Well This Doesn't Make My Day

[Kathianne]

https://themessenger.com/opinion/the-presidential-election-narrative-is-changing-with-likely-consequences-for-fundraising


The Presidential Election Narrative Is Changing — With Likely Consequences for FundraisingPublished 09/09/23 06:00 AM ET|Updated 09/09/23 08:25 AM ET
Douglas Schoen


There has been a huge change in the race for president, and it has more to do with elite opinions about the outcome of the race than it does with the actual numbers.


While there has been a marginal improvement in Donald Trump’s position vis-à-vis Joe Biden, largely due to Biden’s low ratings both for job performance and for his handling of the economy, Biden is also plagued by an increasing number of Democrats who are lukewarm to his position atop the party’s ticket.


Indeed, due to Biden’s age and an increasing perception of corruption involving his son Hunter Biden — who we learned this week is likely to be indicted on gun charges before the end of the month — Biden’s vulnerabilities as a candidate are rapidly piling up.


The reason this is important, is that with a spate of polls, including recent national polling by my firm, Schoen Cooperman Research, showing that Trump’s ratings as president (52% approve, 44% disapprove) are close to 10-points higher than Biden’s contemporaneous ratings (44% approve, 54% disapprove), political analysts are starting to realize that what happened in 2016 could well repeat itself in 2020: That is, an upset victory for Donald Trump.


To be sure, for the last six to nine months — both before and after the former president’s four indictments — the narrative among elites had been pretty much as follows: Trump is damaged goods due to his indictments; he can’t focus on a campaign; swing voters, suburbanites, and women will not vote for Trump; his focus on 2020 will just detract from hopes for a better future, and the GOP must do everything they can to find a stronger nominee.


Meanwhile, the data continues to show Trump with roughly a 40-point lead over his closest primary opponent, a 1-point lead over Biden in SCR’s recent polling, as well as a considerable advantage over Biden in the aforementioned retrospective versus current approval rating of the two administrations.


Put another way, despite people’s doubts about Donald Trump personally — and the doubts are substantial — they believe that he was a better president, on balance, than Joe Biden has been. Plainly speaking, the emphasis that the Biden administration has put on selling “Bidenomics” has fallen flat, and the administration’s ratings on economic management remain stuck below 40% and have even shown slight erosion in some national polls.


The reason this sea change among elite opinion is so important is the donor class obsessively reads the latest available polling data and related commentary. As more and more people recognize that the likelihood of a Trump nomination and potentially even presidency is a very real possibility, it will become tougher to raise and deploy funds needed to challenge Trump in the two states in which he is vulnerable: Iowa and New Hampshire.


This is not to say that Trump has the nomination locked up — he does not — but when I look at the polling in detail, I just don’t see a clear path for any of the other Republican candidates to upset him. This is an unprecedented situation in American politics. It is likely that we will go into the presidential race with two candidates with favorability ratings below 40% and deep-seated skepticism about the nation’s future and its leadership.


I’ve written previously that there is an opening for a “No Labels” candidate, but I am of the opinion that given the feelings of the electorate, such a person would need to be a fresh face such as Ross Perot was in 1992, when he got almost 20% of the popular vote.


The 1992 election may be ancient history, but what is not ancient history is the extraordinary dissatisfaction and cynicism the electorate holds today. And indeed, on the Democratic side, there will continue to be a renewed push to keep Biden in the race, because while her numbers have improved slightly, Vice President Kamala Harris remains deeply unpopular. Despite her statement earlier this week that she would be ready to take over the presidency if necessary, the American people disagree.


Ultimately, should Biden decide for whatever reason not to be a candidate for any reason, it would strengthen, not weaken, the Trump candidacy and increase the likelihood of his return to the Oval Office.


Douglas E. Schoen is a lawyer, political analyst and consultant. He advised President Bill Clinton during his 1996 reelection campaign and former New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg during his 2020 presidential campaign, among other public figures. He is the author of numerous books, including “Power: The 50 Truths” (2023).





Goes well with this I read earlier this morning:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4194581-bad-biden-polls-stoke-third-party-angst-for-democrats/

[AHZ]

https://themessenger.com/opinion/the-presidential-election-narrative-is-changing-with-likely-consequences-for-fundraising



Goes well with this I read earlier this morning:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4194581-bad-biden-polls-stoke-third-party-angst-for-democrats/


Look like a sure republican victory.

why is your day not made again?

[Gunny]

https://themessenger.com/opinion/the-presidential-election-narrative-is-changing-with-likely-consequences-for-fundraising



Goes well with this I read earlier this morning:

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4194581-bad-biden-polls-stoke-third-party-angst-for-democrats/

Couple of things. Hope Trump picks a good running mate (which he will more than likely purposefully not). Hope the Dems hang on to Joe as long as possible because they are divided about him. If the Dems pull out one of their rock stars that can galvanize the left, we'll be in a worse boat than we are now.

[AHZ]

Couple of things. Hope Trump picks a good running mate (which he will more than likely purposefully not). Hope the Dems hang on to Joe as long as possible because they are divided about him. If the Dems pull out one of their rock stars that can galvanize the left, we'll be in a worse boat than we are now.


how is winning a bad boat?

[Gunny]

how is winning a bad boat?Do try to remember your stances from one topic to another. We, the People lose regardless. Remember "the People"? The ones you are so concerned about you want to place them under authoritarian rule?

