Morality based Law

[Classact]

If there is no victim should there be a crime? Should the American people be able to create laws based on religious or personal morals?

This is a debate between the progressive liberal and conservative population of America. It is my personal opinion the majority of progressive liberal secular folks do not believe in good and evil or clear cut right and wrong.

I was stationed in Germany which has a very progressive secular liberal majority. While there I was a member of a community ice hockey support club... the members were mostly single young Germans and we drowned victories and defeats over beer in local clubs. One day one of my German friends says to me and several other club friends: last night I sent Mercedes (an 18 yr old girl with a four month infant out of wedlock form a former boyfriend) out for some beers (they were shacking for a few days) and I let her daughter give me oral sex. I was shocked as I looked to the other friends for reaction.

How do you feel about mixing morals with law? Was there a victim? What do you think the reaction of the other ice hockey support club was?

[darin]

Most law is morality-based, IMO. Laws assign good or bad to various actions or inactions.

[Cheyenne]

If there is no victim should there be a crime? Should the American people be able to create laws based on religious or personal morals? .....How do you feel about mixing morals with law? Was there a victim? What do you think the reaction of the other ice hockey support club was?

How else are laws made? We don't kill because it's morally wrong. We don't allow our children to be abused (such as in this case) because it's morally wrong.
About the only thing I can think of that we have pertaining to something that doesn't involve morals is our traffic laws. Everyone trying to go through an intersection at once is just chaos.

[Hagbard Celine]

I think morality and law are intertwined. Morality is the instinctual compass we all have inside of ourselves that lets us define "right and wrong." I think law is the corporeal manifestation of the version of right and wrong that we all agree upon. That being said, I think there should be less actual laws. Especially when it comes to things like sex, drugs, etc. with qualifications of course. For instance, I think the age of consent laws are definately a good thing. I think we all agree that pedophilia is one of the "bad" things that should be restricted absolutely. But other sex laws, like the ones pertaining to sex positions, oral sex, etc. should be done away with. It's not the "people's" place to be dictating what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms.
I'm a little confused. Did Mercedes give the oral sex or did the four month old? It's not clear the way you wrote it. Because if it's the latter, that dude is sick. If it was Mercedes, all's fair in love and war.

[Immanuel]

I agree with the others, all laws (including traffic laws) are based upon someone's idea of morality. For instance, the anti-smoking laws in California we have been discussing are based upon the view, liberal in this case, that smoking significantly harms others and is thus immoral. All laws are based on someone's idea of morality.

Your description of the oral sex didn't make sense to me. You said Mercedes (who is 18) was sent out for some beer and that she had a four month old infant and that this friend of yours allowed Mercedes' daughter to perform oral sex on him. Was Mercedes' daughter the 4 month old? Heck! at 18 she could not possibly have a child more than three or four! Okay, I don't really want to know the details. Did you and I just not connect on the description of the incident?

Immie

[Classact]

Yes it was the four month daughter that he was bragging about that gave him oral sex... he wasn't really bragging but laughingly telling about the act...

The other German guys that were there didn't seem disgusted by his story... I no longer associated with this puke... and, I told Mercedes of what the guy told me... she broke up with him.

The reason I brought this up is because it came to mind when I was watching Bill O'Reilly the other day when he was condemning the VT leglislation and judges that had treated child abusers so forgivingly... some probation for young child abuse and some very short jail terms that seen to display that the judge/state legislation dissagrees with the moral base of the child abuse laws.

If you have followed the Bill O'Reilly campaign on protecting children do you see progressive liberalism as a means of lowering the bar on moral responsibility clouding the black and white to a shade of grey?

[darin]

a FOUR Month old? That baby wasn't giving him a BJ, that guy was raping that child. Wow. That's HORRIBLE. :(

[April15]

I agree with the others, all laws (including traffic laws) are based upon someone's idea of morality. For instance, the anti-smoking laws in California we have been discussing are based upon the view, liberal in this case, that smoking significantly harms others and is thus immoral. All laws are based on someone's idea of morality.

Your description of the oral sex didn't make sense to me. You said Mercedes (who is 18) was sent out for some beer and that she had a four month old infant and that this friend of yours allowed Mercedes' daughter to perform oral sex on him. Was Mercedes' daughter the 4 month old? Heck! at 18 she could not possibly have a child more than three or four! Okay, I don't really want to know the details. Did you and I just not connect on the description of the incident?

Immie

The smoking laws are not a morality issue but a health issue. You can still poison yourself just not the people who are near enough to be poisoned by your habit.

[glockmail]

Claasact I don't understand your premise. This guy raped a 4 month old and you're saying that there's no victim? The guy belongs in prison or on a chain dragging behind my truck.

[Classact]

Claasact I don't understand your premise. This guy raped a 4 month old and you're saying that there's no victim? The guy belongs in prison or on a chain dragging behind my truck.I agree that my morals also would demand that this person be separated from society for the rest of his life or until he no longer has the ability to harm children in such way... That brings me back to the Judges/state legislation in VT... it would appear that they dissagree with us.

