Why a True Christian cannot be a Modern Liberal

[-Cp]

Here are just a few important reasons why a True Christian cannot be a modern liberal:

The Bible talks about how there's a spiritual change within someone after they've accepted Christ's atonement on the cross and have turned their hearts to him:

Romans 12:1,2
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 John 3
5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God;

Christ is VERY clear that those who are redeemed will no longer have the desire to practice sin or support it.

This is strong evidence that modern Liberalism is indeed at odds with what it is to be a true Christian and here are a few reasons why:


1. Liberals support homo-sexual marriage - marriage is a holy institution between a man and a woman originally setup by God in the Garden.

"So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
—Genesis 1:27

"And the LORD God said, 'It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.' Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: 'This is now bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.' Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."
—Genesis 2:18-25 (NKJV)

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."
—Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)



2. Modern Liberals support pre-marital sex and any sort of "whatever feels good" montra to those unmarried. In fact, most of them support people "living together" before marriage. They also support a life of everything these scriptures warns against.

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
—1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)

"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"
—1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)



3. Liberals support the mudering of unborn children. Christ has a special place in his heart for Children as exemplified by a few scriptures:

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Matthew 18:6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

In addition, it's clear that God places serious value on babies and has gone to great lenghts in their creation:

Psalm 139
13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.

The Bible is also clear that life begins at conception:
Psalm 51:5
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

So here we have only 3 examples of why modern Liberalism is at odds with what it is to truly be a Christian. Unfortunately, all too many people these days have polluted what it means to be a Christian - they place the label on anyone who attends a "Christian" church and not whether or not someone has truly been born again.

The late Keith Green summarized this view very well when he said "Going to Church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger."

If you profess to be both a liberal and a Christian, I'd highly encourage you to pray and ask Christ to reveal to you his Word and how it shapes your world views, social and political views.

True Christians cannot sit and allow the above mentioned 2 points go without challenging them.

[GW in Ohio]

-CP: Thank you. I did not think it was possible to cram so much bullshit into one post.

[-Cp]

-CP: Thank you. I did not think it was possible to cram so much bullshit into one post.

Since you're at odds with the Bible - I can see why you'd write what you did....

[GW in Ohio]

Since you're at odds with the Bible - I can see why you'd write what you did....

I heard the devil can cite scripture for his own purposes......

[darin]

GW - that was random and purpose-less. ;)

[Hagbard Celine]

Go back to the monastery.

[-Cp]

GW - that was random and purpose-less. ;)

So was HG's - just like predictable libs, they offer nothing more than drive-by insults without any real thought involved.

[GW in Ohio]

So was HG's - just like predictable libs, they offer nothing more than drive-by insults without any real thought involved.

Whoa....hold on, bro.

You post a load of horseshit, with erzatz quotes from the Bible, to prove that liberals can't be true Christians, and you expect.......what? Dueling Bible quotes?

You are just the kind of Pharisee that Jesus teed off on.....fucking hypocrites who say, "Oh, Lord, why can't other men (i.e., liberals) be as virtuous and God-fearing as me?"

If you really think you are a Christian, you'd better watch that shit. Jesus never took kindly to hypocrites who went around judging their fellow men and declaring who was getting into heaven and who was not.

If you really believe in eternal hell fire, you'd better watch out you don't land your ass down there.

[darin]

Whoa....hold on, bro.

You post a load of horseshit, with erzatz quotes from the Bible, to prove that liberals can't be true Christians, and you expect.......what? Dueling Bible quotes?

You are just the kind of Pharisee that Jesus teed off on.....fucking hypocrites who say, "Oh, Lord, why can't other men (i.e., liberals) be as virtuous and God-fearing as me?"

If you really think you are a Christian, you'd better watch that shit. Jesus never took kindly to hypocrites who went around judging their fellow men and declaring who was getting into heaven and who was not.

If you really believe in eternal hell fire, you'd better watch out you don't land your ass down there.


But you aren't christian - what gives you cause to debate how he used scripture? That's odd.

Frankly, his post shows clearly why modern Liberalism is at odds with Christianity. The scriptures he posted show the kinds of thoughts Christians should have.

[Hagbard Celine]

So was HG's - just like predictable libs, they offer nothing more than drive-by insults without any real thought involved.

And what exactly do you call this thread? Insightful? Take the plank out of your eye.

[GW in Ohio]

But you aren't christian - what gives you cause to debate how he used scripture? That's odd.

Frankly, his post shows clearly why modern Liberalism is at odds with Christianity. The scriptures he posted show the kinds of thoughts Christians should have.

Oh, so now you guys are dictating not only what kind of politics a "true Christian" must have, but also what he should be thinking......

I'll repeat this.....you guys are exactly the kind of Pharisees and hypocrites that Jesus condemned.

Wasn't it also Jesus who said, Judge not, lest ye be judged"?

If I were you guys, I would put a lid on the judgment business. You just might find yourselves in the lake of eternal fire.

That doesn't sound like fun.....

[-Cp]

Oh, so now you guys are dictating not only what kind of politics a "true Christian" must have, but also what he should be thinking......

I'll repeat this.....you guys are exactly the kind of Pharisees and hypocrites that Jesus condemned.

Wasn't it also Jesus who said, Judge not, lest ye be judged"?

If I were you guys, I would put a lid on the judgment business. You just might find yourselves in the lake of eternal fire.

That doesn't sound like fun.....


You're right! Christ did tell the folks not to judge - but he also told them to discern - and in fact we're supposed to. That's why he carefully outlines the hallmarks of a true believer throughout scripture.

If I were you, I'd put a lid on the pretending you know scripture business.

[darin]

Oh, so now you guys are dictating not only what kind of politics a "true Christian" must have, but also what he should be thinking......

I'll repeat this.....you guys are exactly the kind of Pharisees and hypocrites that Jesus condemned.

Wasn't it also Jesus who said, Judge not, lest ye be judged"?

If I were you guys, I would put a lid on the judgment business. You just might find yourselves in the lake of eternal fire.

That doesn't sound like fun.....

dude - the BIBLE dictates how Christians act and think - not us. Jesus didn't say that - not how you are using it. Christians are TASKED to call-out those not acting in accordance with scripture. Calling somebody on their opinions or actions is an act of LOVE. I believe the bible is VERY clear - if one supports the kinds of things Modern Liberals support, it's impossible they have even a modicum of understanding of, and love for Christ.

[PostmodernProphet]

when one sits down and works to apply the teachings of scripture to modern life there are two challenges.....correctly understanding the scripture and correctly understanding the fact situation to which it is applied.....

now, if we assume for the sake of argument that the modern liberal is in favor of legal abortion and an amendment extending the understanding of marriage to a gay relationship, then the question is, can a Christian be in favor of legal abortion and a gay marriage amendment....

now, in the first situation, I doubt there is much disagreement among Christians regarding the teachings of Scripture on the sanctity of life.....however, there may be differences in belief with respect to whether those teachings apply to a fetus.....a disagreement on whether a fetus is a human being or not....I would say that it would be almost impossible for a Christian to be in favor of legalized abortion unless they honestly believed a fetus was not a human being.....(personally I think such a belief to be unscientific, but that isn't the issue of the moment).....

in the second situation, I doubt there could be much disagreement as to what a gay relationship is, or what marriage is.....the facts are not in dispute......however, there can be disagreement between Christians on what the understanding of scripture is with respect to gays......(again, personally I believe that the scriptures present a negative view on gay relationships, but again, that isn't the issue)....

in summary then, it is logical that a Christian could hold a modern liberal view of abortion and gay marriage if 1) they believed that a fetus is not a human being and 2) they interpreted scripture in a way that was not negative on the issue of gay relationships.......

[darin]

in summary then, it is logical that a Christian could hold a modern liberal view of abortion and gay marriage if 1) they believed that a fetus is not a human being and 2) they interpreted scripture in a way that was not negative on the issue of gay relationships.......



To me, holding those views would preclude somebody from holding a favorable view of Christ. In the end, it's not up to the person to declare himself or herself a "Christian" - it's up to Christ. :)

[JohnDoe]

But you aren't christian - what gives you cause to debate how he used scripture? That's odd.

Frankly, his post shows clearly why modern Liberalism is at odds with Christianity. The scriptures he posted show the kinds of thoughts Christians should have.

please think about what you are doing!

have you NEVER had lustful thoughts?

have you never covetted what your neighbor had... like a sports car and had to go get one for yourself?

have you never put down the poor which Scripture WARNS YOU not to or shown favoritism to those with more?

have you given up all of your possesions and given them to the poor, the needy, and only follow the teachings of Christ?

have you visited those in prison?

have you helped the stranger?

have you always held your temper in check?

have you turned your cheek to your adversary? and have you walked an aditional mile with this adversary by your own free will?

Have you honestly taken the PLANK out of your own eye before trying to remove the spec of sawdust in your neighbors...

or have you cast that first stone without examining your own sinfulness?

like was said, be careful in what you do...the way you judge others and the severity of such, YOU WILL BE JUDGED.

jd

[-Cp]

in summary then, it is logical that a Christian could hold a modern liberal view of abortion and gay marriage if 1) they believed that a fetus is not a human being and 2) they interpreted scripture in a way that was not negative on the issue of gay relationships.......

Well thought-out post there... but the closing should've said "in summary it is logical that a Christian could hold a modern liberal view of abortion and gay marriage if they reject God's word"...

[PostmodernProphet]

Well thought-out post there... but the closing should've said "in summary it is logical that a Christian could hold a modern liberal view of abortion and gay marriage if they reject God's word"...
but I have never found a passage in God's word that directly states that a fetus is a human being.....I believe that science is teaching us that.....perhaps I should say they reject science instead.......

[-Cp]

but I have never found a passage in God's word that directly states that a fetus is a human being.....I believe that science is teaching us that.....perhaps I should say they reject science instead.......

Psalm 51:5
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

not sure how someone could be a sinner from the time of conception if they weren't a human life in God's eyes....

[Abbey Marie]

Psalm 51:5
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

not sure how someone could be a sinner from the time of conception if they weren't a human life in God's eyes....

Nicely done.

[darin]

please think about what you are doing!

have you NEVER had lustful thoughts?

Sure I have. I've repented and they are gone. :)


have you never covetted what your neighbor had... like a sports car and had to go get one for yourself?


None of my neighbors had a sports car. And your illustration is poor because even if they DID, it'd only be coveting to take THEIRS...not buy one of my own. ;) I bought my car because we needed a new Family Car. It's a four-door; seats our entire family and our crap. Just so happens I don't buy into the whole concept of "If it's family car, you cannot enjoy it" :)


gave you never put down the poor which Scripture WARNS YOU not to or shown favoritism to those with more?


Nope. Never. Ever.


have you given up all of your possesions and given them to the poor, the needy, and only follow the teachings of Christ?


When Christ asks me to, I will Gladly. Thing is - MY possessions were GIVEN to me in my poverty. ;) The 'things' in my life are here as a blessing from God.


have you visited those in prison?

Nobody I know is in prison.


have you helped the stranger?


Often. I'm TRYING to help YOU right now...but you're hard headed/hearted. ;)


have you always held your temper in check?


Did Christ?


have you turned your cheek to your adversary?

You're still here. Physchoblues is still here. MFM is still here.


and have you walked an additional mile with this adversary by your own free will?

Hrm...What's an example of that? Following through? I'm not going to give you specifics of where I've been put in a position to bless somebody because it's between ME and them and God.



Have you honestly taken the PLANK out of your own eye before trying to remove the spec of sawdust in your neighbors...


I have no planks in my eyes. God's gifted me with 20/19 vision...so far :)


or have you cast that first stone without examining your own sinfulness?

