No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare

[truthmatters]

The Most Dreaded Enemy of Liberty

By James Madison

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. . . . [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and . . . degeneracy of manners and of morals. . . . No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. . . .

[It should be well understood] that the powers proposed to be surrendered [by the Third Congress] to the Executive were those which the Constitution has most jealously appropriated to the Legislature. . . .

The Constitution expressly and exclusively vests in the Legislature the power of declaring a state of war . . . the power of raising armies . . . the power of creating offices. . . .

A delegation of such powers [to the President] would have struck, not only at the fabric of our Constitution, but at the foundation of all well organized and well checked governments.

The separation of the power of declaring war from that of conducting it, is wisely contrived to exclude the danger of its being declared for the sake of its being conducted.

The separation of the power of raising armies from the power of commanding them, is intended to prevent the raising of armies for the sake of commanding them.

The separation of the power of creating offices from that of filling them, is an essential guard against the temptation to create offices for the sake of gratifying favourites or multiplying dependents.

James Madison was the fourth president of the United States. This is from Letters and Other Writings of James Madison.



http://www.fff.org/freedom/0893e.asp

[jimnyc]

Since this is written with proper paragraphs, punctuation and spelling, I'm having a hard time believing that you wrote it. Can you please cite the source so we don't run afoul of copyright violations. Thanks

[JohnDoe]

Since this is written with proper paragraphs, punctuation and spelling, I'm having a hard time believing that you wrote it. Can you please cite the source so we don't run afoul of copyright violations. Thanks

good morning Jim,

James Madison, a founding father? it is in her post at the top, right before the statement he made.

jd

[jimnyc]

good morning Jim,

James Madison, a founding father? it is in her post at the top, right before the statement he made.

jd

Are you trying to claim that TM memorized this and wrote it herself? Get real! It doesn't matter that he originally authored it, it neither belongs to her or this board, and proper citations must be given.

[truthmatters]

Thanks JD

[jimnyc]

Thanks JD

Please cite your source or the thread is subject to removal.

[jimnyc]

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0893e.asp

Thank you

[truthmatters]

I thought since it was a direct quote that siting his name was enough ,sorry

[jimnyc]

I thought since it was a direct quote that siting his name was enough ,sorry

But it WAS a direct publication re-pasted here, and your link proves that. Had I believed you were around when Madison spoke the words and you were just conveying his words, it would have stood. But we both know that wasn't the case.

[darin]

Funny - I read this thread as "..continual WELFARE" I bet the word could be substituted and the piece would make sense. :)

Regarding this thread: The sad part is, we didn't start this war, and we won't get to decide when it's over. :(

[avatar4321]

Funny - I read this thread as "..continual WELFARE" I bet the word could be substituted and the piece would make sense. :)

Regarding this thread: The sad part is, we didn't start this war, and we won't get to decide when it's over. :(

It may never be over

[truthmatters]

But it WAS a direct publication re-pasted here, and your link proves that. Had I believed you were around when Madison spoke the words and you were just conveying his words, it would have stood. But we both know that wasn't the case.


Funny thing is this was not the place I found this speach this morning. I copied the name of the speach and his name to my search window to find it again and this site came up so I used it.

It is the historical way it was recorded on the day he said it with all his pauses adn such intact.

[truthmatters]

Funny - I read this thread as "..continual WELFARE" I bet the word could be substituted and the piece would make sense. :)

Regarding this thread: The sad part is, we didn't start this war, and we won't get to decide when it's over. :(


???????

We did start the war in Iraq unprovoked.

[Sir Evil]

Funny thing is this was not the place I found this speach this morning. I copied the name of the speach and his name to my search window to find it again and this site came up so I used it.

It is the historical way it was recorded on the day he said it with all his pauses adn such intact.

SPEECH, it's speech you dumbass!

[jimnyc]

???????

We did start the war in Iraq unprovoked.

Bullshit at it's best. Rationalize your statements all you like but 12 years and 17 failed resolutions didn't just come from a monkeys ass!

[truthmatters]

We attacked Iraq. They were no threat to us.

[Sir Evil]

We attacked Iraq. They were no threat to us.

:laugh2:

get a clue dumbass

[darin]

She thinks that because she was never in an F16 patrolling the no-fly zone, as she was shot-at by Iraqi SAMs. :)

She thinks Saddam was HONORABLE and honest.

[truthmatters]

When we did shock and awe what was the threat from Saddam to The US?

[darin]

That's fodder for a new thread, okay?

[truthmatters]

This whole thread is about war. The Iraq war is ......well ........ a war.

[darin]

But you are no longer discussing the OP, but asking for 'proof the war in Iraq was justified.' Different topic.

