Coulter demands Jews be "perfected"

[typomaniac]

If you've had any concerns about the right wing in the US being totally morally bankrupt as well as un-American, good ol' Ann has finally removed all doubt.


The conservative commentator said this week that the nation would be better off if all Americans were Christian and that she wants "Jews to be perfected, as they say."
...
"We just want Jews to be perfected, as they say," Coulter said later in the show. "That is what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express."

Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/national/main3358373.shtml?source=mostpop_story)

[darin]

She didn't "DEMAND" anything. And she's right. I think it shows her compassion. I think EVERYONE should convert to Christanity. :)

[Dilloduck]

She didn't "DEMAND" anything. And she's right. I think it shows her compassion. I think EVERYONE should convert to Christanity. :)

They might if someone could properly explain what it is.

[dan]

I think EVERYONE should convert to Christanity. :)

....and therein lies the problem with Christianity.

[hjmick]

....and therein lies the problem with Christianity.

...and just one of several problems with Islam.

[theHawk]

Yea, God forbid Christians would like to see everyone get into heaven.

[darin]

....and therein lies the problem with Christianity.

You don't get it Dan. That's the best PART of christanity. It's absolutely true. The teachings of Christ are accurate and the way to help people like you and me get to know our Creator.


:D

[typomaniac]

She didn't "DEMAND" anything. And she's right. I think it shows her compassion. I think EVERYONE should convert to Christanity. :)

You call it compassionate to bring religion into the arena of political discussion? I don't.

I call it an attempt to turn this nation into a "christian" version of Iran.

[Hagbard Celine]

...and just one of several problems with Islam.

Why can't we just go back to our European roots and worship nature, fertility and the female body?

[darin]

You call it compassionate to bring religion into the arena of political discussion? I don't.

I call it an attempt to turn this nation into a "christian" version of Iran.

Who was discussing politics? Ann believes (and every christian believes) she'd like to see EVERYONE a christian.

Muslims feel the same, except some want to kill you if you don't convert.

Your "logic" is horrendous. Should I edit your post, or are you sticking by your lie stating she "Demanded" jews convert?

[Hagbard Celine]

Who was discussing politics? Ann believes (and every christian believes) she'd like to see EVERYONE a christian.

Muslims feel the same, except some want to kill you if you don't convert.

Your "logic" is horrendous. Should I edit your post, or are you sticking by your lie stating she "Demanded" jews convert?

I don't think it's acceptable to talk the way Coulter did. I don't care about bringing religion into the political discussion, because religion is undeniably a vital part of the culture and of politics, but when someone in Coulter's position as a "respected" pundit (atleast by far right-wingers) comes out and says something as intolerant and antisemitic as this, it doesn't help the case for conservatism. It just gives ammunition to those on the left. To me it shows just how ignorant and bigoted "some people" can be.
I mean you can shout about "freedom of speech" all you want and you really can say anything you want in our country but I think the thing people forget is that some things shouldn't be said regardless. Sure you can say anti-semitic or racist things, but why would any quality person really want to?

[darin]

What's intolerant? She didn't say anything 'intolerant'. What's wrong with you people? lmao :)

[Hagbard Celine]

What's intolerant? She didn't say anything 'intolerant'. What's wrong with you people? lmao :)

So to you it doesn't show intolerance to say that the country would be better if all Jews converted to Christianity because their religion is "imperfect?" No wonder there is such a divide in this country. Half the population in incapable of understanding why everyone else isn't diving overboard to shed their ethnic identities to be just like them!

[darin]

So to you it doesn't show intolerance to say that the country would be better if all Jews converted to Christianity because their religion is "imperfect?" No wonder there is such a divide in this country. Half the population can't understand why everyone else isn't diving overboard to shed their ethnic identities to be just like them.

No. I can't see how a logical person would conclude otherwise.

If it's intolerant for a believer to wish OTHERS would come to belief, then Doctors are intolerant by wishing everyone who has cancer was cured.

Can anyone show where Coulter 'demanded' Jews convert, or have we all agreed typo's use of the subject like was to be deliberately misleading?

[PostmodernProphet]

So to you it doesn't show intolerance to say that the country would be better if all Jews converted to Christianity because their religion is "imperfect?" No wonder there is such a divide in this country. Half the population in incapable of understanding why everyone else isn't diving overboard to shed their ethnic identities to be just like them!

are you demonstrating intolerance when you assert that your opinion is more correct than that of Coulter?.......shouldn't you be saying that there is more than one path to the truth of intolerance?

[avatar4321]

this is it? this is all you have? come on...

[Hagbard Celine]

No. I can't see how a logical person would conclude otherwise.

If it's intolerant for a believer to wish OTHERS would come to belief, then Doctors are intolerant by wishing everyone who has cancer was cured.

Can anyone show were Coulter 'demanded' Jews convert, or have we all agreed typo's use of the subject like was to be deliberately misleading?

No. It's pretty univerally accepted that death is bad and that we should strive to stay alive. Therefore, cancer is an enemy. It's not intolerant of a doctor to wish that all cancer patients get cured. It is, however intolerant for a person to say that all members of a religion should convert to another religion. If you'll take a look around you'll see that there are over 6 billion people on Earth and not even a majority of them are Christian. You're not even close in assuming that Christianity is superior to any other religion. You know that feeling you have that Christianity is the only "right" religion? Well Jews have that same feeling about their religion and they'd no sooner convert to Christianity than you would convert to Islam. This same issue has come up before. When Muslims want to convert everybody in the world to Islam and put society under Shariah law, they are making the same assumption that Coulter and you have made: that their religion is superior. It's the same thing except now that Christianity is the religion being hailed as "perfect," you have no qualms in positing the Jews to abandon their beliefs in exchange for yours.

[Hagbard Celine]

are you demonstrating intolerance when you assert that your opinion is more correct than that of Coulter?.......shouldn't you be saying that there is more than one path to the truth of intolerance?

No way. I even said she and everybody else has the right to say whatever they want even if it is intolerant. But my question is: Should they? I don't think so. None of our pundits have any kind of self-restraint. It's all outrageous flashiness all the time. None of them ever say anything realistic, it's either extreme or it's not at all. It's like nobody cares about how they appear as long as their ratings are good. We've become a nation of sheep led by a corps of alarmist, extremist media spinmeisters who whore themselves out to corporate pimps.

[Monkeybone]

oh i see now....was a "what if" question that just got drug out. hate when that happens

[darin]

No. It's pretty univerally accepted that death is bad and that we should strive to stay alive. Therefore, cancer is an enemy. It's not intolerant of a doctor to wish that all cancer patients get cured. It is, however intolerant for a person to say that all members of a religion should convert to another religion. If you'll take a look around you'll see that there are over 6 billion people on Earth and not even a majority of them are Christian. You're not even close in assuming that Christianity is superior to any other religion. You know that feeling you have that Christianity is the only "right" religion? Well Jews have that same feeling about their religion and they'd no sooner convert to Christianity than you would convert to Islam. This same issue has come up before. When Muslims want to convert everybody in the world to Islam and put society under Shariah law, they are making the same assumption that Coulter and you have made: that their religion is superior. It's the same thing except now that Christianity is the religion being hailed as "perfect," you have no qualms in positing the Jews to abandon their beliefs in exchange for yours.

For the same reasons it's not intolerant to wish or hope unbelievers find God.

(shrug).

[Monkeybone]

No way. I even said she and everybody else has the right to say whatever they want even if it is intolerant. But my question is: Should they? I don't think so.

right to say whatever you wanna, but not the right to be a jerk?

[typomaniac]

Who was discussing politics? Ann believes (and every christian believes) she'd like to see EVERYONE a christian.
Even that absurdity doesn't go as far as what she implied: namely, that being a christian helps to make one "perfect," and that non-christians are therefore inherently flawed.
Your "logic" is horrendous. Should I edit your post, or are you sticking by your lie stating she "Demanded" jews convert?
If you don't want to agree that it was a demand, then at the very least it was a veiled threat.

Speaking of editing stuff, like my new av? :laugh2:

[Hagbard Celine]

For the same reasons it's not intolerant to wish or hope unbelievers find God.

(shrug).
That's what I'll say to you the next time you rail against Muslims for "invading Europe and spreading Shariah law." (shrug)

[Hagbard Celine]

right to say whatever you wanna, but not the right to be a jerk?

Didn't say that either. I think people should show self restraint. I don't think Black culture has any redeeming qualities, but I work with very nice, very educated Black people who I respect and I don't want to appear racist so you don't hear me screaming to whoever will listen that Blacks should abandon their culture and go shop at the Gap. Should we just be a nation of intolerant grumps who shout every grievance we have from the highest rooftops to whoever will listen no matter who it hurts just because we have the right to? Or should we show self restraint, take a different approach to our problems and have a little class in our day to day affairs? You tell me.

[darin]

That's what I'll say to you the next time you rail against Muslims for "invading Europe and spreading Shariah law." (shrug)

I've never railed against Muslims for "Invading Europe" I've railed against Muslims who want to kill those who don't convert.

Can we all at LEAST agree Typo's choice of words for the subject are horrible and deliberately misleading?

[PostmodernProphet]

But my question is: Should they? I don't think so

and what is the difference between that and a Christian saying "I don't think Muslims or Hindus should say what they believe"....actually, I think your statement is worse....the Christian is merely saying the Muslim and Hindu are wrong......

[Hagbard Celine]

I've never railed against Muslims for "Invading Europe" I've railed against Muslims who want to kill those who don't convert.

Can we all at LEAST agree Typo's choice of words for the subject are horrible and deliberately misleading?

Sure. She didn't "demand" anything. She did, however give us all a glimpse of the dark, scary nazi book-burning rally that is the inside of her mind.:dance:

[Monkeybone]

Didn't say that either. I think people should show self restraint. I don't think Black culture has any redeeming qualities, but I work with very nice, very educated Black people who I respect and I don't want to appear racist so you don't hear me screaming to whoever will listen that Blacks should abandon their culture and go shop at the Gap. Should we just be a nation of intolerant grumps who shout every greivance we have from the highest rooftops to whoever will listen no matter who it hurts just because we have the right to? Or should we show self restraint, take a different approach to our problems and have a little class in our day to day affairs? You tell me.

oh i agree with yah, was just seeing if that is what you meant. while showing restraint, i don't think at the same time we should allow ourselves to be door mats ( i know that ain't waht you saying, just throwing that in there)


and yes D, we agree. :cheers2: or atleast i do

[darin]

Sure. She (gave) us all a glimpse of the dark, scary nazi book-burning rally that is the inside of her mind.:dance:

you are demented and twisted if you draw those conclusions from what she said. Poor guy.

[Hagbard Celine]

you are demented and twisted if you draw those conclusions from what she said. Poor guy.

So I get the urge to kill every so often. Who doesn't? :dunno: :dance:

[darin]

So we've concluded Typo was being a tool by saying Coulter "Demanded" anything of the jews, right?

[Monkeybone]

So I get the urge to kill every so often. Who doesn't? :dunno: :dance:

i'm not alone!

[Hagbard Celine]

So we've concluded Typo was being a tool by saying Coulter "Demanded" anything of the jews, right?

She was being a full-on Carson Daly on that one.

[Dilloduck]

No way. I even said she and everybody else has the right to say whatever they want even if it is intolerant. But my question is: Should they? I don't think so. None of our pundits have any kind of self-restraint. It's all outrageous flashiness all the time. None of them ever say anything realistic, it's either extreme or it's not at all. It's like nobody cares about how they appear as long as their ratings are good. We've become a nation of sheep led by a corps of alarmist, extremist media spinmeisters who whore themselves out to corporate pimps.

I pretty much agree with that----Unless you have been officially coronated by the media (and all it entails), you really got to be extreme to get any attention.

[Hagbard Celine]

I pretty much agree with that----Unless you have been officially coronated by the media (and al lit entails), you really got to be extreme to get any attention.

I agree except that those coronated by the media are who I am talking about. Personalities like Coulter, Hannity, BOR, Limbaugh, etc. wear crowns. They're media royalty but they're all out of line all the time. They have high ratings because their audience expects to have and gets their faces blown-off by them every time they tune in. They do this by being extreme.

[gabosaurus]

Coulter is popular because she says what many conservatives think, but are afraid to say. Coulter makes radical, extremist statements because that is what gets her attention. It's like Britney Spears going out in public without underwear (by the way, she did it again-- http://www.thesuperficial.com ).

Religion is a lot like language. If God had not intended for there to be a lot of diverse religions, he would have not created all of them. Just like he did with the Tower of Babel.
Every religion believes they are right. The Muslims believe they are right. Fred Phelps thinks he is right.
I think all of them are right. For those who believe in them.

[Monkeybone]

how do you know that God created all religions and not humans? trying to fill a missing space inside of them?

and he created dif languages at the Tower....not religions

[stephanie]

Ann Coulter doesn't think or speak for me..

This is another made up OUTRAGE brought to you by...the free speech Nazis..

Better enjoy it while you have it...:poke:

[gabosaurus]

God created Earth and the universe. All religions believe in God, directly or indirectly.

[Hagbard Celine]

how do you know that God created all religions and not humans? trying to fill a missing space inside of them?

God created all languages so that we would never again be able to band together and build a tower to heaven. Didn't you notice what happened when we sent men to the moon? Ebonycs was born.

[Dilloduck]

I agree except that those coronated by the media are who I am talking about. Personalities like Coulter, Hannity, BOR, Limbaugh, etc. wear crowns. They're media royalty but they're all out of line all the time. They have high ratings because their audience expects to have and gets their faces blown-off by them every time they tune in. They do this by being extreme.

You don't include politicians in media royalty ? Odd. They've already basically picked out nominees for us.

[Hagbard Celine]

You don't include politicians in media royalty ? Odd. They've already basically picked out nominees for us.

Yep, if the media is any indicator, it'll be a Romney vs. Clinton campaign year.

[Dilloduck]

Yep, if the media is any indicator, it'll be a Romney vs. Clinton campaign year.

naaa they like Gulianni much better. It's Hillary all the way any way so we may as well all start adjusting.

[eighballsidepocket]

If you've had any concerns about the right wing in the US being totally morally bankrupt as well as un-American, good ol' Ann has finally removed all doubt.



Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/national/main3358373.shtml?source=mostpop_story)

Typo:

I find your vernacular and your wording of your posts..i.e. your debate with Sir Evil to reveal a great deal of fore-thought, and organized thinking when you post. I totally enjoyed your debate, but did lean towards Sir Evil in my vote, though. Never the less, I respect your belief and your compassion.
I respect your stand. It is trully a wonderful country that we live in. :)
*****
However (You knew this was coming :) ), I have to disagree with your "take" on the Ann Coulter position that you presented, yet I do have my critiques of her too.

I am a full fledged, bible Christian. I've led bible studies, attended a non-denominational bible College ( dropped out due to economic and medical considerations for my family/wife/children), worked for many years in heavy, electrical Construction in the S.F. bay area, and now am retired due to medical reasons, yet I'm pretty close to normal retirement age, anyway.

Never the less, I am still a devoted Christian man, husband, and father to my now three married sons, our daughter in laws, and our 4 grand children.

I now attend a very structured bible study, called BSF or Bible Study Fellowship, that is non-denominational; meaning that there are Christians attending it from all the churches..i.e. Catholic, Episcopal, Reformed Protestant, Non denominational, and also non church going Christians too.

This study goes from September to June of the following year, and is very structured, which is something I really need in my life as a bible believing Christian.

The benefits of this BSF study is that I've been able to meet folks from every denomination and non-denomination that you can think of. I've made many friends, and learned that Christians are not unlike the colors of alley cats. We come in all kinds of packaging. We all have different personalities, and some clash and some don't. Overall, the Spirit of God within this whole gamut of Christians from varying areas of life, seems to make us a peaceable lot. One fellow in my group is Cambodian, and his parents sent him to America while he was a very young man, along with his sister. His sister went back to Cambodia, but he stayed in America. His Mom, Dad, and sis, were killed by the Pol Pot Regime while he stayed in America. They were killed because they were Christians.