Never. I am not sinful. My sins have been forgiven and are no more. I do not have a sinful nature, by the Grace of God. I fail. I admit it. God Restores me. That's the wonder of His Grace.


like was said, be careful in what you do...the way you judge others and the severity of such, YOU WILL BE JUDGED.

jd

Okayhowniceforyouomgwtf!!!111ONE!!!!11JUAN!!111UNO !!!

[JohnDoe]

but I have never found a passage in God's word that directly states that a fetus is a human being.....I believe that science is teaching us that.....perhaps I should say they reject science instead.......
there are passages in the old testament that give value to the unborn child that i have found, but none that give the unborn child the same personhood as a born child, or in other words in the old testament, the unborn child is never given the same value or worth, as a child that has taken its first breath.

and even the modern day christian acts in this manner!

for example:

if there were a fertility clinic on fire and a 5 year old child stuck in it, the firemen, if limited on time, would save the 5 year old before saving the frozen embryos.

when a pregnant mother has difficulty and her life is in danger, the mother's life is chosen to be saved over the child to be's life....

but then on the other hand if it were a choice between saving only one in a circumstance where there was a pregnant woman or a 50 year old woman, the pregnant woman would probably be saved first....because she is carrying two...

so the unborn child has great worth because it is a future person and human already, but it is not as great a worth as the child that has taken his first breath, after birth.... is what I have found in Scripture....

But I am open for discussion on this too! ;)

jd

[April15]

Modern liberals don't believe in Exodus 21:7. That allows you to sell your daughter into slavery.
Also don't violate Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field. and we don't stone people for tending to curse and blaspheme a lot. Lev. 24: 10-16.
So where do you stand on these current pressing issues?

[-Cp]

But I am open for discussion on this too! ;)

jd

Great, then start another thread about this topic as not to derail this thread.. .:)

[gabosaurus]

As usual, cp is full of shit.
It's always good to talk the Biblical talk. But unless you can back up your words with deeds, you are no more a Christian than those you rail against.
This goes for those who espouse equally ignorant viewpoints.

[JohnDoe]

Sure I have. I've repented and they are gone. :)



None of my neighbors had a sports car. And your illustration is poor because even if they DID, it'd only be coveting to take THEIRS...not buy one of my own. ;) I bought my car because we needed a new Family Car. It's a four-door; seats our entire family and our crap. Just so happens I don't buy into the whole concept of "If it's family car, you cannot enjoy it" :)



Nope. Never. Ever.



When Christ asks me to, I will Gladly. Thing is - MY possessions were GIVEN to me in my poverty. ;) The 'things' in my life are here as a blessing from God.



Nobody I know is in prison.



Often. I'm TRYING to help YOU right now...but you're hard headed/hearted. ;)



Did Christ?



You're still here. Physchoblues is still here. MFM is still here.



Hrm...What's an example of that? Following through? I'm not going to give you specifics of where I've been put in a position to bless somebody because it's between ME and them and God.



I have no planks in my eyes. God's gifted me with 20/19 vision...so far :)



Never. I am not sinful. My sins have been forgiven and are no more. I do not have a sinful nature, by the Grace of God. I fail. I admit it. God Restores me. That's the wonder of His Grace.



Okayhowniceforyouomgwtf!!!111ONE!!!!11JUAN!!111UNO !!!

Well PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY!
The Sin free Jesus Christ is walking earth again, only his name is Darin now!!!!

:bow3::bow3::bow3:
Seriously though, if you are so perfect, why did Christ have to die?

I think you missed the whole point, I wan't expecting a disortation on each of those things I listed....I was just guessing and throwing out things to see if any stuck! ;)

and on the covetting...you do not have to steal it from your neighbor...covetting is just "wanting " it...

jd

[-Cp]

Modern liberals don't believe in Exodus 21:7. That allows you to sell your daughter into slavery.
Also don't violate Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field. and we don't stone people for tending to curse and blaspheme a lot. Lev. 24: 10-16.
So where do you stand on these current pressing issues?

we aren't under the OT law:

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 6:14
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 7:4, 6
Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross.

[-Cp]

Well PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY!
The Sin free Jesus Christ is walking earth again, only his name is Darin now!!!!

:bow3::bow3::bow3:
Seriously though, if you are so perfect, why did Christ have to die?

I think you missed the whole point, I wan't expecting a disortation on each of those things I listed....I was just guessing and throwing out things to see if any stuck! ;)

and on the covetting...you do not have to steal it from your neighbor...covetting is just "wanting " it...

jd

Christ died because darin WASN'T perfect - his attonement means that we're no longer slaves to sin and yes that means we can live a sin-free life now, however, we still fail from time to time in light of that...

I'd encourage you to read the OP - the verses from 1 John 3 deal with this issue..

[darin]

Modern liberals don't believe in Exodus 21:7. That allows you to sell your daughter into slavery.

Good - actually, that passage was Given to PROTECT folk from society-rules which allowed for slavery.



"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.





Also don't violate Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field.

Know anything about Crop rotation? Was God telling folk things to PROVIDE For them? Do you know ANYTHING about the law of Moses?


and we don't stone people for tending to curse and blaspheme a lot. Lev. 24: 10-16.
So where do you stand on these current pressing issues?

Again - your ignorance of the Law is appalling. Try www.goreadabook.com - learn about context. Learn about History before you cherry-pick out-of-context scriptures in an attempt to bash Christianity.

[April15]

The stuff is what Christians believe. I sure as shit don't!

[-Cp]

As usual, cp is full of shit.
It's always good to talk the Biblical talk. But unless you can back up your words with deeds, you are no more a Christian than those you rail against.
This goes for those who espouse equally ignorant viewpoints.

As usual, gab does a drive-by post that lowers the IQ of everyone by 10 points, offers no value to the conversation and only slings insults.

[darin]

Well PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY!
The Sin free Jesus Christ is walking earth again, only his name is Darin now!!!!

:bow3::bow3::bow3:
Seriously though, if you are so perfect, why did Christ have to die?

I think you missed the whole point, I wan't expecting a disortation on each of those things I listed....I was just guessing and throwing out things to see if any stuck! ;)


...and nothing stuck. So...what's your point?



and on the covetting...you do not have to steal it from your neighbor...covetting is just "wanting " it...

jd


No - coveting is NOT merely 'wanting' something. www.hop.com if you need help, toots.

[JohnDoe]

Christ died because darin WASN'T perfect - his attonement means that we're no longer slaves to sin and yes that means we can live a sin-free life now, however, we still fail from time to time in light of that...

I'd encourage you to read the OP - the verses from 1 John 3 deal with this issue..that is my point Cp....no one is perfect and Christ died for EVERYONE'S SIN....

and the allowances you and dmp give yourselves for your own faultiness is something that is NOT THERE JUST for the two of you.... and THIS is how i see you come off....and you're simply not the only ones to receive God's grace and mercy....

we ALL FALL SHORT of the glory of God...in our own way, with our own sins that still continue, even after being born again....though they may be fewer and should be fewer, or they can be hidden in the closet like Ted Haggart or Larry Craig or Jim Baker or the Catholic priests or whoever!

jd

[darin]

that is my point Cp....no one is perfect and Christ died for EVERYONE'S SIN....

and the allowances you and dmp give yourselves for your own faultiness is something that is NOT THERE JUST for the two of you.... and THIS is how i see you come off....and you're simply not the only ones to receive God's grace and mercy....



I don't get your point. Where has either -Cp or I claimed exclusive rights to God's grace? You're either silly, or VERY confused.


we ALL FALL SHORT of the glory of God...in our own way, with our own sins that still continue, even after being born again....though they may be fewer and should be fewer, or they can be hidden in the closet like Ted Haggart or Larry Craig or Jim Baker or the Catholic priests or whoever!

jd


Okay - that's true - but nothing to do with the topic at hand. Nobody is claiming Christians live a sin-free life. However, I live a life removed from my sinful NATURE, as it's been replaced by a nature which seeks Christ. Every Christian is that way. If it's not in one's Nature to seek christ, they are NOT christians.

[Dilloduck]

Here are just a few important reasons why a True Christian cannot be a modern liberal:

<<snip>>

We've sunk to sorting out "true" Christians from "fake" ones by how they vote? Yikes.

[Hagbard Celine]

We've sunk to sorting out "true" Christians from "fake" ones by how they vote? Yikes.

Welcome to Debate Policy.

[Dilloduck]

Welcome to Debate Policy.

oh I wouldn't hang the entire site out to dry like that.

[-Cp]

We've sunk to sorting out "true" Christians from "fake" ones by how they vote? Yikes.

Has anyone in this thread brought up voting?

[JohnDoe]

I don't get your point. Where has either -Cp or I claimed exclusive rights to God's grace? You're either silly, or VERY confused.




Okay - that's true - but nothing to do with the topic at hand. Nobody is claiming Christians live a sin-free life. However, I live a life removed from my sinful NATURE, as it's been replaced by a nature which seeks Christ. Every Christian is that way. If it's not in one's Nature to seek christ, they are NOT christians.

That's how it appears darin, when you post threads that say Why a TRUE CHRISTIAN can not support modern Liberalism or (Democrats)...

THAT, in and of itself was a sin. And maybe even the unforgivable sin- a sin that blasphemed the Holy Spirit who is within me and my family....your brother and you DENIED the holy Spirit's pressense, as the pharisees did with Christ.

and you also call us in so many words "fools", even though we are believers in Jesus Christ as our Savior....and I won't say it any further than this, you know you have a temper because you just used it to lash out...

And Please stop with the idea that I think I am better than you, because I am NOT in any way less of a sinner than you or anyone.... I do not see myself as holier than thou, I see myself as a sinner and believe me I know my own struggles with sin quite well and as a sinner, in need of Christ's mercy and in need of the Salvation he brought to us.

I just see you two coming off a little holier than thou, not me....and maybe I have taken the both of you wrongly and misunderstand what it is that you are trying to do in the name of Jesus Christ? Christ did not come to condemn the world, but to SAVE the world....and he did not come to completely remove the Law, he came to fullfill the Law is what He said himself...the Jews took the Law out of context and abused it.

And yes, we have a New Covenent in Christ Jesus, he removed the burden of the Law from us, but he did NOT remove the Law!!! Those under the burden of the Law will be judged by the Law, those under the new covenent have Jesus Christ as the substitute for the Sacrificial Lamb under the Law is my understanding of it....but it does not mean that we throw the old testament away.... at least this is how I was taught?

I know I will fall short, no matter how hard I try...there is no one harder on me than myself, when it comes to critiquing how I have lived and do live my own life....and when I question you like I have, it is to make you think a little more about what you are doing in circumstances like this and that is telling someone who is truely Born Again of the Spirit and of Water, a Christian head to toe, with the Holy Ghost inside of her, that she can not have recived God's calling and Grace...

You Blaspheme God-the Holy Spirit when you and cp do the kind of garbage you have done with a thread like this or the thread about paradise where cp says liberals need not reply....

it is just simply WRONG and not of a Christian NATURE in the least imho.

jd

[Dilloduck]

Has anyone in this thread brought up voting?

my bad---I assumed a liberal would vote liberal too.

[darin]

That's how it appears darin, when you post threads that say Why a TRUE CHRISTIAN can not support modern Liberalism or (Democrats)...


You said "Democrat". I said it's clear, based on the bible, nobody can support what modern liberals support AND have a heart for Christ. The two are incompatible.


THAT, in and of itself was a sin. And maybe even the unforgivable sin- a sin that blasphemed the Holy Spirit who is within me and my family....your brother and you DENIED the holy Spirit's pressense, as the pharisees did with Christ.