My dad was born in 1905 and he told me a story as a young man about how the common law used to be for child abusers... he said in the beginning of our nation that a convicted child abuser was removed of all property and then stoned in the public square and then removed form that community boundry... logic being that if a a guy with no personal possessions shows up in your hood with busted up ribs and knot on his head he shouldn't be welcome. He went on to say that in his youth the common manner of dealing with child abusers didn't involve the court (this was in West Virginia)... "the men" would take the child abuser into the woods and place him on a stump of a tree and then staple all his goodies down to the stump... then they would give him a knife and cloth for a bandage and tell him he is at his own free will to be free.

The law in Germany and morals were in doubt to me so I didn't find it in my interest to report the incident to the police because I seemed to be the only person upset... Even Mercedes wasn't of high or even recognizable morals since she would leave the baby alone in her appartment for hours of parting and dancind and Ice hockey games... But then again it is quite common in Germany to see baby strollers parked outside of very expensive shops with three inches of snow on the covers in freezing temperatures... The children are all bundled up and would take to much time to unbundle them to shop so they park em in the snow unattended...

My interest is in the moral slide in VT and other areas as they differ in treatment of young children... in the mind of the other German guys when I asked them they said the baby will not remember so there was no crime...Do VT judges think similar to them?

[PostmodernProphet]

in the mind of the other German guys when I asked them they said the baby will not remember so there was no crime...

that has got to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard....I recommend you shoot them and forget you ever knew them.....that way, there will be no crime.....

[Immanuel]

The smoking laws are not a morality issue but a health issue. You can still poison yourself just not the people who are near enough to be poisoned by your habit.

On this you and I will have to agree to disagree. This is a morality based law. Not to mention heavily slanted to the "politically correct" side as well.

In fact, by your own statement this is a morality based law. You guys think it is immoral the adversely affect the health of another. With that I will not disagree. Therefore, you have made laws affecting the freedoms of people whom you believe to be immorally affecting the health of another.

Immie

[Cheyenne]

........they said the baby will not remember so there was no crime...This is where they're misinformed. The mind NEVER forgets. It may be buried in the subconscious but it is still there.

When this child has problems growing up or as an adult; they will never understand where it comes from.
That is one of the reasons why we are instructed to be careful what we hear & see.

And with that reasoning it would be okay to attack any severely retarded or Alzheimer person. Or what about someone under anesthetic or some other drug induced state? I have a friend who actually had this happen to her.
Any way you slice this, it's wrong.

[Classact]

This is where they're misinformed. The mind NEVER forgets. It may be buried in the subconscious but it is still there.

When this child has problems growing up or as an adult; they will never understand where it comes from.
That is one of the reasons why we are instructed to be careful what we hear & see.

And with that reasoning it would be okay to attack any severely retarded or Alzheimer person. Or what about someone under anesthetic or some other drug induced state? I have a friend who actually had this happen to her.
Any way you slice this, it's wrong.I agree completely... It is freaky what the mind hold in... One morning about four years ago I dreamed about the school bully from decades ago... he and I used to fight regularly for no apparent reason other than he would start it... any way I dreamed of searching him out and not even facing him face to face but shooting him in the knee... as I did it in my dream I suddenly woke up and had a hard time going back to sleep but when I did I dreamed about how bad I and all of the other children were to a extremely fat girl with a gland disorder in elementary school... she is the only girls name that I can remember from elementary school in the 1950's...

I didn't want to leave you folks with the idea that German people are basically immoral but simply a little hard to understand when it comes to sex... They advertize bra's starting with a nude woman and then she puts it on and complements its fit... no German male pays attention... likewise, most young US soldiers learn early when they meet a German girl and are invited to their home to ask to see the family photo album... they all go to Spain and all take nude pictures on the nude beach... they will show them to you with mom and dad sitting right beside. Sex and the nude body are not one and the same... they have no idea what a wardrobe malfunction is or why it is news. Public baths and steam baths have one undressing room and shower... it isn't sexual to see another person nude.

[glockmail]

......My interest is in the moral slide in VT and other areas as they differ in treatment of young children... in the mind of the other German guys when I asked them they said the baby will not remember so there was no crime...Do VT judges think similar to them?

I'm old enogh to remember the old Vermont. You decribed it yourself with your Dad's stories. Unfortunately Vermont became populated with hippies from New York who stuck around after Woodstock. Until then they thought the Catskills were the northern edge of the world. Upstate New Yorkers knew all too well about the down-state kids so demanded that they all go back to mum and dad. Being a rebellious lot many of them wandered over to Vermont where the locals knew little of them. Then they took the State over and we now have the result.

So to answer your question: yes, VT judges think sex with children is cool.

[glockmail]

...

I didn't want to leave you folks with the idea that German people are basically immoral but simply a little hard to understand when it comes to sex... They advertize bra's starting with a nude woman and then she puts it on and complements its fit... no German male pays attention... likewise, most young US soldiers learn early when they meet a German girl and are invited to their home to ask to see the family photo album... they all go to Spain and all take nude pictures on the nude beach... they will show them to you with mom and dad sitting right beside. Sex and the nude body are not one and the same... they have no idea what a wardrobe malfunction is or why it is news. Public baths and steam baths have one undressing room and shower... it isn't sexual to see another person nude.

