Religion's hypocrisy

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

How many thousands of years ago did your Creator create man and all that we know today? Several thousand, several hundred thousand?

I know it is difficult to question faith for believers, but how does one of such faith explain the discovery of a young boy's skeleton that has been scientifically dated to be over 1 million years old...The Turkana Boy (http://www.answers.com/topic/turkana-boy). His discovery in 1984 has one largely unpublicized, especially in the Christian and Muslim world, as it throws fuel on the fires that debunk creationism, and supports evolution.

[Roopull]

Not all believers are creationists. In fact, I'd wager that creationists are a very vocal and very small minority.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Are you a believer? How do you square the million year old boy with the beginning, as God (Mohammad et al) started it? (drop the creationism if that is what bothers you about the discussion)

[Dilloduck]

How many thousands of years ago did your Creator create man and all that we know today? Several thousand, several hundred thousand?

I know it is difficult to question faith for believers, but how does one of such faith explain the discovery of a young boy's skeleton that has been scientifically dated to be over 1 million years old...The Turkana Boy (http://www.answers.com/topic/turkana-boy). His discovery in 1984 has one largely unpublicized, especially in the Christian and Muslim world, as it throws fuel on the fires that debunk creationism, and supports evolution.

Personally? I don't feel a need to sweat the small stuff that is of no significance to the most important message of Christianity

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Thank you for your opinion....interesting. (I will leave your reply alone for now, and let other's respond)

[darin]

Better yet - how would you explain a mostly-very-closely Modern Human Skeleton being dated at 1.6 Million years? ;)

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Of course, it's a fake.....because it is easier to question it's authenticity than to question faith, right?

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

I hope you read the sarcasm in my previous post.

[darin]

Of course, it's a fake.....because it is easier to question it's authenticity than to question faith, right?

Talk about Faith? Evolution requires HUGE - I mean TONS - Bushels - Over-and-beyond common-sense-amounts of Faith. Intelligent Design however, is MORE logical, and more evident.

[Hagbard Celine]

Better yet - how would you explain a mostly-very-closely Modern Human Skeleton being dated at 1.6 Million years? ;)

If you would read the article, it's not a "mostly-very-closely Modern Human." A layman can look at the skull and easily gleam that information from it. It's either a homo ergaster or homo erectus--one of homo sapiens' evolutionary ancestors. I've often entertained the idea that some of you guys might be ergasters or erectuses, most definately neanderthals, but I happen to be a sapiens and my species emerged approximately 300,000 years ago, not one million years ago. That needed to be said. Carry on fellas! :dev3:

[Hagbard Celine]

Talk about Faith? Evolution requires HUGE - I mean TONS - Bushels - Over-and-beyond common-sense-amounts of Faith. Intelligent Design however, is MORE logical, and more evident.

You can't bring logic into the equation when faith is required for even the initial entertainment of a hypothesis. Intelligent Design requires the "believer"--and I say "believer" because it's based on faith, not facts gleamed from the physical world--to even begin to accept the idea. Intelligent Design's foundational element is an all-powerful creator who no one has ever seen and who has never left any evidence that he/she even exists. How can you say this is more logical than the theory of evolution with a straight face? :wine:

[theHawk]

How many thousands of years ago did your Creator create man and all that we know today? Several thousand, several hundred thousand?

I know it is difficult to question faith for believers, but how does one of such faith explain the discovery of a young boy's skeleton that has been scientifically dated to be over 1 million years old...The Turkana Boy (http://www.answers.com/topic/turkana-boy). His discovery in 1984 has one largely unpublicized, especially in the Christian and Muslim world, as it throws fuel on the fires that debunk creationism, and supports evolution.


When I die and meet my Creator I'll ask him. Untill then I really couldn't give a damn.

[darin]

If you would read the article, it's not a "mostly-very-closely Modern Human." A layman can look at the skull and easily gleam that information from it. It's either a homo ergaster or homo erectus--one of homo sapiens' evolutionary ancestors. I've often entertained the idea that some of you guys might be ergasters or erectuses, most definately neanderthals, but I happen to be a sapiens and my species emerged approximately 300,000 years ago, not one million years ago. That needed to be said. Carry on fellas! :dev3:

But it is mostly-modern-human. Everytime somebody finds a varient from 'the norm' they wanna say it's some 'ape-man'. I've read that article, and articles explaining why people who wrote THAT article are wrong.


You can't bring logic into the equation when faith is required for even the initial entertainment of a hypothesis. Intelligent Design requires the "believer"--and I say "believer" because it's based on faith, not facts gleamed from the physical world--to even begin to accept the idea. Intelligent Design's foundational element is an all-powerful creator who no one has ever seen and who has never left any evidence that he/she even exists. How can you say this is more logical than the theory of evolution with a straight face? :wine:

Because Evolution requires a HUGE amount of faith. The 'opposite' of having creation started through somebody's will starts like this:

"Just by Chance....live evolved from non-life. We can't say how it happened, nor can we reproduce the phenominon, nor can we observe it happening around us...but we 'just got lucky' and chemicals decided to evolve into life..."

Wow.

That's illogical.

However.

"God created life..." Makes more sense on several levels. First, because I've experienced God. I know He's real. Second, because it's absurd to say life somehow 'happened by chance'.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Talk about Faith? Evolution requires HUGE - I mean TONS - Bushels - Over-and-beyond common-sense-amounts of Faith. Intelligent Design however, is MORE logical, and more evident.

Your opinion is appreciated.....ID requires the ability to seperate science from the Biblical story of Genesis:


001:001 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

001:002 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

001:003 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

001:004 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

001:005 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

001:006 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

001:007 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

001:008 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

001:009 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

001:010 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

001:011 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

Etc, etc.....

I personally like the stories from the native American Indians trying to explain their beginnings


Of a time long ago, these things are said…

The story tells the story of creation of the universe and traces the evolution of life of the Navajos (humans) through 4 underworlds to this present world, the 5th world. They came up through each world with the help of the gods, evolved and became human.

Before anything, there was the First World, which was red (some versions say black). It was inhabited by the Holy people and insects (the Air Spirit People). Because the Air Spirit People misbehaved and did immoral things, they were unwelcome wherever they went. So having nowhere to go, they circled upward and ascended thru a hole in the sky to the next higher world, the Second World.

This world was blue. In the Second World they encountered the Swallow People (birds) and for some time lived in harmony. The Air Spirit People once again did immoral things (they had affairs with the wives of some of the Swallow people) and once again, they were kicked out of this world. Again, they flew high in the sky and went thru a hole in the ceiling of the sky to the next world, the Third World.

The Third World was yellow and was inhabited by the Yellow Grasshopper People. Still, there was yet no people, plants or animals, mountains or waters. This world was flat and had yellow countryside. Again, the Air Spirit People lived in harmony for a while with the Grasshopper people. But soon they were up to their old habits, (having affairs, acting immorally). The Grasshopper people told them to leave, as they seemed to create disorder wherever they went. So the insect people took flight once again, but this time four Grasshopper people came with them.

Why is it that your story is correct, and their's is wrong?

[theHawk]

You can't bring logic into the equation when faith is required for even the initial entertainment of a hypothesis. Intelligent Design requires the "believer"--and I say "believer" because it's based on faith, not facts gleamed from the physical world--to even begin to accept the idea. Intelligent Design's foundational element is an all-powerful creator who no one has ever seen and who has never left any evidence that he/she even exists. How can you say this is more logical than the theory of evolution with a straight face? :wine:

Actually ID is based on facts from the physical world. It challenges the idea of random mutations (darwinian evolution) by showing that all living things, even the simplest single cell lifeforms, are made up of such complex individual components that it is mathmatically impossible for all these components to have sprung up all at the same time via random mutations. Because all of these components within a lifeform are needed for its survival, if just one happened to spring up it would be useless without the others.
So, quite the contrary, ID is based soley on scientific facts of this physical world. Its the conclusion that says it must be of "Intelligent Design", not the method.

[darin]

Why is it that your story is correct, and their's is wrong?

Maybe I'll ask you that same question? ;) Why is evolution (which actually doesn't address creation/start of life, iirc) correct, and ID is wrong? You have MORE FAITH in the leaps and bounds of 'logic' required to believe it. Simple as that.

:)

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

ID is based soley on scientific facts of this physical world. Its the conclusion that says it must be of "Intelligent Design", not the method.

Like the fact that a Grand Wizard waved his magic wand and made everything in the universe. (I am not intending to offend anyone with this statement, but that is the way I picture the creationist theory)

[darin]

Like the fact that a Grand Wizard waved his magic wand and made everything in the universe.

Dude - do you realize it's a logical fallacy to use Appeal to Ridicule? Each time you and others simply try to make YOUR point look better through ad hominem or red herring (trying to shift the convo so people have to prove GOD as well), you actually look WORSE.

[theHawk]

Like the fact that a Grand Wizard waved his magic wand and made everything in the universe. (I am not intending to offend anyone with this statement, but that is the way I picture the creationist theory)

As opposed to ....your vision of how it all came to be? Enlighten us...

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Dude - do you realize it's a logical fallacy to use Appeal to Ridicule? Each time you and others simply try to make YOUR point look better through ad hominem or red herring (trying to shift the convo so people have to prove GOD as well), you actually look WORSE.