[AHZ]

Do try to remember your stances from one topic to another. We, the People lose regardless. Remember "the People"? The ones you are so concerned about you want to place them under authoritarian rule?


I think a trump win is best for working people.

he understands the value of not sending all the jobs away (or importing more desperate workers.

authoritarian rule? where have i advocated authoritarian rule?

[revelarts]

I didn't vote for Trump ...but... i have to admit that Trump was not as bad as I thought he would be.
Is he a terrible person? Yes.
Are his policies better than All of the dems. I think so.
Better than most, or all, of the other "front running" GOP candidates.
Sadly i have to say yes.

I haven't played in a lot of the threads here about why Trump is so bad as a candidate.
Can someone tell me why, Trump is sooo much worse than past Rs who've run, who've been president.
Other than the layers of BS/hypocritical "crimes" they've been throwing at him.

My main gripes with Trump policy wise was/is his horrific Covid1984 policies.
After that his posture towards Iran and a few other countries.
And some of his immigration policies & talk.
And the softness on the LGBXYZ issues

Compared to other politicians he wasn't that bad and he took more heat than I've seen in my lifetime over nonsense BS.

How will "the people" suffer more under Trump than under another Biden admin?
And what suffering will the GOP NOT bring, other than slightly less crazy hair on fire democrats "dividing the country".

Obama didn't have the caustic mouth that Trump has but some insist that he "divided the country more a than anyone ever!".
But somehow we the people got through 2 terms. Seems neither side is very interested in the unity of "the people".
No matter what politicians say the "other side" often takes it in the worse possible way.

I'm not sure who can speak to "the people" to remove that perception.
If that's what some folks are mainly concerned about, when they say "Trump not being good for the country." Well Ok, sure agreed. but I'm not sure anyone else is much better and IMO anyone who compromises anymore on various issues with the left will weaken the country MORE than someone who's offensives but takes a few stands on controversial issues.

Other than being a jerk/scumbag, what SPECIFIC problems does he bring to "the people" to "the country".
other than not making the country look as clean and noble as the front we like to put on.
Seriously, I'm not sure what the major concerns are.

But you know what, Tell you the truth I probably should be a bit more concerned.
since a win for Trump is a vote that, [I]in a narrow sense, does encourage that small group of 'white supremicist' and 'neo-nazis' who sadly like to float along in the pool with the Right.

Other than that I'm not sure what the major concerns are.

[AHZ]

I didn't vote for Trump ...but... i have to admit that Trump was not as bad as I thought he would be.
Is he a terrible person? Yes.
Are his policies better than All of the dems. I think so.
Better than most, or all, of the other "front running" GOP candidates.
Sadly i have to say yes.

I haven't played in a lot of the threads here about why Trump is so bad as a candidate.
Can someone tell me why, Trump is sooo much worse than past Rs who've run, who've been president.
Other than the layers of BS/hypocritical "crimes" they've been throwing at him.

My main gripes with Trump policy wise was/is his horrific Covid1984 policies.
After that his posture towards Iran and a few other countries.
And some of his immigration policies & talk.
And the softness on the LGBXYZ issues

Compared to other politicians he wasn't that bad and he took more heat than I've seen in my lifetime over nonsense BS.

How will "the people" suffer more under Trump than under another Biden admin?
And what suffering will the GOP NOT bring, other than slightly less crazy hair on fire democrats "dividing the country".

Obama didn't have the caustic mouth that Trump has but some insist that he "divided the country more a than anyone ever!".
But somehow we the people got through 2 terms. Seems neither side is very interested in the unity of "the people".
No matter what politicians say the "other side" often takes it in the worse possible way.

I'm not sure who can speak to "the people" to remove that perception.
If that's what some folks are mainly concerned about, when they say "Trump not being good for the country." Well Ok, sure agreed. but I'm not sure anyone else is much better and IMO anyone who compromises anymore on various issues with the left will weaken the country MORE than someone who's offensives but takes a few stands on controversial issues.

Other than being a jerk/scumbag, what SPECIFIC problems does he bring to "the people" to "the country".
other than not making the country look as clean and noble as the front we like to put on.
Seriously, I'm not sure what the major concerns are.

But you know what, Tell you the truth I probably should be a bit more concerned.
since a win for Trump is a vote that, [I]in a narrow sense, does encourage that small group of 'white supremicist' and 'neo-nazis' who sadly like to float along in the pool with the Right.

Other than that I'm not sure what the major concerns are.

because he did tariffs. and will do tariffs.

that's an bad no no word for people who conquer nations with corrupt trade policy, and their internationalist fascist minions.

[Kathianne]

I didn't vote for Trump ...but... i have to admit that Trump was not as bad as I thought he would be.
Is he a terrible person? Yes.
Are his policies better than All of the dems. I think so.
Better than most, or all, of the other "front running" GOP candidates.
Sadly i have to say yes.

I haven't played in a lot of the threads here about why Trump is so bad as a candidate.
Can someone tell me why, Trump is sooo much worse than past Rs who've run, who've been president.
Other than the layers of BS/hypocritical "crimes" they've been throwing at him.

