Sometimes Something Comes You Didn't Know You Needed

[Kathianne]

For awhile now, like 6/7 years, politics has become more heated with people I like and have respected for a long time. In many ways it seemed things were improving for a bit, then spiraled down with Biden then coming elections.

Last few weeks, especially since Israel attack, things seemed to be escalating and honestly don't know why.

Just read this, it resonated with me:

https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-politics-of-disdain

Not every word, though 'hyperpolitics or hyperpolitical' certainly hits a mark.

I've always been interested in politics, was raised in politically aware home. One of my majors was political science, another was sociology-before returning later for history. They are all related, but separate and unequal. ;) I've worked on campaigns and my politics certainly evolved. What I do understand to some degree is that I'm not casual regarding understanding or expectations of politics and politicians. While I have interest in the politics of issues in the moment, I am interested and aware of various parts in the evolution of ideas.

Does that make me an 'elite' as some put it, opposing that term against 'populist'? Well I'm not a populist, nor have a desire to be so. At the same time, elitist doesn't fit me in the sense of my interests in politics. As Gunny has said over the years, I'm a classical liberal for the most part, I want a better country, with as little upheaval for the average person as possible. Sudden and/or violent solutions to problems are rarely the best for people in the long run, imo. Sometimes though, events overtake commonsense. I do not feel 'disdain' for those who disagree, but I do find it difficult/sometimes impossible to be silent when I see danger to the whole from the individual. Which actually is weird as most of my life I've been concerned about the individual being lost to the whole.

Anyhow, I strongly recommend the article I linked to.

[Kathianne]

Now this is just embarrassing. I went to close some windows and found the post that led me to the above article. I had jumped to the article, not finishing reading the post. The end:


[This has roots going back much farther than the authors of this essay postulate. We stopped providing classical education that served to teach people how to think decades ago, relying on the philosophy and moral foundations of Western civilization. We cut that off, left students to consider all history poisoned, and then started teaching them WHAT to think, usually based on post-modernist, nihilist, and/or Maoist/Marxist ideologies. We have created generations of people who can’t debate or even deal with dissenting thought, so rather than engage in real argument, they treat all contradictory thinking as heresy and punish it accordingly. This isn’t disdain — it’s intellectual and ideological panic. — Ed]

I said, 'embarrassing' because my education-even most of my 'education courses' were Western Civ based. The political science/sociology were in the 70s at a very good university. My history degree was US/European concentrated. Most of my early education was classical, in Jesuit/Franciscan schools.

So if that education is a bit elitist, well so be it. Again, the individual isn't necessarily the same as the whole. Still have the experience of being a generation removed of immigrant grandparents that left the old country for food/survival-not better opportunities. Daughter of depression children and D-Day veteran.

[SassyLady]

The author sounds like a populist.

[Kathianne]

The author sounds like a populist.
All the more reason to read it. I read nearly anything that appears well written, even some that don't.

[Gunny]

All the more reason to read it. I read nearly anything that appears well written, even some that don't.Worthy topic. Still digesting it. And babysitting. Again. As usual:smoke:

[Kathianne]

I think she is a populist. An articulate one that seems able to at least see more than one side. I appreciate that. No one side owns absolute truth or answers.

[SassyLady]

All the more reason to read it. I read nearly anything that appears well written, even some that don't.
I did read it Kath.

I agree there is a division in society ... it's a worlwide thing that the plandemic escalated.

Here in America it started with Trump and his speech about running for president. Said he was going after the Deep State and was going to drain the swamp. From that day forward the DS and Swamp made it their priority to get rid of him.

Even to the point of releasing a bio weapon, covid, so they could set up a voter cheating system for the 2020 election.

Everyone knows the J6 was not an armed insurrection but was developed and instigated by the DS in an effort to suppress the MAGA movement.

DS suppressed laptop info to make sure Biden was elected.

I could go on ... but anyone who thinks Biden won with 80 million votes (more than any other person in history) while not campaigning is not using common sense.

So I'm listing some division items between family and friends I've experienced

TDS
Election results ... both 2020 and 2022
Mask and vax mandates
Disinformation censorship on all subjects
MSM lies
Allowing some protests and ruining the lives of other protestors (inequal justice)
Being ridiculed and called conspiracist because one goes against the flow or doesn't use "accepted" sources

I'm sure there are some I can't recall right now.