Is that what you think? Really? I suppose I'd be FURTHER damning myself if I wrote "Satan worshipers CAN NOT be Christians. One cannot be a satan-worshiper AND follower of christ!"

When people's mindsets are such as they support policies and ideals which are CONTRARY to Christianity, it's quite appropriate to say they cannot BE Christians. No man can serve both Man (modern Liberalism) and Christ.

Search google though, for a bit - may help you understand what blasphemy is.


and you also call us in so many words "fools", even though we are believers in Jesus Christ as our Savior....and I won't say it any further than this, you know you have a temper because you just used it to lash out...

Fools? No. I PITY you. I'm concerned about you. You claim one thing (to be a christian) then proclaim your support and acceptance of lies, and sin, and things CONTRARY to Christianity. Where did I lash out? Care to explain That one? I haven't lost my temper once in this thread.


And Please stop with the idea that I think I am better than you, because I am NOT in any way less of a sinner than you or anyone.... I do not see myself as holier than thou, I see myself as a sinner and believe me I know my own struggles with sin quite well and as a sinner, in need of Christ's mercy and in need of the Salvation he brought to us.

That's rich.



I just see you two coming off a little holier than thou, not me....and maybe I have taken the both of you wrongly and misunderstand what it is that you are trying to do in the name of Jesus Christ? Christ did not come to condemn the world, but to SAVE the world....and he did not come to completely remove the Law, he came to fullfill the Law is what He said himself...the Jews took the Law out of context and abused it.


You are CLEARLY taking this wrongly. You don't know the meaning of 'calling somebody to task' or 'fulfill the law'. The jews - such as Moses, etc, didn't all abuse the law. In fact, prior to Christ, the Jewish Law was the only way to God.

What you call 'holier than thou' I'm telling you right now is "calling a spade, a spade'. I get the feeling you wouldn't be happy unless -Cp and I called for ALL people to remain in their sin, and be happy...because the TRUTH may hurt their feelings.


And yes, we have a New Covenent in Christ Jesus, he removed the burden of the Law from us, but he did NOT remove the Law!!! ....but it does not mean that we throw the old testament away.... at least this is how I was taught?


That's generally correct - however, the OT is mostly to set-the-stage for Christ. Upon Christ's fulfillment of the Law, our covenant with Him is no longer tied to ritual or act. It's tied to Grace and Faith.


I know I will fall short, no matter how hard I try...there is no one harder on me than myself, when it comes to critiquing how I have lived and do live my own life....and when I question you like I have, it is to make you think a little more about what you are doing in circumstances like this and that is telling someone who is truely Born Again of the Spirit and of Water, a Christian head to toe, with the Holy Ghost inside of her, that she can not have recived God's calling and Grace...

See? I think that's a bunch of crap. You don't 'question me' because you are concerned about me, you question me to ridicule. You question me to try and find a 'gotcha'. Everyone already has God's calling and God's Grace. Not everyone, however, seems to care. :)


You Blaspheme God-the Holy Spirit when you and cp do the kind of garbage you have done with a thread like this or the thread about paradise where cp says liberals need not reply....

it is just simply WRONG and not of a Christian NATURE in the least imho.

jd

Again, you don't understand the word Blaspheme. Here's the deal - if I am posting a thread about Rotary Engines, it makes since I'd ask for non-car-people to keep their opinions to themselves. If I were posting about basket-weaving, it'd make SENSE to only want the input of folk who have woven baskets. -Cp's asking Liberals to hold their fingers (or tongue) makes sense because he (rightly) believes nothing they can say on things of the Bible MATTER, because by their political persuasions it's clear they are not spiritually minded, or christ-like.

Get it?

[-Cp]

my bad---I assumed a liberal would vote liberal too.

That's cause you're confusing liberalism with a certain political party...

There are libs on both sides of the ticket right now...

[-Cp]

And yes, we have a New Covenent in Christ Jesus, he removed the burden of the Law from us, but he did NOT remove the Law!!! Those under the burden of the Law will be judged by the Law, those under the new covenent have Jesus Christ as the substitute for the Sacrificial Lamb under the Law is my understanding of it....but it does not mean that we throw the old testament away.... at least this is how I was taught?

jd


He DID remove the law.. the law was Fullfilled thru him;

Christ DID Fulfill the law - what does that word mean?

- to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):
- to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time.

We aren't under the OT law:

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 6:14
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 7:4, 6
Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross.

[Dilloduck]

That's cause you're confusing liberalism with a certain political party...

There are libs on both sides of the ticket right now...

Gotcha---you must be a conservative to even have a chance at being labeled as a "True Christian"

[darin]

Gotcha---you must be a conservative to even have a chance at being labeled as a "True Christian"

It's not about labels as much as it's about ideals. Modern Liberals hold contempt for things of Christ. That's just the nature of things. People who hold closely to the teachings of Christ tend to be more-aligned with Conservatives.

[PostmodernProphet]

Psalm 51:5
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

not sure how someone could be a sinner from the time of conception if they weren't a human life in God's eyes....

but again, it requires your second sentence.....if the scripture were clear it wouldn't be necessary for you to argue it.....

[PostmodernProphet]

there are passages in the old testament that give value to the unborn child that i have found, but none that give the unborn child the same personhood as a born child, or in other words in the old testament, the unborn child is never given the same value or worth, as a child that has taken its first breath.

and even the modern day christian acts in this manner!

for example:

if there were a fertility clinic on fire and a 5 year old child stuck in it, the firemen, if limited on time, would save the 5 year old before saving the frozen embryos.

when a pregnant mother has difficulty and her life is in danger, the mother's life is chosen to be saved over the child to be's life....

but then on the other hand if it were a choice between saving only one in a circumstance where there was a pregnant woman or a 50 year old woman, the pregnant woman would probably be saved first....because she is carrying two...

so the unborn child has great worth because it is a future person and human already, but it is not as great a worth as the child that has taken his first breath, after birth.... is what I have found in Scripture....

But I am open for discussion on this too! ;)

jd

Personally, I rely on Psalm 139 to convince me that a fetus is a completed creation, fully human....but I acknowledge it is my interpretation....I would say, however, that any secular humanist that denies that science clearly reveals a fetus is a living human being is being hypocritical......

[Dilloduck]

It's not about labels as much as it's about ideals. Modern Liberals hold contempt for things of Christ. That's just the nature of things. People who hold closely to the teachings of Christ tend to be more-aligned with Conservatives.

A Christian who commits "Modern liberalism" still remains as much of a Christian just as a conservative who commits idolatry.

[-Cp]

A Christian who commits "Modern liberalism" still remains as much of a Christian just as a conservative who commits idolatry.

You're missing the point of the OP here Dillo...

If you read the opening post - it's clear thru scripture that there are signs of someone being a true believer in Christ - they take on the Spirit of God and have a distain for sin.

Commiting any ongoing act that's contrary to God would provide clear evidence that the spirit of God does not reside in the offender.

Again, read the scriptures from 1 John chapter 3 in the OP...

[PostmodernProphet]

The stuff is what Christians believe. I sure as shit don't!

April, you would do well to educate yourself about what Christianity teaches, if you want to look credible criticizing it.....as it is, you simply look foolish.....

[darin]

A Christian who commits "Modern liberalism" still remains as much of a Christian just as a conservative who commits idolatry.

I don't buy it. Idolatry is a state of mind which can be forgiven and restored. Nobody can continue to live their live supporting what we see Modern Liberals support, WHILE claiming christ. There'd be no repentance, etc.

[Dilloduck]

You're missing the point of the OP here Dillo...

If you read the opening post - it's clear thru scripture that there are signs of someone being a true believer in Christ - they take on the Spirit of God and have a distain for sin.

Commiting any ongoing act that's contrary to God would provide clear evidence that the spirit of God does not reside in the offender.

Again, read the scriptures from 1 John chapter 3 in the OP...

Does scripture say they are the only signs ? I know of no Christians who dont repeat some of the same sins over and over many times not even being aware of what they are doing. Jesus knew that.

[April15]

April, you would do well to educate yourself about what Christianity teaches, if you want to look credible criticizing it.....as it is, you simply look foolish.....I have been educated as a youth and young man. Time has taught me the truth that all religions are just stories for the weak minded. A way for the ancestors to quell revolt of the slave and to keep life worth living in insufferable times. The entire concept of afterlife is to promote order in the here and now OR you won't get to play in the Afterlife.
Let me look foolish. I do believe I am the one who is not foolish.

[darin]

Does scripture say they are the only signs ? I know of no Christians who dont repeat some of the same sins over and over many times not even being aware of what they are doing. Jesus knew that.

I'm not sure committing a sin over-and-over-again, without knowing it, IS a sin. Frankly, for those with the Holy Spirit, sins are immediately known. Sin in one's life doesn't "sneak in". There are clear sings for the believer.

I know what you mean, I suppose - but it's like this. Not just liberals, but I believe one who LITTERS cannot be born of christ. The arrogance behind littering shows me the person who litters feels "oh...somebody else will pick that up.." or "I'm so great, I'll do what I want!" When I litter, therefore, I feel literal conviction. That sorta thing.

[Dilloduck]

I don't buy it. Idolatry is a state of mind which can be forgiven and restored. Nobody can continue to live their live supporting what we see Modern Liberals support, WHILE claiming christ. There'd be no repentance, etc.

A liberals support isn't a state of mind?

[BoogyMan]

I heard the devil can cite scripture for his own purposes......

Just once GW, show where those scriptures were taken out of their context. You are the one who came in and threw down the accusation that they were and tried to claim they were being used for evil as you have above. How about you now step up and illustrate your claim.

I look forward to your substantive and illustrative response.

[darin]

It's a lifestyle. I'm saying idolatry can be 'fixed' and the person no-longer worships something. One can't "be" a liberal without buying-into their BS. Sorta like Homosexuality. One can be healed and restored - so they no longer live in their in. One can't be a practicing (insert sin)'er AND claim to have Christ's mindset...and stuff.

Make any sense, dillo?

[Dilloduck]

I'm not sure committing a sin over-and-over-again, without knowing it, IS a sin.

You underestimate the power of evil.

[Dilloduck]

It's a lifestyle. I'm saying idolatry can be 'fixed' and the person no-longer worships something. One can't "be" a liberal without buying-into their BS. Sorta like Homosexuality. One can be healed and restored - so they no longer live in their in. One can't be a practicing (insert sin)'er AND claim to have Christ's mindset...and stuff.

Make any sense, dillo?

no--because people do it ALL THE TIME.

[JohnDoe]

I don't buy it. Idolatry is a state of mind which can be forgiven and restored. Nobody can continue to live their live supporting what we see Modern Liberals support, WHILE claiming christ. There'd be no repentance, etc.
but how can a true christian support what republicans support? corruption, thievery, unnecessary killing of human beings in unnecessary war, torture, letting the poor starve if need be, not giving unto caesar what is his, hating thy enemy, not turning the cheek or walk the extra mile with their adversaries....

i could EASILY SAY OUTRIGHT that there is NO WAY a TRUE CHRISTIAN can be a conservative and support the republican party.

BUT I WOULD NOT DARE to presume such.

Arrogance is not of God, being HUMBLE is....

jd

[Dilloduck]

but how can a true christian support what republicans support? corruption, thievery, unnecessary killing of human beings in unnecessary war, torture, letting the poor starve if need be, not giving unto caesar what is his, hating thy enemy, not turning the cheek or walk the extra mile with their adversaries....

i could EASILY SAY OUTRIGHT that there is NO WAY a TRUE CHRISTIAN can be a conservative and support the republican party.

BUT I WOULD NOT DARE to presume such.

