Why Are Most People Cowards? Obedience and Rise of Authoritarianism

[Gunny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOJLGpfnX34

Interesting. 12 minutes

[revelarts]

great video Gunny

.... Factors That Influence Obedience

Why did so many of the participants in this (the Milgram experiment) perform a seemingly brutal act when instructed by an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are some situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
The fact that Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) sponsored the study led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.



Later experiments conducted by Milgram indicated that the presence of rebellious peers dramatically reduced obedience levels. When other people refused to go along with the experimenter's orders, 36 out of 40 participants refused to deliver the maximum shocks.

More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:

How much the individual agrees with the orders
How much they identify with the person giving the orders

While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. ...

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-milgram-obedience-experiment-2795243

[SassyLady]

I was a business and personal coach that taught business owners how to be leaders. I have degree in Organizational Behavior. I have certifications from Rapport Leadership Training Institute. I've been evaluated by a lot of professionals. I've quit jobs because the organization or management was unethical.

One of the common writeups I got was that I wouldn't go against my principles ... even if it meant success.

Guess that's why I could never think about being in a government type of job or the military. I don't like being ordered around. I fought the masks, lockdowns and mandatory vax. I was vilified and couldn't go some places I wanted to. I'm not one to go along to get along.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I was a business and personal coach that taught business owners how to be leaders. I have degree in Organizational Behavior. I have certifications from Rapport Leadership Training Institute. I've been evaluated by a lot of professionals. I've quit jobs because the organization or management was unethical.

One of the common writeups I got was that I wouldn't go against my principles ... even if it meant success.

Guess that's why I could never think about being in a government type of job or the military. I don't like being ordered around. I fought the masks, lockdowns and mandatory vax. I was vilified and couldn't go some places I wanted to. I'm not one to go along to get along.

I am with you, your description describes me my friend. I use my inner moral compass constantly. The hospital my wife was in would not let me in to see her the entire month she was there - why? Because I refused to go get a damn Covid shot!! I will never forget that bullshit. She died 4 months later.
How many times did things like this happen to others? ----Tyr

[AHZ]

I was a business and personal coach that taught business owners how to be leaders. I have degree in Organizational Behavior. I have certifications from Rapport Leadership Training Institute. I've been evaluated by a lot of professionals. I've quit jobs because the organization or management was unethical.

One of the common writeups I got was that I wouldn't go against my principles ... even if it meant success.

Guess that's why I could never think about being in a government type of job or the military. I don't like being ordered around. I fought the masks, lockdowns and mandatory vax. I was vilified and couldn't go some places I wanted to. I'm not one to go along to get along.


evil fears moral people.

[revelarts]

I was a business and personal coach that taught business owners how to be leaders. I have degree in Organizational Behavior. I have certifications from Rapport Leadership Training Institute. I've been evaluated by a lot of professionals. I've quit jobs because the organization or management was unethical.

One of the common writeups I got was that I wouldn't go against my principles ... even if it meant success.

Guess that's why I could never think about being in a government type of job or the military. I don't like being ordered around. I fought the masks, lockdowns and mandatory vax. I was vilified and couldn't go some places I wanted to. I'm not one to go along to get along.

:clap:


Sassy's Bosses

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3og0IUd5D9Y77EXtRK/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e474u7t6hfxvqvshes38gqetht8oq6g dzo5to04v8ow&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[revelarts]

evil fears moral people.
the banality of evil sucks a lot of people in.
slippery slope... ...'2 weeks to slow the spread' - becomes- 'dont let them buy food or health care & lets take their children'

Also Some folks don't like having people who won't compromise around.
At least partly because it makes them uncomfortable with their own compromise, & 'go along to get along', 'everybody's doing it', 'the boss said it's ok', 'im just following orders', mindset.

We're all susceptible to it, being with some crowd is basically everyone's default. God made us social creatures, but He also gave us all moral light to follow & critical thinking skills. So the excuses don't fly. And we know it... sooner or later.

[Gunny]

great video Gunny

.... Factors That Influence Obedience

Why did so many of the participants in this (the Milgram experiment) perform a seemingly brutal act when instructed by an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are some situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
The fact that Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) sponsored the study led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.