Anyway, that aside, us U.S. Christians don't realize or have not really had to face the oppression that can come with the Christian faith, as many have endured in other parts of the world. We have a very sympathetic, and easy going populous that is quite tolerant. Thanks to the U.S. Constitution.

Ann Coulter:
I was tuned into Michael Savage yesterday as I drove home from some shopping, and he was really worked-up over Ann Coulter's comments. I actually heard the recording of her interview, and I was quite surprised at her comments. Michael Savage is a Jew, by the way.

As a Christian, my desire is for the whole world to know Christ as their personal Saviour. I'm also a realist, and know that this is "pie in the sky" but I do know that many millions will convert to Christianity from atheistic, agnostic, and many religious sects. It has been happening for years, as evangelical missionaries are all over the world, supported by local churches that exist in mostly the Western cultured world. England was a great sending nation, but now is in dire need of missionaries to come back to them, as most of the churches of England and even France are like empty mausoleums on Sundays. Secular humanism/Votairism greatly changed the Christian influence in Europe.

Christians can put on two-sided clap boards and stand on street corners and print bible verses on the clap boards, with John 3:16, and "Your going to hell if you don't repent!" printed on the other side. These folks may think they are a pseudo, "John the Baptists" and are "voices in the wind", bringing God's gospel to the unsaved masses. Sadly, this type of evangelism in many ways, turns-off the masses, as it puts Christians in some types of light, that make us out to be loonies, or judgemental by those that aren't true converted,Christians.

Ann's comments that Jews live by rules, and Christians don't but by grace, was basically her premise. She was in essence stating that Christ fullfilled the Judaic Law, of do's and don'ts in order to be acceptable to God; that was part and partial of the Jewish faith. She was saying that Christians, don't live by the Law anymore, but live by grace or unmerited favor through Christ's fullfilling of the demands of Judaic Law through His receiving humanity's judgement for failing to fullfill God's law. Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. = Even Ann Coulter! The bible says whether we know it or not, we are all in need of redemption or reconciliation with God. Ann's premise was that Jews still contend with living by the Law, and the myriads of laws that they added to the Mosaic laws, in order to be at peace with God. This peace with God is a yearly thing too, as the Jews would place their nation's and their personal sins against God, vicariously upon an unblemished lamb, and then sacrifice that lamb. It was part of the regulations handed down through the Mosaic system. I doubt that this custom is fully understood by all Jews nowadays, except for the more legalistic, Hasidic Jews or practicing Jews.

A Messiah that would come and take the sins of a people away for eternity was promised in the O.T.. Christians believe that the Jesus of the New Testament was the fullfilling of the numerous prophecys found throughout the O.T.. To this day, most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, but are still hoping or waiting for that redemptive Messiah to come. Until then, they sacrifice, and follow their faith in a state of hope.

Ann Coulter, I believe faltered in the way she addressed this issue or difference between the Jewish faith and the Christian faith. I felt that she was extremely judgemental in the way she voiced the difference. I agree with her premise, but not her approach.

Jesus came to save, and not to judge. His second coming will be different. Right now, we, as Christians are called to a gospel of reconciliation. Some Christians interpret this to mean, that "Anything can be said as long as it's from the scripture or supports scripture.". In other words, it's ok to lower the "boom" on non Christians, and come off hard and judgemental, and that's not the Christian's/messenger's problem, but the one receiving the "Godly"/"Scriptural" message. I call this the Gattling Gun approach. In other words, you spin the old lever and let the words of God fly, and if they make a good hit, then that's fine, and if those words hurt some folks or maim them, then that's not "my" fault, cause I'm a Christian and I'm serving God and fullfilling the Great Commission.
:(

I don't know where Ann Coulter stands as a Christian. She may be very well versed in the bible or she may be very limited. Also she may be very carnal, and not actually allowing Gods Holy Spirit to reign in her life. I think the latter may be the case, sadly.

Personally, when I heard her comments about Jews and Judaism, I was very saddened. I think that she blackened Jesus's eye, and the Christian faith, with her comments. She portrayed to many that are already very skeptical and ready to find fault with bible Christians' and gave them unneeded fodder to hurt the Body of Christ as a whole.

Her comments lacked compassion, and were said in a "matter of fact" way, with little comment to amend or explain the "why" of what she said. She simply said it in a way that told the Jewish American populous that they are "almost saved, but not quite". In other words, they were told that they are 4/5ths to Christianity.

What a sad scenario! :(

Jesus's ministry did bring a division, but he didn't come off as aloof, but compassionately tried to reason, and explain how His ministry was for Jews and gentiles alike.

Christians have a very strong tie to Israel and the Jewish faith. Afterall, our founder, Jesus Christ was a Jew and was still a Jew, before His crucifixion and after with His ressurrection, and ascension to be seated at the Right Hand of the Father in Heaven.

Jesus first brought his message of redemption to the Jews, or His countrymen, and then the message went to the gentile nations as the Jewish nation and countrymen basically rejected (not all) Him and His message as prophesied in the bible.

Anyway, I can't defend Ann Coulter on this one. I know that she's gotten a lot of flak for standing with conservative causes. She's been "pie-d" in the face at college speech engagements, and has been called all kinds of names..etc.. Much of those monikers were very vitreolic, but she has also thrown some pretty tough stuff at the liberal movement, and individuals within it, too.

She's a tough woman; willing to take the flak, but her latest comments as a Christian spokeswoman were not seasoned with wisdom or fore-thought, and hurt biblical Christians and Christianity more than it helped. It also drove a wedge between Jews and Christians in our country.

Typo:

I wish you and others would try to distinguish between those that blunder and say, "thus sayeth the Lord" and bring such animosity and those that quietly live their lives out ala Mother Teresa, or are helping in orphanages, or Christian Mission Soup kitchens in inner citys, and so many others that are raising their kids to live a life of good ethics, and strong biblical foundation, undergirded with love and not judgmentalism.

Christianity does not equal Conservatism or Republicanism.

Biblical truths due often harmonize with many of the tenents of American Conservatism, and that philosophy has attached itself to the Republican party, but not in total.

Remember that true Christianity is not a political philosophy, but a life based on a supernatural faith, based on a 2,000 + year foundation of scriptures.

Sadly, those that have some burr in their flesh or soul concerning the bible or Christianity, seem to pick out examples (Ann Coulters) of Christianity that don't reflect the mainstream, and then use it to hurt all Christians or turn the world or the populous against Christians.

Many Christians maybe conservative, but they are Christians first, and political party members secondly: if they are trully living or abiding scripturally in their faith.

Personally, I believe that the Republican party has moved more and more away from Christian values, as reflected in most of the front running candidate's positions.

Most likely, Hillary will become are first female President. I will bare with her tenure, and see what comes of our country. I will not leave my country or go to a shrink to assuage my dissapointment. I will continue to obey my government, as long as it does not obviscate or override God's moral laws/ethics. The bible says that God raises leaders and nations and also brings down nations and leaders. He often allows some leaders to arise as a result of chastising a nation of people. Just read the O.T., and you see a nation that had good leaders, average leaders, and very bad leaders. When that nation stayed close to God, and didn't fall into pagan or secular devotion, they were materially, and securely blessed. Wars and rumors of wars lessened.

Politics are cyclical. Sometimes we must accept that someone with such divergent philosophy from our own will reign supreme for awhile. If Hillary's philosophy of government is of God, then He will sustain her and give her back-to-back terms and will allow more with her philosophical view to be commander and chiefs. If God wants, she will be a one-termer, or will fade into history along with her philosophies.

No one expected the implosion of the USSR back in the 80's. God establishes nations, and brings them down. The USSR had all the essentials to lead and guide it's people in reverence to God, but instead, worshiped humanism. They got about 60+ years to come around, and they didn't. Now we have no, USSR.

Israel showed (1948)up again on the maps after nearly 2,000 years of non-existence as a nation. It was all prophesied in the bible.

Typo: Please don't gauge the average biblical Christian on Ann Coulter, as it is a real slap in the face to devoted, God loving folks that have helped make this and many other nations of the world better places to live. People like Michael Faraday ( inventor of the electric motor/generator), Washington Carver, George Washington, Abe Lincoln, Sir Isaac Newton, and so many others have contributed so much to humanity, yet they believed in a Creator, and in Christ as His Son.

Ann Coulter needs to be reigned-in when she delves or dives into Christian theology in such a flippant, unthinking way.

She indeed turned off a lot of people of Jewish persuasion and faith that might that have had no "bones" to pick with Christianity. She actually ressurrected a Crusader's mentality with her comments.

[typomaniac]

8ball:

Thank you for taking so much time out to explain your faith and your take on Ann Coulter.

I want to assure you that I have for many years understood the huge difference between (in your words) the "average biblical Christian" and people like Coulter and Fred Phelps - who have correctly been called things like hypocrites and wolves in sheeps' clothing. Sadly, this board has quite a few of the latter. (And probably at least a few of the former, happily.)

I also agree with what you implied about how living out one's life quietly in the service of others on behalf of you faith is the best way to be a truly religious person.

[Abbey Marie]

8ball:

Thank you for taking so much time out to explain your faith and your take on Ann Coulter.

I want to assure you that I have for many years understood the huge difference between (in your words) the "average biblical Christian" and people like Coulter and Fred Phelps - who have correctly been called things like hypocrites and wolves in sheeps' clothing. Sadly, this board has quite a few of the latter. (And probably at least a few of the former, happily.)

I also agree with what you implied about how living out one's life quietly in the service of others on behalf of you faith is the best way to be a truly religious person.

Very nice of you, Eight, to take the time to say all of that. There are lots of pearls of wisdom in your post.

Typo: I am glad that you have said that you understand that all Christians should not be judged by the few. But you must also realize that by you and others continually making examples of Christians who choose their words poorly, or sin in other ways, you appear to not really understand that very concept.

[typomaniac]

Typo: I am glad that you have said that you understand that all Christians should not be judged by the few. But you must also realize that by you and others continually making examples of Christians who choose their words poorly, or sin in other ways, you appear to not really understand that very concept.

Just because I don't always practice what I preach doesn't mean that I don't understand what I preach. :dev:

[April15]

If you've had any concerns about the right wing in the US being totally morally bankrupt as well as un-American, good ol' Ann has finally removed all doubt.



Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/national/main3358373.shtml?source=mostpop_story)
And what can you expect from a person that calls Liberals godless and Joe McCarthy an American hero? She has just upped her Shock and Awe routine.

[Guernicaa]

Yea, God forbid Christians would like to see everyone get into heaven.
lol "get into heaven"....As far as I'm concerned, without any proof to back up their claims (only stories that provide faith), saying that there is a certain "criteria" for getting into an after life is foolish and retarded.
It's equivlant to anything the Egyptians, Babylonians, or Ancient Greeks said about their religion. Pure mythology at its best.

[Dilloduck]

She was being a full-on Carson Daly on that one.

I think so too. Both "camps" pretend to ignore the attempt at humor or sarcasm when made by the other camp. Gotta love politics. :laugh2:

[eighballsidepocket]

8ball:

Thank you for taking so much time out to explain your faith and your take on Ann Coulter.

I want to assure you that I have for many years understood the huge difference between (in your words) the "average biblical Christian" and people like Coulter and Fred Phelps - who have correctly been called things like hypocrites and wolves in sheeps' clothing. Sadly, this board has quite a few of the latter. (And probably at least a few of the former, happily.)

I also agree with what you implied about how living out one's life quietly in the service of others on behalf of you faith is the best way to be a truly religious person.

Thank you for clarifying your stance , and for your very respectful and understanding, response to my reply.

[diuretic]

As April15 pointed out, Coulter is just upping the dose because the lower doses are ceasing to work. People are so used to the rubbish that flows from her that she has to increasingly become more shrill and use more invective and - oh so daring statements - to shock everyone into noticing she's still around. She's not to be taken seriously, it's just her schtick.

[manu1959]

If you've had any concerns about the right wing in the US being totally morally bankrupt as well as un-American, good ol' Ann has finally removed all doubt.
Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/national/main3358373.shtml?source=mostpop_story)

didn't know she had been corronated spokesperson for everyone on the right......good to know

[Yurt]

If you've had any concerns about the right wing in the US being totally morally bankrupt as well as un-American, good ol' Ann has finally removed all doubt.

The conservative commentator said this week that the nation would be better off if all Americans were Christian and that she wants "Jews to be perfected, as they say."
...
"We just want Jews to be perfected, as they say," Coulter said later in the show. "That is what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express."

Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/national/main3358373.shtml?source=mostpop_story)


Have ye lost yer wee mind?

So Ann represents the "entire" wing of this right party?

And somehow what she says makes the entire group morally bankrupt and you gotta LOVE this, UN-American.

WTF has one person's comments about their personal views on religion have to do with anything you just smeared your arse about?

:cool:

[retiredman]

Have ye lost yer wee mind?

So Ann represents the "entire" wing of this right party?

And somehow what she says makes the entire group morally bankrupt and you gotta LOVE this, UN-American.

WTF has one person's comments about their personal views on religion have to do with anything you just smeared your arse about?

:cool:

and we should expect to see your denunciation of her remarks sometime soon?

[Yurt]

and we should expect to see your denunciation of her remarks sometime soon?

Why? Are you also dense and think that I alone represent an entire group, religion and country? You are queer one. You rag on about how we should all have our opinion, yet, this one lady has an opinion and you act like you had the worst burrito of your life.

[retiredman]

do you never applaud Ann for her opinions?

[Abbey Marie]

Just because I don't always practice what I preach doesn't mean that I don't understand what I preach. :dev:

Fair enough. Rep for that. :salute:

Edited to add: System won't let me rep you now; I'll have to catch you later.

[Yurt]

do you never applaud Ann for her opinions?

Howz that burrito sitting?

[LuvRPgrl]

....and therein lies the problem with Christianity.


Jesus was the first one to say it, so you got a problem with Him?

[diuretic]

So Coulter would want Jesus to be a Christian and not a Jew because as a Jew He wasn't perfect?

[LuvRPgrl]

Very nice of you, Eight, to take the time to say all of that. There are lots of pearls of wisdom in your post.

Typo: I am glad that you have said that you understand that all Christians should not be judged by the few. But you must also realize that by you and others continually making examples of Christians who choose their words poorly, or sin in other ways, you appear to not really understand that very concept.

Its truly amazing how many mis conceptions people have about Christianity.
I was watching History channel about the hillbillies. They were showing the Christian snake handlers, and this one guy was bitten and died from it, and he had been bitten many times.
THe guy who was tellling us about it said (paraphrased) "certainly he went to heaven cuz being bitten so many times he showed how obidient he was to God"

Im really tired of non believers telling Christians how to practice their faith and calling them hypocrites.

First, for many Christians its just an honest misunderstanding of the scriptures if they are in fact not practicing it properly.

second, if a person isnt behaving 100% Christ like, then let him who can walk on water cast the first stone.

Third, most people dont even know what the word hypocrite really means.

Fourth, liberals greatly distort the Bible, a prime example is when they protest the death penalty and hold signs saying "thou shalt not kill", when in fact it is "thou shalt no MURDER".

[LuvRPgrl]

So Coulter would want Jesus to be a Christian and not a Jew because as a Jew He wasn't perfect?

That has to be one of the most idiotic statements ever, EVER, in history.

Jesus name is JESUS, no CHRIST.

CHRIST is a title.

Jesus is/was the Christ.

CHRISTians are those who BELIEVE and follow the words of Jesus the CHRIST.

You think Jesus didnt believe and follow His own words?

[diuretic]

That has to be one of the most idiotic statements ever, EVER, in history.

Jesus name is JESUS, no CHRIST.

CHRIST is a title.

Jesus is/was the Christ.

CHRISTians are those who BELIEVE and follow the words of Jesus the CHRIST.

You think Jesus didnt believe and follow His own words?

I know Jesus wasn't a Christian.