[truthmatters]

Funny - I read this thread as "..continual WELFARE" I bet the word could be substituted and the piece would make sense. :)

Regarding this thread: The sad part is, we didn't start this war, and we won't get to decide when it's over. :(

You are the one who took it there.

[5stringJeff]

We attacked Iraq. They were no threat to us.

More specifically, Congress authorized the President to use force in Iraq. If this Congress wants the war to end, they should revoke the Iraq War resolution.

[Yurt]

This whole thread is about war. The Iraq war is ......well ........ a war.

No its not. I think Jeff made a great post a while back on it and showed that the war is over. What is happening now is a guerrilla campaign by NON uniformed civilians. Go read the definition of war and you will see that there is no official government that we are at war with. We are only dealing with a very little minority who wishes to sabotage the Iraqi government for their own perverse gains. Further, it is clear the muslims have been killing each other far more than americans.

This is a police action, not war.

[Gaffer]

Shock and awe seems to be a favorite term used by the libs here. As if its a special weapon used by the evil military. I guarantee you if one bomb or missile exploded within a hundred yards of you, you would be shocked and awed. Its a term used to imply a psychological effect on the enemy and nothing more. The civilians of iraq were relatively unscathed. But the iraqi army was decimated. Lots of big explosions and machine gun fire tends to make people get up and run away which is what shock and awe is all about. saddams 25 divisions couldn't cut and run fast enough.

It was a reopening of the first gulf war. saddam had reneged on all the agreements made during the first war. The war with saddam was over in three weeks. The occupation and rebuilding of iraq is ongoing. The war with iran is continuing to develop.

[Dilloduck]

Shock and awe seems to be a favorite term used by the libs here. As if its a special weapon used by the evil military. I guarantee you if one bomb or missile exploded within a hundred yards of you, you would be shocked and awed. Its a term used to imply a psychological effect on the enemy and nothing more. The civilians of iraq were relatively unscathed. But the iraqi army was decimated. Lots of big explosions and machine gun fire tends to make people get up and run away which is what shock and awe is all about. saddams 25 divisions couldn't cut and run fast enough.

It was a reopening of the first gulf war. saddam had reneged on all the agreements made during the first war. The war with saddam was over in three weeks. The occupation and rebuilding of iraq is ongoing. The war with iran is continuing to develop.

Agreed--it would be great if we could come up with solutions instead of laying blame and being armchair generals. I can only imagine our troops reading this board and becoming royally pissed and disgusted. They want to win and come home. Doing nothing would help them more than the negative shit that pours outta here. They don't get to hit "turn off computer" and be away from it all.

[manu1959]

northern ireland has.....

[JohnDoe]

No its not. I think Jeff made a great post a while back on it and showed that the war is over. What is happening now is a guerrilla campaign by NON uniformed civilians. Go read the definition of war and you will see that there is no official government that we are at war with. We are only dealing with a very little minority who wishes to sabotage the Iraqi government for their own perverse gains. Further, it is clear the muslims have been killing each other far more than americans.

This is a police action, not war. Yurt, i am not sure about it being ''just a police action'' ...it is costing us now about $200,000,000,000 a year....in a relatively tiny country!!! I think it is costing us more than any war in our history and moreso now, when it is not suppose to be a war! so, police action is a tad shy of what I would call it...

I do understand that it is not a traditional war, and that we did win the traditional war par within the first few months in Iraq, but a war is still going on there of some sorts, for this kind of money being spent daily imo.

jd

[manu1959]

Yurt, i am not sure about it being ''just a police action'' ...it is costing us now about $200,000,000,000 a year....in a relatively tiny country!!! I think it is costing us more than any war in our history and moreso now, when it is not suppose to be a war! so, police action is a tad shy of what I would call it...

I do understand that it is not a traditional war, and that we did win the traditional war par within the first few months in Iraq, but a war is still going on there of some sorts, for this kind of money being spent daily imo.

jd


i relative dollars and lives it has been a cheap war......

[Yurt]

Yurt, i am not sure about it being ''just a police action'' ...it is costing us now about $200,000,000,000 a year....in a relatively tiny country!!! I think it is costing us more than any war in our history and moreso now, when it is not suppose to be a war! so, police action is a tad shy of what I would call it...

I do understand that it is not a traditional war, and that we did win the traditional war par within the first few months in Iraq, but a war is still going on there of some sorts, for this kind of money being spent daily imo.

jd

California's prisons cost approximately 1,400,000,000 to run every year. That is just the prison, not any other police action. That is just one state, not any other.

I also don't think all the $$ is just for police action. Don't be naive Joe, I am sure a sizable portion is going to reconstruction. But you will never hear the media talk about that, because that would be *smacks gum* like, totally, like making Bush look like awesome, ya know. *smacks gum*