To Christians (that means libs need to not post please )

[-Cp]

Most Christians have been tought to believe there is a "heaven" awaiting them after they die. I'd like to see scripture to back that up. Doesn't it make more sense that the "heaven or paradise" Christ talks about is the ultimate restoration of an "eden-type" utopia? Wasn't it God's intention all along to have Adam live forver here on a perfect Earth? - if so, when did that plan change?

[gabosaurus]

I am more of a Christian than you will ever be. Because I love my neighbor. Obviously you don't.
Christianity is more than just talk. It is actions. You can quote scripture all your want. But until you can chunk your hate and animosity, you are not a true Christian.

[Cheyenne]

Most Christians have been tought to believe there is a "heaven" awaiting them after they die. I'd like to see scripture to back that up. Doesn't it make more sense that the "heaven or paradise" Christ talks about is the ultimate restoration of an "eden-type" utopia? Wasn't it God's intention all along to have Adam live forver here on a perfect Earth? - if so, when did that plan change?For starters
Revelation 21:1-4 Speaks of heaven
Revelation 21:5 Speaks of the restoration of Eden. Then it goes back to speaking about heaven.

I'll need to go get my Bible...............

[darin]

I am more of a Christian than you will ever be. Because I love my neighbor. Obviously you don't.
Christianity is more than just talk. It is actions. You can quote scripture all your want. But until you can chunk your hate and animosity, you are not a true Christian.

Dude - please just shush. You have no business replying in this thread.

[Immanuel]

Well, I was going to post a few verses from the Bible that spoke about Heaven. I went to Biblegateway.com and searched on "heaven". There are 25 pages of references so, rather that search through all of that, I am going to be lazy and give you the URL: www.biblegateway.com

From there do a search heaven and there will be my answers. :)

Immie

PS I know you could figure that our by yourself, but I really was going to post a few references and then realized I didn't have time so I will let you do it yourself for me.

[Abbey Marie]

During His crucifixion, Jesus said to the thief who professed his faith,

"Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"

[Immanuel]

During His crucifixion, Jesus said to the thief who professed his faith,

"Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"


But, couldn't paradise be either Heaven or Eden here on Earth?

Immie

[Abbey Marie]

But, couldn't paradise be either Heaven or Eden here on Earth?

Immie

It couldn't be "Eden on Earth", if he was going to join Him that very day, as Jesus clearly stated.

[Hagbard Celine]

Ooh, now Christianity is an exclusive club that you're not allowed in if you vote Democrat. You guys are sad.

[Immanuel]

It couldn't be "Eden on Earth", if he was going to join Him that very day, as Jesus clearly stated.

Sure it could.

If I am not mistaken, God stated that he put an angel with a flaming sword between man and Eden. He did not state that Eden had been removed from the Earth. Now, I know this is stretching it but is it not possible that Eden still exists in some fashion on Earth today but in our sin we are just too blind to see it?

Please note: I am not espousing this as a theory by any stretch of the imagination. I believe he spoke of Paradise being Heaven. But there is no guarantee that my understanding is completely accurate. God's word is, but my understanding is limited.

Immie

[Immanuel]

Ooh, now Christianity is an exclusive club that you're not allowed in if you vote Democrat. You guys are sad.

I for one do not subscribe to that belief.

Immie

[Abbey Marie]

Sure it could.

If I am not mistaken, God stated that he put an angel with a flaming sword between man and Eden. He did not state that Eden had been removed from the Earth. Now, I know this is stretching it but is it not possible that Eden still exists in some fashion on Earth today but in our sin we are just too blind to see it?

Please note: I am not espousing this as a theory by any stretch of the imagination. I believe he spoke of Paradise being Heaven. But there is no guarantee that my understanding is completely accurate. God's word is, but my understanding is limited.

Immie

I suppose that if one wants to, one can come up with a sorts of torturous ways of interpreting words. Certainly it is done today with the Constitution. :) It is wholly rational and reasonable to take the words "this day" and "Paradise" together to equal something not of this world.

[darin]

Ooh, now Christianity is an exclusive club that you're not allowed in if you vote Democrat. You guys are sad.

He wrote "liberal", numnuts... ;)

[JackDaniels]

Dude - please just shush. You have no business replying in this thread.

If he is a Christian, why shouldn't he be able to post?

[JackDaniels]

He wrote "liberal", numnuts... ;)

However, some liberals are Christians -- therefore, it's pretty dumb to not ask certain Christians not to answer this question regarding Christianity.

[Immanuel]

I suppose that if one wants to, one can come up with a sorts of torturous ways of interpreting words. Certainly it is done today with the Constitution. :) It is wholly rational and reasonable to take the words "this day" and "Paradise" together to equal something not of this world.

True, and as I said, I fully believe Jesus meant Heaven when he spoke to the thief. Then again, where exactly is Heaven? Is it even in the same dimension we are in?

I for one do not believe I have a grasp on even a small portion of what God has given us in his word. I can believe that he has written things that I don't clearly understand and that man's interpretation of such things have gone askew over time. As an example, God gave us the Sabbath Laws with Moses on Mount Sinai. By the time Jesus had come along they had twisted the words so badly that they believed it meant you could not even heal on the Sabbath Day.

What did Jesus mean when he said, "today you shall be with me in Paradise"? I won't know for sure until I sit at his feet and he explains all things.

Immie

[Abbey Marie]

True, and as I said, I fully believe Jesus meant Heaven when he spoke to the thief. Then again, where exactly is Heaven? Is it even in the same dimension we are in?

I for one do not believe I have a grasp on even a small portion of what God has given us in his word. I can believe that he has written things that I don't clearly understand and that man's interpretation of such things have gone askew over time. As an example, God gave us the Sabbath Laws with Moses on Mount Sinai. By the time Jesus had come along they had twisted the words so badly that they believed it meant you could not even heal on the Sabbath Day.

What did Jesus mean when he said, "today you shall be with me in Paradise"? I won't know for sure until I sit at his feet and he explains all things.

Immie

I can't argue with that. To paraphrase a great Christian writer, for now we only see as through a glass, darkly. :)

[GW in Ohio]

So if you're a liberal, you can't be a Christian?

You guys are really something.

[PostmodernProphet]

Most Christians have been tought to believe there is a "heaven" awaiting them after they die. I'd like to see scripture to back that up. Doesn't it make more sense that the "heaven or paradise" Christ talks about is the ultimate restoration of an "eden-type" utopia? Wasn't it God's intention all along to have Adam live forver here on a perfect Earth? - if so, when did that plan change?