Later experiments conducted by Milgram indicated that the presence of rebellious peers dramatically reduced obedience levels. When other people refused to go along with the experimenter's orders, 36 out of 40 participants refused to deliver the maximum shocks.

More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:
How much the individual agrees with the orders
How much they identify with the person giving the orders

While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. ...

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-milgram-obedience-experiment-2795243I posted this over a year ago. I'll have to watch it again.

Meantime, some interesting responses :)

[AHZ]

great video Gunny

.... Factors That Influence Obedience

Why did so many of the participants in this (the Milgram experiment) perform a seemingly brutal act when instructed by an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are some situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
The fact that Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) sponsored the study led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.



Later experiments conducted by Milgram indicated that the presence of rebellious peers dramatically reduced obedience levels. When other people refused to go along with the experimenter's orders, 36 out of 40 participants refused to deliver the maximum shocks.

More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:
How much the individual agrees with the orders
How much they identify with the person giving the orders

While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. ...

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-milgram-obedience-experiment-2795243

yes. there is always free will.

there is always a choice.

[Gunny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOJLGpfnX34

Interesting. 12 minutes

The problem with this argument is it presents extremes. It does not address the middle ground. Automatons vs nonconformists. Society is created so that 2 or more people can live peacefully together. The opposite of that is anarchy. Each and every one of us is a product of and uses our current society.

Starting with nonconformists, the vast majority are full of shit. I'm bad. I'm this. I'm that. No. If one is all that bad, drop everything you have that this society has provided you and walk out naked into the wilderness. Provide your own food, clothing and shelter.

Fact is, these "nonconformists" aren't nonconformist at all. What they want is for society to conform to their rules and regs rather that the ones society has. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want all the amenities society has to off, but they want them their way. The only difference between them and the power brokers that control government is they have no power.

The automatons don't want to think. They haven't been taught to, by design. They want the government to think for them and provided them everything, cradle to grave. They conform less to what is beneficial to society than they do what "the rest" think is cool at the time. And if you don't think it's cool too then you suck and are to be persecuted. They are conditioned from birth to think as they do. They make up the majority regardless political party affiliation because not only are they conditioned to, it's the easy way. The dirtiest 4-letter word in our vocabulary currently is "work".

The government is as good or bad as the aforementioned allow it to be. As are the rules society chooses to follow. When people are careless with their freedom and squander it, most assuredly someone will come along and take it.

A specific the narrator mentions is Peskov, who I disagree with (his actions, not his views). I've said this before: one has to know what one believes is worth fighting for. So Peskov believed in a cause that put him in prison for 5 years, and cost his mother her job where jobs were hard to come by. He made his decision without regard to the effect it would have on others and that's just bullshit in my book and a lack of consideration and/or responsibility for those affected by one's actions.

[Gunny]

great video Gunny

.... Factors That Influence Obedience

Why did so many of the participants in this (the Milgram experiment) perform a seemingly brutal act when instructed by an authority figure? According to Milgram, there are some situational factors that can explain such high levels of obedience:
The physical presence of an authority figure dramatically increased compliance.
The fact that Yale (a trusted and authoritative academic institution) sponsored the study led many participants to believe that the experiment must be safe.
The selection of teacher and learner status seemed random.
Participants assumed that the experimenter was a competent expert.
The shocks were said to be painful, not dangerous.



Later experiments conducted by Milgram indicated that the presence of rebellious peers dramatically reduced obedience levels. When other people refused to go along with the experimenter's orders, 36 out of 40 participants refused to deliver the maximum shocks.

More recent work by researchers suggests that while people do tend to obey authority figures, the process is not necessarily as cut-and-dried as Milgram depicted it.

In a 2012 essay published in PLoS Biology, researchers suggested that the degree to which people are willing to obey the questionable orders of an authority figure depends largely on two key factors:
How much the individual agrees with the orders
How much they identify with the person giving the orders

While it is clear that people are often far more susceptible to influence, persuasion, and obedience than they would often like to be, they are far from mindless machines just taking orders. ...

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-milgram-obedience-experiment-2795243Who were the people that participated in this study? Where from and how were they raised? Environment from birth matters.

