with those bad acts.

[manu1959]

the fact that there are newsworthy bad acts by islamic extremists does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of muslims on the face of this earth does not agree with those bad acts.


what pray tell are these muslims that do not agree with the evil muslims doing to stop them......the evil muslims are kiling the good ones....by the thousands....

[mrg666]

what pray tell are these muslims that do not agree with the evil muslims doing to stop them......the evil muslims are kiling the good ones....by the thousands....

there are no evil muslims allah says so
the faith itself in purity is a good ideology untill twisted by radicals

[TheSage]

there are no evil muslims allah says so
the faith itself in purity is a good ideology untill twisted by radicals

No it's not dimwit. It tells jihadis to kill nonbelievers. The life of mohammed was an example of perpetual war for terrirtorial gain.

[Guernicaa]

Sorry bout that,

1. But all over the world we see nothing but radical Islam.
2. All over the planet, lookie here folks:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/world/asia/21pakistan.html?ref=world

3. Sick bastards!:poke:

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas
Oh you read the Times do you?
I'm glad to see at least one conservative gets their news from good sources.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. But when *The Neoliberals* report on reality as it is, I don't mind using their words to further my purpose.
2. I give a listen to all sources.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[mrg666]

No it's not dimwit. It tells jihadis to kill nonbelievers. The life of mohammed was an example of perpetual war for terrirtorial gain.

if reading between the lines yes
being num 1 conspiracy artist on the board you would do

[LuvRPgrl]

the fact that there are newsworthy bad acts by islamic extremists does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of muslims on the face of this earth does not agree with those bad acts.


Where good men do nothing, evil shall flourish.

The lack of sound coming from the muslims worldwide is a testament to their lack of goodness. Their silence supports the radicals who kill in their names.

If it were groups professing to be Chrisitians, you would no doubt hear virtually all the major spokespersons for all Christian groups denouncing it, AND helping to end it.

Thousands of Muslim Mosques, where many of your so called "good muslims" attend, allow the radicals to operate unseen.

You are a pathetic ragdoll piece of shit for doing anything that supports terrorists in any way

When I speak to any muslims these days and ask them what they are doing to prevent more radicals murdering more innocents, if they dont have anything to say, I condemn them and tell them they have blood on their hands and their religion is evil.

I have spent many, many evenings in the Glorietta mall, and lots of kids are always in and around that atrium, virtually all of the people who go there are good hearted filipinos. Filipinos are extremely NON CONFRONTATIONAL people. An example is at the American embassay in Manila. This fuckhead American wanted to cut in line in front of all the filipinos, and when the cops tried to stop him, he started yelliing at them, saying, Im an American, etc, etc. I told the guy he is an ass.
Then his ****hole wife was trying to say that the embassay is theirs, Americans, and they shouldnt have to wait in line. I told them, yea, Im American too, but Im waiting in line. Now if it were owned by assholes, by all means you should be in line first. The guy threatened me, I laughed, and said a few more choice things that embarrased him terribly, and as he walked off, the people in line actually applauded me
m On the way out;, the cops actually thanked me. Yea, they thanked me, COPS. Now if that happened in the US, guess who would be lieing on the sidewalk face first, knee in their back and handcuffs going on tight enough to cut off most circulation.

Terrorists are evil, vile satanic people. Their religion is also. Those who dont stand up against it are culpable. To end it, the world needs more people to step up. ESPECIALLY FUCKING MUSLIMS, but they dont, because many, deep down think its ok.

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. Yeah I agree LuvRPgrl, Islam is an evil thing that this way comes.
2. I have never been to the, *American Embassy* in Manila, but I have driven by it.
3. Never needed too.
4. But that American may have not known that everyone must wait their turn,*In Line*, in *The Philippines*.
5. In every Gov. building I ever went to I always had to wait my turn.
6. Except *The Philippines National Bank* in Bacolod City, where they always treated my like a VIP.
7. The line was always an hour or two long, and I never got a complaint when they shuffled me through there when I came in.
8. I don't know why the lines were always so long, you take a number and go sit down and wait, takes a long time for the locals.
9. Now back on topic: In many areas of the Philippines, Muslims attack Christians, without a cause, typical Islamic behavior.
10. I say they ban Islam in *The Philippines* as well.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[actsnoblemartin]

But their overwhelming silence (and refusal to publicly condemn it) is deafening


the fact that there are newsworthy bad acts by islamic extremists does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of muslims on the face of this earth does not agree with those bad acts.

[glockmail]

the fact that there are newsworthy bad acts by islamic extremists does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of muslims on the face of this earth does not agree with those bad acts.
Don't hear much from these "good" muslims. How come?

[LuvRPgrl]

Don't hear much from these "good" muslims. How come?

CUz we aint puttin up cartoons of fuckhead pediophile Mohammed lately.

Now for that they come out of the woodworks. Odd, isnt it, their priorities?

[retiredman]

Don't hear much from these "good" muslims. How come?


"hear" from them? Do we "hear" much from you? No. Is that somehow an indictment of you? The VAST majority of muslims are going to work, operating their businesses, keeping their heads down. Are you suggesting that everyday muslims need to stand up and vocally denounce those in their midst who are killers just to avoid being tarred with the same brush by ignorant bigots like YOU?

I can just see glock, without his dogs or his firearms, striding right into the middle of a group of angry and armed teenaged thugs on a rave and demanding they stop being so loud and destructive.

because if he didn't, everyone would think he was one of them! :laugh2:

[Immanuel]

Where good men do nothing, evil shall flourish.

The lack of sound coming from the muslims worldwide is a testament to their lack of goodness. Their silence supports the radicals who kill in their names.

If it were groups professing to be Chrisitians, you would no doubt hear virtually all the major spokespersons for all Christian groups denouncing it, AND helping to end it.



I wish I could agree with you, but I can't.

When Paul Hill murdered John Britton (an abortionist) and James Barrett an abortion escort there was little condemnation by Christian leaders. It was more like they were patting him on the back telling him "Well done thou good and faithful servant". Eric Rudolph received support for his bombing of an abortion clinic. When a clinic is bombed or an abortionist is murdered the anti-abortion movement says, "shame on him" and goes on to say, "BUT, those clinics killed babies they deserved it."

Where is the outcry when abortion clinics are bombed or abortionists are killed?

Our religious leaders should be the first and loudest to decry the murder of anyone in the abortion field. Instead we get terms like "justifiable homicide" or protecting the unborn or halff-baked answers to questions about the issue such as this one from a man that I very much respect, James Dobson of Focus on the Family:

He said this on Larry King live, September 5, 2003:

KING: Do you -- what do you make of the execution of Paul Hill?

DOBSON: Well, we did not support what Paul Hill did. Obviously you can't be pro-life and pro-death at the same time. And that was a wrong thing to do. A terrible -- it was murder. And he was tried in the courts and found guilty and was executed. End of story. It is a sad thing.

We did not support what Paul Hill did? What kind of an answer is that? He should have stated emphatically that Paul Hill was a murderer and that under no circumstances should any Christian support the actions of Paul Hill or any other murderer.

Dr Dobson didn't sound too convincing did he?

Again, I not so convinced that we as Christians would denounce these kinds of things any more vocally than "peaceful" muslims. I pray you are right and I am wrong.

Immie

[Kathianne]

I know that anytime there has been an attack, "successful" or not on abortion clinics, I've heard about the wrongs of it in my Catholic Church, of which there have been 3 in the past 20 years. In each case, it has been preached that while abortion is wrong, it is the LAW, thus while morally wrong, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for murder, arson, or physical harm of any sort. Period.

[Immanuel]

I know that anytime there has been an attack, "successful" or not on abortion clinics, I've heard about the wrongs of it in my Catholic Church, of which there have been 3 in the past 20 years. In each case, it has been preached that while abortion is wrong, it is the LAW, thus while morally wrong, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for murder, arson, or physical harm of any sort. Period.

And in my church as well, but I speak of those who are the so called spokemen of the Religious Right.

Immie

[glockmail]

"hear" from them? Do we "hear" much from you? No. Is that somehow an indictment of you? The VAST majority of muslims are going to work, operating their businesses, keeping their heads down. Are you suggesting that everyday muslims need to stand up and vocally denounce those in their midst who are killers just to avoid being tarred with the same brush by ignorant bigots like YOU?

I can just see glock, without his dogs or his firearms, striding right into the middle of a group of angry and armed teenaged thugs on a rave and demanding they stop being so loud and destructive.

because if he didn't, everyone would think he was one of them! :laugh2:
This is such a bullshit reply on so many levels.
1. You do hear from me, on this forum. So the rest of the drivel is moot.
2. Like I'm supposed to move to the middle east and do that.
3. The last part is pure meaningless drivel, doesn't even make sense, par for the couse from HFM.

Well deserving of neg rep.

[glockmail]

I wish I could agree with you, but I can't.

