Zalensky

[SassyLady]

Suspends all 11 opposing parties and combines media into one entity

chrome-distiller://0aeff562-7f71-4705-94ee-e14b159f0ed3_fa3533e3e8d6987c671668b6abc849ef9849c 5f321ab90dc50aa28d967ef0ae3/?title=President+Zelensky+suspends+11+political+pa rties+in+Ukraine+over+Kremlin+%27collusion%27+clai ms+%7C+Daily+Mail+Online&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fart icle-10633237%2FPresident-Zelensky-suspends-11-political-parties-Ukraine-Kremlin-collusion-claims.html

[revelarts]

for democracy and freedom...

[Kathianne]

Unlike so many other topics one would expect to see reported, this actually has been:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-zelensky-s-party-crackdown-his-first-mistake-

https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1011528/zelensky-nationalizes-tv-news-and-restricts-opposition-parties

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10633237/President-Zelensky-suspends-11-political-parties-Ukraine-Kremlin-collusion-claims.html

[Gunny]

for democracy and freedom...Tell that to the dead and displaced. I'm sure they'll understand :rolleyes:

[SassyLady]

Tell that to the dead and displaced. I'm sure they'll understand :rolleyes:
I don't understand .. it's OK to suspend democracy and freedoms because people died and are displaced?

[Kathianne]

I don't understand .. it's OK to suspend democracy and freedoms because people died and are displaced?

Yep, bad things happen in war, sometimes very bad things. Got to make decisions on fly and sometimes what seems to be mistakes aren't and vice versa.

[SassyLady]

Yep, bad things happen in war, sometimes very bad things. Got to make decisions on fly and sometimes what seems to be mistakes aren't and vice versa.
So, if we go to war is it OK for Biden to shut down the opposition party, shut down internet and nationalize the media (more so than it already is)?

[Kathianne]

So, if we go to war is it OK for Biden to shut down the opposition party, shut down internet and nationalize the media (more so than it already is)?
If we were dealing with Ukraine is, which we are not, perhaps. There was a reason, bad choice that it may have been retrospectively, that FDR won 4th term.

[SassyLady]

If we were dealing with Ukraine is, which we are not, perhaps. There was a reason, bad choice that it may have been retrospectively, that FDR won 4th term.
I don’t think I'll ever be a proponent of censorship.

[Kathianne]

I don’t think I'll ever be a proponent of censorship.

A proponent? Nope. Understanding that war creates quick judgments, some of which may be necessary or appear so at the time. Always the problem is trying to take back extraordinary actions when possible.

[revelarts]

A proponent? Nope. Understanding that war creates quick judgments, some of which may be necessary or appear so at the time. Always the problem is trying to take back extraordinary actions when possible.
that's why there's a constitution
There are no --during War and/or apparent emergency the constitution is null and void or just a buffet of rights to take or leave-- clauses.
Personally I've never seen the -during an emergency reasonable people "Have to" ignore it.- sections

And just because we liked it when our guy did, it never made it legal.
just because we did it because we were afraid, never made it legal.
Just because it seems reasonable from time to time, never made it legal.
And just because it's been done, it has never made it right. And it definitely never made the rights come back fully once taken.

And there's no need to hope we invoke FUTURE hindsight when we have long history of pissing on the constitution and it NOT working.
And having supposed unintended consequences (anyone here a domestic terrorist? are you sure? might appear so at the time)

kath you and others often try to put a sweet spin on it but bottom line the raw truth is that censorship is completely Unconstitutional. (among the many others)
and if we are going to preserve the freedoms of the country we can't pretend that there are reasonable or extreme circumstances where those freedom "have to" be taken away.

But hey we're so far down that road already and (sadly) you and other "reasonable people" of the left and right have lead us here.
And you sound ready to take us farther... if it's "necessary or appear so at the time".

Sadly many Americans do not really want the constitution, left or right.
They prefer comfortable pragmatism or pragmatic leadership, based on what feels good to THEM ...at the time.
Getting closer to full freedoms of the constitution is to frightening and unreasonable for most to consider seriously.

I really wish folks would stop pretending otherwise.

[Gunny]

Yep, bad things happen in war, sometimes very bad things. Got to make decisions on fly and sometimes what seems to be mistakes aren't and vice versa.Freedom isn't free. No one is entitled to it. Ask a Ukranian. If you choose to fight for your freedom rather than be relocated to concentration camps, sacrifices have to be made.

Too bad temporarily suspending the "Rights" of the entitled inconveniences them. Not sure what it takes to get to the part where if you lose, there's no such thing as "rights".

Gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.

[Gunny]

A proponent? Nope. Understanding that war creates quick judgments, some of which may be necessary or appear so at the time. Always the problem is trying to take back extraordinary actions when possible.It's easy to fight in a war. Much harder to switch it off when the war is over and possess and display the integrity to return to that which you were fighting for to begin with.

That's on the people every bit as much as the situation.

[fj1200]

that's why there's a constitution

...

I really wish folks would stop pretending otherwise.

I think you overstate positions. Nobody likes overstepping but Gunny is right, it comes down to people. Everyone here likes the Constitution but treason is defined in the Constitution but who gets to enforce the clause and define all those pesky words; The government. The same one that is going to be making war.

There's a complete difference between the slow loss of freedoms you're speaking of vs. the quick loss of freedoms because war. If you can't trust those fighting for defense of country then you can't trust them to roll things back after the fighting is done.