...but in the book of Genesis, God said, "Let there be light...." etc....I am not insulting or attacking, just saying that I picture the story as a Grand Wizard waving his hands and "making it so."

I don't care how you percieve me, that is not what this discussion was intended to do. It was intended to provoke thought, and discuss in a civil manner. BLIND Faith (in anything) without thought and challenge is a pretty empty shell, and a very dangerous place to stand in my opinion.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

As opposed to ....your vision of how it all came to be? Enlighten us...

I don't know how it all came to be....all I know is that this physical realm exists (due to whatever reason you need to explain it) and when we die the physical realm continues, and as sentient beings we have many diffferent ideas of what happens afterward.

The hypocrisy comes in, when one belief calls the other blasphemous, and to challenge the popular belief of the culture, time or populace typically labels one as a heretic.

[darin]

...but in the book of Genesis, God said, "Let there be light...." etc....I am not insulting or attacking, just saying that I picture the story as a Grand Wizard waving his hands and "making it so."

I don't care how you percieve me, that is not what this discussion was intended to do. It was intended to provoke thought, and discuss in a civil manner. BLIND Faith (in anything) without thought and challenge is a pretty empty shell, and a very dangerous place to stand in my opinion.

Oh come-on now. You know you are poking-fun by using the term Grand Wizard.

Again with the red herring. Nowhere before your last reply had ANYONE spoke of 'blind faith'. Now you're trying to shift the discussion. ;)

If you want to discuss 'faith' maybe a thread called "how much faith is okay?" where we can talk about how we ALL use faith, day to day.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Oh come-on now. You know you are poking-fun by using the term Grand Wizard.

Honestly, not.....It is just how I picture it.....in my mind's eye as I imagine it happening.

It requires faith to have any belief in religion, and the basis must be complete and whole, or, as I have heard it in the past, condemnation to hell is the result.

Of course, I am no expert, just voicing my opinions and looking to engage in some thought provoking conversation.

[Hobbit]

Oh please, your tone throughout this entire thread has been hostile to any idea that isn't yours. I have no reason to believe that you're actually sharing anything serious when even the title of the thread is a taunt.

As for my weighing in:

1) I do, in fact, believe in God.

2) I do not believe in evolution.

3) The two have nothing to do with each other, as I once believed that evolution was true, but was a process guided by God.

I simply find the idea of complex cells, such as nerves, retina cells, bone, or even sperm having enough beneficial mutations occurring at once, even given however many billion years it's had, rather far-fetched. DNA alone leads me to believe that someone or something created us.

[Dilloduck]

. BLIND Faith (in anything) without thought and challenge is a pretty empty shell, and a very dangerous place to stand in my opinion.

So is blind doubt !

[Hagbard Celine]

Oh please, your tone throughout this entire thread has been hostile to any idea that isn't yours. I have no reason to believe that you're actually sharing anything serious when even the title of the thread is a taunt.

As for my weighing in:

1) I do, in fact, believe in God.

2) I do not believe in evolution.

3) The two have nothing to do with each other, as I once believed that evolution was true, but was a process guided by God.

I simply find the idea of complex cells, such as nerves, retina cells, bone, or even sperm having enough beneficial mutations occurring at once, even given however many billion years it's had, rather far-fetched. DNA alone leads me to believe that someone or something created us.

I just can't get there. It seems more probable to me, taking into account that every other occurence in our reality is guided by natural forces, that natural rather than supernatural forces led life to where it is today. And it seems simplistic to me to write-off the existence of a complex system by attributing it to a supernatural creator, of whose existence there is zero proof, when we are completely capable of full understanding.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Oh please, your tone throughout this entire thread has been hostile to any idea that isn't yours. I have no reason to believe that you're actually sharing anything serious when even the title of the thread is a taunt.

As for my weighing in:

1) I do, in fact, believe in God.

2) I do not believe in evolution.

3) The two have nothing to do with each other, as I once believed that evolution was true, but was a process guided by God.

I simply find the idea of complex cells, such as nerves, retina cells, bone, or even sperm having enough beneficial mutations occurring at once, even given however many billion years it's had, rather far-fetched. DNA alone leads me to believe that someone or something created us.

Sorry if you have taken my opinions as hostile...I do not intend for it to be that way, I am only questioning, and I understand how it can be uncomfortable to justify a position without truly knowing, except from a position of belief, and no tangible evidence.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and in no way have meant to demean or belittle anyone's position....actually, I have been very complimentary....it is nice to hear everyone's position....even when not something I can embrace.

As with your last paragraph, I am on the opposite side of the fence, finding it very far fetched that a deity created DNA and everything else that surrounds us....again, not condemning your belief, just pointng out that I cannot accept it as the truth for certain.

Respectfully,

[theHawk]

I don't know how it all came to be....all I know is that this physical realm exists (due to whatever reason you need to explain it) and when we die the physical realm continues, and as sentient beings we have many diffferent ideas of what happens afterward.

The hypocrisy comes in, when one belief calls the other blasphemous, and to challenge the popular belief of the culture, time or populace typically labels one as a heretic.

So, you admit you don't know. Well if you don't have a clue about how it did begin, why are you giving anyone else shit for their beliefs?

Also, what makes it hypocrisy if someone calls you a heretic because you don't believe in what they do. Thats what a heretic is, someone that says or does things that are an attack on your religious beliefs. My question is why would you care what people of certain religion call you if you don't belong to it? I'm sure Muslims would think I am a blasphemous pig because I call the prophet Muhammed a warmongering pedophile. The fact that they might call me that isn't what makes them hypocrits.

[The ClayTaurus]

But it is mostly-modern-human. Everytime somebody finds a varient from 'the norm' they wanna say it's some 'ape-man'. I've read that article, and articles explaining why people who wrote THAT article are wrong.



Because Evolution requires a HUGE amount of faith. The 'opposite' of having creation started through somebody's will starts like this:

"Just by Chance....live evolved from non-life. We can't say how it happened, nor can we reproduce the phenominon, nor can we observe it happening around us...but we 'just got lucky' and chemicals decided to evolve into life..."

Wow.

That's illogical.

However.

"God created life..." Makes more sense on several levels. First, because I've experienced God. I know He's real. Second, because it's absurd to say life somehow 'happened by chance'.Who created God? What is God's origin?

[Hobbit]

I just can't get there. It seems more probable to me, taking into account that every other occurence in our reality is guided by natural forces, that natural rather than supernatural forces led life to where it is today. And it seems simplistic to me to write-off the existence of a complex system by attributing it to a supernatural creator, of whose existence there is zero proof, when we are completely capable of full understanding.

This is why I think we were created.

For a long time, we had no idea who made the Easter Island statues. However, we saw the complex nature of the statue and assumed that they had been created by someone, rather than the result of 'natural forces,' such as erosion. Therefore, we began the search for the creator and eventually figured out how it was done.

Stonehenge is similar. Last I checked, the Celts who occupied Britain at the time it was made had no known technology capable of lifting stones of that size. Now, having ne evidence of any kind of a creator for Stonehenge, we looked at the structure and thought that it was highly improbable that rocks had just broken and fallen in that formation. That being the case, we assume somebody made stonehenge and work from there.

Now, the odds of the Easter Island statues or Stonehenge being created randomly by 'natural forces' is astronomical, but is still nothing compared to the odds of a randomly occuring flagellum, much less something as complex as a rudimentary eye. Therefore, just like Stonehenge, the craftmanship of the creation is evidence of the creator.

[Hagbard Celine]

Who created God? What is God's origin?

He came from Nantucket

[The ClayTaurus]

He came from Nantucket:( I was hoping Ipanema...

[Hagbard Celine]

:( I was hoping Ipanema...

Ooh, that's a good song. I like Sinatra's version.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

So, you admit you don't know. Well if you don't have a clue about how it did begin, why are you giving anyone else shit for their beliefs?

Also, what makes it hypocrisy if someone calls you a heretic because you don't believe in what they do. Thats what a heretic is, someone that says or does things that are an attack on your religious beliefs. My question is why would you care what people of certain religion call you if you don't belong to it? I'm sure Muslims would think I am a blasphemous pig because I call the prophet Muhammed a warmongering pedophile. The fact that they might call me that isn't what makes them hypocrits.

The hypocrisy, in my opinion, is how religions purport to be so caring and welcoming on the one hand, but if questioned or you seek answers elsewhere you are condemned to hell. As though fear of the afterlife should keep you in the fold to tithe.

I honestly mean no offense to anyone....and have said so in almost everyone of my posts. I am only questioning.....

[Dilloduck]

Who created God? What is God's origin?

You are asumming that there was ever a time that God " wasn't" .

[Hagbard Celine]

The hypocrisy, in my opinion, is how religions purport to be so caring and welcoming on the one hand, but if questioned or you seek answers elsewhere you are condemned to hell. As though fear of the afterlife should keep you in the fold to tithe.

I honestly mean no offense to anyone....and have said so in almost everyone of my posts. I am only questioning.....

DO NOT QUESTION THE LAWD. Seriously though. I'm seriously now. Religious intolerance is a pretty stupid difference to have with somebody because no one knows anything for sure. There is no proof of anything! :uhoh:

[The ClayTaurus]

You are asumming that there was ever a time that God " wasn't" .Well we assume that there was ever a time that life "wasn't"

[Hagbard Celine]

Well we assume that there was ever a time that life "wasn't"

Well, when we dig deep enough into the geologic record, there are no more traces of life. That's when the jelly people lived.