Seems to me it's covered....
Revelations 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

[darin]

So if you're a liberal, you can't be a Christian?

You guys are really something.

Modern liberalism is at serious odds with Christianity. Said another way, one cannot support politically, those things which contradict one's faith. One can't serve two masters, if you will.

[Guernicaa]

Modern liberalism is at serious odds with Christianity. Said another way, one cannot support politically, those things which contradict one's faith. One can't serve two masters, if you will.
No, its at odds with the Christian reforms of the Middle Ages.

Did you know that up until the 12th century Roman Catholic priests had sex with each other?


1102 - The Council of London took measures to ensure that the public, quite tolerant of homosexuality at the time, knew that it was sinful, marking a significant shift in church attitudes towards homosexuality, which previously had been more or less indifference, or very mild condemnation. Many priests were homosexuals, likely one of the causes of the change in attitude, as moral reformers such as Bernard of Cluny called for change.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_history

I would read that page up until the late middle ages.



The only good Christian is a liberal one.

[JohnDoe]

Modern liberalism is at serious odds with Christianity. Said another way, one cannot support politically, those things which contradict one's faith. One can't serve two masters, if you will.


Right... only this modern republicanism is most certainly at serious odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Said another way, one cannot support politically, those things which contradict ones faith. One can't serve two masters, the republican party and God at the same time. You might be splitting yourself too thin there and not giving unto Caesar, what is his....imo.

Christ kept the government and their responsibility at arms length from religion and his teachings....you don't seem to be following Christ, imo but some sort of distorted view of Christ that is uncomprehendable to me.



I don't believe what you and your brother print about your version or sect or cult or whatever it can be called, of Christianity....and I would venture to say, most Christians do not believe what was just expressed either unless extreme fundamentalists and even then I see it hard to believe fundamentalists, would miss the fundamental messages of Jesus Christ so blatently?

...but who knows?:dunno: this site has never ceased to surprise me...either way, it is just an opinion from 2 people out of many people....it's nothing more than that and not present in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, that's for certain! imho!!!

But I would be opened to any honest discussion on this!!!

jd

[retiredman]

"honest discussion" and "dmp" do not belong in the same universe.

he throws flames... and lots of neg reps. I'll bet this post earns me yet another!:dance:

[Sir Evil]

"honest discussion" and "dmp" do not belong in the same universe.

he throws flames... and lots of neg reps. I'll bet this post earns me yet another!:dance:

Simply posted to take a shot at administrator. Just more that shows this bottom dweller should be booted out the door.

[JackDaniels]

Simply posted to take a shot at administrator. Just more that shows this bottom dweller should be booted out the door.

You could not be more wrong....

[darin]

Simply posted to take a shot at administrator. Just more that shows this bottom dweller should be booted out the door.

He's been removed from the discussion - back to the topic at hand.

[Sir Evil]

You could not be more wrong....

Thanks for the advice! ;)

[Sir Evil]

He's been removed from the discussion - back to the topic at hand.

:clap::clap:

I have no further business in this thread. :scared:

[JackDaniels]

He's been removed from the discussion - back to the topic at hand.

You have failed to even attempt to defend your unlettered statement that liberals aren't really Christians.

[JohnDoe]

It couldn't be "Eden on Earth", if he was going to join Him that very day, as Jesus clearly stated. abbey,

I think it is unknowable, what it all means...or mirky at best.

the Apostles creed speaks of Christ descending in to hell or to the realm of the dead, meeting with those who died before Him, then after 3 days He rose from the dead... and then ascended in to heaven?

so where is this Paradise? was it just Jesus's body that descended for 3 days and His spirit went to paradise to be with the thief that day? And not what most Christian Churches have taught for millenia?

the whole thing is confusing, yet interesting too! :) there are other sites where this is referenced if you do not accept this Vatican link.... i googled ''descended in to hell''.

jd

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

[-Cp]

I think most Christians are well aware of the word "heaven" and its use in the Bible, however, is the Bible talking about an actual place, a state of being or what?

Christ also said "The kingdom of heaven is with you" - does this mean heaven is inside all of us? Of course not - at least not in a literal sense, right?

[JohnDoe]

Simply posted to take a shot at administrator. Just more that shows this bottom dweller should be booted out the door.
sir evil,
could u please explain to me how you saw mfm's post as ''simply posted'' to take a ''shot'' at a moderator? when , his moderation of this board was not even mention in mfm's post?

YES, he a took a ''shot'' at him, but not at ALL about him using his moderator status?

WHAT in heaven's name, am I missing Sir Evil?

mfm's post could have been writen to anyone that he doesn't think is honest or anyone that has negative repped him??? I really wish i understood the rules around here, but they get jumbled and confusing??? at least to me...

you know the other site we both have posted on had no real rules and no moderators so i am really just becoming accustomed to it...

please pm me, to explain, and tell me what i am missing here? i hate not knowing what the real ''dos and don'ts are'', it makes it difficult to try to be obiedient to the rules!!!!

jd

[avatar4321]

Most Christians have been tought to believe there is a "heaven" awaiting them after they die. I'd like to see scripture to back that up. Doesn't it make more sense that the "heaven or paradise" Christ talks about is the ultimate restoration of an "eden-type" utopia? Wasn't it God's intention all along to have Adam live forver here on a perfect Earth? - if so, when did that plan change?

I actually believe heaven will be on earth. After all the meek will inherit the earth.

Obviously though i think there is more than just the earth. I think (my personal belief) that heaven has locations throughout the universe and travel will be for the most part open to anyone.

[avatar4321]

I am more of a Christian than you will ever be. Because I love my neighbor. Obviously you don't.
Christianity is more than just talk. It is actions. You can quote scripture all your want. But until you can chunk your hate and animosity, you are not a true Christian.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Thanks... I needed that:)

[avatar4321]

During His crucifixion, Jesus said to the thief who professed his faith,

"Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"

Contrary to what many assume. The paradise Christ was speaking about here is not heaven. We know this because after His resurrection, Christ tells Mary that He still has not ascended to His Father in Heaven.

Paradise is more of a limbo state for the righteous to away for the resurrection and the final judgment. The wicked are separated elsewhere as the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man describe.

[Sir Evil]

sir evil,
could u please explain to me how you saw mfm's post as ''simply posted'' to take a ''shot'' at a moderator? when , his moderation of this board was not even mention in mfm's post?

YES, he a took a ''shot'' at him, but not at ALL about him using his moderator status?

