View Full Version : Secessionists meeting in Tennessee
BoogyMan
10-03-2007, 06:53 PM
Nuts from the North meet nuts from the South.....
Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071003/ap_on_re_us/secessionist_movement_1
CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. - In an unlikely marriage of desire to secede from the United States, two advocacy groups from opposite political traditions — New England and the South — are sitting down to talk.
Tired of foreign wars and what they consider right-wing courts, the Middlebury Institute wants liberal states like Vermont to be able to secede peacefully.
That sounds just fine to the League of the South, a conservative group that refuses to give up on Southern independence.
"We believe that an independent South, or Hawaii, Alaska, or Vermont would be better able to serve the interest of everybody, regardless of race or ethnicity," said Michael Hill of Killen, Ala., president of the League of the South.
Separated by hundreds of miles and divergent political philosophies, the Middlebury Institute and the League of the South are hosting a two-day Secessionist Convention starting Wednesday in Chattanooga.
They expect to attract supporters from California, Alaska and Hawaii, inviting anyone who wants to dissolve the Union so states can save themselves from an overbearing federal government.
If allowed to go their own way, New Englanders "probably would allow abortion and have gun control," Hill said, while Southerners "would probably crack down on illegal immigration harder than it is being now."
The U.S. Constitution does not explicitly prohibit secession, but few people think it is politically viable.
Vermont, one of the nation's most liberal states, has become a hotbed for liberal secessionists, a fringe movement that gained new traction because of the Iraq war, rising oil prices and the formation of several pro-secession groups.
Thomas Naylor, the founder of one of those groups, the Second Vermont Republic, said the friendly relationship with the League of the South doesn't mean everyone shares all the same beliefs.
But Naylor, a retired Duke University professor, said the League of the South shares his group's opposition to the federal government and the need to pursue secession.
"It doesn't matter if our next president is Condoleeza (Rice) or Hillary (Clinton), it is going to be grim," said Naylor, adding that there are secessionist movements in more than 25 states, including Hawaii, Alaska, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Texas.
The Middlebury Institute, based in Cold Spring, N.Y., was started in 2005. Its followers, disillusioned by the Iraq war and federal imperialism, share the idea of states becoming independent republics. They contend their movement is growing.
The first North American Separatist Convention was held last fall in Vermont, which, unlike most Southern states, supports civil unions. Voters there elected a socialist to the U.S. Senate.
Middlebury director Kirpatrick Sale said Hill offered to sponsor the second secessionist convention, but the co-sponsor arrangement was intended to show that "the folks up north regard you as legitimate colleagues."
"It bothers me that people have wrongly declared them to be racists," Sale said.
The League of the South says it is not racist, but proudly displays a Confederate Battle Flag on its banner.
Mark Potok, director of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project, which monitors hate groups, said the League of the South "has been on our list close to a decade."
"What is remarkable and really astounding about this situation is we see people and institutions who are supposedly on the progressive left rubbing shoulders with bona fide white supremacists," Potok said.
Sale said the League of the South "has not done or said anything racist in its 14 years of existence," and that the Southern Poverty Law Center is not credible.
"They call everybody racists," Sale said. "There are, no doubt, racists in the League of the South, and there are, no doubt, racists everywhere."
Harry Watson, director of the Center For the Study of the American South and a history professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, said it was a surprise to see The Middlebury Institute conferring with the League of the South, "an organization that's associated with a cause that many of us associate with the preservation of slavery."
He said the unlikely partnering "represents the far left and far right of American politics coming together."
manu1959
10-03-2007, 06:57 PM
good luck getting across the boarder....
as far as can tell none of these states would survive financially without federal dollars.....
BoogyMan
10-03-2007, 07:02 PM
I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when I read that Vermont has a large contingent wanting to seceed. They better hope the syrup industry can support their budding new country. :D
5stringJeff
10-03-2007, 09:00 PM
Two points:
1. States ratified the Constitution freely; in theory, they should be able to freely leave.
However:
2. In reality, the War Between the States set the precedent for secession: it's not allowed.
MtnBiker
10-03-2007, 09:43 PM
Vermont, one of the nation's most liberal states, has become a hotbed for liberal secessionists, a fringe movement that gained new traction because of the Iraq war, rising oil prices and the formation of several pro-secession groups
They want to seceed because of high oil prices? Holy shit that's funny.
BoogyMan
10-03-2007, 09:47 PM
They want to seceed because of high oil prices? Holy shit that's funny.