[Dilloduck]

DO NOT QUESTION THE LAWD. Seriously though. I'm seriously now. Religious intolerance is a pretty stupid difference to have with somebody because no one knows anything for sure. There is no proof of anything! :uhoh:

Just throw it in the pot with all the other "intolerances" that exist. They all have the same root.

[Hobbit]

The hypocrisy, in my opinion, is how religions purport to be so caring and welcoming on the one hand, but if questioned or you seek answers elsewhere you are condemned to hell. As though fear of the afterlife should keep you in the fold to tithe.

I honestly mean no offense to anyone....and have said so in almost everyone of my posts. I am only questioning.....

You've been talking to the wrong Christians, then. I don't know any Christian who will reject a person just because they're not Christians. If you can't be friends with non-Christians, then how are you supposed to get converts? Drag them off the street, tie them to a chair, and make them watch "The Passion" until they start crying?

[Hagbard Celine]

You've been talking to the wrong Christians, then. I don't know any Christian who will reject a person just because they're not Christians. If you can't be friends with non-Christians, then how are you supposed to get converts? Drag them off the street, tie them to a chair, and make them watch "The Passion" until they start crying?

I know that's what I do, but I didn't know that the end goal was "conversion." What's this "conversion" you speak of?

[darin]

I know that's what I do, but I didn't know that the end goal was "conversion." What's this "conversion" you speak of?

It's helping people find the path to God. Called 'convserion' so it scares non-christians - when in reality it's simply being a friend and loving them as a friend should. Eventually they may see Christ, or acknowledge Him.

The silly thing is - Finding Christ makes somebody's life SO Much better...it's really odd people resist. :)

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

You've been talking to the wrong Christians, then. I don't know any Christian who will reject a person just because they're not Christians. If you can't be friends with non-Christians, then how are you supposed to get converts? Drag them off the street, tie them to a chair, and make them watch "The Passion" until they start crying?

Well that would be a novel approach...could I then purport to show The DaVinci Code to those that "should" be converted in to non-believers?

That is where I get to the deeper hypocrisy, IN MY OPINION. Why are Christians or others COMPELLED to bring other's in to their belief? Why can't non-believers just be that......

I have a very dear friend who asked me to go to church with her. I told her, I appreciate the offer, but I don't belong to a church, nor do I intend on becoming a member....it is just not important to me. She told me she would pray for me (which my grandmother does, as well), and that I would always be welcome to join her at services.

A couple of weeks later, after drinking a few adult beverages, she asked again, and I told her I was really not interested in any one religion, and that many of the different stories fascinated me....end result, she blurted out, "why don't you just accept the Lord to hedge your bets."

I respect her faith, and convictions, is salvation something that must be leveraged (rhetorical question)?

[darin]

Well that would be a novel approach...could I then purport to show The DaVinci Code to those that "should" be converted in to non-believers?

That is where I get to the deeper hypocrisy, IN MY OPINION. Why are Christians or others COMPELLED to bring other's in to their belief? Why can't non-believers just be that......

I have a very dear friend who asked me to go to church with her. I told her, I appreciate the offer, but I don't belong to a church, nor do I intend on becoming a member....it is just not important to me. She told me she would pray for me (which my grandmother does, as well), and that I would always be welcome to join her at services.

A couple of weeks later, after drinking a few adult beverages, she asked again, and I told her I was really not interested in any one religion, and that many of the different stories fascinated me....end result, she blurted out, "why don't you just accept the Lord to hedge your bets."

I respect her faith, and convictions, is salvation something that must be leveraged (rhetorical question)?

Because Christians CARE about people? Maybe? If you had the cure for cancer would you not share the cure?

It's like that...don't be so jaded. :D

[Hagbard Celine]

Well that would be a novel approach...could I then purport to show The DaVinci Code to those that "should" be converted in to non-believers?

That is where I get to the deeper hypocrisy, IN MY OPINION. Why are Christians or others COMPELLED to bring other's in to their belief? Why can't non-believers just be that......

I have a very dear friend who asked me to go to church with her. I told her, I appreciate the offer, but I don't belong to a church, nor do I intend on becoming a member....it is just not important to me. She told me she would pray for me (which my grandmother does, as well), and that I would always be welcome to join her at services.

A couple of weeks later, after drinking a few adult beverages, she asked again, and I told her I was really not interested in any one religion, and that many of the different stories fascinated me....end result, she blurted out, "why don't you just accept the Lord to hedge your bets."

I respect her faith, and convictions, is salvation something that must be leveraged (rhetorical question)?

Who the hell do you people hang out with? I've never had a conversation like this with anybody. Your friends are cracked out.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

It's helping people find the path to God. Called 'convserion' so it scares non-christians - when in reality it's simply being a friend and loving them as a friend should. Eventually they may see Christ, or acknowledge Him.

The silly thing is - Finding Christ makes somebody's life SO Much better...it's really odd people resist. :)

I think the silly thing is that I have a very fulfilling life full of charity, and morality without all the trappings of organized religion, that encumber so many, yet give other's the joy that they seek.

I think it is great that you have found your calling, and are so passionate about it.

[Roopull]

Are you a believer? How do you square the million year old boy with the beginning, as God (Mohammad et al) started it? (drop the creationism if that is what bothers you about the discussion)

Who says I know how God "started it?" I'm quite comfortable "not knowing," and am not arrogant enough to suggest that I could know how life/creation/the universe started.

Your question also suggests that you think my religious or spiritual beliefs somehow conflict with science. Yes, I'm a believer... in both science and God. I have more faith in God than I do science... answers from God are never as convoluted & full of shit as answers from science. But, I'll let the multiple laughable threads on global warming cover that point of view.


An even bigger mystery to me is why atheists, agnostics etc give a flying rat's ass what religous/spiritual people believe. Who gives a crap? I personally couldn't care less what you or anyone else thinks of evolution, ID, creationism or anything like that. It's such a non-issue on the grand scheme of things, I am baffled that otherwise intelligent people waste so much energy & passion discussing it.

Supposedly, religious folks pick & choose facts to fit their beliefs... meanwhile, you attempt to pigeon hole all religous folks into a literal interpretation of Genisis. Mirror mirror...

Who cares? It's little more than an entertaining distraction.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Who cares? It's little more than an entertaining distraction.

Isn't that the whole point of this forum?

Perhaps interspersed with something to make us pause and give a bit of thought, and even challenges us, just a bit?

Sounds to me like you totally get it!

[Hagbard Celine]

Who says I know how God "started it?" I'm quite comfortable "not knowing," and am not arrogant enough to suggest that I could know how life/creation/the universe started.

Your question also suggests that you think my religious or spiritual beliefs somehow conflict with science. Yes, I'm a believer... in both science and God. I have more faith in God than I do science... answers from God are never as convoluted & full of shit as answers from science. But, I'll let the multiple laughable threads on global warming cover that point of view.


An even bigger mystery to me is why atheists, agnostics etc give a flying rat's ass what religous/spiritual people believe. Who gives a crap? I personally couldn't care less what you or anyone else thinks of evolution, ID, creationism or anything like that. It's such a non-issue on the grand scheme of things, I am baffled that otherwise intelligent people waste so much energy & passion discussing it.

Supposedly, religious folks pick & choose facts to fit their beliefs... meanwhile, you attempt to pigeon hole all religous folks into a literal interpretation of Genisis. Mirror mirror...

Who cares? It's little more than an entertaining distraction.

I'm sorry. Did I hear you say "convoluted?" That's rich considering thinkers on the religious side of the debate can't even agree on whether or not the Bible should be read literally or allegorically. :gay:

[darin]

I think the silly thing is that I have a very fulfilling life full of charity, and morality without all the trappings of organized religion, that encumber so many, yet give other's the joy that they seek.

I think it is great that you have found your calling, and are so passionate about it.

That's fine - that's excellent. But the truth of the matter is without Christ, you won't get to God. :(

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Hmmmmmm, OK. In your opinion and millions like you. I respect your take on it. (so where do I go?)

On the flip side, as I believe, we all just become worm food, and that is it. So with your belief, we will be in the same place....and that is not a bad thing, either.

[Nienna]

How many thousands of years ago did your Creator create man and all that we know today? Several thousand, several hundred thousand?

I know it is difficult to question faith for believers, but how does one of such faith explain the discovery of a young boy's skeleton that has been scientifically dated to be over 1 million years old...The Turkana Boy (http://www.answers.com/topic/turkana-boy). His discovery in 1984 has one largely unpublicized, especially in the Christian and Muslim world, as it throws fuel on the fires that debunk creationism, and supports evolution.

I think it's GREAT to question. :)

Regarding this initial topic, I followed the link. It stated that this boy was 1.6 billion years old, and lived/died in the Pleistocene era. My first question would be... how did the scientists arrive at this age for the skeleton?

[Hagbard Celine]

I think it's GREAT to question. :)

Regarding this initial topic, I followed the link. It stated that this boy was 1.6 billion years old, and lived/died in the Pleistocene era. My first question would be... how did the scientists arrive at this age for the skeleton?