A buddy of mine has two kids who live in Germay from a previous marraige. One time the boy was here visting with us and we were at the community pool. All of a sudden he drops trou and dives in. His dad had to grab a towel and fish him out. The poor kid had no idea what he did wrong. Another time his 12 year old daughter flies over and when she gets off the plane my buddies wife nearly screams when she sees her. She's wearing this top that's not much more that a string. Of course she's got nothing to hold the top on so all you can see is nipples.

[Classact]

A buddy of mine has two kids who live in Germay from a previous marraige. One time the boy was here visting with us and we were at the community pool. All of a sudden he drops trou and dives in. His dad had to grab a towel and fish him out. The poor kid had no idea what he did wrong. Another time his 12 year old daughter flies over and when she gets off the plane my buddies wife nearly screams when she sees her. She's wearing this top that's not much more that a string. Of course she's got nothing to hold the top on so all you can see is nipples.My last assignment in Germany was in a university city and spring ment going to McDonalds... buy a big mack and a bier, yes they have beer in Micky D's and then find a nice seat on the wroth iron seats and tables on the sidewalks and watch the the silver dollar dance under the new French see through blouses... ouch! Got to look away before you can stand up... there everywhere they're are everywhere and they all look so hot...

[glockmail]

My last assignment in Germany was in a university city and spring ment going to McDonalds... buy a big mack and a bier, yes they have beer in Micky D's and then find a nice seat on the wroth iron seats and tables on the sidewalks and watch the the silver dollar dance under the new French see through blouses... ouch! Got to look away before you can stand up... there everywhere they're are everywhere and they all look so hot...


Well I've been thinking of visiting Germany and my ancestral towns in south Baden-Wurtemmberg but if I do with my kids it will be during the winter. I don't expect many see through blouses then.

Although I'm sure out in the hinterlands where I'd be it would be much different that where you were. Just like Yadkinville, NC is different than Boston, NY or LA.

[Cheyenne]

....I didn't want to leave you folks with the idea that German people are basically immoral but simply a little hard to understand when it comes to sex...
I can say with all honesty that times have changed there as well as everywhere else. Both of my paternal grandparents were German, came over here right after WWII; they were VERY moral people.

[diuretic]

If you have followed the Bill O'Reilly campaign on protecting children do you see progressive liberalism as a means of lowering the bar on moral responsibility clouding the black and white to a shade of grey?

No, I don't see progressive liberalism as doing this. Just as I don't see the fact that a string of Republicans have been convicted of sex crimes as representing some sort of right-wing attack on general morality.

[Classact]

Well I've been thinking of visiting Germany and my ancestral towns in south Baden-Wurtemmberg but if I do with my kids it will be during the winter. I don't expect many see through blouses then.

Although I'm sure out in the hinterlands where I'd be it would be much different that where you were. Just like Yadkinville, NC is different than Boston, NY or LA.Where is Baden-Wurtemmberg? Bad and Baden indicates the town is a government retreat for citizens... Bad=cure... my last vist to Germany was in Bad Kreuznach and each bad has a specialty... some are for curing stress, others for drying out from drinking too much or many, many more... If you get stressed out at work you go to the doctor and explain the stress and he will prescribe you a trip to a bad... pretty cool... you're right I seldom raised an eyebrow at Bad Kreuznach ... but if it gets hot the folks will come out of some clothes...

I can say with all honesty that times have changed there as well as everywhere else. Both of my paternal grandparents were German, came over here right after WWII; they were VERY moral people.You have to go there to smell it and see it as it is today to even get an idea how things are... I'm thinking religion is pretty much a thing of the past there now... to visit a six or seven hundred year old church and see how important it was in the past is really an experience... in rural Bavaria every town as a church as pretty as a post card but many of them now are bed and breakfasts...

No, I don't see progressive liberalism as doing this. Just as I don't see the fact that a string of Republicans have been convicted of sex crimes as representing some sort of right-wing attack on general morality.How do you explain that judges release people who have abused very young children on parole and treatment in VT but a thousand miles away the same crime would result in maybe 25 years behind bars... It seems that the judges see the child abuser as a victim of illness and dismiss the victim as a non victim since the abuser was sick...In the case of gay Republicans they just stand out because they don't match the conservative mold they are supposed to represent... I hardly see the balance in your point of view or maybe I missed something or misunderstood.

[glockmail]

Where is Baden-Wurtemmberg? Bad and Baden indicates the town is a government retreat for citizens... Bad=cure... my last vist to Germany was in Bad Kreuznach and each bad has a specialty... some are for curing stress, others for drying out from drinking too much or many, many more... If you get stressed out at work you go to the doctor and explain the stress and he will prescribe you a trip to a bad... pretty cool... you're right I seldom raised an eyebrow at Bad Kreuznach ... but if it gets hot the folks will come out of some clothes....

Baden-Wurtemmberg is the State that includes Stuttgart. It is west of Bavaria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg

Back in my ancestors day (pre-1865) it was just Wurtemmberg. A lot of people confuse it with Wittenberg (including me until last week), a famous German city about 400 miles north. Wittenberg was where Martin Luther nailed his Theses to the door of the Catholic church.