[LuvRPgrl]

I know Jesus wasn't a Christian.

????????????????????????????????????

[diuretic]

????????????????????????????????????

Why the ???'

[Yurt]

Why the ???'

Because you are playing the semantics game :D

[typomaniac]

Have ye lost yer wee mind?

So Ann represents the "entire" wing of this right party?

And somehow what she says makes the entire group morally bankrupt and you gotta LOVE this, UN-American.

WTF has one person's comments about their personal views on religion have to do with anything you just smeared your arse about?

:cool:

Sounds like you're doing a bible-thumping version of Mike Myers' "Fat Bastard" character. Guid job, ma wee bairn! :)

http://a2.vox.com/6a00b8ea06ece0dece00c2251c31a2549d-500pi

[typomaniac]

That has to be one of the most idiotic statements ever, EVER, in history.

Jesus name is JESUS, no CHRIST.

CHRIST is a title.

Jesus is/was the Christ.

CHRISTians are those who BELIEVE and follow the words of Jesus the CHRIST.

You think Jesus didnt believe and follow His own words?

Rather a moot point, since Coulter doesn't seem to worship anything but money and attention.

[actsnoblemartin]

I am perfect thank you (JOKE)

[Yurt]

Sounds like you're doing a bible-thumping version of Mike Myers' "Fat Bastard" character. Guid job, ma wee bairn! :)

http://a2.vox.com/6a00b8ea06ece0dece00c2251c31a2549d-500pi


:lmao::lmao:

Tis true, plus I just read me an irish book and the paralegal I used to work with with is full blooded Irish. Oh, and my uncle is Irish and last saint paddy's we were in thousand oaks and saw this great irish play/musical/dance at the convention center (famous one, can't remember the name, but awesome) and I loved it. Love the way the irish talk, just love it. Cracks me up.

Make sure yuz get yer luuucky charms now......

[diuretic]

Because you are playing the semantics game :D

It looks like it but it isn't :coffee:

[Yurt]

It looks like it but it isn't :coffee:

Wipe off the fog on your screen my aussie friend.....:D

[diuretic]

Wipe off the fog on your screen my aussie friend.....:D

No fog here, nice sunny day and I have to get out there into it shortly.

I do know that Jesus was born a Jew. I'm wondering if Coulter caught up with that news. :cool:

Ah but the skanky bitch probably didn't even engage what passes for her brain before opening her poisoned mouth. Just another can of inflammable material to toss on the flames of prejudice with which she uses to warm herself up. Jews have a right to be very annoyed with the cow. :laugh2:

[eighballsidepocket]

No fog here, nice sunny day and I have to get out there into it shortly.

I do know that Jesus was born a Jew. I'm wondering if Coulter caught up with that news. :cool:

Ah but the skanky bitch probably didn't even engage what passes for her brain before opening her poisoned mouth. Just another can of inflammable material to toss on the flames of prejudice with which she uses to warm herself up. Jews have a right to be very annoyed with the cow. :laugh2:

I think the question or discussion of lately here, is not Jesus's nationality as being born a Jew, but of the faith of Judaism. :)

Many people in the O.T. were brought into Judaism that were not from the original 12 tribes via being proselytes.

There is being Jewish by nationality, and there is being a Jew by faith, too.

Paul the apostle of Jesus, explained in his Romans book that being Jewish was more or beyond being born in the nation, but was of the "heart". Paul talked about how the Jews distinguished themselves via circumcision, yet he said the the true "Jew" was not circumcized with men's hands but was circumcized in their hearts via God's work of His Spirit (Holy Spirit). So in there is in essence a Spiritual, and a national Jew.

God's circumcision was His internal, Spiritual work in both a Jew's or Gentile's hearts (souls) that set them apart or sanctified them as a result of those person's repentance and turning to God's Son in faith.

So yes, Jesus was a Jew by nationality, yet Paul said later that both Jews and Gentiles that were saved/converted or brought to salvation via God's supernatural work were all Jews in a spiritual sense. Paul even metaphorically used the domestic olive tree and the wild olive tree to explain that the Jews were the original olive tree and that God had taken the gentiles or the wild olive and grafted it into the root-stock of the domestic olive. Of course the root stock is metaphorically, Christ, who feeds/supplies both sides of the tree. The domestic and wild branches were lovingly, given sustenance or His life in order that they would produce "good" fruit that glorifies Him (God).

[Kathianne]

I think the question or discussion of lately here, is not Jesus's nationality as being born a Jew, but of the faith of Judaism. :)

Many people in the O.T. were brought into Judaism that were not from the original 12 tribes via being proselytes.

There is being Jewish by nationality, and there is being a Jew by faith, too.

Paul the apostle of Jesus, explained in his Romans book that being Jewish was more or beyond being born in the nation, but was of the "heart". Paul talked about how the Jews distinguished themselves via circumcision, yet he said the the true "Jew" was not circumcized with men's hands but was circumcized in their hearts via God's work of His Spirit (Holy Spirit). So in there is in essence a Spiritual, and a national Jew.

God's circumcision was His internal, Spiritual work in both a Jew's or Gentile's hearts (souls) that set them apart or sanctified them as a result of those person's repentance and turning to God's Son in faith.

So yes, Jesus was a Jew by nationality, yet Paul said later that both Jews and Gentiles that were saved/converted or brought to salvation via God's supernatural work were all Jews in a spiritual sense. Paul even metaphorically used the domestic olive tree and the wild olive tree to explain that the Jews were the original olive tree and that God had taken the gentiles or the wild olive and grafted it into the root-stock of the domestic olive. Of course the root stock is metaphorically, Christ, who feeds/supplies both sides of the tree. The domestic and wild branches were lovingly, given sustenance or His life in order that they would produce "good" fruit that glorifies Him (God).

Forgive me for jumping in here, but my understanding was Jesus was a Jew, right up until the Crucifixtion. The followers of Christ, the Christians, of which Paul was one followed his teachings. His teachings revealed what had been promised with the original covenant, but where fulfilled by the Christ, which made the New Covenant.

[Hugh Lincoln]

I have a great idea for a new religion.

We will worship Jews. Our god will be the Jewish people. We will put all our faith in Jews. We will fear them. We will love them as the almighty creators of the universe. No Jesus. No Buddha. No Mohammad. Just the Jews. The new god.

Who's in?

[eighballsidepocket]

Forgive me for jumping in here, but my understanding was Jesus was a Jew, right up until the Crucifixtion. The followers of Christ, the Christians, of which Paul was one followed his teachings. His teachings revealed what had been promised with the original covenant, but where fulfilled by the Christ, which made the New Covenant.

Sounds, "dead on, correct" to me. :)

[diuretic]

Did Jesus become a Christian when John baptised him? I don't know so I'm asking if the baptism was a sort of ritual where Jesus left his Judaism and began his Christianity. I'm not asking that well but I know what I mean :cool:

[Kathianne]

Did Jesus become a Christian when John baptised him? I don't know so I'm asking if the baptism was a sort of ritual where Jesus left his Judaism and began his Christianity. I'm not asking that well but I know what I mean :cool:

No, at least as I understand it. Jesus was and remained a Jew, in fulfillment of Scripture. His followers are the 'Christians.'

[bluestatesrule]

The right wingers are always talking about our "kook base" when are they going to realize they have a kook base of their own. I hope Ann Coulter keeps doing what she does...and they is finally exposed for what she really is. I'll let you figure that one out. People like Ann Coulter seek only to attack and belittle people....not build this country up!

[diuretic]

No, at least as I understand it. Jesus was and remained a Jew, in fulfillment of Scripture. His followers are the 'Christians.'

I see Kathianne, thanks.

Now I'm going to be wondering why some of His followers are down on Jews.

[Kathianne]

I see Kathianne, thanks.

Now I'm going to be wondering why some of His followers are down on Jews.

Um, you and me both.

[mrg666]

I see Kathianne, thanks.

Now I'm going to be wondering why some of His followers are down on Jews.

even the romans converted to christianity

[eighballsidepocket]

No, at least as I understand it. Jesus was and remained a Jew, in fulfillment of Scripture. His followers are the 'Christians.'

Kathianne: Once again, "dead on"........exactly in my humble opinion IMHO. :)

I believe Christian means "Christ one's" or followers of Christ. So naturally Jesus wouldn't be a Christ One as He is the, "Christ", "Son of God", "Messiah", "Yahweh", "I AM".. etc..

I think we are stumbling over semantics here. :)
*********
People say, "Jesus was a good guy, and He said good things, and was very wise, but, that's as far as I will commit myself.". In other words we hold a stiff outstretched arm and hand in His direction and basically say, "close enough, come no further!". Jesus, you make me uncomfortable. If I embrace You, You turn my life upside down. You will dash my dreams, goals, and I will lose or alienate my friends, and desires to be "me" my way. Well, thats the lie that old Fuzzy Nose (Lucifer) wants us all to abide in. As he said to Eve in the Garden. You can be like God, you don't have to be subservient to Him. Go take the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of God and Evil. It won't hurt, and you'll be just like Him. Satan, fed into your very natures of desire to be at the helm of our own lives, and not in subjection or authority of anyone. So the fruit allowed us to lose are innocence, and indeed we do know the difference between good and evil (Romans Chapter 1). Unfortunately, we handed ourselves a hot potato. We don't know how to handle this knowledge on our own. So with man's skewed nature and propensity to sin, He stumbles from generation to generation, looking in gopher holes and dead end streets of life, trying to fill a vacu-ous, spiritual hole that only God can fill with His perfect, loving, forgiving, gracious life. It only requires a true willful act of accepting His Lordship, and authority, and provision for the eradication of our sinful nature through His Son to change this.

Being a Christian isn't because Mom and Pop were Christians, you go to church, were dunked or sprinkled with water in baptism, do charitable/loving works, live a humble life, take Communion, are a deacon/elder, volunteer at church, etc..

It is an inward supernatural change in a human's most innermost soul in our "heart", done by God, with man's cooperation, or man's free will to choose or reject God's grace (unmerited favor) through His Son's finished work on the cross.

John the Baptist came with the baptism of repentance, that prepared the Jews that were willing or ready to accept, or "own" their sins, and sinful nature from the Adamic fall of their earliest human lineage.

That's why when Jesus showed up at the Jordan, John said said, "behold the Lamb of God". John didn't want to baptise Jesus, but Jesus insisted that he do it to fullfill scripture. Was Jesus baptised because He needed to repent of sins too? No. His baptism was the official annointing of His Priestly ministry to the human race, starting with the Jewish Nation, and then to the gentiles.

You will find that the Jews did not accept baptism for themselves, but required it of gentile converts to Judaism, as the Jews did not feel that they need this ceremonial cleansing, as they were alread on the "in" with God, but the "pagan" gentiles needed this water cleansing to gain entry as a proselytized Jew.

So John's Baptism was a real slap in the face to the average Jew of that time back 2,000 years ago. Those that allowed John the Baptist to baptize them were humbly accepting personal accountability for their sinfulness, and also their fallen state before their God/Yahweh. That's why John saw some Pharisees and Saducee's watching the baptising going on and called them a brood of vipers. These religious men and scribes were self deluded into thinking that they required zero repentance, and were totally accepted by God on the merit of their deeds, minus an inward change of heart.

Christian baptism is not for repentance, but is done after one is converted or becomes a true Christian. It is a ceremonial act of indentification with Christ's life in one's own life.

Remember that John said with that He/Jesus was increase, and he/John must decrease. John's ministry was coming to an end. John prepared the world for the coming Saviour by preparing mankind's heart through repentance and regret. Jesus supplied the answer once the human heart was contrite with repentance, through his life giving life. That's why Paul the Apostle said, that He as a believer was "Crucified with Christ, and the life he/Paul now lived was a new life, and the old life of sin, and the sinful nature was left buried in the grave at Golgotha. (Galatians 2:20) Every true Christian has Spiritually been crucified with Christ and raised up with Christ in newness of life. True Christians still are fully human, and can still sin, but the need or pull to sin is being gradually made less inviting as the Christian immerses him/herself in God's wisdom and truth through, meditation and study of the Holy scriptures.

Keep in mind that a true Christian is not without the capacity to sin, but if they are abiding or seeking to walk a closer Spiritual walk with God, their lives will reveal a lessening of committed sin. Worldly activities of seeking indentity in created things in disregard to their Creator's satisfaction of their lives by true Christians, will bring only inner struggle and disappointment, typified by a lack of inner peace and satisfaction of life.

This has been the great stumbling block of Jesus's life to humanity for thousands of years. People have the hardest time coping with a God that required devotion, and also accepts our failings and sin, and still loves us, if we will acknowledge that His Son is the propitiation for our sins and sinful nature. It seems simplistic, yet the most intellectual of the human race, stumble over this.

Why do they/we stumble over God's very simple plan of salvation? Because it involves man giving up something very cherished to him/herself. Pride, self-determined destiny, indentity of life in worldly possessions, status (atta boys/girls), education, reputation, etc..

Turning the other cheek means a lot more than taking an unanswered, fist-shot to the face. It means, not having to defend yourself out of pride, embarrassment, anger, weakness, strength.........and so much more. It means an acknowledgement that there is One greater than ourselves that is actually in control, though it may not appear-so in our miniscule human insight.

Solomon, one of King David's sons, was asked by God what he wanted. He could have had all the riches of the world, but Solomon, asked for "wisdom". God said that because of this humble request, He/God would not only gift Solomon and make him the wisest of men of his time, but he would also give him great power and riches as king of Israel. Solomon's life as king florished greatly, but he gradually let all the riches and power take his eyes off (go to his head, Pride) of the Giver of all that he had. He fell into Polygamy, married a Pagan queen, and even allowed pagan idolatry into Israel. Solomon came to his senses near the time of his death and wrote Ecclesiastes. In that famous O.T. book, Solomon's most famous word repeated over and over again is "vanity, vanity, vanity".

Riches, the world, great power, position, education, reputation; all of those desperate human needs he described as "Vanity, Vanity, Vanity". Vanity = Hot Air. In other words, all this pursuing of this and that, and having to have this or that in order to "be" was vanity, vanity, vanity........"hot air". It was nothingness and nonsense to God, and totally unworthy of what our lives were intended to be in God's economy.

God didn't or doesn't knock education or good paying jobs or having authority as an employer or boss, but it must all be kept in perspective. It doesn't bring spiritual depravity, if all who have this or that realize that it is all a gift of God, not unlike the fact (gift) that our heart continues to beat every minute/hour/day/year without stopping, and we have food to eat, a roof over our heads, a spouse, children or grand children, close friends, a nation with incredible security/liberty to it's citizens......

Until God is allowed to be who He is in a human's life, He will be speculated about, critiqued, philosophised, rejected, pandered too, politicized, and used for phony gain, etc..

[diuretic]

even the romans converted to christianity

They did but from memory it was Constantine that ordered it I think and I seem to remember that was after the breakup of the Roman Empire and his authority was in the Eastern part of the empire or something like that. I'd have to look it up but you're quite right. But then again if I remember rightly there was the big split - was it after the Council of Nicenae or something? Again I'd have to drag out the history books.

[Immanuel]

Now I'm going to be wondering why some of His followers are down on Jews.

Been trying to figure that one out for a long time myself.

I wonder if it is because the Jewish people killed Christ... but then my own belief teaches me that Christ gave himself up as a sacrifice for our sins, so in fact, the Jewish people were not alone in this endeavour and in reality the only one that killed Christ was Christ himself.

Immie

[diuretic]

Been trying to figure that one out for a long time myself.

I wonder if it is because the Jewish people killed Christ... but then my own belief teaches me that Christ gave himself up as a sacrifice for our sins, so in fact, the Jewish people were not alone in this endeavour and in reality the only one that killed Christ was Christ himself.

Immie

When I was a kid I remember vaguely the idea (I was baptised Roman Catholic and attended Roman Catholic primary schools) being floated around that Jews were bad because they killed Christ. But I also remember the Romans had a hand in it too, despite Pilate's apparent disinterest, he could have done something but he didn't. But even as a kid it still struck me that it was pre-determined (although I wouldn't have put it that way then).

