Zelensky shows some openness to China’s cease-fire proposal

[Gunny]

Zelenskiy will of course have to politely listen. I doubt anything Pooh has come up with will be acceptable to Ukraine. Cavers will be all for it though.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/3873977-zelensky-shows-some-openness-to-chinas-cease-fire-proposal-the-question-is-what-follows-the-words/

[Black Diamond]

If Ukraine says no, I expect China to join team putin in a more extensive way.

[revelarts]

Zelensky has been bought and paid for billions of times now by the U.S. gov't.
He's not going to do anything his bosses don't want him to.
Not without paying a hefty price.
The only other people Zelensky seems afraid of are the Neo-Nazi faction of his gov't, military and citizenry.

The war won't stop until the western mob bosses say so.

[Gunny]

If Ukraine says no, I expect China to join team putin in a more extensive way.Openly. I would lay odds it's a Pooh move, not one in keeping with China's long-term goal. Been saying all along his ego is as big a problem for Chinese ambition as Western democracy.

The delusional ambitions of individual idiots and their egos, determining the fate of the World. Again.

[Gunny]

Zelensky has been bought and paid for billions of times now by the U.S. gov't.
He's not going to do anything his bosses don't want him to.
Not without paying a hefty price.
The only other people Zelensky seems afraid of are the Neo-Nazi faction of his gov't, military and citizenry.

The war won't stop until the western mob bosses say so.Ridiculous, baseless comment. It is not only that you don't know what you are talking about and regurgitating propaganda that suits your anti-American bent, but also that you refuse to educate yourself to the topic.

Government should be afraid of its own citizenry. Look how that doesn't work HERE.

[Black Diamond]

Openly. I would lay odds it's a Pooh move, not one in keeping with China's long-term goal. Been saying all along his ego is as big a problem for Chinese ambition as Western democracy.

The delusional ambitions of individual idiots and their egos, determining the fate of the World. Again.

Does that include Brandon?

[revelarts]

Ridiculous, baseless comment. It is not only that you don't know what you are talking about and regurgitating propaganda that suits your anti-American bent, but also that you refuse to educate yourself to the topic.

Government should be afraid of its own citizenry. Look how that doesn't work HERE.

I think you missed part of what i was saying
he's afraid of his
NEO-NAZI faction of his gov't,
NEO-NAZI faction of his military,
NEO-NAZI faction of his citizenry,

Not of the bulk of his citizenry.
I guess He's not afraid of the Russian speaking portion of his citizenry which he's been at war with since 2015.
Well... maybe he was afraid since he decided to attack them 7+ years.

[Gunny]

I think you missed part of what i was saying
he's afraid of his
NEO-NAZI faction of his gov't,
NEO-NAZI faction of his military,
NEO-NAZI faction of his citizenry,

Not of the bulk of his citizenry.
I guess He's not afraid of the Russian speaking portion of his citizenry which he's been at war with since 2015.
Well... maybe he was afraid since he decided to attack them 7+ years.

I didn't miss you repeating Putin's propaganda a bit. I ignored it, giving it the time of day it is worth. The entire West is "pro-NAZI" according to Putin; who, ironically enough is head of a regime closer to the Third Reich than any other.

[Black Diamond]

I didn't miss you repeating Putin's propaganda a bit. I ignored it, giving it the time of day it is worth. The entire West is "pro-NAZI" according to Putin; who, ironically enough is head of a regime closer to the Third Reich than any other.

I think the west underestimates or doesn't care about the radical right factions in Ukraine. They aren't just a group of people wearing Maga hats chanting "send her back"
And just because zelenksy is a jew doesn't mean there isn't a problem

[Gunny]

I think the west underestimates or doesn't care about the radical right factions in Ukraine. They aren't just a group of people wearing Maga hats chanting "send her back"
And just because zelenksy is a jew doesn't mean there isn't a problemSome in the West overrate Putin's mythology as it supports their political stance. "Because Zelenskiy is a Jew doesn't mean there isn't a problem" is straight out of Putin's mouth. Some personal and historical perspective:

Putin's red herring comes from the fear in the West of being labeled a Nazi post-WWII. Germany being the worst at knee-jerk reacting to it. The kernel of truth in the accusation is really stretching it. History itself belies Putin's accusations.