For me ... I don't mind debate as long as it remains civil. But I have friends and family that get all emotional and shut down rather than continuing to engage.

Oh, and I do really dislike the snipes some people seem to be driven to.

[Kathianne]

I did read it Kath.

I agree there is a division in society ... it's a worlwide thing that the plandemic escalated.

Here in America it started with Trump and his speech about running for president. Said he was going after the Deep State and was going to drain the swamp. From that day forward the DS and Swamp made it their priority to get rid of him.

Even to the point of releasing a bio weapon, covid, so they could set up a voter cheating system for the 2020 election.

Everyone knows the J6 was not an armed insurrection but was developed and instigated by the DS in an effort to suppress the MAGA movement.

DS suppressed laptop info to make sure Biden was elected.

I could go on ... but anyone who thinks Biden won with 80 million votes (more than any other person in history) while not campaigning is not using common sense.

So I'm listing some division items between family and friends I've experienced

TDS
Election results ... both 2020 and 2022
Mask and vax mandates
Disinformation censorship on all subjects
MSM lies
Allowing some protests and ruining the lives of other protestors (inequal justice)
Being ridiculed and called conspiracist because one goes against the flow or doesn't use "accepted" sources

I'm sure there are some I can't recall right now.

For me ... I don't mind debate as long as it remains civil. But I have friends and family that get all emotional and shut down rather than continuing to engage.

Oh, and I do really dislike the snipes some people seem to be driven to.

Me too. We do dislike those things that remind us of us. ;)

I've read, heard your take on the election of 2020. Nearly all of what you are bemoaning, could have been mitigated or prevented by taking actions that were not taken. The Dems were on top of it, the GOP wasn't. Some may well have been because much of the GOP/RNC even the everyday Republican voter were never fully for Trump. Then again, knowing that the Trump campaign should have taken all that into account. They didn't. Sent weird people out to make lots of noise, getting zip done. Meanwhile the Dems were voting. The made accusations about voting machines that not only were not proven, but left them open to fines for libel. Not a good look for lawyers.

We agree about what 1/6 ended up being, in the sense that I am outraged at people that have yet to have their day in court while being incarcerated. Same with the sentences being beyond draconian. I've done what I can in communicating with representatives here, they really are non-responsive. The one I did hear from was Sinema, though didn't see any actions that add up to squat.

While Trump's economy beat what's been our new normal, I saw zip to do with eliminating 'deep state' or corruption anywhere. Saw no pressure by admin on DOJ to weed such out.

[Gunny]

I think she is a populist. An articulate one that seems able to at least see more than one side. I appreciate that. No one side owns absolute truth or answers.
Ha. Some of your commentary is worthy of discussion without the article. Then there's the article.

.

[revelarts]

Kath, i don't think you're who the writer is refereeing to when it comes to the "elite".
seems to me you are FAR more a classical liberal than they are. However, like a lot of people left and right, it seems you don't realize how far you may have moved from the classical liberal position based on the 'elites' fear mongering.
You say you don't believe in radial changes however at every "crisis" of the pass 20+ years the 'elite' have pushed most classical liberals and middle of the roaders to ride the wave into radial new positions. And managed to get them to called it "pragmatic" or "necessary".
While others who have not moved at all see it what for what it is, very radical moves away from the classical liberal positions.
So that now what was considered classical liberal or conservative in 1960s, 70s, 80s is seen as "populist", "radical", impractical, naive or extreme.
Sometimes it seems the impression that comes from you ....and gunny... is that ANY real hard move toward the old classical liberalism is WAY TO Extreme to even be considered.
But when the gov't says mandates for vxs or no job gunny says we need to be 'team players" or suffer the consequences. and you seem mildly concerned but willing to go along because we should trust the medical experts.
While a classical liberal POV would see it, govt autonomously instigating wars, spying on citizens etc as a radical govt overreach.

While you seem ok or at best mildly concerned with it, but more upset about populist who want to move away from those things as quickly as we came to them.
And Highly concerned about the dangers of the bad example that Trump is for the country.

Maybe i've misread you and gunny but you both seem far more concerned about a polite domestic status quo and having a very aggressive (as apposed to defensive & peaceful) foreign military posture unbound by any rules, classical liberal or otherwise.