There were times back then that I thought that perhaps Jesus wasn't aware of His destiny, that God - although Jesus was God made man - had somehow removed that knowledge from the man Jesus, so that He (Jesus) would seek his destiny without really knowing what it was but gradually finding out that He was to die for the sake of humankind. The whole sacrifical thing resonated with me from the Old Testament into the New Testament and I found it quite disturbing that Jesus should be treated in that manner. I remember thinking it was terribly cruel but I was assured it was done from love. For a kid that's a lot of confusing stuff.

But I also remember thinking that blaming the Jews for the acts of a few elites, who were collaborators with the Roman occupiers and who felt threatened by Jesus and his followers was a bit stupid.

In Coulter's case, where she's adopted this idea of Jews not being as good as Christians, she displays herself as a pretty poor Christian.

[Immanuel]

When I was a kid I remember vaguely the idea (I was baptised Roman Catholic and attended Roman Catholic primary schools) being floated around that Jews were bad because they killed Christ. But I also remember the Romans had a hand in it too, despite Pilate's apparent disinterest, he could have done something but he didn't. But even as a kid it still struck me that it was pre-determined (although I wouldn't have put it that way then).

There were times back then that I thought that perhaps Jesus wasn't aware of His destiny, that God - although Jesus was God made man - had somehow removed that knowledge from the man Jesus, so that He (Jesus) would seek his destiny without really knowing what it was but gradually finding out that He was to die for the sake of humankind. The whole sacrifical thing resonated with me from the Old Testament into the New Testament and I found it quite disturbing that Jesus should be treated in that manner. I remember thinking it was terribly cruel but I was assured it was done from love. For a kid that's a lot of confusing stuff.

But I also remember thinking that blaming the Jews for the acts of a few elites, who were collaborators with the Roman occupiers and who felt threatened by Jesus and his followers was a bit stupid.

In Coulter's case, where she's adopted this idea of Jews not being as good as Christians, she displays herself as a pretty poor Christian.

I don't listen to Coulter. She has proven herself an embarassment to me as a conservative and a Christian enough. There is no room for bigotry in Christian circles. I don't claim her as one of my own.

I will let God decide her fate and pray that when Heaven's Gates are opened for me that she and many more of the political whacko's, liberal and conservative, will somehow find their way inside with me.

Speaking of the Romans and their hand in the death of Jesus Christ, I came out of "The Passion of Christ" thinking not so much about how the Jewish people had killed Christ but rather that those Romans were some sadistic S.O.B's.

Immie

[diuretic]

They were indeed, brutal.

[April15]

I don't listen to Coulter. She has proven herself an embarassment to me as a conservative and a Christian enough. There is no room for bigotry in Christian circles. I don't claim her as one of my own.

I will let God decide her fate and pray that when Heaven's Gates are opened for me that she and many more of the political whacko's, liberal and conservative, will somehow find their way inside with me.

Speaking of the Romans and their hand in the death of Jesus Christ, I came out of "The Passion of Christ" thinking not so much about how the Jewish people had killed Christ but rather that those Romans were some sadistic S.O.B's.

Immie

The roman empire was just past it's crest at the time of the death of Christ. Did the movie have the question of Christ before crucifixion, "Father why hast thou forsaken me?"

[Immanuel]

The roman empire was just past it's crest at the time of the death of Christ. Did the movie have the question of Christ before crucifixion, "Father why hast thou forsaken me?"

Why do you ask?

I honestly don't remember as I saw it once and once was enough as is the case for just about all movies. I would have to say that it did, but am not sure and don't really care if it did not.

Immie

[diuretic]

Another blast from my past. I remember that phrase always struck a chord with me, it was an expression of utter hopelessness, of despair, of a man who felt abandoned by the universe. Even though I knew the rest of the story it always struck me as being extremely sad.

[mrg666]

....and therein lies the problem with Christianity.

i think everyone should convert to atheism
my ass sorry camel jockey friend thinks the same for muslim

[Hugh Lincoln]

the only one that killed Christ was Christ himself.

Who told you that, Jews?

[mrg666]

Who told you that, Jews?

he made no defence he accepted (as ordained ) he was gonna die

[Hugh Lincoln]

he made no defence he accepted (as ordained ) he was gonna die

But this doesn't amount to Jesus committing suicide. Nor does the involvement of the Romans mean much. The true killers of Christ were the Jewish pharisees who could not stand this rebel who challenged Jewish power. He was actually proposing that non-Jews could come to know God... and that was NOT cool with the other Jews! In fact, it still isn't. Jews consider THEMSELVES to be gods, and the rest of us, animals. Not very Christian, eh?

[mrg666]

But this doesn't amount to Jesus committing suicide. Nor does the involvement of the Romans mean much. The true killers of Christ were the Jewish pharisees who could not stand this rebel who challenged Jewish power. He was actually proposing that non-Jews could come to know God... and that was NOT cool with the other Jews!

i agree in fact every one dissowned him in the final hour and before am i correct
i have not had any religeous inclination for 29 years am still agnostic but remember my teachings

[diuretic]

I don't see the point of all of it anyway, I mean, God becomes man in the form of Jesus (remember gods had been adopting various guises to come to Earth for thousands of years - swans, bulls, people...) and then puts himself through thirty-odd years of life and then a terrible death. It doesn't make sense.

[happyfeet]

God is a myth...an interesting myth on how to live a good life, but a myth nonetheless...

[diuretic]

Uh-oh.....*backs slowly away from the computer* :laugh2:

[Immanuel]

Who told you that, Jews?

For starters Isaiah 53:10

"10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. "

Immie

[bullypulpit]

Anne Coulter - GOP Partei Sprechereine

[eighballsidepocket]

God is a myth...an interesting myth on how to live a good life, but a myth nonetheless...

Did living a "good" life just come out of thin air and primordial soup?

[diuretic]

Did living a "good" life just come out of thin air and primordial soup?

I think Socrates, Plato and Aristotle (Aristotle the Macedonian) thought about it. In fact there were heaps of folks wondering about - the Stoics, the Epicureans and so on. It was and still is a great human preoccupation.

[Yurt]

God is a myth...an interesting myth on how to live a good life, but a myth nonetheless...

your evidence appears to be myth....

[manu1959]

is not the point of all religions.....to convert everyone to their religion?

[diuretic]

is not the point of all religions.....to convert everyone to their religion?

No. I know one, Judaism, isn't full on for conversion. If you want to convert to Judaism you have to work hard to convince the rabbi that you are converting for the right reasons.

I know someone is going to come along in a minute and scream that Jooz think they're the Chosen People and gentiles are unwanted but that's not the point. The point is that it is a religion that isn't out there signing people up at airport terminals.

[happyfeet]

Did living a "good" life just come out of thin air and primordial soup?

Possibly..

What about God? Did he come out of thin air and primoridal soup?

[happyfeet]

your evidence appears to be myth....

Possibly! I take it you are a believer? What is your evidence other than a book written thousands of years ago that is incapable of giving corroborative evidence in many instances of what is says occurred, actually did occur?

[happyfeet]

is not the point of all religions.....to convert everyone to their religion?

I don't think Buddists and Jews do. I could be wrong on that though....

[LuvRPgrl]

Why the ???'

THey were for your statement, "I know Jesus WASNT a Christian"

Jesus was the first Christian, He single handidly created the relgion, it is named after Him.

Thats like saying Hitler wasnt a nazi, or the Pope isnt Catholic

[LuvRPgrl]

Rather a moot point, since Coulter doesn't seem to worship anything but money and attention.

It isnt even relevant what she worships. Wow, you go into the "deflection " mode by changing the topic really quick, you are very skilled at it, you must have a lot of experience with it. Its used by those who are wrong often, but never want to admit it or face the facts.

Now, back to topic, I do believe we were discussing the content of what she SAID.

[LuvRPgrl]

No, at least as I understand it. Jesus was and remained a Jew, in fulfillment of Scripture. His followers are the 'Christians.'


Jesus is a Jew and a Christian.
There are two ways to be Jewish. By birth and by conversion into the faith.
Christian is one who accepts Jesus as the Son Of God, on par with the Father. Jesus is God. Since Jesus taught and stated He is, it would be logical to say he is a Christian.

To say he wasnt a Christian would be like saying Buddha is a Buddhist.

I read a book a long time ago, "Who (or what) is a Jew". It was well written and explained.

One thing about the old test. It always distinguishes between a proslytized Jew and a Natural born Jew.

[LuvRPgrl]

The right wingers are always talking about our "kook base" when are they going to realize they have a kook base of their own. I hope Ann Coulter keeps doing what she does...and they is finally exposed for what she really is. I'll let you figure that one out. People like Ann Coulter seek only to attack and belittle people....not build this country up!


Its pretty obvious you are ashamed of the kooks in your party, as you are so desperate to find some in ours.

The DIFFERENCE is twofold. Our kooks are on the fringe, unlike yours who are in the middle of your party, and heralded by your party. We dont support kooks like you guys did with Mike Moore at the DNC. Or that wing nut job Cindy Sheehan, she was the darling of your party. Or Idiots like Jane Fonda and Robert Redford and Sean Penn who think Chavez, the dictator and Castro ,,are heroes.

Personally, I dont have much of an opinion on Ann, except she is very brilliant. Her main goal, after the attention and money, is getting a stick up the ass of you braindead liberals, and you guys fall for it every time.
Many on the right dont really like her or her tactics, unlike you liberal supporters of Mike Moore and his ilk, Jimmy Carter anyone? Fucking peanut brain that guy is.

[hjmick]

Jesus was the first Christian, He single handidly created the relgion, it is named after Him.

How do you figure it was named after Him? It's called Christianity not Jesusanity.

Christ is a title, not a name. It is the English term for the Greek word Christós, which literally means "The Anointed One." The Hebrew word for Christ is Mašía, usually translated as Messiah. That would be Jesus the Anointed One or Jesus the Messiah. Followers of Jesus became known as Christians because they believed that Jesus was the Christ, or Messiah, prophesied in the Tanakh or Old Testament. Christianity was named for Jesus' title, it was not named after him.

[LuvRPgrl]

Been trying to figure that one out for a long time myself.

I wonder if it is because the Jewish people killed Christ... but then my own belief teaches me that Christ gave himself up as a sacrifice for our sins, so in fact, the Jewish people were not alone in this endeavour and in reality the only one that killed Christ was Christ himself.

Immie

Most, if not virtually all, of the real Jew haters arent really Christians. They use that thing about Jews killed Jesus as an excuse to hate them. I mean, how can you not hate someone who murdered someone as great as Jesus? Only problem is, without Jesus going to the cross, NONE of us would be saved, and all doomed to hell, so they should actually thank the Jews for killing Jesus. DUH,,,but that takes more than one brain cell to think through on that one.

[LuvRPgrl]

When I was a kid I remember vaguely the idea (I was baptised Roman Catholic and attended Roman Catholic primary schools) being floated around that Jews were bad because they killed Christ. But I also remember the Romans had a hand in it too, despite Pilate's apparent disinterest, he could have done something but he didn't. But even as a kid it still struck me that it was pre-determined (although I wouldn't have put it that way then).

There were times back then that I thought that perhaps Jesus wasn't aware of His destiny, that God - although Jesus was God made man - had somehow removed that knowledge from the man Jesus, so that He (Jesus) would seek his destiny without really knowing what it was but gradually finding out that He was to die for the sake of humankind. The whole sacrifical thing resonated with me from the Old Testament into the New Testament and I found it quite disturbing that Jesus should be treated in that manner. I remember thinking it was terribly cruel but I was assured it was done from love. For a kid that's a lot of confusing stuff.

But I also remember thinking that blaming the Jews for the acts of a few elites, who were collaborators with the Roman occupiers and who felt threatened by Jesus and his followers was a bit stupid.

In Coulter's case, where she's adopted this idea of Jews not being as good as Christians, she displays herself as a pretty poor Christian.

If you are a Christian, that indeed is what you would believe. Jews have not gained salvation and hence are not as "good" or whatever you want to call it, as Christians. CHristians are the only ones who have been cleansed clean by the blood of Jesus.

[LuvRPgrl]

How do you figure it was named after Him? It's called Christianity not Jesusanity.

Christ is a title, not a name. It is the English term for the Greek word Christós, which literally means "The Anointed One." The Hebrew word for Christ is Mašíaḥ, usually translated as Messiah. That would be Jesus the Anointed One or Jesus the Messiah. Followers of Jesus became known as Christians because they believed that Jesus was the Christ, or Messiah, prophesied in the Tanakh or Old Testament. Christianity was named for Jesus' title, it was not named after him.

Yea, its a title, and a title reserved for onlly ONE person. Jesus. Christians believe that Jesus is the Christ, hence, ones who believe in Jesus the Christs teachings, are Christians.

Many Jews today still believe the Christ is coming, they simply rejected Jesus as the Christ. Even though overwhelming evidence points to them as being in error.

[diuretic]

THey were for your statement, "I know Jesus WASNT a Christian"

Jesus was the first Christian, He single handidly created the relgion, it is named after Him.

Thats like saying Hitler wasnt a nazi, or the Pope isnt Catholic

Nice to see you back again.

But Jesus was a Jew. When did he become a Christian? Maybe Peter was the first Christian, having been the first apostle of Jesus?

[Immanuel]

Most, if not virtually all, of the real Jew haters arent really Christians. They use that thing about Jews killed Jesus as an excuse to hate them. I mean, how can you not hate someone who murdered someone as great as Jesus? Only problem is, without Jesus going to the cross, NONE of us would be saved, and all doomed to hell, so they should actually thank the Jews for killing Jesus. DUH,,,but that takes more than one brain cell to think through on that one.

FYI: My "I wonder" statement was not actually one of not being sure. I understand all of that. It was just throwing the thought out there sort of like, "well jeesh, I wonder if the sun is going to rise today".


Jews have not gained salvation and hence are not as "good" or whatever you want to call it, as Christians. CHristians are the only ones who have been cleansed clean by the blood of Jesus.

Just curious... what do you think of this passage?

Romans 11:25-32

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I was reading this passage last night in my readings. It seemed appropriate here. Commentators state that the "all" in this passage does not literally mean all but rather a remnant of all ages of Jews will be saved. This to me means that the remnant spoken of here would be saved by God's grace and grace alone. However, I would be happy to find out that when God said "all" he literally meant all.

Immie

[stephanie]

Who the HELL cares.....what Ann Coulter says......?

Just like I really gave a shit what........Rosie Odonnell, Shaun Penn, Babba Walters, Babba Striendstiend, and the rest of the numb fucks said....


Goodness........gag me with a spoon...:coffee:

[JohnDoe]

FYI: My "I wonder" statement was not actually one of not being sure. I understand all of that. It was just throwing the thought out there sort of like, "well jeesh, I wonder if the sun is going to rise today".



Just curious... what do you think of this passage?

Romans 11:25-32

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I was reading this passage last night in my readings. It seemed appropriate here. Commentators state that the "all" in this passage does not literally mean all but rather a remnant of all ages of Jews will be saved. This to me means that the remnant spoken of here would be saved by God's grace and grace alone. However, I would be happy to find out that when God said "all" he literally meant all.

Immie

GREAT post Immanuel!

I don't ever remember reading this part of Scripture, or it just didn't stick! :(

Anyway, definately something to ponder on.

Care

[PostmodernProphet]

Just curious... what do you think of this passage?


Ahab was the king of Israel at one point in time....it strains my credibility to think that he would be "saved" as stated in this passage.....

though God stated many times that he would always give his chosen people another chance....does that extend beyond the first coming of Chirst?.....will there be a point in time prior to the 2nd coming when Jews who worship YHWH correctly are given a revelation and an opportunity?....who knows....I do think it is incorrect, however, to consider what God states for Israel in scripture to be applied in a blanket manner to the nation of Israel.....if anything it would have to be considered as spoken on behalf of all believing Jews in the diaspora.....