My main gripes with Trump policy wise was/is his horrific Covid1984 policies.
After that his posture towards Iran and a few other countries.
And some of his immigration policies & talk.
And the softness on the LGBXYZ issues

Compared to other politicians he wasn't that bad and he took more heat than I've seen in my lifetime over nonsense BS.

How will "the people" suffer more under Trump than under another Biden admin?
And what suffering will the GOP NOT bring, other than slightly less crazy hair on fire democrats "dividing the country".

Obama didn't have the caustic mouth that Trump has but some insist that he "divided the country more a than anyone ever!".
But somehow we the people got through 2 terms. Seems neither side is very interested in the unity of "the people".
No matter what politicians say the "other side" often takes it in the worse possible way.

I'm not sure who can speak to "the people" to remove that perception.
If that's what some folks are mainly concerned about, when they say "Trump not being good for the country." Well Ok, sure agreed. but I'm not sure anyone else is much better and IMO anyone who compromises anymore on various issues with the left will weaken the country MORE than someone who's offensives but takes a few stands on controversial issues.

Other than being a jerk/scumbag, what SPECIFIC problems does he bring to "the people" to "the country". other than not making the coutry look as clean and noble as the front we like to put on.
Seriously, I'm not sure what the major concerns are.

But you know what, Tell you the truth I probably should be a bit more concerned.
since a win for Trump is a vote that, [I]in a narrow sense, does encourage that small group of 'white supremicist' and 'neo-nazis' who sadly like to float along in the pool with the Right.

Other than that I'm not sure what the major concerns are.

We agree on a few things: Trump certainly had better policies than Biden. I'd add that he wasn't corrupt as Biden has been. Both are good things, just not good enough.

You brought up Obama, I've written many times and am sincere: Obama led to Trump which led to Biden. Over 14 years of bad presidents, where the citizenry reflected the faults of the leadership. We are more divided. We are more selfish. We are more self-righteous and intolerant of others and their opinions. We are a worse people.

While I wasn't a DeSantis supporter, I have to admit to being very impressed by his hurricane response and Floridians response to him. I like what is being called his 'return to tea party' emphasis on deficits and spending. I want to know more about his thinking on China. I know I'm not 100% with him on Ukraine, but that seems reasonable.

[AHZ]

We agree on a few things: Trump certainly had better policies than Biden. I'd add that he wasn't corrupt as Biden has been. Both are good things, just not good enough.

You brought up Obama, I've written many times and am sincere: Obama led to Trump which led to Biden. Over 14 years of bad presidents, where the citizenry reflected the faults of the leadership. We are more divided. We are more selfish. We are more self-righteous and intolerant of others and their opinions. We are a worse people.

While I wasn't a DeSantis supporter, I have to admit to being very impressed by his hurricane response and Floridians response to him. I like what is being called his 'return to tea party' emphasis on deficits and spending. I want to know more about his thinking on China. I know I'm not 100% with him on Ukraine, but that seems reasonable.


yes. everyone is to blame.

yawn.

[Gunny]

We agree on a few things: Trump certainly had better policies than Biden. I'd add that he wasn't corrupt as Biden has been. Both are good things, just not good enough.

You brought up Obama, I've written many times and am sincere: Obama led to Trump which led to Biden. Over 14 years of bad presidents, where the citizenry reflected the faults of the leadership. We are more divided. We are more selfish. We are more self-righteous and intolerant of others and their opinions. We are a worse people.

While I wasn't a DeSantis supporter, I have to admit to being very impressed by his hurricane response and Floridians response to him. I like what is being called his 'return to tea party' emphasis on deficits and spending. I want to know more about his thinking on China. I know I'm not 100% with him on Ukraine, but that seems reasonable.Thanks for reminding me. I saw a video that made me immediately think of you. Off to go find it :)

[fj1200]

I didn't vote for Trump ...but... i have to admit that Trump was not as bad as I thought he would be.
Is he a terrible person? Yes.
Are his policies better than All of the dems. I think so.
Better than most, or all, of the other "front running" GOP candidates.
Sadly i have to say yes.

The bold is the contestable point.

[AHZ]

The bold is the contestable point.


who's better?

[revelarts]

The bold is the contestable point.
OK contest it.
I find to hard to watch the "debates"
and listen to the candidates talk. So maybe I've missed some important points.

I'm not a trump fan boy... contest on.
Tell me what policies are better, if so I'll agree with you.

I do like DeSantis on Abortion better than Trump but Trump surprisingly acutually DID more than many Rs who've talked a good game for decades.
I like DeSantis Covid1984 FAR better than Trump.
But DeSantis seems like another Bush Cheeny warmonger on foreign policy.


but sure I'm a very real Swing vote.

Specific policies PLEASE

[fj1200]

who's better?

Almost anyone.

[AHZ]

the funniest thing is trump is nailing it in terms of "electability".



He's juggernauting all polls.

[Kathianne]

OK contest it.
I find to hard to watch the "debates"
and listen to the candidates talk. So maybe I've missed some important points.

I'm not a trump fan boy... contest on.
Tell me what policies are better, if so I'll agree with you.

I do like DeSantis on Abortion better than Trump but Trump surprisingly acutually DID more than many Rs who've talked a good game for decades.
I like DeSantis Covid1984 FAR better than Trump.
But DeSantis seems like another Bush Cheeny warmonger on foreign policy.


but sure I'm a very real Swing vote.

