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Guernicaa
10-13-2007, 10:46 PM
Legal or Not, Abortion Rates Compare

By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL
ROME, Oct. 11 — A comprehensive global study of abortion has concluded that abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.

Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely. Globally, abortion accounts for 13 percent of women’s deaths during pregnancy and childbirth, and there are 31 abortions for every 100 live births, the study said.

The results of the study, a collaboration between scientists from the World Health Organization in Geneva and the Guttmacher Institute in New York, a reproductive rights group, are being published Friday in the journal Lancet.

“We now have a global picture of induced abortion in the world, covering both countries where it is legal and countries where laws are very restrictive,” Dr. Paul Van Look, director of the W.H.O. Department of Reproductive Health and Research, said in a telephone interview. “What we see is that the law does not influence a woman’s decision to have an abortion. If there’s an unplanned pregnancy, it does not matter if the law is restrictive or liberal.”

But the legal status of abortion did greatly affect the dangers involved, the researchers said. “Generally, where abortion is legal it will be provided in a safe manner,” Dr. Van Look said. “And the opposite is also true: where it is illegal, it is likely to be unsafe, performed under unsafe conditions by poorly trained providers.”

The data also suggested that the best way to reduce abortion rates was not to make abortion illegal but to make contraception more widely available, said Sharon Camp, chief executive of the Guttmacher Institute.

In Eastern Europe, where contraceptive choices have broadened since the fall of Communism, the study found that abortion rates have decreased by 50 percent, although they are still relatively high compared with those in Western Europe. “In the past we didn’t have this kind of data to draw on,” Ms. Camp said. “Contraception is often the missing element” where abortion rates are high, she said.

Anti-abortion groups criticized the research, saying that the scientists had jumped to conclusions from imperfect tallies, often estimates of abortion rates in countries where the procedure was illegal. “These numbers are not definitive and very susceptible to interpretation according to the agenda of the people who are organizing the data,” said Randall K. O’Bannon, director of education and research at the National Right to Life Educational Trust Fund in Washington.

He said that the major reason women die in the developing world is that hospitals and health systems lack good doctors and medicines. “They have equated the word ‘safe’ with ‘legal’ and ‘unsafe’ with ‘illegal,’ which gives you the illusion that to deal with serious medical system problems you just make abortion legal,” he said.

The study indicated that about 20 million abortions that would be considered unsafe are performed each year and that 67,000 women die as a result of complications from those abortions, most in countries where abortion is illegal.

The researchers used national data for 2003 from countries where abortion was legal and therefore tallied. W.H.O. scientists estimated abortion rates from countries where it was outlawed, using data on hospital admissions for abortion complications, interviews with local family planning experts and surveys of women in those countries.

The wealth of information that comes out of the study provides some striking lessons, the researchers said. In Uganda, where abortion is illegal and sex education programs focus only on abstinence, the estimated abortion rate was 54 per 1,000 women in 2003, more than twice the rate in the United States, 21 per 1,000 in that year. The lowest rate, 12 per 1,000, was in Western Europe, with legal abortion and widely available contraception.

The Bush administration’s multibillion-dollar campaign against H.I.V./AIDS in Africa has directed money to programs that promote abstinence before marriage, and to condoms only as a last resort. It has prohibited the use of American money to support overseas family planning groups that provide abortions or promote abortion as a method of family planning.

Worldwide, the annual number of abortions appeared to have declined between 1995, the last year such a broad study was conducted, and 2003, from an estimated 46 million to 42 million, the study concluded. The 1995 study, by the Guttmacher Institute, had far less data on countries where abortion was illegal.

Some countries, like South Africa, have undergone substantial transitions in abortion laws in that time. The procedure was made legal in South Africa in 1996, leading to a 90 percent decrease in mortality among women who had abortions, some studies have found.