[AHZ]

The problem with this argument is it presents extremes. It does not address the middle ground. Automatons vs nonconformists. Society is created so that 2 or more people can live peacefully together. The opposite of that is anarchy. Each and every one of us is a product of and uses our current society.

Starting with nonconformists, the vast majority are full of shit. I'm bad. I'm this. I'm that. No. If one is all that bad, drop everything you have that this society has provided you and walk out naked into the wilderness. Provide your own food, clothing and shelter.

Fact is, these "nonconformists" aren't nonconformist at all. What they want is for society to conform to their rules and regs rather that the ones society has. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want all the amenities society has to off, but they want them their way. The only difference between them and the power brokers that control government is they have no power.

The automatons don't want to think. They haven't been taught to, by design. They want the government to think for them and provided them everything, cradle to grave. They conform less to what is beneficial to society than they do what "the rest" think is cool at the time. And if you don't think it's cool too then you suck and are to be persecuted. They are conditioned from birth to think as they do. They make up the majority regardless political party affiliation because not only are they conditioned to, it's the easy way. The dirtiest 4-letter word in our vocabulary currently is "work".

The government is as good or bad as the aforementioned allow it to be. As are the rules society chooses to follow. When people are careless with their freedom and squander it, most assuredly someone will come along and take it.

A specific the narrator mentions is Peskov, who I disagree with (his actions, not his views). I've said this before: one has to know what one believes is worth fighting for. So Peskov believed in a cause that put him in prison for 5 years, and cost his mother her job where jobs were hard to come by. He made his decision without regard to the effect it would have on others and that's just bullshit in my book and a lack of consideration and/or responsibility for those affected by one's actions.


there should be no compromising with terrorists.

[revelarts]

A specific the narrator mentions is Peskov, who I disagree with (his actions, not his views). I've said this before: one has to know what one believes is worth fighting for. So Peskov believed in a cause that put him in prison for 5 years, and cost his mother her job where jobs were hard to come by. He made his decision without regard to the effect it would have on others and that's just bullshit in my book and a lack of consideration and/or responsibility for those affected by one's actions.


Gunny as someone who's been in the military.
Aren't there times when certain missions put other groups of soldiers in more danger, but the ultimate goal is overall victory?

I get what your saying but doesn't it really come down to a judgement call on the overall value that people are sacrificing for?

Seems you didn't think what he was doing was "worth it'?
Should we have to be guaranteed victory & and no pain to friend of family before we take a stand?

[AHZ]

Gunny as someone who's been in the military.
Aren't there times when certain missions put other groups of soldiers in more danger, but the ultimate goal is overall victory?

I get what your saying but doesn't it really come down to a judgement call on the overall value that people are sacrificing for?

Seems you didn't think what he was doing was "worth it'?
Should we have to be guaranteed victory & and no pain to friend of family before we take a stand?


evil always appeals to selfishness, and makes it a virtue actually.

[revelarts]

evil always appeals to selfishness, and makes it a virtue actually.

You know AHZ,
calling everyone "evil" who doesn't agree with you exactly, isn't really a sensible way to talk to people.
and not exactly rational man.

just sayin'

But hey if that's the track you want to run on.
don't expect many to join you.

[AHZ]

You know AHZ,
calling everyone "evil" who doesn't agree with you exactly, isn't really a sensible way to talk to people.
and not exactly rational man.

just sayin'

But hey if that's the track you want to run on.
don't expect many to join you.


im talking about evil itself. it's traits, m.o. and spiritual operations.

if this describes someone you know that's on that person. and your karma is on you.

i know moral relativism is the boomer greatest achievement, but it's played out.

[Gunny]

Gunny as someone who's been in the military.
Aren't there times when certain missions put other groups of soldiers in more danger, but the ultimate goal is overall victory?

I get what your saying but doesn't it really come down to a judgement call on the overall value that people are sacrificing for?

Seems you didn't think what he was doing was "worth it'?
Should we have to be guaranteed victory & and no pain to friend of family before we take a stand?Not a fair comparison at all. You are comparing an idealist with professionals. He gets far more leeway from me being a civilian than he would if he was military. In effect, trading one's freedom and an unwilling participant's means of surviving for nothing would be tossed onto the planning room floor without much consideration.