WHAT in heaven's name, am I missing Sir Evil?

mfm's post could have been writen to anyone that he doesn't think is honest or anyone that has negative repped him??? I really wish i understood the rules around here, but they get jumbled and confusing??? at least to me...

you know the other site we both have posted on had no real rules and no moderators so i am really just becoming accustomed to it...

please pm me, to explain, and tell me what i am missing here? i hate not knowing what the real ''dos and don'ts are'', it makes it difficult to try to be obiedient to the rules!!!!

jd

1. I don't like that worm so it was my pleasure to bring to attention for any of the staff to notice.

2. I'm a hypocrite for doing so because I do the same thing to homo every chance I get.

3. He is deserving of the attention, not of the use of any forum the way he conducts himself.

4. He simply entered the thread to say something to dmp when he is very much the dishonest one. Yes, he is a hypocrite too but I'm a better one.

5. Simply posting to flame a administrator should not have to be dealt with on any forum.

6. The questioning of decision making is not for me to answer, and as the rules state it should be directed to the staff.

7. Lastly I only answered honestly because this is a religion thread otherwise I would of stated a bunch of lies. :D

[JohnDoe]

John 14:2 "In my Father's house there are many rooms."

again, just something to add to the confusion. :)

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

1. But the way, *The Great CWN* sees it.
2. Heaven is a real place, more or less another planet.
3. Maybe in this solar system, maybe not.
4. Perhaps in another dimension, hovering over our planet, like we've imagined before.
5. Perhaps there are levels of heaven, where one ceiling of atmosphere is the floor on the next heaven, with each level of heaven in a different dimension.
6. Perhaps when the *End* comes, and times run out, perhaps the seventh heaven, which perhaps is the top utmost heaven, is brought to Earth, and is set up in this dimension.
7. Removing this dimension and replacing it with that one.
8. And all the mountains perhaps would be brought low, and the oceans done away with.

Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

[darin]

Back on topic folk - send 'other' comments to Me via PM. :)

Heaven. Hot name for a chick, usually. :)

[Sir Evil]

John 14:2 "In my Father's house there are many rooms."

again, just something to add to the confusion. :)

Was that directed to me or the thread?

[JohnDoe]

7. Lastly I only answered honestly because this is a religion thread otherwise I would of stated a bunch of lies. :D


Hahahahahaha!

Bravo!!! You are a good man!!!

:clap::clap:

LMAO....that was a good chuckle Sir Evil!

jd

[BoogyMan]

Most Christians have been tought to believe there is a "heaven" awaiting them after they die. I'd like to see scripture to back that up. Doesn't it make more sense that the "heaven or paradise" Christ talks about is the ultimate restoration of an "eden-type" utopia? Wasn't it God's intention all along to have Adam live forver here on a perfect Earth? - if so, when did that plan change?

Greetings,

I would reference you to several points from the scripture to answer this query.

Heavenly places: Ephesians 1:3, 1:20-23, 2:6, 3:10, and 6:10-12

Heaven not part of physical universe: John 18:36, Hebrews 9:11, 9:24, I Corinthians 15:50-51, I Corinthians 44

Nature of Heaven: John 13:36, John 14:16

Descriptions of Heaven:
Matthew 5:11 - A great reward.
Romans 8:18 - Present suffering not worthy to be compared with future glory.
2 Corinthians 4:17,18 - Eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison.
Ephesians 2:7 - Surpassing riches of His grace towards us.
Ephesians 3:20 - Beyond all we could ask for or even think of.


When did things change? We don't know that they did as we would be speaking assumptively if we were to claim that Adam was never intended to die.

Consider Genesis 3:17-19

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

[JohnDoe]

Was that directed to me or the thread?

no, no , no....not directed at you Sir Evil! I was just mentioning that about God's house having many rooms, which could add to the confusion regarding where Paradise is, where heaven is...which room? :) and where are these rooms?

;)

jd

[-Cp]

When did things change? We don't know that they did as we would be speaking assumptively if we were to claim that Adam was never intended to die.

Consider Genesis 3:17-19

Wouldn't be assumptive at all since it wasn't until after Adam fell that Death and sickness was introduced into the world...

Thanks Boogy for the first well thought-out answer that actually used scripture in this thread so far..

[Monkeybone]

i want to say that there is a book, 'Heaven is a Place on Earth', i don't have it with me here at work, so plz forgive me if i totally mess this up and have to come back and re-edit.

the gist of the book was, yah that there was a heaven, but it is not the goal. the goal is the whole furthering your relationship with Christ and the such. but also that well heaven is nifty, the thing that really is coming is that heaven will be brought to the new earth. hence the title. and that they will be all one and the same when there is the perfect Earth. i will find the cook when i get home and find out.

and too the no liberals thing...i think that it could have been put better, but i can understand what was meant and it was sorta shown. i think what was wanted was an actual discussion not a "you're not a real Christian" blah blah sorta thing. just my two cents

[manu1959]

and too the no liberals thing...i think that it could have been put better, but i can understand what was meant and it was sorta shown. i think what was wanted was an actual discussion not a "you're not a real Christian" blah blah sorta thing. just my two cents

a true "liberal" aka communist would not belive in a god of any kind .....

[-Cp]

and too the no liberals thing... i think what was wanted was an actual discussion not a "you're not a real Christian" blah blah sorta thing. just my two cents


Right.. but Liberals can't read and stay on topic too well... instead, they want to inject their stupidity into threads where their posts don't belong..

[GW in Ohio]

Modern liberalism is at serious odds with Christianity. Said another way, one cannot support politically, those things which contradict one's faith. One can't serve two masters, if you will.

Excuse me, but that's complete bullshit.

Modern liberalism may be at odds with the politics of conservative Christians, but modern liberalism is completely in line with the teachings of Christ, especially Christ's exhortations to help the poor and the less fortunate among us.

[GW in Ohio]

a true "liberal" aka communist would not belive in a god of any kind .....

If you actually believe that liberals are communists, then you don't know jack shit about politics and you are one of the stupidest individuals that ever inhabited cyberspace.

And as such, you are a vital part of George Bush's constituency.

Do you also listen to El Rushbo?

[darin]

Excuse me, but that's complete bullshit.

Modern liberalism may be at odds with the politics of conservative Christians, but modern liberalism is completely in line with the teachings of Christ, especially Christ's exhortations to help the poor and the less fortunate among us.

Liberals don't help the poor and less-fortunate. They HURT the poor and less fortunate by perpetuating their fortunes (or lack thereof) and their poverty. That one aspect alone is an example of how Liberalism is at odds with Christianity.