Abortion is illegal in most of Africa, though. It is the second-leading cause of death among women admitted to hospitals in Ethiopia, its Health Ministry has said. It is the cause of 13 percent of maternal deaths at hospitals in Nigeria, recent studies have found.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?ex=1349841600&en=37c9f942c1d9d2d7&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

diuretic
10-13-2007, 11:36 PM
Interesting research, it does affirm what we know but it's good to see a well-researched basis for that common knowledge.

bullypulpit
10-14-2007, 12:12 AM
I would rep you but I gotta spread some more joy first. Well written...well done.

PostmodernProphet
10-14-2007, 06:26 AM
Interesting research, it does affirm what we know but it's good to see a well-researched basis for that common knowledge.

Actually, the results of this study contradict what we know occured in the US.....

since Roe v Wade, abortions in the US rose to over 1 million a year and still today are slightly under that number.....I have never seen any estimates that illegal abortions prior to RvW came close to that number....

in addition, the number of women who die each year as a result of legal abortions is higher than the number of women that died as the result of illegal abortions in the three years prior to RvW......

Personally, I find no surprise that a study prepared by the Guttenmacher Institute (which is a subsidiary of Planned Parenthood) comes up with conclusions that support abortion....I am sure they are the source for all the 'estimated' numbers as well......

diuretic
10-14-2007, 07:25 AM
Actually, the results of this study contradict what we know occured in the US.....

since Roe v Wade, abortions in the US rose to over 1 million a year and still today are slightly under that number.....I have never seen any estimates that illegal abortions prior to RvW came close to that number....

in addition, the number of women who die each year as a result of legal abortions is higher than the number of women that died as the result of illegal abortions in the three years prior to RvW......

Personally, I find no surprise that a study prepared by the Guttenmacher Institute (which is a subsidiary of Planned Parenthood) comes up with conclusions that support abortion....I am sure they are the source for all the 'estimated' numbers as well......

Leaving aside the shoot the messenger reference that's interesting. I'm not aware of the US situation as regards abortion, aside from the effect of Roe v Wade I mean.

If abortions rose to about a million a year and have stayed at that level it seems to me that a million women need better information about birth control methods.

The constant number of about one million is interesting, aside from the need for birth control education.

If it's about a million all the time then does that mean that the number of illegal abortions before Roe v Wade would have been about the same?

Or do you think that the effect of Roe v Wade allowed more women to seek abortions?

Do you think that a woman who wanted an abortion was inhibited from seeking one simply because it was illegal?

I suppose it would be extremely difficult to find out the rates of unlawful abortion prior to Roe v Wade simply because it was illegal and therefore people didn't go around advertising themselves as either being illegal abortionists or having undergone the procedure. But I would think someone that knew something about statistics (I don't) would be able to work on the available numbers and perhaps give some idea of the rate.

I'm also surprised that the number of women who die from legal abortions post Roe v Wade is higher than the number of women who died from illegal abortions pre Roe v Wade.

I wonder if that's an indicator that the number of women seeking abortions pre Roe v Wade was actually smaller than we think and that the increased number post Roe v Wade might be a reason for the higher number of deaths connected with the procedure?

I haven't got a clue so I'm asking.

Hugh Lincoln
10-14-2007, 10:23 AM
The writer Rosenthal is a Jew. Jews like abortion because it pisses off Christians and leads to fewer living Christians. Jews, meanwhile, encourage their own to procreate as much as possible. The result of this is that they come to dominate as a people.

avatar4321
10-14-2007, 10:32 AM
How is it encouraging abortion in africa is not racist?

Immanuel
10-16-2007, 06:53 PM
"the estimated abortion rate was 54 per 1,000 women in 2003, more than twice the rate in the United States, 21 per 1,000 in that year. The lowest rate, 12 per 1,000, was in Western Europe, with legal abortion and widely available contraception."

