How far is USA willing to go to defend Taiwan

[Black Diamond]

I am thinking of two extremes. Eisenhower authorized the use of nukes to defend the island nation.
Biden may just let it fall into chinese hands and with help of the media blame trump.

[Kathianne]

I am thinking of two extremes. Eisenhower authorized the use of nukes to defend the island nation.
Biden may just let it fall into chinese hands and with help of the media blame trump.

I don't think Eisenhower authorized the use of nukes anywhere. Something I don't know?

[Black Diamond]

I don't think Eisenhower authorized the use of nukes anywhere. Something I don't know?

Heard it in my history of American foreign policy course

[Black Diamond]

In looking for evidence there are contradictory sources. 1958 is the year in question

[Kathianne]

In looking for evidence there are contradictory sources. 1958 is the year in question

It doesn't sound like Eisenhower, he was quite put off nuclear weapons, thus his serious problems with Korea and generals. While he was willing to threaten, there's an abundance of evidence he had no intention of using.

[AHZ]

I am thinking of two extremes. Eisenhower authorized the use of nukes to defend the island nation.
Biden may just let it fall into chinese hands and with help of the media blame trump.
Not far at all.

our elites have already capitulated to china.

they are too pussy/corrupt to even acknowledge that the trade imbalance is retarded and tariffs are clearly called for.

we're basically on our own.

our best move now is to reject the internationalist straight jacket economic system and not be raped by it.

domestic production. tariffs. barter. real money.

america first.

Donald Trump 2024.

[Black Diamond]

It doesn't sound like Eisenhower, he was quite put off nuclear weapons, thus his serious problems with Korea and generals. While he was willing to threaten, there's an abundance of evidence he had no intention of using.

It certainly doesn't. He was against the nuclear bombing of Japan from what i read. I haven't read any of his biography but his mother was a Mennonite which I think contributed to who he was.

[fj1200]

Not far at all.

our elites have already capitulated to china.

they are too pussy/corrupt to even acknowledge that the trade imbalance is retarded and tariffs are clearly called for.

we're basically on our own.

our best move now is to reject the internationalist straight jacket economic system and not be raped by it.

domestic production. tariffs. barter. real money.

america first.

Donald Trump 2024.

Stupid. Off topic. Stupid.

[AHZ]

Stupid. Off topic. Stupid.

I answered the question.

they will not go far at all.

and i listed my reasons.

we can go over anything you don't understand.

[fj1200]

I answered the question.

they will not go far at all.

and i listed my reasons.

we can go over anything you don't understand.

Part of that replied to your answer. Your word salad reply is off topic and incomprehensible. Even you don't understand enough to cogently lay out the rationale.

[AHZ]

Part of that replied to your answer. Your word salad reply is off topic and incomprehensible. Even you don't understand enough to cogently lay out the rationale.


it's very simple sentence stucture i've presented.

what's confusing you?

word salad seems highly wrong to describe anything i've typed.



maybe you've never read someone as original as me, and so its hard for your synapses to form the new meanings in your sluggish neural net?

I am the lightning.

koo koo kachoo.

[fj1200]

it's very simple sentence stucture i've presented.

what's confusing you?

word salad seems highly wrong to describe anything i've typed.



maybe you've never read someone as original as me, and so its hard for your synapses to form the new meanings in your sluggish neural net?

I am the lightning.

koo koo kachoo.

Maybe you'll graduate from simple sentences to structured paragraphs. Cogent points with well thought out logic might be a bridge to far though based on past history.

[Kathianne]

Maybe you'll graduate from simple sentences to structured paragraphs. Cogent points with well thought out logic might be a bridge to far though based on past history.
You are way overly optimistic.

[Gunny]

It certainly doesn't. He was against the nuclear bombing of Japan from what i read. I haven't read any of his biography but his mother was a Mennonite which I think contributed to who he was.I have been leery of the whole China - Taiwan thing. Pooh rattling his sabre at every turn and Biden promising defense as quietly as he can whisper. His lackey's usually have to blow smoke for him.