[GW in Ohio]

She didn't "DEMAND" anything. And she's right. I think it shows her compassion. I think EVERYONE should convert to Christanity. :)

And I think you ought to mind your own fucking business and keep your nose out of other people's religion.

[April15]

Why do you ask?

I honestly don't remember as I saw it once and once was enough as is the case for just about all movies. I would have to say that it did, but am not sure and don't really care if it did not.

ImmieI don't go to the movies so I was just curious as to whether it was in it or not. It has to do with the point of the movie. Mel is a very over the top kind of person. From what I have heard the movie was a gross exaggeration of sadistic nature of the empire at that time in history. It was done to evoke certain emotions for the figure who was to be killed. The words attributed to Christ show that he had his doubts and he was supposedly the son of God.
These emotions play on the previous knowledge of a person viewing to be effective. Only Christian's feel the perceived sadistic pin.

[glockmail]

And I think you ought to mind your own fucking business and keep your nose out of other people's religion. You need to have more compassion for these poor fools who have not found Christ. Your alternative damns them to hell.

[April15]

You need to have more compassion for these poor fools who have not found Christ. Your alternative damns them to hell.How can you be damed to a place that is ficticious?

[glockmail]

How can you be damed to a place that is ficticious? Ask the guy who created it.

[April15]

Ask the guy who created it.I can't discuss with fictitious people. My imagination is just not vivid enough to do that. If your's is, good for you, enjoy.

[glockmail]

I can't discuss with fictitious people. My imagination is just not vivid enough to do that. If your's is, good for you, enjoy. Actuall they say that hell is the absence of everything that God created. So you live in His world now but not for long. :poke:

[darin]

And I think you ought to mind your own fucking business and keep your nose out of other people's religion.

Wow - hostile much? Maybe I think YOU should mind YOUR own mind and keep your nose out of my faith. :)

I care about people too much to sit by and watch them suffer through life apart from their Creator. It blows. It's very sad. :(

[dan]

The "Jews killed Jesus" argument is so stupid on so many levels. Any Christian who uses that argument needs to study up on the Crusades, then think about whether we should consider the actions of the distant past to be determinate of how we feel about religions now.

[glockmail]

If you've had any concerns about the right wing in the US being totally morally bankrupt as well as un-American, good ol' Ann has finally removed all doubt.



Source (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/11/national/main3358373.shtml?source=mostpop_story)

From your source:
"I simply asked her a question, something like, 'If the world was her way, what would it look like?' And she said something to the effect that everybody would be Christians," Deutsch told AdWeek. "I was somewhat baffled and asked if that meant there would be no Buddhists or Jews and I think her words were, 'perfected' Jews [would be OK]." There's no context with what he "thinks" she said, after he asked her "something like". Is this the New Media?

[darin]

The "Jews killed Jesus" argument is so stupid on so many levels. Any Christian who uses that argument needs to study up on the Crusades, then think about whether we should consider the actions of the distant past to be determinate of how we feel about religions now.

...but it's factually true Jesus was killed by Jews. It's sort of like saying "Native American Killed Gen Custer." Every Christian should be on their knees THANKING them for killing Christ - and christ's subsequent resurrection, allowing the christian to find God. :) It's a GOOD thing Christ was crucified.

And the Crusades? That's a GREAT piece of history showing Islamic nut-jobs hell-bent on killing 'infidels' :(

[Immanuel]

...but it's factually true Jesus was killed by Jews. It's sort of like saying "Native American Killed Gen Custer." Every Christian should be on their knees THANKING them for killing Christ - and christ's subsequent resurrection, allowing the christian to find God. :) It's a GOOD thing Christ was crucified.

And the Crusades? That's a GREAT piece of history showing Islamic nut-jobs hell-bent on killing 'infidels' :(

If the Crusades isn't a good example of religious error for you, how about a different tragedy? How about the Spanish Inquisition?

Immie

[darin]

But he Crusades are a good example of religious error - the Muslim relgion.

The Inquisition was a travesty and the exact opposite of what Christianity is all about, imo. :)

[Immanuel]

But he Crusades are a good example of religious error - the Muslim relgion.

Well, I can see what you are trying to say, however, I do not believe that faith can be forced down the throats of anyone especially by any human. The Crusades was an example of Christain, "convert or die" proselyzation.


The Inquisition was a travesty and the exact opposite of what Christianity is all about, imo. :)

I am very glad you see it this way. ;)

Immie

[darin]

Well, I can see what you are trying to say, however, I do not believe that faith can be forced down the throats of anyone especially by any human. The Crusades was an example of Christain, "convert or die" proselyzation.

That's not historically accurate. It's misleading. The catalyst for the Crusades was absolutely due to Muslim aggression against christianity. Had the Muslims not waged war against Christianity, Europe would not have been involved. :)

This doesn't absolve some of the Crusaders for some of their actions, but it's just not right to tell part of the story.

[Immanuel]

That's not historically accurate. It's misleading. The catalyst for the Crusades was absolutely due to Muslim aggression against christianity. Had the Muslims not waged war against Christianity, Europe would not have been involved. :)

No disagreement there. However, just because "they" started it doesn't mean we can force them to become Christians. It doesn't work that way.

Just because the muslims (Al Qaeda not Iraq) started the current war doesn't mean we can force them to live in a democracy let alone become Christians. We can show them the love of Christ and hope they come to believe, but we can not make them believe.

Immie

[darin]

No disagreement there. However, just because "they" started it doesn't mean we can force them to become Christians. It doesn't work that way.

You're quite reversed. The Crusades weren't about that. I was the MUSLIMS 'forcing' people to convert or be killed. Come on now... :)


Just because the muslims (Al Qaeda not Iraq) started the current war doesn't mean we can force them to live in a democracy let alone become Christians. We can show them the love of Christ and hope they come to believe, but we can not make them believe.

Immie

Your statement is pretty flawed to begin with. 'Force' democracy on people who 'want' democracy? Doesn't make sense.

The only way to deal with an Islamic Terrorist is to kill them before they kill you. It's a great example of Christ's love if I were to SAVE an innocent person, by killing an Islamic Terrorist before he strapped a bomb to his daughter and sent her into a crowded market.

[Immanuel]

You're quite reversed. The Crusades weren't about that. I was the MUSLIMS 'forcing' people to convert or be killed. Come on now... :)



Your statement is pretty flawed to begin with. 'Force' democracy on people who 'want' democracy? Doesn't make sense.

The only way to deal with an Islamic Terrorist is to kill them before they kill you. It's a great example of Christ's love if I were to SAVE an innocent person, by killing an Islamic Terrorist before he strapped a bomb to his daughter and sent her into a crowded market.

Suddenly, I think it is you who have things reversed.

Show me one verse where it says Christ would have you kill muslims or even an "Islamic Terrorist" in order to save an innocent person.

And that would not be any verses pertaining to the sacrifice made by Christ or Caiaphas' prophecy of one man (Christ) dying for an entire nation.

Immie

[darin]

Suddenly, I think it is you who have things reversed.


Study the crusades. Study both sides.



Show me one verse where it says Christ would have you kill muslims or even an "Islamic Terrorist" in order to save an innocent person.

And that would not be any verses pertaining to the sacrifice made by Christ or Caiaphas' prophecy of one man (Christ) dying for an entire nation.

Immie

That's an absolutely impossible standard, as Islam is not addressed in the Bible.

Do you think it's BIBLICAL to sit and take NO action in such a scenario? Without TWO thoughts I'd kill ANYONE to keep them from hurting my kids, for instance. Is that unbiblical? No - it'd be me performing my God-given responsibility.

[GW in Ohio]

I understand that those of you who have bought into the Christian concept of heaven and hell are unable to entertain the possibility of alternate views, but be assured there are billions of people who don't subscribe to it.

(And please don't start with that crap about they're all going to hell. Let's try and keep this at a 5th grade level or above.)

What you should be aware of is that those billions of people who don't buy into your heaven and hell nevertheless have a deep sense of morality, a strong moral code, and they have a belief system which holds that good acts are rewarded and evil acts are punished.

Go and read up on Buddhism or Hinduism.

And there's one other thing you ought to be aware of.....

Your oft-stated belief that everybody should be a Christian and its corollary that non-Christians are destined for hell is very offensive, and not a little patronizing to those of us who don't share your beliefs.

The last time I checked, this was a politics board, not a Christian board.

[glockmail]

...Show me one verse where it says Christ would have you kill muslims or even an "Islamic Terrorist" in order to save an innocent person.....

He said "turn the other cheek", knowing full well that men only have two.

[April15]

Actuall they say that hell is the absence of everything that God created. So you live in His world now but not for long. :poke:You really believe that tripe?

[glockmail]

"Tripe" better describes your beliefs.

[typomaniac]

You really believe that tripe?

I know this shit-for-brains well, April: he's a Coulter wannabe who will say absolutely anything for attention. Ignore him and he'll find another board.

[darin]

I understand that those of you who have bought into the Christian concept of heaven and hell are unable to entertain the possibility of alternate views, but be assured there are billions of people who don't subscribe to it.

(And please don't start with that crap about they're all going to hell. Let's try and keep this at a 5th grade level or above.)

What you should be aware of is that those billions of people who don't buy into your heaven and hell nevertheless have a deep sense of morality, a strong moral code, and they have a belief system which holds that good acts are rewarded and evil acts are punished.

Go and read up on Buddhism or Hinduism.

And there's one other thing you ought to be aware of.....

Your oft-stated belief that everybody should be a Christian and its corollary that non-Christians are destined for hell is very offensive, and not a little patronizing to those of us who don't share your beliefs.

The last time I checked, this was a politics board, not a Christian board.

Do you become physically aroused when insulting Christians and Christianity? I mean - this is a thread where the subject is religion - and you willingly participate while having no or little apparent interest in religion except to belittle. Therefore, I'm guessing you get a physical response to seeing your words - seeing your insults and jabs against those of Faith.
-

[Immanuel]

Study the crusades. Study both sides.



That's an absolutely impossible standard, as Islam is not addressed in the Bible.

Ah come on, you are up to the task. ;)

Anyway, find me a verse that says it is okay to kill anyone in order to save an innocent person.


Do you think it's BIBLICAL to sit and take NO action in such a scenario? Without TWO thoughts I'd kill ANYONE to keep them from hurting my kids, for instance. Is that unbiblical? No - it'd be me performing my God-given responsibility.

What you would do and what Christ would do or even have you do are two different things. Me? I would protect my children without a doubt, but, I am not certain that killing is how Christ would have me deal with such a situation.

Immie


I understand that those of you who have bought into the Christian concept of heaven and hell are unable to entertain the possibility of alternate views, but be assured there are billions of people who don't subscribe to it.

(And please don't start with that crap about they're all going to hell. Let's try and keep this at a 5th grade level or above.)

What you should be aware of is that those billions of people who don't buy into your heaven and hell nevertheless have a deep sense of morality, a strong moral code, and they have a belief system which holds that good acts are rewarded and evil acts are punished.

Go and read up on Buddhism or Hinduism.

And there's one other thing you ought to be aware of.....

Your oft-stated belief that everybody should be a Christian and its corollary that non-Christians are destined for hell is very offensive, and not a little patronizing to those of us who don't share your beliefs.

The last time I checked, this was a politics board, not a Christian board.

I would be honored to discuss your beliefs on a one on one basis.

I very much enjoy learning about other's beliefs. I may not agree with them and I may pray God leads them to salvation, but, I enjoy understanding or more aptly learning about the beliefs of others.

I try not to force what I believe upon others although I am sure at times it seems different than that.

Last time I checked this was in the "Religion Forum". If you are not interested in discussing religion, why would you enter the forum? :laugh2:

Immie

PS My apologies GW, I just looked this is in "USA Current Events". Maybe it belongs in the Religion Forum.


He said "turn the other cheek", knowing full well that men only have two.

I've got four! Two in the upper anterior and two mid-level posterier. Spelling may be off on those, I'm too lazy to check.

Immie

[darin]

Ah come on, you are up to the task. ;)

Anyway, find me a verse that says it is okay to kill anyone in order to save an innocent person.




O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed,
blessed shall he be who repays you
with what you have done to us!
Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock!

Was better to kill a baby Babylonian before it had a chance to grow up and kill you.



What you would do and what Christ would do or even have you do are two different things. Me? I would protect my children without a doubt, but, I am not certain that killing is how Christ would have me deal with such a situation.

Immie

God killed millions? perhaps, throughout the Bible. God has given folk over to their reprobate mindsets. Any person threatening me or my family, or a stranger for that matter, MUST be given over to his depraved mind. Christ prevented Peter from fighting during Christ's arrest because Christ knew he HAD to be arrested.

Maybe you could point out any teachings which indicate one should allow murder/harm to happen if they can prevent it?

[Immanuel]

Was better to kill a baby Babylonian before it had a chance to grow up and kill you.



God killed millions? perhaps, throughout the Bible. God has given folk over to their reprobate mindsets. Any person threatening me or my family, or a stranger for that matter, MUST be given over to his depraved mind. Christ prevented Peter from fighting during Christ's arrest because Christ knew he HAD to be arrested.

Maybe you could point out any teachings which indicate one should allow murder/harm to happen if they can prevent it?

Would you save me the effort and give me a reference for those verses? I'm a bit busy at the moment. I would guess it is taken out of context.

Immie

[April15]

I know this shit-for-brains well, April: he's a Coulter wannabe who will say absolutely anything for attention. Ignore him and he'll find another board.Thanks for the tip!

[darin]

Would you save me the effort and give me a reference for those verses? I'm a bit busy at the moment. I would guess it is taken out of context.

Immie

I provided the context - The writer was speaking to Babylon - which had enslaved/run-over Israel. Babylonians were among the most-feared of the ancients.

:)

[GW in Ohio]

Do you become physically aroused when insulting Christians and Christianity? I mean - this is a thread where the subject is religion - and you willingly participate while having no or little apparent interest in religion except to belittle. Therefore, I'm guessing you get a physical response to seeing your words - seeing your insults and jabs against those of Faith.
-

Nobody's insulting your religion. Stop behaving like a dipshit.

[glockmail]

.....
I've got four! Two in the upper anterior and two mid-level posterier. Spelling may be off on those, I'm too lazy to check.

....

Perhaps that's where "mooning" came from. :laugh2:

But seriously, I don't recall anywhere in Christ's teachings where He advocates showing your ass to your enemies. But I recall many, many stories where He has stood up to those who would do harm to the innocent.

[darin]

Nobody's insulting your religion. Stop behaving like a dipshit.

You are insulting MILLIONS of christians - including those on this board.

You take a fundamental concept of their faith and mock it:



(And please don't start with that crap about they're all going to hell. Let's try and keep this at a 5th grade level or above.)

That's an insult. You are calling somebody's faith in the above 'crap' and insinuate people would be stupid to believe it.

An insult.

Just be 'nice'. Be a nice person. That's all ANYBODY expects online. Your seemingly horniness to attack Christianity does NOTHING to further your point of view - it only turns people off and makes you look silly.

[Immanuel]

Perhaps that's where "mooning" came from. :laugh2:

But seriously, I don't recall anywhere in Christ's teachings where He advocates showing your ass to your enemies. But I recall many, many stories where He has stood up to those who would do harm to the innocent.

I agree, however, I cannot truly think of anyplace where he states that we should kill to protect the innocent. It seems like he always provides a way out see 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Immie

[glockmail]

I agree, however, I cannot truly think of anyplace where he states that we should kill to protect the innocent. It seems like he always provides a way out see 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Immie


1 Corinthians 10:13 (New International Version)

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

That passage has nothing to do about defending the innocent. But if you want to take it as that, I would argue that "a way out so that you can stand up under it" would be to pick up your sword and drive it through your attacker.

Or, as we practice here in Red State America, "Peace through Superior Fire Power". :laugh2:

[Immanuel]

That passage has nothing to do about defending the innocent. But if you want to take it as that, I would argue that "a way out so that you can stand up under it" would be to pick up your sword and drive it through your attacker.

