For the rest of the story/ies

[revelarts]

I'm not going to get drawn into a lot of discussion about Ukraine and Russia,
however i would like to offers a few places where folks might want to check to get a broader picture or views of various issues and news items.

And in general for the record
•I'm Anti-War.

•the Russian gov't in general is a "bad guy", but I'm not sure the Ukrainian gov't is a "good guy".

•I'm not convinced that wholesale support for Ukraine is the best thing.

•There's No doubt that the wholesale condemnation of Russia is 100% Hypocritical on the part of the US and allies since under "the Bush doctrine" (and without it) we've invaded Iraq and bombed the living Sh•t out of Bagdad and many other cities of Iraq. Via operation "SHOCK AND AWE" etc. And we had troops going door to door into Iraqi homes, with the death of thousands of civilians and torture and all the usual attendant atrocities of war. All because of so-called threats to us from a small nation thousands of miles away.
And Iraq is only ONE nation we've attacked, bombed the cities of and done 'regime change' in over the past 100 years.
(all for good reason i'm sure... just like Putin has good reasons right :rolleyes:)

•I'm sure we should avoid war with Russia, EVEN at great political cost. It's self-destructive to do otherwise.
Even if we 'look' weak:rolleyes: . There's a book that says something like "...Pride goes before destruction...".


Anyway, If anyone is interested in seeing extra info or info from another perspective here are some sites to consider.
As with all media, take the meat and leave the bones.
(not in any particular order)

https://www.censored.news/
https://spitfirelist.com/
https://thegrayzone.com/pushback/
https://www.blacklistednews.com/
https://www.corbettreport.com/
https://scotthorton.org/
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info
https://off-guardian.org


interesting 2015 articles
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/04/17/how-ukraine-commemorates-the-holocaust/
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/19/ukraines-poison-pill-for-peace-talks/
https://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/13/ignoring-ukraines-neo-nazi-storm-troopers/
https://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/04/16/the-murderers-of-kiev/#.VTDP_PXX0RQ.gmail

[revelarts]

I will offer this up as well.


7 FAKE NEWS stories coming out of Ukraine

1. “THE GHOST OF KIEV”
Early Friday morning it was reported that a single Ukrainian plane, a MiG-29, was patrolling the skies above Kiev. The English speaking press called the unnamed pilot “The Ghost of Kiev”, and claimed he had downed 6 Russian jets in air-to-air combat in less than 2 days, making him an official Fighter Ace, and probably one of the fastest to ever earn that title...
...The trouble is there is almost no evidence this happened at all. To quote Newsweek:
'There is zero evidence the “Ghost of Kyiv” exists”.'


2. “RUSSIAN PLANES FLYING OVER KIEV”
A lot of people have been sharing a short video of Russian planes allegedly flying low over the city of Kiev. The Times used it a still from it in their story “Will sanctions stop a Russian shell?”:
...The problem with that is it’s not Kiev, it’s Moscow. And it’s not today, it’s two years ago. It’s footage of what is likely a rehearsal for the 2020 Victory Day Parade flyover....

3. “ZELENSKIY VISITING THE TROOPS”
....
4. “LUHANSK POWER STATION EXPLOSION”
....
5. VIDEO GAMES. AGAIN.
....
6. “RUSSIAN WARSHIP GO **** YOURSELF”
....
7. SYRIAN DRONE STRIKES FOOTAGE
....
See link for details
https://off-guardian.org/2022/02/27/7-fake-news-stories-coming-out-of-ukraine/

"There’s tons of other fakes out there, not to mention fakes of fakes designed to discredit doubters or just spread chaos.
Ultimately, it’s all a timely reminder that propaganda is at its most potent at times where the news is moving fast and people are feeling emotional.
That is WHY the media whips up fear, anxiety and hatred, because people in that emotional state are less likely to think critically.
It should go without saying that this is equally true for both sides. We shouldn’t blindly accept claims from the Russian side, simply because we know NATO lies. Both sides propagandize, and one-eyed scepticism is only a different kind of bias.
In short, if you see something designed to provoke an emotional reaction, don’t let it. Never get swept along in the narrative, always hold yourself back, keep calm and ask rational questions."



https://www.azquotes.com/picture-quotes/quote-truth-is-always-the-first-casualty-of-war-aeschylus-126-82-06.jpg

[revelarts]

my last.;)
Concerning ending the current conflict.