One, as a US citizen and retired US Marine, I can tell you for a fact that US military personnel, while required to carry out the orders of current Admin, are not card-carry Democrats, one and all. Rather than be as brainwashed as some believe, military personnel are more critical/skeptical of the policy they are required to carry out than Joe Bob Citizen sitting back in the World making blanket statements. Lived that life. Got some tee shirts and baubles for my uniform to prove it.

Thus, not all that fought in or with the Wermacht, or countries that supported Nazi Germany were Nazi's.

Not even 10 years prior to WWII, Stalin had collectivized Ukraine's land and starved a third of its people to death. Not just Ukrainians, but the countries closest to the soviet Union saw it as the bigger threat than Germany because they had already suffered at Stalin's hands and had yet to suffer at Germany's.

Not hard to connect the dots when Germany invaded Ukraine that it was chock full of people willing to fight against the Soviet Union after he enslaved whatever he didn't starve to death. Not to mention there wasn't a whole bunch of options going on. Fight for Germany, fight for Stalin, or get caught in the middle with both sides using your country as its battleground. Ukraine IS where the bulk of WWII was fought regarding Germany vs USSR.

There were Ukrainian units in the Wermacht. THAT is where Putin gets his "Nazi" bullshit from. The same place Biden gets his "MAGA Republicans are enemies of democracy" BS from. Out of their asses.

Is "democracy" in Eastern Europe what it is here? Heaven forbid. "Democracy" here isn't what democracy once was nor is supposed to be. We may not know exactly what the people of Ukraine's ideas are about democracy, but we damned-sure know what Putin's is.

[Black Diamond]

Some in the West overrate Putin's mythology as it supports their political stance. "Because Zelenskiy is a Jew doesn't mean there isn't a problem" is straight out of Putin's mouth. Some personal and historical perspective:

Putin's red herring comes from the fear in the West of being labeled a Nazi post-WWII. Germany being the worst at knee-jerk reacting to it. The kernel of truth in the accusation is really stretching it. History itself belies Putin's accusations.

One, as a US citizen and retired US Marine, I can tell you for a fact that US military personnel, while required to carry out the orders of current Admin, are not card-carry Democrats, one and all. Rather than be as brainwashed as some believe, military personnel are more critical/skeptical of the policy they are required to carry out than Joe Bob Citizen sitting back in the World making blanket statements. Lived that life. Got some tee shirts and baubles for my uniform to prove it.

Thus, not all that fought in or with the Wermacht, or countries that supported Nazi Germany were Nazi's.

Not even 10 years prior to WWII, Stalin had collectivized Ukraine's land and starved a third of its people to death. Not just Ukrainians, but the countries closest to the soviet Union saw it as the bigger threat than Germany because they had already suffered at Stalin's hands and had yet to suffer at Germany's.

Not hard to connect the dots when Germany invaded Ukraine that it was chock full of people willing to fight against the Soviet Union after he enslaved whatever he didn't starve to death. Not to mention there wasn't a whole bunch of options going on. Fight for Germany, fight for Stalin, or get caught in the middle with both sides using your country as its battleground. Ukraine IS where the bulk of WWII was fought regarding Germany vs USSR.

There were Ukrainian units in the Wermacht. THAT is where Putin gets his "Nazi" bullshit from. The same place Biden gets his "MAGA Republicans are enemies of democracy" BS from. Out of their asses.

Is "democracy" in Eastern Europe what it is here? Heaven forbid. "Democracy" here isn't what democracy once was nor is supposed to be. We may not know exactly what the people of Ukraine's ideas are about democracy, but we damned-sure know what Putin's is.

I've heard Americans ask the question "How can Ukraine have a nazi problem If zelensky is Jewish?"
And yes the Ukrainian units in the Wermacht killed jews by the bushel. Ukrainians did the killing in many cases. All the Germans had to do was supervise.
There is a faction of neo Nazis in Ukraine. They have their own flag and everything.
Also thanks to Stalin there are many Russians in Ukraine and the other former soviet republics.