No evidence, but well within the realm of probabilities, is these two assclowns putting on a show as a ruse. Neither country can afford war with the other without destroying one, the other or both, and crashing the World's economy.

[Kathianne]

I have been leery of the whole China - Taiwan thing. Pooh rattling his sabre at every turn and Biden promising defense as quietly as he can whisper. His lackey's usually have to blow smoke for him.

No evidence, but well within the realm of probabilities, is these two assclowns putting on a show as a ruse. Neither country can afford war with the other without destroying one, the other or both, and crashing the World's economy.

I've serious concerns that China will speed up their plan for attacks, due to their failing economic and possible civil unrest from within.

[AHZ]

Maybe you'll graduate from simple sentences to structured paragraphs. Cogent points with well thought out logic might be a bridge to far though based on past history.


What's unclear about the notion that our elites will do little because they're already corrupted by china?

it's so simple a paragraph is unnecessary.

I can't make it clearer.

[Kathianne]

This: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2023-03-09/China-s-modernization-strategy-How-China-plans-to-double-its-GDP-by-2035-1i15DvGsLyE/index.html#:~:text=China's%20annual%20Two%20Sessio ns%20meetings,in%20need%20of%20financial%20stimulu s.

and this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-26/xi-s-vow-of-world-dominance-by-2049-sends-chill-through-markets

These both have been around for many years, it looked until recently that China was on track, now?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I've serious concerns that China will speed up their plan for attacks, due to their failing economic and possible civil unrest from within.

My friend, that is my big worry as well.. Nations have went to war because of failing economies in the past.
And that is a known catalyst. Diversionary tactic, war. We had better hope not in this case. --Tyr

[AHZ]

This: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2023-03-09/China-s-modernization-strategy-How-China-plans-to-double-its-GDP-by-2035-1i15DvGsLyE/index.html#:~:text=China's%20annual%20Two%20Sessio ns%20meetings,in%20need%20of%20financial%20stimulu s.

and this:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-26/xi-s-vow-of-world-dominance-by-2049-sends-chill-through-markets

These both have been around for many years, it looked until recently that China was on track, now?


Now?

now it's evident all these glittering generalities were horseshit from the beginning.

ask the uighurs about their commitment to inclusiveness.

all their corporate statements have been lies for years because their companies were not held to usual accounting standards that had to be employed for all other companies on public exchanges.

great exceptions were made for chinese companies in err.

[fj1200]

I have been leery of the whole China - Taiwan thing.


I've serious concerns that China will speed up their plan for attacks, due to their failing economic and possible civil unrest from within.

I don't see the upside but I didn't see it with Ukraine either.

[AHZ]

I don't see the upside but I didn't see it with Ukraine either.
upside your head.
:dance::clap::dance::clap::dance::clap::dance:
:clap::dance::clap::dance::clap::dance::clap:

[fj1200]

upside your head.

What was the upside to go into Ukraine? What is the upside to go into Taiwan?

[Black Diamond]

What was the upside to go into Ukraine? What is the upside to go into Taiwan?

Ukraine not joining nato.

[Black Diamond]

What was the upside to go into Ukraine? What is the upside to go into Taiwan?

My wife has the computer so i am responding via phone. I am sure re there are upsides to invading taiwan but they are not worth the risks depending on our ability to defend.
Taiwanese here in Vegas seem to be quite bigoted against Chinese.

[AHZ]

My wife has the computer so i am responding via phone. I am sure re there are upsides to invading taiwan but they are not worth the risks depending on our ability to defend.
Taiwanese here in Vegas seem to be quite bigoted against Chinese.
of course.

taiwan is the real chinese culture without it being destroyed by maoist totalitarian fascist idiocy.

[Gunny]

I've serious concerns that China will speed up their plan for attacks, due to their failing economic and possible civil unrest from within.I don't see the reward being worth the risk when all they have to do is wait. Biden and the Dems will fix that problem for them:rolleyes: That would be more in line with the way China thinks. Wild card is Pooh. He lets his ego get in the way of sticking to what has obviously been a plan carried out over decades.