What if Zelensky(sp) simply did one of 2 things.

1. make a formal agreement NEVER to enter NATO and stop harassing the native Russian population.
Or
2. Surrendered to Russia.

While distasteful, the conflict and deaths of Ukrainians would end.
And there's no need for escalation.
No ones past the point where this won't work... unless they WANT to be.
Some people seem MORE comfortable with WW3 than a Ukrainian surrender. which is crazy to me.
("pride goes before a fall..." is something i've read somewhere)

But the fact is the conflict WILL end eventually. And it could be sooner than later, with far less cost to lives and national treasures.

But here's a thought.
Maybe the powers that be want Russia to spend itself & to out crush it with sanctions. Maybe Ukraine is Another trap like Afghanistan was for them in the 80s.
A trap admittedly set up by folks like Brezenski and the western power elites to drain the USSRs resources and to facilitate it's collapse.
Using radical Muslims as tools for the job.

What if, in this case, the western powers have increasingly pressed closer to Russian boarders with NATO nations, adding NATO military bases, missiles, and bioweapons labs, and are using Radical Nazi elements in the region to provoke Russia and drain it's resources AND give the west an excuse to further demonize them.

And maybe the whole thing turns around and bites us in the arse ...again... giving us more than we can chew.
AND everyone loses... but even bigger this time.

[Gunny]

Aeschylus:


So, in the Libyan Fable it is told, /That once an Eagle, stricken with a Dart, /Said, when he saw the Fashion of the Shaft, /’With Our own Feathers, not by other’ hands’ /Are We now smitten.

I think anyone that stands and blows as hard as some have for the past couple of years about their "Rights" and "freedom" should be willing to fight for them, even if it means dying. I think they should be as willing to fight and die if need be for the rights and freedoms of others who are not so fortunate as themselves. Doesn't EVERYBODY deserve the same? Or is okay for "those people" to be enslaved because they weren't born here?

Nobody's more anti-war than a combat vet.

When you face an evil such as Putin, you destroy it before it destroys you.

[revelarts]

I think anyone that stands and blows as hard as some have for the past couple of years about their "Rights" and "freedom" should be willing to fight for them, even if it means dying. I think they should be as willing to fight and die if need be for the rights and freedoms of others who are not so fortunate as themselves. Doesn't EVERYBODY deserve the same? Or is okay for "those people" to be enslaved because they weren't born here?

Nobody's more anti-war than a combat vet.

When you face an evil such as Putin, you destroy it before it destroys you.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?75525-quot-Freedom-quot-now-a-bad-word&highlight=freedom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amedvN8zIE8

[Gunny]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?75525-quot-Freedom-quot-now-a-bad-word&highlight=freedom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amedvN8zIE8Thanks for making my point. Your freedom counts. Fuck everyone else.

You're only as free as your ability to take and hold it. Sorry you don't like the down and dirty, but there it is.

This assclown is a contradiction of ideals. He won't fight "some government's" wars, but it is those governments that are the only things that guarantee whatever it is you and he call freedom.

Perfect example of people who forget where they came from. This "freedom" you take for granted was paid for in blood by those willing to fight for it. Only circumstance has allowed you the luxury of the misguided notion you are entitled to whatever you decide is "freedom".

Good thing you and the guy that will get his brains beat out for chump change have sheepdogs to mind the fence for you:rolleyes:

[revelarts]

Sad thing is Gunny,
that if the soldiers in every country, including Russia, simply put their weapons down and refused to "invade" like robots when order to, there would be no war.
Just disobey such orders. disobey the orders of politicians to go and kill people of other nations. (and refuse to oppress the people of your OWN nation)
Their be no one for the Ukrainians or anyone to fight.