Specific policies PLEASE

I haven't researched deeply on any-obviously we all know more about Trump than any others. I'd say that 2nd we know Nikki on foreign policy anyways. Funny, but from what I've heard from DeSantis, I think the opposite on his war stances. He seems to be anti-Ukraine. He doesn't really have the knowledge on China, from anything I've seen or read. I'd actually be very interested in his VP/Sec of State choices would be, as governors really do lack the foreign affairs knowledge in general.

[fj1200]

OK contest it.
I find to hard to watch the "debates"
and listen to the candidates talk. So maybe I've missed some important points.

I'm not a trump fan boy... contest on.
Tell me what policies are better, if so I'll agree with you.

I do like DeSantis on Abortion better than Trump but Trump surprisingly acutually DID more than many Rs who've talked a good game for decades.
I like DeSantis Covid1984 FAR better than Trump.
But DeSantis seems like another Bush Cheeny warmonger on foreign policy.


but sure I'm a very real Swing vote.

Specific policies PLEASE

I've been contesting for about 6 months now. ;) If it's practically the only thing that matters, :cough: tariffs, :cough: then he's utterly wrong. If it's his temperament then he's utterly unqualified. If it's ability to be POTUS for more Americans than just those who kowtow to him then he's utterly incapable. Does he even mention policies or does he just continue to whine?

And what did trump do on abortion?

[AHZ]

Almost anyone.


it has to be a specific person.

[AHZ]

I've been contesting for about 6 months now. ;) If it's practically the only thing that matters, :cough: tariffs, :cough: then he's utterly wrong. If it's his temperament then he's utterly unqualified. If it's ability to be POTUS for more Americans than just those who kowtow to him then he's utterly incapable. Does he even mention policies or does he just continue to whine?

And what did trump do on abortion?


so you know better than democracy?

[fj1200]

I haven't researched deeply on any-obviously we all know more about Trump than any others. I'd say that 2nd we know Nikki on foreign policy anyways. Funny, but from what I've heard from DeSantis, I think the opposite on his war stances. He seems to be anti-Ukraine. He doesn't really have the knowledge on China, from anything I've seen or read. I'd actually be very interested in his VP/Sec of State choices would be, as governors really do lack the foreign affairs knowledge in general.

But yet governors generally make the best POTI. It's not about what exact experience did he have rather does he have the wherewithal to put the right people in position.

[fj1200]

it has to be a specific person.

Nope. Not when the question is trump or...


so you know better than democracy?

Yes. Last time around democracy gave us a choice between the (D)oddering fool and the (R)ambling buffoon. Democracy might give us that choice again.

[SassyLady]

It's making my day better.

[AHZ]

all he really is is anti-tariff.

he said so.

it's his only specific.

[Kathianne]

But yet governors generally make the best POTI. It's not about what exact experience did he have rather does he have the wherewithal to put the right people in position.
Thus I want to hear who he'd consider. I'm liking him more, you can probably tell. LOL!

[fj1200]

all he really is is anti-tariff.

he said so.

it's his only specific.

You don't understand because you're a one-trick pony. And it's not even a good trick.

[AHZ]

Nope. Not when the question is trump or...



Yes. Last time around democracy gave us a choice between the (D)oddering fool and the (R)ambling buffoon. Democracy might give us that choice again.


so do you want klaus schwab and jamie diamond to just take over or what?

[AHZ]

You don't understand because you're a one-trick pony. And it's not even a good trick.


its the only policy you cared to mention in your BIG CONTEST post.



youre one too.

this anti-tariff thing is all the ccp needs from the paid-off american minders.

[fj1200]

Thus I want to hear who he'd consider. I'm liking him more, you can probably tell. LOL!

:thumb: He's an effective governor. That should put him near the top right off. Haley and Pence were even good governors as I recall.

[fj1200]

so do you want klaus schwab and jamie diamond to just take over or what?

You're not very intelligent. Case in point \/


its the only policy you cared to mention in your BIG CONTEST post.



youre one too.

this anti-tariff thing is all the ccp needs from the paid-off american minders.

You should pay attention more. You whining about tariffs constantly doesn't mean that all I can do is point out your ridiculous tariff positions.

[AHZ]

But yet governors generally make the best POTI. It's not about what exact experience did he have rather does he have the wherewithal to put the right people in position.

wow.

face-numbingly out of touch and pedantic.....

[fj1200]

wow.

face-numbingly out of touch and pedantic.....

People used to say, "hey let's get us a business man in office because he'll know how to delegate, yeah, let's do that." Well, we got ourselves a business man in office and he delegated rather poorly. Anyone who didn't kowtow to his rant of the day became persona non grata. I'm sorry that his record just doesn't hold up to real scrutiny. trump's entire record of actual accomplishment really hangs on McConnell and trump can't even recognize reality.

[Kathianne]

People used to say, "hey let's get us a business man in office because he'll know how to delegate, yeah, let's do that." Well, we got ourselves a business man in office and he delegated rather poorly. Anyone who didn't kowtow to his rant of the day became persona non grata. I'm sorry that his record just doesn't hold up to real scrutiny. trump's entire record of actual accomplishment really hangs on McConnell and trump can't even recognize reality.

That is true, the bolded. Trump's acolytes fail to recognize that too.