The US has no choice but respond. While everyone sees "Taiwan", the entire sphere of influence is at stake.

[Kathianne]

Ukraine not joining nato.

You think they would have been allowed into NATO pre-invasion?

[Gunny]

Ukraine not joining nato.It was not Ukraine joining NATO. That was not an issue. Putin not being able to control his puppet government in Ukraine the Ukrainian people ousted is the issue. Ukraine leaning toward Western culture was/is an issue with Putin.

Ukraine joining NATO came post-"special military operation".

[AHZ]

I don't see the reward being worth the risk when all they have to do is wait. Biden and the Dems will fix that problem for them:rolleyes: That would be more in line with the way China thinks. Wild card is Pooh. He lets his ego get in the way of sticking to what has obviously been a plan carried out over decades.

The US has no choice but respond. While everyone sees "Taiwan", the entire sphere of influence is at stake.


DO you think the u.s. would use nukes over it?

[AHZ]

It was not Ukraine joining NATO. That was not an issue. Putin not being able to control his puppet government in Ukraine the Ukrainian people ousted is the issue. Ukraine leaning toward Western culture was/is an issue with Putin.

Ukraine joining NATO came post-"special military operation".
how did zelensky end up President of ukrain?

[Kathianne]

I don't see the reward being worth the risk when all they have to do is wait. Biden and the Dems will fix that problem for them:rolleyes: That would be more in line with the way China thinks. Wild card is Pooh. He lets his ego get in the way of sticking to what has obviously been a plan carried out over decades.

The US has no choice but respond. While everyone sees "Taiwan", the entire sphere of influence is at stake.

Considering Xi recent history, ego seems a big problem, no?

[Kathianne]

how did zelensky end up President of ukrain?
Do your own homework or share your vast repertoire of knowledge.

[Black Diamond]

Considering Xi recent history, ego seems a big problem, no?

Often is when someone gets that much power.

[Gunny]

Considering Xi recent history, ego seems a big problem, no?Absolutely. The joker in the deck. Let's hope reality sinks in. He currently can't win.

This whole "if I can't have it I'm going to screw it up for everyone else" mentality quite a few World leaders are displaying is troublesome and getting people killed for what in the end will be nothing.

[Gunny]

Do your own homework or share your vast repertoire of knowledge.OR ... he could look it up her on the board. It's been explained in detail. I'll even make it easier: I explained it in detail at least once. Hint #2: posts by Gunny ...

[Gunny]

Often is when someone gets that much power.He's got little man issues. And apparently a major issue with a certain Disney character :laugh:

Question is are there cooler heads that can prevail? Or is he another Putin with absolute authority?

[Kathianne]

He's got little man issues. And apparently a major issue with a certain Disney character :laugh:

Question is are there cooler heads that can prevail? Or is he another Putin with absolute authority?

I remember the hope that arose when he first stepped up:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/17/business/china-xi-jinping-governance.html


THE NEW NEW WORLD

‘Moving Backward’: In Xi’s China, Some See an Era of Total Control
A decade ago, many prominent Chinese hoped that Xi Jinping would usher in openness and reform. Today, some of them believe he has created a totalitarian state.


By Li Yuan
Oct. 17, 2022


As Xi Jinping was preparing to take the helm of the Chinese Communist Party a decade ago, a great number of China’s political, business and intellectual elites were hopeful that he would make their country more open, just and prosperous.


They included a professor at the party’s top academy who helped train thousands of high-ranking cadres. An economist who would win China’s top economics prize for 2012. A young historian planning to teach a class about contemporary Chinese history, including sensitive periods like the Cultural Revolution.


Mr. Xi’s speech at the opening of the 20th party congress on Sunday made it clearer than ever that China is moving in the opposite direction from liberalization. Obsessed with national security, he is more focused on quashing all ideological and geopolitical challenges than on reform and opening up, the policies that brought China out of poverty.