Radio Carbon Dating. There is a radioactive carbon isotope that comes from the sun and all organisms have it in them. Even you. It has a half life that breaks down at very predictable incriments. Paleontologists can test for this radioactive isotope and depending on how much remains in the organic material, they can determine its age. And the article doesn't state "billion." It states "million."

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

I think it's GREAT to question. :)

Regarding this initial topic, I followed the link. It stated that this boy was 1.6 billion years old, and lived/died in the Pleistocene era. My first question would be... how did the scientists arrive at this age for the skeleton?

I don't know...I am not a scientist....but I am sure it is through standardized practices for determining the estimated dates.

Fascinating that they have actually hidden the skeleton away, for fear of repercussions from the growing populace of Christians in the area.

[theHawk]

The hypocrisy, in my opinion, is how religions purport to be so caring and welcoming on the one hand, but if questioned or you seek answers elsewhere you are condemned to hell. As though fear of the afterlife should keep you in the fold to tithe.

I honestly mean no offense to anyone....and have said so in almost everyone of my posts. I am only questioning.....

That isn't hypocricy. Hypocricy is saying one thing and turning around and doing the exact opposite. So if someone tells you that you are "going to hell" because according to their beliefs you would, its not hypocrisy, its just their beliefs. If they told you that you are going to hell for a certain reason, and they in turn are doing the same thing then that would make them a hypocrit.




That is where I get to the deeper hypocrisy, IN MY OPINION. Why are Christians or others COMPELLED to bring other's in to their belief? Why can't non-believers just be that......


Because they believe that you're eternal soul is at stake, and they want to help you. Thats called compassion. Perhaps you're content with watching others jump off a bridge, some people try to save them. Does that make them 'hypocrits'?

Again, I do not understand why you use this term, implying that there is some sort of double standard that religious folks have.

[darin]

If they told you that you are going to hell for a certain reason, and they in turn are doing the same thing then that would make them a hypocrit.

Unless they want to go to hell. :) AND being a hypocrit doesn't mean they are wrong. :)

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

That isn't hypocricy. Hypocricy is saying one thing and turning around and doing the exact opposite. So if someone tells you that you are "going to hell" because according to their beliefs you would, its not hypocrisy, its just their beliefs. If they told you that you are going to hell for a certain reason, and they in turn are doing the same thing then that would make them a hypocrit.




Because they believe that you're eternal soul is at stake, and they want to help you. Thats called compassion. Perhaps you're content with watching others jump off a bridge, some people try to save them. Does that make them 'hypocrits'?

Again, I do not understand why you use this term, implying that there is some sort of double standard that religious folks have.


Excellent points, thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected. I should nt have used that term, but did, and cannot edit it out, now.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Unless they want to go to hell. :) AND being a hypocrit doesn't mean they are wrong. :)

Assuming someone believes in hell, right?

[darin]

Assuming someone believes in hell, right?

If somebody says 'You're going to hell for this' - their belief is Implied.

And, quite honestly, somebody's belief, or LACK of belief in hell won't change the reality of Hell's existance. ;)

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

If somebody says 'You're going to hell for this' - their belief is Implied.

And, quite honestly, somebody's belief, or LACK of belief in hell won't change the reality of Hell's existance. ;)

....or non-existence, as the case may be. If you believe, there is hell....if you do not believe, there is no hell.

[Hagbard Celine]

Excellent points, thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected.

I think it's insulting for someone to tell me that I'm going to go to hell. Why? Because f*ck them. That's why. They don't know anything about life after death and neither do I, so I think it's presumptuous and self-righteous to go around insulting people by insinuating that because they don't believe the way you do that their souls will writhe in agony in hell for eternity. Especially when they might just be nicer or more compassionate people than you are to begin with.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

I think it's insulting for someone to tell me that I'm going to go to hell. Why? Because f*ck them. That's why. They don't know anything about life after death and neither do I, so I think it's presumptuous and self-righteous to go around insulting people by insinuating that because they don't believe the way you do that their souls will writhe in agony in hell for eternity. Especially when they might just be nicer or more compassionate people than you are to begin with.

I get rather amused, because it is kind of like telling me to go to someplace imaginary.....of course it doesn't happen very often, because I am a rather likable fellow.

[Roopull]

I'm sorry. Did I hear you say "convoluted?" That's rich considering thinkers on the religious side of the debate can't even agree on whether or not the Bible should be read literally or allegorically. :gay:

Absolutely... there's plenty of BS on both sides of the issue.

For example, here in Jawja, one of the wealthiest counties actually put stickers in school textbooks citing that evolution was a theory.

No. Really. They did.



Meanwhile, kids are graduating who are barely functionally literate, couldn't tell you who we fought in the Korean War & are confused why you're talking about trees when you ask them about the branches of government. Meanwhile, they can tell you all you want to know about who J-Lo is currently knocking boots with.



I think it's insulting for someone to tell me that I'm going to go to hell. Why? Because f*ck them. That's why. They don't know anything about life after death and neither do I...
Sounds like we agree... even if we don't.

[darin]

I think it's insulting for someone to tell me that I'm going to go to hell. Why? Because f*ck them. That's why. They don't know anything about life after death and neither do I, so I think it's presumptuous and self-righteous to go around insulting people by insinuating that because they don't believe the way you do that their souls will writhe in agony in hell for eternity. Especially when they might just be nicer or more compassionate people than you are to begin with.


Geesh - you're bitter...lol. :)

Hell isn't about believing as dmp believes. Hell is about seperation from God. Real Christians have FOUND how to accept attonement from what seperates them from God. They love people, and want to share what they've found. Trust me, Real Christians take NO joy in warning people about Hell. :(

[Hagbard Celine]

I get rather amused, because it is kind of like telling me to go to someplace imaginary.....of course it doesn't happen very often, because I am a rather likable fellow.

Personally I believe that if I'm good and nice I'll go to pie heaven when I die. MmmMmm! :cheers2:

[neener]

Personally I believe that if I'm good and nice I'll go to pie heaven when I die. MmmMmm! :cheers2:

Perhaps you should consider the FSM religion. Their heaven includes a beer volcano and strippers. I'm sure pie would be easy to find.

http://www.venganza.org/
:mm:

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Personally I believe that if I'm good and nice I'll go to pie heaven when I die. MmmMmm! :cheers2:

Cartman will be there!

[5stringJeff]

....or non-existence, as the case may be. If you believe, there is hell....if you do not believe, there is no hell.

This is faulty reasoning. Either hell exists or it doesn't. Its existence, like the existence of God, does not depend on someone believing in it.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

This is faulty reasoning. Either hell exists or it doesn't. Its existence, like the existence of God, does not depend on someone believing in it.

You can believe in it, and it doesn't exist, right?

Or not believe in it, and it does exist.....

It is all an unknown while we are here on earth.....it's existence will not be known while we are alive....so I thk my reasoning is quite sound, actually.

[darin]

You can believe in it, and it doesn't exist, right?

Or not believe in it, and it does exist.....

It is all an unknown while we are here on earth.....it's existence will not be known while we are alive....so I thk my reasoning is quite sound, actually.



It's not an unknown - it's 'You believe it to be unknown'. :)

[Hagbard Celine]

Perhaps you should consider the FSM religion. Their heaven includes a beer volcano and strippers. I'm sure pie would be easy to find.

http://www.venganza.org/
:mm:

Wow, you get to wear full pirate regalia! That's it. I've found my religion.

[darin]

Wow, you get to wear full pirate regalia! That's it. I've found my religion.



Don't you mean:

"AVAST! I've Found Me Religion - YAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR!!!"

[Hobbit]

Allow me to give a little insight as to why some Christians seem so 'pushy.' According to Christianity, those who do not believe in Jesus will suffer mind numbing, eternal torment. While some may have different dogmatic arguments about what happens to those who die unable to understand it or having never heard it, it's a basic belief of most Christians.

Given that, imagine this:

There's a plague. People are dieing from it all around you, thousands a day. You have, in your hand, an unlimited supply of all the cure you could ever want, but because of the way it must be administered, the cure can only be given to a willing person, and it is recommended that you return to one of dozens of local clinics weekly to prevent a relapse, though there's nothing dangerous about skipping a week here and there. It's also completely painless and practically effortless to use. So you walk around the street with this cure, easily administered to anybody who wants it, but when you offer it to people, they say things like, "How dare you call me sick!" or "Who says I need your cure?" or "How do you you know that's the only cure? I think there's many ways to cure the plague, and I'm going to find the one that fits me," or maybe, "Maybe I like having the plague," or "Having the plague is cool," or the ever-popular, "I don't really want a cure. I'm sure the cure is for some people, but I don't think it's for me." Just imagine how maddening that can be.

Now let's up the ante. Let's say that the cure isn't a true vaccine or that it only keeps you from dieing and it takes regular doses to stave off the symptoms (remember, though, the supply is unlimited, free, and painless). To prevent relapses between doses, it is recommended that you limit your time around plague-ridden areas and people, as well as abstain from certain activities which can expose you to the plague. Well, as human beings, you sometimes mess up. Either you can't resist or it's just an accident or whatever. So, every once in a while, you do one of these things that's discouraged. Whenever you do, the same people who have already told you that they want nothing to do with you cure accuse you of not having any faith in your cure because you sometimes do things you've been saying you shouldn't do, and they continue to say these things even though you still stand by the idea that they shouldn't be done and that you are ready to face the consequences of your slip-up. There are also still people who refuse your cure because they don't want the once-a-week clinical visits, even though you explain that they're optional, but recommended for continual well-being.