On a military mission, the professional Marines (soldiers :slap:) all signed up to risk and/or possibly lose their lives to accomplish the mission. Any mission is going to have a risk, gain-loss assessment before it gets off a desk. Potential friendly gain/loss vs potential enemy gain/loss vs collateral damage - noncombatant personnel/infrastructure loss. In short, is it worth it? Unique to the US is we go to the stupid level on the collateral damage issue due to armchair chickenhawks, politicians and a merciless MSM, all looking to shit on the mission and anyone connected to it. Be that as it may, that is how we are trained.

From a military POV, Peskov did not do an objective risk assessment. If he did, then he's lousy at math. No way is the opportunity to run one's mouth a bit worth 5 years in prison, nor is it worth taking away the livelihood of a noninvolved person swept up in the cleanup.

What we don't know is what Peskov's relationship with his KGB mother was. We do know it has long been established that one of the most formidable weapons the USSR used against its people was threat to family.

[revelarts]

Not a fair comparison at all. You are comparing an idealist with professionals. He gets far more leeway from me being a civilian than he would if he was military. In effect, trading one's freedom and an unwilling participant's means of surviving for nothing would be tossed onto the planning room floor without much consideration.

On a military mission, the professional Marines (soldiers :slap:) all signed up to risk and/or possibly lose their lives to accomplish the mission. Any mission is going to have a risk, gain-loss assessment before it gets off a desk. Potential friendly gain/loss vs potential enemy gain/loss vs collateral damage - noncombatant personnel/infrastructure loss. In short, is it worth it? Unique to the US is we go to the stupid level on the collateral damage issue due to armchair chickenhawks, politicians and a merciless MSM, all looking to shit on the mission and anyone connected to it. Be that as it may, that is how we are trained.

From a military POV, Peskov did not do an objective risk assessment. If he did, then he's lousy at math. No way is the opportunity to run one's mouth a bit worth 5 years in prison, nor is it worth taking away the livelihood of a noninvolved person swept up in the cleanup.

What we don't know is what Peskov's relationship with his KGB mother was. We do know it has long been established that one of the most formidable weapons the USSR used against its people was threat to family.

Interesting so,
Freedom of speech and protest against unjust wars/laws is not worth 5 years in prison and the loss of a family members job.
ineffective so it should never be done.

So how should professionals like yourself fight for the same freedoms here in the U.S.?
or in the USSR(?) where he was?

[Gunny]

Interesting so,
Freedom of speech and protest against unjust wars/laws is not worth 5 years in prison and the loss of a family members job.
ineffective so it should never be done.

So how should professionals like yourself fight for the same freedoms here in the U.S.?
or in the USSR(?) where he was?

Define the illusion of "freedom". I'm certainly not going to do much of anything for the misguided delusion of something that never was, following a dreamer Hell bent on dying for a cause.

[revelarts]

Define the illusion of "freedom". I'm certainly not going to do much of anything for the misguided delusion of something that never was, following a dreamer Hell bent on dying for a cause.
dreamers... "i have a dream"

I wonder, do you think G Washington & crew seemed like they really had a chance in breaking away from England? the most powerful nation in the world at the time?
Looking for freedom, "something that never was"?
In England William Wilberforce worked for 50 years in parliament to the abolish of the slave trade. it happened. delusional?
What about the slaves in the U.S. that ran away and the people that helped them? was freedom something that never was for them? Didn't they put their families in danger?
And the abolitionist. Even like John Brown. he failed but historians credit him for being a final spark for the civil war.
Did it really look like slavery was going to end?
Civil rights the same.
Woman's vote?
heck, 40 hour work week?

India peacefully free from England delusional via Ghandi?
If more Germans had resisted the NAZIs, early on, couldn't they have possibly stopped some of the worse of the Holocaust and the like?
With far fewer lives lost?

I hear what you're saying, but i appreciate anybody who's sincerely taking a shot at creating or maintaining various aspects of the real freedoms we enjoy.
If they are "professionals" or "civilians".
Also seems to me it's BETTER to do it as civilians so the professionals don't have to get involved...as professionals.