Or, as we practice here in Red State America, "Peace through Superior Fire Power". :laugh2:

I suppose that is one way to look at it. :laugh2:

Immie

[GW in Ohio]

You are insulting MILLIONS of christians - including those on this board.

You take a fundamental concept of their faith and mock it:



That's an insult. You are calling somebody's faith in the above 'crap' and insinuate people would be stupid to believe it.

An insult.

Just be 'nice'. Be a nice person. That's all ANYBODY expects online. Your seemingly horniness to attack Christianity does NOTHING to further your point of view - it only turns people off and makes you look silly.


dmp: Do you not see that when you tell people who do not believe the same things you believe that they are going to hell for ever and ever, and that they are lower than dogshit in the sight of God that you are being offensive and patronizing?

This is the thing that pisses me off about Christians. If I don't believe the way you do, you tell me I'm damned.

I don't do that to you. I think your beliefs are quaint, but I also think if they work for you, then that's cool. I'm not going to tell you you're damned for all eternity or that God wants you to fuck off.

[darin]

dmp: Do you not see that when you tell people who do not believe the same things you believe that they are going to hell for ever and ever, and that they are lower than dogshit in the sight of God that you are being offensive and patronizing?

God is only bothered by those who refuse him, and thus, spend eternity in Hell. God is not bothered by the Truth because God is truth. When Christ said "No man comes to the Father, except through me." was he being patronizing and offensive? No - he was offering HOPE. He was displaying ultimate love by proclaiming an ultimate, universal, absolute truth.


This is the thing that pisses me off about Christians. If I don't believe the way you do, you tell me I'm damned.


It's NEVER about what "Christians Believe" it's about Truth. If you don't believe the absolute truth that apart from Christ you will never find/see God, that's between YOU and christ. However I will NEVER lie and say "because you are sincere in believing your particular religion, God will have mercy. Sincerity has never turned a falsehood into truth.

[GW in Ohio]

God is only bothered by those who refuse him, and thus, spend eternity in Hell. God is not bothered by the Truth because God is truth. When Christ said "No man comes to the Father, except through me." was he being patronizing and offensive? No - he was offering HOPE. He was displaying ultimate love by proclaiming an ultimate, universal, absolute truth.



It's NEVER about what "Christians Believe" it's about Truth. If you don't believe the absolute truth that apart from Christ you will never find/see God, that's between YOU and christ. However I will NEVER lie and say "because you are sincere in believing your particular religion, God will have mercy. Sincerity has never turned a falsehood into truth.

Oh, fuck your "absolute truth."

You think you have cornered the market on absolute truth.......

You've cornered the market on something, but it ain't absolute truth.

[darin]

I'm sorry you are so bitter and angry. Should I, likewise, say 'fuck YOUR 'absolute truth'?

You have your views. My Faith is placed in a plan I consider to be absolutely true - something 100% correct and infallible. I don't allow that Christ could be wrong, or a liar. I cannot believe it, because it'd mean my faith in Him is worthless.

Your anger does not make me angry, but I feel compassion towards you and whatever caused this militant anti-christian attitude I see.

[GW in Ohio]

I'm sorry you are so bitter and angry. Should I, likewise, say 'fuck YOUR 'absolute truth'?

You have your views. My Faith is placed in a plan I consider to be absolutely true - something 100% correct and infallible. I don't allow that Christ could be wrong, or a liar. I cannot believe it, because it'd mean my faith in Him is worthless.

Your anger does not make me angry, but I feel compassion towards you and whatever caused this militant anti-christian attitude I see.

Thank you so much. I accept your Christian compassion.

[Abbey Marie]

dmp: Do you not see that when you tell people who do not believe the same things you believe that they are going to hell for ever and ever, and that they are lower than dogshit in the sight of God that you are being offensive and patronizing?

This is the thing that pisses me off about Christians. If I don't believe the way you do, you tell me I'm damned.

I don't do that to you. I think your beliefs are quaint, but I also think if they work for you, then that's cool. I'm not going to tell you you're damned for all eternity or that God wants you to fuck off.

Dmp didn't say that "no one comes to the Father but through me". That was Jesus.

[typomaniac]

I'm sorry you are so bitter and angry. Should I, likewise, say 'fuck YOUR 'absolute truth'?

You have your views. My Faith is placed in a plan I consider to be absolutely true - something 100% correct and infallible. I don't allow that Christ could be wrong, or a liar. I cannot believe it, because it'd mean my faith in Him is worthless.

Your anger does not make me angry, but I feel compassion towards you and whatever caused this militant anti-christian attitude I see.

Many people would not call that cultish attitude "Christianity." Probably a lot of ministers and priests wouldn't. I definitely wouldn't.

[PostmodernProphet]

Anyway, find me a verse that says it is okay to kill anyone in order to save an innocent person.

interesting....knowing what you know about the teachings of Jesus, can you suggest to me what you think the parable of the Good Samaritan would have read like if the setting had been a few hours earlier?......

would Jesus have described the Samaritan sitting at the side of the road watching the thieves beating the traveler, waiting for his opportunity to help the man out?......or do you think that one who is a good neighbor would be one who would have prevented the beating......

on the other hand, there is always 2 Kings 21:23 Another time, Elisha was on his way to Bethel and some little kids came out from the town and taunted him, "What's up, old baldhead! Out of our way, skinhead!"
24 Elisha turned, took one look at them, and cursed them in the name of God. Two bears charged out of the underbrush and knocked them about, ripping them limb from limb—forty-two children in all!

42 killed to save Elisha......

[darin]

Many people would not call that cultish attitude "Christianity." Probably a lot of ministers and priests wouldn't. I definitely wouldn't.

If you found a minister or priest who allowed there are 'many paths to God' or either of those to suggest they admit their faith may be misplaced, I'd say RUN from them (figuratively); and woe to the congregation under their influence.

Either folk believe in Christ, or they do not. There is no 'sorta believing'. :(

[typomaniac]

Either folk believe in Christ, or they do not. There is no 'sorta believing'. :(

So if you're not with him, you're against him? If you really think that Jesus and George W. are that similar, I'll stay away from your brand of faith. :talk2hand:

[darin]

So if you're not with him, you're against him? If you really think that Jesus and George W. are that similar, I'll stay away from your brand of faith. :talk2hand:

Yes - Christ was pretty clear. In fact, the Bible teaches it's better for somebody to be completely against Him, than a 'ride-the-fence' kinda guy. :)

This isn't 'my' brand, though, typo. The message of the book is clear - problems with the content should be directed at the author. :)

[typomaniac]

Yes - Christ was pretty clear. In fact, the Bible teaches it's better for somebody to be completely against Him, than a 'ride-the-fence' kinda guy. :)

Really? And I thought that Jesus said, "Those who are not against me are with me."
:slap::laugh2:

[darin]

Really? And I thought that Jesus said, "Those who are not against me are with me."
:slap::laugh2:

He might have. :)

[JohnDoe]

But couldn't it also mean, what we have been told via the Word of God, that Jesus Christ is the judge of all? We know everyone that will go to Heaven or Hell, gets this disposition and comes through Christ via His Judgement on judgement day?

So even non believers, or Jews as an example, will be Judged by Christ according to the Law, thus could still come to the Father, via the judgement and mercy of His Son, Jesus, the Christ?

God makes the sun shine and the rain come down, for all of mankind.

I have never been taught, without any doubt, that Jews and others would never see God...I have been taught that God raises leaders and nations, and brings them down too.... In other words, God IS THE Almighty, different religions are all part of His plan.... what that specifically is when the whole plan is said and done, is much greater, than I could EVER have a handle on!!! I would not presume to know who Jesus Christ, on judgement day, chooses to go to the Father, He knows much more than any human and I have Faith that He is a just God and is also merciful!!!

I can understand how other Christians have their stances and beliefs, but others certainly have the same right to their stance and the stances of their Christian Church imo.

I suppose there wouldn't be so many different denominations of Christianity if all Christians believed in the same Doctrine?

jd

[glockmail]

Jesus said: no one comes to the Father except through Me.

[happyfeet]

I still want to know, who made god?

[JohnDoe]

Jesus said: no one comes to the Father except through Me.but lean & mean, he is also everyone in the World's Judge, on Judgement Day....EVERYONE'S judge.

Only through Him and His judgement of such on Judgement day, goes to the Father....

Could also leave leaway for those that are non believers to meet him and face him on Judgement day and if He deems, If Jesus feels like it, He can allow whoever he wants to go to the Father... and THIS WOULD STILL BE through Jesus Christ that they got to be with the Father....??? I am certain I am missing something and am open on this but as of now, I can't rule that out! :)

I know, it sounds like a loophole of some sort...and I very well could be wrong, but I would never presume that I know it all and what it all means.. I know I have accepted Christ and I know what that means to me, a sinner. I also hope that I can help bring as many others in the world to believe in what I believe, and that is that Jesus was God made man, and perfect, umblemished in any manner, and that He was given up in sacrafice, for me and for all of mankind.

jd

[April15]

I still want to know, who made god?
Long long ago in a place far far away a parasite that needed a host to exist made god so it could suck out the life of god. Poor bloke was a crappy speller and misspelled dog.

[darin]

I still want to know, who made god?

Start a thread and ask that question


but lean & mean, he is also everyone in the World's Judge, on Judgement Day....EVERYONE'S judge.

Only through Him and His judgement of such on Judgement day, goes to the Father....

Except Christians - who are spared 'judgment'.


Could also leave leeway for those that are non believers to meet him and face him on Judgement day and if He deems, If Jesus feels like it, He can allow whoever he wants to go to the Father... and THIS WOULD STILL BE through Jesus Christ that they got to be with the Father....??? I am certain I am missing something and am open on this but as of now, I can't rule that out! :)

I know, it sounds like a loophole of some sort...and I very well could be wrong, but I would never presume that I know it all and what it all means.. I know I have accepted Christ and I know what that means to me, a sinner. I also hope that I can help bring as many others in the world to believe in what I believe, and that is that Jesus was God made man, and perfect, umblemished in any manner, and that He was given up in sacrafice, for me and for all of mankind.

jd

Keep in mind; Jesus can't do whatever he feels like doing - if that action makes him a liar.

You leave out SO Much wit that last line...you leave out the most important part.

...for all mankind, if they accept him. - is how it should read. ;)


Long long ago in a place far far away a parasite that needed a host to exist made god so it could suck out the life of god. Poor bloke was a crappy speller and misspelled dog.

Dude - you won't be happy until I preemptively ban you from EVERY religious thread.

[Immanuel]

interesting....knowing what you know about the teachings of Jesus, can you suggest to me what you think the parable of the Good Samaritan would have read like if the setting had been a few hours earlier?......

would Jesus have described the Samaritan sitting at the side of the road watching the thieves beating the traveler, waiting for his opportunity to help the man out?......or do you think that one who is a good neighbor would be one who would have prevented the beating......

on the other hand, there is always 2 Kings 21:23 Another time, Elisha was on his way to Bethel and some little kids came out from the town and taunted him, "What's up, old baldhead! Out of our way, skinhead!"
24 Elisha turned, took one look at them, and cursed them in the name of God. Two bears charged out of the underbrush and knocked them about, ripping them limb from limb—forty-two children in all!

42 killed to save Elisha......

Well, since a Parable is nothing more than a story used by Jesus to teach a lesson, I do not believe that your statement applies. You have added information that was not included in the hypothetical situation. You will have to ask Jesus when your time comes if he would have the Samaritan beat the living crap out of the robbers.

In regards to 2 Kings, I'll have to think about this a bit. I do not see "approval" from God in this case. I see Elisha cursing the children and if you asked me my first reply would be that Elisha sinned here.

However, Elisha's curse would have had to have been followed through by God. Which some might say, was God's approval. Then again, God dealt severely and quickly with sin in many situations such as in Numbers 11:1-3, Numbers 15:32-36, and Numbers 16. So, it is possible that God was dealing with sin in 2 Kings 21:23 rather than approving of Elisha's taking of life for the benefit of the innocent.

I still need to look up dmp's verse from Psalms. I have not forgotten.

I do not, however, believe God would have us pick and choose who should die for their unfaithfulness. For all we know, Osama bin Ladin may be slated to receive Christ tomorrow. Would you blow his brains out today? I should not ask that question, because honestly, given the opportunity I might just do that. I'm not perfect you know!

I appreciate your question PmP and won't claim to be right on this. However, I learned a long time ago that if a man reads a passage of scripture and thinks "Aha! this passage contradicts all these other passages of scripture and proves my point." Then since it contradicts the rest of scripture, that man had better go back and reread and rethink his point. Scripture interprets scripture and if his viewpoint contends with scripture then he had better get a new viewpoint.

Sola Scruptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide
Scripture alone, Grace alone, Faith alone


by dmp

Dude - you won't be happy until I preemptively ban you from EVERY religious thread.

But then how would you share God's love with her?

Immie

[darin]

For all we know, Osama bin Ladin may be slated to receive Christ tomorrow. Would you blow his brains out today? I should not ask that question, because honestly, given the opportunity I might just do that. I'm not perfect you know!

Then...he was not slated to receive Christ tomorrow. Everyone who will be saved is known to God. You will NOT circumvent His will by killing OBL. Also, perhaps an ass-whooping would be EXACTLY what a thug needs to turn his life around? Sometimes - it's throughout the bible - violence against somebody turns their hearts toward God. Helps them obey and learn and trust. :)




But then how would you share God's love with her?

Immie

By teaching him to control his fingers. ;) By expressing my love and concern for OTHERS by sparing them his constant ribbing? Lots of reasons. By showing him I'm a man of conviction and of my word. :)

[happyfeet]

Long long ago in a place far far away a parasite that needed a host to exist made god so it could suck out the life of god. Poor bloke was a crappy speller and misspelled dog.

heh...:laugh2::laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

Why hasn't anyone written a book that explains everything in the bible ? Step by step.

[Immanuel]

By teaching him to control his fingers. ;) By expressing my love and concern for OTHERS by sparing them his constant ribbing? Lots of reasons. By showing him I'm a man of conviction and of my word. :)

Him?

I could have sworn April15 was a her! Please tell me she is not a he!

Heck, I've even tried to engage her in a few pleasantries thinking she was a she! Dang, no wonder she has been so push-off-ish!

But still, that is besides the point if you banned him or her, whatever the case may be, how would you express your love and concern for others to him or her?

Immie

PS My apologies April15, I've thought you were a lady all along!

[darin]

Him?

I could have sworn April15 was a her! Please tell me she is not a he!

Heck, I've even tried to engage her in a few pleasantries thinking she was a she! Dang, no wonder she has been so push-off-ish!

But still, that is besides the point if you banned him or her, whatever the case may be, how would you express your love and concern for others to him or her?

Immie

PS My apologies April15, I've thought you were a lady all along!

You homo!

:D

I'd have to 'express Christ's Love through other threads or PMs. Remember, Tough-Love is love...but tough. :)

[JohnDoe]

[QUOTE]Except Christians - who are spared 'judgment'.

I am not so certain we are spared Judgement, the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats was the Judgement of those that believed and called upon Christ as Lord. Where in the Bible do you get that from Darin? We are judged by Christ on Judgement Day, though I have read some Theologians who have said we will be judged on our works for our rewards in Heaven but not necessarily for our salvation because that is sealed for us once born again of the Spirit and of Water, but actually sealed from the very begining, when our names were writen in the Book of Life...

Do you know whose names are writen in the Book of Life? I don't know, that's for certain. I would have had the thief on the cross next to Christ as one that would probably never see God. But Jesus seemed to know differently...didn't He?






Keep in mind; Jesus can't do whatever he feels like doing - if that action makes him a liar.

Yes, I did not word that well at all... but yes Jesus would have to stand by what He has taught us, and "no one goes to the Father, but through me" would NOT contradict someone who appeared to be a nonbeliever to us, goind to see the Father, because Jesus found Him worthy or because Jesus was merciful.... both are Characteristics of Jesus, to me.