He used the term “new era” 39 times in his speech, boasting of the party’s achievements under his leadership. But for some Chinese, it has been a dark era — a shift away from a system that, while authoritarian, tolerated private enterprise and some diversity in public opinion to one that now espouses a single ideology and a single leader.


The former professor at the Central Party School, Cai Xia, urged the United States and the world to see China as she sees it: as a totalitarian state that rules with “terror and ideology,” referring to a well-known political theory.


“It’s been an era of moving backward,” she said after watching Mr. Xi’s speech. “It was a decade that was marked by economic retrogression and ideological struggles.”

Ms. Cai has been expelled from the party for such criticism. The historian, Sun Peidong, can no longer teach or publish freely. Xu Chenggang, the economist, is disappointed that the party again controls everything, including the private sector.


All three are living in the United States.


They all believe that China, with its vast surveillance systems and punitive social control, now resembles Stalin’s Soviet Union and Mao’s China. In their view, even Russia and Iran have more space for dissent.

...

[Gunny]

I remember the hope that arose when he first stepped up:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/17/business/china-xi-jinping-governance.htmlI was thinking more along the lines of the government having a means to stop him, like Trump trying to get the nuke codes.

That's based on if they even wanted to.

[Black Diamond]

He's got little man issues. And apparently a major issue with a certain Disney character :laugh:

Question is are there cooler heads that can prevail? Or is he another Putin with absolute authority?
Did napoleon have a napoleon complex?:cool:
I think trying to take taiwan could escalate into something global. Remains to be seen what Ukraine invasion will bring.
When i say global i mean Chinese and American cities getting hit.
But again. With Biden at the helm what could possibly go wrong.

[Kathianne]

Did napoleon have a napoleon complex?:cool:
I think trying to take taiwan could escalate into something global. Remains to be seen what Ukraine invasion will bring.
When i say global i mean Chinese and American cities getting hit.
But again. With Biden at the helm what could possibly go wrong.

I guess the real question is what would the Chiefs do IF Biden tried to force China out of Taiwan should it happen. Several times he's said we would defend and it's always been walked back by admin and defense-one China and all that.

So, IF China acted and Biden's real reaction is to respond, what would happen?

[Gunny]

I guess the real question is what would the Chiefs do IF Biden tried to force China out of Taiwan should it happen. Several times he's said we would defend and it's always been walked back by admin and defense-one China and all that.

So, IF China acted and Biden's real reaction is to respond, what would happen?IMO, we have no choice but respond. To name a few, if we do not, we put at risk Japan, Australia, RP, RK, and all the other Pacific Rim island nations. Without us, the Pacific Rim alliance falls apart. With us, China cannot defeat the Pacific Rim.

China's main advantage is like Russia's -- proximity to home.

[Kathianne]

IMO, we have no choice but respond. To name a few, if we do not, we put at risk Japan, Australia, RP, RK, and all the other Pacific Rim island nations. Without us, the Pacific Rim alliance falls apart. With us, China cannot defeat the Pacific Rim.

China's main advantage is like Russia's -- proximity to home.

Seriously, I am not certain that total removal would be #1 goal-IF China tried to invade Japan? Certainly.

[Black Diamond]

IMO, we have no choice but respond. To name a few, if we do not, we put at risk Japan, Australia, RP, RK, and all the other Pacific Rim island nations. Without us, the Pacific Rim alliance falls apart. With us, China cannot defeat the Pacific Rim.

China's main advantage is like Russia's -- proximity to home.

I don't know that Biden has the capacity. Unless Obama really is pulling the strings.

[fj1200]

Ukraine not joining nato.

Could be.


My wife has the computer so i am responding via phone. I am sure re there are upsides to invading taiwan but they are not worth the risks depending on our ability to defend.
Taiwanese here in Vegas seem to be quite bigoted against Chinese.