I found out that Hermann Einstein, father of Albert Einstein, was born in Buchau in 1847. Its now Bad-Buchau. That's where my great times 4 grandfather settled after getting into a beef with his parents over knocking up an older woman! He was forced to leave their village and it took him four years to get up enough dough to marry the girl. They had 8 kids, three of which emigrated to the US.

[Classact]

Baden-Wurtemmberg is the State that includes Stuttgart. It is west of Bavaria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-W%C3%BCrttemberg

Back in my ancestors day (pre-1865) it was just Wurtemmberg. A lot of people confuse it with Wittenberg (including me until last week), a famous German city about 400 miles north. Wittenberg was where Martin Luther nailed his Theses to the door of the Catholic church.

I found out that Hermann Einstein, father of Albert Einstein, was born in Buchau in 1847. Its now Bad-Buchau. That's where my great times 4 grandfather settled after getting into a beef with his parents over knocking up an older woman! He was forced to leave their village and it took him four years to get up enough dough to marry the girl. They had 8 kids, three of which emigrated to the US.Duh, I may have mispoken about "Baden" It may not be a "cure" but "bad" pronounced baud is considered a town or place of a cure... even the public swimming pool is called "swim bad"... after looking at your link I realized I've been in that area... my wife and I traveled all across Germany going on Volks Marches, which are like 5K or 10K walks in the countryside... they give out metals and bier mugs commemerating finishing the event and I just pulled one down from the cabinet that reads Rodgau-Wanderberung Epppertshausen 1991 and I think this place is in the state you speak of west of Stugart... god, Stugart is endless you enter it leave it and then your back in it over and over going to this place...

[Yurt]

If there is no victim should there be a crime? Should the American people be able to create laws based on religious or personal morals?

This is a debate between the progressive liberal and conservative population of America. It is my personal opinion the majority of progressive liberal secular folks do not believe in good and evil or clear cut right and wrong.

I was stationed in Germany which has a very progressive secular liberal majority. While there I was a member of a community ice hockey support club... the members were mostly single young Germans and we drowned victories and defeats over beer in local clubs. One day one of my German friends says to me and several other club friends: last night I sent Mercedes (an 18 yr old girl with a four month infant out of wedlock form a former boyfriend) out for some beers (they were shacking for a few days) and I let her daughter give me oral sex. I was shocked as I looked to the other friends for reaction.

How do you feel about mixing morals with law? Was there a victim? What do you think the reaction of the other ice hockey support club was?


What morality are you effing talking about? This is a facking lie. You can't "let" a four month old do what he said, that is bullshite. He had to physically move the INFANT.....well...gross, but you get the point. The INFANT did NOT chose.

castrate, then ...........ah, can't even think about it

[glockmail]

What morality are you effing talking about? This is a facking lie. You can't "let" a four month old do what he said, that is bullshite. He had to physically move the INFANT.....well...gross, but you get the point. The INFANT did NOT chose.

castrate, then ...........ah, can't even think about it
Before a kid is 2 or 3 it puts its mouth on anything and tries to consume it. Its a instinctive response to get food into its mouth. Its also why babies/ toddlers get sick all the time, and choke on stuff.

[diuretic]

....How do you explain that judges release people who have abused very young children on parole and treatment in VT but a thousand miles away the same crime would result in maybe 25 years behind bars... It seems that the judges see the child abuser as a victim of illness and dismiss the victim as a non victim since the abuser was sick...In the case of gay Republicans they just stand out because they don't match the conservative mold they are supposed to represent... I hardly see the balance in your point of view or maybe I missed something or misunderstood.

If you think being straight or being gay has something to do with political persuasion then you're living in a very strange bubble.

http://www.republicansexoffenders.com/

Here, knock yourself out.

[actsnoblemartin]

this is a brilliant post, and i believe laws should be based on morals and right and wrong does exist, even if some liberals dont believe in it.


If there is no victim should there be a crime? Should the American people be able to create laws based on religious or personal morals?

This is a debate between the progressive liberal and conservative population of America. It is my personal opinion the majority of progressive liberal secular folks do not believe in good and evil or clear cut right and wrong.

I was stationed in Germany which has a very progressive secular liberal majority. While there I was a member of a community ice hockey support club... the members were mostly single young Germans and we drowned victories and defeats over beer in local clubs. One day one of my German friends says to me and several other club friends: last night I sent Mercedes (an 18 yr old girl with a four month infant out of wedlock form a former boyfriend) out for some beers (they were shacking for a few days) and I let her daughter give me oral sex. I was shocked as I looked to the other friends for reaction.

How do you feel about mixing morals with law? Was there a victim? What do you think the reaction of the other ice hockey support club was?

[82Marine89]

I agree that my morals also would demand that this person be separated from society for the rest of his life or until he no longer has the ability to harm children in such way...

My morals say that his body needs to be separated from his appendages.

[82Marine89]

Hey psycho, care to say that out loud?

[Psychoblues]

Just what are you? A barbarian?


My morals say that his body needs to be separated from his appendages.

I haven't fought for the power of America to defend idiots like you.