To finish the trifecta, let's say there are people who aren't just satisfied with refusing your cure. They walk around the country, claiming that you're a snake-oil salesman (even though you don't charge a dime) and that only fools would believe the cure could work. They actively discourage people from accepting your cure. They accuse you of using them to acquire wealth, even though, corruption aside, all donations are voluntary and open IRS records show that all money is spent on distributing the cure. They never really offer any evidence, just claim that they're on the side of common sense. Let's suppose science can't explain why the cure works, but it does anyway. These people cite the fact that science can't figure out why it works as evidence that it does not. No matter how nice and charitable you try to be, these same people follow you from place to place, berating anyone who even considers your cure, calling them idiots, zealots, and sheep.

Now, add all of this in with the fact that your organization's founder had to die for the cure to be made, and you've got a mounting pile of frustration only alleviated by the knowledge that you are saving people from the plague.

Congratulations, you now have a bit of insight into how frustrating it can be to be a Christian. I'm walking around every day with mountains of cure, and I get called a backwards, idiotic zealot who doesn't believe in science and is just trying to push my backward belief system on everyone else for some kind of financial gain.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

It's not an unknown - it's 'You believe it to be unknown'. :)

Well, it begs the question, "can you prove it to me?"

The existence of heaven and hell are not known. They are not tangible places we can visit over the weekend, are they? (of course you can't get to andromeda over the weekend, either, but we know it is a real place...or is it a great movie studio hoax?)

[Hagbard Celine]

I'm post number 75 on this thread!

[jillian]

It's not an unknown - it's 'You believe it to be unknown'. :)

You believe it is known. That's why they call it "faith" and not fact.

[Hobbit]

Well, it begs the question, "can you prove it to me?"

The existence of heaven and hell are not known. They are not tangible places we can visit over the weekend, are they? (of course you can't get to andromeda over the weekend, either, but we know it is a real place...or is it a great movie studio hoax?)

Actually, we don't know for sure if Andromeda, as we know it, exists. Yeah, there's documentation that supports its existence, but there are also many scientific theories revolving around the idea that this is the only galaxy in the universe and that all other galaxies are 'reflections' or 'shadows' of what our galaxy once looked like, or may one day become.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Hobbit, thanks for the input. Very well stated.....for a minute there, I thought you were going to "zing" me with a twist, in that the cure is actually non-belief.....wouldn't th be an interesting thought. Could you imagine your story from the other side of the arguement?

[5stringJeff]

You can believe in it, and it doesn't exist, right?

Or not believe in it, and it does exist.....

But, again, whether or not you believe in it does not cause it to exist or not exist.


It is all an unknown while we are here on earth.....it's existence will not be known while we are alive....so I thk my reasoning is quite sound, actually.

It's not an unknown. Some people refuse to draw the logical conclusions when faced with the evidence.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

But, again, whether or not you believe in it does not cause it to exist or not exist.

It's not an unknown. Some people refuse to draw the logical conclusions when faced with the evidence.

What EVIDENCE?

If this were some crazy insane conspiracy theorist who claimed that the government shot a rocket into the Pentagon or that the planes that were hijacked were actually remote control drones and that the World Trade Center was imploded, you would ask for incontrovertible evidence of that statement, wouldn't you?

You are right, for sure, when you state that whether or not I believe will change its' existence or nonexistence.....no argument from me. We just have no way of knowing one way or the other while we are living.

[Missileman]

Who created God? What is God's origin?

Dude! That's just so irrelevant! :rolleyes:

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Actually, we don't know for sure if Andromeda, as we know it, exists. Yeah, there's documentation that supports its existence, but there are also many scientific theories revolving around the idea that this is the only galaxy in the universe and that all other galaxies are 'reflections' or 'shadows' of what our galaxy once looked like, or may one day become.

Andromeda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_galaxy) does exist, it can be observed, measured and if given enough time, travelled to for a visit (or is this my imagination)

[Missileman]

This is faulty reasoning. Either hell exists or it doesn't. Its existence, like the existence of God, does not depend on someone believing in it.

I think he was saying that hell's existence isn't proven by your belief in it.

[TheSage]

How many thousands of years ago did your Creator create man and all that we know today? Several thousand, several hundred thousand?

I know it is difficult to question faith for believers, but how does one of such faith explain the discovery of a young boy's skeleton that has been scientifically dated to be over 1 million years old...The Turkana Boy (http://www.answers.com/topic/turkana-boy). His discovery in 1984 has one largely unpublicized, especially in the Christian and Muslim world, as it throws fuel on the fires that debunk creationism, and supports evolution.

Let's take this out of the supernatural realm. Do you think behavior matters? Is a society strengthened or weakened by it's prevalant standards of behavior?

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Let's take this out of the supernatural realm. Do you think behavior matters? Is a society strengthened or weakened by it's prevalant standards of behavior?

Ha! That is an excellent question!

It is a pretty broad scope to make generalizations by.....and if I were really trying to get one's keister in a bind, I would point to the fact that Sharia Law is a standard for behavior in many parts of the world, and it is abhorrent to Christians and other "civilized" folks who think stoning a woman is medieval and dispicable.

Personally, I think behavior is not the provenance of religion, although many religions have codes of conduct to live by....most of which are pretty sound and reasonable, but in no way is a religious belief a requirement for good behavior, moral conduct or civility to humankind.

Very similar to the Zia's four sacred obligations: development of a strong body, a clear mind, a pure spirit and devotion to the welfare of people/family. Not unlike many obscure native people's beliefs around the world.

[TheSage]

Ha! That is an excellent question!

It is a pretty broad scope to make generalizations by.....and if I were really trying to get one's keister in a bind, I would point to the fact that Sharia Law is a standard for behavior in many parts of the world, and it is abhorrent to Christians and other "civilized" folks who think stoning a woman is medieval and dispicable.

Personally, I think behavior is not the provenance of religion, although many religions have codes of conduct to live by....most of which are pretty sound and reasonable, but in no way is a religious belief a requirement for good behavior, moral conduct or civility to humankind.

Very similar to the Zia's four sacred obligations: development of a strong body, a clear mind, a pure spirit and devotion to the welfare of people/family. Not unlike many obscure native people's beliefs around the world.

It is my strong belief that the goal of those who disparage religion is ultimately to change the behavior of the society.

Additionally, faith in god and the hope and courage it instills is undesirable to those who wish to control others. Totalitarians hate hope and courage.

[Dilloduck]

It is my strong belief that the goal of those who disparage religion is ultimately to change the behavior of the society.

Additionally, faith in god and the hope and courage it instills is undesirable to those who wish to control others. Totalitarians hate hope and courage.

So true---they ban--err uhhh kill the brave ones first.

[TheSage]

So true---they ban--err uhhh kill the brave ones first.

Too true.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

It is my strong belief that the goal of those who disparage religion is ultimately to change the behavior of the society.

Additionally, faith in god and the hope and courage it instills is undesirable to those who wish to control others. Totalitarians hate hope and courage.

Interesting points you make.....I can't speak for anyone when it comes to disparaging religion, since that is the furthest from my mind, and point of this thread. I may have started with a pretty hot Title, and in retrospect should have used something different.

Changing the behavior of society, huh? Hasn't that been tried through legislation,as well? Pretty much doesn't work....more like the decline of morals by the lowest common denominator that gets 15 minutes of fame anymore.

I certainly wish I could make society a better place for my son.....but all I can really do, is show how doing the right thing (even when no one is looking) is the best way to live. I think that takes tremendous courage and I have a few mentors that I look up to in that regard.....

No baiting, here, just asking the question......and challenging myself to a little deeper thought on the subject.

[TheSage]

Interesting points you make.....I can't speak for anyone when it comes to disparaging religion, since that is the furthest from my mind, and point of this thread. I may have started with a pretty hot Title, and in retrospect should have used something different.

Changing the behavior of society, huh? Hasn't that been tried through legislation,as well? Pretty much doesn't work....more like the decline of morals by the lowest common denominator that gets 15 minutes of fame anymore.

I certainly wish I could make society a better place for my son.....but all I can really do, is show how doing the right thing (even when no one is looking) is the best way to live. I think that takes tremendous courage and I have a few mentors that I look up to in that regard.....

No baiting, here, just asking the question......and challenging myself to a little deeper thought on the subject.


The prevalant "wisdom" today is that morality is for fools and only the good die young. The esoteric teachings of all new agey crap is generally that evil = enlightenment. I reject this completely. Moral societies are strong societies. The enemies of our society erode our morality on every front. "slave labor is just good business" etc.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

The prevalant "wisdom" today is that morality is for fools and only the good die young. The esoteric teachings of all new agey crap is generally that evil = enlightenment. I reject this completely. Moral societies are strong societies. The enemies of our society erode our morality on every front.

I guess I have more optimism than that...OR are you baiting with generalities of what "they" think?

[TheSage]

I guess I have more optimism than that...OR are you baiting with generalities of what "they" think?

Or else you're a masonic dipstick as well.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Or else you're a masonic dipstick as well.

Wow, what's with the insult...no need for that.....