[Gunny]

I haven't researched deeply on any-obviously we all know more about Trump than any others. I'd say that 2nd we know Nikki on foreign policy anyways. Funny, but from what I've heard from DeSantis, I think the opposite on his war stances. He seems to be anti-Ukraine. He doesn't really have the knowledge on China, from anything I've seen or read. I'd actually be very interested in his VP/Sec of State choices would be, as governors really do lack the foreign affairs knowledge in general.He's a Naval officer. I can't imagine him not being up on China, or anywhere else for that matter. Then again, Jimmy Carter is a Naval officer, so no telling:laugh: Desantis' step up and lead is certainly in line with military training.

Trump wasn't the worst President, something I think keeps getting lost in the sauce of current stances on him. Had he focused on policy and reelection after 2020, selling ideas and policies instead of his unacceptable behavior beginning the minute he was declared not the winner, I probably would have no issue voting for him a third time. He's disqualified himself.
revelarts just for you: I've been hoping Joe Manchin would step in 3rd part and make a good splash. His being "viable" and all :poke:

[AHZ]

You're not very intelligent. Case in point \/



You should pay attention more. You whining about tariffs constantly doesn't mean that all I can do is point out your ridiculous tariff positions.


You haven't convincingly made the case that they're bad in any way.

[Kathianne]

He's a Naval officer. I can't imagine him not being up on China, or anywhere else for that matter. Then again, Jimmy Carter is a Naval officer, so no telling:laugh: Desantis' step up and lead is certainly in line with military training.

Trump wasn't the worst President, something I think keeps getting lost in the sauce of current stances on him. Had he focused on policy and reelection after 2020, selling ideas and policies instead of his unacceptable behavior beginning the minute he was declared not the winner, I probably would have no issue voting for him a third time. He's disqualified himself.
@revelarts (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=1760) just for you: I've been hoping Joe Manchin would step in 3rd part and make a good splash. His being "viable" and all :poke:

While I agree with fj's observation of a few minutes ago regarding McConnell's contributions to Trump's success, I haven't disagreed with you about Trump's outcomes. Nor do I disagree that since he lost and he DID lose to Biden, (of all people!), he's been horrible. Actually his horrible behavior began in September or so, when he finally realized he was losing. Yes, Covid was a big part-not for me though, but his bad behaviors were already starting. The rants, the Giuliani nonsense and such. After the election, more than embarrassing and bordering on anti-American. Then 1/6. Then the aftermath. The papers and the refusal to return-which would have saved some of what's now going on legally.

I voted for him the second time, I'll regret that always.

[AHZ]

so im gleaning it's desantis still.

desantis is your guy?

more electable because of all the bad polling?

he will not mobilize enough voters.

he's too much of the same.

[fj1200]

You haven't convincingly made the case that they're bad in any way.

Because you don't understand math and real world economics.

[fj1200]

Why the limitation to "why not trump?" What is the answer to "why trump?"

[Kathianne]

Because you don't understand math and real world economics.
and he doesn't care. From my take I get he's for the 'little guys' meaning those that invest, work hard, do well-they should 'pay their fair share,' meaning excess $$$ to the little guys.

This reminds me of something other than capitalism.

[AHZ]

and he doesn't care. From my take I get he's for the 'little guys' meaning those that invest, work hard, do well-they should 'pay their fair share,' meaning excess $$$ to the little guys.

This reminds me of something other than capitalism.



its not all that.

it's just that sending all the jobs away is extremely retarded, and benefits china over the american people.

[fj1200]

its not all that.

it's just that sending all the jobs away is extremely retarded, and benefits china over the american people.

Who suggested such?

[revelarts]

policies please.

I've been contesting for about 6 months now. ;)
If it's practically the only thing that matters, :cough: tariffs, :cough: then he's utterly wrong.
If it's his temperament then he's utterly unqualified.
If it's ability to be POTUS for more Americans than just those who kowtow to him then he's utterly incapable.
Does he even mention policies or does he just continue to whine?
And what did trump do on abortion?


So you're a 'one issue voter'? "tariffs"?
really?

Ok, I'm not a fans of tariffs but I'm not ideologically apposed to them.
China is undercutting the U.S. base, protective tariffs and limited foreign ownership of U.S. property & Biz aren't crazy restrictions to me.

-pointed sarcasm to follow-
FJ, I think tariffs should be safe, legal & rare.
Plus many US workers want tariffs to protect their jobs, so you'll lose those voters by being so religiously ANTI-TARIFF.
Most people don't believe like you do, they don't have your blind faith in the so-called "Free Market". Plus millions have died under slave and sweat shop labor because of "free markets" !!
Is that what you want FJ?
More people in sweat shops!!!????!!! ...(lol)...
-end pointed sarcasm-

Concerning Abortion
Well, Trump did finish off the Pro-Life Supreme court.
And he stopped U.S. funding of abortion world wide.
And outright supported a bill in congress that would have banned abortions past 20 weeks. The bill failed in the senate but unlike other R's he did actually support it.
There are other items but i cant think of them off the top of my head.
However he has NOT been consistent in act or word on this issue either. but what he has done has been real, rather than what most of the past 50 years of Rs have given, which is 50 years of pro life lip service.

[AHZ]

Who suggested such?


are you opposed to sending all the jobs away?

[Kathianne]

are you opposed to sending all the jobs away?