[actsnoblemartin]

what mess he talking now?


Hey psycho, care to say that out loud?

[Psychoblues]

OK, OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!

I DID NOT FIGHT TO DEFEND AMERICA TO FURTHER PROMOTE THE IDIOCIES THAT YOU DEMONSTRATE TO DEFINE YOURSELF.

Maybe you dig it and maybe you don't. If I met you in a rice field in Viet Nam or a desert in Iraq I would still consider you an enemy combatant and as quickly as possible dispose of you.

Can you understand English?

[actsnoblemartin]

Can you be specific. Are you saying america is evil, and you would fight us, on the battle field, and that you support enemy combatants, i dont wanna put words in your mouth, so please clarify

thank you


OK, OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!

I DID NOT FIGHT TO DEFEND AMERICA TO FURTHER PROMOTE THE IDIOCIES THAT YOU DEMONSTRATE TO DEFINE YOURSELF.

Maybe you dig it and maybe you don't. If I met you in a rice field in Viet Nam or a desert in Iraq I would still consider you an enemy combatant and as quickly as possible dispose of you.

Can you understand English?

[82Marine89]

Just what are you? A barbarian?


I haven't fought for the power of America to defend idiots like you.

You served?

[glockmail]

You served? Yeah he did. But you won't hear an answer from him for 6 months or more.

[Hagbard Celine]

My morals say that his body needs to be separated from his appendages.

Can't say I disagree with you. I think there should be more vigilante justice, like in the old days. If some scumbag pedophile raped your kid, you and a few men and boys from the neighborhood banded together with whatever blunt objects they had nearest them--bat, axe handle, whatever--and marched down to the guys house, took him to a field and delivered swift justice to him. He disappeared and nobody ever spoke of it again. A secret taken to the grave. Men's justice. However, I don't like the idea of government-sanctioned capital punishment. Obviously I'm conflicted, but I really, really don't agree with government-sanctioned capital punishment. I don't know where a middle-ground solution lies.

[Yurt]

Before a kid is 2 or 3 it puts its mouth on anything and tries to consume it. Its a instinctive response to get food into its mouth. Its also why babies/ toddlers get sick all the time, and choke on stuff.

the baby did not crawl on his lap....and simply open the guys pants...

[Immanuel]

Can't say I disagree with you. I think there should be more vigilante justice, like in the old days. If some scumbag pedophile raped your kid, you and a few men and boys from the neighborhood banded together with whatever blunt objects they had nearest them--bat, axe handle, whatever--and marched down to the guys house, took him to a field and delivered swift justice to him. He disappeared and nobody ever spoke of it again. A secret taken to the grave. Men's justice. However, I don't like the idea of government-sanctioned capital punishment. Obviously I'm conflicted, but I really, really don't agree with government-sanctioned capital punishment. I don't know where a middle-ground solution lies.

In this case, I have no problem with what you say here, but, in most cases, I would have a problem. How many innocent people would be beaten, maybe even to death, by a vigilante mob because they believed some terrible act was done by so and so only to find out that the accused was not even in the area of the offense? Or then you have the Emmitt Till story where a 14 year old black boy was beaten to death because he whistled or spoke to a white woman.

As you can probably tell, I'm not too keen on vigilante justice.

Immie

[glockmail]

the baby did not crawl on his lap....and simply open the guys pants...
No kidding!

[Cheyenne]

Can't say I disagree with you. I think there should be more vigilante justice, like in the old days......... Men's justice. However, I don't like the idea of government-sanctioned capital punishment. Obviously I'm conflicted, but I really, really don't agree with government-sanctioned capital punishment. I don't know where a middle-ground solution lies.

While I understand your feelings on this, our system of government is the best there is. Even in Bible times they had a justice system set in place to eradicate evil.

This wasn't an accident. This was a blatant act of immorality and the man does not deserve to breathe; not one more breath.
Think about it, if this man could find it okay in his mind to do such a thing to an infant, what must he be doing today? Think his behavior & reasoning has gotten better?

And while I know there are many who have been in prison who have found Christ & changed their lives, that is indeed a rarity.
I believe that punishment should be swift & just; long enough for a person to get their affairs & life in order; not this 20 years on death row stuff.

Then again I have never had personal experience with this. Maybe if it were my son sitting there awaiting execution, I might feel differently; but I hope not.

See if you can find the movie, I think it's called, "The Life of David Gale" starring Kevin Spacey. Deals with your argument.

[Classact]

OK, OUT LOUD!!!!!!!!!

I DID NOT FIGHT TO DEFEND AMERICA TO FURTHER PROMOTE THE IDIOCIES THAT YOU DEMONSTRATE TO DEFINE YOURSELF.

Maybe you dig it and maybe you don't. If I met you in a rice field in Viet Nam or a desert in Iraq I would still consider you an enemy combatant and as quickly as possible dispose of you.

Can you understand English?Hey Psychoblues who did you fight for and where did you fight? I served in the Army from 67 to 88 and your dribble sounds like that coming out of the mouths of forklift operators or cooks in the rear area of Vietnam... I worked with a lot of grunts and they don't spew out what they did or would do but have eyes that clearly show they know death first hand.