Yeah, I just don't see the long-term benefits to either. Russia is killing its future and its population slowly. Every time they go to war they kill off another generation which they can ill afford as they're not replacing their populace as it is. And China would kill its fugure economic prospects by pissing off the rest of the world.

[Gunny]

I don't know that Biden has the capacity. Unless Obama really is pulling the strings.Biden certainly does not have the capacity/capability to command the armed forces. In the case of something like China invading Taiwan, the response plans have been around since the 1950s. All they have to do is make his little wooden head say "go". The military doesn't need him to carry out pre-planned operations nor the natural progression of them. Fortunately, unlike Afghanistan, RimPac has been planned for decades without his empty head.

What many assume and should not, is China cakewalking it through Taiwan. Unless they've done a 180 since last I was there, that ain't going to happen. There's no quick victory over Taiwan without nukes.

[Black Diamond]

Biden certainly does not have the capacity/capability to command the armed forces. In the case of something like China invading Taiwan, the response plans have been around since the 1950s. All they have to do is make his little wooden head say "go". The military doesn't need him to carry out pre-planned operations nor the natural progression of them. Fortunately, unlike Afghanistan, RimPac has been planned for decades without his empty head.

What many assume and should not, is China cakewalking it through Taiwan. Unless they've done a 180 since last I was there, that ain't going to happen. There's no quick victory over Taiwan without nukes.

Okay is there an automatic response on our part for china nuking Taipei?

[Gunny]

Okay is there an automatic response on our part for china nuking Taipei?Of course not. Even if China nuked Taipei, nuclear response is still just one option.

Consider this: if China nukes Taiwan, what did China win? An island that glows in the dark they cannot use without fear of radiation poisoning. Guess they won't need a lighthouse anymore :)

Aside from an ego issue, China wants Taiwan to control and terrorize the S China Sea and force its users to pay, and it wants Taiwan's semiconductor industry.

[Black Diamond]

Of course not. Even if China nuked Taipei, nuclear response is still just one option.

Consider this: if China nukes Taiwan, what did China win? An island that glows in the dark they cannot use without fear of radiation poisoning. Guess they won't need a lighthouse anymore :)

Aside from an ego issue, China wants Taiwan to control and terrorize the S China Sea and force its users to pay, and it wants Taiwan's semiconductor industry.

I was thinking of the semiconductors earlier. What about using lower yield nukes on taiwan?

[Gunny]

I was thinking of the semiconductors earlier. What about using lower yield nukes on taiwan?Current fairy tale "lower yield nukes" is like a little bit dead or a little bit pregnant or a smaller dose of arsenic. True, a smaller nuclear weapon will have a lower yield; therefore, theoretically less radiation poisoning to deal with. Less is not attractive to me.

There is also the fact China doesn't give a crap about its people and would have about as much issue sending them to a radioactive Taiwan as Putin had camping his troops out right outside Chernobyl.

I'm not a computer geek, but even I have to wonder what does nuclear radiation do to the raw materials used to make semiconductors? I doubt China would be concerned about that, nor sending poison around the World anymore than it was with COVID 19, but something to ponder.

Question is: is Taiwan worth that? It's not like Pooh can't use Russia's current economic situation as a crystal ball. The stigma that comes with being the aggressor and user of nukes. Sure would put an end to all the smiling in the World's faces China's been doing. IMO, it would further isolate China and push it closer to Russia. Contrary to popular myth, they don't like one another.

The US, Japan, Australia, S Korea and New Zealand are NATO members. If they are dragged in to defending Taiwan, is NATO as well?

[Kathianne]

Current fairy tale "lower yield nukes" is like a little bit dead or a little bit pregnant or a smaller dose of arsenic. True, a smaller nuclear weapon will have a lower yield; therefore, theoretically less radiation poisoning to deal with. Less is not attractive to me.

There is also the fact China doesn't give a crap about its people and would have about as much issue sending them to a radioactive Taiwan as Putin had camping his troops out right outside Chernobyl.