[Kathianne]

Kath, i don't think you're who the writer is refereeing to when it comes to the "elite".
seems to me you are FAR more a classical liberal than they are. However, like a lot of people left and right, it seems you don't realize how far you may have moved from that position based on the elites' fear mongering.
you say you don't beleive in radial changes however at every "crisis" that the eleite have promoted most classical liberals and middle of the roaders have road the wave to radial new positions and called it "pragmatic" or "necessary".
While others who have not moved at all see it what what it is very radical moves Away from the classical liberal positions.

So that now what was considered classical liberal or conservative in 1960, 70, 80 is seen as "populist", "radical", impractical, naive or extreme.
sometimes it seems the impression that comes from you ....and gunny... is that ANY real hard move toward the old classical liberalism is WAY TO Extreme to be considered.
But when the gov't says mandates for vxs or no job gunny ay be a team player and you seem mildly concerned but willing to go along.
While a classical liberal POV would see it, govt autonomously instigating wars, spying on citizens etc as a radical govt overreach.

While you seem ok or at best mildly concerned with it, but more upset about populist who want to move away from those things. as quickly as we came to them.
and the dangers of bad moral example of Trump.

Maybe i've misread you and gunny but you both seem far more concerned about a polite domestic status quo and having a very aggressive (as apposed to defensive) foreign military posture unbound by any rules, classical liberal or otherwise.

I'm not ok with someone like Trump, he and those on the 'trump train' changed my perspective greatly, I admit that. The reaction by Dems after the election again caused another a huge change in my perspective. The US really was-as I'd predicted in 2015, more divided than ever; the second part of my thinking pre 2016 of the Republican Party split took just a bit longer-but happened. In 2020, had to vote Trump, due to both his dealing with Covid; DOJ; Impeachments; and biggest reason for me-Nancy Pelosi ripping up SOTU Address.

All of this happened too quickly to be good for the country, but sometimes one just has to deal with the cards dealt. The US did that. The left has become more extreme because of Trump and now the extreme right feels justified going the other way. Some of us say, 'pox on both houses.' Not talking parties here, talking about people just behaving badly and stupidly.

Weak leaders lead to problems on foreign fronts. I don't like war, but certainly would rather have them fought anywhere but here. Ignoring problems will not lead to peace.

[revelarts]

I'm not ok with someone like Trump, he and those on the 'trump train' changed my perspective greatly, I admit that. The reaction by Dems after the election again caused another a huge change in my perspective. The US really was-as I'd predicted in 2015, more divided than ever; the second part of my thinking pre 2016 of the Republican Party split took just a bit longer-but happened. In 2020, had to vote Trump, due to both his dealing with Covid; DOJ; Impeachments; and biggest reason for me-Nancy Pelosi ripping up SOTU Address.

All of this happened too quickly to be good for the country, but sometimes one just has to deal with the cards dealt. The US did that. The left has become more extreme because of Trump and now the extreme right feels justified going the other way. Some of us say, 'pox on both houses.' Not talking parties here, talking about people just behaving badly and stupidly.

Weak leaders lead to problems on foreign fronts. I don't like war, but certainly would rather have them fought anywhere but here. Ignoring problems will not lead to peace.

What policies of Trump are More extreme now than before?
Seems to me it's near the same as the 1980s?

If you're talking about the emotional mood of the country or people's level of tolerance for other people's POVs.
Well OK, maybe, yes, a bit, but personally I think Obama and Trump simply removed some folks veil of civility.
And for some, they just allowed them to vent some of their real and imagined frustrations.

Can we learn to be truly civil and tolerant of other views.
Maybe some folks have begun to relearn it and some folk have seen parts of themselves they didn't like.

Someone like RFK jr as a leader could bring some of that mindset back but to me that's NOT our main issue. Nice feelings are wonderful but if the ship is half sunk it's not going to save it.
A nasty or nice capt that can get the ship afloat with any group of SOBs would be great. By following the ships protocols.

As far as war is concerned.
How many wars -- over there-- in the pass 20+ years do you think were 100% necessary?
I'd say none.

[Kathianne]

What policies of Trump are More extreme now than before?
Seems to me it's near the same as the 1980s?