You leave out SO Much wit that last line...you leave out the most important part.

...for all mankind, if they accept him. - is how it should read. ;)I do not believe you are correct...I don't think the "if they accept him" is part of this phrase...? Yes, there is scripture elsewhere that can be interpreted this way, most certainly, but not part of Him dying for all of our sins, or for all of mankind, I don't believe ''if we accept Him'' is part of the verse? Not 100% certain, so could be proven wrong and I would accept it...

jd

[darin]

Why hasn't anyone written a book that explains everything in the bible ? Step by step.

Cuz the bible is pretty farking easy to understand as-is. Just hard to understand when read with a closed mind/heart.

:D

[Immanuel]

You homo!

:D

I'd have to 'express Christ's Love through other threads or PMs. Remember, Tough-Love is love...but tough. :)

Hey!

I'm not the first male that has been fooled by a guy dressed in drag! :D At least in this case, it was via a computer screen and I have that excuse to fall back on!

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Cuz the bible is pretty farking easy to understand as-is. Just hard to understand when read with a closed mind/heart.

:D

How about "Bible For Dummies (who have a closed mind and heart)"

[Immanuel]

How about "Bible For Dummies (who have a closed mind and heart)"

Here you go...

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/productCd-0764552961.html

Glad I could help. :D

Immie

[darin]

I am not so certain we are spared Judgement, the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats was the Judgement of those that believed and called upon Christ as Lord. Where in the Bible do you get that from Darin?

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


We are judged by Christ on Judgement Day, though I have read some Theologians who have said we will be judged on our works for our rewards in Heaven but not necessarily for our salvation because that is sealed for us once born again of the Spirit and of Water, but actually sealed from the very begining, when our names were writen in the Book of Life...


Right - instead of being 'judged' per se, some teach we'll be 'rewarded' based upon our faithfulness and manifestations of or faith and junk.



Do you know whose names are writen in the Book of Life? I don't know, that's for certain. I would have had the thief on the cross next to Christ as one that would probably never see God. But Jesus seemed to know differently...didn't He?

I know mine is. I know my wife and kids' names are. I don't get the thief reference. With apologies to Dierk Bentley the heaven I'm going to will be full of thieves, liars, and prostitutes, saved from themselves by Grace. :)


Yes, I did not word that well at all... but yes Jesus would have to stand by what He has taught us, and "no one goes to the Father, but through me" would NOT contradict someone who appeared to be a nonbeliever to us, going to see the Father, because Jesus found Him worthy or because Jesus was merciful.... both are Characteristics of Jesus, to me.

That would be an amazing exception to the rule. Nobody can bear the fruits of the Spirit of God in their lives apart from God. And vice-versa. Depravity creeps or oozes into EVERY aspect of the unbeliever's life. :(


I do not believe you are correct...I don't think the "if they accept him" is part of this phrase...? Yes, there is scripture elsewhere that can be interpreted this way, most certainly, but not part of Him dying for all of our sins, or for all of mankind, I don't believe ''if we accept Him'' is part of the verse? Not 100% certain, so could be proven wrong and I would accept it...
jd



Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Those who don't believe cannot be 'waiting for Him'.


For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

I think that's pretty clear - we are given this life to accept Christ.

[Dilloduck]

Here you go...

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/productCd-0764552961.html

Glad I could help. :D

Immie

Cool--is this explanation of the Bible kosher or will it mislead people by not using exact scripture ?

[Immanuel]

Darin,

I believe in the strictest sense of the word, we will be judged. In fact, I believe we will be judged guilty. Then when sentence is passed the punishment will have already been meted out.

Therefore, I would agree with JD that we are judged. However, our judgment will not lead to condemnation.

The NIV as well as KJV places the word "condemned" in place of your version's "“He who believes in Him is not judged" in John 3:18. The Message uses the word "acquitted" which would mean judged and found innocent.


Cool--is this explanation of the Bible kosher or will it mislead people by not using exact scripture ?

Don't ask me. I've never read it. You asked for it, I brought it to you.

Matthew 7:7

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

Just trying to help. ;)

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Depravity creeps or oozes into EVERY aspect of the unbeliever's life.

How about believers--are they still subject to ooze ?

[darin]

Darin,

I believe in the strictest sense of the word, we will be judged. In fact, I believe we will be judged guilty. Then when sentence is passed the punishment will have already been meted out.

Therefore, I would agree with JD that we are judged. However, our judgment will not lead to condemnation.

The NIV as well as KJV places the word "condemned" in place of your version's "“He who believes in Him is not judged" in John 3:18. The Message uses the word "acquitted" which would mean judged and found innocent.


You're saying a formal process will be in place with the outcome already known? Seems silly. I'll research it some though, and get back to you why you're wrong.

:lol::laugh2::salute:

[Dilloduck]

You're saying a formal process will be in place with the outcome already known? Seems silly. I'll research it some though, and get back to you why you're wrong.

:lol::laugh2::salute:

Apparently the Bible isn't all that easy to understand.

[Immanuel]

You're saying a formal process will be in place with the outcome already known? Seems silly. I'll research it some though, and get back to you why you're wrong.

:lol::laugh2::salute:

Start with the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats as JD said. Matthew 25:31-46 and get back to me.

BTW JD may be a liberal and she may be off base in many things, but I have it on good authority that she tries to understand and she is open-minded about God's word and she does in fact know her Bible to some degree. Don't write her or me off just yet. :p

Immie

[typomaniac]

The longer this thread goes on, the more I think that John Milton had the right idea:


Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven.

The latter sounds like way more trouble than it's worth. :dev:

[darin]

Start with the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats as JD said. Matthew 25:31-46 and get back to me.

BTW JD may be a liberal and she may be off base in many things, but I have it on good authority that she tries to understand and she is open-minded about God's word and she does in fact know her Bible to some degree. Don't write her or me off just yet. :p

Immie

Where in that parable does it imply believers would be judged?

[Immanuel]

Where in that parable does it imply believers would be judged?

Verses 31-39 is a clear representation of judgment upon God's people. Whereas verses 40-46 represents the judgment of the wicked.

In verse 34, Christ passes sentence on those that have been acquitted. While in verse 41 he passes sentence upon those found guilty.

We all face judgment day. Fortunately for the chosen people of God (whoever they may be) they have been judged guilt free while those whom God has not chosen are judged guilty.

And don't ask me, at least not in this thread, why God would chose some of us and not others. ;)

John 9:39 "39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

No one is excluded in this verse, you are either blind and will see (one of God's chosen) or you see but will be blinded (the wicked) but you Will be judged.

Romans 5:16

"Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification."

We all have sinned and fallen away from God. That sin brought judgment but the Gift of God brought justification. We are justified after we have been judged for if not, there would be no need of justification.

Romans 14:10

"You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat."

That means you and me both my brother. Stand and be judged but know that the Blood of Christ has redeemed you from that judgment.

2 Thessalonians 1:5

"5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering."

You are judged rightly by God and as a result are counted worthy of the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 9:27

"27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment"

Again all men are destined to die and then face judgment. Will you be found guilty or not? That is the only question.

I do not think it can be any clearer that we will face judgment than with this next verse...

"For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17

We will face God's judgment but those who God will save he will save from the condemnation that follows judgment.

Immie

[JohnDoe]

Start with the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats as JD said. Matthew 25:31-46 and get back to me.

BTW JD may be a liberal and she may be off base in many things, but I have it on good authority that she tries to understand and she is open-minded about God's word and she does in fact know her Bible to some degree. Don't write her or me off just yet. :p

Immie

thank you immanuel...yes, I do try to understand it and am thoroughly opened to discuss, or argue :rolleyes: about the Bible anytime!!!!

Still a novice though, yet i enjoy learning and knowing more daily, and thanks to you and others and Bible study, the past 4 years ...and this site too, i am growing as we speak.

tried to rep you but i have to spread some around...


jd

[glockmail]

Him?

I could have sworn April15 was a her! Please tell me she is not a he!

He looks good in that leather Barbarella suit though. I've commented on his "nice tits" at least once. Almost makes me want to turn gay. :laugh2:

[JohnDoe]

How about believers--are they still subject to ooze ?I think so... not proudly, but we all fall short of the Glory of God and that ALL includes Believers, imo... Christ came for the sinners, not to condemn them, the LAW does that, (points out our sins), but to save them, from themselves....from their own weaknesses.

Do i believe once saved, good works will follow? yes! But, we are still not perfect, on our own, we still will sin, but we are made perfect, washed, through the blood of our lamb, Jesus.

ok, long disortation there....but yes, even believers can mess up.

jd

[Dilloduck]

I think so... not proudly, but we all fall short of the Glory of God and that ALL includes Believers, imo... Christ came for the sinners, not to condemn them, the LAW does that, (points out our sins), but to save them, from themselves....from their own weaknesses.

Do i believe once saved, good works will follow? yes! But, we are still not perfect, on our own, we still will sin, but we are made perfect, washed, through the blood of our lamb, Jesus.

ok, long disortation there....but yes, even believers can mess up.

jd

So believers aren't better than anyone else ?

[Immanuel]

So believers aren't better than anyone else ?

What do you want a confession of sins? :laugh2:

Bless me father for I have sinned... um, I'm not Catholic and I have never been to private confession so it has been... (hey, I'm not giving away my age that easily)... Where should I start... We interrupt this message for an important message from McDonald's...

100,000 Hail Marys! Are you crazy father?

Hehe, no, Dillo, I'm, er we're no better than anyone else.

Well, I think I might be a better person than Osama bin Ladin, but maybe not.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

What do you want a confession of sins? :laugh2:

Bless me father for I have sinned... um, I'm not Catholic and I have never been to private confession so it has been... (hey, I'm not giving away my age that easily)... Where should I start... We interrupt this message for an important message from McDonald's...

100,000 Hail Marys! Are you crazy father?

Hehe, no, Dillo, I'm, er we're no better than anyone else.

Well, I think I might be a better person than Osama bin Ladin, but maybe not.

Immie

No confessions necessary--just seeing how people feel about the basics. The "we all fall short" and washed by the blood" gets a bit vague and cliched. Are y'all sure your not Jewish? They love to pick scripture down to the bone.

[Dilloduck]

What do you want a confession of sins? :laugh2:

Bless me father for I have sinned... um, I'm not Catholic and I have never been to private confession so it has been... (hey, I'm not giving away my age that easily)... Where should I start... We interrupt this message for an important message from McDonald's...

100,000 Hail Marys! Are you crazy father?

Hehe, no, Dillo, I'm, er we're no better than anyone else.

Well, I think I might be a better person than Osama bin Ladin, but maybe not.

Immie

Good point on Bin laden tho---he thinks the west is corrupt with ooze like materialism and your other basic sins of pride and greed.

[JohnDoe]

I suppose so, I suppose there are believers that at some time in their lives, hit rock bottom and just oozed with sin, such as the adulteress that Christ helped from being stoned to death by her accusers, or Paul before he was blinded on the road to Damascas, and even afterwards, I always got the feeling that he was tormented by his own imperfections from time to time...

Moses is in Heaven and he killed a man and David is in Heaven even though he killed the husband of a woman he was having an affair with.... Those are some pretty rotten things! I can't begin to understand it all, but I am certain God sees it all, including the torment in ones heart for ones own transgressions... someone depraved, would be someone without a conscious imo, without any guilt or concern for their own sins imho.

So, yes both can be sinners...

[Immanuel]

No confessions necessary--just seeing how people feel about the basics. The "we all fall short" and washed by the blood" gets a bit vague and cliched. Are y'all sure your not Jewish? They love to pick scripture down to the bone.

I would have no problem being Jewish. Of course, I would have to belong to a Messianic Synagogue.

I used to work for a Jewish Community Center. Learned a lot from them. Not so much religious although there was a little bit of that, but I did pick up some good things and a few bad things too. But, I truly believe getting to know people from different cultures can do a person a lot of good.

Immie

[typomaniac]

I would have no problem being Jewish. Of course, I would have to belong to a Messianic Synagogue.

I used to work for a Jewish Community Center. Learned a lot from them. Not so much religious although there was a little bit of that, but I did pick up some good things and a few bad things too. But, I truly believe getting to know people from different cultures can do a person a lot of good.

Immie

Well, at least I'm glad you didn't say that you'd be a "Jew for Jesus." :laugh2:

But you gotta lose that lamb in your avatar, bro. Makes you look like a wuss.

[diuretic]

Interesting folks those Jews who believe in Jesus, Helen Shapiro (former UK child singing sensation back in the early 1960s) is a believer -

http://www.mannamusic.co.uk/walkingback/walkingback.htm

[glockmail]

....
But you gotta lose that lamb in your avatar, bro. Makes you look like a wuss. Your view: the head wuus here. :laugh2:

[GW in Ohio]

If you found a minister or priest who allowed there are 'many paths to God' or either of those to suggest they admit their faith may be misplaced, I'd say RUN from them (figuratively); and woe to the congregation under their influence.

Either folk believe in Christ, or they do not. There is no 'sorta believing'. :(

If I was going to go to a church, it would be a Unitarian church. They are the very ones who say there are many paths to God (which I believe).

You can have your Jesus and all the stuff that goes with him.

Good luck to you.

[glockmail]

If I was going to go to a church, it would be a Unitarian church. They are the very ones who say there are many paths to God (which I believe).

You can have your Jesus and all the stuff that goes with him.

Good luck to you.

A Moonie!

There are many more paths to hell. :dev3:

[GW in Ohio]

A Moonie!

There are many more paths to hell. :dev3:

Fuck your hell.

And while you're at it, you can put your heaven where the sun don't shine.

[glockmail]

Fuck your hell.

And while you're at it, you can put your heaven where the sun don't shine.

Oh! I thought you were above caring about heaven and hell. :lol:

[GW in Ohio]

Oh! I thought you were above caring about heaven and hell. :lol:

Do I sound like I care?

[glockmail]

Do I sound like I care? Yes. In fact you appear to have gotten uber-emotional about it. Hysterical, even.

Of course, being a weenie liberal, that sort of reaction from you is completely expected.

[typomaniac]

Your view: the head wuus here. :laugh2:

That made absolutely no sense. Typical of what comes from you.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=140474&postcount=92

[glockmail]

ditto :lame2:

[eighballsidepocket]

Folks:

Some of you folks in here are Christians, and some are not.

My attention or post is more aimed to those that claim to be biblical Christians.

Question: If Jesus was signed-onto this forum and was actually posting in this particular thread, how or what would He type in reply to those who are not Christians, and even to those claiming to be Christians?

In other words, try to picture if Jesus was standing by you while your in front of your P.C., and He's lovingly resting His hand on your shoulder, observing what you type to person "x" on this thread, and your a Christian, or Christ One, as we've earlier resolved with the semantics discussions?

Would you need to rethink what you've typed in the past few posts? Would you be a little embarrased to show Him what you have posted in this thread? Was your post seasoned with forgiveness, patience, and grace, as God showed to us through His unmerited favor, and reconciliation in His Son?

Just wondering. Food for thought? :)

I know we Christians aren't God in the flesh as Jesus is. We are capable of sin, and He hasn't, and will never sin.

Yet, aren't we as Christians called to be His ambassadors here on planet earth before the multitudes. I.E. we are representing Him via our speech, relationships, goals, desires, interactions in person, or remotely on forums, etc........basically, aren't we supposed to exude His life to others........or be "salt and light" ala Matthew Chapter 5? :)

[typomaniac]

Question: If Jesus was signed-onto this forum and was actually posting in this particular thread, how or what would He type in reply to those who are not Christians, and even to those claiming to be Christians?
Jesus would have a negative rep in the triple digits within about 2 weeks.

[Abbey Marie]

Jesus would have a negative rep in the triple digits within about 2 weeks.

Dang, you libs would even neg rep Jesus? That's not nice! :laugh2:

[glockmail]

Dang, you libs would even neg rep Jesus? That's not nice! :laugh2:

Nor smart. Par for the course.