I'm not a computer geek, but even I have to wonder what does nuclear radiation do to the raw materials used to make semiconductors? I doubt China would be concerned about that, nor sending poison around the World anymore than it was with COVID 19, but something to ponder.

Question is: is Taiwan worth that? It's not like Pooh can't use Russia's current economic situation as a crystal ball. The stigma that comes with being the aggressor and user of nukes. Sure would put an end to all the smiling in the World's faces China's been doing. IMO, it would further isolate China and push it closer to Russia. Contrary to popular myth, they don't like one another.

The US, Japan, Australia, S Korea and New Zealand are NATO members. If they are dragged in to defending Taiwan, is NATO as well?


Doing what Xi did to Hong Kong, was not a good move for China. I doubt moving on Taiwan would be either. I think it really is about 'saving face' and reuniting his idea of kingdom.

[AHZ]

Do your own homework or share your vast repertoire of knowledge.


haha. you can't back up your assertions and are rude. lol.:dance:

[Gunny]

Doing what Xi did to Hong Kong, was not a good move for China. I doubt moving on Taiwan would be either. I think it really is about 'saving face' and reuniting his idea of kingdom.Which brings up a good question: Where's all his gung ho about reuniting N Korea? That would be doing the World a favor instead of being its biggest PIA.

He has no face to save regarding Taiwan. If he just shut up, I doubt anyone would push the issue. That's a self-created pressure.

[Kathianne]

Which brings up a good question: Where's all his gung ho about reuniting N Korea? That would be doing the World a favor instead of being its biggest PIA.

He has no face to save regarding Taiwan. If he just shut up, I doubt anyone would push the issue. That's a self-created pressure.

I think he's 'Old China' in view. Center of Universe, best on Earth. Would probably shut door on all if it were possible.

[revelarts]

....Consider this: if China nukes Taiwan, what did China win? An island that glows in the dark they cannot use without fear of radiation poisoning. Guess they won't need a lighthouse anymore ;)....
agreed


IMO, we have no choice but respond. To name a few, if we do not, we put at risk Japan, Australia, RP, RK, and all the other Pacific Rim island nations. Without us, the Pacific Rim alliance falls apart. With us, China cannot defeat the Pacific Rim. 
China's main advantage is like Russia's -- proximity to home.
I was always told we ALWAYS have a choice.
But correct me if i'm wrong, Ukraine isn't in NATO and Taiwan isn't in any official treaty based Pacific Regional Military alliance that includes the U.S..



Aside from an ego issue, China wants Taiwan to control and terrorize the S China Sea and force its users to pay, and it wants Taiwan's semiconductor industry.

Taiwan's semiconductor industry ...that's a bingo.
It's what the U.S. wants as well. And it seems the PRIMARY reason why 'the powers that be' are concerned about Taiwan at this point.
Like the U.S. was/is concerned about Iraq because of oil (Afghanistan oil pipeline/minerals/cocaine) .

And I'm no military strategist but when i look at a map of the pacific It seems to me that China has plenty of pacific coastline to use if they wanted to control and terrorize the S China Sea & the Pacific.
Seems they souldn't have ANY problem. In fact they seem to fly & float all over the Pacific pretty freely now.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F3MbGbVWEAANE5O?format=jpg&name=medium

[revelarts]

Poll Question for the everyone:
Do you support the U.S. going to war with China if China tries to take Taiwan militarily or by bloodless coup?

[Kathianne]

Poll Question for the everyone:
Do you support the U.S. going to war with China if China tries to take Taiwan militarily or by bloodless coup?

If it's just US v China over Taiwan, no. Sanctions and working with allies behind the scenes. If it cause immediate response of allies, especially Japan, Australia, NZ... likely to become world response.

[Gunny]

If it's just US v China over Taiwan, no. Sanctions and working with allies behind the scenes. If it cause immediate response of allies, especially Japan, Australia, NZ... likely to become world response.

