My New Ride

[glockmail]

Same color, wheels, everything. Man its a sweet ride.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z256/glockmail/2008_ford_expedition_20123049-396x2.jpg

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/expedition/review.html

[Gaffer]

Here you go.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/search.php?searchid=190730

Nice car. :cheers2:

[manu1959]

Same color, wheels, everything. Man its a sweet ride.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z256/glockmail/2008_ford_expedition_20123049-396x2.jpg

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/expedition/review.html

aren't you worried about your carbon footprint..........

[82Marine89]

The ex-wife drives my '06 Limited. They are sweet vehicles. Hope you enjoy yours.

[Mr. P]

Same color, wheels, everything. Man its a sweet ride.



Where the hell ya been? Building that piece of JUNK? :poke:

[shattered]

Buy a Ford, buy the best...
Drive a mile, walk the rest...

:coffee:

[manu1959]

Buy a Ford, buy the best...
Drive a mile, walk the rest...

:coffee:

ford.......Fixed Or Repaired Daily

any one know fiat or pontiac?

[shattered]

ford.......Fixed Or Repaired Daily

any one know fiat or pontiac?

Failure In Automotive Technology

[manu1959]

Failure In Automotive Technology

Fix It Again Tony

[actsnoblemartin]

yes it is


Same color, wheels, everything. Man its a sweet ride.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z256/glockmail/2008_ford_expedition_20123049-396x2.jpg

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/expedition/review.html

[82Marine89]

ford.......Fixed Or Repaired Daily

any one know fiat or pontiac?

Poor Old Negro Thought It's A Cadillac.

[Mr. P]

I always liked...Ford...Found On Road Dead.

[darin]

Cute sayings aside - Ford makes the best truck in the business, as far as I'm concerned. Their cars are basically crap inside, though, but Ford truck interiors are top-notch. Congrats on the purchase!

[glockmail]

aren't you worried about your carbon footprint..........
I've been averaging about 16.5 mpg combined city/ highway. And my highway leads up a mountain.

But to answer your question: no.


Where the hell ya been? Building that piece of JUNK? :poke:
Paying for it. :laugh2:

Besides, my house is all electric, and the nearest generating station is nuclear, so that makes up for any car-carbon.


ford.......Fixed Or Repaired Daily

any one know fiat or pontiac?


Failure In Automotive Technology


Fix It Again Tony

Further Off Road Destinations

First On Race Day

Favorite of Redhead Dates



Cute sayings aside - Ford makes the best truck in the business, as far as I'm concerned. Their cars are basically crap inside, though, but Ford truck interiors are top-notch. Congrats on the purchase!


6 speed transmission, 5.4L 3V engine, 275 HP, IRS, automatic air suspension, 2WD-AWD-4WD-4WDL, roll stability control, electonic traction control, anti-lock vented disk brakes...

[glockmail]

This weekend driving up to the mountains I decided to try something new. There are several long climbs, and the longest/ steepest is Rte 421 N approaching the Blue Ridge Parkway. Its at least 8% grade for about 5 miles. I normally keep the cruise control on 60 and just let the engine rev, but this time I let off and set it down to 55. Instead of knocking down into 3rd gear or so the transmission set itself on 5th and the engine just chugged along. I got remarkably better gas mileage, 17.3 for the 180 mile round trip, where I had been getting in the 16's.

[Pale Rider]

I always liked...Ford...Found On Road Dead.

Fucked Over Rebuilt Dodge... :D

[dan]

Poor Old Negro Thought It's A Cadillac.

You got one word wrong. At least for the SC version.:laugh2:

[glockmail]

Fucked Over Rebuilt Dodge... :D

Fast Old Red Devil
Future Of Racing Development
For Only Redneck Drivers

:coffee:

Chevy: Cheapest Heap enVisiond Yet

Dodge: Dangerous On Days Gears Engage

[Pale Rider]

Fast Old Red Devil
Future Of Racing Development
For Only Redneck Drivers

:coffee:

Chevy: Cheapest Heap enVisiond Yet

Dodge: Dangerous On Days Gears Engage

Haven't heard this one yet, and wasn't going to say it but...