BTW, If many of the professionals -military & police- just refuse to follow gov'ts BS unconstitutional orders, then there's more freedom as well.
But doing that might mean a lost of rank or job or jail.. just like the delusional civilians.

[Gunny]

dreamers... "i have a dream"

I wonder, do you think G Washington & crew seemed like they really had a chance in breaking away from England? the most powerful nation in the world at the time?
Looking for freedom, "something that never was"?
In England William Wilberforce worked for 50 years in parliament to the abolish of the slave trade. it happened. delusional?
What about the slaves in the U.S. that ran away and the people that helped them? was freedom something that never was for them? Didn't they put their families in danger?
And the abolitionist. Even like John Brown. he failed but historians credit him for being a final spark for the civil war.
Did it really look like slavery was going to end?
Civil rights the same.
Woman's vote?
heck, 40 hour work week?

India peacefully free from England delusional via Ghandi?
If more Germans had resisted the NAZIs, early on, couldn't they have possibly stopped some of the worse of the Holocaust and the like?
With far fewer lives lost?

I hear what you're saying, but i appreciate anybody who's sincerely taking a shot at creating or maintaining various aspects of the real freedoms we enjoy.
If they are "professionals" or "civilians".
Also seems to me it's BETTER to do it as civilians so the professionals don't have to get involved...as professionals.

BTW, If many of the professionals -military & police- just refuse to follow gov'ts BS unconstitutional orders, then there's more freedom as well.
But doing that might mean a lost of rank or job or jail.. just like the delusional civilians.

Comparing noble achievement to beating one's head against a wall doesn't wash with me. One could say Jan 6th was a noble endeavor, from a certain point of view. Regardless delusions of success, if what those Trump followers pulled was a "plan", no thanks. To call it stupid is being kind. The only people that gained anything from it were the Dems/leftwingnuts and an already politically weaponized DOJ. Winning :rolleyes:

I've said this before: the system is designed to withstand outside attack. It has to be beaten from within. That starts with educating the individual, worker bees and changing from the inside out.

Or, wipe it out and start over. I am not promoting anything, just pointing out options. Money says that wouldn't turn out the way anyone wants either.

Problem I see is for a Nation head and shoulders in standard of living and quality of life ahead of others, everyone's just crying about what they don't have. You mention "freedom"? Try enjoying it instead of complaining about shit not going your way. Multiply that times the population. I've seen people all over the World that cannot conceive WTF spoiled-ass brat Americans are crying about while they sleep on the beach and have to scrounge trash for their meals.

When people have to work to survive, they don't have time to mind everyone else's business. Instead of crying about what they don't have, they try to figure out what they have to do to get what they need. They LOVE it when the American ship shows up and Doc hands out free immunizations and the grunts give them everything they legally can from their packs.

You talk "fight". WHAT fight? And for what? You talk on a message board. I've been places and done things under the shittiest, sometimes life-threatening circumstances. No offense, but who are you to question me?

[AHZ]

Not a fair comparison at all. You are comparing an idealist with professionals. He gets far more leeway from me being a civilian than he would if he was military. In effect, trading one's freedom and an unwilling participant's means of surviving for nothing would be tossed onto the planning room floor without much consideration.

On a military mission, the professional Marines (soldiers :slap:) all signed up to risk and/or possibly lose their lives to accomplish the mission. Any mission is going to have a risk, gain-loss assessment before it gets off a desk. Potential friendly gain/loss vs potential enemy gain/loss vs collateral damage - noncombatant personnel/infrastructure loss. In short, is it worth it? Unique to the US is we go to the stupid level on the collateral damage issue due to armchair chickenhawks, politicians and a merciless MSM, all looking to shit on the mission and anyone connected to it. Be that as it may, that is how we are trained.

From a military POV, Peskov did not do an objective risk assessment. If he did, then he's lousy at math. No way is the opportunity to run one's mouth a bit worth 5 years in prison, nor is it worth taking away the livelihood of a noninvolved person swept up in the cleanup.

What we don't know is what Peskov's relationship with his KGB mother was. We do know it has long been established that one of the most formidable weapons the USSR used against its people was threat to family.


no more war for bidens.