My service was for all Americans and in my youth I was liberal and matured into conservatism... You parse words to say you would kill someone because they don't think or agree to the way you think and from that I don't see an American blurting it out... Words like those quoted from you is what fueled the anti war crowd eliminating a welcome for soldiers returning from Vietnam... slip out of the blues long enough to rationally debate rather than threat of what you would do... that, in fact is the purpose of boards like this... Check out the web link it starts with "debate" and not club or gun... disagree state why and explain otherwise just watch others debate.

[gabosaurus]

Most law is morality-based, IMO. Laws assign good or bad to various actions or inactions.

Excellent point. Never thought of it that way.

[Classact]

Based on the emphisis of the Supreme Court members selection along with the selection of the people that select them the law seems to be up to who views it.

In Korea it is law that all persons must secure their homes at all times with the exception of Police and leaders of government. If a theif breaks in and steals everything you have no recourse because the law places the security of personal property on you unless you are in the exceptions catagory. Why because they look at do unto others as you would have them do unto you differently... they think everyone born is born to do something even if that something is a theif... it is a persons destiny... if the destiny was to be a doctor the rule is the same "be the best" and being the best as a theif means not getting caught. I was at the MP station when the KNP's notified my interpreter that a thief had broken into his house... we went to the Police Box where the thief was detained so the victim could witness punishment... the punishment for not being the best was having all bones crushed in both hands up to the wrist and then released. Korean people do not give food to people with both hands crushed so they must eat with the street dogs or die.

[actsnoblemartin]

I'd like to see the criminal justice system fixed, so money cant buy you freedom.


In this case, I have no problem with what you say here, but, in most cases, I would have a problem. How many innocent people would be beaten, maybe even to death, by a vigilante mob because they believed some terrible act was done by so and so only to find out that the accused was not even in the area of the offense? Or then you have the Emmitt Till story where a 14 year old black boy was beaten to death because he whistled or spoke to a white woman.

As you can probably tell, I'm not too keen on vigilante justice.

Immie

[Immanuel]

I'd like to see the criminal justice system fixed, so money cant buy you freedom.

Me too but then we'd also have to fix the political system and that will happen six months after Hell freezes over.

Immie

[Classact]

Can't say I disagree with you. I think there should be more vigilante justice, like in the old days. If some scumbag pedophile raped your kid, you and a few men and boys from the neighborhood banded together with whatever blunt objects they had nearest them--bat, axe handle, whatever--and marched down to the guys house, took him to a field and delivered swift justice to him. He disappeared and nobody ever spoke of it again. A secret taken to the grave. Men's justice. However, I don't like the idea of government-sanctioned capital punishment. Obviously I'm conflicted, but I really, really don't agree with government-sanctioned capital punishment. I don't know where a middle-ground solution lies.
My wife will not discuss child abusers other than to say, just kill them. I on the other hand am with you that I don't agree with the death penalty. I enjoy the rule of law but once a court has found a citizen of a crime guilty then that citizen should be punished and not rehabilitated... the emphisis seems to be on looking out for the protection of the guilty persons rights rather than looking out for the rights of the victim(s). In the case of most violent felonies I think the person should be separated from society for the rest of their lives and not at the cost of the taxpayer. A citizen found guilty of crime that destroys another citizens life such as in child abuse deserves to be separate from sane citizens forever and that guilty person should have to pay for his/her upkeep and export wealth to the victim of his crime. I like the idea of these types being in a commune far away from other people where they produce animals as they live like animals and the excess production of these animals are exported to law abiding citizens that were victims.

If a person who intentionally ends an inocent persons life, and that includes child abuse of young children, doesn't deserve airconditioning or any type of climate control, electricity, telephone or visitation. That person deserves to live a stark life... The PA Dutch live such a life and the government does not force them to use airconditioning or any type of climate control, electricity, telephone... if their lifestyle is cruel and unusual in the eyes of the government then their children should be removed from them. Since the government agrees that the PA Dutch has an acceptable lifestyle then prisoners guilty of crime should experience that extreme of lifestyle. Perhaps then people wouldn't be conflicted about what to do with evil citizens.

[actsnoblemartin]

if its a guy, cut off their dick, balls, hands, and tongue.

if its a woman, cut off her boobs, hands, ****, ovaries, and tongue

if its both :coffee:, you have a lot of work to do


My wife will not discuss child abusers other than to say, just kill them. I on the other hand am with you that I don't agree with the death penalty. I enjoy the rule of law but once a court has found a citizen of a crime guilty then that citizen should be punished and not rehabilitated... the emphisis seems to be on looking out for the protection of the guilty persons rights rather than looking out for the rights of the victim(s). In the case of most violent felonies I think the person should be separated from society for the rest of their lives and not at the cost of the taxpayer. A citizen found guilty of crime that destroys another citizens life such as in child abuse deserves to be separate from sane citizens forever and that guilty person should have to pay for his/her upkeep and export wealth to the victim of his crime. I like the idea of these types being in a commune far away from other people where they produce animals as they live like animals and the excess production of these animals are exported to law abiding citizens that were victims.