Non-responsive derailing. Again. Thread banned.

[fj1200]

policies please.



So you're a 'one issue voter'? "tariffs"?
really?

Ok, I'm not a fans of tariffs but I'm not ideologically apposed to them.
China is undercutting the U.S. base, protective tariffs and limited foreign ownership of U.S. property & Biz aren't crazy to restrictions to me.

-pointed sarcasm to follow-
FJ, I think tariffs should be safe, legal & rare.
Plus many US workers want tariffs to protect their jobs, so you'll lose those voters by being so religiously ANTI-TARIFF.
Most people don't believe like you do, they don't have your blind faith in the so-called "Free Market". Plus millions have died under slave and sweat shop labor because of "free markets" !!
Is that what you want FJ?
More people in sweat shops?
(lol)
-end pointed sarcasm-

Concerning Abortion
Well, Trump did finish off the Pro-Life Supreme court.
And he stopped U.S. funding of abortion world wide.
And outright supported a bill in congress that would have banned abortions past 20 weeks. The bill failed in the senate but unlike other R's he did actually support it.
There are other items but i cant think of them off the top of my head.

However he has NOT been constant in act or word on this issue either. but what he [I]has done has been real, rather than what most of the past 50 years of Rs have given which is 50 years of pro life lip service.

You selectively read as well? I gave 3 "ifs," there could have been more but my later question became "why trump?"



Tariffs are bad, there are other ways to deal with countries. I'm told that we wouldn't stop at just China.
Sweatshops? Please. Trade and capitalism has raised billions out of poverty. Even Bono knows more on trump.
Abortion: see McConnell. I like conservative judges but arguably two of them are because of McConnell. trump happened to be in the right place after 50 years of conservative movement. Do you want to give him credit for outsourcing judges to the Federalist Society? I'm right there but are you saying Cruz would have done differently?


I'm ready to have discussions but if you've been paying ANY attention lately those questions go in complete circles if they go anywhere.

[fj1200]

Non-responsive derailing. Again. Thread banned.

Maybe rev can pick up the slack.

[Kathianne]

Maybe rev can pick up the slack.

I've no doubt that Rev can pick up, if he so chooses. Sometimes he feels he doesn't get as thoughtful responses as he gives, I get it, but try again.

[revelarts]

You selectively read as well? I gave 3 "ifs," there could have been more but my later question became "why trump?"

I didn't ask for random "IFs" I asked for POLICIES. I even said please.
You only mention 1 policy that was tariffs.



Tariffs are bad, there are other ways to deal with countries. I'm told that we wouldn't stop at just China.
Sweatshops? Please. Trade and capitalism has raised billions out of poverty. Even Bono knows more on trump.

Your faith in "free markets" is fine but I'm not a free markets purist convert.
Sadly, Sweatshops are very real. and flourish in China which is making the cheap goods flooding the U.S..
And displacing U.S. workers... driving them into poverty.




Abortion: see McConnell. I like conservative judges but arguably two of them are because of McConnell. trump happened to be in the right place after 50 years of conservative movement. Do you want to give him credit for outsourcing judges to the Federalist Society? I'm right there but are you saying Cruz would have done differently?

I don't know what Cruz would have done. I've HOPED that many Rs would have done a lot more than they have.
But I'm talking about what was Actually done.

And the guy in the seat was Trump,
McConnell And the FS gets some credit as well fine by me.
But I'm not going to pretend that Trump wasn't there, it makes a difference.
As well as the 2 other pro-life items i mentioned.

[fj1200]

I didn't ask for random "IFs" I asked for POLICIES. I even said please.
You only mention 1 policy that was tariffs.

I voted for the buffoon, how many policy differences do you think I'm going to have? He was wrong on tariffs and that's what keeps getting brought up ad infinitum. We keep having the argument trump or biden when that is not the relevant question. He is not worthy of the office.


Your faith in "free markets" is fine but I'm not a free markets purist convert.
Sadly, Sweatshops are very real. and flourish in China which is making the cheap goods flooding the U.S..
And displacing U.S. workers... driving them into poverty.

We are far from free markets so the faith I have is tempered by the reality of what we have. Free trade is good. China is not perfect but as I said before I'm told that we're not stopping with China. I acknowledge the possibility that trump hasn't espoused specific views but I'm guessing where Peter Navarro would go if it doesn't end up being in jail.


I don't know what Cruz would have done. I've HOPED that many Rs would have done a lot more than they have.
But I'm talking about what was Actually done.

And the guy in the seat was Trump,
McConnell And the FS gets some credit as well fine by me.
But I'm not going to pretend that Trump wasn't there, it makes a difference.
As well as the 2 other pro-life items i mentioned.

Like I said, I voted for him. The problem being that trump gets credit for sitting in an office when something happens that we like. If you grant him credit for that then you need to take him to task for the other undeniably horrendous things that have happened absolutely because of him.

The absolute best thing he did economically was the corporate tax cut. Unfortunately the benefits are rolling in around now giving biden a campaign point.

[revelarts]

I voted for the buffoon, how many policy differences do you think I'm going to have? He was wrong on tariffs and that's what keeps getting brought up ad infinitum. We keep having the argument trump or biden when that is not the relevant question. He is not worthy of the office.