The South China Sea carries a third of the World's shipping. It isn't just about Taiwan and semiconductors. Controlling Taiwan extends China's exclusive economic zone to encompass the entire strait. China can then demand pay for transit, harass/terrorize ships passing through.

It all amounts to giving your milk money to bully.

[Gunny]

If it's just US v China over Taiwan, no. Sanctions and working with allies behind the scenes. If it cause immediate response of allies, especially Japan, Australia, NZ... likely to become world response.The point to my previous post being that China attempting to invade Taiwan isn't going to be about just that. It impacts World shipping and threatens surrounding island nations with which China has border disputes with most. So who's next?

As far as war goes, I'll say the same thing I always do: We need to honor our word instead of being fair weather friends. People (in this case Taiwan) base their very existence on it.

[Kathianne]

The point to my previous post being that China attempting to invade Taiwan isn't going to be about just that. It impacts World shipping and threatens surrounding island nations with which China has border disputes with most. So who's next?

As far as war goes, I'll say the same thing I always do: We need to honor our word instead of being fair weather friends. People (in this case Taiwan) base their very existence on it.

I'm pretty sure we never led Taiwan to think we'd go to war for them, at least prior to he with dementia.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Poll Question for the everyone:
Do you support the U.S. going to war with China if China tries to take Taiwan militarily or by bloodless coup?

NO!---Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm pretty sure we never led Taiwan to think we'd go to war fir them, st least prior to he with dementia.

The dementia candidate sitting in office now is in China's pocket. So he wouldn't go to war
against China if it took Hawaii.....--Guy has fried squash for brains. Sad, sad , sad...
We be better off if he was replaced with a toaster. --Tyr

[Kathianne]

The dementia candidate sitting in office now is in China's pocket. So he wouldn't go to war
against China if it took Hawaii.....--Guy has fried squash for brains. Sad, sad , sad...
We be better off if he was replaced with a toaster. --Tyr
He's more likely to go to war, if not stopped by the Chiefs, than an Obama or Trump. He's not working on all cylinders, as you say.

[SassyLady]

It was not Ukraine joining NATO. That was not an issue. Putin not being able to control his puppet government in Ukraine the Ukrainian people ousted is the issue. Ukraine leaning toward Western culture was/is an issue with Putin.

Ukraine joining NATO came post-"special military operation".

I'm pretty sure Ukraine asked for membership before the invasion. As far back as 2008. And, right after Biden was elected Zalensky starting putting pressure on everyone. Early 2021 ... invasion in 2022.


https://warontherocks.com/2021/06/why-nato-should-not-offer-ukraine-and-georgia-membership-action-plans/

https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-ukraine

[SassyLady]

Poll Question for the everyone:
Do you support the U.S. going to war with China if China tries to take Taiwan militarily or by bloodless coup?
No

[Gunny]

I'm pretty sure we never led Taiwan to think we'd go to war for them, at least prior to he with dementia.We have always guaranteed Taiwan's safety. The dementia set in when we started courting PRC while guaranteeing ROC's sovereignty. Not sure why/how the mutual defense agreement with ROC lapsed, but it was during Carter's reign, IIRC. Since then, the implication has been pretty clear that we would, IMO. It just hadn't been an issue until Pooh and his sabre rattling and trying to recreate some long dead Chinese dynasty.

[Kathianne]

We have always guaranteed Taiwan's safety. The dementia set in when we started courting PRC while guaranteeing ROC's sovereignty. Not sure why/how the mutual defense agreement with ROC lapsed, but it was during Carter's reign, IIRC. Since then, the implication has been pretty clear that we would, IMO. It just hadn't been an issue until Pooh and his sabre rattling and trying to recreate some long dead Chinese dynasty.

I thought we pretty much settled on one China? I may have misunderstood

[Black Diamond]

Gunny I've been concerned about the strength of our military units given all this woke bullshit. Does China fear/respect us anymore?

[SassyLady]

Gunny I've been concerned about the strength of our military units given all this woke bullshit. Does China fear/respect us anymore?

Don't think so.