These are definitive numbers? Let's see if I want to compare numbers such as these and I want to prove that countries with laws regulating or forbidding abortions have higher rates of abortion, I am going to "guess" that there are 54 abortions per 1000 in Uganda and call it an estimate. The more I want to prove my point the higher that percentage goes up and the lower the percentage in legalized abortion countries goes.

"Worldwide, the annual number of abortions appeared to have declined between 1995, the last year such a broad study was conducted, and 2003, from an estimated 46 million to 42 million, the study concluded. The 1995 study, by the Guttmacher Institute, had far less data on countries where abortion was illegal."

None of these numbers are even reliable because, Thank God, abortion is still taboo in many, many places even places where it is legal and the number of unreported abortions cannot even begin to be estimated.

Immie

typomaniac
10-16-2007, 07:08 PM
The writer Rosenthal is a Jew. Jews like abortion because it pisses off Christians and leads to fewer living Christians. Jews, meanwhile, encourage their own to procreate as much as possible. The result of this is that they come to dominate as a people.

Wrong: Jewish law says that only the smartest Jews (the scholars) are expected to procreate as much as possible. The stupider ones are much more restricted in how often they're allowed their nookie.

actsnoblemartin
10-16-2007, 07:18 PM
the more interesting question would be abortions before 1973, vs after.


Legal or Not, Abortion Rates Compare

By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL
ROME, Oct. 11 — A comprehensive global study of abortion has concluded that abortion rates are similar in countries where it is legal and those where it is not, suggesting that outlawing the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.

Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely. Globally, abortion accounts for 13 percent of women’s deaths during pregnancy and childbirth, and there are 31 abortions for every 100 live births, the study said.

The results of the study, a collaboration between scientists from the World Health Organization in Geneva and the Guttmacher Institute in New York, a reproductive rights group, are being published Friday in the journal Lancet.

“We now have a global picture of induced abortion in the world, covering both countries where it is legal and countries where laws are very restrictive,” Dr. Paul Van Look, director of the W.H.O. Department of Reproductive Health and Research, said in a telephone interview. “What we see is that the law does not influence a woman’s decision to have an abortion. If there’s an unplanned pregnancy, it does not matter if the law is restrictive or liberal.”

But the legal status of abortion did greatly affect the dangers involved, the researchers said. “Generally, where abortion is legal it will be provided in a safe manner,” Dr. Van Look said. “And the opposite is also true: where it is illegal, it is likely to be unsafe, performed under unsafe conditions by poorly trained providers.”

The data also suggested that the best way to reduce abortion rates was not to make abortion illegal but to make contraception more widely available, said Sharon Camp, chief executive of the Guttmacher Institute.

In Eastern Europe, where contraceptive choices have broadened since the fall of Communism, the study found that abortion rates have decreased by 50 percent, although they are still relatively high compared with those in Western Europe. “In the past we didn’t have this kind of data to draw on,” Ms. Camp said. “Contraception is often the missing element” where abortion rates are high, she said.

Anti-abortion groups criticized the research, saying that the scientists had jumped to conclusions from imperfect tallies, often estimates of abortion rates in countries where the procedure was illegal. “These numbers are not definitive and very susceptible to interpretation according to the agenda of the people who are organizing the data,” said Randall K. O’Bannon, director of education and research at the National Right to Life Educational Trust Fund in Washington.

He said that the major reason women die in the developing world is that hospitals and health systems lack good doctors and medicines. “They have equated the word ‘safe’ with ‘legal’ and ‘unsafe’ with ‘illegal,’ which gives you the illusion that to deal with serious medical system problems you just make abortion legal,” he said.

The study indicated that about 20 million abortions that would be considered unsafe are performed each year and that 67,000 women die as a result of complications from those abortions, most in countries where abortion is illegal.

The researchers used national data for 2003 from countries where abortion was legal and therefore tallied. W.H.O. scientists estimated abortion rates from countries where it was outlawed, using data on hospital admissions for abortion complications, interviews with local family planning experts and surveys of women in those countries.