First On Race Day..... :uhoh:

[darin]

This weekend driving up to the mountains I decided to try something new. There are several long climbs, and the longest/ steepest is Rte 421 N approaching the Blue Ridge Parkway. Its at least 8% grade for about 5 miles. I normally keep the cruise control on 60 and just let the engine rev, but this time I let off and set it down to 55. Instead of knocking down into 3rd gear or so the transmission set itself on 5th and the engine just chugged along. I got remarkably better gas mileage, 17.3 for the 180 mile round trip, where I had been getting in the 16's.

RPMs. RPMs are the best way to get better mileage - that is to say, Lower RPMs help more than light-on-the-gas pedal. :)

[Pale Rider]

This weekend driving up to the mountains I decided to try something new. There are several long climbs, and the longest/ steepest is Rte 421 N approaching the Blue Ridge Parkway. Its at least 8% grade for about 5 miles. I normally keep the cruise control on 60 and just let the engine rev, but this time I let off and set it down to 55. Instead of knocking down into 3rd gear or so the transmission set itself on 5th and the engine just chugged along. I got remarkably better gas mileage, 17.3 for the 180 mile round trip, where I had been getting in the 16's.

It's all about what RPM your engine develops it's greatest amount of torque. Horse power doesn't mean squat. Torque is what makes your vehicle scoot. Torque is the twisting power of your engine. Obviously your engine develops more torque at this lower RPM than it does at the higher. Good you figured that out. :thumb:

You drive that round trip every day? :eek:

[April15]

Gotta Mechanic Comming
Cheap Heap Every Valve Rattles Oh Leaks Exhaust Too

[glockmail]

It's all about what RPM your engine develops it's greatest amount of torque. Horse power doesn't mean squat. Torque is what makes your vehicle scoot. Torque is the twisting power of your engine. Obviously your engine develops more torque at this lower RPM than it does at the higher. Good you figured that out. :thumb:

You drive that round trip every day? :eek: Weekly. The next 2 months is race season and we have five trips that will be longer, up to 7 hours one way.

[darin]

It's all about what RPM your engine develops it's greatest amount of torque. Horse power doesn't mean squat. Torque is what makes your vehicle scoot. Torque is the twisting power of your engine. Obviously your engine develops more torque at this lower RPM than it does at the higher. Good you figured that out. :thumb:

You drive that round trip every day? :eek:

I beg to differ - Horsepower and Torque are linked. Absolutely linked. Horsepower is what will get the car/truck moving and accelerating. Torque is fine, but without proper gearing, it's meaningless. That is to say, Gearing can be the great torque equalizer. Thanks to gearing, an engine can be delivering it's max torque to the wheels, but NOT max torque at the flywheel.
Thus, it's better to make torque at a higher RPM, so one can take advantage of "gearing" Torque makes a car FEEL fast. Horsepower makes a car fast.

:D

Horsepower and Torque have a close relationship, to say either doesn't mean squat is to deny the other.

[glockmail]

Another thread derailed by the all knowing dmp. :cool:

[darin]

Right. Disagreeing with what somebody posted, and replying in context = derailing. :-/

[glockmail]

Pale's post had something to do with the OP. Yours did not. :lame2:

[darin]

Pale's post had something to do with the OP. Yours did not. :lame2:

look - if you want to be a dick, fine. Be a dick. However, don't be a dick for the sake of being a dick - at least find proper context.

Here's the OP:


Same color, wheels, everything. Man its a sweet ride.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z256/glockmail/2008_ford_expedition_20123049-396x2.jpg

http://www.edmunds.com/ford/expedition/review.html


Pale's post had nothing to do with the OP, it had something to do with a reply you made 'after' the OP. MY reply had to do with Pale's reply. If you think hat's 'derailing' then you are likely a retard, and there is no hope for you. May God have mercy on your soul.

[glockmail]

look - if you want to be a dick, fine. Be a dick. However, don't be a dick for the sake of being a dick - at least find proper context.

Here's the OP:




Pale's post had nothing to do with the OP, it had something to do with a reply you made 'after' the OP. MY reply had to do with Pale's reply. If you think hat's 'derailing' then you are likely a retard, and there is no hope for you. May God have mercy on your soul.

Wow. You’ve gone beyond your normal, holier than thou, know-it-all, condescending self today. Congratulations on your new level of arrogance.