When Paul Hill murdered John Britton (an abortionist) and James Barrett an abortion escort there was little condemnation by Christian leaders. It was more like they were patting him on the back telling him "Well done thou good and faithful servant". Eric Rudolph received support for his bombing of an abortion clinic. When a clinic is bombed or an abortionist is murdered the anti-abortion movement says, "shame on him" and goes on to say, "BUT, those clinics killed babies they deserved it."

Where is the outcry when abortion clinics are bombed or abortionists are killed?

..... Thats BS as I heard lots of people denouncing those losers. What the fuck, because EVERYBODY didn't, Christians are the same as Muslims? Give me a fucking break.

[Immanuel]

Thats BS as I heard lots of people denouncing those losers. What the fuck, because EVERYBODY didn't, Christians are the same as Muslims? Give me a fucking break.

Did you hear a lot of the "voices of the Religious Right" speak out against it and were they the loudest voices? I don't think so. But they should have been.

People like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Randall Terry? These people should have been front and center in the condemnation of these actions. Sure you heard people quietly speak out against it. I'd suspect there are some muslims that are as angry about what is happening to their faith and how the "voices of Islam" are defaming their beliefs too. Maybe we just don't hear them because we are not in their circles.

I'm no fan of Islam, but I won't condemn any peaceful muslims because of what their "voices" say. Sure, I see a heck of a lot of muslims that support this Jihad. If you watch the news it seems like the whole Islamic world supports terrorism. Maybe it does, but then maybe, just maybe it is only the loudest voices we hear and not those that are afraid to speak out. :dunno:

Then again, maybe you are right... maybe every muslim looks forward to the day s/he can strap a bomb to his or her chest and enter whatever afterlife awaits a suicide bomber.

And one more thing Glock, I never said Christians are the same as muslims. I said that the leaders, the so called voices, of Christianity were conspiciously (I think that is the word) silent when it came to denouncing these killers. The point was that we as Christians were too quiet about these travesties. That doesn't mean we supported them, but we didn't speak up as loud as we should have.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

Thats BS as I heard lots of people denouncing those losers. What the fuck, because EVERYBODY didn't, Christians are the same as Muslims? Give me a fucking break.

hahahahaha!

Whoa Nellie Lean and Mean!!!

The way to evaluate others is to get the plank out of one's own eye before trying to remove the sawdust out of anothers and not to cast the first stone unless you are free from the transgressions yourself....

For me, taking all of this in to consideration, and the fact that I have known Immanuel for 4 years now, what he just did was try to clear his own eye. I knowing him and the crowd he sort of associated himself with to a degree for quite a while, he knows what he is talking about imo, when it comes to the condemnation not being as strong as it should have been with certain sections of the religious.

I don't believe for one nanosecond Immie meant for it to come out as you have implied, that radical Christians are as evil as radical Muslims. In fact I KNOW he does not think that way.

If anything I believe he is saying that not all Muslims are radical, and that some of them probably do speak up, imo, and i question how would we know or hear about them, when none of us frequent any mosques and hear the message that they are bringing to their parishioners...ya know?

I can understand the animosity many are expressing here regarding Muslims but to me, I don't think we should make blanket statements on how all muslims think and act, because quite obviously, we really do not know for certain how all of them are acting or reacting to the radicalism that has penetrated their faith?

In Iraq these radical Islamists are killing Muslims. I would say those Muslim family members that are left alive hate the radical Islamists that left them with family members dead. And I also believe there is fear among Muslim regarding these other radicals.

jd

[LuvRPgrl]

"hear" from them? Do we "hear" much from you? No. Is that somehow an indictment of you? The VAST majority of muslims are going to work, operating their businesses, keeping their heads down. Are you suggesting that everyday muslims need to stand up and vocally denounce those in their midst who are killers just to avoid being tarred with the same brush by ignorant bigots like YOU?

I can just see glock, without his dogs or his firearms, striding right into the middle of a group of angry and armed teenaged thugs on a rave and demanding they stop being so loud and destructive.

because if he didn't, everyone would think he was one of them! :laugh2:

You dont hear from him oppossing the terrorist bombings and such stuff? WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN MAN????

"...keep their heads down. "
PRECISELY THE FUCKING PROBLEM MORON. Imagine the Christians kept their heads down when slavery was thriving in the early 1800's. No abolitionist movement and it may have taken another 50-100 years to abolish.

By the way, a VAST majority of them go to Mosque, and that is the hotbed of how they carry out their overseas activities, the terrorists I mean.

[JohnDoe]

hey immie....I did pretty good huh? I guessed fairly close!!!


jd :cheers2:

[glockmail]

Did you hear a lot of the "voices of the Religious Right" speak out against it and were they the loudest voices? I don't think so. But they should have been.....


Falwell strongly opposed abortion, but quickly and strongly denounced any violence committed against abortion doctors and clinics.http://www.faithandfreedom.us/weblog/archives/2007_05_01_archive.html

You obviously haven't been listening.

[Immanuel]

http://www.faithandfreedom.us/weblog/archives/2007_05_01_archive.html

You obviously haven't been listening.

You use someone's opinion to back up your opinions?

This is what I found on your link from Gary Randall, whoever he is.

Falwell strongly opposed abortion, but quickly and strongly denounced any violence committed against abortion doctors and clinics. And he supported programs for unwed mothers. While he sometimes used biblical language to describe the culture war, thus inflaming the secularists, he strongly and publicly rejected any notion of a theocracy.

Maybe you can actually find some posts from Mr. Falwell himself?

I don't remember any strong denunciation of the violence committed against abortionist. I'm not saying there wasn't any, but I don't remember any. And please, I am not limiting this conversation to Jerry Falwell. I am not picking on him. Most of the political members of the Religious Right, walked a fine line on this subject when they should have been denouncing anyone involved in those murders.

What I do remember from Falwell was his quick and pious condemnation of other sinners even to the point of blaming them for 9/11.

"I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats -- what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.....And I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the Pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say: you helped this happen."

After hearing something like that can you possibly believe Jerry Falwell would condemn Paul Hill by anything more than the obligatory "he's a murderer" and call Operation Rescue "thugs and theives" which he did?

But all this is besides the point. The point was not did any Christian leaders denounce abortionist killers. The point is that we condemn all muslims. We paint them with a broad brush as killers and suicide bombers because they don't scream loud enough to deafen us. Well, neither did we when it came to those who killed abortionists. How many muslims do you know? Have you ever asked them what they think of the violence? Have you ever attended any of their worship services? Have you ever done anything besides condemn them all as suicide bombers? Have you ever tried to understand them? Have you ever offered one of them the Gospel?

The point is that we are stereotyping muslims when most of us, me included, know next to nothing about them.


From JohnDoe

I don't believe for one nanosecond Immie meant for it to come out as you have implied, that radical Christians are as evil as radical Muslims. In fact I KNOW he does not think that way.

I implied no such thing. I implied only that we should have been more vocal in our condemnation of murderers AND that the stereotyping of muslims as homicidal religious fanatics when we know nothing about them is wrong. I'll go one step further, it is as idiotic as stating that all white males are racists members of the KKK.


hey immie....I did pretty good huh? I guessed fairly close!!!


jd :cheers2:

Dead on, jd, dead on.

Immie

[glockmail]

You use someone's opinion to back up your opinions?.... No, I used his statement of fact, which no rational person can deny. You then combed the piece to cherry-pick his opinions.

You have a rather silly method of arguing.

[retiredman]

You dont hear from him oppossing the terrorist bombings and such stuff? WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN MAN????

"...keep their heads down. "
PRECISELY THE FUCKING PROBLEM MORON. Imagine the Christians kept their heads down when slavery was thriving in the early 1800's. No abolitionist movement and it may have taken another 50-100 years to abolish.

By the way, a VAST majority of them go to Mosque, and that is the hotbed of how they carry out their overseas activities, the terrorists I mean.

analogies are difficult for you, LuvRPgrl, aren't they?

I am NOT suggesting that Glockmail has not been seventeen different kinds of macho cyber-brave sitting behind his computer monitor and talking tough about what muslims living in the middle east ought to do to and with the terrorists in their midst.

I AM suggesting that, if the situation were right there in front of him - in REAL life, and not just in cyber space - if glockmail - or YOU - or me - were confronted with an angry armed gang of punks on the streets, we would, I suggest, expect and hope that the police or local authorities would take care of the nuisance and we would NOT, I suggest, singlehandedly storm into the middle of that armed group and demand that they act civil.

and if the folks who opposed slavery in America had been living in a lawless land where the folks who supported slavery routinely killed their oppoistion without consequence from any civil authority, my guess is that the opposition would have been a lot less vocal. And even if that opposition had been squelched for fear of violent reprisals, that would not have made those who opposed slavery deserving of the same scorn and enmity as the slavers.

[Sir Evil]

analogies are difficult for you, LuvRPgrl, aren't they?

:gives:

Shut up ya homo, ya talk out your ass.