The wealth of information that comes out of the study provides some striking lessons, the researchers said. In Uganda, where abortion is illegal and sex education programs focus only on abstinence, the estimated abortion rate was 54 per 1,000 women in 2003, more than twice the rate in the United States, 21 per 1,000 in that year. The lowest rate, 12 per 1,000, was in Western Europe, with legal abortion and widely available contraception.

The Bush administration’s multibillion-dollar campaign against H.I.V./AIDS in Africa has directed money to programs that promote abstinence before marriage, and to condoms only as a last resort. It has prohibited the use of American money to support overseas family planning groups that provide abortions or promote abortion as a method of family planning.

Worldwide, the annual number of abortions appeared to have declined between 1995, the last year such a broad study was conducted, and 2003, from an estimated 46 million to 42 million, the study concluded. The 1995 study, by the Guttmacher Institute, had far less data on countries where abortion was illegal.

Some countries, like South Africa, have undergone substantial transitions in abortion laws in that time. The procedure was made legal in South Africa in 1996, leading to a 90 percent decrease in mortality among women who had abortions, some studies have found.

Abortion is illegal in most of Africa, though. It is the second-leading cause of death among women admitted to hospitals in Ethiopia, its Health Ministry has said. It is the cause of 13 percent of maternal deaths at hospitals in Nigeria, recent studies have found.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html?ex=1349841600&en=37c9f942c1d9d2d7&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

actsnoblemartin
10-16-2007, 07:20 PM
i cant believe the racist and anti-semetic hog wash that comes out of your mouth sometimes. Honestly, I wonder if you confuse this with a kkk site sometimes.

Dont get me wrong, I dont wanna ban you, and sometimes you do say some smart things that are true, but when i think you say bullshit, i have every right to call you out on it.

You know nothing about jews, judaism, or the jewish people as a whole.


The writer Rosenthal is a Jew. Jews like abortion because it pisses off Christians and leads to fewer living Christians. Jews, meanwhile, encourage their own to procreate as much as possible. The result of this is that they come to dominate as a people.

Hugh Lincoln
10-16-2007, 09:02 PM
Wrong: Jewish law says that only the smartest Jews (the scholars) are expected to procreate as much as possible. The stupider ones are much more restricted in how often they're allowed their nookie.

I stand corrected. I don't know if Jewish law says this, but Jewish tradition has held it. This is how Jews have come to have higher IQ's.

The primary forces behind legalizing abortion were Jewish. Prominent abortion doctors were Jewish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Nathanson

http://wsi.matriots.com/abortbiz.html

typomaniac
10-16-2007, 11:05 PM
I stand corrected. I don't know if Jewish law says this, but Jewish tradition has held it. This is how Jews have come to have higher IQ's.

The primary forces behind legalizing abortion were Jewish. Prominent abortion doctors were Jewish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Nathanson

http://wsi.matriots.com/abortbiz.html

To the point of your link: nobody can convincingly argue that there's anything inherently wrong with valuing the mother's life above the fetus', or vice versa.

I don't know of any Jewish ethicists who would say that aborting a fetus for no other reason than personal convenience is an okay thing, though.

PostmodernProphet
10-17-2007, 06:21 AM
nobody can convincingly argue that there's anything inherently wrong with valuing the mother's life above the fetus'

if that were the only criteria, there would be less problem.....what percentage of abortions are currently undertaken due to a risk to the life of the mother?......1%?.....5%?.....certainly no higher....

Immanuel
10-17-2007, 07:27 AM
if that were the only criteria, there would be less problem.....what percentage of abortions are currently undertaken due to a risk to the life of the mother?......1%?.....5%?.....certainly no higher....

I read on a Guttmacher Institute slide presentation somewhere that it was less than 2%. Let see 2% of 1 million is 20,000. That is still a lot of lost human beings but when the life of the mother in truly in danger, exceptions need to be made.

Immie