No secret handshake or illimunati for me.....although I did take a tour when I lived in DC that was ripe with conspiracy theories and masonic overtones.

OK, now that we are off topic......:o

[TheSage]

Wow, what's with the insult...no need for that.....

No secret handshake or illimunati for me.....although I did take a tour when I lived in DC that was ripe with conspiracy theories and masonic overtones.

OK, now that we are off topic......:o


I told you what I thought, you accused me of baiting. To me, that indicates an agenda, sorry i preempted your "manipulation with fear" accusation by going straight to the heart of the matter. Are you a globalist?

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

I told you what I thought, you accused me of baiting. To me, that indicates an agenda, sorry i preempted your "manipulation with fear" accusation by going straight to the heart of the matter. Are you a globalist?

Hell NO! (there are a few around here that can vouch for that with certainty!)

I didn't accuse you of baiting......I simply asked a question: "OR are you baiting with generalities of what "they" think?"

I am sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way.....just looking for a little conversation on a volatile subject.

My agenda is simple.....read the first post.....and to reiterate, just looking for a bit of conversation that may make me think a bit more, and even be uncomfortable, but able to maintain some civility.

Thanks.

[TheSage]

Hell NO! (there are a few around here that can vouch for that with certainty!)

I didn't accuse you of baiting......I simply asked a question: "OR are you baiting with generalities of what "they" think?"

I am sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way.....just looking for a little conversation on a volatile subject.

My agenda is simple.....read the first post.....and to reiterate, just looking for a bit of conversation that may make me think a bit more, and even be uncomfortable, but able to maintain some civility.

Thanks.

I guess I am baiting with generalities of what THEY think. LOL.

[Grumplestillskin]

So if I don't believe in a god, am I going to hell?

Gadget: Every one of your posts has been fine. Some posters are on the defensive anticipating a flame or three. You've got NOTHING to apologise for, so stop doing so. Kill 'em with civility - it gets them every time...:poke:

[Gunny]

Hell NO! (there are a few around here that can vouch for that with certainty!)

I didn't accuse you of baiting......I simply asked a question: "OR are you baiting with generalities of what "they" think?"

I am sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way.....just looking for a little conversation on a volatile subject.

My agenda is simple.....read the first post.....and to reiterate, just looking for a bit of conversation that may make me think a bit more, and even be uncomfortable, but able to maintain some civility.

Thanks.

Gadget, meet Sage. If you are looking for a bit of conversation on the latest conspiracy theory; especially, as it pertains to Jews, the New World Order, and Masons, he's your guy.

If you want to discuss the topic, you're screwed.

[Gunny]

So if I don't believe in a god, am I going to hell?

Gadget: Every one of your posts has been fine. Some posters are on the defensive anticipating a flame or three. You've got NOTHING to apologise for, so stop doing so. Kill 'em with civility - it gets them every time...:poke:

Is there a point to your question? According to scripture, you are indeed going to Hell.

[Grumplestillskin]

Is there a point to your question? According to scripture, you are indeed going to Hell.

Yep, there is a point. If I go to hell, and I'm an Ok dude, how can this god fella/falless, put me in the same category as Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler. I mean, let's face it - I have done some not very nice things - flipped off the odd person for jay walking in front of me, been manipulative from time to time, even told the odd lie - but I ain't got nothing on those other two. My only "sin" of note as it pertains to God, is that i don't believe in such an entity. Why would I want to believe in something as fickle as that? And an entity that is po'ed to send me to hell for eternity over such a small matter.
Let's say I'm wrong, and there is a god and I have my judgement day:

Me: "Hey, sorry I didn't believe in you".

Him/her: "Ah, well, have fun in hell for eternity. Be tortured for eternity. Be in constant excrutiating pain and die 1000 deaths every second for eternity. Just because you didn't believe".

"Gee thanks"

What a guy/girl...

[Yurt]

Yep, there is a point. If I go to hell, and I'm an Ok dude, how can this god fella/falless, put me in the same category as Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler. I mean, let's face it - I have done some not very nice things - flipped off the odd person for jay walking in front of me, been manipulative from time to time, even told the odd lie - but I ain't got nothing on those other two. My only "sin" of note as it pertains to God, is that i don't believe in such an entity. Why would I want to believe in something as fickle as that? And an entity that is po'ed to send me to hell for eternity over such a small matter.
Let's say I'm wrong, and there is a god and I have my judgement day:

Me: "Hey, sorry I didn't believe in you".

Him/her: "Ah, well, have fun in hell for eternity. Be tortured for eternity. Be in constant excrutiating pain and die 1000 deaths every second for eternity. Just because you didn't believe".

"Gee thanks"

What a guy/girl...


If you have no belief, how would you appreciate what He has to offer.. for eternity.. afterall, you have no belief, according to this post.

Crimes measured by God are not measured as we measure them. Only God measures you. The standard is clear. And let no one tell that you will not go to heaven, only God knows that.

[Grumplestillskin]

If you have no belief, how would you appreciate what He has to offer.. for eternity.. afterall, you have no belief, according to this post.

Exactly, but I am using supposition and just jawing...


Crimes measured by God are not measured as we measure them. Only God measures you. The standard is clear. And let no one tell that you will not go to heaven, only God knows that.

Well, glad to hear it! Tell that to some of the fundie Christians. They swear they have all the answers...

[Yurt]

Exactly, but I am using supposition and just jawing...



Well, glad to hear it! Tell that to some of the fundie Christians. They swear they have all the answers...

I can tell, your last diatribe gives you away. Didn't your school marm teach you anything about generalizations....

[Grumplestillskin]

I can tell, your last diatribe gives you away. Didn't your school marm teach you anything about generalizations....

If you want a debate on theological dissertions, you're speaking to the wrong person. If you want a debate on why people think like they do, I'm all ears. Generalisations are generally true...

[TheSage]

Gadget, meet Sage. If you are looking for a bit of conversation on the latest conspiracy theory; especially, as it pertains to Jews, the New World Order, and Masons, he's your guy.

If you want to discuss the topic, you're screwed.


This is the topic. There is a moral/ religious component to the new world order.

Quit derailing the thread with personal attacks, assmunch.

[theHawk]

Quit derailing the thread with personal attacks, assmunch.

:laugh:

[Gaffer]

Gadget you will get more intelligent conversation talking to your mouse than you will from sage aka adolph. Gunny had it right. If you don't believe in conspiracies then your an asswipe, moron, satanist, globalist and every other repugnant being. Oh and a jew.

He only good for redirecting threads and as someone to make fun of as he's demented.

[TheSage]

Gadget you will get more intelligent conversation talking to your mouse than you will from sage aka adolph. Gunny had it right. If you don't believe in conspiracies then your an asswipe, moron, satanist, globalist and every other repugnant being. Oh and a jew.

He only good for redirecting threads and as someone to make fun of as he's demented.

Quit being obsessed with me. Let people form their own judgements. Your only contribution to this discussion has been making personal attacks. Be an adult.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

I have made my assessment of a few people, but I continue to have an open mind, with hopes that some will not take to quick personal insults....

It reminds me of the time when there was this guy with a tinfoil hat.....what was his name? Mind Guard, or some such?

Anyway, thanks for the conversation, so far, and I guess as fist threads go, this one has been somewhat of a success.

I hope to start some other threads in the future, but this one may have run its' course, already....

[Gunny]

Yep, there is a point. If I go to hell, and I'm an Ok dude, how can this god fella/falless, put me in the same category as Pol Pot and Adolf Hitler. I mean, let's face it - I have done some not very nice things - flipped off the odd person for jay walking in front of me, been manipulative from time to time, even told the odd lie - but I ain't got nothing on those other two. My only "sin" of note as it pertains to God, is that i don't believe in such an entity. Why would I want to believe in something as fickle as that? And an entity that is po'ed to send me to hell for eternity over such a small matter.
Let's say I'm wrong, and there is a god and I have my judgement day:

Me: "Hey, sorry I didn't believe in you".

Him/her: "Ah, well, have fun in hell for eternity. Be tortured for eternity. Be in constant excrutiating pain and die 1000 deaths every second for eternity. Just because you didn't believe".

"Gee thanks"

What a guy/girl...

You're asking me to answer for God; which, I cannot. Perhaps you should ask Him?

[Gunny]

This is the topic. There is a moral/ religious component to the new world order.

Quit derailing the thread with personal attacks, assmunch.

I'm derailing the thread because you're trying to turn it into your favorite New World Order conspiracy? I think not.

I'm just warning the new dude what he's in store for: Agree with every one of RWA's conspiracies or be insulted for no more reason than NOT agreeing.

[Grumplestillskin]

You're asking me to answer for God; which, I cannot. Perhaps you should ask Him?

I'm not asking you anything. I'm giving a scenario. If there was such a thing as a god, I might just do that, but as it stands...:dunno:

[Gunny]

I'm not asking you anything. I'm giving a scenario. If there was such a thing as a god, I might just do that, but as it stands...:dunno:

God STILL beats all the alternative theories. And to answer your question more directly, Christ says that Man cannot get to Heaven on good works alone.

[jillian]

God STILL beats all the alternative theories. And to answer your question more directly, Christ says that Man cannot get to Heaven on good works alone.

And my religion says you go to heaven for good works and there's no such thing as hell... (though there is shoel... or purgatory) and my religion's got 4,000 years on Christianity.