I didn't bring up tariffs you did.
I simply asked what you thought the other candidates were better on POLICY wise.

you said tariffs and now UNWORTHINESS.
sorry that's not a policy.


UNWORTHINESS.. sheesh what the heck?
That simply sounds like "I don't like him" to my brain FJ.
From there my brain just searches and wonders at what else you mean.
"not worthy"?! is he going to be a king? Or as people often ask me, "is he supposed to be a Pastor or something"?
Look, I know many American REVERE the Office. But bottom line for me, the president is supposed be an executive public servant that does the best for the people UNDER the constitution.
All the pomp and circumstance is mainly BS window dressing in my mind at least.
ANY American is "WORTHY" of the job.
Wether or not they are most capable of doing a GOOD job or not is a different question.
the ONLY question I've asked you.
"worthy" is not a factor.

SO the story so far, According to FJ,
Trump is worse than other GOP candidates policy wise on:
TARIFFS


and ????

[fj1200]

I didn't bring up tariffs you did.
I simply asked what you thought the other candidates were better on POLICY wise.

you said tariffs and now UNWORTHINESS.
sorry that's not a policy.


UNWORTHINESS.. sheesh what the heck?
That simply sounds like "I don't like him" to my brain FJ.
From there my brain just searches and wonders at what else you mean.
"not worthy"?! is he going to be a king? Or as people often ask me, "is he supposed to be a Pastor or something"?
Look, I know many American REVERE the Office. But bottom line for me, the president is supposed be an executive public servant that does the best for the people UNDER the constitution.
All the pomp and circumstance is mainly BS window dressing in my mind at least.
ANY American is "WORTHY" of the job.
Wether or not they are most capable of doing a GOOD job or not is a different question.
the ONLY question I've asked you.
"worthy" is not a factor.

SO the story so far, According to FJ,
Trump is worse than other GOP candidates policy wise on:
TARIFFS


and ????

I'll summarize where I think you are.

"trump shot someone on fifth avenue today and was voted in the next day because policy wise I like his stuff."

The man is a child and a buffoon and can't take rejection. Sounds like the kind of guy we should stand behind because policy wise... :rolleyes: He doesn't do the best for the people under the Constitution. And the sad thing is that's what some folks have been reduced to when in reality there were 8 people on a stage with not much of a spits worth of difference and you're gravitating to trump. My mind is boggled.

[revelarts]

I didn't vote for Trump ...but... i have to admit that Trump was not as bad as I thought he would be.
Is he a terrible person? Yes.
Are his policies better than All of the dems. I think so.
Better than most, or all, of the other "front running" GOP candidates.
Sadly i have to say yes.

The bold is the contestable point.

OK contest it.
...
but sure I'm a very real Swing vote.
Specific policies PLEASE




I didn't bring up tariffs you did.
I simply asked what you thought the other candidates were better on POLICY wise.
you said tariffs and now UNWORTHINESS.
sorry that's not a policy.

SO the story so far, According to FJ,
Trump is worse than other GOP candidates policy wise on:
TARIFFS
and ????


I'll summarize where I think you are.
"trump shot someone on fifth avenue today and was voted in the next day because policy wise I like his stuff."
The man is a child and a buffoon and can't take rejection. Sounds like the kind of guy we should stand behind because policy wise... :rolleyes: He doesn't do the best for the people under the Constitution. And the sad thing is that's what some folks have been reduced to when in reality there were 8 people on a stage with not much of a spits worth of difference and you're gravitating to trump. My mind is boggled.


mmm, somehow I'm still not seeing you make a case for better policies from the other GOP candidates.
Or even say they are more likely to actually follow thru on what they say vs Trump.

I see you name calling Trump... saying things I've already agreed about.
Look I told you I was a swing vote and instead of making a case for how much better POLICY wise the others are you keep telling me how bad Trump is.
That's the same way the GOP candidates and Hillary LOST last time!

I still don't know if i can bring myself to vote for Trump but My 'root for the underdog' nature has me leaning in that direction.

Recently I watched a video where Dick Chenny talks about how bad Trump is. How Trump's a threat to democracy and crap.
Chenny is 100 times worse than Trump! He's a war criminal. He promoted/ordered/covered up and "legalized" torture, he ran the unconstitutional patriot act through, and seized unconstitutional new presidential and federal powers, And messed with the Florida and Ohio elections to help get Bush elected. He promoted "rendition"... lied about Iraq and most likely Afghanistan... and had billions go into his former company.
Yet somehow he can sit free in a cowboy hat and encourage people NOT to vote for Trump.. because of "democracy".
That alone gives me ANOTHER reason to vote for Trump.

Sorry, but OBJECTIVELY speaking if I really have to choose a "VIABLE" candidate.
Sadly I'll have to take the Buffon Creep who walks in on teen girl beauty pageant locker rooms. The guy that for some reason the establishment types, the FBI & CIA are trying to destroy politically using 3rd world country level tricks.
I'd Perfer that guy over more warmongering non-buffoons, who will keep the establishment status quo on nearly all fronts & who want go around the world killing people over oil, computer chips, lithium and other commodities (otherwise known as "democracy") AND continue the slide away from the constitution and into global governance.

I've been voting for TO LONG to just believe what politicians SAY.
I've seen the range of Trump lies and where he actually acts.