If you're talking about the emotional mood of the country or people's level of tolerance for other people's POVs.
Well OK, maybe, yes, a bit, but personally I think Obama and Trump simply removed some folks veil of civility.
And for some, they just allowed them to vent some of their real and imagined frustrations.

Can we learn to be truly civil and tolerant of other views.
Maybe some folks have begun to relearn it and some folk have seen parts of themselves they didn't like.

Someone like RFK jr as a leader could bring some of that mindset back but to me that's NOT our main issue. Nice feelings are wonderful but if the ship is half sunk it's not going to save it.
A nasty or nice capt that can get the ship afloat with any group of SOBs would be great. By following the ships protocols.

As far is war is concerned.
How many wars in the pass 20+ years do you think were 100% necessary?
I'd say none.

When have you heard Trump talking about future policies? I've heard a lot of 'return' but mostly direct or indirect talk of revenge. No thanks, got more than enough hate going here.

War is diplomacy that failed, never 100% inevitable, but once there-it's got to be won.

[Kathianne]

What policies of Trump are More extreme now than before?
Seems to me it's near the same as the 1980s?

If you're talking about the emotional mood of the country or people's level of tolerance for other people's POVs.
Well OK, maybe, yes, a bit, but personally I think Obama and Trump simply removed some folks veil of civility.
And for some, they just allowed them to vent some of their real and imagined frustrations.

Can we learn to be truly civil and tolerant of other views.
Maybe some folks have begun to relearn it and some folk have seen parts of themselves they didn't like.

Someone like RFK jr as a leader could bring some of that mindset back but to me that's NOT our main issue. Nice feelings are wonderful but if the ship is half sunk it's not going to save it.
A nasty or nice capt that can get the ship afloat with any group of SOBs would be great. By following the ships protocols.

As far as war is concerned.
How many wars -- over there-- in the pass 20+ years do you think were 100% necessary?
I'd say none.

I do think though that there must always be voices like yours and some like mine. I wish there were more like you in positions of power, so peace would be considered. What I don't like is when a voice like yours comes into play after the choice is obvious-like Hamas needs to be answered.

[Gunny]

I do think though that there must always be voices like yours and some like mine. I wish there were more like you in positions of power, so peace would be considered. What I don't like is when a voice like yours comes into play after the choice is obvious-like Hamas needs to be answered.Well said.

[revelarts]

I do think though that there must always be voices like yours and some like mine. I wish there were more like you in positions of power, so peace would be considered. What I don't like is when a voice like yours comes into play after the choice is obvious-like Hamas needs to be answered.
I appreciate that,
what i don't like is 2 things,
When people jump to violence after the 1st reports without getting all the facts,
& when it's not remembered that the obvious end game is always getting to peace.
That some kind of peace is ALWAYS the ultimate goal, rather than always thinking that war is inevitable.
War may in fact be necessary at times but it should always be considered a LAST resort and narrowly targeted.
Rather than a knee jerk reaction or "final solution".

“It is only when mosquito land on your balls that you realize there is a way to solve problems without using violence.”
-Konfuciuz

[SassyLady]

I appreciate that,
what i don't like is 2 things,
When people jump to violence after the 1st reports without getting all the facts,
& when it's not remembered that the obvious end game is always getting to peace.
That some kind of peace is ALWAYS the ultimate goal, rather than always thinking that war is inevitable.
War may in fact be necessary at times but it should always be considered a LAST resort and narrowly targeted.
Rather than a knee jerk reaction or "final solution".

“It is only when mosquito land on your balls that you realize there is a way to solve problems without using violence.”
-Konfuciuz

OMG Rev!

Read the quote and spewed water everywhere!

[Kathianne]

I appreciate that,
what i don't like is 2 things,
When people jump to violence after the 1st reports without getting all the facts,
& when it's not remembered that the obvious end game is always getting to peace.
That some kind of peace is ALWAYS the ultimate goal, rather than always thinking that war is inevitable.
War may in fact be necessary at times but it should always be considered a LAST resort and narrowly targeted.
Rather than a knee jerk reaction or "final solution".

“It is only when mosquito land on your balls that you realize there is a way to solve problems without using violence.”
-Konfuciuz
I like your quote too, but still feel the way I do. There will be no peace with Hamas, until effectively destroyed.