Pale’s post was discussing the characteristics of the engine in the OP vehicle. Yours was the usual attempt to show us once again your vast pool of knowledge about everything automotive.

When was the last time you torque’d on a wrench, dmp?

[darin]

Wow. You’ve gone beyond your normal, holier than thou, know-it-all, condescending self today. Congratulations on your new level of arrogance.

Pale’s post was discussing the characteristics of the engine in the OP vehicle. Yours was the usual attempt to show us once again your vast pool of knowledge about everything automotive.

When was the last time you torque’d on a wrench, dmp?

So - lemme get this straight....Pale was talking about the ENGINE of the Truck you posted. Nice. Because he said something you may agree with he's on-topic, but my further discussion of what he wrote is somehow not? Are you being serious now? I can't tell. If you are serious, see my comments above. If you're not...then...oh. haha ;) Funny.

[glockmail]

I think most would agree that neg repping someone for pointing out a fact is "dick" behavior. :poke:

[glockmail]

So - lemme get this straight....Pale was talking about the ENGINE of the Truck you posted. Nice. Because he said something you may agree with he's on-topic, but my further discussion of what he wrote is somehow not? Are you being serious now? I can't tell. If you are serious, see my comments above. If you're not...then...oh. haha ;) Funny.

You set up a straw man on Pale's argument on torque. It has nothing to do with the thread and adds no value to the conversation. No one is impressed by your "car and driver" knowledge of auto mechanics.


Maybe if you got underneath a car once in a while instead of over a check book you wouldn't be such a dick.

[darin]

I think most would agree that neg repping someone for pointing out a fact is "dick" behavior. :poke:

You poor POOR Little guy. You're all butt-hurt because you're a dickhead and get neg-repped for it. :( :huddle: :huddle:


You set up a straw man on Pale's argument on torque. It has nothing to do with the thread and adds no value to the conversation. No one is impressed by your "car and driver" knowledge of auto mechanics.


Maybe if you got underneath a car once in a while instead of over a check book you wouldn't be such a dick.

Set up a straw man. Hrm...By explaining why Horsepower IS important? Is that what you think? Really? My reply to Pale does a LOT to help folk understand all-encompassing broad-statements like "Torque means everything, HP means nothing!" are mis-guided at best. My reply to Pale COULD have helped you learn something if you weren't so offended to having been taught something by somebody who doesn't NEED to fix his car. :)

You are awarded NO cool-points by using the name I'm calling you (Dickhead) against ME.

[glockmail]

You poor POOR Little guy. You're all butt-hurt because you're a dickhead nd get neg-repped for it. :( :huddle: :huddle: Nothing poor or little about me bud. You're the one who's pissed and PM'ing me complaining about getting neg-repped back.

[glockmail]

From dmp's 2nd neg rep to me: "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"

A Dick is someone who uses their ad-min status to allow multiple neg reps on a poster.

[darin]

Quoting comments said via the Rep system is the same as quoting, without permission, somebody's Private Message. Both are ban-worthy offenses.

[mrg666]

Quoting comments said via the Rep system is the same as quoting, without permission, somebody's Private Message. Both are ban-worthy offenses.

thats how to win an argument

[darin]

No - it's "How to get banned." It's "I can't explain why I'm a dick to you in this thread, so I'll air private conversations in an attempt to make you look bad."

He knows the rules - he went there. (shrug).

[Pale Rider]

I beg to differ - Horsepower and Torque are linked. Absolutely linked. Horsepower is what will get the car/truck moving and accelerating. Torque is fine, but without proper gearing, it's meaningless. That is to say, Gearing can be the great torque equalizer. Thanks to gearing, an engine can be delivering it's max torque to the wheels, but NOT max torque at the flywheel.
Thus, it's better to make torque at a higher RPM, so one can take advantage of "gearing" Torque makes a car FEEL fast. Horsepower makes a car fast.

:D

Horsepower and Torque have a close relationship, to say either doesn't mean squat is to deny the other.