[JohnDoe]

Folks:

Some of you folks in here are Christians, and some are not.

My attention or post is more aimed to those that claim to be biblical Christians.

Question: If Jesus was signed-onto this forum and was actually posting in this particular thread, how or what would He type in reply to those who are not Christians, and even to those claiming to be Christians?

In other words, try to picture if Jesus was standing by you while your in front of your P.C., and He's lovingly resting His hand on your shoulder, observing what you type to person "x" on this thread, and your a Christian, or Christ One, as we've earlier resolved with the semantics discussions?

Would you need to rethink what you've typed in the past few posts? Would you be a little embarrased to show Him what you have posted in this thread? Was your post seasoned with forgiveness, patience, and grace, as God showed to us through His unmerited favor, and reconciliation in His Son?

Just wondering. Food for thought? :)

I know we Christians aren't God in the flesh as Jesus is. We are capable of sin, and He hasn't, and will never sin.

Yet, aren't we as Christians called to be His ambassadors here on planet earth before the multitudes. I.E. we are representing Him via our speech, relationships, goals, desires, interactions in person, or remotely on forums, etc........basically, aren't we supposed to exude His life to others........or be "salt and light" ala Matthew Chapter 5? :)


Yes, we are suppose to be His ambassadors, it is not easy on a political board because unfortunately, we are taught to "Hate, or not believe, the other side.", thus the reason I believe that Politics and Religion do not mix well, especially when the baseless attacks take place...it shuts off the ability to witness, in the name of Christ.

I have been caught up in meaningless spats myself, but fortunately, married to a lifelong Republican, has allowed me to learn to listen to the opposing view, with no hate at all in my heart.... this doesn't mean that I agree politically, but that I can see past the usual political garbage and see that there are reasons people on the opposite political side, think as they do, and it is not hatred for the left that drives it, but for their own logical reasons....at least this is the case with my husband's view....and he couldn't hate a living thing, even if he wanted to....just isn't capable of hate imho.


jd

[TheSage]

....and therein lies the problem with Christianity.


It's not wrong to believe people should convert to your faith. That's the nature of all religions.

What matters is their method of conversion.

[avatar4321]

Coulter is popular because she says what many conservatives think, but are afraid to say. Coulter makes radical, extremist statements because that is what gets her attention. It's like Britney Spears going out in public without underwear (by the way, she did it again-- http://www.thesuperficial.com ).

Religion is a lot like language. If God had not intended for there to be a lot of diverse religions, he would have not created all of them. Just like he did with the Tower of Babel.
Every religion believes they are right. The Muslims believe they are right. Fred Phelps thinks he is right.
I think all of them are right. For those who believe in them.

what makes you think God created all religions? Ever consider maybe there is an evil force out there that wants to confuse people?

[avatar4321]

Ahab was the king of Israel at one point in time....it strains my credibility to think that he would be "saved" as stated in this passage.....

though God stated many times that he would always give his chosen people another chance....does that extend beyond the first coming of Chirst?.....will there be a point in time prior to the 2nd coming when Jews who worship YHWH correctly are given a revelation and an opportunity?....who knows....I do think it is incorrect, however, to consider what God states for Israel in scripture to be applied in a blanket manner to the nation of Israel.....if anything it would have to be considered as spoken on behalf of all believing Jews in the diaspora.....

God's work is Eternal. The Atonement is Eternal all will be blessed because of it. Especially the righteous.

[avatar4321]

And I think you ought to mind your own fucking business and keep your nose out of other people's religion.

I find it totally amusing that you are telling other people to mind their own business. if people want to share their faith and speak their mind, who the hell are you to tell them they cant?

[avatar4321]

If the Crusades isn't a good example of religious error for you, how about a different tragedy? How about the Spanish Inquisition?

Immie

How the heck were the Crusades a bad thing?

They stopped Islamic agression on Europe
They got the thugs running Europe united and away from Europe so that the intellectuals could flourish without worrying about being killed
They brought back knowledge, established trade, restored the law.
Provided the way for exploration of the New World.

Seriously some the Crusaders may have done some bad things, but the Crusades were a pretty damn good thing.

[typomaniac]

I find it totally amusing that you are telling other people to mind their own business. if people want to share their faith and speak their mind, who the hell are you to tell them they cant?

Your freedom to share your faith ends where my faith begins. Without that restriction we will inevitably destroy each other, and it's unlikely that this is what God wants us to do.

[darin]

Your freedom to share your faith ends where my faith begins. Without that restriction we will inevitably destroy each other, and it's unlikely that this is what God wants us to do.

That's plain silly.

[avatar4321]

Oh, fuck your "absolute truth."

You think you have cornered the market on absolute truth.......

You've cornered the market on something, but it ain't absolute truth.

its not a matter of having a corner on truth but having the most of it.

[typomaniac]

That's plain silly.

Damn, that boyz got some mad debatin' skillz! :laugh:

[darin]

Damn, that boyz got some mad debatin' skillz! :laugh:

There's nothing to debate. Your reply was silly. If that's how you really feel - if your faith is so weak it cannot stand when confronted...I mean...there's nothing anybody can say. It's crazy to think how you think.

[avatar4321]

Cuz the bible is pretty farking easy to understand as-is. Just hard to understand when read with a closed mind/heart.

:D

i disagree. mostly because if it was as easy as you say there wouldnt be such division in Christianity.

[avatar4321]

There's nothing to debate. Your reply was silly. If that's how you really feel - if your faith is so weak it cannot stand when confronted...I mean...there's nothing anybody can say. It's crazy to think how you think.

I agree. the truth can stand up to scrutiny.

And his assumption that sharing faith is somehow violating any right he has. he doesnt have to listen.

[avatar4321]

oh and to give Ann Coulter credit, she is right. The Jews do need to be perfected. So do the Christians:


48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)

Seems a similiar standard for everyone.

[darin]

i disagree. mostly because if it was as easy as you say there wouldnt be such division in Christianity.

No - no - no...They all understand the bible - they weigh it differently though.

:D

[Immanuel]

How the heck were the Crusades a bad thing?

They stopped Islamic agression on Europe
They got the thugs running Europe united and away from Europe so that the intellectuals could flourish without worrying about being killed
They brought back knowledge, established trade, restored the law.
Provided the way for exploration of the New World.

Seriously some the Crusaders may have done some bad things, but the Crusades were a pretty damn good thing.

I suppose if you think "forced conversions" are a good thing then they would have been good. I was speaking about souls not the good things you mentioned here.

Yes, I believe it was good to stop Islamic aggression. I think it is pretty evident that if Islam was allowed to flourish in Europe that the world would be as backwards as the Middle East is today, but my point is in reference to souls. You cannot forcefully convert a soul. Beating Osama bin Ladin over the head with a baseball bat is not going to make him a Christian. But those temporal benefits aside how was the glory of Christ spread during the Crusades?

As far as I can tell from the history I have read, the Crusades were little more than a war of greed and land grabbing.

I hope that makes sense.

You say that the Crusades were a good thing. I'm willing to listen to why you think this. Was it because of what you mentioned? Was there something spiritual won here? I would never claim that good did not come out of it, but spiritually speaking?

Honestly, I had not thought about it a lot. Then I began to think as a Christian what good came out of the Crusades for the Body of Christ? Were souls snatched out of the devils clutches? Was Christ proclaimed to the lost?

Immie

[avatar4321]

I suppose if you think "forced conversions" are a good thing then they would have been good. I was speaking about souls not the good things you mentioned here.

Yes, I believe it was good to stop Islamic aggression. I think it is pretty evident that if Islam was allowed to flourish in Europe that the world would be as backwards as the Middle East is today, but my point is in reference to souls. You cannot forcefully convert a soul. Beating Osama bin Ladin over the head with a baseball bat is not going to make him a Christian. But those temporal benefits aside how was the glory of Christ spread during the Crusades?

As far as I can tell from the history I have read, the Crusades were little more than a war of greed and land grabbing.

I hope that makes sense.

You say that the Crusades were a good thing. I'm willing to listen to why you think this. Was it because of what you mentioned? Was there something spiritual won here? I would never claim that good did not come out of it, but spiritually speaking?

Honestly, I had not thought about it a lot. Then I began to think as a Christian what good came out of the Crusades for the Body of Christ? Were souls snatched out of the devils clutches? Was Christ proclaimed to the lost?

Immie

the crusades werent force conversion. ive already mentioned why they were good. you obviously didnt listen.

[typomaniac]

There's nothing to debate. Your reply was silly. If that's how you really feel - if your faith is so weak it cannot stand when confronted...I mean...there's nothing anybody can say. It's crazy to think how you think.

It would be, if you think that religious freedom applies only to your religion.

The trouble with a lot of people is that they think "sharing" their faith means that it's God's will to try to force it on the heathens.

[darin]

It would be, if you think that religious freedom applies only to your religion.

The trouble with a lot of people is that they think "sharing" their faith means that it's God's will to try to force it on the heathens.

you're proving my point. Religious freedom should be applied to all. Nobody can 'force God' on ANYBODY, and Christians don't even try.

It's God's will that none should be dead. Of course, the dead seem to enjoy their separation from God for various reasons. It's the job of ANY Christian - no...it's the HONOR to share God's way out for us, to those who are dead.

:)

[typomaniac]

you're proving my point. Religious freedom should be applied to all. Nobody can 'force God' on ANYBODY, and Christians don't even try.

What about the Mormons who ring your doorbell? And doesn't your church have "outreach" people who visit those that have just moved into the neighborhood, trying to get them to show up at church next Sunday?


It's God's will that none should be dead. Of course, the dead seem to enjoy their separation from God for various reasons. It's the job of ANY Christian - no...it's the HONOR to share God's way out for us, to those who are dead.

:)

You talk to people in their graves? :confused:

[Immanuel]

the crusades werent force conversion. ive already mentioned why they were good. you obviously didnt listen.

I did listen and I saw what you said and I agreed with it. Perhaps you did not read what I said?

Why do you say they were not forced conversions? The stories I have heard were that the crusaders went in basically demanding that everyone become Christian or die just like what happened during the Inquisition. That seems forced to me.

I may be wrong here, but that is how I have always seen the crusades.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/crusades.stm

calling on Christian princes in Europe to go on a crusade to rescue the Holy Land from the Turks. In the speech given at the Council of Clermont in France, on November 27, 1095, he combined the ideas of making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land with that of waging a holy war against infidels.

**Using Robin, the Boy Wonder's voice**
Holy Jihad Batman! Holy war against infidels sound familiar?

Now back to the link...

"The West must march to the defense of the East. All should go, rich and poor alike. The Franks must stop their internal wars and squabbles. Let them go instead against the infidel and fight a righteous war.

"God himself will lead them, for they will be doing His work. There will be absolution and remission of sins for all who die in the service of Christ. Here they are poor and miserable sinners; there they will be rich and happy. Let none hesitate; they must march next summer. God wills it!

"Deus vult! (God wills it) became the battle cry of the Crusader.


The First Crusade was the most successful from a military point of view. Accounts of this action are shocking. For example, historian Raymond of Agiles described the capture of Jerusalem by the Crusaders in 1099:


Some of our men cut off the heads of their enemies; others shot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into the flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the temple of Solomon, a place where religious services ware ordinarily chanted. What happened there? If I tell the truth, it will exceed your powers of belief. So let it suffice to say this much at least, that in the temple and portico of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins."

Viewed in the light of their original purpose, the Crusades were failures. They made no permanent conquests of the Holy Land. They did not retard the advance of Islam. Far from aiding the Eastern Empire, they hastened its disintegration. They also revealed the continuing inability of Latin Christians to understand Greek Christians, and they hardened the schism between them. They fostered a harsh intolerance between Muslims and Christians, where before there had been a measure of mutual respect. They were marked, and marred, by a recrudescence of anti-Semitism....

Another interesting Source:

http://historymedren.about.com/od/firstcrusade/a/darklegacy.htm

How centuries of war began with one man's ambition

At the Council of Clermont in November of 1095, Urban made a speech that literally changed the course of history. In it, he stated that the Turks had not only invaded Christian lands but had visited unspeakable atrocities on Christians (of which, according to Robert the Monk's account, he spoke in great detail). This was a great exaggeration, but it was just the beginning.

One might argue that those who have studied the teachings of Jesus Christ would be shocked at the suggestion of killing anyone in Christ's name. But it is important to remember that the only people who were generally able to study scripture were priests and members of cloistered religious orders. Few knights and fewer peasants could read at all, and those who could rarely if ever had access to a copy of the gospel. A man's priest was his connection to God; the Pope was sure to know God's wishes better than anyone. Who were they to argue with such an important man of religion?

This is The Crusades I speak against. A holy war! God forbid we should ever again be like the muslims and preach a holy war.

Immie

[darin]

What about the Mormons who ring your doorbell? And doesn't your church have "outreach" people who visit those that have just moved into the neighborhood, trying to get them to show up at church next Sunday?


How is that forcing ANYTHING? It's pure insanity to think mormons at your door is them 'forcing' anything. Mormons are perhaps the BEST neighbors to have. And when the DO come to your door, every mormon I've met there says "Just checking to see if you need any help with anything around the house." Or "Hey, we attend this church - maybe you should visit?"

Look at what you wrote "Trying to get them to show up at Church...".

Now - TRYING to get people to church equates to FORCING a belief on somebody? How ridiculous or weak-willed are YOU? lmao :)

Look -a church is a SERVICE to a community.


You talk to people in their graves? :confused:

No. I speak to people who are Dead. They are physically alive, but spiritually dead.

[typomaniac]

How is that forcing ANYTHING? It's pure insanity to think mormons at your door is them 'forcing' anything. Mormons are perhaps the BEST neighbors to have. And when the DO come to your door, every mormon I've met there says "Just checking to see if you need any help with anything around the house." Or "Hey, we attend this church - maybe you should visit?"

Look at what you wrote "Trying to get them to show up at Church...".

Now - TRYING to get people to church equates to FORCING a belief on somebody? How ridiculous or weak-willed are YOU?

You're missing a major point.

In its long history, Judaism has never (ever) actively looked for new people to recruit. They have been open to those who would seek them out, but that's as far as it goes. IMO in a perfect world, every religion would behave like this. If different spiritual paths didn't work better - or worse - for different people, there would be only one religion. So, who better to choose your own spiritual path than you yourself? I might like my neighbors a lot, but I probably wouldn't let them choose my next car for me, let alone my religion. :)

[Dilloduck]

How is that forcing ANYTHING? It's pure insanity to think mormons at your door is them 'forcing' anything. Mormons are perhaps the BEST neighbors to have. And when the DO come to your door, every mormon I've met there says "Just checking to see if you need any help with anything around the house." Or "Hey, we attend this church - maybe you should visit?"

Look at what you wrote "Trying to get them to show up at Church...".

Now - TRYING to get people to church equates to FORCING a belief on somebody? How ridiculous or weak-willed are YOU? lmao :)

Look -a church is a SERVICE to a community.



No. I speak to people who are Dead. They are physically alive, but spiritually dead.


Therefore, if you “complain” about how much you are being tested, you are dead. You’re simply defending your pride, feeling sorry for yourself and demanding that the world notice your pain. But being a Christian involves recognizing your feelings of hurt and then resolving to speak about them charitably and calmly without demanding anything. If others listen to you, fine. Work with them to find a solution to the problem, as you have done by writing to me. And if they fail to hear you, well, pray for their repentance and let the dead bury the dead.

http://www.chastitysf.com/q_dead.htm

(Bold mine)

[darin]

Okay Dillo - care to explain any sort of point you're trying to make?

[avatar4321]

What about the Mormons who ring your doorbell? And doesn't your church have "outreach" people who visit those that have just moved into the neighborhood, trying to get them to show up at church next Sunday?



You talk to people in their graves? :confused:

i was unaware that people trying to talk to you was somehow forcing religion onto you. Im sorry your such an easily influenced person.