[Immanuel]

No, I used his statement of fact, which no rational person can deny. You then combed the piece to cherry-pick his opinions.

You have a rather silly method of arguing.


And you, my friend, must have the same definition of fact as truthmatters. :p

That would be "anything found on the net that I agree with is fact." whether it is opinion, malarky or fact.

Immie

PS: Why do you seem so upset? You are not still angry with me about the "ultra-lib" comment on that thread a few days ago are ya? :laugh2:

[glockmail]

And you, my friend, must have the same definition of fact as truthmatters. :p

That would be "anything found on the net that I agree with is fact." whether it is opinion, malarky or fact.

Immie

PS: Why do you seem so upset? You are not still angry with me about the "ultra-lib" comment on that thread a few days ago are ya? :laugh2:


I suppose that I seem upset to you because you are arguing from an emotional aspect while I am arguing from the basis of fact. Are you now claiming that Falwell did not say what I had quoted? Good luck disproving it.

[Immanuel]

I suppose that I seem upset to you because you are arguing from an emotional aspect while I am arguing from the basis of fact. Are you now claiming that Falwell did not say what I had quoted? Good luck disproving it.

Excuse me?

I didn't see a quote from Falwell posted by you and I even went back to look. Are you going to claim that Falwell did not say what I quoted him as having said? Good luck disproving it. :p

I saw an opinion of Gary Randall about Falwell's so called strong denunciation of violence against abortionists, but that was only Gary's opinion. Other than that, I missed any quote you provided from Falwell.

I can say that you and I have a difference of opinion on what "strong denunciation" means. I'm willing to accept that fact if you are. :laugh2:

Immie

[glockmail]

Excuse me?

I didn't see a quote from Falwell posted by you and I even went back to look. Are you going to claim that Falwell did not say what I quoted him as having said? Good luck disproving it. :p

I saw an opinion of Gary Randall about Falwell's so called strong denunciation of violence against abortionists, but that was only Gary's opinion. Other than that, I missed any quote you provided from Falwell.

I can say that you and I have a difference of opinion on what "strong denunciation" means. I'm willing to accept that fact if you are. :laugh2:

Immie So you are calling the author a liar. Is that your position?

[Immanuel]

So you are calling the author a liar. Is that your position?

Don't know anything about the author. I've never heard of him. Why would I call him a liar for expressing his opinion? His OPINION does not mean squat to me. He has as much right to express his opinion as I do. But it is nothing more than opinion. Personally, I do not believe one can be a liar when expressing one's opinion. One may be wrong when stating an opinion, but not a liar.

Did you find that quote from Falwell that you were talking about?

Immie

[Hagbard Celine]

Sorry bout that,

1. But all over the world we see nothing but radical Islam.
2. All over the planet, lookie here folks:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/21/world/asia/21pakistan.html?ref=world

3. Sick bastards!:poke:

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

Whatcha sorry about?

[glockmail]

Don't know anything about the author. I've never heard of him. Why would I call him a liar for expressing his opinion? His OPINION does not mean squat to me. He has as much right to express his opinion as I do. But it is nothing more than opinion. Personally, I do not believe one can be a liar when expressing one's opinion. One may be wrong when stating an opinion, but not a liar.

Did you find that quote from Falwell that you were talking about?

Immie
It wasn't his opinion. He made a statement then opined. Are you calling him a liar?

I don't make a habbit of looking up a second source until the opposition gives me a valid reason that there is a problem with the one I already quoted.

[Immanuel]

It wasn't his opinion. He made a statement then opined. Are you calling him a liar?

I don't make a habbit of looking up a second source until the opposition gives me a valid reason that there is a problem with the one I already quoted.

Well, you said you had posted a quote from Falwell. I looked for it and can't find it. And by the way, Randall's statement is still nothing more than opinion. He did not produce one fact that shows Falwell's condemnation of murderers.

{edit} Let me put it this way, Glock, Gary's statement does not become fact until he proves his statement. I can make the statement, the sky is cloudy today, but that does not make it true until I prove it by a picture of the sky and the fact that there are one or two clouds in my visual range does not make it cloudy. I might consider two clouds to be cloudy whereas you would require overcast skies. {/edit}

I'm only asking you to back up your statements about Falwell denouncing murderers of abortionists. Since you refuse to do so, I will assume that you can't.

Immie

[glockmail]

Don't know anything about the author. I've never heard of him. Why would I call him a liar for expressing his opinion? His OPINION does not mean squat to me. He has as much right to express his opinion as I do. But it is nothing more than opinion. Personally, I do not believe one can be a liar when expressing one's opinion. One may be wrong when stating an opinion, but not a liar.

Did you find that quote from Falwell that you were talking about?

Immie


Where did I claim a quote from Falwell? What I said was that you weren't listening to the conservatives that you denounce, and quoted you an example of someone who wasn't closed-minded on the subject.

Again, until you document a problem with what I quoted, I'm not going to search for a particular quote for you. But you can do it yourself at www.google.com.

[Immanuel]

Where did I claim a quote from Falwell? What I said was that you weren't listening to the conservatives that you denounce, and quoted you an example of someone who wasn't closed-minded on the subject.

Again, until you document a problem with what I quoted, I'm not going to search for a particular quote for you. But you can do it yourself at www.google.com.


Post #32

Are you now claiming that Falwell did not say what I had quoted? Good luck disproving it.

You made the claim that you quoted Falwell. You made the claim that Falwell denounced the murderers yet you provided no proof. The burden of proof lies on you, not me. I am not required to disprove your statement when you have not provided any proof.

As I said before, if you will not prove your statements, I must assume that you cannot.

Immie

[retiredman]

Post #32

Are you now claiming that Falwell did not say what I had quoted? Good luck disproving it.

You made the claim that you quoted Falwell. You made the claim that Falwell denounced the murderers yet you provided no proof. The burden of proof lies on you, not me. I am not required to disprove your statement when you have not provided any proof.

As I said before, if you will not prove your statements, I must assume that you cannot.

Immie
ouch! a bitchslap from Immie!:clap:

[glockmail]

Post #32

Are you now claiming that Falwell did not say what I had quoted? Good luck disproving it.

You made the claim that you quoted Falwell. You made the claim that Falwell denounced the murderers yet you provided no proof. The burden of proof lies on you, not me. I am not required to disprove your statement when you have not provided any proof.

As I said before, if you will not prove your statements, I must assume that you cannot.

Immie It appears that you have an problem with reading comprehension. I quoted a statement that referenced something that Fallwell said. Again, I never quoted Fallwell directly. I never met the guy.

And yet again, unless you can show some evidence that my link is false, you will have to use google yourself.

[glockmail]

ouch! a bitchslap from Immie!:clap: He slapped you again? :lol:

[Immanuel]

It appears that you have an problem with reading comprehension. I quoted a statement that referenced something that Fallwell said. Again, I never quoted Fallwell directly. I never met the guy.

And yet again, unless you can show some evidence that my link is false, you will have to use google yourself.

Wrong, it appears that you have a problem with writing. It seems pretty clear to me that you said you were quoting Falwell when in fact you quoted hearsay evidence from Gary Randall.

Since when do you have to meet a person to quote them? I directly quoted Falwell with something that he said on TV. Surely, you can do the same. I provided evidence from the lips of Jerry Falwell himself. You did not refute it, which had you provide evidence to the contrary, I would have accepted it.

I think it is evident that you are unwilling to back up your statements. Obviously, you have no idea where the burden of proof lies. I can't help you there, but know this, when someone makes a claim then generally the burden of proof lies with that person. You claimed Falwell denounced the murders of abortionists and then you put in hearsay as your "evidence". Hearsay evidence in not admissable in court.

Finally, it is not up to me to provide proof of your statements. I am not going to spend hours looking for something that you claimed when the chances are that he never said them.

Immie

[glockmail]

.... Obviously, you have no idea where the burden of proof lies. I can't help you there, but know this, when someone makes a claim then generally the burden of proof lies with that person. ....


Did you hear a lot of the "voices of the Religious Right" speak out against it and were they the loudest voices? I don't think so. But they should have been..
People like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, Randall Terry? These people should have been front and center in the condemnation of these actions. …

Exactly what I was looking for. Now I patiently await proof of your claim.

[Immanuel]

Exactly what I was looking for. Now I patiently await proof of your claim.

I already provided two quotes: one from Falwell and one from James Dobson posts 17 and 27. Yet you have provided absolutely zero to defend your claims.

I have backed up my statements and said exactly what I mean, yet you continue to hide behind hearsay. You made the distinct claim that Jerry Falwell strongly denounced the murders of abortionist. You made those claims not me. I called you on it and asked you to defend that statement and yet you will not or more accurately, cannot do so. If they so strongly denounced these murderers then it should take about 2 seconds to search the net. My guess is you have been searching ever since this discussion began and you are still searching.

Have fun.

Immie

[glockmail]

I already provided two quotes: one from Falwell and one from James Dobson posts 17 and 27. Yet you have provided absolutely zero to defend your claims.