[AHZ]

Comparing noble achievement to beating one's head against a wall doesn't wash with me. One could say Jan 6th was a noble endeavor, from a certain point of view. Regardless delusions of success, if what those Trump followers pulled was a "plan", no thanks. To call it stupid is being kind. The only people that gained anything from it were the Dems/leftwingnuts and an already politically weaponized DOJ. Winning :rolleyes:

I've said this before: the system is designed to withstand outside attack. It has to be beaten from within. That starts with educating the individual, worker bees and changing from the inside out.

Or, wipe it out and start over. I am not promoting anything, just pointing out options. Money says that wouldn't turn out the way anyone wants either.

Problem I see is for a Nation head and shoulders in standard of living and quality of life ahead of others, everyone's just crying about what they don't have. You mention "freedom"? Try enjoying it instead of complaining about shit not going your way. Multiply that times the population. I've seen people all over the World that cannot conceive WTF spoiled-ass brat Americans are crying about while they sleep on the beach and have to scrounge trash for their meals.

When people have to work to survive, they don't have time to mind everyone else's business. Instead of crying about what they don't have, they try to figure out what they have to do to get what they need. They LOVE it when the American ship shows up and Doc hands out free immunizations and the grunts give them everything they legally can from their packs.

You talk "fight". WHAT fight? And for what? You talk on a message board. I've been places and done things under the shittiest, sometimes life-threatening circumstances. No offense, but who are you to question me?


human enslavement keeps people busy and in their place.

cool.

why didn't you say so?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

dreamers... "i have a dream"

I wonder, do you think G Washington & crew seemed like they really had a chance in breaking away from England? the most powerful nation in the world at the time?
Looking for freedom, "something that never was"?
In England William Wilberforce worked for 50 years in parliament to the abolish of the slave trade. it happened. delusional?
What about the slaves in the U.S. that ran away and the people that helped them? was freedom something that never was for them? Didn't they put their families in danger?
And the abolitionist. Even like John Brown. he failed but historians credit him for being a final spark for the civil war.
Did it really look like slavery was going to end?
Civil rights the same.
Woman's vote?
heck, 40 hour work week?

India peacefully free from England delusional via Ghandi?
If more Germans had resisted the NAZIs, early on, couldn't they have possibly stopped some of the worse of the Holocaust and the like?
With far fewer lives lost?

I hear what you're saying, but i appreciate anybody who's sincerely taking a shot at creating or maintaining various aspects of the real freedoms we enjoy.
If they are "professionals" or "civilians".
Also seems to me it's BETTER to do it as civilians so the professionals don't have to get involved...as professionals.

BTW, If many of the professionals -military & police- just refuse to follow gov'ts BS unconstitutional orders, then there's more freedom as well.
But doing that might mean a lost of rank or job or jail.. just like the delusional civilians.

Always a steep and usually heavy cost for doing what is right my friend. The dark and evil world maintains that standard faithfully.
One must always consider the costs to self every time they plan on doing what is right. A moral decision as such requires that...--Tyr

[AHZ]

Always a steep and usually heavy cost for doing what is right my friend. The dark and evil world maintains that standard faithfully.
One must always consider the costs to self every time they plan on doing what is right. A moral decision as such requires that...--Tyr


indeed.

the way i look at it, we're all going to die. you might as well die for what is right, rather than go along with wrong because you think it can help you avoid suffering.

suffering cannot be avoided. make it matter.

[Gunny]

Comparing noble achievement to beating one's head against a wall doesn't wash with me. One could say Jan 6th was a noble endeavor, from a certain point of view. Regardless delusions of success, if what those Trump followers pulled was a "plan", no thanks. To call it stupid is being kind. The only people that gained anything from it were the Dems/leftwingnuts and an already politically weaponized DOJ. Winning :rolleyes:

I've said this before: the system is designed to withstand outside attack. It has to be beaten from within. That starts with educating the individual, worker bees and changing from the inside out.

Or, wipe it out and start over. I am not promoting anything, just pointing out options. Money says that wouldn't turn out the way anyone wants either.