[JackDaniels]

Liberals don't help the poor and less-fortunate. They HURT the poor and less fortunate by perpetuating their fortunes (or lack thereof) and their poverty. That one aspect alone is an example of how Liberalism is at odds with Christianity.

Oh please. Jesus was a fucking Communist.

[darin]

Oh please. Jesus was a fucking Communist.

Please go away.

[JackDaniels]

Please go away.

The one sign of an uneducated person is the inability to listen to and to take into consideration other viewpoints.

How about this -- I'll make you a deal -- you go out and read Christopher Hitchen's God is Not Great, and you can choose a Christian book for me to read and we'll discuss....

[darin]

The one sign of an uneducated person is the inability to listen to and to take into consideration other viewpoints.

How about this -- I'll make you a deal -- you go out and read Christopher Hitchen's God is Not Great, and you can choose a Christian book for me to read and we'll discuss....

You don't HAVE a viewpoint. Your comment was just a poke or a jab at Christianity. It's silly and you know it.

[JackDaniels]

You don't HAVE a viewpoint. Your comment was just a poke or a jab at Christianity. It's silly and you know it.

I rest my case. Don't you have some construction work to go do?

[darin]

I rest my case. Don't you have some construction work to go do?

See? You're being stupid. You fly in and make an insult-post then claim you 'won' because I won't be your monkey. Get a life.

[GW in Ohio]

I rest my case. Don't you have some construction work to go do?

Jack Daniels: I find your graphic of Jesus and the devil French kissing offensive, and I'm not even a bloody Christian.

Let's have more substance and less shock value.

[Monkeybone]

Oh please. Jesus was a fucking Communist.

how so?

[JohnDoe]

how so?he took the 5 loaves of bread from those that had it and fed the 5000 with it? maybe that is what he meant? :dance:

[JohnDoe]

Liberals don't help the poor and less-fortunate. They HURT the poor and less fortunate by perpetuating their fortunes (or lack thereof) and their poverty. That one aspect alone is an example of how Liberalism is at odds with Christianity.But how do you know this other than someone from your side TELLING you this? How do you KNOW since FDR and his social programs that more of the needy haven't been helped than would have been hurt? The GI Bill was welfare added and I believe it has worked out well and helped grow the middle class from the ranks of the poor.... Social Security saved millions of lives over the years I would venture to guess? Same with Medicare.

So, it seems just a tad shallow to make a blanket statement like that without expressing and showing in reality, what you mean dmp?

Also, what is YOUR SOLUTION...the con's solution, I haven't seen anything of substance to reform or deal with these matter from republicans... only one liners or two, statements criticizing the situationa and trying to put ALL the blame on to liberals when cons themselves added the department of Education, the medicare pill bill and varous things that have grown our government beyond comprehension and beyond anything in the recent past with the growth and BIGNESS of our government, all by their lonesome!?

jd

[JackDaniels]

how so?

From: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/293537/jesus_the_last_communist.html

"Since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the Soviet Union nearly two decades ago, it has been widely assumed that communism is dead. With North Korea in shambles, the Castro era ending in Cuba, and the move to a free market in China, this does appear true. In fact, most attempts at instituting the ideals of communism have failed, mainly because they were instituted by megalomaniacal despots.

However, there is one model of pure communism that has over a billion followers, although most don't practice it the way their founder taught them to. That model is Christianity. Forget Marx and Lenin and Mao; if you want an example of a true Communist leader, Jesus is your man.

Sure, it sounds crazy, and maybe even a little blasphemous to some, but before you judge, consider Webster's definition of communism: "a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed." Now let's look at the guide all Christians use as the basis of their belief, and that some consider infallible: the Bible.

The second and fourth chapters of the Book of Acts give a clear example, too seldom followed in Christian churches today, of what most would consider communism:

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts." (Acts 2:44-46 NIV)

"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need." (Acts 4:32-35 NIV)

The Gospels are filled with teachings by Jesus or his followers that encourage, and even demand, a social and economic equality foreign to us today:

"But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." (Luke 14:13 NIV)

"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me'." (Matt. 19:21 NIV)

"John answered, 'The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same'." (Luke 3:11 NIV)

"Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?" (James 2:15-16 NIV)

This was the model Jesus instituted, and it is one that, minus the religious aspect, Karl Marx would have endorsed wholeheartedly. It was a model of equality that two thousand years ago brought together merchants and beggars, rabbis and prostitutes, soldiers and slaves and eventually converted an empire.

But the movement Jesus founded has lost its way. Many Christians today are the single largest commercial consumers on the planet, with mega-churches, their own bookstores and recording labels, and a political agenda that attacks the very people Jesus called on us to defend. Entire denominations are obsessed with a "prosperity gospel" that equates faith with financial gain.

Some years ago, the Brazilian Archbishop and liberation theologian Dom Helder Camara lamented the situation with these words: "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

Jesus asked the same question and faced the same dilemma, and the elites of his society responded by killing him. I wonder if we would react differently today."

[theHawk]

I think its a little harsh to say liberals can't be Christians. To be a Christian first and foremost means that you believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah and died for our sins. Now, there's no question that many of the beleifs of modern day liberals contradicts what Jesus taught and what the rest of the bible teaches. I don't think socialist policies contradict Christianity but if a liberal believes Jesus would promote abortion and gay marriage then they probably have a few wires crossed in the head. The problem with many people who claim to be Christians is that they quite often break the second Commandment, they formulate what they think God is or would say. In other words they create their own god to suit their needs.

[darin]

But how do you know this other than someone from your side TELLING you this? How do you KNOW since FDR and his social programs that more of the needy haven't been helped than would have been hurt? The GI Bill was welfare added and I believe it has worked out well and helped grow the middle class from the ranks of the poor.... Social Security saved millions of lives over the years I would venture to guess? Same with Medicare.


How do I know Liberals and their stealing from the rich, to give to the poor, HURTS folk? To me it's common sense. To you? No idea.

What about The GI Bill means it was started or drafted by a Liberal? How's that relevant? That's exactly the OPPOSITE of Liberalism. The GI Bill is EARNED. Folk better themselves, and serve their nation. In return, their nation funds their college education.

Most welfare is folk being gifted something w/o any accountability for the gift.

Social Security is a fraud. If you love folk, let them be masters of their money so they can be BETTER prepared to live in retirement.


So, it seems just a tad shallow to make a blanket statement like that without expressing and showing in reality, what you mean dmp?

I'm not sure what that means.