I have backed up my statements and said exactly what I mean, yet you continue to hide behind hearsay. You made the distinct claim that Jerry Falwell strongly denounced the murders of abortionist. You made those claims not me. I called you on it and asked you to defend that statement and yet you will not or more accurately, cannot do so. If they so strongly denounced these murderers then it should take about 2 seconds to search the net. My guess is you have been searching ever since this discussion began and you are still searching.

Have fun.

Immie Here's your quote from post 17:
DOBSON: Well, we did not support what Paul Hill did. Obviously you can't be pro-life and pro-death at the same time. And that was a wrong thing to do. A terrible -- it was murder. And he was tried in the courts and found guilty and was executed. End of story. It is a sad thing. Pretty much disputes your original claim.

Have fun? Get real.

[Immanuel]

Here's your quote from post 17: Pretty much disputes your original claim.

Have fun? Get real.

No it does not. Maybe it is you that has reading comprehension problems? I very clearly stated that we should have been the loudest denouncers of these murders. My claim was that this was not a strong rebuke of the murders and it is not. I clearly stated that Dr. Dobson did not come out strong enough against the murders and I stand by those statements.

You stood there and said I was wrong. I have provided my evidence. I may be wrong and am not afraid to be so, but the proof is int the pudding. But, if you want to claim that I am wrong, YOU have to come out and show me where I am wrong. So far, your only "evidence" is hearsay.

Now get off your lazy butt and defend your remarks. Are we going to debate this or are you going to hide behind hearsay arguments? You have not provided a shread of evidence to back up your claims that Christian leaders spoke out against the murders.

I take it you are still looking for your "evidence". Keep looking and have fun.

Immie

[glockmail]

No it does not. Maybe it is you that has reading comprehension problems? I very clearly stated that we should have been the loudest denouncers of these murders. .... Dobson stated that the guy committed murder. How much louder would he have to be to please you?

Of course this is all in the context of "moderate" Islam not condeming radical Islam.

It appears that you have two different yardsticks; one for Christians, and one for Muslims.

[Immanuel]

Dobson stated that the guy committed murder. How much louder would he have to be to please you?

Of course this is all in the context of "moderate" Islam not condeming radical Islam.

It appears that you have two different yardsticks; one for Christians, and one for Muslims.

Dr Dobson (whom I very much admire) did so without any real conviction. It wasn't "This man committed murder and must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law along with anyone who assisted him." It was much more of a duck and cover reply. One of which, I feel I too was guilty of.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do hold myself and Christians to a higher standard and I am not in the least apologetic for doing so.

Why would we be speaking about moderate Islam and not radical islam? The initial discussion was that "you" painted all muslims with the same brush. I stated that we should not do so. If we are speaking of radical Christians aka "the far right" and Jerry Falwell would clearly fit that bill then we should be speaking of radical muslims. Don't you think?

Are we going to debate this? Do you have any evidence to dispute the question that I put out there? Did the Christian Right drop the ball on this issue? Are we not as guilty as the rest of the muslim community for not speaking out louder on this? I would say yes. We were as complacent as the muslim community is. That doesn't make us evil. It simply says that we failed as well.

Immie

[glockmail]

Dr Dobson (whom I very much admire) did so without any real conviction. It wasn't "This man committed murder and must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law along with anyone who assisted him." It was much more of a duck and cover reply. .... The man was already dead when he said that. What would you have him dig up his corpse and be-head it?

No the only denouncements I've heard from Muslims is that woman who was horribly mutilated by them. She's got a lot of spunk, but she's certaintly no leader of the movement.

[Immanuel]

The man was already dead when he said that. What would you have him dig up his corpse and be-head it?

No the only denouncements I've heard from Muslims is that woman who was horribly mutilated by them. She's got a lot of spunk, but she's certaintly no leader of the movement.

Do you honestly believe that we will be any louder the next time a clinic is bombed or an abortionist is murdered?

I asked you in an earlier post, have you ever met a muslim? Have you ever been to one of their worship services? Have you ever shared a meal with one? I will tell you that I feel much the same way you do about Islam, but then I also realize that comes mostly from the medias sensationalistic point of view. What do they really believe? Do they feel sorrow when Islam is dragged through the mud in the same way I do when Christians make hate-filled statements that do not represent Christ?

Immie

[retiredman]

No the only denouncements I've heard from Muslims is that woman who was horribly mutilated by them.

perhaps because you purposely refuse to listen?

http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/12/stories/2006021205281400.htm

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7030560

if you google muslims denounce violence, you get over half a million hits.

Read a few hundred and then come backand revise your statement.

[Immanuel]

perhaps because you purposely refuse to listen?

http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/12/stories/2006021205281400.htm

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7030560

if you google muslims denounce violence, you get over half a million hits.

Read a few hundred and then come backand revise your statement.

But how many of those half a million are more correctly under the search muslims refuse to denounce violence? :dunno:

Immie

[retiredman]

I would suggest that muslims - especially muslims in the middle east - refuse to denounce violence as a very practical means of self preservation.

I think there is a moral and philosophical difference between abhoring violence and ignoring the dangers to one's own life that publicly denouncing that same violence would bring.

[glockmail]

Do you honestly believe that we will be any louder the next time a clinic is bombed or an abortionist is murdered?

I asked you in an earlier post, have you ever met a muslim? Have you ever been to one of their worship services? Have you ever shared a meal with one? I will tell you that I feel much the same way you do about Islam, but then I also realize that comes mostly from the medias sensationalistic point of view. What do they really believe? Do they feel sorrow when Islam is dragged through the mud in the same way I do when Christians make hate-filled statements that do not represent Christ?

Immie

Again I'm not sure how much luder we can be. For one clinic bomber we convicted him for murder and gave hinm the death penalty. For another we hunted him down for about three years in the wilds of western NC until we finally found him and tossed him in prison. Would you have us torture, kill him, then hang his body on a bridge or drag it through the streets? Sorry but as this is a Christain Nation we don't do such things.

It seems to me that you want Christains to behave like Muslims.

As a mater of fact I used to have an engineer who worked for me who was Muslim. He never said shit denouncing the radicals. I also have a contractor I work for who is Muslim, from Iran. He simply calls them "crazy".

[glockmail]

perhaps because you purposely refuse to listen?

http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/12/stories/2006021205281400.htm

http://www.mercurynews.com/breakingnews/ci_7030560

if you google muslims denounce violence, you get over half a million hits.

Read a few hundred and then come backand revise your statement.

Out of those 500,000 hits how many are relavant to the discussion? :pee:

[retiredman]

Out of those 500,000 hits how many are relavant to the discussion? :pee:

there are enough to prove your deafness when you claim to not have heard any muslims denouncing violence..... more than enough

[Immanuel]

Again I'm not sure how much luder we can be. For one clinic bomber we convicted him for murder and gave hinm the death penalty. For another we hunted him down for about three years in the wilds of western NC until we finally found him and tossed him in prison.


"We" convicted him of murder? "We" hunted him down in the wilds of Western NC? We? No, our government did at the banshee-like screaming of the "pro-choice" crowd demanding that they be brought to justice. It was not the Pro-life movement that did all this, it was the government and don't even try to convince me that the government is on "our" side.

Immie

[glockmail]

there are enough to prove your deafness when you claim to not have heard any muslims denouncing violence..... more than enough From your first link:
"We do not fear debate or criticism,'' said one banner echoing the mood at the rally, organised by a broad coalition of Muslim groups and supported by many non-Muslim organisations such as the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) and Stop the War coalition.

It appears that these Muslims can't even sponser their own parades. They have to get liberal loonies to do it for them. Perhaps that explains why there was no "big leader" making speeches, only a bunch of unknowns carrying banners.

Funny I didn't see Dr. James Dobson being supported by liberals. He appears to have denounced violence all by himself.

[glockmail]

"We" convicted him of murder? "We" hunted him down in the wilds of Western NC? We? No, our government did at the banshee-like screaming of the "pro-choice" crowd demanding that they be brought to justice. It was not the Pro-life movement that did all this, it was the government and don't even try to convince me that the government is on "our" side.

Immie

Didn't see such action from Islamic goverments against, say, bin Laden. In fact they appear to be harboring the puke.

[Gaffer]

When the christian religion is dragged through the mud you feel sad. You announce your disapproval and you forgive. When the muslims religion is dragged through the mud they react with violence and death. They don't forgive, they condemn and try to carry out their own judgment and executions. That's the difference between the two.

Christians believe god will punish people for their transgressions. Muslims believe they should be the means of punishment.

[retiredman]

From your first link:



let me know when you've made it through the next two hundred or so...then let's talk!

[Immanuel]

Didn't see such action from Islamic goverments against, say, bin Laden. In fact they appear to be harboring the puke.

