My thoughts about the Tyre Nichols tragedy

[Russ]

I assume everyone heard about the Tyre Nichols tragedy, where he was stopped by five police officers for 'reckless driving' and then essentially tasered and beaten to death. I don't want to look at the video, but the story is sickening. I keep wondering why.

Two things are really unusual about this incident. First, of course, is that all five of the police officers are black. To me, this eliminates racism as a factor. Some psychologists might make a case that one black officer might act like this on his own for some deeply hidden psychological reason, but with five guys acting together I cannot believe it. The second thing is that there was just so little reason to go after this guy at all. Reckless driving? This was the special "Scorpion" unit. I don't see why they would bother messing around with traffic tickets. Even if they did, Tyre Nichols did not give them a hard time. What set them off?

Another thing to consider is that all the officers knew they had cameras recording everything. Why would they do this when in the back of their minds that if they step over the line they can go to jail and end up on the national news?

The only thing I can think of is that some police officers can "see red" and lose control during arrests. Still doesn't explain why this non-threatening guy could set them off, but it's something to consider. The news media may assuming 'racism' too quickly, with the result that other things that might be considered never get thought about.

[Black Diamond]

Did group dynamics play a role?

[fj1200]

Still doesn't explain why this non-threatening guy could set them off, but it's something to consider.

Not sure I've got the whole timeline correct but it seems he struggled with an initial officer or two and got away. One of those radioed and mentioned "punishing" him and the second group tracked him down. Also in the mix being the lowering of standards for some of the officers, not being on the force very long, and having not enough supervisory training officers.

There's a lot of backstory to all this including experienced officers leaving the force leaving police forces having to lower standards.

[Black Diamond]

Not sure I've got the whole timeline correct but it seems he struggled with an initial officer or two and got away. One of those radioed and mentioned "punishing" him and the second group tracked him down. Also in the mix being the lowering of standards for some of the officers, not being on the force very long, and having not enough supervisory training officers.

There's a lot of backstory to all this including experienced officers leaving the force leaving police forces having to lower standards.

Does this mean that defunding the police isn't going to have the results people were looking for and expected?

[fj1200]

Does this mean that defunding the police isn't going to have the results people were looking for and expected?

Maybe not looking for but some folks kind of expected. It's unlikely that cities are going to learn the correct lesson from this.

[Russ]

Not sure I've got the whole timeline correct but it seems he struggled with an initial officer or two and got away. One of those radioed and mentioned "punishing" him and the second group tracked him down. Also in the mix being the lowering of standards for some of the officers, not being on the force very long, and having not enough supervisory training officers.

There's a lot of backstory to all this including experienced officers leaving the force leaving police forces having to lower standards.

That does explain make a little more sense. No news stories I ever saw or read ever stated that. Another example of the news media not being a very reliable source of news. Ironically, Debatepolicy.com is a more reliable source of news than most news media outlets.

It still needs some explaining, though. I would think that the beating and the tasering would had to have started before the guy ran away. Who would run away from 5 police just for a traffic stop, unless they started beating on you?

[Russ]

Does this mean that defunding the police isn't going to have the results people were looking for and expected?

Ironic how "Defund the Police" has made violent crime worse in minority neighborhoods, without ending these police beatings, and just resulting in fewer and less trained police.

[revelarts]

I've always said that the police violence problem is not primarily a race issue.
It's an issue of police culture, training or lack thereof.

It really seems that some areas have a police culture that thinks more like Andy Griffith's Sherif Taylor.
But too many have a police culture that think more like Barney Fife. And defend that POV as "real policing". Keeping the "civilians" in check & "coming home safe" which seems to translate into, shoot 1st ask questions later.

Some areas of course truly do just have "a few bad apples".

BTW most people, even on the left and in minority neighborhoods, are NOT in favor of "defunding the police".
Even with all my complaints about police I've never promoted that.
Maybe firing a whole police force and hiring all new. OK maybe that in some extreme cases. But not defunding.
Defunding the police is just as wrong as blindly Defending the police and pretending there's no problem just "a few bad apples".

[Gunny]

I've always said that the police violence problem is not primarily a race issue.
It's an issue of police culture, training or lack thereof.

It really seems that some areas have a police culture that thinks more like Andy Griffith's Sherif Taylor.
But too many have a police culture that think more like Barney Fife. And defend that POV as "real policing". Keeping the "civilians" in check & "coming home safe" which seems to translate into, shoot 1st ask questions later.

Some areas of course truly do just have "a few bad apples".

BTW most people, even on the left and in minority neighborhoods, are NOT in favor of "defunding the police".
Even with all my complaints about police I've never promoted that.
Maybe firing a whole police force and hiring all new. OK maybe that in some extreme cases. But not defunding.
Defunding the police is just as wrong as blindly Defending the police and pretending there's no problem just "a few bad apples".I think it is some of "all of the above".

The first that stands out is "group-think". An extreme example is My Lai-4 where one-arguably-two (Calley & Medina)out-of-control people in charge, who were inexperienced, 90-day wonders who shouldn't have been put in charge of anything more important than burning shitters allowed their personal stupidity to domino onto those who looked to them for leadership and led to the indiscriminate murder and destruction of an entire village. Add to that the frustrating, infuriating, relentless attacks from an enemy rarely seen to strike back at and you've got a perfect storm looking for someone/something to happen to.

From my observation, there is no connection with the above and who or what it gets taken out on. The next available target. VC sniper kills/hurts your bro's and while you can't get the sniper, the village is full of less than human Vietnamese who are "probably collaborators" anyway and somebody has to pay for this shit.