[Gunny]

I've heard Americans ask the question "How can Ukraine have a nazi problem If zelensky is Jewish?"
And yes the Ukrainian units in the Wermacht killed jews by the bushel. Ukrainians did the killing in many cases. All the Germans had to do was supervise.
There is a faction of neo Nazis in Ukraine. They have their own flag and everything.
Also thanks to Stalin there are many Russians in Ukraine and the other former soviet republics.There is more than one faction of neo-Nazis in the US.

In our government:

Liars
thieves
Nazis
socialists
communists
fascists
cross-dressing trannies
faggots
US haters
radical Islamists
racists
stupid, woke radicals

Yet we call ourselves a democracy/representative Republic and hold everyone to our standard? Seems to me since the Ukrainians are doing their own fighting and asking for help we might ought to be looking at their example instead of just being full of hot air.

[Black Diamond]

There is more than one faction of neo-Nazis in the US.

In our government:

Liars
thieves
Nazis
socialists
communists
fascists
cross-dressing trannies
faggots
US haters
radical Islamists
racists
stupid, woke radicals

Yet we call ourselves a democracy/representative Republic and hold everyone to our standard? Seems to me since the Ukrainians are doing their own fighting and asking for help we might ought to be looking at their example instead of just being full of hot air.

Oh. Half our country woildnt have the stones. .

Ar least half.

[Black Diamond]

There is more than one faction of neo-Nazis in the US.

In our government:

Liars
thieves
Nazis
socialists
communists
fascists
cross-dressing trannies
faggots
US haters
radical Islamists
racists
stupid, woke radicals

Yet we call ourselves a democracy/representative Republic and hold everyone to our standard? Seems to me since the Ukrainians are doing their own fighting and asking for help we might ought to be looking at their example instead of just being full of hot air.

I agree (you've touched on this before) that Eastern Europeans don't fit the woke mold. But they will eventually if they become westernized, which will be the price for this aid.
The values you and I hold are no longer westen values.

[Gunny]

I agree (you've touched on this before) that Eastern Europeans don't fit the woke mold. But they will eventually if they become westernized, which will be the price for this aid.
The values you and I hold are no longer westen values.No one will ever know what they will become if Putin murders/enslaves them all and steals all their stuff. Just as we allegedly are, they deserve the opportunity to choose for themselves.

On the single issue of the decadence of the West, I agree with Putin. However academic it is, we have the power to change that. Russians don't. Chechnya doesn't. Part of Georgia doesn't. Anything crushed under the Russian boot doesn't.

Putin is the one using Nazi tactics to take what he can't force to bow to him. Contrary to current leftwing redefinition, the Nazi party was a socialist party and under Hitler, the party ran the state. Seems to me Putin has taken notes from the US democratic party, accusing the other side of doing what in fact he is.

Some Ukrainians were part of the Third Reich because they hated the Soviet Union more. Finland was initially allied with Germany because it feared Stalin more. Sweden claimed neutrality but had to turn a huge blind eye to German transgressions, as did the Swiss.

I'm not one that's big on "the sins of the father". What are you doing NOW?

Agree we are never going to be what we were. To think we were bitching then about how bad we had it. Little did we know:laugh:

[revelarts]

Just becasue Russia uses it doesn't mean they made it up.
U.S., U.K. and Israeli news outlets of all POVs all said the same thing about the neo-nazi in ukraine BEFORE the russian invasion.
(kind of like how everyone knew surgical mask didn't work against viruses but somehow that became "conspiracy" after covid19 showed up)

...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNDLVayUYAEZS0-?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FklmWl0aUAECZDs?format=jpg&name=900x900

[revelarts]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkWto94WAAAUvD-?format=png&name=900x900

[revelarts]

In 2007
"U.S. Actress Mila Kunis, Jewish w Ukrainian roots, voiced solidarity with Ukrainians But ..."A Member of the Ukrainian Parliament from the far-right Svoboda Party … sneeringly proclaimed that [Kunis] was not Ukrainian but a zhydovka. This deeply hurtful slur for a Jew was an alarming gutter effort to inject Jew-hatred into the acceptable bounds of mainstream Ukrainian discourse. But this story gets weirder. Because it turns out that the Ukrainian lawmaker who made these comments, Igor Miroshnichenko, did so not in Parliament but on his Facebook wall.
...The most disturbing aspect of the story was the reaction from the Ukrainian ministry, which claimed that there is nothing wrong with calling Kunis the female version of a “dirty Jew,” because the word is in their dictionary....."
https://observer.com/2013/02/ukrainian-anti-semitism-and-mila-kunis-complicated-by-facebook-dictionaries/