The only thing horse power and torque have in common is they're both measured values of an engine. Other than that, they have absolutely nothing in common. Gearing is not of an engine, so to bring that up just confuses the issue. Lets try this...

horse·pow·er /ˈhɔrsˌpaʊər/ Pronunciation Key
–noun
1. a foot-pound-second unit of power, equivalent to 550 foot-pounds per second, or 745.7 watts.
2. Informal. the capacity to achieve or produce; strength or talent: The university's history faculty is noted for its intellectual horsepower.

torque /tɔrk/ Pronunciation Key
–noun
1. Mechanics. something that produces or tends to produce torsion or rotation; the moment of a force or system of forces tending to cause rotation.
2. Machinery. the measured ability of a rotating element, as of a gear or shaft, to overcome turning resistance.
3. Optics. the rotational effect on plane-polarized light passing through certain liquids or crystals.
4. Also, torc. a collar, necklace, or similar ornament consisting of a twisted narrow band, usually of precious metal, worn esp. by the ancient Gauls and Britons.
–verb (used with object) 5. Machinery. to apply torque to (a nut, bolt, etc.).
6. to cause to rotate or twist.
–verb (used without object) 7. to rotate or twist.

As you can see, horsepower is a measure of the amount of energy it takes to move an object as set distance in a certain amount of time. Torque on the other hand is power to turn/twist something. One is completely different from the other, and I was entirely correct with my initial description. I "AM" a mechanic, and did attend one of the best schools for such in the "world."

Now if you'd like to talk about gearing, that pertains to a cars transmission, not the engine, and is a totally different topic.

[darin]

As you can see, horsepower is a measure of the amount of energy it takes to move an object as set distance in a certain amount of time. Torque on the other hand is power to turn/twist something. One is completely different from the other, and I was entirely correct with my initial description. I "AM" a mechanic, and did attend one of the best schools for such in the "world."



But - they are Linked. You defined each, but I still showed how they are linked and why.




Now if you'd like to talk about gearing, that pertains to a cars transmission, not the engine, and is a totally different topic.

Gearing is transmission and rear-end, and tire/wheel diameter size. Probably other things factor in there as well. What an engine produces is actually irrelevant - it's what gets to the ground that matters. That is to say, it's useless for an engine to make, say, 500hp, if only 1/3 of that gets to the pavement.

[edit] Very good read:



http://dmiessler.com/study/horsepower/

torque (is what matters), but torque at the wheels, not at the engine. And since we're talking about torque at the wheels and not at the engine, the actual complete answer is horsepower because horsepower encompasses not only the engines torque but the total torque that gets put to the ground to accelerate the vehicle.

[Pale Rider]

But - they are Linked. You defined each, but I still showed how they are linked and why.
The only link would be that they are both measurements of an engines power. They are, however, both quite independent measurements of completely different values.


Gearing is transmission and rear-end, and tire/wheel diameter size. Probably other things factor in there as well. What an engine produces is actually irrelevant - it's what gets to the ground that matters. That is to say, it's useless for an engine to make, say, 500hp, if only 1/3 of that gets to the pavement.
Got that right. :thumb:

:edit: The below is kind of a distorted phrase, because it only stands to reason, "you won't have torque at the wheels if you don't FIRST have torque at the engine."


http://dmiessler.com/study/horsepower/

torque (is what matters), but torque at the wheels, not at the engine. And since we're talking about torque at the wheels and not at the engine, the actual complete answer is horsepower because horsepower encompasses not only the engines torque but the total torque that gets put to the ground to accelerate the vehicle.

[jimnyc]

I want it to be clear to everyone what transpired in this thread. Darin and Glock apparently are having a disagreement, whether that be about the thread topic or the thread itself. Glock was given a temporary ban for quoting the exact message he was given via the reputation system, which is against the rules of the board. Darin had originally deleted the post which had the infraction, but has now reinstated the post and edited out the comments. I'm sure anyone reading might have been confused over what transpired, but to remain consistent with the rules we cannot allow what is otherwise private communication to be displayed on the board.

Darin had originally given him a 5 day ban as well. Also to remain consistent, I have asked him to reduce this to 48hrs.

I like Glock a lot. I hate to see him banned, but we have to remain consistent and impartial when enforcing the rules.

Carry on now, just thought our members deserved an explanation. I'm also locking this thread to put it behind us.

[darin]

The only link would be that they are both measurements of an engines power. They are, however, both quite independent measurements of completely different values.