If a person who intentionally ends an inocent persons life, and that includes child abuse of young children, doesn't deserve airconditioning or any type of climate control, electricity, telephone or visitation. That person deserves to live a stark life... The PA Dutch live such a life and the government does not force them to use airconditioning or any type of climate control, electricity, telephone... if their lifestyle is cruel and unusual in the eyes of the government then their children should be removed from them. Since the government agrees that the PA Dutch has an acceptable lifestyle then prisoners guilty of crime should experience that extreme of lifestyle. Perhaps then people wouldn't be conflicted about what to do with evil citizens.

[Cheyenne]

.... I on the other hand am with you that I don't agree with the death penalty.May I ask why?

[Classact]

May I ask why?It's too damned easy and too damned expensive... the pukes should be making big rocks into little rocks or be knee deep in pig crap for the rest of their natural life living with and like the animals they are and not on the taxpayers dime.

[Cheyenne]

It's too damned easy and too damned expensive... the pukes should be making big rocks into little rocks or be knee deep in pig crap for the rest of their natural life living with and like the animals they are and not on the taxpayers dime.You think keeping them supplied with rocks or in pig-sh*t isn't on our dime???? Year after year after year?
You can get a Winchester hollow point for about ONE dollar.

[Classact]

You think keeping them supplied with rocks or in pig-sh*t isn't on our dime???? Year after year after year?
You can get a Winchester hollow point for about ONE dollar.You dump them in a commune full of horses, pigs, chickens, cows and sheep... give em books on how to use the shovels, horses to plow, knives to cut meat and all the requirements of feeding themselves... It would be a one time outlay of animals, seeds and so on... if they refuse to work well I guess they die of natural causes. Put a fence around the place and then landmines around the fence and then another fence. No guards... they want to kill each other then more work for those remaining to grow stuff to eat.

[glockmail]

You think keeping them supplied with rocks or in pig-sh*t isn't on our dime???? Year after year after year?
You can get a Winchester hollow point for about ONE dollar. A box of 50 .22's are less than 5 bucks and work wonders when inserted into the temple, as they deflect off the inside of the skull and rattle around a bit until they stop. A lot less outside mess, cheaper and just as effective.

[Cheyenne]

A box of 50 .22's are less than 5 bucks and work wonders when inserted into the temple, as they deflect off the inside of the skull and rattle around a bit until they stop. A lot less outside mess, cheaper and just as effective.
I vote for anything that gets the job done...with less mess. Thank you. I'll remember that. ;)

[Cheyenne]

You dump them in a commune full of horses, pigs, chickens, cows and sheep... give em books on how to use the shovels, horses to plow, knives to cut meat and all the requirements of feeding themselves... It would be a one time outlay of animals, seeds and so on... if they refuse to work well I guess they die of natural causes. Put a fence around the place and then landmines around the fence and then another fence. No guards... they want to kill each other then more work for those remaining to grow stuff to eat.

I really don't want to argue about this. And I understand what you're saying. But until they kill each other off, our system is still responsible for them. And there is always the chance that they will find some means of escape & re-enter society. There are some that do NOT deserve life....any kind of life.

[glockmail]

You dump them in a commune full of horses, pigs, chickens, cows and sheep... give em books on how to use the shovels, horses to plow, knives to cut meat and all the requirements of feeding themselves... It would be a one time outlay of animals, seeds and so on... if they refuse to work well I guess they die of natural causes. Put a fence around the place and then landmines around the fence and then another fence. No guards... they want to kill each other then more work for those remaining to grow stuff to eat. The Brits did that, now we're left with the mess of Australia. :laugh2:

[Classact]

I really don't want to argue about this. And I understand what you're saying. But until they kill each other off, our system is still responsible for them. And there is always the chance that they will find some means of escape & re-enter society. There are some that do NOT deserve life....any kind of life.You sound like my wife... this is just a debate and we can't shoot them or put them in a commune... the lawyers, oh, the lawyers and the cruel and unusual punishment crowd... People who harm young children should live in abject tortortous conditions until they die... the more horific the better... The burry the guy up to his head in a fire ant hill would do fine of the wet leather strap tied around the genitalia would do wonders... but in real life it only gets easier for criminals.

[Cheyenne]

You sound like my wife... I will take that as a compliment. :)

this is just a debate and we can't shoot them or put them in a commune... the lawyers, oh, the lawyers and the cruel and unusual punishment crowd... People who harm young children should live in abject tortortous conditions until they die... the more horific the better... The burry the guy up to his head in a fire ant hill would do fine of the wet leather strap tied around the genitalia would do wonders... but in real life it only gets easier for criminals.While I think torture is too good for them, the humane thing would be to just rid the earth of their presence. And the lawyers right with them.

[Cheyenne]

And then, there's always this. But in this day & age of our DNA testing, this should be a thing of the past.

http://truthinjustice.org/willie-williams.htm

[glockmail]

You sound like my wife... this is just a debate and we can't shoot them or put them in a commune... the lawyers, oh, the lawyers and the cruel and unusual punishment crowd... People who harm young children should live in abject tortortous conditions until they die... the more horific the better... The burry the guy up to his head in a fire ant hill would do fine of the wet leather strap tied around the genitalia would do wonders... but in real life it only gets easier for criminals.