Also, what is YOUR SOLUTION...the con's solution, I haven't seen anything of substance to reform or deal with these matter from republicans... only one liners or two, statements criticizing the situations and trying to put ALL the blame on to liberals when cons themselves added the department of Education, the medicare pill bill and varous things that have grown our government beyond comprehension and beyond anything in the recent past with the growth and BIGNESS of our government, all by their lonesome!?

jd

Solution to what? Poverty? Have people get off their asses and get jobs. I really don't understand what the rest of that paragraph has to do with the price of a BJ* in Bangkok.


*That's Bartles and Jaymes - you pervs... :)


I think its a little harsh to say liberals can't be Christians. To be a Christian first and foremost means that you believe Jesus Christ was the Messiah and died for our sins.


That's not exactly true, brother. One must not just 'believe' it - one must ACT as though they believe it. Even Satan himself believes in Christ. Belief without actions which demonstrate that believe means the belief is worthless.

[Monkeybone]

i can understand where you are coming from and everything Jack. that guy made some good points. but at the same time you can rake verses like that out of the bible and make it say what you want.

those are more geard towrds taking care of the less fortunate and brothers and sisters. not making a little community where everyone shares ewverything. you are to have times together (the eating and everything). the if you want to be perfect, that is how you don't have anything of this earth, but you recieve treasures in heaven. you have to look at the whole thing and not one verse.

nice atricle again though.

[JohnDoe]

How do I know Liberals and their stealing from the rich, to give to the poor, HURTS folk? To me it's common sense. To you? No idea. That's not what I got out of what you said, the implication was that Liberals were hurting the poor by trying to help them.

What about The GI Bill means it was started or drafted by a Liberal? How's that relevant? That's exactly the OPPOSITE of Liberalism. The GI Bill is EARNED. Folk better themselves, and serve their nation. In return, their nation funds their college education.
you are picking and choosing haphazzardly what you want to deam a social program, the GI bill was most certainly a "social" program and an act of Socialism that was ADDED to bring up the ranks of the poor in to the middle class that was NOT there for people in the service beforehand.


Most welfare is folk being gifted something w/o any accountability for the gift.

with the welfare reform that took place in the late 90's, that is NOT the case so much anymore.

Social Security is a fraud. If you love folk, let them be masters of their money so they can be BETTER prepared to live in retirement.

sure, whatever! They did so well for themselves before social security in saving for themselves...and that's why social security wasNn't needed. NOT!!!!

So, it seems just a tad shallow to make a blanket statement like that without expressing and showing in reality, what you mean dmp?[/quote]

I'm not sure what that means.

It means that you implied that ALL IS WRONG with our social programs but offered up no solutions or reforms or corrections that could make the system better.

Solution to what? Poverty? Have people get off their asses and get jobs. I really don't understand what the rest of that paragraph has to do with the price of a BJ* in Bangkok.

Again, simplistic with no solution to our evident problems.... I would say education, equal for all, k-12, would be a beginging of the reforms needed

*That's Bartles and Jaymes - you pervs... :)




That's not exactly true, brother. One must not just 'believe' it - one must ACT as though they believe it. Even Satan himself believes in Christ. Belief without actions which demonstrate that believe means the belief is worthless.[/QUOTE]

oh yes, most certainly! And that's why you act and treat people the way you do right? You are perfect and without sin huh? Everyone can know by YOUR ACTIONS that you are a Christian, right? without even asking or hearing you professing to be, right?

you are wrong btw on this imo.

And what a Christian should do is teach their daughters and sons not to have an abortion if the girl gets pregnant. And if they follow that rule, it does not matter one iota on whether abortions are legal or not by the government imo. Jesus REFRAINED from involving the matters of the Church with the government. The Church and Parents need to teach what is right or wrong and followers of Christ should try their hardest to follow these rules, but this has nothing to do with trying to get the gvt to enforce them. imo.

Abortions reduced in percentage under Bill Clinton more than any other President.... that COUNTS for something imo.... and those social programs that you balk at, had something to do with the REDUCTION of abortion deaths.... the bottom line is what matters, not the words of people that say they are against it, but those who do something to change the conditions that are CAUSING IT....imo.... so I guess we differ on this...

jd

[darin]

It means that you implied that ALL IS WRONG with our social programs but offered up no solutions or reforms or corrections that could make the system better.

No - I said giving people money w/o requiring any accountability or performance HURTS impoverished folk. That's how Liberal ideals HURT folk...it's how Liberals show hatred for folk - by encouraging them to refrain from bettering themselves.

Now - what has me scratching my head is your insistence I lay out for you a systematic approach to cure the nation of poverty. WAY beyond the scope of this thread...and unreasonable.


Again, simplistic with no solution to our evident problems.... I would say education, equal for all, k-12, would be a beginging of the reforms needed

Uh - Friend? That IS he solution. Poor folk need to stop being lazy and get a job. If one job isn't working out, they should get TWO or THREE Jobs.



oh yes, most certainly! And that's why you act and treat people the way you do right? You are perfect and without sin huh? Everyone can know by YOUR ACTIONS that you are a Christian, right? without even asking or hearing you professing to be, right?


What the HELL are you talking about now? holy CRAP you are impossible to follow - you topic jump like a politician losing a debate. What the HELL does my statement about Liberalism HURTING the poor makes you think I believe i'm without sin, or better than anyone?

My Actions display my belief in Christ. I stand up for absolute Truth and take the Hard right over the easy wrong. Everyone with reason or common sense can take what they know from me, based on this board, and see I am a man of conviction and passion and love for people. So much so, I won't let folk like truthmatters, manfrommaine, or even YOU (from time to time) populate this board with lies and falsehoods and hatred. When I see people abusing the GOOD members of this board with those things, I take action. I make the call. When I make the WRONG call I apologize to the staff and the user and get on with my life. That's the difference - one difference - between you and me. When somebody, like MFM, speaks and communicates how he does, yet professes CHRIST I get ticked. When folk come on here and present blatant lies and misrepresentations as FACT I get a little itchy. I call them on their behaviour publicly and privately - not out of EGO, but out of CONCERN. Concern for what or whom? For MFM it's concern for his eternal soul. He's so blatantly anti-christ in his attitude her it's nauseating to see him claim Christianity. For TM - she's so blatantly dishonest in her debates, I'm concerned for her intellectual prowess. I want BOTH of them to be better. To learn and grow as people, from their time here. Unfortunately, those who NEED the more work are most resistant to correction.



you are wrong btw on this imo.