So I figure it's all a function of what one believes.

[Gunny]

And my religion says you go to heaven for good works and there's no such thing as hell... (though there is shoel... or purgatory) and my religion's got 4,000 years on Christianity.

So I figure it's all a function of what one believes.

Yours is wrong.

[jillian]

Yours is wrong.

And I think yours is... so there ya go!

I figure we'll both find out when we move on to the next world.

[Gunny]

And I think yours is... so there ya go!

I figure we'll both find out when we move on to the next world.

If you're trying to make a point, you aren't doing very well.

[jillian]

If you're trying to make a point, you aren't doing very well.

My point was it's a function of what one has faith in. There's nothing proven. Nothing known. Only what we believe.

Sorry if I didn't state my point well.

[Grumplestillskin]

God STILL beats all the alternative theories..

I disagreer. In fact, I think of all/any theories Iv'e heard, a god is the worst example...

[Dilloduck]

And my religion says you go to heaven for good works and there's no such thing as hell... (though there is shoel... or purgatory) and my religion's got 4,000 years on Christianity.

So I figure it's all a function of what one believes.

You mean it's not a function of age ? :coffee:

[Gunny]

My point was it's a function of what one has faith in. There's nothing proven. Nothing known. Only what we believe.

Sorry if I didn't state my point well.

And if I didn't believe I was right, I obviously would not believe, would I?

[jillian]

You mean it's not a function of age ? :coffee:

Oh hell... I hope not. :flameth:

[Gunny]

I disagreer. In fact, I think of all/any theories Iv'e heard, a god is the worst example...

You can disagree all you want, but you obviously aren't using common sense and/or logic if you think any other theory is better, because they aren't.

[jillian]

And if I didn't believe I was right, I obviously would not believe, would I?

Same here, no?

[Gunny]

You mean it's not a function of age ? :coffee:

Faith is menopausal? Bummer.:laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

Oh hell... I hope not. :flameth:

I mean is 4,000 years somehow better?

[Gunny]

Same here, no?

Again, your point?

[jillian]

I mean is 4,000 years somehow better?

Of course not. Like I said. It's about faith, not the known. I just don't believe that the only means by which one can enter heaven if it exists, is by belief in G-d. Seems what we do during out time on this earth should have at least as much meaning as what we believe in terms of religion.

[Dilloduck]

Of course not. Like I said. It's about faith, not the known. I just don't believe that the only means by which one can enter heaven if it exists, is by belief in G-d. Seems what we do during out time on this earth should have at least as much meaning as what we believe in terms of religion.

I agree--and those of faith seem to also have developed general patterns of behavior.

[Gunny]

Of course not. Like I said. It's about faith, not the known. I just don't believe that the only means by which one can enter heaven if it exists, is by belief in G-d. Seems what we do during out time on this earth should have at least as much meaning as what we believe in terms of religion.

And I said nothing to disagree with you. Perhaps you should have read instead of spoiling for a confrontation, no?

I said: Christ says Man cannot get into Heaven on good works alone. That speaks only to that aspect of "getting into heaven."

We also know we will be judged for how we live our lives on Earth; which, would mean a combination of faith AND being a good person would be the requirement. Right?

[jillian]

I agree--and those of faith seem to also have developed general patterns of behavior.

If all goes as it's supposed to. But I've met athiests who were among the most honorable people I've ever known and religious people who were the biggest crooks and hypocrites I've ever met. That's why I think professed belief can't be all it takes. I mean, don't you think you also have to walk the walk... and if you walk the walk, regardless of what you believe, shouldn't you be rewarded, assuming there's a reward.

[Gunny]

If all goes as it's supposed to. But I've met athiests who were among the most honorable people I've ever known and religious people who were the biggest crooks and hypocrites I've ever met. That's why I think professed belief can't be all it takes. I mean, don't you think you also have to walk the walk... and if you walk the walk, regardless of what you believe, shouldn't you be rewarded, assuming there's a reward.

The answer to your last question is no.

[jillian]

And I said nothing to disagree with you. Perhaps you should have read instead of spoiling for a confrontation, no?

I said: Christ says Man cannot get into Heaven on good works alone. That speaks only to that aspect of "getting into heaven."

We also know we will be judged for how we live our lives on Earth; which, would mean a combination of faith AND being a good person would be the requirement. Right?

I wasn't spoiling for a confrontation at all. I was simply pointing out that there are other beliefs which do not require any belief in Christ. I thought it a fair response, if it offended you, I apologize. Wasn't intentional.

[Dilloduck]

If all goes as it's supposed to. But I've met athiests who were among the most honorable people I've ever known and religious people who were the biggest crooks and hypocrites I've ever met. That's why I think professed belief can't be all it takes. I mean, don't you think you also have to walk the walk... and if you walk the walk, regardless of what you believe, shouldn't you be rewarded, assuming there's a reward.

How can anyone ever tell if a Jew is "walking the walk" ?

[Gunny]

I wasn't spoiling for a confrontation at all. I was simply pointing out that there are other beliefs which do not require any belief in Christ. I thought it a fair response, if it offended you, I apologize. Wasn't intentional.

I'm not offended. I can also understand why you would not put faith in Christ's words, since denying Him as the Son of God and savior of Man defines your religion.

However, IIRC, belief in God is STILL a requirement of Judaism, and good works alone STILL will not get you to Heaven.

In all honestly, I do not profess to know what God's answer is, nor what His actions will be. I'm telling you what the Bible says. You have never heard me condemn anyone to Hell, and I'm not about to.

Grump asked and I answered, based on my beliefs, not yours and everyone else's. Obviously, since Grump is a nonbeliever, it really doesn't matter to him anyway.

[Gaffer]

How can anyone ever tell if a Jew is "walking the walk" ?

Same way they can tell if you are walking the walk. What does being a jew have to do with walking the walk?

[jillian]

I'm not offended. I can also understand why you would not put faith in Christ's words, since denying Him as the Son of God and savior of Man defines your religion.

However, IIRC, belief in God is STILL a requirement of Judaism, and good works alone STILL will not get you to Heaven.

In all honestly, I do not profess to know what God's answer is, nor what His actions will be. I'm telling you what the Bible says. You have never heard me condemn anyone to Hell, and I'm not about to.

Grump asked and I answered, based on my beliefs, not yours and everyone else's. Obviously, since Grump is a nonbeliever, it really doesn't matter to him anyway.

I'm glad you took no offense, because I truly meant none. I was simply answering as best I can. What I can say is Judaism is not based on denial of Jesus as the messiah. It pre-existed Jesus and is based on no tenets having to do with him at all. I can also tell you that we have a concept of the "righteous gentile" where entry to heaven is granted to non-believers who live their lives doing good works and generally being good people. I've always kind of liked that, myself.

I don't think these issues don't matter to Grump. I've known him long enough to know that he finds them interesting and important, though he's drawn other conclusions, which we've debated and discussed for near on four years.

[jillian]

Same way they can tell if you are walking the walk. What does being a jew have to do with walking the walk?

Exactly. Thank you.

[Dilloduck]

Same way they can tell if you are walking the walk. What does being a jew have to do with walking the walk?

Because the talk is different

[Gunny]

I'm glad you took no offense, because I truly meant none. I was simply answering as best I can. What I can say is Judaism is not based on denial of Jesus as the messiah. It pre-existed Jesus and is based on no tenets having to do with him at all. I can also tell you that we have a concept of the "righteous gentile" where entry to heaven is granted to non-believers who live their lives doing good works and generally being good people. I've always kind of liked that, myself.

I don't think these issues don't matter to Grump. I've known him long enough to know that he finds them interesting and important, though he's drawn other conclusions, which we've debated and discussed for near on four years.

That's what I said ...denial.:laugh2:

Where does this concept of the "righteous gentile" come from? It isn't in the Old Testament. I am curious to know the origin of such a concept.

[jillian]

That's what I said ...denial.:laugh2:

Where does this concept of the "righteous gentile" come from? It isn't in the Old Testament. I am curious to know the origin of such a concept.

Judaism isn't just written laws. It has oral laws, too. Judaism is also a bit different in that unless one is a fundamentalist (like the Chasidim) the bible is allegorical. The rabbis, going back thousands of years basically sat down, parsed every word of the bible and came up with written and oral laws based on it which, if one is orthodox (which I'm not... I'm conservative bordering on reform with a little Kabbalah and Buddhism tossed in) one lives by. The Socratic method is based on the manner in which those laws were arrived at. Questions/Answers/More questions/more answers.

For example. There is nothing in the bible saying one can't eat meat and milk. The bible simply says one may not boil the calf in the milk of its mother (because that would insult both mother and calf). After the rabbis got done with it, basically they arrived at not mixing meat and milk because one can never know if one is in fact preparing the calf in the milk of its mother. Same thing with work. The bible said no work on the Sabbath. Then the rabbis got together and defined "work", etc., etc. Their job, as they saw it, was to make specific the general laws set forth in the bible.

So, much like that, the term "righteous gentile" became a concept that was recognized in Judaic thought. Noah would be considered one, I believe, as would Jonah.