April 17, 2015 How Ukraine Commemorates the Holocaust
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/04/17/how-ukraine-commemorates-the-holocaust/
By Robert Parry
The U.S.-backed Ukrainian government came up with a curious way to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Holocaust being brought to an end. The parliament in Kiev voted to extend official recognition to Ukrainian fascists who collaborated with the Nazis in killing Jews....


more recently
Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't -- NBC
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ar-ncna1290946 (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946)


even CNN begrudgingly admits some of the problem
A far-right battalion has a key role in Ukraine’s resistance. Its neo-Nazi history has been exploited by Putin
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html


it's real, not proganda

[Black Diamond]

Just becasue Russia uses it doesn't mean they made it up.
U.S., U.K. and Israeli news outlets of all POVs all said the same thing about the neo-nazi in ukraine BEFORE the russian invasion.
(kind of like how everyone knew surgical mask didn't work against viruses but somehow that became "conspiracy" after covid19 showed up)

...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FNDLVayUYAEZS0-?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FklmWl0aUAECZDs?format=jpg&name=900x900

Well there ya have it. Just have to search media sources from the time before everyone painted Ukrainian colors on their faces.

[Black Diamond]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkWto94WAAAUvD-?format=png&name=900x900


I'd be interested to see the differences in media reports about saddam hussein from the 1980s vs say 2002.

Adendum or even 1990

[Black Diamond]

In 2007
"U.S. Actress Mila Kunis, Jewish w Ukrainian roots, voiced solidarity with Ukrainians But ..."A Member of the Ukrainian Parliament from the far-right Svoboda Party … sneeringly proclaimed that [Kunis] was not Ukrainian but a zhydovka. This deeply hurtful slur for a Jew was an alarming gutter effort to inject Jew-hatred into the acceptable bounds of mainstream Ukrainian discourse. But this story gets weirder. Because it turns out that the Ukrainian lawmaker who made these comments, Igor Miroshnichenko, did so not in Parliament but on his Facebook wall.
...The most disturbing aspect of the story was the reaction from the Ukrainian ministry, which claimed that there is nothing wrong with calling Kunis the female version of a “dirty Jew,” because the word is in their dictionary....."
https://observer.com/2013/02/ukrainian-anti-semitism-and-mila-kunis-complicated-by-facebook-dictionaries/

April 17, 2015 How Ukraine Commemorates the Holocaust
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/04/17/how-ukraine-commemorates-the-holocaust/
By Robert Parry
The U.S.-backed Ukrainian government came up with a curious way to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the Holocaust being brought to an end. The parliament in Kiev voted to extend official recognition to Ukrainian fascists who collaborated with the Nazis in killing Jews....


more recently
Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't -- NBC
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...ar-ncna1290946 (https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-nazi-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946)


even CNN begrudgingly admits some of the problem
A far-right battalion has a key role in Ukraine’s resistance. Its neo-Nazi history has been exploited by Putin
https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/29/europe/ukraine-azov-movement-far-right-intl-cmd/index.html


it's real, not proganda

I agree it's real and not propaganda. At the same time I wonder if putin mentioned it in part to sell the Russians on war. The nazis almost destroyed Russia.

[Gunny]

When one is determined to believe media-sensationalized bullshit:


After three largely undistinguished years in the Senate, McCarthy rose suddenly to national fame in February 1950, when he asserted in a speech that he had a list of "members of the Communist Party and members of a spy ring" who were employed in the State Department.https://www.google.com/search?q=joseph+mccarthy+gained+public+attention+b y&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS750US750&oq=joseph+mccarthy&aqs=chrome.2.0i271j46i433i512j0i512l8.10486j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Gunny]

Trying to blow smoke up the people's asses :)

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?77740-Russian-FM-s-false-claim-about-Ukraine-war-draws-laughter-from-crowd&p=1009403#post1009403