Arrogance is not of God, being HUMBLE is....

jd

I believe that liberals actually think that conservatives support what you say but I don't think you can find a conservative that will claim they support any of it.

[retiredman]

I believe that liberals actually think that conservatives support what you say but I don't think you can find a conservative that will claim they support any of it.

what? are you suggesting that conservatives were not enthusiastic supporters of shock and awe? Of Gonzalez' torture memo? Of doing away with food stamps and AFDC and WIC?

[Mr. P]

but how can a true christian support what republicans support? corruption, thievery, unnecessary killing of human beings in unnecessary war, torture, letting the poor starve if need be, not giving unto caesar what is his, hating thy enemy, not turning the cheek or walk the extra mile with their adversaries....

i could EASILY SAY OUTRIGHT that there is NO WAY a TRUE CHRISTIAN can be a conservative and support the republican party.

BUT I WOULD NOT DARE to presume such.

Arrogance is not of God, being HUMBLE is....

jd

Don't get into the same pit as the THUMPERS we have here, yer way more Christian than that. I'm sure of it.

[Dilloduck]

what? are you suggesting that conservatives were not enthusiastic supporters of shock and awe? Of Gonzalez' torture memo? Of doing away with food stamps and AFDC and WIC?

no

[JohnDoe]

He DID remove the law.. the law was Fullfilled thru him;

Christ DID Fulfill the law - what does that word mean?

- to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.):
- to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time.

We aren't under the OT law:

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 6:14
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 7:4, 6
Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross.

I have already said we are NOT under the Law and that Jesus fulfilled the law...MEANING as believers in Him we no longer have to Sacrafice a LAMB for forgiveness of sins as they had to do while UNDER the Law, Christ was our Sacrificial Lamb for once and for all.

But this does not mean you throw out the old testament.

If you differ with that opinion then I would like to know why cp?

jd

And let me ask you something else.... do you think that the Republican party is to blame for Senator Vitter's adultery? It is against the law in his home state I believe and you know if not it is against God's law....but since he is a republican and he committed adultery and who knows what else, with a prostitute, or several prostitutes, will the members of the republican party be held accountable before God for the sins of Vitter?

I THINK NOT!

So stop your bullshit and stop making me accountable for the sins of others. You are not God and ain't even close....and nor am I.

your self righteous crap is unbecoming of a SO CALLED TRUE CHRISTIAN.

pointing out what is right and what is wrong is one thing, but telling and saying people that you don't even know are NOT CHRISTIAN and are going to burn in hell.... is the unforgivable sin.

I pray for you and for darin to discern the difference.

jd

[retiredman]

what? are you suggesting that conservatives were not enthusiastic supporters of shock and awe? Of Gonzalez' torture memo? Of doing away with food stamps and AFDC and WIC?


no

are you suggesting that Jesus would be pleased with any of those things?

[-Cp]

I have already said we are NOT under the Law and that Jesus fulfilled the law...MEANING as believers in Him we no longer have to Sacrafice a LAMB for forgiveness of sins as they had to do while UNDER the Law, Christ was our Sacrificial Lamb for once and for all.

But this does not mean you throw out the old testament.

If you differ with that opinion then I would like to know why cp?

The Old Testament is important because it paints the backdrop of history leading up to Christ - its also full of important truths which are still applicable today. That said, however, as to what we'll be held accountable to before God someday? Yes, you could throw out the Old Testament in the sense that we're no longer bound or under the OT law. Since Christ, we're under Grace.




And let me ask you something else.... do you think that the Republican party is to blame for Senator Vitter's adultery? It is against the law in his home state I believe and you know if not it is against God's law....but since he is a republican and he committed adultery and who knows what else, with a prostitute, or several prostitutes, will the members of the republican party be held accountable before God for the sins of Vitter?

I THINK NOT!

So stop your bullshit and stop making me accountable for the sins of others. You are not God and ain't even close....and nor am I.

your self righteous crap is unbecoming of a SO CALLED TRUE CHRISTIAN.

pointing out what is right and what is wrong is one thing, but telling and saying people that you don't even know are NOT CHRISTIAN and are going to burn in hell.... is the unforgivable sin.

I pray for you and for darin to discern the difference.

jd

I'm not sure what Republicans have to do with this thread - as I pointed out to Dillo in an earlier post, Liberals are in both politcal camps.

Additionally, I haven't directed ANY post in this entire thread at you (this is the first) - nor have I ever said I'm God - pointing out God's teachings in his Word does not make one God.

In closing, it wasn't ME who CALLED anyone in particular a Non-Christian - what I did was show how - biblically - one cannot serve "two masters" (i.e. one cannot subscribe to modern liberal ideaology and be a Christian).

If you don't like the report don't get pissed at the reporter - take it up with God.

[PostmodernProphet]

are you suggesting that Jesus would be pleased with any of those things?


I would suggest that if you would make a huge scale and put all those things that conservatives do that Jesus would not be pleased with on one side......and all those things that liberals do that Jesus would not be pleased with on the other side.....that the whole blamed business would slide down into hell in a moment, just from the sheer weight of it......

[JohnDoe]

Don't get into the same pit as the THUMPERS we have here, yer way more Christian than that. I'm sure of it.


first! thank you

and lastly, i was giving an exageration, MOCKING what these 2 have done towards any liberal of today, substituting it with Conservatives or republicans.

BUT PLEASE NOTE!!!

i specifically stated i would not even consider to presume that all republicans could NOT be Christians or were not Christians based on that ''list'' i made up above or because of what a politician has done....

i believe that we will be judged as individual, a personal judgement, i will not be judged by the actions of other people that so happen to be in the same political party as me.

it is hard enough to keep this little body of mine, doing the right thing all the time, let alone for me, to have to account for everyone elses transgressions or beliefs that happen to be in my political party....ya know?

and it gets a little irritating sometimes listening to and reading this blatent hypocrisy from cp and dmp and those supporting this kind of unGodly ''think'' that comes out of the mouths of these 2!!!

see?

even i fall short on this....not being able to be patient indefinately, and turn the cheek 4-ever...instead of loosing it. Great, another sin to add to my many!! :(

jd

[diuretic]

Jeez the bible-bashing fundies are at it again. Get over it. The book is ancient, it hasn't been amended - unlike your constitution - and it's not to be taken literally. You know sometimes I think fundies do this because they're too thick to understand the purpose of the bible. It's not intended to be read as the word, it's intended to be read in conjunction with reason. At least the Catholics got it right.

[darin]

but how can a true christian support what republicans support? corruption, thievery, unnecessary killing of human beings in unnecessary war, torture, letting the poor starve if need be, not giving unto caesar what is his, hating thy enemy, not turning the cheek or walk the extra mile with their adversaries....


i could EASILY SAY OUTRIGHT that there is NO WAY a TRUE CHRISTIAN can be a conservative and support the republican party.

BUT I WOULD NOT DARE to presume such.

Arrogance is not of God, being HUMBLE is....

jd



Ya know - you are such a tool for that right there. That right there PROVES beyond reasonable doubt you are the most intellectually dishonest person in this thread. That right there proves your asinine comments aren't worthy of serious, adult, intelligent debate.

[JohnDoe]

Ya know - you are such a tool for that right there. That right there PROVES beyond reasonable doubt you are the most intellectually dishonest person in this thread. That right there proves your asinine comments aren't worthy of serious, adult, intelligent debate.

You are the MOST tempermental trigger happy poster that I have ever come across.....

What are you talking about? What proves all those insults you called me?


You are pretty SLOW, if you can not see what I did to MOCK what you and your brother have said about liberals....

I was pointing out that I can throw crap out, with the best of them and that includes yours.

In other words, I too can shoot out a hundred kazillion reasons of why a Christian can not be a conservative just as cp has thrown out his kazillion reasons of why liberals of today can not be Christians...

BUT, I also said that I would NEVER, EVER PRESUME that all republicans can not be Christians based on the actions of some corrupt people or immoral people in their party and I don't think you and cp should be doing that either.

Let's just end it at that, your 3 finger jerks in a row for the same subject clearly shows you can't deal with any kind of debate on this particular subject without letting your anxiety take over....

peace be with you....and calm down, this isn't the end of the world....we are on a DEBATE SITE aren't we?

jd

[Immanuel]

You are the MOST tempermental trigger happy poster that I have ever come across.....



Even worse than me? Impossible.

Immie

[darin]

You are the MOST tempermental trigger happy poster that I have ever come across.....

What are you talking about? What proves all those insults you called me?


your words are the catalyst for my replies. Stop posting crap.


You are pretty SLOW, if you can not see what I did to MOCK what you and your brother have said about liberals....


IF that's true, that was a VERY STUPID comparison. He quoted liberal ideals on abortion and morality - based on the very views they proclaim. You went all stupid and off the wall.


I was pointing out that I can throw crap out, with the best of them and that includes yours.

In other words, I too can shoot out a hundred kazillion reasons of why a Christian can not be a conservative just as cp has thrown out his kazillion reasons of why liberals of today can not be Christians...

No...actually you can't because conservatives tend to fall in line with things like loving one's neighbor, defending one's nation, strong morality, etc. Liberals, by their own admission, do NOT. Said another way, the ideals Modern Liberals SHOUT from the proverbial rooftops are at COMPLETE odds with Christianity. -Cp gave a few examples. Honest examples. I'm VERY SORRY if your feelings are hurt, but what he said is absolute truth.


BUT, I also said that I would NEVER, EVER PRESUME that all republicans can not be Christians based on the actions of some corrupt people or immoral people in their party and I don't think you and cp should be doing that either.


Are you mental? We're talking about LIBS here...not republicans or democrats.


Let's just end it at that, your 3 finger jerks in a row for the same subject clearly shows you can't deal with any kind of debate on this particular subject without letting your anxiety take over....

peace be with you....and calm down, this isn't the end of the world....we are on a DEBATE SITE aren't we?

jd


You don't debate - you ATTACK. You prod and bitch and whine. You are intellectually incapable of debating without getting personal - ESPECIALLY to me. Stop playing coy - you MUST realize the bullshit you post - I believe you are doing it simply to stir up trouble. Very weak, JD....I had hopes for you - but you've proven time and again to be unable to simply 'debate'.

You post bullshit - complete bullshit...so I neg-rep it.

You post something well-thought-out a few posts later, so I POSITIVE rep it...

then...back to the bullshit, and you get dinged again.

It's YOU with the problem...not me.

[JohnDoe]

your words are the catalyst for my replies. Stop posting crap.



IF that's true, that was a VERY STUPID comparison. He quoted liberal ideals on abortion and morality - based on the very views they proclaim. You went all stupid and off the wall.



No...actually you can't because conservatives tend to fall in line with things like loving one's neighbor, defending one's nation, strong morality, etc. Liberals, by their own admission, do NOT. Said another way, the ideals Modern Liberals SHOUT from the proverbial rooftops are at COMPLETE odds with Christianity. -Cp gave a few examples. Honest examples. I'm VERY SORRY if your feelings are hurt, but what he said is absolute truth.



Are you mental? We're talking about LIBS here...not republicans or democrats.




You don't debate - you ATTACK. You prod and bitch and whine. You are intellectually incapable of debating without getting personal - ESPECIALLY to me. Stop playing coy - you MUST realize the bullshit you post - I believe you are doing it simply to stir up trouble. Very weak, JD....I had hopes for you - but you've proven time and again to be unable to simply 'debate'.

You post bullshit - complete bullshit...so I neg-rep it.

You post something well-thought-out a few posts later, so I POSITIVE rep it...

then...back to the bullshit, and you get dinged again.