And what a Christian should do is teach their daughters and sons not to have an abortion if the girl gets pregnant. And if they follow that rule, it does not matter one iota on whether abortions are legal or not by the government imo. Jesus REFRAINED from involving the matters of the Church with the government. The Church and Parents need to teach what is right or wrong and followers of Christ should try their hardest to follow these rules, but this has nothing to do with trying to get the gvt to enforce them. imo.

Sure.


Abortions reduced in percentage under Bill Clinton more than any other President.... that COUNTS for something imo.... and those social programs that you balk at, had something to do with the REDUCTION of abortion deaths.... the bottom line is what matters, not the words of people that say they are against it, but those who do something to change the conditions that are CAUSING IT....imo.... so I guess we differ on this...

jd




Maybe having the Leader of the free world endorse oral sex helped the pregnancy rate? (shrug).

[gabosaurus]

Dude - please just shush. You have no business replying in this thread.

Your hatred, bigotry and immorality makes you less of a Christian than I am. So you have no right to talk.

[theHawk]

And what a Christian should do is teach their daughters and sons not to have an abortion if the girl gets pregnant. And if they follow that rule, it does not matter one iota on whether abortions are legal or not by the government imo. Jesus REFRAINED from involving the matters of the Church with the government. The Church and Parents need to teach what is right or wrong and followers of Christ should try their hardest to follow these rules, but this has nothing to do with trying to get the gvt to enforce them. imo.

Thats very true about abortion, parents need to teach their children responsiblity when it comes to this matter.
Jesus refraining from matters of government is all the more reason we should make government as small and less intrusive as possible. But the few laws that govern the people should be given to the government by the people, not a few people sitting on a court.




Abortions reduced in percentage under Bill Clinton more than any other President.... that COUNTS for something imo.... and those social programs that you balk at, had something to do with the REDUCTION of abortion deaths.... the bottom line is what matters, not the words of people that say they are against it, but those who do something to change the conditions that are CAUSING IT....imo.... so I guess we differ on this...

jd

[/B]

First of all, do you have any proof of this claim? Numbers on actual abortions have always been very scetchy because of the secrecy of the whole business. Secondly, I think its disingenuous to credit Clinton for any reduction in the number of abortions (even if it were true) since it was the conservative anti-abortion movement that got into full swing and made alot of the public aware about what was really going on in abortion clinics. Clinton did nothing to help curb abortion rates, the man wouldn't even sign a partial birth abortion ban, which is basically the murder of a newborn child.

[darin]

Your hatred, bigotry and immorality makes you less of a Christian than I am. So you have no right to talk.

I hate Sin. I'm not immoral. I'm not a bigot against any group. So...what's you're point? Ya know what's telling? NO christian would ever consider the possibility exists where somebody is "less" or "More" of a Christian. Either somebody IS or they are NOT. There is no gray area. The fact you'd use those words betray your lack of understanding. I can help, though. God can help. Look for Him, Gabby. :)

[bullypulpit]

Most Christians have been tought to believe there is a "heaven" awaiting them after they die. I'd like to see scripture to back that up. Doesn't it make more sense that the "heaven or paradise" Christ talks about is the ultimate restoration of an "eden-type" utopia? Wasn't it God's intention all along to have Adam live forver here on a perfect Earth? - if so, when did that plan change?

Your implication being that "liberals" can't be "Christians"? That's pretty low, even for you.

[manu1959]

Your hatred, bigotry and immorality makes you less of a Christian than I am. So you have no right to talk.

i would think if one were judging your statement makes you less of a christian than the ideal....good thing i am not a christian.......i can say and do whatever i want ...... see you in hell.....or not...

[JohnDoe]

Thats very true about abortion, parents need to teach their children responsiblity when it comes to this matter.
Jesus refraining from matters of government is all the more reason we should make government as small and less intrusive as possible. But the few laws that govern the people should be given to the government by the people, not a few people sitting on a court.

I agree. And not just with this issue but with many issues where the Bush administration has relied on the court to back them up in thisngs that have previously been considered wrong or against the constitution.

I would be perfectly fine if this went back to each state governing this.




First of all, do you have any proof of this claim? Numbers on actual abortions have always been very scetchy because of the secrecy of the whole business. Secondly, I think its disingenuous to credit Clinton for any reduction in the number of abortions (even if it were true) since it was the conservative anti-abortion movement that got into full swing and made alot of the public aware about what was really going on in abortion clinics. Clinton did nothing to help curb abortion rates, the man wouldn't even sign a partial birth abortion ban, which is basically the murder of a newborn child.

I believe I read statistics from the Alan Guttmacher Institute. Try that, I have dial up and it will take forever for me.... but I am pretty sure this is where I had found this info.

And yes, you are right that statistics on this are very hard to come by.

I said "under" Clinton and I can see how you took that as being president clinton, but I was refering to the years during his presidency.

Clinton, with the help of Congress, initiated programs that helped the poor. I believe the statistics are also at the above mentioned site, but because of these things that happened under Clinton and the prospering economy, women pregnant outside of marriage tended more to have their babies than previous years, where one of the number 1 reasons for having an abortion was not being able to support their child financially.

This became less of an issue during the Clinton era, ALONG WITH the awareness of abortion brought to the public and the promoting of using rubbers in sex education and also the promotion of abstinence that came out of the prolife movement.

but the Bottom line, from what I have read is that abortion reduced becasue of policy that took place, that made the poor have hope, and with that hope came women that felt secure enough to bear their children and less fear of the unknown.

the partial birth abortion ban, the way it was writen was unconstitutional I believe? It took until the 5th year of Bush in office before the partial birth abortion law was finally passed and cleared through the courts as constitutional

Clinton promoted that abortion should be legal but rare...paraphrased of course!:)

But, if he taught his daughter, not to abort her child to be and his daughter never did because of what he and hillary taught her, then THAT is good enough for me. It starts at Home, it really is not the gvts job to stop adultery either or to stop sex outside of marriage either...I personally prefer the parents teaching this, including sex education, to their own children and not relying on the gvt to be their kid's bad nanny.

jd

[Immanuel]

jd,

The Alan Guttmacher Institute is an organization that is run by the Abortion industries. If I am not mistaken it is an off-shoot of Planned Parenthood. Therefore, their statements on the number of abortions, causes, effects etc. need to be taken skeptically. You know I have used their information many times on other sites. I still use their information. But using their numbers is like asking MADD to discuss drunk driving statistics with a clear and open mind.