Problem I see is for a Nation head and shoulders in standard of living and quality of life ahead of others, everyone's just crying about what they don't have. You mention "freedom"? Try enjoying it instead of complaining about shit not going your way. Multiply that times the population. I've seen people all over the World that cannot conceive WTF spoiled-ass brat Americans are crying about while they sleep on the beach and have to scrounge trash for their meals.

When people have to work to survive, they don't have time to mind everyone else's business. Instead of crying about what they don't have, they try to figure out what they have to do to get what they need. They LOVE it when the American ship shows up and Doc hands out free immunizations and the grunts give them everything they legally can from their packs.

You talk "fight". WHAT fight? And for what? You talk on a message board. I've been places and done things under the shittiest, sometimes life-threatening circumstances. No offense, but who are you to question me?

Two points I would add to my response:

One, if I have to brag on a message board, or anywhere else for that matter, things I do for others, then I'm not doing them for others, I'm doing them for me. IMO, that makes it cheap.

Two, if I had the greatest plan EVUH to "fix" what ails this country, one place I surely am not announcing it is by posting it on an internet, political message board. Remind me again how most of the people involved in Jan 6th got nailed? The first wave of arrests were results from the FBI spying on people on the internet.

If and when I do things, you hear or read about what was done. Not what I'm going to do.

[Kathianne]

I saw nothing 'noble' in Jan. 6. It was a temper tantrum by someone and his minions that could not accept the loss. Still haven't. Serious? According to Tucker and the film he showed, these were not people out to overthrow anything, they were enjoying a chance to stroll illegally through the Capitol. I understand they wanted Pence to somehow make Trump president, that seems to have been their ultimate reasoning, though most of the 'crimes' were committed after that possibility was well over.

Mind, I do not think most of these people should have spent a day in jail, fines and community service or having to write on responsibilities of a Constitutional government would have been fine with me.

These were not heroes or anyone to put on pedestal.

[Gunny]

I saw nothing 'noble' in Jan. 6. It was a temper tantrum by someone and his minions that could not accept the loss. Still haven't. Serious? According to Tucker and the film he showed, these were not people out to overthrow anything, they were enjoying a chance to stroll illegally through the Capitol. I understand they wanted Pence to somehow make Trump president, that seems to have been their ultimate reasoning, though most of the 'crimes' were committed after that possibility was well over.

Mind, I do not think most of these people should have spent a day in jail, fines and community service or having to write on responsibilities of a Constitutional government would have been fine with me.

These were not heroes or anyone to put on pedestal.I don't believe it was a noble cause. Some do. Could be any cause one believes to be selfless and in the best interest for all.

I believe I also have pointed out more than a few times what a completely dumb idea it was, regardless reasoning. Point being, even if I believed a cause was 110% correct, I'm STILL not following a bad plan that accomplishes nothing more than land me in jail. Is that not what likely keeps people from acting out their urges? In the case of Jan 6th, not so much.

[AHZ]

Two points I would add to my response:

One, if I have to brag on a message board, or anywhere else for that matter, things I do for others, then I'm not doing them for others, I'm doing them for me. IMO, that makes it cheap.

Two, if I had the greatest plan EVUH to "fix" what ails this country, one place I surely am not announcing it is by posting it on an internet, political message board. Remind me again how most of the people involved in Jan 6th got nailed? The first wave of arrests were results from the FBI spying on people on the internet.

If and when I do things, you hear or read about what was done. Not what I'm going to do.
scary......

the plan is easy. do not comply.

[AHZ]

I saw nothing 'noble' in Jan. 6. It was a temper tantrum by someone and his minions that could not accept the loss. Still haven't. Serious? According to Tucker and the film he showed, these were not people out to overthrow anything, they were enjoying a chance to stroll illegally through the Capitol. I understand they wanted Pence to somehow make Trump president, that seems to have been their ultimate reasoning, though most of the 'crimes' were committed after that possibility was well over.

Mind, I do not think most of these people should have spent a day in jail, fines and community service or having to write on responsibilities of a Constitutional government would have been fine with me.

These were not heroes or anyone to put on pedestal.
trump actually won though..

they bragged about it in a time article.

i can get you the link if you're interested.

corrupt judges dismissed it all sight unseen.