It's YOU with the problem...not me.

do you have to hand out 8 reps, like the rest of the posters here before hitting the same poster again? if so it means you had to dish out 24 reps to them .... to give me my 3 from you in a row for the same thread? please answer that question for me.

and yes, we have not hit it off well since i have been here, i can agree.

but what i have posted tonight, i have no plans of retracting. i firmly believe what cp and you tag along with, is simply wrong and i have given the kazillion reasons of why....

this is a debate site, not romper room, if u can't take in, what you dish out, then STOP dishing it out....and try to use some ''reasoning'' in your reponses without feeling the need to attack people with your insulting and degrading comments in the reps, please....i don't care about the rep points, but you're lacking the Christian NATURE that you claim to have imo, in this very thread, which makes you a liar imo, or should i say a phony?

i tell ya what, i won't debate or respond to anything you post and feel free to ignore all of mine....thanks.

jd

[darin]

do you have to hand out 8 reps, like the rest of the posters here before hitting the same poster again? if so it means you had to dish out 24 reps to them .... to give me my 3 from you in a row for the same thread? please answer that question for me.


Absolutely not. Your reps should be about 0 from me...two neg at 1/2 strength, one positive at full, iirc.



and yes, we have not hit it off well since i have been here, i can agree.

but what i have posted tonight, i have no plans of retracting. i firmly believe what cp and you tag along with, is simply wrong and i have given the kazillion reasons of why....

this is a debate site, not romper room, if u can't take in, what you dish out, then STOP dishing it out....and try to use some ''reasoning'' in your reponses without feeling the need to attack people with your insulting and degrading comments in the reps, please....i don't care about the rep points, but you're lacking the Christian NATURE that you claim to have imo, in this very thread, which makes you a liar imo, or should i say a phony?

i tell ya what, i won't debate or respond to anything you post and feel free to ignore all of mine....thanks.

jd

You are a phony. You're a fraud. Knock it off.

[retiredman]

You are a phony. You're a fraud. Knock it off.

stand your ground, jd! I have known you for long enough and know of few souls on the internet more gentle and sincere and Christian than yours. You and Immie are the standard. Yahoos like this douche already got banned from one board for being insufferable and obnoxious. Many many of the things in this world that he supports are making Jesus weep, no doubt.

[Abbey Marie]

That's how it appears darin, when you post threads that say Why a TRUE CHRISTIAN can not support modern Liberalism or (Democrats)...

THAT, in and of itself was a sin. And maybe even the unforgivable sin- a sin that blasphemed the Holy Spirit who is within me and my family....your brother and you DENIED the holy Spirit's pressense, as the pharisees did with Christ.

and you also call us in so many words "fools", even though we are believers in Jesus Christ as our Savior....and I won't say it any further than this, you know you have a temper because you just used it to lash out...

And Please stop with the idea that I think I am better than you, because I am NOT in any way less of a sinner than you or anyone.... I do not see myself as holier than thou, I see myself as a sinner and believe me I know my own struggles with sin quite well and as a sinner, in need of Christ's mercy and in need of the Salvation he brought to us.

I just see you two coming off a little holier than thou, not me....and maybe I have taken the both of you wrongly and misunderstand what it is that you are trying to do in the name of Jesus Christ? Christ did not come to condemn the world, but to SAVE the world....and he did not come to completely remove the Law, he came to fullfill the Law is what He said himself...the Jews took the Law out of context and abused it.

And yes, we have a New Covenent in Christ Jesus, he removed the burden of the Law from us, but he did NOT remove the Law!!! Those under the burden of the Law will be judged by the Law, those under the new covenent have Jesus Christ as the substitute for the Sacrificial Lamb under the Law is my understanding of it....but it does not mean that we throw the old testament away.... at least this is how I was taught?

I know I will fall short, no matter how hard I try...there is no one harder on me than myself, when it comes to critiquing how I have lived and do live my own life....and when I question you like I have, it is to make you think a little more about what you are doing in circumstances like this and that is telling someone who is truely Born Again of the Spirit and of Water, a Christian head to toe, with the Holy Ghost inside of her, that she can not have recived God's calling and Grace...

You Blaspheme God-the Holy Spirit when you and cp do the kind of garbage you have done with a thread like this or the thread about paradise where cp says liberals need not reply....

it is just simply WRONG and not of a Christian NATURE in the least imho.

jd

This post is a perfect example of the fact that you, JohnDoe, are the most judgmental poster I have seen on two boards. Yes, others are guilty of this as well, but not nearly to the extent you are. It is a regular habit of yours to question people's Christianity. Re-read the judgmental stuff you've posted here; it is just one example of many, many others.

Yes, it is your right to do so, but it would be awfully wonderful if you would just... stop.

[diuretic]

Abbey

This statement - Here are just a few important reasons why a True Christian cannot be a modern liberal... - is pure bigotry. You can't, in all conscience, condemn someone who takes the sword to such utter bigotry. Yes, there may be casualties but the original premise is calculated to provoke disgust. This is a statement, not of a reasoning Christian, but a mindless fundamentalist. I may be an atheist/agnostic (I have to get used to others telling me what I think) but I was baptised and raised as a Catholic and I remember enough of my religious upbringing to know that at least in Catholicism I was taught to reason as well as to believe. It so happens that me and the Credo parted company and of course that's fatal to belief but I remain grateful that Catholicism allowed me to reason and dissuaded me from the bigotry of fundamentalism.

[Dilloduck]

Abbey

This statement - Here are just a few important reasons why a True Christian cannot be a modern liberal... - is pure bigotry. You can't, in all conscience, condemn someone who takes the sword to such utter bigotry. Yes, there may be casualties but the original premise is calculated to provoke disgust. This is a statement, not of a reasoning Christian, but a mindless fundamentalist. I may be an atheist/agnostic (I have to get used to others telling me what I think) but I was baptised and raised as a Catholic and I remember enough of my religious upbringing to know that at least in Catholicism I was taught to reason as well as to believe. It so happens that me and the Credo parted company and of course that's fatal to belief but I remain grateful that Catholicism allowed me to reason and dissuaded me from the bigotry of fundamentalism.

Agreed---maybe a definition of a "true" Christian and a true " modern liberal" may make the thread a bit less than a blanket condemnation.

[darin]

Abbey

This statement - Here are just a few important reasons why a True Christian cannot be a modern liberal... - is pure bigotry. You can't, in all conscience, condemn someone who takes the sword to such utter bigotry. Yes, there may be casualties but the original premise is calculated to provoke disgust. This is a statement, not of a reasoning Christian, but a mindless fundamentalist. I may be an atheist/agnostic (I have to get used to others telling me what I think) but I was baptised and raised as a Catholic and I remember enough of my religious upbringing to know that at least in Catholicism I was taught to reason as well as to believe. It so happens that me and the Credo parted company and of course that's fatal to belief but I remain grateful that Catholicism allowed me to reason and dissuaded me from the bigotry of fundamentalism.

Would it be bigotry if the statement was "Here are a few reasons Atheists cannot be a true Christian:"

ANY philosophy one adopts, which is contrary to Christianity prevents that person from being a Christian. It's a no-brainer.

[Dilloduck]

Would it be bigotry if the statement was "Here are a few reasons Atheists cannot be a true Christian:"

ANY philosophy one adopts, which is contrary to Christianity prevents that person from being a Christian. It's a no-brainer.

I'm far less concerned about what somebody thinks than what some one does. Is a conservative who sins a "true" Christian?

[darin]

I'm far less concerned about what somebody thinks than what some one does. Is a conservative who sins a "true" Christian?

Your question is dishonest because you're assuming Conservatives ARE christians.

You are hung up on specific "sins" - I'm trying to get you to understand a modern liberal adopts a set of beliefs - a canon - which are at odds with Christianity.

This isn't about specific 'mistakes' but about a lifestyle and philosophy, politically and socially, which contradict the message of Christ.

[diuretic]

Would it be bigotry if the statement was "Here are a few reasons Atheists cannot be a true Christian:"


Atheist and Christian are contradictory so the two can't be proposed in the same statement.



ANY philosophy one adopts, which is contrary to Christianity prevents that person from being a Christian. It's a no-brainer.

Christianity isn't a philosophy, it's a religion. A religion requires an element of faith. I don't mean to be difficult but faith can accompany reason (I've made that point I know) where reason illuminates faith but reason can also snuff out faith and that's philosophy territory.

[Dilloduck]

Your question is dishonest because you're assuming Conservatives ARE christians.

You are hung up on specific "sins" - I'm trying to get you to understand a modern liberal adopts a set of beliefs - a canon - which are at odds with Christianity.

This isn't about specific 'mistakes' but about a lifestyle and philosophy, politically and socially, which contradict the message of Christ.

No more dishonest than saying liberals aren't Christian. Why don't you just give us a definition of a "true" Christian and we can go from there ?

[darin]

Atheist and Christian are contradictory so the two can't be proposed in the same statement.


Absolutely - the same way 'liberal' and 'christian' are contradictory IMO.


Christianity isn't a philosophy, it's a religion. A religion requires an element of faith. I don't mean to be difficult but faith can accompany reason (I've made that point I know) where reason illuminates faith but reason can also snuff out faith and that's philosophy territory.

Okay. Doesn't change my point, but good input. (shrug).

[Abbey Marie]

Abbey

This statement - Here are just a few important reasons why a True Christian cannot be a modern liberal... - is pure bigotry. You can't, in all conscience, condemn someone who takes the sword to such utter bigotry. Yes, there may be casualties but the original premise is calculated to provoke disgust. This is a statement, not of a reasoning Christian, but a mindless fundamentalist. I may be an atheist/agnostic (I have to get used to others telling me what I think) but I was baptised and raised as a Catholic and I remember enough of my religious upbringing to know that at least in Catholicism I was taught to reason as well as to believe. It so happens that me and the Credo parted company and of course that's fatal to belief but I remain grateful that Catholicism allowed me to reason and dissuaded me from the bigotry of fundamentalism.


It is beyond hypocritical to claim offense at the original post's jab at lib Christianity, while simultaneously accusing dmp for committing the unforgivable sin and of being a bad Christian. If JD is truly horrfied at the original post, the last thing she should be doing is making even worse accusations about another's relationship with God. That's utter hypocrisy in action.

Put another way, one cannot rise above and sink below at the same time.

[Hagbard Celine]

Would it be bigotry if the statement was "Here are a few reasons Atheists cannot be a true Christian:"

ANY philosophy one adopts, which is contrary to Christianity prevents that person from being a Christian. It's a no-brainer.

lib·er·al /ˈlɪbərəl, ˈlɪbrəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lib-er-uhl, lib-ruhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3. of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism.
4. favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, esp. as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5. favoring or permitting freedom of action, esp. with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.
6. of or pertaining to representational forms of government rather than aristocracies and monarchies.
7. free from prejudice or bigotry; tolerant: a liberal attitude toward foreigners.
8. open-minded or tolerant, esp. free of or not bound by traditional or conventional ideas, values, etc.
9. characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts: a liberal donor.
10. given freely or abundantly; generous: a liberal donation.
11. not strict or rigorous; free; not literal: a liberal interpretation of a rule.
12. of, pertaining to, or based on the liberal arts.
13. of, pertaining to, or befitting a freeman.
–noun 14. a person of liberal principles or views, esp. in politics or religion.
15. (often initial capital letter) a member of a liberal party in politics, esp. of the Liberal party in Great Britain.

Jesus said "love thy neighbor." It isn't the children of "libs" we're seeing hanging nooses on school campuses. It isn't "libs" we're hearing making bigoted statements on the airwaves. it isn't "libs" we're seeing protesting gays with signs that say things like "God hates fags." It isn't the idiot "libs" who hold the pro-war point of view.