Alan Guttmacher can be trusted to make abortion out to be as pretty as they can, if that is even possible. Therefore, the numbers and findings of the Alan Guttmacher Institute must be treated with suspicion just as you would treat any reports about abortion from Operation Rescue.

Another thing about the numbers of abortions during Clinton's years. When Clinton was elected, the Pro-life movement stepped up their campaign and once again, abortion became a dirty word for a while. If we can't trust the abortion industry to give us accurate numbers on total abortions, we can't know for sure that abortions went down during that time frame, can we?

Maybe they did, but then maybe, rather than going down there were actually more or about equal to before, but just fewer reported?

Immie

[gabosaurus]

God found me several years ago. I lacked divine leadership and spiritual inspiration. I was a doubter and a sinner. God found a way to get me into a house of worship and then took control of my life.
Since then, I have avoided the temptations of bigotry and religious hatred. I realize that God speaks to different people in different ways. I love everyone for who they are. I recognize their struggles.
Judge not, lest you be judged. Seems as though a lot of you don't remember this line. Or else you are ignoring it.

[darin]

I hate Sin. I'm not immoral. I'm not a bigot against any group. So...what's you're point? Ya know what's telling? NO christian would ever consider the possibility exists where somebody is "less" or "More" of a Christian. Either somebody IS or they are NOT. There is no gray area. The fact you'd use those words betray your lack of understanding. I can help, though. God can help. Look for Him, Gabby. :)

Bump.

[JohnDoe]

jd,

The Alan Guttmacher Institute is an organization that is run by the Abortion industries. If I am not mistaken it is an off-shoot of Planned Parenthood. Therefore, their statements on the number of abortions, causes, effects etc. need to be taken skeptically. You know I have used their information many times on other sites. I still use their information. But using their numbers is like asking MADD to discuss drunk driving statistics with a clear and open mind.

Yes. I would not know about this institute and the firgures they have supplied IF IT WEREN'T for you, using this site and linking it! :)

And yes, my comment on numbers, should have said it is hard to come by good numbers regarding this subject, especially since a few states fail to account for them.

but SOMEONE'S numbers has to be used and since you have used this institute, as a conservative, then I thought they would just have to suffice for me.

Alan Guttmacher can be trusted to make abortion out to be as pretty as they can, if that is even possible. Therefore, the numbers and findings of the Alan Guttmacher Institute must be treated with suspicion just as you would treat any reports about abortion from Operation Rescue.

absolutely, don't disagree but find me numbers that are more accurate than Alan guttmacheer's and I will be glad to use them. I most certainly look at the numbers in a skeptics view.

Another thing about the numbers of abortions during Clinton's years. When Clinton was elected, the Pro-life movement stepped up their campaign and once again, abortion became a dirty word for a while. If we can't trust the abortion industry to give us accurate numbers on total abortions, we can't know for sure that abortions went down during that time frame, can we?

Maybe YOU missed this part Immie:


This became less of an issue during the Clinton era, ALONG WITH the awareness of abortion brought to the public and the promoting of using rubbers in sex education and also the promotion of abstinence that came out of the prolife movement.

Maybe they did, but then maybe, rather than going down there were actually more or about equal to before, but just fewer reported?


This became less of an issue during the Clinton era, ALONG WITH the awareness of abortion brought to the public and the promoting of using rubbers in sex education and also the promotion of abstinence that came out of the prolife movement.

Would it be the end of the world if Abortions did REALLY reduce under Clinton's terms? Would that give some sort of message that would be unappealing to Conservatives? And not render the rejoicing, that should be taking place, imo?

I know you would rejoice if abortions were reduced, regardless of whether it was under Clinton or not, but just thought you might also have a heads up on the conservative pro life movement out there too?

jd

btw, don't you just LOVE the title of this thread? ;)

[Immanuel]

jd,

Just pointing out things that I was pretty sure you understood, but had not clarified in your post. You know, give links, credit where credit is due etc!

Heck no it would not be the end of the world if abortions had reduced under Clinton, but then we could all fight on what caused it. Was it because of the Clinton policy or because of the attention that the Pro-life movement was giving the issue at the time or any other reason? I really don't care. If credit belongs to Clinton then more power to him.

I think somewhere in my post, I stated that numbers from the pro-life movement are no more trustworthy that AGI. If not, my error.

And no, I do not just love the title of this thread.

Immie

[darin]

I hate Sin. I'm not immoral. I'm not a bigot against any group. So...what's you're point? Ya know what's telling? NO christian would ever consider the possibility exists where somebody is "less" or "More" of a Christian. Either somebody IS or they are NOT. There is no gray area. The fact you'd use those words betray your lack of understanding. I can help, though. God can help. Look for Him, Gabby. :)

Bump. Still wondering why Gabby thinks I'm "immoral"

[avatar4321]

God found me several years ago. I lacked divine leadership and spiritual inspiration. I was a doubter and a sinner. God found a way to get me into a house of worship and then took control of my life.
Since then, I have avoided the temptations of bigotry and religious hatred. I realize that God speaks to different people in different ways. I love everyone for who they are. I recognize their struggles.
Judge not, lest you be judged. Seems as though a lot of you don't remember this line. Or else you are ignoring it.

There is no need to rip that line out of context. Christ has commanded us to judge righteously. Dont you realize that the Saints will judge the wicked?

[Dilloduck]

There is no need to rip that line out of context. Christ has commanded us to judge righteously. Dont you realize that the Saints will judge the wicked?

I think the earth is getting a bit overcrowded with "saints" to tell you the truth.

[darin]

I hate Sin. I'm not immoral. I'm not a bigot against any group. So...what's you're point? Ya know what's telling? NO christian would ever consider the possibility exists where somebody is "less" or "More" of a Christian. Either somebody IS or they are NOT. There is no gray area. The fact you'd use those words betray your lack of understanding. I can help, though. God can help. Look for Him, Gabby. :)

Bump. Still wondering why Gabby thinks I'm "immoral." Seems she simply enjoys throwing out wild claims and attacks.

[bullypulpit]

The title of the thread "<b>To Christians (that means libs need to not post please )</b>" implies that liberals cannot be "Christian". Please provide evidence from reputable, independent sources to support this assertion.

[darin]

Uh - read the OP. That's THE BIBLE showing why adopting a lifestyle of modern liberalism and their ideals CONTRADICTS Christianity.

[LuvRPgrl]

I am more of a Christian than you will ever be. Because I love my neighbor. Obviously you don't.
Christianity is more than just talk. It is actions. You can quote scripture all your want. But until you can chunk your hate and animosity, you are not a true Christian.