Another example: Abu Graib. Leadership was above the law. There was no direct leadership from the top, and left in the hands of a weekend warrior on a power trip and the group followed his lead. Not to get off on a side-rant about the CIA, but it was supposed to be in charge and was as usual too busy to do its own dirty work and left it in the hands of a guy that was a civilian a month before.

In both cases, the dumbing down of standards to provide bodies created the situations that occurred. Police force is short, lower the standards and give a dummy a gun and a badge and put him on the street. He learns more from his peers than alleged leadership that's too busy playing politics.

If whoever led the charge had the respect of the followers, and any or all of the conditions I described above exist, it's going to end badly.

[fj1200]

BTW most people, even on the left and in minority neighborhoods, are NOT in favor of "defunding the police".

I think that is evidenced in Atlanta with the new training facility that the city, black mayor and others, is trying to build and is being occupied largely by white people from other states.

[revelarts]

"According to documents released by the Memphis PD, one of the cops involved in the beating of #TyreNichols (https://twitter.com/hashtag/TyreNichols?src=hashtag_click) sent a photo of a bloodied Nichols to six people... And the media is still trying to tell us this wasn't personal. "

https://nypost.com/2023/02/07/memphis-cop-demetrius-haley-texted-photo-of-bloodied-tyre-nichols-after-beating/

[Gunny]

I think that is evidenced in Atlanta with the new training facility that the city, black mayor and others, is trying to build and is being occupied largely by white people from other states.An extremely annoying point, even if an aside.

All we hear is how "jobs are being created", blah, blah, blah. Not for Texans (example - choose your location). Snowbirds swoop right in a scoop them up. Yay! Our economy is roaring. Just nor for us.

These professional gold-strike followers will just as quickly dump said economy and people for the next greener pasture. As will the professional politicians looking only at ginning up business "now", with no thought nor care for the empty holes they leave behind.

[fj1200]

An extremely annoying point, even if an aside.

All we hear is how "jobs are being created", blah, blah, blah. Not for Texans (example - choose your location). Snowbirds swoop right in a scoop them up. Yay! Our economy is roaring. Just nor for us.

These professional gold-strike followers will just as quickly dump said economy and people for the next greener pasture. As will the professional politicians looking only at ginning up business "now", with no thought nor care for the empty holes they leave behind.

:confused: I was referring to a new police training facility.

[Gunny]

:confused: I was referring to a new police training facility.


and is being occupied largely by white people from other states


Shiny new facilities are wonderful. It won't replace good training, nor good people. Personal experience: I can train a good person to be a good Marine with crappy, leftover Vietnam War-era training aids and facilities. Given a brand new facility (borderline blasphemy :drillsarge:) and shiny, new toys, and the best knowledge available I still cannot train a person devoid of empathy to care.

[revelarts]

In related news, new horror
After release of video, lawsuit claims Alabama man froze to death in police custody, was ‘likely’ placed in jail freezer

https://www.cbs42.com/regional/after-release-of-video-lawsuit-claims-alabama-man-froze-to-death-in-police-custody-was-likely-placed-in-jail-freezer/

And the police, and dept seemed to have lied about... but hey video.

By the way,
white cops, white 'civilian'.





I still think attaching lawsuits to the cop's pension funds is one of the few tools that might blunt some of this insane crap.
From listening to several LEO's over the years, many seem very protective of "their retirement".
It may even get them over the some of the "fear for their lives" at the sight of bag of skittle in someone's hands.
And be a stronger motivator than the to often none existent MORAL COMPASS to "do the right thing" and stop a "brother in arms" from committing crimes.
or Snitch on a "fellow Officer" who's committed a crime/abuse/murder.

The threat that some "brother" is going to mess up 'my pension' so just to vent his frustrations or "have some fun" with some rando civilian?
I dont think so.
At least I'd like to think that more than few cops would suddenly find their sense of duty.

[fj1200]

I still think attaching lawsuits to the cop's pension funds is one of the few tools that might blunt some of this insane crap.

In re: Qualified Immunity, I would think prison vs pension is not really a contest in what would be more effective.

[Gunny]

In related news, new horror
After release of video, lawsuit claims Alabama man froze to death in police custody, was ‘likely’ placed in jail freezer

https://www.cbs42.com/regional/after-release-of-video-lawsuit-claims-alabama-man-froze-to-death-in-police-custody-was-likely-placed-in-jail-freezer/

And the police, and dept seemed to have lied about... but hey video.

By the way,
white cops, white 'civilian'.





I still think attaching lawsuits to the cop's pension funds is one of the few tools that might blunt some of this insane crap.
From listening to several LEO's over the years, many seem very protective of "their retirement".
It may even get them over the some of the "fear for their lives" at the sight of bag of skittle in someone's hands.
And be a stronger motivator than the to often none existent MORAL COMPASS to "do the right thing" and stop a "brother in arms" from committing crimes.
or Snitch on a "fellow Officer" who's committed a crime/abuse/murder.

The threat that some "brother" is going to mess up 'my pension' so just to vent his frustrations or "have some fun" with some rando civilian?
I dont think so.
At least I'd like to think that more than few cops would suddenly find their sense of duty.Threatening pensions would just leave a force made up of job-scared officers unwilling to act, whether or not they needed to.

Since the US takes heat from the left-brains for punishing "terrorists", and being racist against Arabs, instead of singling out and targeting individual scumbags, maybe they ought to apply the same rules to themselves they demand of the military/Fed government ?

There will ALWAYS be that 10% of scumbags screwing it up for the rest. Problem is, can only punish them after the fact. Or should we charge them based on what we think they're going to do?

There's not single, simple answer.