[Sir Evil]

Most interesting is some that are making arguments here are the same ones that find it a need to bring up these beliefs when it fits their arguments just so they can attack the right. :dunno:

[darin]

No more dishonest than saying liberals aren't Christian. Why don't you just give us a definition of a "true" Christian and we can go from there ?


Because one cannot value and support LIBERAL doctrine and the Doctrine of Christ. While not all conservatives are christians, christians are by their belief in christ, 'conservative' as compared to modern liberals.

A true Christian is one who follows the teachings of christ. One who believes in the 100% unfailing accuracy of the Bible when taken in context.

I'm saying - I don't know how to state it more clearly - If I support Modern Liberal ideals I will be contradicted, because many of those ideals are at odds with my Christianity.

Get it?

[Abbey Marie]

Oh, and for the record, I do not believe that libs cannot be Christians. It could be hard, though, to reconcile some of those "rights" that libs tend to hold so dear, with the principles of the Bible. But it all depends on their specific beliefs.

[darin]

Jesus said "love thy neighbor." It isn't the children of "libs" we're seeing hanging nooses on school campuses. It isn't "libs" we're hearing making bigoted statements on the airwaves. it isn't "libs" we're seeing protesting gays with signs that say things like "God hates fags." It isn't the idiot "libs" who hold the pro-war point of view.


It's particularly nauseating to see somebody with NO expressed interest in Christ trying to explain something Christ said. You don't see ME on here telling you how CNN is run. You're wrong, HB. You're wrong on several accounts.

Love your neighbor as yourself means: "Don't kill babies. Don't encourage destructive behaviour. Kick their ass when they need an ass-kicking - For their OWN good. Don't steal THEIR money to give it to a lazy person who refuses to work hard for what he/she has or wants" etc...


Oh, and for the record, I do not believe that libs cannot be Christians. It could be hard, though, to reconcile some of those "rights" that libs tend hold so dear, with the principles of the Bible. But it all depends on their specific beliefs.

absolutely reasonable viewpoint.

[Dilloduck]

Because one cannot value and support LIBERAL doctrine and the Doctrine of Christ. While not all conservatives are christians, christians are by their belief in christ, 'conservative' as compared to modern liberals.

A true Christian is one who follows the teachings of christ. One who believes in the 100% unfailing accuracy of the Bible when taken in context.

I'm saying - I don't know how to state it more clearly - If I support Modern Liberal ideals I will be contradicted, because many of those ideals are at odds with my Christianity.

Get it?

Do you know anyone who completely understands the Bible? Whose context are you talking about? Does a "True Christian" follow the teachings of Christ 100% of the time?

[Immanuel]

It is beyond hypocritical to claim offense at the original post's jab at lib Christianity, while simultaneously accusing dmp for committing the unforgivable sin and of being a bad Christian. If JD is truly horrfied at the original post, the last thing she should be doing is making even worse accusations about another's relationship with God. That's utterly hypocritical bs in action.

Put another way, one cannot rise above and sink below at the same time.

But the fact is that the original post was designed to provoke.

While it is hypocritical to attack the original post with the same tone and attack, this would not have happened if the tone of the original post were done in Love and not as it was, and I must say being new here, I see the original post as being hateful. It does not appear Christlike to me.

I do not understand why you and dmp, as Christians, would defend the one and attack the other.

I do not understand how a Christian who professes Christ's love and the Grace that we receive from the Cross could post something like what started this discussion. I realize there must be a reason, but I fail to see it. I for one would not go up to a liberal shouting at them that they were going to Hell because they did not understand what I understood. It seems to me that the Apostle Paul had some words about this very things in Romans, Chapter 2 I believe. Prayer for that liberal would be the place to start followed by opening one's heart to them in love.

Whatever -Cp's reasons for posting this, on this one, I think he (I hope it is a he, if not please forgive me) is wrong in his method. IMHO

Please clue me in on how a Christian can appear to display so much hatred to those around him or her who are unsaved. Christ came for the sinner, not the righteous.

Okay, I've said enough and gotten myself in a heck of a lot of trouble. Think I will just shut up now and duck!

Immie

[Abbey Marie]

But the fact is that the original post was designed to provoke.

While it is hypocritical to attack the original post with the same tone and attack, this would not have happened if the tone of the original post were done in Love and not as it was, and I must say being new here, I see the original post as being hateful. It does not appear Christlike to me.
...



I appreciate your thoughtful response, Immanuel.
But yes, I have already said that libs can be Christians. But defending JD's obnoxious post to Dmp is really not right. It is very personally slanderous to him as Christian, which IMO makes it far worse than -Cp's generalizations about an amorphous political group. And to say that being hypocritical is virtually required behavior on JD's part because the original post is bad is not right either.
1. To tell dmp he has committed the unforgivable sin is beyond judgmental
2. To condemn a Christian's relationship with God while complaining about the op, is hypocritical

Judgmental and hypocritical. Perhaps not the qualities of someone who throws the first stone.

[Dilloduck]

I appreciate your thoughtful response, Immanuel.
But yes, I have already said that libs can be Christians. But defending JD's obnoxious post to Dmp is really not right. It is very personally slanderous to him as Christian, which IMO makes it far worse than -Cp's generalizations about an amorphous political group. And to say that being hypocritical is virtually required behavior on JD's part because the original post is bad is not right either.
1. To tell dmp he has committed the unforgivable sin is beyond judgmental
2. To condemn a Christian's relationship with God while complaining about the op, is hypocritical

Judgmental and hypocritical. Perhaps not the qualities of someone who throws the first stone.


The thread title itself condemns Christian Liberals. Who threw the first stone here?

[Abbey Marie]

The thread title itself condemns Christian Liberals. Who threw the first stone here?

Who threw the first personal stone here?

[darin]

Do you know anyone who completely understands the Bible? Whose context are you talking about? Does a "True Christian" follow the teachings of Christ 100% of the time?

Absolutely. I understand the Bible. A true Christian Follows Christ's teachings all the time. And fails, too.

[Immanuel]

I appreciate your thoughtful response, Immanuel.
But yes, I have already said that libs can be Christians. But defending JD's obnoxious post to Dmp is really not right. It is very personally slanderous to him as Christian, which IMO makes it far worse than -Cp's generalizations about an amorphous political group. And to say that being hypocritical is virtually required behavior on JD's part because the original post is bad is not right either.
1. To tell dmp he has committed the unforgivable sin is beyond judgmental
2. To condemn a Christian's relationship with God



However, is this not what -Cp has done to Liberals? He has told them that they were Hellbound because they do not see eye to eye with him.

Also would you define blasphemy for me?

In layman's terms, I would define it as placing oneself in the position of God. I would not accuse -Cp of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that was a very poor choice of words for jd to use, but by judging the condition of their souls, -Cp has in my humble opinion blasphemed by putting himself in God's place of being judge over these people.

Immie

[darin]

However, is this not what -Cp has done to Liberals? He has told them that they were Hellbound because they do not see eye to eye with him.


-Cp is, and I am, telling folk who claim Christ, to stop being lukewarm in their faith. We're telling Libs who Claim Christ to take a stand. To examine their OTHER beliefs to see if they fall inline with our example in the Bible. We're saying you may be hell-bound because you don't see eye to eye with CHRIST...not us.

[Dilloduck]

Who threw the first personal stone here?

Now THAT would take months of research but personal stones fly thick and heavy here these days and those that throw them back are no better.

[Dilloduck]

Absolutely. I understand the Bible. A true Christian Follows Christ's teachings all the time. And fails, too.

so true Christians sin?

[Dilloduck]

-Cp is, and I am, telling folk who claim Christ, to stop being lukewarm in their faith. We're telling Libs who Claim Christ to take a stand. To examine their OTHER beliefs to see if they fall inline with our example in the Bible. We're saying you may be hell-bound because you don't see eye to eye with CHRIST...not us.

Fine----and I would advise you to spend more time doing the same.

[Hagbard Celine]

It's particularly nauseating to see somebody with NO expressed interest in Christ trying to explain something Christ said

I recommend Pepto Bismol for nausea. It might also help with your melodrama.

[darin]

so true Christians sin?

From time to time - it's inevitable.


Fine----and I would advise you to spend more time doing the same.

My thoughts and ideals politically and socially fit in and mesh (because they are driven by) my Faith.

:)

It's how I love YOU, you old fart.

:D

:cheers2:

[Immanuel]

-Cp is, and I am, telling folk who claim Christ, to stop being lukewarm in their faith. We're telling Libs who Claim Christ to take a stand. To examine their OTHER beliefs to see if they fall inline with our example in the Bible. We're saying you may be hell-bound because you don't see eye to eye with CHRIST...not us.

Fine and what would be your response to a Liberal that walked up to you and said, "You are Hellbound because you do not take care of the needy as Christ has clearly taught and listed a dozen more reasons why conservatives are hellbound"?

I think it may be difficult to answer that question in this case because clearly it would be difficult for you to answer that you would be offended by it. I know I would be. In fact, I might even deck the liberal! Well, probably not, but if my anger didn't get the best of me, I would turn my back on him and walk away.

The excuse that has been given is that -Cp didn't point fingers at anyone person. That is no excuse. It was clear who this thread was supposed to hurt and hurt it did.

Immie

[Dilloduck]

In the end, it's not up to the person to declare himself or herself a "Christian" - it's up to Christ. :)

You shoulda stopped here

[darin]

Fine and what would be your response to a Liberal that walked up to you and said, "You are Hellbound because you do not take care of the needy as Christ has clearly taught and listed a dozen more reasons why conservatives are hellbound"?

Liberals don't tend to take care of the needy. I'd be quite shocked, actually, then have pity on the person for their misunderstanding.



I think it may be difficult to answer that question in this case because clearly it would be difficult for you to answer that you would be offended by it. I know I would be. In fact, I might even deck the liberal! Well, probably not, but if my anger didn't get the best of me, I would turn my back on him and walk away.


I so rarely get offended - People easily offended are arrogant.



The excuse that has been given is that -Cp didn't point fingers at anyone person. That is no excuse. It was clear who this thread was supposed to hurt and hurt it did.

Immie

But it's true. It's very true. I'm here trying to HELP folk like you who are double-minded. You claim christ with one breath, then support clearly anti-christian principles in other breaths.

[Immanuel]

From time to time - it's inevitable.



My thoughts and ideals politically and socially fit in and mesh (because they are driven by) my Faith.

:)

It's how I love YOU, you old fart.

:D

:cheers2:

Okay, that was good, but could not the political and social ideals of the Liberal also mesh with their faith?

None of us understand the Word of God to its fullest. A liberal that believes Christ loves the poor and needy will do what he or she believes Christ would have them do. A conservative that believes that Christ loves the needy and would tell them to pick themselves up and go get a job rather than mouching off the system will follow their faith and believe they are helping by working to get the needy to take care of themselves.

Maybe God put us both here in order to accomplish his goal of spreading the Gospel to all nations? The liberal can reach the needy while the conservative reach those who need Christ yet are rich in earthly treasures.

Immie

[Immanuel]

Liberals don't tend to take care of the needy. I'd be quite shocked, actually, then have pity on the person for their misunderstanding.

That I won't disagree with, but right or wrong, it is where their heart is.






But it's true. It's very true. I'm here trying to HELP folk like you who are double-minded. You claim christ with one breath, then support clearly anti-christian principles in other breaths.

Yeah? Well, think what you want. I'll let Christ decide where I spend eternity. Not you. ;)

Immie

[Dilloduck]

Christians are TASKED to call-out those not acting in accordance with scripture. Calling somebody on their opinions or actions is an act of LOVE.

Maybe you could help me by showing me where Christians are tasked to
"call-out those not acting in accordance with scripture. "
and how they were to do this "calling out".