I can't say the same for any of the others, If someone would tell me the great things they have done.
Show me the evidence that their words might match their actions.
Show me what they plan that addresses my concerns,
then they will get my vote.

But please don't whine to me in generalities about Trump, I've got a pretty good picture of who he is thanks.
He is the veritable "Devil you know".

I simply asked you to BACK UP your flip remark that my assessment can be contested.
And it seems you can not do it.
Look maybe there's not enough info available yet. Fine. say that. but please don't go into ad hominem attacks and commentary on what boggles your mind about what others voters might do.

how about MAKE A BETTER CASE FOR the OTHERS!
You and the GOP candidates will not beat Trump by complaining about Trump... or by complaining about Trumps potential voters.
It's not a VIABLE strategy man.

[revelarts]

We agree on a few things: Trump certainly had better policies than Biden. I'd add that he wasn't corrupt as Biden has been. Both are good things, just not good enough.

You brought up Obama, I've written many times and am sincere: Obama led to Trump which led to Biden. Over 14 years of bad presidents, where the citizenry reflected the faults of the leadership. We are more divided. We are more selfish. We are more self-righteous and intolerant of others and their opinions. We are a worse people.

over the years when i've promoted apparently morally decent men as candidates and encouraged that we look for GOOD moral qualities in candidates I've been told OVER and OVER again that,
"We are not electing a Minister" and "the candidate isn't viable" and even "the person is TOO good".

Seems to me we never really wanted really good moral people, we like tough guys, cowboys, "strait shooters" (even if they're liars), people who look presidential or that you can have beer with.
A veneer of morals, kindness and tolerance is all people left or right really seem to want.


but ok whatever, i have to ask.
Did Obama or Trump really make anyone more selfish?
Neither Obama or Trump changed me. How about you?
I've said this before.. Obama brought to the surface somethings that had been left undealt with, same with Trump.

IMO the way somethings were said and the way they've been taken made nearly everyone more defensive And looking for ways to protect themselves against real or imagined attacks on their vision/version of reality/history.

Having said that, Obama knowingly or unknowingly brought with him to the surface, somethings that were extreme lurking in the background of the left and academia.
Same with Trump.

But I have to ask, were Rush Limbaugh, Bill ORiley, Sean Hannity tolerant of others and their opinions before Obama showed up?
all the Left wing host on CNN and Comedy Central and "politically Incorrect" not self righteous?

Seems to me we've been a LONG way from William F Buckley style of political interaction for quite a while.
In public and private.



While I wasn't a DeSantis supporter, I have to admit to being very impressed by his hurricane response and Floridians response to him. I like what is being called his 'return to tea party' emphasis on deficits and spending. I want to know more about his thinking on China. I know I'm not 100% with him on Ukraine, but that seems reasonable.

I'd like to know more as well.

[Kathianne]

over the years when i've promoted apparently morally decent men as candidates and encouraged that we look for GOOD moral qualities in candidates I've been told OVER and OVER again that,
"We are not electing a Minister" and "the candidate isn't viable" and even "the person is TOO good".

Seems to me we never really wanted really good moral people, we like tough guys, cowboys, "strait shooters" (even if they're liars), people who look presidential or that you can have beer with.
A veneer of morals, kindness and tolerance is all people left or right really seem to want.


but ok whatever, i have to ask.
Did Obama or Trump really make anyone more selfish?
Neither Obama or Trump changed me. How about you?
I've said this before.. Obama brought to the surface somethings that had been left undealt with, same with Trump.

IMO the way somethings were said and the way they've been taken made nearly everyone more defensive And looking for ways to protect themselves against real or imagined attacks on their vision/version of reality/history.

Having said that, Obama knowingly or unknowingly brought with him to the surface, somethings that were extreme lurking in the background of the left and academia.
Same with Trump.

But I have to ask, were Rush Limbaugh, Bill ORiley, Sean Hannity tolerant of others and their opinions before Obama showed up?
all the Left wing host on CNN and Comedy Central and "politically Incorrect" not self righteous?

Seems to me we've been a LONG way from William F Buckley style of political interaction for quite a while.
In public and private.



I'd like to know more as well.

Actually I DO THINK society was better off before shock jocks, Bill Clinton, The news/entertainers you mentioned; yes before Obama and Trump too.

People our age, being brought up the way I was-assuming you too-are not going to change as much as our children or young adults at certain times either. My parents did not swear, can't say the same for me-while I curbed it when my kids were small-I certainly picked it right up again when they were older. Started in college myself-it was the norm then. Not when my parents were in school.

The sexual revolution or the availability of birth control certainly changed behaviors. While no one would pretend premarital sex was invented, it certainly became the norm and what would have once been consider 'loose' was no longer so. Society accepted the new mores, no matter how lamented they were.

[fj1200]

I simply asked you to BACK UP your flip remark that my assessment can be contested.
And it seems you can not do it.
Look maybe there's not enough info available yet. Fine. say that. but please don't go into ad hominem attacks and commentary on what boggles your mind about what others voters might do.

how about MAKE A BETTER CASE FOR the OTHERS!
You and the GOP candidates will not beat Trump by complaining about Trump... or by complaining about Trumps potential voters.
It's not a VIABLE strategy man.

I'm not going to go through that point by point. He is not a good person and I haven't even really seen which of his policies you're for at this point. If his policies are "make America great again" he doesn't do that imho.