[Gunny]

I thought we pretty much settled on one China? I may have misunderstoodThat's the story. With caveats. It's one of those things that if pressed to explain with hard answers, I doubt they could.

As I touched on previously, a lot of this "policy" was created pre-Pooh when everybody knew Taiwan was there, but mostly an afterthought. China maintained its position, but didn't press the issue until Pooh came along.

IMO, we cannot allow China to invade Taiwan, with Taiwan's sovereignty being the smallest part of the can of worms that would be opened. It's another one of those things we got ourselves stuck with in the distant past and is coming back to bite us as World powers try to realign and recreate.

[Gunny]

@Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30) I've been concerned about the strength of our military units given all this woke bullshit. Does China fear/respect us anymore?Good question. More to the point, who fears our spineless politicians? Without going into his judgement, GWB was the last President we had anyone feared would drop the hammer.

Our military, best I can tell, is still there, mostly because of technology. It is however being undermined from within by current admin's lackey, racist, useless POS Lloyd Austin. In addition, Biden is handing out stores like candy to every Tom, Dick and Harry (not just Ukraine) without replenishing them. He's made us energy dependent on fair weather allies. The left's continued assault on US industry has left it ill-prepared to gear up for a war.

Call it a conspiracy theory if you want, but I believe by design. The situation is physical fact, regardless motive. However, I don't believe it to be circumstantial that most of the aforementioned degradation has come under one, corrupt President in name only's watch.

[Kathianne]

Good question. More to the point, who fears our spineless politicians? Without going into his judgement, GWB was the last President we had anyone feared would drop the hammer.

Our military, best I can tell, is still there, mostly because of technology. It is however being undermined from within by current admin's lackey, racist, useless POS Lloyd Austin. In addition, Biden is handing out stores like candy to every Tom, Dick and Harry (not just Ukraine) without replenishing them. He's made us energy dependent on fair weather allies. The left's continued assault on US industry has left it ill-prepared to gear up for a war.

Call it a conspiracy theory if you want, but I believe by design. The situation is physical fact, regardless motive. However, I don't believe it to be circumstantial that most of the aforementioned degradation has come under one, corrupt President in name only's watch.

Must not forget the strategic oil reserves depletion, coinciding with killing of oil industry in US.

[Gunny]

Must not forget the strategic oil reserves depletion, coinciding with killing of oil industry in US.I have not. Was included in "stores" :)

I've mentioned this before, where all of the previous hurts is immeasurably: We have the military to bang out an initial onslaught from China and dish out just as much if not more punishment. Both militaries would them been sitting rudderless in the ocean. The country that re-gears up first has the best chance to dominate the other.

China's industry is already geared up to supply its military. Ours is not. For us, that leaves the question can we hold out until we can? It would take at least 2 years to get to an industrial war footing. This isn't WWII. We live in world now of seconds and the enemy can reach us.

[Kathianne]

I have not. Was included in "stores" :)

I've mentioned this before, where all of the previous hurts is immeasurably: We have the military to bang out an initial onslaught from China and dish out just as much if not more punishment. Both militaries would them been sitting rudderless in the ocean. The country that re-gears up first has the best chance to dominate the other.

China's industry is already geared up to supply its military. Ours is not. For us, that leaves the question can we hold out until we can? It would take at least 2 years to get to an industrial war footing. This isn't WWII. We live in world now of seconds and the enemy can reach us.

True. Having trouble feeding our troops logistically in TX! How the hell would that work in broad war? Disgusting.

[Gunny]

True. Having trouble feeding our troops logistically in TX! How the hell would that work in broad war? Disgusting.I have to look into that specific further if I get a chance. My knee-jerk isn't a lack of food and supplies. Best first guess is they are being given to illegals at the expense of the troops.

Not as uncommon an event as you would think. On a humanitarian assist where they evacuate civilian personnel to ships, the civilians get everything and the troops get what's left out of an original supply based solely on troops.

[Kathianne]

Definitely not lack of food, but cooks.