[Gunny]

Judaism isn't just written laws. It has oral laws, too. Judaism is also a bit different in that unless one is a fundamentalist (like the Chasidim) the bible is allegorical. The rabbis, going back thousands of years basically sat down, parsed every word of the bible and came up with written and oral laws based on it which, if one is orthodox (which I'm not... I'm conservative bordering on reform with a little Kabbalah and Buddhism tossed in) one lives by. The Socratic method is based on the manner in which those laws were arrived at. Questions/Answers/More questions/more answers.

For example. There is nothing in the bible saying one can't eat meat and milk. The bible simply says one may not boil the calf in the milk of its mother (because that would insult both mother and calf). After the rabbis got done with it, basically they arrived at not mixing meat and milk because one can never know if one is in fact preparing the calf in the milk of its mother. Same thing with work. The bible said no work on the Sabbath. Then the rabbis got together and defined "work", etc., etc. Their job, as they saw it, was to make specific the general laws set forth in the bible.

So, much like that, the term "righteous gentile" became a concept that was recognized in Judaic thought. Noah would be considered one, as would Jonah.


Seems to me the concept of the righteous gentile kinda goes against the grain of the religion.

[jillian]

Seems to me the concept of the righteous gentile kinda goes against the grain of the religion.

No. Because non-Jews would never be expected to abide by Jewish law, only the 10 commandments.

[Gunny]

No. Because non-Jews would never be expected to abide by Jewish law, only the 10 commandments.

So Jews are willing to share Heaven with us second-class citizens, huh?:laugh2:

[jillian]

So Jews are willing to share Heaven with us second-class citizens, huh?:laugh2:

A little too Jason-ish for me. lol. :tank:

Seriously, it isn't like that, at least not as I've ever been taught it (though I guess like any other religion, there are different groups teaching different things). I think the concept is based on the fact that G-d has enough room in his heart for all his children if they do good and Heaven is big enough to accommodate us all.

[Gunny]

A little too Jason-ish for me. lol. :tank:

Seriously, it isn't like that, at least not as I've ever been taught it (though I guess like any other religion, there are different groups teaching different things). I think the concept is based on the fact that G-d has enough room in his heart for all his children if they do good and Heaven is big enough to accommodate us all.

Hardly. I was planning on going with or without the rest of you anyway.;)

[jillian]

Hardly. I was planning on going with or without the rest of you anyway.;)

Heh! Cheers!

[Gaffer]

Because the talk is different

How is the talk different? Read some of Jills posts and she might enlighten you a bit. Or are you just into blind hatred like adolph?

[Gaffer]

Hardly. I was planning on going with or without the rest of you anyway.;)

Since I don't have the faith I guess you'll have to party without me.

[manu1959]

How many thousands of years ago did your Creator create man and all that we know today? Several thousand, several hundred thousand?

I know it is difficult to question faith for believers, but how does one of such faith explain the discovery of a young boy's skeleton that has been scientifically dated to be over 1 million years old...The Turkana Boy (http://www.answers.com/topic/turkana-boy). His discovery in 1984 has one largely unpublicized, especially in the Christian and Muslim world, as it throws fuel on the fires that debunk creationism, and supports evolution.

creationism and evolution are not mutually exclusive.....

[jillian]

creationism and evolution are not mutually exclusive.....

I agree. Just have to remember one is faith, one is science.

And not trying to be glib here. I don't think there's a thing that was written in A Brief History of Time that is inconsistent with the Bible. That doesn't make creationism science, but it does mean they can live together.

[Grumplestillskin]

but you obviously aren't using common sense and/or logic if you think any other theory is better, because they aren't.

Actually my disbelief of a god is totally based on logic nad common sense...:2up:

[manu1959]

I agree. Just have to remember one is faith, one is science.

And not trying to be glib here. I don't think there's a thing that was written in A Brief History of Time that is inconsistent with the Bible. That doesn't make creationism science, but it does mean they can live together.

i agree and anything is possible......

[jillian]

i agree and anything is possible......

No. Not anything. By saying that, you make Genesis no different from hypothesis based on scientific evidence. You can hace *faith* that something may have occurred a certain way. It requires no evidence, no proof, nothing but an expression of belief. Now, I certainly have no issue with one having *faith* in something.

So, while I guess anything is possible if one has faith in it, those possibilities get limited when one looks to science. Saying otherwise is intentionally diminishing the value of science, at least as I see it.

[Dilloduck]

How is the talk different? Read some of Jills posts and she might enlighten you a bit. Or are you just into blind hatred like adolph?

Calm down and LISTEN. Judaism and Christianity are different religions. The talk is different. There is vast public awareness of Christianity and the New Testament and thus Chistians are regularly accused of hypocrisy when they walk differently than how someone else interprets the talk. If you read Jillians' post you learn that Jewish law is different and frankly I couldn't tell you what they believe to be "the WAY". Can YOU identify Jews who are not walking the walk. This is a bit bigger than what a person eats.

[jillian]

Calm down and LISTEN. Judaism and Christianity are different religions. The talk is different. There is vast public awareness of Christianity and the New Testament and thus Chistians are regularly accused of hypocrisy when they walk differently than how someone else interprets the talk. If you read Jillians' post you learn that Jewish law is different and frankly I couldn't tell you what they believe to be "the WAY". Can YOU identify Jews who are not walking the walk. This is a bit bigger than what a person eats.

No. It's really not all that different. Trying to do good in the world, charity, (the highest form of charity being someone who gives anonymously because they aren't looking for recognition for it), caring for your family, your country, kindness to ones neighbors, living by the 10 Commandments.... that sort of thing.

You guys just have more stuff about turning the other cheek. ;)

[Dilloduck]

No. It's really not all that different. Trying to do good in the world, charity, (the highest form of charity being someone who gives anonymously because they aren't looking for recognition for it), caring for your family, your country, kindness to ones neighbors, living by the 10 Commandments.... that sort of thing.

You guys just have more stuff about turning the other cheek. ;)

So if Jew was selfish it would be pretty hypocritical I guess. How about all the oral and written law other than the Torah.

[jillian]

So if Jew was selfish it would be pretty hypocritical I guess.

No more than a Christian saying that if someone in NO was "too stupid" to move out of the way of a hurricane, they're SOL.


How about all the oral and written law other than the Torah.

How about it?

[Dilloduck]

[QUOTE=jillian;12513]No more than a Christian saying that if someone in NO was "too stupid" to move out of the way of a hurricane, they're SOL.

I assume that's a yes. Both Christian and Jew would be a hypocrite if they were cruel to others.



How about it?

Are there other regulatory laws pertaining to proper actions or behavior that Jews are commanded to follow?

Lord knows the New Testament is an open book of chapters and verses that people choose to twist and turn to use against Chrstians and criticize thier behavior as hypocritical.

[Gunny]

Since I don't have the faith I guess you'll have to party without me.

If you're waiting on a sermon from me, you're in trouble. Perhpas one of the fundamentalists around here can help you see the error of your ways.:poke:

In all honesty, I don't do this argument, and it sort of accidentally went this route. While I'm more than willing to engage in the arguments with those who feel the need to reassure themselves by renouncing God in public (on the board) with some seriously lame arguments, I don't do the "who's religion is the right-est" argument.

I don't like people trying to shove shit down my throat, so I at least try to treat others the same.

[manu1959]

No. Not anything. By saying that, you make Genesis no different from hypothesis based on scientific evidence. You can hace *faith* that something may have occurred a certain way. It requires no evidence, no proof, nothing but an expression of belief. Now, I certainly have no issue with one having *faith* in something.

So, while I guess anything is possible if one has faith in it, those possibilities get limited when one looks to science. Saying otherwise is intentionally diminishing the value of science, at least as I see it.

i stand by my statement....anything is possible....

[Norse_soul]

Why is it that your story is correct, and their's is wrong?[/QUOTE]

I completely agree. I love when people say, Well, it says so in the bible, so it must be true. Everything you read is the gospel truth. In all the multitude of religions and beliefs in the history of the world, what makes Christianity or Islam truth, just because someone wrote down a very interesting story. The Vikings had the poetic eddas, which were later written down by Christian Monks. What makes an Oral history of the gods, passed down generation after generation from before the rise of Christianity, any less true than the "bible".

Look at the sumerians. Or cave drawings with symbols of religions coming after them. Who knows how old some of those religions are. The only religion I am absolutely certain was false is that of the romans (before christianity)...because they stole their beliefs from other nations and renamed the gods in their image.

[Dilloduck]

No. Not anything. By saying that, you make Genesis no different from hypothesis based on scientific evidence. You can hace *faith* that something may have occurred a certain way. It requires no evidence, no proof, nothing but an expression of belief. Now, I certainly have no issue with one having *faith* in something.

So, while I guess anything is possible if one has faith in it, those possibilities get limited when one looks to science. Saying otherwise is intentionally diminishing the value of science, at least as I see it.

I see nothing wrong with diminishing the value of science. People look for it to perform some miracles. It has a track record of helping but also of hurting.

[Gaffer]

If you're waiting on a sermon from me, you're in trouble. Perhpas one of the fundamentalists around here can help you see the error of your ways.:poke:

In all honesty, I don't do this argument, and it sort of accidentally went this route. While I'm more than willing to engage in the arguments with those who feel the need to reassure themselves by renouncing God in public (on the board) with some seriously lame arguments, I don't do the "who's religion is the right-est" argument.

I don't like people trying to shove shit down my throat, so I at least try to treat others the same.

That's one of the things I like about you Gunny.