[darin]

Okay, that was good, but could not the political and social ideals of the Liberal also mesh with their faith?

Doubtfully. How could one reconcile advocating the killing of babies without cause? How could one reconcile the idea of taking money from folk who rightly earned it? How could one reconcile keeping poor people, poor? How could one reconcile advocating hatred towards religious folk, or straight folk? How could one reconcile restricting free speech?



None of us understand the Word of God to its fullest. A liberal that believes Christ loves to poor and needy will do what he or she believes Christ would have them do. A conservative that believes that Christ loves the needy and would tell them to pick themselves up and go get a job rather than mouching off the system will follow their faith and believe they are helping by working to get the needy to take care of themselves.

This is why you're wrong - Telling somebody - or helping/encouraging somebody to help themselves out of their poverty is helping the needy. Giving to them freely without teaching them how to better their situation only perpetuates their poverty. It's the whole "Teach a man to fish" (conservatives) vs "Give a man a fish" (Liberals). FWIW, conservatives are MUCH more generous with their giving, than liberals.


Maybe God put us both here in order to accomplish his goal of spreading the Gospel to all nations? The liberal can reach the needy while the conservative reach those who need Christ yet are rich in earthly treasures.

Immie

That doesn't make any sense. Liberals don't reach the needy. Conservatives aren't rich. It's not universal like that. Statistically, as I mentioned above, Liberals are FAR LESS GIVING financially. Am I rich, because I'm a conservative? Not financially. Frankly, I'm probably 'poor' by a LOT of liberals' standards (and conservatives, too I'd guess).


That I won't disagree, but right or wrong, it is where there heart is.

Right.




Yeah? Well, think what you want. I'll let Christ decide where I spend eternity. Not you.

Immie

Yet you'd continue to support concepts and Ideals which are decidedly anti-Christian? Just doesn't pass my common-sense test.

[Dilloduck]

Doubtfully. How could one reconcile advocating the killing of babies without cause? How could one reconcile the idea of taking money from folk who rightly earned it? How could one reconcile keeping poor people, poor? How could one reconcile advocating hatred towards religious folk, or straight folk? How could one reconcile restricting free speech.

I would imagine it's similar to one trying to reconcile their lust for petty material things.

[darin]

I would imagine it's similar to one trying to reconcile their lust for petty material things.

Hrm...it COULD be...except they'd have to actually stop lusting. That's why liberalism and adherence to those ideals are so bad for people. If I lust for something, I repent and stop lusting. I can't stop supporting liberal viewpoints which are contradictory to Christianity and call myself a liberal, for example.

[Immanuel]

Doubtfully. How could one reconcile advocating the killing of babies without cause?

Don't ask me. Abortion is an abomination. Not all Liberals support abortion. One can feel that the government should have nothing to do with the issue and that we as Christians should pray and teach others of Christ's love and the error of abortion without the government's intervention.



How could one reconcile the idea of taking money from folk who rightly earned it?

Again, don't ask me, that is not my stance. Although I am certain there are those among the left that believe by giving a hand out to the needy that they are helping. I don't agree with that philosophy.

A hand up is much more effective than a hand out.


How could one reconcile keeping poor people, poor?

One can't, but then when one believes that they are helping the poor by feeding them one believes that one is not keeping the poor, poor but rather enriching them. Simply because they don't understand that they are in fact making things worse does not mean they do not have a servant's heart.


How could one reconcile advocating hatred towards religious folk, or straight folk? How could one reconcile restricting free speech?

Again, don't ask me. I never said all liberals were Christian rather that Christianity is not an exclusive club for conservatives.

Now, for the issue of Free Speech that gets out of the realm of faith. I don't believe you will find "Freedom of Speech" in the Bible. That is an American right given to us in the Bill of Rights.




This is why you're wrong - Telling somebody - or helping/encouraging somebody to help themselves out of their poverty is helping the needy.

I agree, but one who takes the liberal persuasion may see different needs than I do. You won't help the poor by continuing to feed them yet preventing them from getting out of their situation, although, at least the poor won't starve.


Giving to them freely without teaching them how to better their situation only perpetuates their poverty. It's the whole "Teach a man to fish" (conservatives) vs "Give a man a fish" (Liberals).

100% agree, however, until the needy learn to fish somebody ought to be giving them a fish to eat.




FWIW, conservatives are MUCH more generous with their giving, than liberals.

FWIW? Don't know that abbreviation.

I won't disagree. We've been given a bum wrap by the liberals, but acting like they do won't change that. What's that saying... "Put your money where your mouth is."? We have to earn our way out of the lie that we hate the poor.



Yet you'd continue to support concepts and Ideals which are decidedly anti-Christian? Just doesn't pass my common-sense test.

No, what I would do is think about that ever familiar abbreviation that is going around now days... WWJD. I'd think, What would Jesus do to save the unsaved Liberal, then I would answer the real WWJD question for them. Why Would Jesus Die? He didn't die for Conservative philosophy. He died to rescue the sinner whether that sinner is liberal, conservative or anything in between.

With respect and regards,

Immie

[darin]

Don't ask me. Abortion is an abomination. Not all Liberals support abortion. One can feel that the government should have nothing to do with the issue and that we as Christians should pray and teach others of Christ's love and the error of abortion without the government's intervention.


I don't think it's enough to take a hands-off approach...a laissez faire attitude.


Again, don't ask me, that is not my stance. Although I am certain there are those among the left that believe by giving a hand out to the needy that they are helping. I don't agree with that philosophy.


Maybe you aren't REALLY a liberal?


One can't, but then when one believes that they are helping the poor by feeding them one believes that one is not keeping the poor, poor but rather enriching them. Simply because they don't understand that they are in fact making things worse does not mean they do not have a servant's heart.


Perhaps one is WRONG then? Simply feeding somebody or enabling their poverty is NOT helping them. It's hurting them. That kind of "giving" only helps the giver.



Now, for the issue of Free Speech that gets out of the realm of faith. I don't believe you will find "Freedom of Speech" in the Bible. That is an American right given to us in the Bill of Rights.


I'm not sure it DOES get out of the realm of faith, because the free speech Liberals are trying to destroy is speech stemming from faith, quite often.


I agree, but one who takes the liberal persuasion may see different needs than I do. You won't help the poor by continuing to feed them yet preventing them from getting out of their situation, although, at least the poor won't starve.



Then perhaps they are just seeing things wrong? Nobody will starve if they have enough motivation to find something to eat. See what I'm getting at?


100% agree, however, until the needy learn to fish somebody ought to be giving them a fish to eat.

How many? One fish? ten? People not helping themselves are not being helped by hand-outs.


FWIW? Don't know that abbreviation.


For What It's Worth.


I won't disagree. We've been given a bum wrap by the liberals, but acting like they do won't change that. What's that saying... "Put your money where your mouth is."? We have to earn our way out of the lie that we hate the poor.


It's a myth - it's a myth started by and furthered BY liberals.


No, what I would do is think about that ever familiar abbreviation that is going around now days... WWJD. I'd think, What would Jesus do to save the unsaved Liberal, then I would answer the real WWJD question for them. Why Would Jesus Die? He didn't die for Conservative philosophy. He died to rescue the sinner whether that sinner is liberal, conservative or anything in between.

With respect and regards,

Immie

Absolutely. The key to understanding this entire thread is right there. Liberals supporting and furthering some of the things liberals support and further SEPARATE themselves from Christianity. I'm saying "Watch what you believe politically, and socially, because if it contradicts with your claimed Faith, your faith is in vain....it's useless because you aren't practicing it in every area of your life. I'm saying to Christians who claim to be liberals "Look - you're fighting your spiritual beliefs with your social beliefs. It's NOT okay to only take PART of scripture. It's NOT okay to support and perpetrate a hedonistic lifestyle and yet claim Christianity.

:)

:beer:

[-Cp]

You underestimate the power of evil.

And you GROSSLY underestimate the power of the Spirit to free us from being a slave to sin...

[Dilloduck]

And you GROSSLY underestimate the power of the Spirit to free us from being a slave to sin...

I beg to differ-- I think the spirit even can save you from the notion that you are able to make judgements between "real and fake" Christians.

[darin]

I beg to differ-- I think the spirit even can save you from the notion that you are able to make judgments between "real and fake" Christians.

The Spirit PROVIDES the means to discern Christian from un-believer. ;)

[Dilloduck]

The Spirit PROVIDES the means to discern Christian from un-believer. ;)

And you're pretty positive that you can pick the real ones from the fake ones?

[-Cp]

However, is this not what -Cp has done to Liberals? He has told them that they were Hellbound because they do not see eye to eye with him.

Also would you define blasphemy for me?

In layman's terms, I would define it as placing oneself in the position of God. I would not accuse -Cp of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, that was a very poor choice of words for jd to use, but by judging the condition of their souls, -Cp has in my humble opinion blasphemed by putting himself in God's place of being judge over these people.

Immie

I think you need to go to www.learnhowtoread.com - because I didn't say ANYONE was "hellbound for disagreeing with me" - did I?

Additionally, where did I Judge one's soul or put myself in the place of God?

ALL I DID - was show how Modern Liberalism ideals are at odds with scripture... if you don't like that - then take it up with God.. not me...

Jeesh..

[Dilloduck]

I think you need to go to www.learnhowtoread.com - because I didn't say ANYONE was "hellbound for disagreeing with me" - did I?

Additionally, where did I Judge one's soul or put myself in the place of God?

ALL I DID - was show how Modern Liberalism ideals are at odds with scripture... if you don't like that - then take it up with God.. not me...

Jeesh..

and being at odds with the Scripture makes one a fake Christian according to your standards ?

[Immanuel]

Maybe you aren't REALLY a liberal?

I AM NOT, I REPEAT NOT A LIBERAL! Not by any stretch of the immagination. However, nor do I believe that I have the right to judge whom God has shown favor to and to whom he has not.


Perhaps one is WRONG then? Simply feeding somebody or enabling their poverty is NOT helping them. It's hurting them. That kind of "giving" only helps the giver.

I share that belief, but show me where in the Word of God it says that one must be right in all things to be saved?




I'm not sure it DOES get out of the realm of faith, because the free speech Liberals are trying to destroy is speech stemming from faith, quite often.

Absolutely, but no one said, all Liberals were Christian. Not all liberals are trying to squelch free speech and I think we could both agree that there are conservatives that would like to squelch some free speech as well.




Then perhaps they are just seeing things wrong? Nobody will starve if they have enough motivation to find something to eat. See what I'm getting at?

You won't get an argument from me on that. Again, show me where in the Bible it says one must be right in all things to be saved. Wait! Don't show me that, because I cannot possibly attain salvation in that case!



How many? One fish? ten? People not helping themselves are not being helped by hand-outs.

Well, very briefly, my beliefs on Welfare is that we should limit the time it can be collected. We should provide On The Job Training for people on Welfare and we should provide daycare for parents who are on Welfare (in fact, some of the service required to recieve Welfare would be to help out in the daycare facilities) so that these parents can go out and get a job.



It's a myth - it's a myth started by and furthered BY liberals.

Agreed. I am evil and do not care for poor people because I am conservative. Not! But, does dropping to their level make me any better?




Absolutely. The key to understanding this entire thread is right there. Liberals supporting and furthering some of the things liberals support and further SEPARATE themselves from Christianity. I'm saying "Watch what you believe politically, and socially, because if it contradicts with your claimed Faith, your faith is in vain....it's useless because you aren't practicing it in every area of your life. I'm saying to Christians who claim to be liberals "Look - you're fighting your spiritual beliefs with your social beliefs. It's NOT okay to only take PART of scripture. It's NOT okay to support and perpetrate a hedonistic lifestyle and yet claim Christianity.