They must have finally designed an automobile that runs on syrup! :coffee:
MtnBiker
10-03-2007, 09:49 PM
I don't know, the price of real maple syrup (not that brown corn syrup crap) is probably 4 times the price of oil.
they will be unsecesful.
they want their independence, but i guarantee they will suck off uncle sam's tit for military, roads and will peg their currency to ours if their currency even gets off the ground. are these people stooopid? its like they think if they just close their eyes and sing cumbaya that everything will work just fine
MtnBiker
10-03-2007, 10:40 PM
Let's make them a territory like Guam and take away their electoral votes. :D
Let's make them a territory like Guam and take away their electoral votes. :D
I like it. Then I could vacation "out of country" more often. :)
5stringJeff
10-05-2007, 07:14 AM
Let's make them a territory like Guam and take away their electoral votes. :D
Now THAT is a great idea!
avatar4321
10-05-2007, 07:38 AM
I was watching Glenn Beck this morning at 5am (I wasnt sleeping much for obvious reasons if you read some other threads). Anyway he had the leaders of these secession groups on. It was interesting. I dont think they have fully thought their plans through.
However, what it does indicate is that people are losing faith in the federal government. If the President and Congress continue this tax and spend attitude where they do what they want and ignore the people that put them there we will see more civil unrest. If the government refuses to do whats necessary then the people will rise up and do it themselves.
Abbey Marie
10-05-2007, 11:05 AM
I was watching Glenn Beck this morning at 5am (I wasnt sleeping much for obvious reasons if you read some other threads). Anyway he had the leaders of these secession groups on. It was interesting. I dont think they have fully thought their plans through.
However, what it does indicate is that people are losing faith in the federal government. If the President and Congress continue this tax and spend attitude where they do what they want and ignore the people that put them there we will see more civil unrest. If the government refuses to do whats necessary then the people will rise up and do it themselves.
Ditto their feelings on illegals.
I was just reading last night in the book Founding Brothers about the South's continual threats to secede back in 1790. It's funny to think that people there still feel this way after 200 years. Vermont is a bit of a surprise, though.
Mr. P
10-05-2007, 11:16 AM
Ditto their feelings on illegals.
I was just reading last night in the book Founding Brothers about the South's continual threats to secede back in 1790. It's funny to think that people there still feel this way after 200 years. Vermont is a bit of a surprise, though.
There are wackos everywhere.
avatar4321
10-05-2007, 03:34 PM
There are wackos everywhere.
Yeah, well what seems wacko now in a few years might sound good to alot of people.
I am more convinced than ever that we will see a civil war in our lifetimes.
Yeah, well what seems wacko now in a few years might sound good to alot of people.
I am more convinced than ever that we will see a civil war in our lifetimes.
Why? Do you really think there are enough of these people to form some sort of army? If we have a civil war, I don't think it will be about the issues these secessionists are talking about.
Abbey Marie
10-05-2007, 04:11 PM
Why? Do you really think there are enough of these people to form some sort of army? If we have a civil war, I don't think it will be about the issues these secessionists are talking about.
Which issues do you think could precipitate one?
Which issues do you think could precipitate one?
The issue Pale used to bring up. Immigration. I just don't see a bunch of people wanting gay marriages etc, taking up arms over the issue. Now immigration is a much more serious issue as it deals with land. Gays right to marry is about rights mostly, immigration is about land and votes. There are those that want illegals to have IDs, so as to vote, so as to change the course of this country. Many of those illegals, and some legals, want this land as well. As you know they claim we "stole" it. Land, it seems inevitably, involves war.
manu1959
10-05-2007, 04:28 PM
.
I am more convinced than ever that we will see a civil war in our lifetimes.
no way....i don't see ten people getting off the couch long enough to stop watching dancing with the stars to fight for the right to govern themselves....
Abbey Marie
10-05-2007, 04:37 PM
The issue Pale used to bring up. Immigration. I just don't see a bunch of people wanting gay marriages etc, taking up arms over the issue. Now immigration is a much more serious issue as it deals with land. Gays right to marry is about rights mostly, immigration is about land and votes. There are those that want illegals to have IDs, so as to vote, so as to change the course of this country. Many of those illegals, and some legals, want this land as well. As you know they claim we "stole" it. Land, it seems inevitably, involves war.
I agree; that is why I added Illegals to my first reply. I also think any gutting of the 2nd amendment could do it.
no way....i don't see ten people getting off the couch long enough to stop watching dancing with the stars to fight for the right to govern themselves....
Are you sure?
Beastie Boys - Fight For Your Right (To Party) Lyrics
Kick it!
You wake up late for school man you don't wanna go
You ask you mom, "Please?" but she still says, "No!"
You missed two classes and no homework
But your teacher preaches class like you're some kind of jerk
You gotta fight for your right to party
They have rights man, and they are willing to fight for those rights.......
I agree; that is why I added Illegals to my first reply. I also think any gutting of the 2nd amendment could do it.
Abosolutely. I would hate for it to come that. If we have a socialists/communists prez, it might come to this. I know "All" it takes is alot, but, all it takes is an amendment to the US const. I can't imagine the amendment ever passing, but, if this country swings heavily towards socialism, there is no doubt that the amendment will pass. And if does.........
manu1959
10-05-2007, 04:53 PM
Are you sure?