Now, with that I can agree. However, the Middle East is littered with Islamic Theocracies and the governments are almost as corrupt as our own ;) j/k

Because these governments have aided OBL does not mean that the commoners (so to speak) do. Altough, one must wonder how if the "commoners" were willing to bring him down, why he still walks freely on the face of this earth. Surely someone would turn him in.

Immie

[glockmail]

let me know when you've made it through the next two hundred or so...then let's talk! You're the one out to prove a point. Your first link failed to do so. In fact I'd say you got bitch-slapped. Now you want me to prove your point for you? You deserve a gang-bitch-slap for that. :slap: :slap: :slap:

[Immanuel]

When the christian religion is dragged through the mud you feel sad. You announce your disapproval and you forgive. When the muslims religion is dragged through the mud they react with violence and death. They don't forgive, they condemn and try to carry out their own judgment and executions. That's the difference between the two.

Christians believe god will punish people for their transgressions. Muslims believe they should be the means of punishment.

Gaffer,

Let me ask you, do you really think it is that way with every muslim or is that not just how our own government would have us see the enemy?

Immie

[glockmail]

Now, with that I can agree. However, the Middle East is littered with Islamic Theocracies and the governments are almost as corrupt as our own ;) j/k

Because these governments have aided OBL does not mean that the commoners (so to speak) do. Altough, one must wonder how if the "commoners" were willing to bring him down, why he still walks freely on the face of this earth. Surely someone would turn him in.

Immie

I didn't take you for a American Hater until now. So how is our government as corrupt as those in the ME?

[Immanuel]

I didn't take you for a American Hater until now. So how is our government as corrupt as those in the ME?

What part of j/k ;) didn't you understand?

Besides, I don't hate America, but I think our politicians are all corrupt. Last time I checked the politicians WERE NOT America... we are.

Immie

[glockmail]

What part of j/k ;) didn't you understand?

Besides, I don't hate America, but I think our politicians are all corrupt. Last time I checked the politicians WERE NOT America... we are.

Immie


Sorry I didn't see the wink for some reason and I misunderstood that that meant "just kidding".

[Hagbard Celine]

I think the politicians are a part of America. The fact that we keep electing them instead of crowding the streets and demanding change is indicative that either the corrupt politicians really are representative of American values or that the American public has become complacent and/or apathetic about the whole political process.
If you think about it, we really have no reason to demand change. It's not as if any of the issues we deal with today (besides terrorism) even affect us in our daily lives. The things our politicians bicker about are non-issues and since those of us who matter (the middle class and above) are well-fed and have shelter, nobody really has anything to complain about other than the semantics of American social life; things such as whether or not we should allow dandies to marry each other or whether or not Tammie the teenage Tokyo Rose of the Trailer Park should be allowed to abort her bastard pregnancy. We won't see any real change until everything really goes downhill. And that ain't happening anytime soon as far as I can tell.

[Gaffer]

Gaffer,

Let me ask you, do you really think it is that way with every muslim or is that not just how our own government would have us see the enemy?

Immie

Yes it is definitely that way. It has been proven through out the world. The koran teaches that anyone that mocks islam or mohammad should be put to death. islam does not teach love and forgiveness, it only teaches vengeance and death. Tolerance is only acceptable when muslims are weaker than the infidels. They are to be patient and tolerant only until they can overcome the infidels.

Are all muslims bad? No. But the religion is inherently evil. In fact it is not truly a religion but a form of government used to control the people.

[Immanuel]

Yes it is definitely that way. It has been proven through out the world. The koran teaches that anyone that mocks islam or mohammad should be put to death. islam does not teach love and forgiveness, it only teaches vengeance and death. Tolerance is only acceptable when muslims are weaker than the infidels. They are to be patient and tolerant only until they can overcome the infidels.

Are all muslims bad? No. But the religion is inherently evil. In fact it is not truly a religion but a form of government used to control the people.

You know that the Pharisees of Jesus' time bastardized (for lack of a better word) the Scriptures to the point where it was illegal to do good on the Sabbath Day. Is it not possible that this same thing has been done to the koran? I've never been able to read the koran. I've tried but find myself uncomfortable with it, same as the Book of Mormon. But, is it not possible that what were are told is taught by the koran is not truly taught by the koran?

From my experience, I would not be able to dispute what you have said, but then I will be the first to admit that my experience is quite limited when it comes to Islam.

Immie

[darin]

You know that the Pharisees of Jesus' time bastardized (for lack of a better word) the Scriptures to the point where it was illegal to do good on the Sabbath Day. Is it not possible that this same thing has been done to the koran? I've never been able to read the koran. I've tried but find myself uncomfortable with it, same as the Book of Mormon. But, is it not possible that what were are told is taught by the koran is not truly taught by the koran?

From my experience, I would not be able to dispute what you have said, but then I will be the first to admit that my experience is quite limited when it comes to Islam.

Immie

Very good point - we are never to assume our Leaders are teaching the bible from the mindset or heart of God; We must take accountability for what we're allowing ourselves to be taught. I'm unsure if Islam has provisions for patrons to challenge their "pastors", however.

[Gaffer]

You know that the Pharisees of Jesus' time bastardized (for lack of a better word) the Scriptures to the point where it was illegal to do good on the Sabbath Day. Is it not possible that this same thing has been done to the koran? I've never been able to read the koran. I've tried but find myself uncomfortable with it, same as the Book of Mormon. But, is it not possible that what were are told is taught by the koran is not truly taught by the koran?

From my experience, I would not be able to dispute what you have said, but then I will be the first to admit that my experience is quite limited when it comes to Islam.

Immie

If you can't bring yourself to read the koran then I would suggest the books of Robert Spencer. Along with the koran you also have to have the hadeth (sp) which is an interpretation of the koran. There are numerous hadeths. There are also many former muslims who have written books on islam. They are all under death threats for doing so. If you leave the muslim faith you are to be killed.

Here's Spencer's site. http://jihadwatch.org/

Would you be friends and associate with a satanist? Should they be included in meetings of religious theologians? Are they considered a threat to our society in any way? isalm is even more opposite christianity than satanists. And there are a hell of a lot more of them.

As a christian you do not judge or condemn people. islam demands it. The koran doesn't ask or suggest. It demands and orders. isalm means "to Submit". In christianity you chose, in islam you obey.

[Immanuel]

Very good point - we are never to assume our Leaders are teaching the bible from the mindset or heart of God; We must take accountability for what we're allowing ourselves to be taught. I'm unsure if Islam has provisions for patrons to challenge their "pastors", however.

I would say challenging their pastors was like placing their heads upon a platter for the world to see. But, then what do I know about Islam? ;)

Thanks for the site, Gaffer. Would I be friends with a satanist? Good question and one that would be difficult to answer as it is. That would depend on the relationship and I suppose the relationship of the Satanist to Satan. I would of course want to bring this person out of satanism and to Christ in love. Therefore, rejecting this person would be the wrong thing to do. Would I be friends with a muslim? Yes, given the opportunity, I would be friends with a muslim. I would share Christ and hope to learn something real about Islam.

Immie

[LuvRPgrl]

You know that the Pharisees of Jesus' time bastardized (for lack of a better word) the Scriptures to the point where it was illegal to do good on the Sabbath Day. Is it not possible that this same thing has been done to the koran? I've never been able to read the koran. I've tried but find myself uncomfortable with it, same as the Book of Mormon. But, is it not possible that what were are told is taught by the koran is not truly taught by the koran?

From my experience, I would not be able to dispute what you have said, but then I will be the first to admit that my experience is quite limited when it comes to Islam.

Immie

I hate to break the news to you, but someone did challenge the Jewish leaders, and he gave his life for it. Can you guess who it was?

Many,many ordinary Christians were willing, and did, give their lives for opposing slavery. I dont see the same in Islam.

By the way, you got really off topic, the thread was about the oridnary run of the mill muslims, not the leaders.

[glockmail]

You know that the Pharisees of Jesus' time bastardized (for lack of a better word) the Scriptures to the point where it was illegal to do good on the Sabbath Day. Is it not possible that this same thing has been done to the koran? I've never been able to read the koran. I've tried but find myself uncomfortable with it, same as the Book of Mormon. But, is it not possible that what were are told is taught by the koran is not truly taught by the koran?

From my experience, I would not be able to dispute what you have said, but then I will be the first to admit that my experience is quite limited when it comes to Islam.

Immie Here's an indexed version that might be helpful for ya: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

[Immanuel]

I hate to break the news to you, but someone did challenge the Jewish leaders, and he gave his life for it. Can you guess who it was?

Many,many ordinary Christians were willing, and did, give their lives for opposing slavery. I dont see the same in Islam.

By the way, you got really off topic, the thread was about the oridnary run of the mill muslims, not the leaders.

No guess needed and that is not the point of the conversation. The point is that many of us use a very broad brush to paint all muslims as terrorists. I don't believe that is right for us to do.

As for getting off topic... did you read the title of the thread? "Radical Islam is..." therefore it is not about ordinary run of the mill muslims as you say but in fact the leaders. Yet, the comments that I made were in regards to how we ALL (me included) tend to paint all muslims as radicals.