I won't disagree here, but look at it this way, how are you selling your message? Would you rather buy something from someone who tried to shoove it down your throat or the salesman that takes his time and explains things to you showing you the ins and outs of the product?

Immie

[Immanuel]

I think you need to go to www.learnhowtoread.com - because I didn't say ANYONE was "hellbound for disagreeing with me" - did I?

Additionally, where did I Judge one's soul or put myself in the place of God?

ALL I DID - was show how Modern Liberalism ideals are at odds with scripture... if you don't like that - then take it up with God.. not me...

Jeesh..

Are you saying Liberals who do not believe in Christ are heaven bound?

I'm sorry, perhaps you can explain yourself then. When you claim someone cannot be Christian if they are liberal that sounds to me like you are judging them. Explain to me where I am wrong please.

I take issue with your method. Maybe you did this out of Love, but talk about tough Love!

Jeesh!

Immie

[-Cp]

Are you saying Liberals who do not believe in Christ are heaven bound?

I'm sorry, perhaps you can explain yourself then. When you claim someone cannot be Christian if they are liberal that sounds to me like you are judging them. Explain to me where I am wrong please.

I take issue with your method. Maybe you did this out of Love, but talk about tough Love!

Jeesh!

Immie

And maybe you should READ the original post.... It has and always was the assertion of the OP that you cannot be a Christian and be a modern-liberal because of those views - that's not ME saying that... it's the WORD OF GOD (Bible) saying that... don't shoot the messenger...

[Dilloduck]

"poof"-----disappearing posts ! :laugh2:

[Dilloduck]

And maybe you should READ the original post.... It has and always was the assertion of the OP that you cannot be a Christian and be a modern-liberal because of those views - that's not ME saying that... it's the WORD OF GOD (Bible) saying that... don't shoot the messenger...


Where does it say that you cannot be a Christian and a sinner at the same time?


and being at odds with the Scripture makes one a fake Christian according to your standards ?

well?

[darin]

Where does it say that you cannot be a Christian and a sinner at the same time?


Because when one accepts Christ as the substitutional atonement for their sin, their sinful nature is removed, and they are filled with the Spirit of God. They now have a Godly Nature - they strive and seek HIS things. Of course we fail - but the occasional failure is not a reflection of God's renewing of our mind - but the very real fact we have a renewed, forgiven spirit contained in a failing, sinful "body".

[Dilloduck]

Because when one accepts Christ as the substitutional atonement for their sin, their sinful nature is removed, and they are filled with the Spirit of God. They now have a Godly Nature - they strive and seek HIS things. Of course we fail - but the occasional failure is not a reflection of God's renewing of our mind - but the very real fact we have a renewed, forgiven spirit contained in a failing, sinful "body".

Where does it say that in the bible?

[Abbey Marie]

Where does it say that in the bible?

For starters, from Paul:

Here:

Romans 6:6
New English Translation (NET Bible)
“We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin"

And here:

Ephesians 4:22-24
New English Translation (NET Bible)
4:22 “You were taught with reference to your former life to lay aside the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 4:24 and to put on the new man who has been created in God’s image—in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.”

[MtnBiker]

If a true Christian cannot be a modern liberal, can a non Christian be a conservative?

[gabosaurus]

Because when one accepts Christ as the substitutional atonement for their sin, their sinful nature is removed, and they are filled with the Spirit of God. They now have a Godly Nature - they strive and seek HIS things. Of course we fail - but the occasional failure is not a reflection of God's renewing of our mind - but the very real fact we have a renewed, forgiven spirit contained in a failing, sinful "body".

That is an excellent and quite true point. So why is it that "liberals" can't feel the same way as "conservatives" about it?
I came to a point in life where God asked me to throw off my sinful ways and accept Him as my Lord and Saviour. God instructed me to follow Him, and in return I would be absolved of my sins and accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven.
I don't recall God requesting that I adopt conservative values or vote Republican.

[Dilloduck]

If a true Christian cannot be a modern liberal, can a non Christian be a conservative?

I'm still trying to determine who a "True" Chistian is.

[Abbey Marie]

I'm still trying to determine who a "True" Chistian is.

Read the words of Christ and of Paul in the New Testament. It's a great starting and ending point to the question. :)

[red states rule]

Read the words of Christ and of Paul in the New Testament. It's a great starting and ending point to the question. :)

Could not have said it better :clap:

[Dilloduck]

For starters, from Paul:

Here:

Romans 6:6
New English Translation (NET Bible)
“We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin"

And here:

Ephesians 4:22-24
New English Translation (NET Bible)
4:22 “You were taught with reference to your former life to lay aside the old man who is being corrupted in accordance with deceitful desires, 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 4:24 and to put on the new man who has been created in God’s image—in righteousness and holiness that comes from truth.”

I don't see that explaining this;


Of course we fail - but the occasional failure is not a reflection of God's renewing of our mind - but the very real fact we have a renewed, forgiven spirit contained in a failing, sinful "body".

[darin]

I don't see that explaining this;


41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

That's ONE example of how our renewed-in-christ spirit can be hampered by our physical, fallen, sinful mindset (our body..).

[-Cp]

Where does it say that you cannot be a Christian and a sinner at the same time?



well?

Again - please read 1st John Chapter 3 passages in the original post..

[JackDaniels]

This post is further evidence of why Christians in this country are perhaps the most evil, bigoted people in society.

Evil is almost too light a word to use for modern Christians.

[red states rule]

This post is further evidence of why Christians in this country are perhaps the most evil, bigoted people in society.

Evil is almost too light a word to use for modern Christians.

to some kooks we rank down their with smokers don't we?

[JackDaniels]

to some kooks we rank down their with smokers don't we?

Oh no, smokers are much higher than Christians :laugh2:

[red states rule]

Oh no, smokers are much higher than Christians :laugh2:

Libs blame us for putting Pres Bush in office. To them that is an unforgivable sin

[JackDaniels]

Libs blame us for putting Pres Bush in office. To them that is an unforgivable sin

How does this relate to me? YOU are a liberal compared to me.

[darin]

Jack - what the hell? I mean - do you intend to ADD to this conversation, or are you using it as a way to snipe flames against Christians. Please - if you simply want to berate Christianity and CHristians - Start a "Christians are Evil" thread...have at it.

[JackDaniels]

Jack - what the hell? I mean - do you intend to ADD to this conversation, or are you using it as a way to snipe flames against Christians. Please - if you simply want to berate Christianity and CHristians - Start a "Christians are Evil" thread...have at it.

:dance:

[Dilloduck]

That's ONE example of how our renewed-in-christ spirit can be hampered by our physical, fallen, sinful mindset (our body..).

In other words True Christians still sin but it's because of the old body?

[darin]

In other words True Christians still sin but it's because of the old body?

We sin. We don't have a sinful mindset. We fail, seek redemption, and stop sinning. Until we fail the next time. We don't continue, without repenting, in our sin and expect God to just 'allow it' because we decide we're born this way, for example. ;)

[Dilloduck]

We sin. We don't have a sinful mindset. We fail, seek redemption, and stop sinning. Until we fail the next time. We don't continue, without repenting, in our sin and expect God to just 'allow it' because we decide we're born this way, for example. ;)

True Chistians do not have a sinful mindset ? Is that what your trying to say here?

[darin]

True Chistians do not have a sinful mindset ? Is that what your trying to say here?

To the Christian, there's no desire for sin. Christians seek God and Godliness.

[Dilloduck]

To the Christian, there's no desire for sin. Christians seek God and Godliness.

Is that by choice or because God has taken away the desire to sin. Bad mindset gone--good mindset present ?

[darin]

Is that by choice or because God has taken away the desire to sin. Bad mindset gone--good mindset present ?

When somebody accepts Christ -makes the conscious decision to follow Him, Our spirits are made new. We are 'reborn' spiritually. The old desire for things of a sinful nature are buried.

[Abbey Marie]

Is that by choice or because God has taken away the desire to sin. Bad mindset gone--good mindset present ?

Hey Dillo, give it a try and you may see for yourself. :)

[diuretic]

Just reflecting on this again. The attempt to bash people of a particular political persuasion with a hammer labelled "religion" is not just distasteful, it's illogical.

Politics and religion are two different things. They have different aims and have different processes. There's no contradiction between someone holding political views and also practising a religion. Someone can be a Christian, a Buddhist, Jain etc and hold political views. The attempt to suggest that someone can't hold certain political views and still profess their Christianity relies on a severely narrow idea of what Christianity is. It's the mindset of the fundamentalist. It's the same mindset as any fundamentalist approach to religion.

[Dilloduck]

When somebody accepts Christ -makes the conscious decision to follow Him, Our spirits are made new. We are 'reborn' spiritually. The old desire for things of a sinful nature are buried.

Buried ? Temptations to sin again are buried ? Then why all the sinning by those "born again" ?

[Dilloduck]

Hey Dillo, give it a try and you may see for yourself. :)

How would you know that I haven't ?

[Abbey Marie]

How would you know that I haven't ?


Either you haven't, or you're enjoying playing devil's advocate. Whatever floats your boat.

[Dilloduck]

Either you haven't, or you're enjoying playing devil's advocate. Whatever floats your boat.

I think a lot of people reject religion because people can't explain it. I'm not playing devils advocate. I want to hear a description of a "true" Christian. If I can ever get one, that might explain a few things. Surely Christianity can explained. I also don't believe that being born again makes one immune to temptation nor sinning in a manner.

[manu1959]

I think a lot of people reject religion because people can't explain it. I'm not playing devils advocate. I want to hear a description of a "true" Christian. If I can ever get one, that might explain a few things. Surely Christianity can explained. I also don't believe that being born again makes one immune to temptation nor sinning in a manner.

there is only one true christian.....

[diuretic]

I think a lot of people reject religion because people can't explain it. I'm not playing devils advocate. I want to hear a description of a "true" Christian. If I can ever get one, that might explain a few things. Surely Christianity can explained. I also don't believe that being born again makes one immune to temptation nor sinning in a manner.

John Milton in Areopagitica said:

Good and evil we know in the field of this world grow up together almost inseparably; and the knowledge of good is so involved and interwoven with the knowledge of evil, and in so many cunning resemblances hardly to be discerned, that those confused seeds which were imposed upon Psyche as an incessant labour to cull out, and sort asunder, were not more intermixed. It was from out the rind of one apple tasted, that the knowledge of good and evil, as two twins cleaving together, leaped forth into the world. And perhaps this is that doom which Adam fell into of knowing good and evil, that is to say of knowing good by evil. As therefore the state of man now is; what wisdom can there be to choose, what continence to forbear without the knowledge of evil? He that can apprehend and consider vice with all her baits and seeming pleasures, and yet abstain, and yet distinguish, and yet prefer that which is truly better, he is the true wayfaring Christian.

(emphasis added)

So perhaps to him a true Christian was someone who knows good and evil and despite the temptations of evil chooses good. But he also goes on to say:

I cannot praise a fugitive and cloistered virtue, unexercised and unbreathed, that never sallies out and sees her adversary but slinks out of the race, where that immortal garland is to be run for, not without dust and heat. Assuredly we bring not innocence into the world, we bring impurity much rather; that which purifies us is trial, and trial is by what is contrary

In saying that perhaps he was also emphasing that Christianity is constant practice and not merely mouthing words of scripture and shying away from temptation. It's about being in the world and staring temptation in the face and denying it and not succumbing and then scrambling to cover it up or tearfully begging for forgiveness on television (Swaggart).

[Dilloduck]

there is only one true christian.....

pretty much my thoughts on it----the rest of us just put different amounts of effort into it.