Well, not exactly. Horsepower is a measurement/conclusion drawn from torque and time and junk - nobody measures 'horsepower' directly.

But - which was my original point - Horsepower is vital because it ads the element of 'what was done' to the measure of how hard it was done. Make any sense? I'm not even sure if it does. lol! :D

[jimnyc]

Unlocking so that Darin and Pale have an opportunity to continue their discussion. Should this thread get further derailed from the topic and become a discussion about board decisions, it will be locked.

Thanks!

[Pale Rider]

Well, not exactly. Horsepower is a measurement/conclusion drawn from torque and time and junk - nobody measures 'horsepower' directly.

But - which was my original point - Horsepower is vital because it ads the element of 'what was done' to the measure of how hard it was done. Make any sense? I'm not even sure if it does. lol! :D

Take for instance a Top Fuel Funny Car. Those engines make so much "horse power," that the only way to measure it is to calculate it, because there's no dyno in existence that can hold that kind of horse power. The formula includes the weight of the car, the distance it travels and the amount of time it takes to travel that distance. It works out to be something like 8,500 horse power. That's one way to measure horse power. There are actually many more. So, the debate as to what horse power actually is goes on. Torque on the other hand can verifiably be measured. It's the twisting power of on engine. When I built a hot rod Harley engine, I didn't build it to make big horse power numbers. I built it to make big torque numbers, because an engine that makes more torque than horse power will out run the other, hands down, every time.

[Jon]

Horsepower is derived from torque.

HP = Torque * RPM/5,252

That is why dyno graphs cross at 5252.


;)

[Pale Rider]

Horsepower is derived from torque.

HP = Torque * RPM/5,252

That is why dyno graphs cross at 5252.


;)

I was trained on how to operate a dyno at the world acclaimed Motorcycle Mechanics Institute, then by a factory representative from Dynojet sponsored by factory Harley Davidson, then by an industry wizard by the name of Matt Gross.

You could say horse power is derived from torque. I guess in a way it is. But, the horse power, torque curves on a dyno run graph do not cross at 5252 rpm. As a matter of fact some never cross at all. Actually, every single dyno run is unique, even of like vehicles and engines. I saved quite a few dyno run graphs from when I worked at Reno Harley Davidson of engines I built to show to customers what different cam, piston, displacement combinations would put out. I can dig them out and scan them and post them if you'd like to show you what a real world dyno run graph looks like, done by someone who did it for a living.

[darin]

Take for instance a Top Fuel Funny Car. Those engines make so much "horse power," that the only way to measure it is to calculate it, because there's no dyno in existence that can hold that kind of horse power.

Again - Horsepower isn't measured. It's 'derived'


because an engine that makes more torque than horse power will out run the other, hands down, every time.

Depends on the application. It's not a universal truth - For instance, my car puts down about the same torque numbers as a honda s2000, but with the honda making more HP, would smoke my car in a straight-line race. (and likely on most road-courses, too, driver depending). Both have about the same weight and similar gearing.



I guess in a way it is. But, the horse power, torque curves on a dyno run graph do not cross at 5252 rpm. As a matter of fact some never cross at all. Actually, every single dyno run is unique, even of like vehicles and engines.

I'll let Jon handle this one. ;) But I've never seen a dyno that didn't cross at that point - except when the scale was different on each side.

[Pale Rider]

Again - Horsepower isn't measured. It's 'derived'
Well... it's not 'derived' either. It's 'calculated.' :)


Depends on the application. It's not a universal truth - For instance, my car puts down about the same torque numbers as a honda s2000, but with the honda making more HP, would smoke my car in a straight-line race. (and likely on most road-courses, too, driver depending). Both have about the same weight and similar gearing.
It's a universal truth pertaining to Harley Davidsons, to which I was referring, sorry. Pertaining to your car, you could be right. There is a huge difference between a rotary engine and a 45 degree V-Twin, and you probably know more about the rotary than I do. I would assume you've researched it. All I know about rotaries is they have a triangle shaped piston that travels in a eccentric 8 pattern, two sparks, and is very free revving.