As for not seeing the same in Islam, I can agree. I don't see it either. However, I don't have a lot of contact with Islamic people and I don't really know how the ordinary run of the mill muslim thinks. Therefore, painting all muslims as terrorists is no different than painting all Christians as abortion clinic bombers.

Do you see what I am trying to say here?

Glock,

I can't look at that at the moment, but will try to get to that link later. Thanks

Immie

[LuvRPgrl]

analogies are difficult for you, LuvRPgrl, aren't they?

I am NOT suggesting that Glockmail has not been seventeen different kinds of macho cyber-brave sitting behind his computer monitor and talking tough about what muslims living in the middle east ought to do to and with the terrorists in their midst.

I AM suggesting that, if the situation were right there in front of him - in REAL life, and not just in cyber space - if glockmail - or YOU - or me - were confronted with an angry armed gang of punks on the streets, we would, I suggest, expect and hope that the police or local authorities would take care of the nuisance and we would NOT, I suggest, singlehandedly storm into the middle of that armed group and demand that they act civil.

and if the folks who opposed slavery in America had been living in a lawless land where the folks who supported slavery routinely killed their oppoistion without consequence from any civil authority, my guess is that the opposition would have been a lot less vocal. And even if that opposition had been squelched for fear of violent reprisals, that would not have made those who opposed slavery deserving of the same scorn and enmity as the slavers.

You obvioiusly dont understand what an analogy is.
What the hell does Glock have to do with armed gangs of punks.
You dont think blacks and whites were routinely murdered in the South without fear of persecution? You need to re read some history dude.
Plus, are you saying ALL muslims live in lawless lands.... ....killed their opposistion....???? Not even close
You should dump the analogy, you are embarrasing yourself and your liberal buddies.

[LuvRPgrl]

I would suggest that muslims - especially muslims in the middle east - refuse to denounce violence as a very practical means of self preservation.

I think there is a moral and philosophical difference between abhoring violence and ignoring the dangers to one's own life that publicly denouncing that same violence would bring.


Can you make up your mind? in two posts above the one I quoted here, you are providing "proof" that glock isnt listening because you show links that prove that muslims are speaking out against the violence, then you claim they cant for fear of safety. So which is it, are they or arent they?

[LuvRPgrl]

Yes it is definitely that way. It has been proven through out the world. The koran teaches that anyone that mocks islam or mohammad should be put to death. islam does not teach love and forgiveness, it only teaches vengeance and death. Tolerance is only acceptable when muslims are weaker than the infidels. They are to be patient and tolerant only until they can overcome the infidels.

Are all muslims bad? No. But the religion is inherently evil. In fact it is not truly a religion but a form of government used to control the people.

What can you expect from a religion founded/lead by a pedophile war monger?

[LuvRPgrl]

No guess needed and that is not the point of the conversation. The point is that many of us use a very broad brush to paint all muslims as terrorists. I don't believe that is right for us to do.

As for getting off topic... did you read the title of the thread? "Radical Islam is..." therefore it is not about ordinary run of the mill muslims as you say but in fact the leaders. Yet, the comments that I made were in regards to how we ALL (me included) tend to paint all muslims as radicals.

As for not seeing the same in Islam, I can agree. I don't see it either. However, I don't have a lot of contact with Islamic people and I don't really know how the ordinary run of the mill muslim thinks. Therefore, painting all muslims as terrorists is no different than painting all Christians as abortion clinic bombers.

Do you see what I am trying to say here?

Glock,

I can't look at that at the moment, but will try to get to that link later. Thanks

Immie

The title is "radical Islam is" , which by itself is nonsensical. His first post links how average muslims were supporting one of the radicals.

Then MFM brings up that the ordinary musliims are in fact speaking out against Radicals, and away it went, then the leaders were brought up. Leaders of non radicals was never brought up in the beginning.

Also, nobody is claiming all muslims, or most, are terrorists. We just claim they bear some of the guilt by not speaking out against them. Can you quote someone hear claiming all muslims are terrorists?

[retiredman]

Can you make up your mind? in two posts above the one I quoted here, you are providing "proof" that glock isnt listening because you show links that prove that muslims are speaking out against the violence, then you claim they cant for fear of safety. So which is it, are they or arent they?

you can't be that thick....some are.... some are not and the main reason they are not is their fear of reprisal. some who live in less lawless lands are not as worried about reprisals as others. Do you live in some digital yes/no...black/white...good/bad universe? Does everything have to be one way or the other? Are there any shades of anything where you live?

[Immanuel]

Also, nobody is claiming all muslims, or most, are terrorists. We just claim they bear some of the guilt by not speaking out against them. Can you quote someone hear claiming all muslims are terrorists?

And yet, what I was trying to say and you seem to have missed it, is that we Christians are just as guilty.

You brought up slavery and said that some Christians were opposed to slavery. This is true, but the vast majority of Americans really could have cared less about slavery. The Civil War was not fought over slavery, it was fought over state's rights and most of the North really didn't care whether blacks were free or not.

The same thing goes in respect to the people who murder abortionists. IMHO We Christians didn't denounce these people. The vast majority of Christians kept quiet about the killings and those who are our "voices" either side-stepped the issue or actively promoted it. Now, granted these killings do not come close to the magnitude of the Islamic war against us, but you get the idea.

And yes, we do hear some Christians speak out against the killings, but WE are part of that community. Maybe the reason we don't hear moderate muslims speak out against the radicals is that we a) don't listen or b) just don't communicate with them in the first place or c) as MFM said, they are just too darned afraid to open their mouths.

Immie

[Gaffer]

And yet, what I was trying to say and you seem to have missed it, is that we Christians are just as guilty.

You brought up slavery and said that some Christians were opposed to slavery. This is true, but the vast majority of Americans really could have cared less about slavery. The Civil War was not fought over slavery, it was fought over state's rights and most of the North really didn't care whether blacks were free or not.

The same thing goes in respect to the people who murder abortionists. IMHO We Christians didn't denounce these people. The vast majority of Christians kept quiet about the killings and those who are our "voices" either side-stepped the issue or actively promoted it. Now, granted these killings do not come close to the magnitude of the Islamic war against us, but you get the idea.

And yes, we do hear some Christians speak out against the killings, but WE are part of that community. Maybe the reason we don't hear moderate muslims speak out against the radicals is that we a) don't listen or b) just don't communicate with them in the first place or c) as MFM said, they are just too darned afraid to open their mouths.

Immie

I'm not even a christian and I get so tired of seeing this comparison of islam to christianity. There is no comparison. It's apples and oranges. islam is a ideology based on evil. It's a death cult. With christianity you have to go back decades to find something one person did. and you have to go back hundred of years to find things down en mass. With islam you can read todays news to find multiple examples. All you are doing is making excuses for the evil done by islam and being an apologist. It's called dhimmitude.

All of islam is evil, its just a matter of degree as to how much the followers take action. Those that do not practice islam full time are considered apostates by the rest. You don't have to hate all muslims but you do have to be aware of the threat they all represent.

[LuvRPgrl]

And yet, what I was trying to say and you seem to have missed it, is that we Christians are just as guilty.

You brought up slavery and said that some Christians were opposed to slavery. This is true, but the vast majority of Americans really could have cared less about slavery. The Civil War was not fought over slavery, it was fought over state's rights and most of the North really didn't care whether blacks were free or not.

The same thing goes in respect to the people who murder abortionists. IMHO We Christians didn't denounce these people. The vast majority of Christians kept quiet about the killings and those who are our "voices" either side-stepped the issue or actively promoted it. Now, granted these killings do not come close to the magnitude of the Islamic war against us, but you get the idea.

And yes, we do hear some Christians speak out against the killings, but WE are part of that community. Maybe the reason we don't hear moderate muslims speak out against the radicals is that we a) don't listen or b) just don't communicate with them in the first place or c) as MFM said, they are just too darned afraid to open their mouths.

Immie

Your attempt at re inventing history just doesnt wash. Of course the civil war was about states rights, AND slavery. The states felt the feds didnt have the right to tell them slavery was illegal,

and bullshit on most Americans not caring. Christians were rising up in huge numbers opposed to it and the tide was growing, other wise the feds wouldnt have taken the stance they did. Plain and simple. You think the feds ever do something THAT RADICAL OUT OF NOBLE INTENTIONS????
Why do you think the feds didnt show up to support school intergration until the sixties, because by then public sentiment was turning the tide towards accepting it.

and for abortion, the VAST majority of Christians did not remain silent. If you want to compare the way Muslims today are reacting towards the terrorists with how the Christians are/were reacting to abortion cllinic killers, then I can understand why you are also deluded to believe the civil war wasnt over slavery.