Hate and animosity are not, in and of themselves, always bad things.
God the Father often expressed hatred.

Dont you hate pedophiles?


The title of the thread "<b>To Christians (that means libs need to not post please )</b>" implies that liberals cannot be "Christian". Please provide evidence from reputable, independent sources to support this assertion.

Is God reputable and independent enough?

Liberalism leads to:
acceptence of adultery
confusing the distinction of the genders
distoring the purpose of God giving sex and sexual pleasures
break ups of families
acceptence of homosexuality as normal
murdering innocent babies
stealing peoples money under the guise of "taxation"
removing and attempting to remove God from all forms of public arenas and the government.
Distorting the Constitution
putting animals on a par with humans
Distortion of the Bible, obvious distortions so it will support their agenda (thou shalt not kill???)
the list goes on and on

And please, please do start making your arguements why those things I just listed arent true, I truly could use the LAUGH.
(what would really be funny is if you tried quasing one of those with an origianl idea or thought, instead of the ol talking head points that have been thouroughly refuted over and over and over)

Oddly enough, it was predicted that at "ends time" all these things would happen. Of course, it is my belief that "end times" can occur on a micro level, like the "end" of the supremacy of America.


From: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/293537/jesus_the_last_communist.html

"Since the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the Soviet Union nearly two decades ago, it has been widely assumed that communism is dead. With North Korea in shambles, the Castro era ending in Cuba, and the move to a free market in China, this does appear true. In fact, most attempts at instituting the ideals of communism have failed, mainly because they were instituted by megalomaniacal despots.

However, there is one model of pure communism that has over a billion followers, although most don't practice it the way their founder taught them to. That model is Christianity. Forget Marx and Lenin and Mao; if you want an example of a true Communist leader, Jesus is your man.

Sure, it sounds crazy, and maybe even a little blasphemous to some, but before you judge, consider Webster's definition of communism: "a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed." Now let's look at the guide all Christians use as the basis of their belief, and that some consider infallible: the Bible.

The second and fourth chapters of the Book of Acts give a clear example, too seldom followed in Christian churches today, of what most would consider communism:

"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts." (Acts 2:44-46 NIV)

"All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need." (Acts 4:32-35 NIV)

The Gospels are filled with teachings by Jesus or his followers that encourage, and even demand, a social and economic equality foreign to us today:

"But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." (Luke 14:13 NIV)

"Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me'." (Matt. 19:21 NIV)

"John answered, 'The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same'." (Luke 3:11 NIV)

"Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?" (James 2:15-16 NIV)

This was the model Jesus instituted, and it is one that, minus the religious aspect, Karl Marx would have endorsed wholeheartedly. It was a model of equality that two thousand years ago brought together merchants and beggars, rabbis and prostitutes, soldiers and slaves and eventually converted an empire.

But the movement Jesus founded has lost its way. Many Christians today are the single largest commercial consumers on the planet, with mega-churches, their own bookstores and recording labels, and a political agenda that attacks the very people Jesus called on us to defend. Entire denominations are obsessed with a "prosperity gospel" that equates faith with financial gain.

Some years ago, the Brazilian Archbishop and liberation theologian Dom Helder Camara lamented the situation with these words: "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."

Jesus asked the same question and faced the same dilemma, and the elites of his society responded by killing him. I wonder if we would react differently today."

One of your quotes said "SOME sold their lands" not ALL.

Those are also examples of small groups, on a macro (an entire nation), it would not work, and THOSE people did it VOLUNTARILY. Please show me whrere Jesus demanded that people contribute and distribute equally.


But how do you know this other than someone from your side TELLING you this? How do you KNOW since FDR and his social programs that more of the needy haven't been helped than would have been hurt? The GI Bill was welfare added and I believe it has worked out well and helped grow the middle class from the ranks of the poor.... Social Security saved millions of lives over the years I would venture to guess? Same with Medicare.

So, it seems just a tad shallow to make a blanket statement like that without expressing and showing in reality, what you mean dmp?

Also, what is YOUR SOLUTION...the con's solution, I haven't seen anything of substance to reform or deal with these matter from republicans... only one liners or two, statements criticizing the situationa and trying to put ALL the blame on to liberals when cons themselves added the department of Education, the medicare pill bill and varous things that have grown our government beyond comprehension and beyond anything in the recent past with the growth and BIGNESS of our government, all by their lonesome!?

jd

Oddly enough, we got through the great depression without those programs and without people starving to death on any kind of a regular basis.
(yea, now some liberal is going to pull up some article about how a boy starved to death while imprisoned in the hall closet of his parents house, yea, someone did that once to my comment above-unbelievable)

We were already coming out of the depression when FDR took office and especially when those programs took effect, which was many, many months/years after FDR took office. If you want to know the effect of those programs, you have to use the timeline of when they were actually instituted and what it lead to AFTER their insitutioning, not when the person who supported them came to office.

Besides, you are missing the big point. And liberals just dont get this. They want CONTROL via the govt and INSTANT fixing of "problems"
Take smoking for example
The public trend was going towards non smoking in restaurants etc, etc. However, the public trend is always slow, it takes time. But like most things, if down slowly, it is done better.
But that wasnt good enough for the libs, so they started using the govt to BAN things. What that leads to is more GOVT CONTROL. Ultimately, that is exactly what the founding fathers DIDNT WANT. Ultimately, that is a major problem, (which is also why we need to eliminate income taxation} when the govt continues to add to its power.
What has it lead to? Now the chips are falling, example: the recent ruling on imminent domain.

And conservatives have plenty of answers/solutions, but like a good liberal, you are closed minded and have your ears shut.
SCHOOL CHOICE
Churches feeding the poor instead of welfare, which often gets spent on drugs rather than the kids.
PRIVATE social security accounts.
the list goes on.


Oh please. Jesus was a fucking Communist.

Jesus never had sex, and never FORCED or DEMANDED that people give up or sell their stuff. Communism DEMANDS that.

About your comment on education, education is over rated. Also, plenty of highly educated people are closed minded. I think your statement would be more accurate if you said WISDOM in place of educated.
Im edgeucatid.


I am more of a Christian than you will ever be. Because I love my neighbor. Obviously you don't.
Christianity is more than just talk. It is actions. You can quote scripture all your want. But until you can chunk your hate and animosity, you are not a true Christian.

It figures the first reply is OFF TOPIC,
mean spirited
OFF TOPIC
wrong
OFF TOPIC
judgemental
Did I mention it is OFF TOPIC?