I don't think its civilized for a society to deal with criminals in that manner. Just off them, bury them, do it quickly and quietly and be done with it. Leave torture and public humiliation up to the Islamic radicals.

[Classact]

I don't think its civilized for a society to deal with criminals in that manner. Just off them, bury them, do it quickly and quietly and be done with it. Leave torture and public humiliation up to the Islamic radicals.It is easy on a faceless computer to make a complex problem simple... no one wants to subject a wrongly accused person to harsh treatment... For me it is a frustration with the system that seems to allow more protections of rights of subjects of crime verses the victims of crime that causes me to blurt out alternatives.

I see the two border patrol guys story where they are in seclusion for their protection and am awe as to how the law can be so twisted... There has to be a way that jail isn't something you can write a rap song about and make money... there has to be a way to reduce cost to the taxpayer. There has to be a way to protect the rights and reimburse victims of crime for that crime. Put them all on a treadmill and let them generate electricity or something to pay back for what they took.

[manu1959]

Should the American people be able to create laws based on religious or personal morals?


yes they should.....for if they can't then you can make a law preventing it.....

[Psychoblues]

I served and I did my absolute best.



You served?

Much to the chagrin of these chickenhawks that would immediately call into question my service to my country while in uniform I still serve my country as an advocate for our Veterans and especially as an advocate for all the rights and reputation of the country that I believe in.

[Kathianne]

I served and I did my absolute best.




Much to the chagrin of these chickenhawks that would immediately call into question my service to my country while in uniform I still serve my country as an advocate for our Veterans and especially as an advocate for all the rights and reputation of the country that I believe in.

Since 82 Marine may not be familiar with PB, let's let the claims of serving from at least Korea in the 50's to Iraq in 90's suffice. PB, claims to have seen all, from these endposts and everything possible inbetween. He's the one service member that never had a break from bullets flying.

[Psychoblues]

Kathianne is the liar she has always been since I met her.



Since 82 Marine may not be familiar with PB, let's let the claims of serving from at least Korea in the 50's to Iraq in 90's suffice. PB, claims to have seen all, from these endposts and everything possible inbetween. He's the one service member that never had a break from bullets flying.

My service was from 1968 till 1991. She repeats horseshit that she wants to believe in and remembers nothing that I've straightened her out on before. You got questions of me? Ask them, please and certainly please ignore the chickenhawks.

To answer your question succinctly, kitty, No. I will not fuck you.

[Kathianne]

Kathianne is the liar she has always been since I met her.




My service was from 1968 till 1991. She repeats horseshit that she wants to believe in and remembers nothing that I've straightened her out on before. You got questions of me? Ask them, please and certainly please ignore the chickenhawks.

To answer your question succinctly, kitty, No. I will not fuck you.

We all are greatful for your last sentence. However, the claims of PB and going back to Korea, if not WWII may be available at Jim's old site.

[Psychoblues]

Keep repeating that ol' shit, kitty, but it won't make it true. Cite the old site and search all you want. The records are still there and I never said anything like you intimate.



We all are greatful for your last sentence. However, the claims of PB and going back to Korea, if not WWII may be available at Jim's old site.

And again, No, I will not fuck you although you are doing your best to fuck me. Prove your goddamned lies or just shut the fuck up, OK?

[Kathianne]

Keep repeating that ol' shit, kitty, but it won't make it true. Cite the old site and search all you want. The records are still there and I never said anything like you intimate.




And again, No, I will not fuck you although you are doing your best to fuck me. Prove your goddamned lies or just shut the fuck up, OK?

Nothing with you is OK. You are a walking advertisement to how we've let down the troops, regarding mental illness. Of course, that is dependent on the assumption you ever served, but less for nearly 50 years.

[Psychoblues]

You are still the piece of shit that I met about 5 years ago, kitty.



Nothing with you is OK. You are a walking advertisement to how we've let down the troops, regarding mental illness. Of course, that is dependent on the assumption you ever served, but less for nearly 50 years.

And you are still the liar that you promised you would be. Cite the site, quote the quotes, I haven't ever said the things that you are attempting to intimate here. I did more yesterday to help Veterans than you have done in your lifetime.

[Kathianne]

You are still the piece of shit that I met about 5 years ago, kitty.




And you are still the liar that you promised you would be. Cite the site, quote the quotes, I haven't ever said the things that you are attempting to intimate here. I did more yesterday to help Veterans than you have done in your lifetime.

F off. You are the only one I've met on mb's that I think is probably a liar. I highly doubt you ever served.

[Psychoblues]

You made your statement and you know you are a fucking liar and a repeater of lies.



F off. You are the only one I've met on mb's that I think is probably a liar. I highly doubt you ever served.

Now you want to justify your ignorance and arrogance by including the qualifiers "probably" and "I highly doubt". You fuck off, kitty. I didn't give you any personal invitation to this conversation and you haven't demonstrated any expertise that sheds new light on the subject at hand or anything else that I can respect.

Again, I ain't fuckin' you so please stop trying to fuck me.