[Immanuel]

Your attempt at re inventing history just doesnt wash. Of course the civil war was about states rights, AND slavery. The states felt the feds didnt have the right to tell them slavery was illegal,

and bullshit on most Americans not caring. Christians were rising up in huge numbers opposed to it and the tide was growing, other wise the feds wouldnt have taken the stance they did. Plain and simple. You think the feds ever do something THAT RADICAL OUT OF NOBLE INTENTIONS????
Why do you think the feds didnt show up to support school intergration until the sixties, because by then public sentiment was turning the tide towards accepting it.

and for abortion, the VAST majority of Christians did not remain silent. If you want to compare the way Muslims today are reacting towards the terrorists with how the Christians are/were reacting to abortion cllinic killers, then I can understand why you are also deluded to believe the civil war wasnt over slavery.

{yawn}

I don't know where you get your deluded since of history, but that is all it is.

Christians were NOT out in mass to free the slaves. Lincoln did not free the slaves because it was the right thing to do. Lincoln freed the slaves because he needed soldiers, black soldiers, to help him win the war.

Yes, there were some abolitionists who correctly believed that slavery was a terrible wrong. And Yes, they stood up as a minority (in much the same way that anti-abortionists stand up against abortion today) to protest slavery. But they were but a handful of people. Most northerners didn't care about the issue. They believed that the black man was below them and were better off being slaves rather than still living on that God foresaken continent, Africa.

And maybe you need to take some meds. You seem to have gotten a bit hyper on the issue.

Oh, and by the way, in case you didn't realize it there were a heck of a lot of Christians South of the Mason Dixon line that fought to keep the institution of slavery.

As for your comparison of Christians and Muslims today. If you were to try and read what I actually said, you might learn something. I didn't say Christians are not opposed to abortion and that they did not speak out against the killers. I said we were not loud enough! I also said that we do not know for certain that muslims are not speaking out against the terrorist. I said maybe, like us, they just aren't speaking loud enough! or maybe we just aren't listening. I didn't say this but maybe they are speaking out and our government and our media aren't properly informing us of this.

Immie

[LuvRPgrl]

{yawn}

I don't know where you get your deluded since of history, but that is all it is.

Christians were NOT out in mass to free the slaves. Lincoln did not free the slaves because it was the right thing to do. Lincoln freed the slaves because he needed soldiers, black soldiers, to help him win the war.

Yes, there were some abolitionists who correctly believed that slavery was a terrible wrong. And Yes, they stood up as a minority (in much the same way that anti-abortionists stand up against abortion today) to protest slavery. But they were but a handful of people. Most northerners didn't care about the issue. They believed that the black man was below them and were better off being slaves rather than still living on that God foresaken continent, Africa.

And maybe you need to take some meds. You seem to have gotten a bit hyper on the issue.

Oh, and by the way, in case you didn't realize it there were a heck of a lot of Christians South of the Mason Dixon line that fought to keep the institution of slavery.

As for your comparison of Christians and Muslims today. If you were to try and read what I actually said, you might learn something. I didn't say Christians are not opposed to abortion and that they did not speak out against the killers. I said we were not loud enough! I also said that we do not know for certain that muslims are not speaking out against the terrorist. I said maybe, like us, they just aren't speaking loud enough! or maybe we just aren't listening. I didn't say this but maybe they are speaking out and our government and our media aren't properly informing us of this.

Immie

Lincoln freed the slaves cuz he needed soldiers? hahahhahahahhahahah

CLUE, blacks in the north were already free.
Blacks in the south who wanted to fight for freedom didnt need Lincolns proclamation.

How does a Christian speak LOUDER? By making their statements in BOLD or by YELLING into the mic, when Dobson is interviewed instead of just talking.
hahhahahahha, yea, didnt speak loud enough, get real

[Gaffer]

{yawn}

I don't know where you get your deluded since of history, but that is all it is.

Christians were NOT out in mass to free the slaves. Lincoln did not free the slaves because it was the right thing to do. Lincoln freed the slaves because he needed soldiers, black soldiers, to help him win the war.

Yes, there were some abolitionists who correctly believed that slavery was a terrible wrong. And Yes, they stood up as a minority (in much the same way that anti-abortionists stand up against abortion today) to protest slavery. But they were but a handful of people. Most northerners didn't care about the issue. They believed that the black man was below them and were better off being slaves rather than still living on that God foresaken continent, Africa.

And maybe you need to take some meds. You seem to have gotten a bit hyper on the issue.

Oh, and by the way, in case you didn't realize it there were a heck of a lot of Christians South of the Mason Dixon line that fought to keep the institution of slavery.

As for your comparison of Christians and Muslims today. If you were to try and read what I actually said, you might learn something. I didn't say Christians are not opposed to abortion and that they did not speak out against the killers. I said we were not loud enough! I also said that we do not know for certain that muslims are not speaking out against the terrorist. I said maybe, like us, they just aren't speaking loud enough! or maybe we just aren't listening. I didn't say this but maybe they are speaking out and our government and our media aren't properly informing us of this.

Immie

Lincoln freed the slaves to keep Britain out of the war. The British were considering siding with the Confederacy. As Lincoln declared all slaves free in the US and as the Confederate States were against freeing the slaves the British, who had abolished slavery many years before had to withdraw their support.

Also there is a country in Africa called Liberia. It was started by former slaves from the US. Any former slaves that wanted to go back to Africa were allowed too and many went to form this country. Most preferred not to leave.

Most of the soldiers in the south were not fighting for slavery. They were fighting for states rights. The right to tell the federal government to piss off.

The muslims are NOT speaking out, loud or not. The core of the koran is to subjugate the world. Anyone that speaks out against that is an apostate. Comparing christians and muslims is comparing apples and oranges.

[Kathianne]

Lincoln freed the slaves to keep Britain out of the war. The British were considering siding with the Confederacy. As Lincoln declared all slaves free in the US and as the Confederate States were against freeing the slaves the British, who had abolished slavery many years before had to withdraw their support.

Also there is a country in Africa called Liberia. It was started by former slaves from the US. Any former slaves that wanted to go back to Africa were allowed too and many went to form this country. Most preferred not to leave.

Most of the soldiers in the south were not fighting for slavery. They were fighting for states rights. The right to tell the federal government to piss off.

The muslims are NOT speaking out, loud or not. The core of the koran is to subjugate the world. Anyone that speaks out against that is an apostate. Comparing christians and muslims is comparing apples and oranges.
While I don't think it was a 'primary concern' you certainly are correct. I'm shocked that this was not something I've come across in my readings. Thanks!

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Fo0n_qc0SrMJ:www.voanews.com/specialenglish/archive/2005-03/a-2005-03-17-1-1.cfm+emancipation+proclamation+britain+war&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

[Immanuel]

Lincoln freed the slaves to keep Britain out of the war. The British were considering siding with the Confederacy. As Lincoln declared all slaves free in the US and as the Confederate States were against freeing the slaves the British, who had abolished slavery many years before had to withdraw their support.

Also there is a country in Africa called Liberia. It was started by former slaves from the US. Any former slaves that wanted to go back to Africa were allowed too and many went to form this country. Most preferred not to leave.

Most of the soldiers in the south were not fighting for slavery. They were fighting for states rights. The right to tell the federal government to piss off.

Most of that I have already said. I did not state anything about England because I did not know that and Liberia has nothing to do with this discussion so far. You'll get no argument from me on this part. Although LuvRPgrl seems to disagree with us. See the post #88.

LuvRPgrl is entitled to her(?) opinion right or wrong. I don't know her at all and am refusing to argue with her as she seems to be very sensitive about the issue. I take it she is a Yankee from the sounds of it with with the delusional beliefs that the Yankees were saints and those nasty Rebs were Satan spawn.

I am a Christian. I did not blame Christians for not speaking out more. I simply hold us to a higher standard and emphatically state that we should not remain hypocritical on the issue of abortion. If it is wrong to kill an unborn child then it is also wrong to kill an abortionist. Dr. Dobson, who I very much respect, swept it under the table. He claimed it was murder and left it at that. As a Pro-lifer he should have stood up and said, "this man committed murder and deserves to be tried and convicted of his crimes. What he did is just as dispicable as the killing of an unborn child." He then should have called on all Christians to stop the violence and the hate. He and other Christian political figures (Falwell, Robertson etc) are our voices to the world. They are the ones that we let represent us. They should have been out there representing us.

That is all that I am saying. We spoke out but we did not do so with conviction.

LuvRPgrl thinks we did speak out about it and I will admit we did a little, but we did not by any means whatsoever speak out as harshly against the murder of abortionists as we do against the killing of unborn children. Not anywhere close!

As for muslims, you don't hear them. Are you even listening? Or have you closed a deaf ear and your heart to a people you are afraid of and don't understand?


The muslims are NOT speaking out, loud or not. The core of the koran is to subjugate the world. Anyone that speaks out against that is an apostate. Comparing christians and muslims is comparing apples and oranges.