I'll let Jon handle this one. ;) But I've never seen a dyno that didn't cross at that point - except when the scale was different on each side.
I'm speaking from real world, hands on experience. I've seen it. ON A HARLEY DAVIDSON. I guess I should clarify that. I'll have to dig through all my old dyno run graph print outs and see it I can find one....

[Jon]

Horsepower is derived from torque. I'm not surprised that someone being trained to operate a dyno was not trained in the physics behind how that dyno works. You simply didn't need to know.

There is a nice explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque

Specifically, the sections on "Conversion to other units" and "Derivation" will be helpful to you.

Oh, and the only way a dyno graph won't have the horsepower and torque cross at 5252 rpm is if the X/Y scales for horsepower and torque are different. Well, or if the engine never reached 5252 rpm. ;) HP = Torque X RPM/5252. The division by 5252 in the formula guarantees that they will cross at 5252 on the graph. When rpm = 5252, it cancels out with the 5252 in the denominator leaving HP=Torque.

Oh, and a bit about how dynamometers work here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamometer

"A dynamometer, "dyno","dyn'r" or "pump" for short, is a machine used to measure torque and rotational speed (rpm) from which power produced ... can be calculated."

If you read the rest of that, you'll see a good explanation about why the horsepower and torque always cross at 5252 rpm, and another verification of the fact that horsepower is derived from torque.


Convinced?



I was trained on how to operate a dyno at the world acclaimed Motorcycle Mechanics Institute, then by a factory representative from Dynojet sponsored by factory Harley Davidson, then by an industry wizard by the name of Matt Gross.

You could say horse power is derived from torque. I guess in a way it is. But, the horse power, torque curves on a dyno run graph do not cross at 5252 rpm. As a matter of fact some never cross at all. Actually, every single dyno run is unique, even of like vehicles and engines. I saved quite a few dyno run graphs from when I worked at Reno Harley Davidson of engines I built to show to customers what different cam, piston, displacement combinations would put out. I can dig them out and scan them and post them if you'd like to show you what a real world dyno run graph looks like, done by someone who did it for a living.

Derive and calculate are synonyms in this context. ;)


Well... it's not 'derived' either. It's 'calculated.' :)


It's a universal truth pertaining to Harley Davidsons, to which I was referring, sorry. Pertaining to your car, you could be right. There is a huge difference between a rotary engine and a 45 degree V-Twin, and you probably know more about the rotary than I do. I would assume you've researched it. All I know about rotaries is they have a triangle shaped piston that travels in a eccentric 8 pattern, two sparks, and is very free revving.


I'm speaking from real world, hands on experience. I've seen it. ON A HARLEY DAVIDSON. I guess I should clarify that. I'll have to dig through all my old dyno run graph print outs and see it I can find one....

[Jon]

The only thing horse power and torque have in common is they're both measured values of an engine. Other than that, they have absolutely nothing in common. Gearing is not of an engine, so to bring that up just confuses the issue. Lets try this...

horse·pow·er /ˈhɔrsˌpaʊər/ Pronunciation Key
–noun
1. a foot-pound-second unit of power, equivalent to 550 foot-pounds per second, or 745.7 watts.
2. Informal. the capacity to achieve or produce; strength or talent: The university's history faculty is noted for its intellectual horsepower.

...

As you can see, horsepower is a measure of the amount of energy it takes to move an object as set distance in a certain amount of time. Torque on the other hand is power to turn/twist something. One is completely different from the other, and I was entirely correct with my initial description. I "AM" a mechanic, and did attend one of the best schools for such in the "world."



Had I read from the beginning I could've helped you out. See the bolded above. A "foot-pound" is a unit of measurement for torque.

Your definition actually proves that horsepower is derived from torque as well.

[Pale Rider]

Had I read from the beginning I could've helped you out. See the bolded above. A "foot-pound" is a unit of measurement for torque.

Your definition actually proves that horsepower is derived from torque as well.

Tell me something I don't know... you arrogant cock sucking prick.

[glockmail]

Tell me something I don't know... you arrogant cock sucking prick.

I got a better line for both of them: "You're a liar and an arrogant prick. are you simply upset because you need to learn things about power and torque and how things work? Don't take it out on me."

:coffee:

[glockmail]

D'ya suppose dmp and Jon do the nasty in the back seat of his Mazda? :lol: