Why do you reject Religion?

[darin]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.

[Missileman]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.

Religion is dismissable for a myriad of better reasons than the existence of hypocrites. However, that there are "believers" who routinely place their standing with their deity at risk tells me that there are a lot of people who are either really stupid or they don't REALLY believe in their religion. Either way, hypocrites have no credibility.

[diuretic]

I dno't make value judgements about people who profess religion and act outside the tenets of their religion, that's between them and their conscience. I'm not religious because I don't believe in a deity, simple as that.

[Guernicaa]

It's hard for me to answer this question.

I don't "reject" all parts of religion.

There are parts of religion that I reject:
-Christianitys story of creationism.
-The bible contradicts itself WAY too many times, which suggests that they are merely stories, and not the true word of god:


Christians need to think:
In one area of the bible, it says no homosexuals, but do you know what else it says no too? Eating shelfish.
Does that stop Christians from eating shelfish?

[darin]

It's hard for me to answer this question.

I don't "reject" all parts of religion.

There are parts of religion that I reject:
-Christianitys story of creationism.
-The bible contradicts itself WAY too many times, which suggests that they are merely stories, and not the true word of god:


Christians need to think:
In one area of the bible, it says no homosexuals, but do you know what else it says no too? Eating shelfish.
Does that stop Christians from eating shelfish?

I deleted a LOT of what you posted because you didn't cite a course. And let me help you keep this thread about religion and NOT a thread so you can attempt to prove one particular belief to be false.

;)

[PostmodernProphet]

The bible contradicts itself WAY too many times

that's some pretty sad shit you quoted, there Obama....I suspect I know where you got it and I am surprised you thought you could get away with it.....

not going to waste a whole lot of time with it, but for example....

"In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?
(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
(b) One million, one hundred thousand (IChronicles 21:5)"

2 Samuel 24
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

that makes a total of 1.3 million

1 Chronicles 21
5In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah.

ah you say, but that still leaves us 200,000 short....true, but in verse 6 it states that number did not include the men in the tribes of Levi and Benjamin


all the rest of the comparisons in the list can be handled similarly, but I refuse to take the time to do it again.....

[PostmodernProphet]

except this one, this one is one of my favorites....

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
(a) Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)
(b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)

1 Kings 4
26 Solomon had four thousand stalls for chariot horses, and twelve thousand horses.

1 Chronicles 9
25 Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horses

check it out if you don't believe me
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%209;&version=31;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20kings%204;&version=31;

gotta love it.....

[diuretic]

It's hard for me to answer this question.

I don't "reject" all parts of religion.

There are parts of religion that I reject:
-Christianitys story of creationism.
-The bible contradicts itself WAY too many times, which suggests that they are merely stories, and not the true word of god:


Christians need to think:
In one area of the bible, it says no homosexuals, but do you know what else it says no too? Eating shelfish.
Does that stop Christians from eating shelfish?

From memory the shellfish prohibition is in Deuteronomy. Actually it's highly practical. You know how dodgy shellfish can be even in a stable society with modern food hygiene practices it's always possible to get a bad prawn. So for a nomadic, desert-dwelling group, it would be wise to avoid food that is likely to make its members sick. Pretty horrible trailing around the desert with a severe case of food poisoning. In other words, you have to look at context and not fall for the fundie fallacy.

[avatar4321]

people reject religion because they lack personal experience with God. They dont do what it takes to get to know Him. So they dont.

[diuretic]

people reject religion because they lack personal experience with God. They dont do what it takes to get to know Him. So they dont.

Since you apparenty haven't rejected religion why do you feel it's necessary to chip in and make judgement on those who have been invited to explain some important personal views?

[avatar4321]

Since you apparenty haven't rejected religion why do you feel it's necessary to chip in and make judgement on those who have been invited to explain some important personal views?

because the truth is the truth no matter the source.

[manu1959]

people reject religion because they lack personal experience with God. They dont do what it takes to get to know Him. So they dont.

i belived in god for about 15 / 20 years....then too many bad things happend in my life that were explained as god's plan and god's will.....god seemed very mean and vindictive and everything was some sort of test to prove you were worthy.....

religion still interests me ..... but i am reluctant to enter into a realtionship agian.....

time will tell...

[diuretic]

because the truth is the truth no matter the source.

That's not a defensible statement, that's a meaningless cliche.

[diuretic]

i belived in god for about 15 / 20 years....then too many bad things happend in my life that were explained as god's plan and god's will.....god seemed very mean and vindictive and everything was some sort of test to prove you were worthy.....

religion still interests me ..... but i am reluctant to enter into a realtionship agian.....

time will tell...

Is it that your faith was tested? That's interesting. I didn't go through the same experience. I remember the day that I sat and thought about it and it just seemed to me to be irrational to believe in a deity. Nothing more than that.

[manu1959]

Is it that your faith was tested? That's interesting. I didn't go through the same experience. I remember the day that I sat and thought about it and it just seemed to me to be irrational to believe in a deity. Nothing more than that.

i was young....my family believed....when a half a dozen family members around me all died ..... all the nice kind ones......dad, grandpa, uncle, young cousin, aunt, grandma's.....

i was told it was god's will / plan ....

in my opinion god took all the good ones and left all the assholes ....

didn't seem like a very nice god ..... i moved on ....

[Missileman]

people reject religion because they lack personal experience with God. They dont do what it takes to get to know Him. So they dont.

That's a nicely formulated circular argument. Feel free to substitute "religion" and "God" with "Christmas" and "Santa Claus", "Easter" and "The Easter Bunny", "Science Fiction" and "aliens"...also substitute "them" for "Him", or "porn" and "Jenna Jameson"...also sustitute "her" for "Him". Any of those will keep you going in a similar circle and make as little sense as your original argument.

[diuretic]

i was young....my family believed....when a half a dozen family members around me all died ..... all the nice kind ones......dad, grandpa, uncle, young cousin, aunt, grandma's.....

i was told it was god's will / plan ....

in my opinion god took all the good ones and left all the assholes ....

didn't seem like a very nice god ..... i moved on ....

Understandable for a child to respond in that way when what effectively happened is that God was blamed for their deaths. I know it's easy for me to say but if you (the child, not you as an adult) had it explained to you that people die and sometimes they die unexpectedly and nice people as well as not so nice people die unexpectedly and that's part of life, maybe your faith wouldn't have been tested so unreasonably.

[Guernicaa]

people reject religion because they lack personal experience with God. They dont do what it takes to get to know Him. So they dont.
lol thats bull.

[Guernicaa]

Avatars argument is that you can't develop a personal relationship with god without religion. Which is again, complete bull shit.

There are a lot of people who believe in a higher being, quite similar to the Christian form of what a higher being is, but don't believe that practicing all the other stuff that a book of stories says is necessary.

[manu1959]

Understandable for a child to respond in that way when what effectively happened is that God was blamed for their deaths. I know it's easy for me to say but if you (the child, not you as an adult) had it explained to you that people die and sometimes they die unexpectedly and nice people as well as not so nice people die unexpectedly and that's part of life, maybe your faith wouldn't have been tested so unreasonably.

i have been recently told the whole thing was a test and i failed.....i told that person that i had no idea the the meaning of life was a test and that i was unaware it was pass fail.....

it will interesting to see what happens when i die......til then....i will live my life as best i can and leave it up to my wife kids and the people i meet to determine if i did a good job.....if there is a god and if i fail god's test.....then so be it.....but i will leave it for god to decide that not some church or some christian or a book .....

[darin]

Avatars argument is that you can't develop a personal relationship with god without religion. Which is again, complete bull shit.

There are a lot of people who believe in a higher being, quite similar to the Christian form of what a higher being is, but don't believe that practicing all the other stuff that a book of stories says is necessary.

Christians believe "all the other stuff" is necessary. Christians believe they alone have access to God. In fact, I'd wager ANY faith worth it's nuts thinks the same.

:D

[diuretic]

i have been recently told the whole thing was a test and i failed.....i told that person that i had no idea the the meaning of life was a test and that i was unaware it was pass fail.....

it will interesting to see what happens when i die......til then....i will live my life as best i can and leave it up to my wife kids and the people i meet to determine if i did a good job.....if there is a god and if i fail god's test.....then so be it.....but i will leave it for god to decide that not some church or some christian or a book .....

You've had some mean bastards interfering in your life, if I may say so. I don't understand the theology that lies behind those assertions.

I'll stick my nose in and suggest that some wider reading might be useful. Have a read of this - http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm - and see how it goes, it's the Catechism of the Roman Catholic church so if you're vehemently anti-Catholic you should give it a miss.

But if you think that you may get something out of reading a theogically sound and well-crafted view of the relation between humans and God then it might have something for you.

[JackDaniels]

I dno't make value judgements about people who profess religion and act outside the tenets of their religion, that's between them and their conscience. I'm not religious because I don't believe in a deity, simple as that.

I completely agree with you. My atheism is built on the simple foundation that it is not logical to believe in God.

[manu1959]

You've had some mean bastards interfering in your life, if I may say so. I don't understand the theology that lies behind those assertions.

I'll stick my nose in and suggest that some wider reading might be useful. Have a read of this - http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm - and see how it goes, it's the Catechism of the Roman Catholic church so if you're vehemently anti-Catholic you should give it a miss.

But if you think that you may get something out of reading a theogically sound and well-crafted view of the relation between humans and God then it might have something for you.

yes there are mean bastards on both sides......i enjoy the philosphy part of religon....the hardcore dogmatic part leaves me cold ..... i belive one can have a relationship with god and live the life without a church......one of my favourite discussions with.....two of my three closest friends are very "christian" or so they claim .... and two other aquaintenaces are pastors.....i get plenty of information ...... wife is into it .... she started a bible study for dummies....people loved it....

we shall see what happens.....an open mind creates endless possibilities...

[Yurt]

i have been recently told the whole thing was a test and i failed.....i told that person that i had no idea the the meaning of life was a test and that i was unaware it was pass fail.....

it will interesting to see what happens when i die......til then....i will live my life as best i can and leave it up to my wife kids and the people i meet to determine if i did a good job.....if there is a god and if i fail god's test.....then so be it.....but i will leave it for god to decide that not some church or some christian or a book .....

Good point, because the book says only God knows our ultimate fate. Can't even buy your way into heaven....

[SpidermanTUba]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons,
though.




Anything which attempts to prevent individual thought is no good.

[avatar4321]

That's not a defensible statement, that's a meaningless cliche.

What's to defend? Are you saying truth is somehow less true because it comes from a source you dont like or says something you disagree with?

The fact is peopel disbelieve because they havent had experience with God. People can believe without such experiences. But once youve had such experiences its impossible to not believe because you know that there is a God.

[avatar4321]

That's a nicely formulated circular argument. Feel free to substitute "religion" and "God" with "Christmas" and "Santa Claus", "Easter" and "The Easter Bunny", "Science Fiction" and "aliens"...also substitute "them" for "Him", or "porn" and "Jenna Jameson"...also sustitute "her" for "Him". Any of those will keep you going in a similar circle and make as little sense as your original argument.

There is nothing circular about what I said. Just as there is nothing rational about what you said.

[avatar4321]

Anything which attempts to prevent individual thought is no good.

The point of individual thought is to propel people to learn and discover the truth. Individual thought is a means and not an ends.

[diuretic]

What's to defend? Are you saying truth is somehow less true because it comes from a source you dont like or says something you disagree with?

No.



The fact is peopel disbelieve because they havent had experience with God. People can believe without such experiences. But once youve had such experiences its impossible to not believe because you know that there is a God.

I don't meant to be difficult but simply because someone says they have had an experience with God doesn't mean they have. The only truth in that statement is that someone is saying that they have had an experience with God.

The fact is - that speaking for myself, it just occurred to me that there was no deity. So that sort of tosses out your claim that "people disbelieve because they haven't had experience with God".

See what I mean? This is all totally subjective, there is no objective "truth" in this discussion.

[diuretic]

The point of individual thought is to propel people to learn and discover the truth. Individual thought is a means and not an ends.

First part I disagree with, second part I agree with. And that's because we're coming at the issue from very different perspectives.

[PostmodernProphet]

I completely agree with you. My atheism is built on the simple foundation that it is not logical to believe in God.

However, it is necessary to make some foundational faith choices before a legitimate logical framework can be constructed that leads you to that conclusion......

[PostmodernProphet]

This is all totally subjective, there is no objective "truth" in this discussion.

you can't honestly say that.....

consider a hypothetical where A=B.....the first person believes A does not equal B and he argues that 'truth' in a debate.....the second person believes A equals B, but has reached that conclusion through an error in reasoning, he argues in the debate but everyone recoginizes his error and rejects his argument.....the third person believes that A equals B and argues it in the debate.....

now, throughout the debate the objective truth remains that A=B, it didn't change into something else because of the debate.....

likewise, in this debate, either a deity exists or a deity does not exist.....that objective truth does not change because of our discussion.....

[diuretic]

However, it is necessary to make some foundational faith choices before a legitimate logical framework can be constructed that leads you to that conclusion......

I would think it's incumbent on parents to introduce their child to the prevailing religious ideas of their society and then gradually allow their child, as he or she matures, to make their own decisions. As the child develops intellectually then they can begin to formulate their personal philosophies.

[PostmodernProphet]

I would think it's incumbent on parents to introduce their child to the prevailing religious ideas of their society and then gradually allow their child, as he or she matures, to make their own decisions. As the child develops intellectually then they can begin to formulate their personal philosophies.

???.....a very strange concept......I am already aware of the truth, why would I want my child to grow up and choose something that isn't true.....if I seriously believed there was some chance my faith choice WASN'T the truth, I would have rejected it myself, already......

I expect that is true of every other parent who has made a religious faith choice.....

in fact, if you consider it, it is consistent with the faith choice you have made.....you are uncertain, therefore you want your child raised up to be uncertain.....:poke:

[diuretic]

Fine if you like indoctrination. Just don't whine when your child grows up and realises it.

[PostmodernProphet]

Fine if you like indoctrination. Just don't whine when your child grows up and realises it.

only in the sense that all of education is 'indoctrination'.....

[diuretic]

only in the sense that all of education is 'indoctrination'.....

Education isn't indoctrination, in fact it's the polar opposite.

[PostmodernProphet]

/shrugs.....then so is educating my children about my religion.....

[dan]

I consider myself agnostic. To me, there's too much in the world that seems to work for it all to be a massive cosmic accident. It could be, though, who knows?

I reject specific religions for a few reasons. First, the obvious hypocracy that comes with most all religions, not just Christianity. I'm trying to keep this away from being specifically about Christianity, but I was raised Methodist, so obviously the only religion I'm rejecting is Christianity.

The Bible was written at a time when people were very, very, very ignorant. It offends people to suggest such things about the disciples, but the fact is, the world in general simply hadn't developed enough. I think through science and reason, we have evolved beyond religion.

I also agree with Manu about the nature of the Christian God, though I didn't go through the personal strife he did in order to come to that conclusion. When I look at the many, many, many tragic things that befall good people on a daily basis, I can't bring myself to accept the idea that I should worship a God that allowed this to happen, or even designed this to happen. I could absolutely be wrong, but to me, the idea of life being nothing but a test for us to prove our will as a Christian is outrageous. Why would God create humans for the sole purpose of worshipping him? Am I the only one who finds that disturbingly egotistical?

There is no connection between the world described in the Bible and the world today. Hyperbole aside, when has there ever been a miracle in recorded history like those described in the Bible? So much of what the Bible writes off as God's work has been explained through science, it's hard to take much of what it says seriously.

I think every religion has something to offer. I think the Bible offers a great set of stories on how to live a good honest life. It is very dated, and taking very specific things it says and applying them to modern life is very dangerous. I have nothing against most Christians, but quite a few of them use God as their loophole to just blindly believe what they believe, and if they're challenged, it's just "That's God's will. :shrug:" This is fine, until people start applying this to the world at large, and then that becomes a major problem. I don't think we need to abolish religion, by any means, it's just not for me.

[Hagbard Celine]

I've never felt a need for religion. I've never "felt" God's presence and I've never felt a need to. Period. People talk about "feeling spiritually empty." I guess I was born without that emotion. Getting up early and dressing in uncomfortable clothes to go to a place full of people you barely know or like to listen to something that contradicts every logical thought in your brain has always seemed like a really ill-conceived way to waste one of the only two days you have off all week. I'd rather go bowling with my family on Sunday morning, which is actually what my family did for a couple of years back when I was in highschool.

[PostmodernProphet]

Hyperbole aside, when has there ever been a miracle in recorded history like those described in the Bible?

/shrugs....there are many people who say they have experienced miracles in today's world.....they are not believed by most, but then I wonder if most folks in Jesus' day believed people when they said "Yeah, last week I was a leper but Jesus cured me" or "they fed all 5000 of us with just three fish and a loaf of bread"......

[PostmodernProphet]

Getting up early and dressing in uncomfortable clothes to go to a place full of people you barely know or like to listen to something that contradicts every logical thought in your brain

so what if there was a church you could go to late, dress comfortably, meet with friends you like and get along with and hear things that made sense to you?

[Hagbard Celine]

so what if there was a church you could go to late, dress comfortably, meet with friends you like and get along with and hear things that made sense to you?

I still wouldn't go. If I want to learn about God I'll read a book about it. I have a busy life and I've never been one to subject myself to abject torture (sitting in a lecture listening to some putz) when there are fun and/or industrious things I could do instead. Hey, different strokes for different folks. That's one of my philosophies.

[truthmatters]

I would think it's incumbent on parents to introduce their child to the prevailing religious ideas of their society and then gradually allow their child, as he or she matures, to make their own decisions. As the child develops intellectually then they can begin to formulate their personal philosophies.

I told my son when the subject of religion came up about the differing things people believe. That satisfied him for some time. Then when he was about 4 he asked for the first time "what do we believe"? I then told him what I believed and told him what he believed was up to him. He may be the only person I know who was allowed to deside what he believed without someone cramming it down his throat.

[hjmick]

Clarence Darrow sums things up nicely fo me:


Why I Am An Agnostic
Clarence Darrow

An agnostic is a doubter. The word is generally applied to those who doubt the verity of accepted religious creeds of faiths. Everyone is an agnostic as to the beliefs or creeds they do not accept. Catholics are agnostic to the Protestant creeds, and the Protestants are agnostic to the Catholic creed. Any one who thinks is an agnostic about something, otherwise he must believe that he is possessed of all knowledge. And the proper place for such a person is in the madhouse or the home for the feeble-minded. In a popular way, in the western world, an agnostic is one who doubts or disbelieves the main tenets of the Christian faith.
I would say that belief in at least three tenets is necessary to the faith of a Christian: a belief in God, a belief in immortality, and a belief in a supernatural book. Various Christian sects require much more, but it is difficult to imagine that one could be a Christian, under any intelligent meaning of the word, with less. Yet there are some people who claim to be Christians who do not accept the literal interpretation of all the Bible, and who give more credence to some portions of the book than to others.

I am an agnostic as to the question of God. I think that it is impossible for the human mind to believe in an object or thing unless it can form a mental picture of such object or thing. Since man ceased to worship openly an anthropomorphic God and talked vaguely and not intelligently about some force in the universe, higher than man, that is responsible for the existence of man and the universe, he cannot be said to believe in God. One cannot believe in a force excepting as a force that pervades matter and is not an individual entity. To believe in a thing, an image of the thing must be stamped on the mind. If one is asked if he believes in such an animal as a camel, there immediately arises in his mind an image of the camel. This image has come from experience or knowledge of the animal gathered in some way or other. No such image comes, or can come, with the idea of a God who is described as a force.

Man has always speculated upon the origin of the universe, including himself. I feel, with Herbert Spencer, that whether the universe had an origin-- and if it had-- what the origin is will never be known by man. The Christian says that the universe could not make itself; that there must have been some higher power to call it into being. Christians have been obsessed for many years by Paley's argument that if a person passing through a desert should find a watch and examine its spring, its hands, its case and its crystal, he would at once be satisfied that some intelligent being capable of design had made the watch. No doubt this is true. No civilized man would question that someone made the watch. The reason he would not doubt it is because he is familiar with watches and other appliances made by man. The savage was once unfamiliar with a watch and would have had no idea upon the subject. There are plenty of crystals and rocks of natural formation that are as intricate as a watch, but even to intelligent man they carry no implication that some intelligent power must have made them. They carry no such implication because no one has any knowledge or experience of someone having made these natural objects which everywhere abound.

To say that God made the universe gives us no explanation of the beginnings of things. If we are told that God made the universe, the question immediately arises: Who made God? Did he always exist, or was there some power back of that? Did he create matter out of nothing, or is his existence coextensive with matter? The problem is still there. What is the origin of it all? If, on the other hand, one says that the universe was not made by God, that it always existed, he has the same difficulty to confront. To say that the universe was here last year, or millions of years ago, does not explain its origin. This is still a mystery. As to the question of the origin of things, man can only wonder and doubt and guess.

As to the existence of the soul, all people may either believe or disbelieve. Everyone knows the origin of the human being. They know that it came from a single cell in the body of the mother, and that the cell was one out of ten thousand in the mother's body. Before gestation the cell must have been fertilized by a spermatozoon from the body of the father. This was one out of perhaps a billion spermatozoa that was the capacity of the father. When the cell is fertilized a chemical process begins. The cell divides and multiplies and increases into millions of cells, and finally a child is born. Cells die and are born during the life of the individual until they finally drop apart, and this is death.

If there is a soul, what is it, and where did it come from, and where does it go? Can anyone who is guided by his reason possibly imagine a soul independent of a body, or the place of its residence, or the character of it, or anything concerning it? If man is justified in any belief or disbelief on any subject, he is warranted in the disbelief in a soul. Not one scrap of evidence exists to prove any such impossible thing.

Many Christians base the belief of a soul and God upon the Bible. Strictly speaking, there is no such book. To make the Bible, sixty-six books are bound into one volume. These books are written by many people at different times, and no one knows the time or the identity of any author. Some of the books were written by several authors at various times. These books contain all sorts of contradictory concepts of life and morals and the origin of things. Between the first and the last nearly a thousand years intervened, a longer time than has passed since the discovery of America by Columbus.

When I was a boy the theologians used to assert that the proof of the divine inspiration of the Bible rested on miracles and prophecies. But a miracle means a violation of a natural law, and there can be no proof imagined that could be sufficient to show the violation of a natural law; even though proof seemed to show violation, it would only show that we were not acquainted with all natural laws. One believes in the truthfulness of a man because of his long experience with the man, and because the man has always told a consistent story. But no man has told so consistent a story as nature.

If one should say that the sun did not rise, to use the ordinary expression, on the day before, his hearer would not believe it, even though he had slept all day and knew that his informant was a man of the strictest veracity. He would not believe it because the story is inconsistent with the conduct of the sun in all the ages past.

Primitive and even civilized people have grown so accustomed to believing in miracles that they often attribute the simplest manifestations of nature to agencies of which they know nothing. They do this when the belief is utterly inconsistent with knowledge and logic. They believe in old miracles and new ones. Preachers pray for rain, knowing full well that no such prayer was ever answered. When a politician is sick, they pray for God to cure him, and the politician almost invariably dies. The modern clergyman who prays for rain and for the health of the politician is no more intelligent in this matter than the primitive man who saw a separate miracle in the rising and setting of the sun, in the birth of an individual, in the growth of a plant, in the stroke of lighting, in the flood, in every manifestation of nature and life.

As to prophecies, intelligent writers gave them up long ago. In all prophecies facts are made to suit the prophecy, or the prophecy was made after the facts, or the events have no relation to the prophecy. Weird and strange and unreasonable interpretations are used to explain simple statements, that a prophecy may be claimed.

Can any rational person believe that the Bible is anything but a human document? We now know pretty well where the various books came from, and about when they were written. We know that they were written by human beings who had no knowledge of science, little knowledge of life, and were influenced by the barbarous morality of primitive times, and were grossly ignorant of most things that men know today. For instance, Genesis says that God made the earth, and he made the sun to light the day and the moon to light the night, and in one clause disposes of the stars by saying that "he made the stars also." This was plainly written by someone who had no conception of the stars. Man, by the aid of his telescope, has looked out into the heavens and found stars whose diameter is as great as the distance between the earth and the sun. We know that the universe is filled with stars and suns and planets and systems. Every new telescope looking further into the heavens only discovers more and more worlds and suns and systems in the endless reaches of space. The men who wrote Genesis believed, of course, that this tiny speck of mud that we call the earth was the center of the universe, the only world in space, and made for man, who was the only being worth considering. These men believed that the stars were only a little way above the earth, and were set in the firmament for man to look at, and for nothing else. Everyone today knows that this conception is not true.

The origin of the human race is not as blind a subject as it once was. Let alone God creating Adam out of hand, from the dust of the earth, does anyone believe that Eve was made from Adam's rib--that the snake walked and spoke in the Garden of Eden--that he tempted Eve to persuade Adam to eat an apple, and that it is on that account that the whole human race was doomed to hell--that for four thousand years there was no chance for any human to be saved, though none of them had anything whatever to do with the temptation; and that finally men were saved only through God's son dying for them, and that unless human beings believed this silly, impossible and wicked story they were doomed to hell? Can anyone with intelligence really believe that a child born today should be doomed because the snake tempted Eve and Eve tempted Adam? To believe that is not God-worship; it is devil-worship.

Can anyone call this scheme of creation and damnation moral? It defies every principle of morality, as man conceives morality. Can anyone believe today that the whole world was destroyed by flood, save only Noah and his family and a male and female of each species of animal that entered the Ark? There are almost a million species of insects alone. How did Noah match these up and make sure of getting male and female to reproduce life in the world after the flood had spent its force? And why should all the lower animals have been destroyed? Were they included in the sinning of man? This is a story which could not beguile a fairly bright child of five years of age today.

Do intelligent people believe that the various languages spoken by man on earth came from the confusion of tongues at the Tower of Babel, some four thousand years ago? Human languages were dispersed all over the face of the earth long before that time. Evidences of civilizations are in existence now that were old long before the date that romancers fix for the building of the Tower, and even before the date claimed for the flood.

Do Christians believe that Joshua made the sun stand still, so that the day could be lengthened, that a battle might be finished? What kind of person wrote that story, and what did he know about astronomy? It is perfectly plain that the author thought that the earth was the center of the universe and stood still in the heavens, and that the sun either went around it or was pulled across its path each day, and that the stopping of the sun would lengthen the day. We know now that had the sun stopped when Joshua commanded it, and had it stood still until now, it would not have lengthened the day. We know that the day is determined by the rotation of the earth upon its axis, and not by the movement of the sun. Everyone knows that this story simply is not true, and not many even pretend to believe the childish fable.

What of the tale of Balaam's ass speaking to him, probably in Hebrew? Is it true, or is it a fable? Many asses have spoken, and doubtless some in Hebrew, but they have not been that breed of asses. Is salvation to depend on a belief in a monstrosity like this?

Above all the rest, would any human being today believe that a child was born without a father? Yet this story was not at all unreasonable in the ancient world; at least three or four miraculous births are recorded in the Bible, including John the Baptist and Samson. Immaculate conceptions were common in the Roman world at the time and at the place where Christianity really had its nativity. Women were taken to the temples to be inoculated of God so that their sons might be heroes, which meant, generally, wholesale butchers. Julius Caesar was a miraculous conception--indeed, they were common all over the world. How many miraculous-birth stories is a Christian now expected to believe?

In the days of the formation of the Christian religion, disease meant the possession of human beings by devils. Christ cured a sick man by casting out the devils, who ran into the swine, and the swine ran into the sea. Is there any question but what that was simply the attitude and belief of a primitive people? Does anyone believe that sickness means the possession of the body by devils, and that the devils must be cast out of the human being that he may be cured? Does anyone believe that a dead person can come to life? The miracles recorded in the Bible are not the only instances of dead men coming to life. All over the world one finds testimony of such miracles: miracles which no person is expected to believe, unless it is his kind of a miracle. Still at Lourdes today, and all over the present world, from New York to Los Angeles and up and down the lands, people believe in miraculous occurrences, and even in the return of the dead. Superstition is everywhere prevalent in the world. It has been so from the beginning, and most likely will be so unto the end.

The reasons for agnosticism are abundant and compelling. Fantastic and foolish and impossible consequences are freely claimed for the belief in religion. All the civilization of any period is put down as a result of religion. All the cruelty and error and ignorance of the period has no relation to religion.

The truth is that the origin of what we call civilization is not due to religion but to skepticism. So long as men accepted miracles without question, so long as they believed in original sin and the road to salvation, so long as they believed in a hell where man would be kept for eternity on account of Eve, there was no reason whatever for civilization: life was short, and eternity was long, and the business of life was preparation for eternity.

When every event was a miracle, when there was no order or system or law, there was no occasion for studying any subject, or being interested in anything excepting a religion which took care of the soul. As man doubted the primitive conceptions about religion, and no longer accepted the literal, miraculous teachings of ancient books, he set himself to understand nature. We no longer cure disease by casting out devils. Since that time, men have studied the human body, have built hospitals and treated illness in a scientific way. Science is responsible for the building of railroads and bridges, of steamships, of telegraph lines, of cities, towns, large buildings and small, plumbing and sanitation, of the food supply, and the countless thousands of useful things that we now deem necessary to life. Without skepticism and doubt, none of these things could have been given to the world.

The fear of God is not the beginning of wisdom. The fear of God is the death of wisdom. Skepticism and doubt lead to study and investigation, and investigation is the beginning of wisdom.

The modern world is the child of doubt and inquiry, as the ancient world was the child of fear and faith.

Why I Am Agnostic (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/clarence_darrow/why_i_am_an_agnostic.html)


Robert Ingersoll also does an excellent job of summing things up for me:

Robert G. Ingersoll: Why I am Agnostic (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ingag.htm)

[gabosaurus]

I believe that a lot of it is upbringing. If you were not raised in a religious home (like my sister and I), you don't develop religious values.
Most traits are like that. If you grow up in a military family, you tend to follow that. If you parents are atheists, that is generally what you believe. Same with Catholics, Jews or any other faith.
I found religion almost by accident. When I was a freshman in college, my roommate was Catholic. She was uncomfortable going to church by herself, so I went with her a few times. The Catholic faith did not appeal to me. I found them to be cold and unwelcoming to outsiders.
One of my suitemates then invited me to her services, at a non-denominational faith-based church in Oakland. Sometimes the Holy Spirit finds strange places to speak to you.

I can't speak out against those who mock religion, since I used to be one of those. If you grow up not believing, it takes something special to change your mind.

[hjmick]

If you grow up not believing, it takes something special to change your mind.

I grew up believing, it took Inherit the Wind to change my mind. I'd say that was special.

[April15]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.
I reject god and religion because the basic premise of them is rooted in controlling minds. When god was first conceived the concept was to use the good go to heaven and those who do bad go to eternal pain and suffering for the purpose of keeping slaves in a state of peaceful servitude. As long as the slave suffered here he would have an afterlife of peace and tranquility. If the slave revolted he would spend all of eternity in pain.
This also kept crime in check for the most part. With the punishment for most any crime being death most choose to suffer rather than risk death for a few pleasures as the glorious afterlife was worth the suffering.

[SpidermanTUba]

The point of individual thought is to propel people to learn and discover the truth. Individual thought is a means and not an ends.



And the point of religion is to shackle people and obscure the truth.

[manu1959]

And the point of religion is to shackle people and obscure the truth.


that is so far from the point of religion it is laughable.....

[diuretic]

/shrugs.....then so is educating my children about my religion.....

Do they get a choice about which religion they are educated in?

[diuretic]

I told my son when the subject of religion came up about the differing things people believe. That satisfied him for some time. Then when he was about 4 he asked for the first time "what do we believe"? I then told him what I believed and told him what he believed was up to him. He may be the only person I know who was allowed to deside what he believed without someone cramming it down his throat.

I wonder if a child grew up without any notion of religion or deity would they begin to look for religion or a deity?

[diuretic]

that is so far from the point of religion it is laughable.....

Don't laugh yet, your turn hasn't come around. If "use" is linked to "purpose" then yes, religion's purpose is to shackle people and obscure the truth.

[PostmodernProphet]

Do they get a choice about which religion they are educated in?


of course not....do you deliberately teach YOUR children ignorance?


religion's purpose is to shackle people and obscure the truth.

ah, perhaps you do.....

[manu1959]

Don't laugh yet, your turn hasn't come around. If "use" is linked to "purpose" then yes, religion's purpose is to shackle people and obscure the truth.

that is absurd......are your telling my jesus for example spread the word of god to shackle people and obscure the truth......

shackle to what end and obscure what truth....

[diuretic]

of course not....do you deliberately teach YOUR children ignorance?

So you're indoctrinating your children in your choice of religion. That's fine, just wanted to get that cleared up.




ah, perhaps you do.....

Ah, the temptation for an ad hom was too much wasn't it? :laugh2:

[diuretic]

that is absurd......are your telling my jesus for example spread the word of god to shackle people and obscure the truth......

shackle to what end and obscure what truth....

Who said anything about Jesus or Christianity for that matter? Although it is true that Christianity has been used to shackle people and obscure the truth, yes. But then so have many other religions.

To your second point. Religion is one of the oldest tools of human control and oppression - and please note, I'm referring to "religion" so don't get yer knickers all twisted up with you thinking I'm having a go at Jesus, try to think broadly about religion.

[manu1959]

Who said anything about Jesus or Christianity for that matter? Although it is true that Christianity has been used to shackle people and obscure the truth, yes. But then so have many other religions.

To your second point. Religion is one of the oldest tools of human control and oppression - and please note, I'm referring to "religion" so don't get yer knickers all twisted up with you thinking I'm having a go at Jesus, try to think broadly about religion.

the purpose of guns is not to murder innocent people but they are used for that purpose......

tell me what is the purpose of religion....why do the prophets spread the words....to control people or free them....many things can be perverted

[avatar4321]

And the point of religion is to shackle people and obscure the truth.

you wouldnt know truth if it but you on the nose tubs. that's already well established.

Divine revelation can teach all truth if you let it.

[diuretic]

the purpose of guns is not to murder innocent people but they are used for that purpose......

tell me what is the purpose of religion....why do the prophets spread the words....to control people or free them....many things can be perverted

I'm going to hypothesise first and then point to evidence. Okay, first with the hypothesis. When humans became "human", when we developed a sense of self-awareness we began to see our place in the world and we got pretty skeered. The place was wild, it was dangerous being a puny human. Aside from dangerous animals there was the weather (something we still worry about :laugh2:). Someone, smarter than the rest, claimed to be able to communicate with the gods, the Earth god, the Moon god, the Rain god and so on. The others, not as smart, thought this was pretty good and decided that the shaman was the boss. The shaman liked the power and made sure he used it and got his own way, after all, he communicated with the gods.

There are plenty of examples where humans claimed a divine link for the purpose of power. The Japanese Emperors, the Pharaohs are just two. They are descendants of my hypothesised shamans. I won't go on and on because it's all bit self-evident that religion has been used for power, for control, across the centuries to where we are now. And it hasn't changed. It's in our nature to want a god, to want an afterlife, we're the animal cursed with the self-awareness of our own mortality and we need these myths, the upshot is that the myth-owners, the religionists, are able to use our tendency towards religion for their own purposes.

[PostmodernProphet]

Okay, first with the hypothesis. When humans became "human", when we developed a sense of self-awareness we began to see our place in the world and we got pretty skeered. The place was wild, it was dangerous being a puny human. Aside from dangerous animals there was the weather (something we still worry about ). Someone, smarter than the rest, claimed to be able to communicate with the gods, the Earth god, the Moon god, the Rain god and so on. The others, not as smart, thought this was pretty good and decided that the shaman was the boss. The shaman liked the power and made sure he used it and got his own way, after all, he communicated with the gods.


I work from a different hypothesis.....when man first became self-aware, God said "Good morning!....how did you sleep last night?....meet me down by the creek, I have a few things I want you to do.....and if we have time this afternoon, we'll see about mixing you up a woman"..........

[PostmodernProphet]

religion for their own purposes

religion is the word which describes what people do in response to the god they acknowledge....if it ever attains a purpose of it's own, it would be error....

[Said1]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.

I reject each religious denomination because it sets too many limits and boundaries and is persistent in it's individual righteousness. Which is fine, if that's the path you chose.

Faith on the other hand, does not accept any authority other than God and does not place any ownership on God. In my opinion, having faith and accepting religious dogmata are not the same. I don't reject God, just all religious denominations representing the word of God.


Don't get me wrong,though. I understand people who do their best to live their lives by the gospel and have very strong faith in God etc. I also understand the need.......no the DESIRE to be a better person, which is why the church and scripture is so (monumental??) influential and important to some people and how they live their everyday lives. I think that's a big key in misunderstanding on both sides.

[nevadamedic]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.

People go way overboard with this religious nonsense. They spend over an hour a week(sometimes multiple hours) that they will never get back at some church praying to something that they have no clue exists. Then they donate money to the church so the priests can take little boys on outings. Then they spend countless hours praying to someone they don't know exists based on one of the greatest fictional books ever read. Then it incourages wack jobs like this guy who killed and cooked his girlfriend to kill in "Gods" name.

Then people spend billions of dollars a year on so called religious items. God is big business.

If you are religious you shouldn't have to spend money, plaster Jesus stickers all over your car, wear Jesus clothes and jewlry or spend countless hours at a church worshipping a god just so you will goto "Heaven". Blah. People need to charish the limited time they have here not spend it praying 24/7. That shouldn't matter to God, unless he is egotistical which the bible makes him out to be.

Dont even get me started on the bible. Let's just say a lot of what is in there can be explained by science like the whole plagues of Egypt and Moses Parting the Red Sea.

People are suckers.

[darin]

Thanks for sharing - but you have your own thread saying the same thing :)

:D

[nevadamedic]

Thanks for sharing - but you have your own thread saying the same thing :)

:D

Yea but you closed it....................

[PostmodernProphet]

If you are religious you shouldn't have to spend money, plaster Jesus stickers all over your car, wear Jesus clothes and jewlry or spend countless hours at a church worshipping a god just so you will goto "Heaven".

/shrugs.....you are 100% right....thank goodness you don't......

[avatar4321]

i dont reject religion. faith in God is key to grow to our full potential.

[Abbey Marie]

Luckily for those who reject God, He does not reject you.

[theHawk]

except this one, this one is one of my favorites....

How many stalls for horses did Solomon have?
(a) Forty thousand (I Kings 4:26)
(b) Four thousand (2 chronicles 9:25)

1 Kings 4
26 Solomon had four thousand stalls for chariot horses, and twelve thousand horses.

1 Chronicles 9
25 Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horses

check it out if you don't believe me
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%209;&version=31;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=i%20kings%204;&version=31;

gotta love it.....


First of all, you didn't even quote your own sources correctly. Secondly, your source, biblegateway.com, is one of the worst English translations of the bible.

The ancient words in Hebrew for forty and four could had easily been miss-transcribed from the original source. And also, their are different meanings for the word used in Hebrew for stables. It could mean a whole stable, or the separate partitions within (i.e. stalls), either way it is a place to store animals. So they could of meant he had 4 thousand stables, and each stable having 10 stalls would make forty thousand stalls.

Seems a little strange to try to use such a case as an arguement for the bible 'contradicting' itself. Its not the only case were a number as been contested. We don't really know what the mark of the beast is either. It could be 666, or 616, or even 665.

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

Great question. Thanks for asking, it should open up some good conversations.

I personally grew up an Episcopalian....but now consider myself Agnostic.

I just don't find any value in what religion to me, personally.

I fully support other's right to chose a religion, and am happy we have the right to not believe, as well.


Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.

[PostmodernProphet]

First of all, you didn't even quote your own sources correctly. Secondly, your source, biblegateway.com, is one of the worst English translations of the bible.

The ancient words in Hebrew for forty and four could had easily been miss-transcribed from the original source. And also, their are different meanings for the word used in Hebrew for stables. It could mean a whole stable, or the separate partitions within (i.e. stalls), either way it is a place to store animals. So they could of meant he had 4 thousand stables, and each stable having 10 stalls would make forty thousand stalls.

Seems a little strange to try to use such a case as an arguement for the bible 'contradicting' itself. Its not the only case were a number as been contested. We don't really know what the mark of the beast is either. It could be 666, or 616, or even 665.


what on earth are you going on about????

1) biblegateway is not a "translation", it is a search engine that permits you to search fifty different translations.....I chose the NIV, which is widely accepted as accurate....

2) I quoted my source correctly....

3) of course four and forty were incorrectly translated, that is one of the most widely known errors of the original KJV......

4) I am not the one making the claim that the Bible contradicts itself....I was the one calling Obama an idiot for claiming the Bible contradicts itself, and for using a cut and paste from a fool with a bachelor's degree in engineering who likes to pretend he is a theologian and maintains a web site where he repeatedly proves his ignorance.....

[April15]

I would have to accept religion as a viable entity before I could reject it. But I don't consider a fictional writing as something to take stock in.

[Dilloduck]

I would have to accept religion as a viable entity before I could reject it. But I don't consider a fictional writing as something to take stock in.

So there's nothing worth taking note of in silly books like 1984 ?

[Yurt]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.

This thread came up again, so, at this time, I feel like answering.

"Religion"

This word is bothersome and ambiguous. The word is bothersome because many "beliefs" claim to be religious, but are in reality a "faith" that lets them push the envelope with "religious" freedom in the US. The word is ambiguous, because it allows other so called faiths to fall under the guise of "religious."

Without belaboring the faults of some of the early church members, they had a clear distinction of what is and what is not "religion." Religion as a term, is over used in the english lexicon, it can mean fervor over a soccer team. This was not always so, things spiritually discerned, were just that, spiritually discerned. Religion, while based predominantly on faith, is not just a 'roll of the dice' or a 'rubbing of the tummy.' It is more substantial. This is why; even the secular people of the world have come to recognize only "3" major world religions. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

[April15]

So there's nothing worth taking note of in silly books like 1984 ?The prophecy was wrong! It was a good read. Animal Farm had better prophecy for politics.
The best is The Virtues of Selfishness by Ayn Rand.
All books have something to offer the reader, even Catcher in the Rye.

[PostmodernProphet]

All books have something to offer the reader

???.....

[manu1959]

???.....

yes ....even the bible....

[Yurt]

The prophecy was wrong! It was a good read. Animal Farm had better prophecy for politics.
The best is The Virtues of Selfishness by Ayn Rand.
All books have something to offer the reader, even Catcher in the Rye.

have you actually read anything by her?

[bullypulpit]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.

My view of Jesus is rather like my view of Elvis. I love the guy, but his fan clubs creep me out.

[April15]

have you actually read anything by her?
As a student it was required. I thought We the Living had a good title but even that book was BS. The virtues of Selfishness is a recanting of her capitalist beliefs.

[bullypulpit]

The prophecy was wrong! It was a good read. Animal Farm had better prophecy for politics.
The best is The Virtues of Selfishness by Ayn Rand.
All books have something to offer the reader, even Catcher in the Rye.

Not entirely, since the Bush administration engage in levels of newspeak and doublethink that O'Brien of Big Brother's Inner Party would be envious of.

[Trinity]

I told my son when the subject of religion came up about the differing things people believe. That satisfied him for some time. Then when he was about 4 he asked for the first time "what do we believe"? I then told him what I believed and told him what he believed was up to him. He may be the only person I know who was allowed to deside what he believed without someone cramming it down his throat.

Wait hold on I have 2 more for you.......... both of my boy's. They are allowed to decide what they want to believe. I have explained to them the differences in religion and other people's beliefs along with my own it is now up to them to decide what they believe.


Here is an example not quite the same thing but you get the general idea...... my now 11 year old when he was around 8 and 9 would come home from school and say mom kid's at school are saying there is no Santa Claus, that it's your parent's that pretend to be Santa. I sat him down and said to him what do you believe? he said i believe there is a Santa Clause. I said then that's all that matters. It's about what you believe based on the information you have. Granted the kid's at school were correct, however he was not quite ready to know the truth yet. I think it would have upset him if I had told him at that age.

Now when Christmas rolled around again when he was 10 and a half he came to me one night with this smirk on his face and he says ok mom tell me the truth there really is no Santa is there? it really is my parent's isn't it? I just looked at him and didn't say a word he then starts laughing and goes I knew it he was pleased with him self that he had figured it out all on his own.

It was quite interesting to watch the look of I have figured it out all on my own come across his face, then he looks at me with this look of wait a minute it just clicked. He says ok what about the easter bunny? I didn't say a word he says your the easter bunny too huh? he says ok well what about the tooth fairy? I still said nothing he responds with oh man I can handle Santa and the Easter bunny but the tooth fairy isn't real either crap that stinks!:laugh2: I guess that means I don't get any more money for my teeth?:laugh2:

Now he helps me keep it a secret from his younger brother who is not ready to know just yet.

[Trinity]

My view of Jesus is rather like my view of Elvis. I love the guy, but his fan clubs creep me out.

:laugh2:

[truthmatters]

great post Trini. This is why every child needs at least one person (like a mom) to be there and to be paying attention to their individual personality and emotional needs. They need someone to guide them who knows at each momment what is going to help THIS PERSON understand. Its a real honor and was my favorite job in the world. Thanks for the stories loved them.

[Sitarro]

Wait hold on I have 2 more for you.......... both of my boy's. They are allowed to decide what they want to believe. I have explained to them the differences in religion and other people's beliefs along with my own it is now up to them to decide what they believe.


Here is an example not quite the same thing but you get the general idea...... my now 11 year old when he was around 8 and 9 would come home from school and say mom kid's at school are saying there is no Santa Claus, that it's your parent's that pretend to be Santa. I sat him down and said to him what do you believe? he said i believe there is a Santa Clause. I said then that's all that matters. It's about what you believe based on the information you have. Granted the kid's at school were correct, however he was not quite ready to know the truth yet. I think it would have upset him if I had told him at that age.

Now when Christmas rolled around again when he was 10 and a half he came to me one night with this smirk on his face and he says ok mom tell me the truth there really is no Santa is there? it really is my parent's isn't it? I just looked at him and didn't say a word he then starts laughing and goes I knew it he was pleased with him self that he had figured it out all on his own.

It was quite interesting to watch the look of I have figured it out all on my own come across his face, then he looks at me with this look of wait a minute it just clicked. He says ok what about the easter bunny? I didn't say a word he says your the easter bunny too huh? he says ok well what about the tooth fairy? I still said nothing he responds with oh man I can handle Santa and the Easter bunny but the tooth fairy isn't real either crap that stinks!:laugh2: I guess that means I don't get any more money for my teeth?:laugh2:

Now he helps me keep it a secret from his younger brother who is not ready to know just yet.

You sound like a wise Mom raising a bright young man, wish more were like you.

[KitchenKitten99]

I don't reject religion, so to speak. I accept others have their beliefs, and I don't feel threatened at all by any one of them, because I have my own thoughts and such on various things, and you gotta be good at persuasion and present a good argument to consider believing what you do. I guess I never was really pulled in by all of it. My grandma took us to church and I went to sunday school regularly, but even from day one, I just didn't feel like I fit in. I never really knew why.

I am VERY cynical. I tend to analyze and over-analyze things, especially when it defies logic & physics, but I think that is based on how I was raised and my experiences with other people as a whole. My whole life, my family and friends have lied to me about many things, some pretty extreme. Family & friends promised many things, and 90% of the time when I was younger, those promises were not kept. So I guess I was kind of conditioned (unintentionally) to only believe it, if I have seen it or there is physical proof that someone else has or has seen. Otherwise, I would be set up for a big disappointment. In other words, I started setting my expectations lower, for my own sanity and preservation of happiness. Sad, I know, but whadderyagonna do?

So I think when it came to believing in something that I could not see in the flesh or at least not see any shred of physical evidence, I had a hard time really believing in it. Maybe that is why I felt like an outcast at church. That I really didn't believe in my heart what I was being told I should believe.

Do I believe there is a power greater than ourselves? Yes. I just can't bring myself to do the singing, praying, praising, and such that comes along with practicing the Christian religion I was exposed to. When I did try it, I felt like an idiot because I felt that in my heart, I was being a hypocrite because I questioned (and still do) the validity of some of the things written in the Bible. Not that they don't make for a better directed life. Hell, most of our current laws are based on the Judeo-Christian beliefs and 10 Commandments. But if all that stuff happened back then, then why doesn't it happen now? Parting of the seas, getting pregnant without sex or artificial insemination, and the water-to-wine...That's the cynical, skeptical part of me that questions the validity of the stories. Not to say that something similar didn't happen, and that through the telling of stories, it evolved into what is written in the Bible.

Blind, unquestioning faith already has burned me too many times in life, so I guess I hesitate to believe in something just because someone says it happened.

[Yurt]

Fuzzy said some very good things and some were my thoughts so I won't belabor her great points.

These are my thoughts:

What "religion?"

For is it not true that you can be a thief on a cross and come to faith and be saved and with Him in heaven?

Why is it that christians have so many "churches?"

What is "church?"

To which commandments to we adhere? The OT commandments regarding the 7th day or the NT ......well, not exactly a commandment.....but.... the NT telling us to go to church on the 1st day?

What are "commandments?"

[avatar4321]

I still wouldn't go. If I want to learn about God I'll read a book about it. I have a busy life and I've never been one to subject myself to abject torture (sitting in a lecture listening to some putz) when there are fun and/or industrious things I could do instead. Hey, different strokes for different folks. That's one of my philosophies.

Religion isn't just about learning about God. It's about becoming like Him.

[avatar4321]

People go way overboard with this religious nonsense. They spend over an hour a week(sometimes multiple hours) that they will never get back at some church praying to something that they have no clue exists. Then they donate money to the church so the priests can take little boys on outings. Then they spend countless hours praying to someone they don't know exists based on one of the greatest fictional books ever read. Then it incourages wack jobs like this guy who killed and cooked his girlfriend to kill in "Gods" name.

Then people spend billions of dollars a year on so called religious items. God is big business.

If you are religious you shouldn't have to spend money, plaster Jesus stickers all over your car, wear Jesus clothes and jewlry or spend countless hours at a church worshipping a god just so you will goto "Heaven". Blah. People need to charish the limited time they have here not spend it praying 24/7. That shouldn't matter to God, unless he is egotistical which the bible makes him out to be.

Dont even get me started on the bible. Let's just say a lot of what is in there can be explained by science like the whole plagues of Egypt and Moses Parting the Red Sea.

People are suckers.

You are certainly within your right to believe what you want of others. But I think you do them a large injustice by brushing them all as suckers. Did you ever stop to consider that maybe some of them actually do know God exists? What about the religions where the ministers don't get any money for their preaching? What about religions who use their donations to bless and uplift the poor? Are they suckers for helping those in need?

[avatar4321]

I would have to accept religion as a viable entity before I could reject it. But I don't consider a fictional writing as something to take stock in.

How do you know something is fictional if you never even bother to learn or understand it?

[PostmodernProphet]

To which commandments to we adhere? The OT commandments regarding the 7th day or the NT ......well, not exactly a commandment.....but.... the NT telling us to go to church on the 1st day?

does it really matter?.....both are taking every seventh day off.....is the essence of the commandment that it must happen 'after' something or that we need to set aside regular times for worship........

[GW in Ohio]

Without trying to stump for my particular faith, I'm curious why those of you who don't have a particular belief tend to reject religion? I've heard it from friends a lot: "...because look at all those hypocrites!"

I try to explain the fact that somebody is a hypocrite does not mean what they are saying is wrong.

Look at me - Some of you would call me a fornicator, a liar, a thief, and more - yet I claim Christ and Christianity. Those things about me 'were' true of me. Indeed. Yet my past does not mean what I'm saying now is invalid, ya know?

I'm curious if we can see replies from people who state their reasons without simply insulting the faithful or the religious. I know there are VERY smart folk who'd be able to state their reasons without ad hominem, etc.

So - anybody care to discuss? I won't preach to you or try to get you to convert, and hope OTHERS do the same. I'm genuinely interested in your reasons, though.


I like the part where you go drink, and gamble, and mess around with wimmen, and then Jesus takes all your sins away.

And, since you're tainted with Adam's original sin, you'll prob'ly go and drink, and gamble, and mess around some more. But Jesus is always there to wash your sins away.

It's a good cycle......sin....forgiveness....sin....forgivenes s....sin....forgiveness....sin....

[Hagbard Celine]

I think most of the things we tout as "sins" are simply things that require a little bit of self-control to keep in check. I think it's radical to completely keep away from good, fun things like drinking, smoking, gambling, sexcapades, etc. in an attempt to keep yourself "clean." It's quite easy for me atleast to do all of these things in moderation. I don't go overboard because I value self-control and I have pride in myself, which means I have standards that help me keep myself in line. I guess all people don't have the inner need to continually better themselves, which is why they let vices rule them. But I still think that most of these things we call "sin" are simply things that should be done in moderation. I don't think doing them makes you a bad person. There are certainly evil acts which can't be percieved any other way such as child molestation, violent sadism and sociopathic murdering, but we all know what these things are. They're extremes. All the other things are in the gray area and require nothing more than self control to keep in check.


I like the part where you go drink, and gamble, and mess around with wimmen, and then Jesus takes all your sins away.

And, since you're tainted with Adam's original sin, you'll prob'ly go and drink, and gamble, and mess around some more. But Jesus is always there to wash your sins away.

It's a good cycle......sin....forgiveness....sin....forgivenes s....sin....forgiveness....sin....
You're a natural Catholic! :laugh:

[Missileman]

How do you know something is fictional if you never even bother to learn or understand it?

It's only common sense that the ancient Jews were as mistaken as the ancient Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.

[Yurt]

does it really matter?.....both are taking every seventh day off.....is the essence of the commandment that it must happen 'after' something or that we need to set aside regular times for worship........

you're right, what diff is your birthday, anniversy, pearl harbor rememberence, ah, its just a day.....

btw, if you read the commandment, it doesn't say "any" seventh day, it says "the" seventh day.

[Yurt]

It's only common sense that the ancient Jews were as mistaken as the ancient Romans, Greeks, Chinese, etc.

the:

because i said so

argument....

[April15]

How do you know something is fictional if you never even bother to learn or understand it?OK. here it is, I was exposed to religion by being born to Baptist parents. I checked out other religions by going to the services and listening to what was said.
Even as a child I knew seas do not part. Even as a child I knew bushes don't talk. Even as a child I knew most of what we had to read from a book called Bible was BS.
If you wish to go for religion so be it.

[Missileman]

the:

because i said so

argument....

It's actually the "Fool me twice, shame on me" argument. Shame on you! :poke:

[Black Lance]

OK. here it is, I was exposed to religion by being born to Baptist parents. I checked out other religions by going to the services and listening to what was said.
Even as a child I knew seas do not part. Even as a child I knew bushes don't talk. Even as a child I knew most of what we had to read from a book called Bible was BS.
If you wish to go for religion so be it.

Intuition is a poor substitute for knowledge.

[April15]

Intuition is a poor substitute for knowledge.Where are the physics that make a sea part? I call that knowledge.
Perhaps a man flying like a plane with 300 tons on his back is more factual for you? I trust boeing!

[PostmodernProphet]

you're right, what diff is your birthday, anniversy, pearl harbor rememberence, ah, its just a day.....

btw, if you read the commandment, it doesn't say "any" seventh day, it says "the" seventh day.

are you really going to pretend that either the day on the Georgian calendar called "Sunday" or the Hebrew Sabbath which begins on a day the Georgian calendar calls "Friday" are precisely a multiple of seven days following God's completion of creation?....both are days chosen to celebrate the Sabbath in an organized religion....

and, since we are apparently using scriptures as a proof text here, how about Christ's "mankind was not made for the Sabbath, Sabbath was made for mankind"......

[Black Lance]

Where are the physics that make a sea part? I call that knowledge.
Perhaps a man flying like a plane with 300 tons on his back is more factual for you? I trust boeing!

The obvious solution to your objections is that supernatural forces could be, and appear to sometimes be, capable of negating natural obstacles.

[BoogyMan]

Where are the physics that make a sea part? I call that knowledge.
Perhaps a man flying like a plane with 300 tons on his back is more factual for you? I trust boeing!

You trust a wisdom you don't have.

This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

[April15]

The obvious solution to your objections is that supernatural forces could be, and appear to sometimes be, capable of negating natural obstacles.It would be a solution but supernatural forces do not exist.

[April15]

You trust a wisdom you don't have.
My wisdom doesn't come from a fairy tale book.

[manu1959]

My wisdom doesn't come from a fairy tale book.

true .... you seem to just make shit up.....

[April15]

true .... you seem to just make shit up.....Very good insult!

[Black Lance]

It would be a solution but supernatural forces do not exist.

And you know that because.... ? So far you have listed nothing beyond a vague intuition, which is no substitute for reasoned thought.

[No1tovote4]

Where are the physics that make a sea part? I call that knowledge.
Perhaps a man flying like a plane with 300 tons on his back is more factual for you? I trust boeing!

I actually watched a show on the History Channel that suggested that it wasn't the "Red Sea" but the "Sea of Reeds" (they believed it to be a mistranslation) which is a shallow near the coast in Egypt. They showed that a volcanic eruption across the Mediterranean sea could cause what appeared to be a "parting" of the "Sea of Reeds".

They were even able to show how certain time periods the plagues could be caused by nature as well.

It was a fascinating show.

[Black Lance]

I actually watched a show on the History Channel that suggested that it wasn't the "Red Sea" but the "Sea of Reeds" (they believed it to be a mistranslation) which is a shallow near the coast in Egypt. They showed that a volcanic eruption across the Mediterranean sea could cause what appeared to be a "parting" of the "Sea of Reeds".

They were even able to show how certain time periods the plagues could be caused by nature as well.

It was a fascinating show.

The Angel of Death killing every first-born male doesn't sound like a natural occurrence to me.

[No1tovote4]

The Angel of Death killing every first-born male doesn't sound like a natural occurrence to me.

It could be a disease though. Described as such. There was some specific bug that came with the frogs or something. I'd have to watch the show again. It was a long time ago. It was extremely well done and they showed how a flood caused by rain in an exact area upriver could cause the water to be red like blood, that the drainage would cause... It was a chain reaction type of thing.

I'll see if I can find the link. It was a good show.

[Black Lance]

Regardless of how well-produced your documentary may be, my point still stands: I don't know of many diseases in nature that only kill first-born males.

[April15]

And you know that because.... ? So far you have listed nothing beyond a vague intuition, which is no substitute for reasoned thought.Reasoned thought does not include any room for supernatural anything! The most basic of physics understanding should allow you to comprehend gravity and molecular pull. If you need more than that to understand I can not help you.

[April15]

I actually watched a show on the History Channel that suggested that it wasn't the "Red Sea" but the "Sea of Reeds" (they believed it to be a mistranslation) which is a shallow near the coast in Egypt. They showed that a volcanic eruption across the Mediterranean sea could cause what appeared to be a "parting" of the "Sea of Reeds".

They were even able to show how certain time periods the plagues could be caused by nature as well.

It was a fascinating show.When it comes to a book called bible there are many errors in translation. What you describe is a plauseble truth to base an exaggeration on.

[PostmodernProphet]

When it comes to a book called bible there are many errors in translation.
very few, actually, and many were corrected following the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls.....

[PostmodernProphet]

Reasoned thought does not include any room for supernatural anything!

how silly.....any thought which precludes the possibility of a supernatural is hardly "reasoned"......

[PostmodernProphet]

It would be a solution but supernatural forces do not exist.

that's an interesting theory.....how do you propose to provide proof for it?.......

[BoogyMan]

My wisdom doesn't come from a fairy tale book.

Really? You couldn't tell it from the hostility you evidence towards the God of Heaven. Maybe it comes from delusion or some kind of substance addiction?

[April15]

that's an interesting theory.....how do you propose to provide proof for it?.......I would only need current proof of these forces existing to disprove them.

[Missileman]

I actually watched a show on the History Channel that suggested that it wasn't the "Red Sea" but the "Sea of Reeds" (they believed it to be a mistranslation) which is a shallow near the coast in Egypt. They showed that a volcanic eruption across the Mediterranean sea could cause what appeared to be a "parting" of the "Sea of Reeds".

They were even able to show how certain time periods the plagues could be caused by nature as well.

It was a fascinating show.

How would a "natural" explanation for a supposed "supernatural" event lend creedence to the validity of religion?

[Black Lance]

Reasoned thought does not include any room for supernatural anything!

Because...



The most basic of physics understanding should allow you to comprehend gravity and molecular pull. If you need more than that to understand I can not help you.

Which would be a great concern, if not for the fact alright pointed out: that supernatural forces can allegedly over-ride the natural forces you mention.

[April15]

Because...



Which would be a great concern, if not for the fact alright pointed out: that supernatural forces can allegedly over-ride the natural forces you mention.Reason precludes supernatural. If it is of this universe there are given parameters for forces. Nothing occurs outside of them.

[Black Lance]

Reason precludes supernatural.


Without assuming what you wish to prove, prove it.

[PostmodernProphet]

I would only need current proof of these forces existing to disprove them.

that wouldn't prove your claim.....you assert the supernatural does not exist, you would need to prove a negative, which is impossible......

[Yurt]

that wouldn't prove your claim.....you assert the supernatural does not exist, you would need to prove a negative, which is impossible......

no fart is purple

[PostmodernProphet]

please don't tell me you have witnessed every fart.....

[manu1959]

please don't tell me you have witnessed every fart.....

what color does methane burn.....

[Pale Rider]

what color does methane burn.....

Yellow.

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[manu1959]

Yellow.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-uGKI8hjUYU&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-uGKI8hjUYU&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

per mythbusters high speed camera it is a reddish color....saw them the other night.....either way it isn't purple....

[Yurt]

please don't tell me you have witnessed every fart.....

brain fart? :laugh2: you walked into that one

[Pale Rider]

per mythbusters high speed camera it is a reddish color....saw them the other night.....either way it isn't purple....

Regardless of what color a fart burns... have you heard a good reason why people reject religion yet?

[PostmodernProphet]

brain fart? :laugh2: you walked into that one

not at all....we're talking about the supernatural here.....I have no idea what an seraphim's fart would be like.....

[eighballsidepocket]

Just happen to be involved in a bible study that is covering the New Testament book of Matthew.

Within the book of Matthew, there are many direct quotes by Jesus concerning the "human condition" or the "condition of man" from His perspective. He extensively speaks about man's unbelief, and belief. "He who has ears, or eyes, let him hear or see." That about sums it up from Matthew.

Matthew was a former tax collector for the Romans, and was despised by the Jews as a "turn coat" as he and most tax collectors at that time didn't collect taxes in an ethical way, but gouged folks, over and above what was fair. The Romans looked the other way, as the bottom line was getting the wealth out of the subjugated people, and quibbling over their hired tax collector's methods was a non-issue.

Upon Matthew's being invited to follow Jesus, by Jesus Himself, he/Matthew literally walked away from his very lucrative job of wealth, and followed Christ. He also gave back to the many that he cheated. Ever wonder why he did?

Anyway, thought that little bit of background of this author from the N.T. of the bible would be helpful.

Matthew's book was basically written for Matthew's fellow Jews, rather than the Gentiles, but it indeed is a wealth of first hand, eye-witness information about Jesus, and does indeed have application for gentiles or non-Jews then and now. Thats the beauty and mystery of the bible.

I've copy-pasted a snippet from the 13 chapter of the book of Matthew, where Jesus is telling a parable to the people/crowds and His disciples as well. In my opinion, if this parable and Jesus's explanation isn't succinct enough, what is? I think that DMP's question is a fair one, and deserves a fair, respectful answer as well.

I'm not one that generally likes to drop numerous bible verses into these types of discussions, and if I do, I feel that it is my responsibility to connect them to the discussion concisely.

Just remember that a parable is not an allegory. It is fiction in most cases, but it has a central theme, or message. Jesus used parables for very specific reasons. Parables take some mind or conscience bending on the part of listeners. They are very effective when applied or heard by those that "honestly" are seeking answers or reasons for being, existence, life, ......or just plain old wonderings. Surprisingly, not all human beings ponder the very basics of life, but just chug along in life without, "pondering" or "wondering". Those that do, often fall into a couple categorys; those that wonder without preconceived ideas, pre-conditons, or agendas, and the opposites of the before mentioned. Where do you fall?

I'll let the verses below do the talking or explanation of "Why?", about man/woman's refusal of the biblical explanation of Christ and Christianity.


Matthew 13

Jesus Teaches in Parables

1That day Jesus went out of (A)the house and was sitting (B)by the sea.

2And large crowds gathered to Him, so (C)He got into a boat and sat down, and the whole crowd was standing on the beach.

3And He spoke many things to them in (D)parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;

4and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.

5"Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.

6"But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7"Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.

8"And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a (E)hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

9"(F)He who has ears, let him hear."

An Explanation

10And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"

11Jesus answered them, "(G)To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

12"(H)For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while (I)seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
'(J)YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
15(K)FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

16"(L)But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear.

17"For truly I say to you that (M)many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

The Sower Explained

18"(N)Hear then the parable of the sower.

19"When anyone hears (O)the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, (P)the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.

20"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

21yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he (Q)falls away.

22"And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of (R)the world and the (S)deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

23"And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some (T)a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

So was Jesus a lunatic, liar, con-man, or hitting the problem right on target?