They have rights man, and they are willing to fight for those rights.......
they talk tough .... they will die on their knees ...... americans are no longer tough as a people ..... there are a few ..... but fo the most part americans are quiters....
they talk tough .... they will die on their knees ...... americans are no longer tough as a people ..... there are a few ..... but fo the most part americans are quiters....
So you would not fight for you right to party?
avatar4321
10-05-2007, 05:03 PM
Why? Do you really think there are enough of these people to form some sort of army? If we have a civil war, I don't think it will be about the issues these secessionists are talking about.
maybe not about the issues, but people are getting tired of things in the status quo. it might take a few decades to rise to the surface completely, but unless major things change it will.
avatar4321
10-05-2007, 05:04 PM
no way....i don't see ten people getting off the couch long enough to stop watching dancing with the stars to fight for the right to govern themselves....
yeah... they unfortunately will likely be the first ones killed.
manu1959
10-05-2007, 05:07 PM
So you would not fight for you right to party?
i currently have that right.....
maybe not about the issues, but people are getting tired of things in the status quo. it might take a few decades to rise to the surface completely, but unless major things change it will.
what exactly is "status quo?"
i currently have that right.....
To a certain decimal level
5stringJeff
10-05-2007, 08:56 PM
Y'all do realize that the first serious threat to secede came from New England, right? It was the Hartford Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_convention).
Abbey Marie
10-05-2007, 09:00 PM
Y'all do realize that the first serious threat to secede came from New England, right? It was the Hartford Convention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_convention).
There were some serious threats made in 1790 by South Carolinians over slavery.
Trigg
10-06-2007, 08:56 AM
My two cents: I don't see why there would need to be a war, if the people in the state vote to secede and have a majority than let them. There have been quite a few countries in Europe that have split Slovakia and the Chech Republic come to mind.
I certainly wouldn't fight to keep states in the Union if the people don't want it.
Gaffer
10-06-2007, 11:01 AM
The one thing the federal government learned from the civil war was that they can control the states with money. Federal money pouring into the states has insured their allegiance for over a hundred and fifty years. Denying funds to states that refused to follow federal guidelines is an effective means of controlling them and the funds make them dependent.
A state which secedes from the union would lose ALL federal funds. This would have a crushing effect on the state. A war would not be necessary as the the state would implode. Especially a state surrounded by other states and no outside means of export or import. The only way for states to survive would be to form a block as the confederacy did.
Immanuel
10-06-2007, 12:35 PM
I was watching Glenn Beck this morning at 5am (I wasnt sleeping much for obvious reasons if you read some other threads). Anyway he had the leaders of these secession groups on. It was interesting. I dont think they have fully thought their plans through.
However, what it does indicate is that people are losing faith in the federal government. If the President and Congress continue this tax and spend attitude where they do what they want and ignore the people that put them there we will see more civil unrest. If the government refuses to do whats necessary then the people will rise up and do it themselves.
When I first heard of these groups, my first thought was, "Lynch the Bastards!". This is my country, all 50 states and I will be damned if I will let them tear it apart.
I too watched them on Glen Beck and I must admit, they do have a point when they speak about the federal government. Not that I advocate secession but a reform of our political system might be in order.
Immie
Gaffer
10-06-2007, 12:50 PM
Secession is not the key. Running the assholes out of washington is.
Immanuel
10-06-2007, 12:57 PM
Secession is not the key. Running the assholes out of washington is.
True... unfortunately, the assholes have the biggest guns.
God Bless America! :salute:
Immie
Hugh Lincoln
10-06-2007, 02:37 PM
no way....i don't see ten people getting off the couch long enough to stop watching dancing with the stars to fight for the right to govern themselves....
A fair point.
But if the secessionists are wackos, so were the founding fathers.
Of course, white separatists talk about this issue a lot. It's always between "we need a war now!" and "nobody gives a shit." I think there's truth to both sides, really.
If something makes our country fall, it will be race and ethnicity. A nation of Hispanics is bullshit. Nobody wants that but the Hispanics. I don't. History shows that you don't have a lot of different groups living together for very long before it goes blow-up.
I give the USA some time --- 75 years, maybe. But remember, there was a "Roman Empire" on paper years after it was pretty much kaput in reality. Same'll probably be true here. I mean, nobody who looks at Miami thinks that's America.
avatar4321
10-06-2007, 06:04 PM
True... unfortunately, the assholes have the biggest guns.
God Bless America! :salute:
Immie
im willing to bet some guys on this board have bigger:)
Immanuel
10-06-2007, 06:24 PM
im willing to bet some guys on this board have bigger:)
Bigger than a tanks? Bigger than a Battleship? That is a scary thought.
But even if they do have bigger guns, the government has a whole army not to mention Navy, Air Force, Marines and a few Coasties too.
Immie
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