I've said this once before and I will say it again. You are stereotyping muslims. Usually that is not a good idea. That is like saying all Christians are racist because most white supremist groups claim their beliefs come from the Bible or all liberals support abortion on demand and personally sacrifice human infants for pleasure on Halloween.

I've also said that I haven't heard muslims speak out, but that DOES NOT mean that they are not. There could be several reasons for their silence: 1) they are more afraid of the radical members of their community than they are of us, 2) Our government and media could be keeping the message bottled up. They would not want good Americans to see that muslims are not so different than other peoples, 3) maybe they are speaking out and you and I are just not listening. 4) maybe you are right and the koran teaches "Kill the infidel" and they all believe it. I could not even begin to name all the reasons that might keep them from speaking out.

Again, I have not heard it either, but I WILL NOT condemn billions of people simply because I have not heard their voices. I have no idea why they are so silent, but they are not Christian and I am not muslim. I do not hold them to the same standards that I hold us too.

You obviously have something against muslims. I don't know what that is and I won't even try to defend them, but I do not believe that they the devils you make them ALL out to be.

Immie

PS LuvPRgrl if you are male please do not take offense at my thinking you are a girl. There is no slight intended in either aspect.

[Immanuel]

Lincoln freed the slaves cuz he needed soldiers? hahahhahahahhahahah

CLUE, blacks in the north were already free.
Blacks in the south who wanted to fight for freedom didnt need Lincolns proclamation.

How does a Christian speak LOUDER? By making their statements in BOLD or by YELLING into the mic, when Dobson is interviewed instead of just talking.
hahhahahahha, yea, didnt speak loud enough, get real

Recanted as it is not even worth argueing with this person.

Immie

[LuvRPgrl]

I am a guy, my wife is from RP, filipino. I do not, and never will take offence to such an assumption. In fact, I cannot be offended at all.
I am puzzled you would claim its not worth it to argue with me on this. I have said nothing offensive or even personal about you. And I am not sensitive about this topic or anyother for that matter. I have far too much life experience to allow that. I am passionate about things however.
I have nothing against muslims per se, except their lack of speaking out against terrorism in the name of their religion. I have never had anything against them previous to 9/11.
Sorry, but if you bothered to actually read the declarations by the southern states, one by one they all stated emphatically that slavery was one of the, if not the, main reasons for ceceding.
ANd you are also wrong about thinking Im a yank. I grew up and continue to live in southern California, more specifically San Diego and LA. I have no personal vested investment for either side, except which is true, and the fact that slavery, particularly at that late date in history, was such an abomination and so utterly obviously an evil practice.
I have no clue why you would think I think the yanks were saints and the rebs were evil. I merely pointed out how the Christians spoke out loud and clear against slavery, and in fact, all the other points about the civil war are actually quite irrelevant to the topic of the thread.
As for holding CHristians to a higher standard, thats all fine and dandy in your own personal life, but when discussing their responsability to speak out against something, and comparing it to another group, ALL GROUPS should be held to the same standard.
ANd then to say we should be speaking out against killing doctors with as much fervor as speaking out against abortion, its ridiculous. How many abortionists have been murdered>\? How many abortions occur daily. ? Its not even possible for people to speak out against murder of an abortionist at the same level as they speak out against abortion.
I really, honestly, and without an agenda, see that your ability to compare situations fairly, is quite limited. If you can actually make that statement about comparing the fervor of protest against murder of an abortionist, with protest against abortion, without immediately seeing the fallacy of it, shows without doubt, a serious lack of critical skills needed to evaluate such things. This would also lead to many other erroneous conclusions.
I do not say this to intend to slight or make you look bad or inferior, I simply state it as "matter of fact". We all have our shortcomings, and I think that is one of yours.

WIfey is calling, gotta go, more later. take care



Most of that I have already said. I did not state anything about England because I did not know that and Liberia has nothing to do with this discussion so far. You'll get no argument from me on this part. Although LuvRPgrl seems to disagree with us. See the post #88.

LuvRPgrl is entitled to her(?) opinion right or wrong. I don't know her at all and am refusing to argue with her as she seems to be very sensitive about the issue. I take it she is a Yankee from the sounds of it with with the delusional beliefs that the Yankees were saints and those nasty Rebs were Satan spawn.

I am a Christian. I did not blame Christians for not speaking out more. I simply hold us to a higher standard and emphatically state that we should not remain hypocritical on the issue of abortion. If it is wrong to kill an unborn child then it is also wrong to kill an abortionist. Dr. Dobson, who I very much respect, swept it under the table. He claimed it was murder and left it at that. As a Pro-lifer he should have stood up and said, "this man committed murder and deserves to be tried and convicted of his crimes. What he did is just as dispicable as the killing of an unborn child." He then should have called on all Christians to stop the violence and the hate. He and other Christian political figures (Falwell, Robertson etc) are our voices to the world. They are the ones that we let represent us. They should have been out there representing us.

That is all that I am saying. We spoke out but we did not do so with conviction.

LuvRPgrl thinks we did speak out about it and I will admit we did a little, but we did not by any means whatsoever speak out as harshly against the murder of abortionists as we do against the killing of unborn children. Not anywhere close!

As for muslims, you don't hear them. Are you even listening? Or have you closed a deaf ear and your heart to a people you are afraid of and don't understand?



I've said this once before and I will say it again. You are stereotyping muslims. Usually that is not a good idea. That is like saying all Christians are racist because most white supremist groups claim their beliefs come from the Bible or all liberals support abortion on demand and personally sacrifice human infants for pleasure on Halloween.

I've also said that I haven't heard muslims speak out, but that DOES NOT mean that they are not. There could be several reasons for their silence: 1) they are more afraid of the radical members of their community than they are of us, 2) Our government and media could be keeping the message bottled up. They would not want good Americans to see that muslims are not so different than other peoples, 3) maybe they are speaking out and you and I are just not listening. 4) maybe you are right and the koran teaches "Kill the infidel" and they all believe it. I could not even begin to name all the reasons that might keep them from speaking out.

Again, I have not heard it either, but I WILL NOT condemn billions of people simply because I have not heard their voices. I have no idea why they are so silent, but they are not Christian and I am not muslim. I do not hold them to the same standards that I hold us too.

You obviously have something against muslims. I don't know what that is and I won't even try to defend them, but I do not believe that they the devils you make them ALL out to be.

Immie

PS LuvPRgrl if you are male please do not take offense at my thinking you are a girl. There is no slight intended in either aspect.

[Immanuel]

I am a guy, my wife is from RP, filipino. I do not, and never will take offence to such an assumption. In fact, I cannot be offended at all.

{edited for brevity}

My reply refers to the entire post above.

Okay, good, now that we have that out of the way, maybe we can actually discuss the issue.

1) I only brought the gender thing up because I don't know anything about you and did not want to assume one way or the other.

2) I am pleased to meet you.

3) It was not worth arguing with you, because you seemed to jump down my throat without even discussing the issue. We have a difference of opinion and it is nothing more than that. I think your wrong, but I am more than glad to hear your opinion and discuss it freely. I take exception to your insinuation that I am an idiot for no other reason than we disagree.

4) As for the reasons behind the Civil War no one can deny (and I never did) that slavery was an issue, but the issue went much further than that. The issue was whether or not the North could dictate to the South. In fact, it is much the same today. We are arguing over abortion rights. The left claims we Christians are dictating to them what they can do with their bodies. This isn't bounded by state boundaries, but the issue is similar.

5) I was born in Santa Maria, Ca and grew up in SF Bay Area. We were basically neighbors. ;) Although, I do have ancestral ties to the South. My Grandmother was related in some way to Jefferson Davis. He was a Great Uncle, I believe. BTW that does not mean I support slavery. :)

6) No where did I claim slavery was not an abomination. On this you and I very much agree.

7) As for Christians speaking out loud and clear against slavery, how pray tell, do you reconcile this with the fact that there were as many (population percentage wise) Christians in the South as there were in the North? I am certain, many "Christians" held slaves as well.

8) I still very much disagree with you about speaking out louder (with more conviction) against the murders of abortionists. You see, we look hypocritical when we sweep it under the table. The numbers do not matter. One murder is just as bad as the next.

9) These are the kind of personal attacks from you that made it seem useless to have a discussion with you:


I really, honestly, and without an agenda, see that your ability to compare situations fairly, is quite limited. If you can actually make that statement about comparing the fervor of protest against murder of an abortionist, with protest against abortion, without immediately seeing the fallacy of it, shows without doubt, a serious lack of critical skills needed to evaluate such things. This would also lead to many other erroneous conclusions.

We've got a difference of opinion and I am sure my critical thinking abilities are up to par with your's since I will actually listen to other people's point of view and analyze it without simply writing it off. I do not say this to intend to slight or make you look bad or inferior, I simply state it as "matter of fact". We all have our shortcomings, and I think that is one of yours. :poke:

Immie

PS I am open to hearing what you believe. Who knows maybe you will convince me. It wouldn't be the first time I changed my mind on an issue from discussion on one of these boards.