What group people at this point in time needs to fight for "food" or "water" or even "land"?
As far as I can tell, all the wars of my lifetime have been politicians/bankers/MIC/drugdealers BSery.
With Politicians whipping nations in to frenzied patriotic anger about other nations and their people.

Russian leadership is authoritarian oligarchical sh*tshow, Ukrainian leadership is from a U.S. backed coup w fascist inlaid sh*t, Chinas leadership is authoritarian communist sh*t,
Canadian and American leadership are not far behind, and too many western leaders want us all in an authoritarian oligarchical surveillance state, under one world governance.

Sure I want everyone in freedom, And I have the crazy Idea that there's more than one way to get that done... outside of BS wars.
But if you think fighting Russia will achieve freedom for Ukrainians go for it. I don't buy it.
Personally I suspect there will be LESS freedom in Ukraine and world wide the longer their fight goes on.
God knows I hope the best for them.

But Hey I maybe i'm wrong
like i was wrong about Iraq War being BS,
About gov't turning war on terror laws on regular citizens,
About biz biz using it's power to control what people do politically
About Hillary lying about Russiagate
About the gov't spying on all citizens
About Afghanistan being waste and the need for us to come home a decade+ ago.

My track record is not the worse, But i could be wrong here.
SO Maybe if I go over there and fight with the Ukrainians, they will defeat Russia.
Maybe Putin is just bluffing about using nukes if the west .. the U.S... gets involved.
Maybe that's a risk we should take .. for freedom. because it's better for most of the people of the world to live free AFTER a nuclear holocaust,
than for Ukraine to fight alone against Russia. Plus I'm sure the Ukrainians will all be freer after a Nuclear war. and Putin and all the leaders of the nations that caused the war will of course be dead... after they emerge from their well supplied and protected bunkers. And they'll make sure freedom rings.
And it's hypocritical to think otherwise.

[Gunny]

Sad thing is Gunny,
that if the soldiers in every country, including Russia, simply put their weapons down and refused to "invade" like robots when order to, there would be no war.
Just disobey such orders. disobey the orders of politicians to go and kill people of other nations. (and refuse to oppress the people of your OWN nation)
Their be no one for the Ukrainians or anyone to fight.

What group people at this point in time needs to fight for "food" or "water" or even "land"?
As far as I can tell, all the wars of my lifetime have been politicians/bankers/MIC/drugdealers BSery.
With Politicians whipping nations in to frenzied patriotic anger about other nations and their people.

Russian leadership is authoritarian oligarchical sh*tshow, Ukrainian leadership is from a U.S. backed coup w fascist inlaid sh*t, Chinas leadership is authoritarian communist sh*t,
Canadian and American leadership are not far behind, and too many western leaders want us all in an authoritarian oligarchical surveillance state, under one world governance.

Sure I want everyone in freedom, And I have the crazy Idea that there's more than one way to get that done... outside of BS wars.
But if you think fighting Russia will achieve freedom for Ukrainians go for it. I don't buy it.
Personally I suspect there will be LESS freedom in Ukraine and world wide the longer their fight goes on.
God knows I hope the best for them.

But Hey I maybe i'm wrong
like i was wrong about Iraq War being BS,
About gov't turning war on terror laws on regular citizens,
About biz biz using it's power to control what people do politically
About Hillary lying about Russiagate
About the gov't spying on all citizens
About Afghanistan being waste and the need for us to come home a decade+ ago.

My track record is not the worse, But i could be wrong here.
SO Maybe if I go over there and fight with the Ukrainians, they will defeat Russia.
Maybe Putin is just bluffing about using nukes if the west .. the U.S... gets involved.
Maybe that's a risk we should take .. for freedom. because it's better for most of the people of the world to live free AFTER a nuclear holocaust,
than for Ukraine to fight alone against Russia. Plus I'm sure the Ukrainians will all be freer after a Nuclear war. and Putin and all the leaders of the nations that caused the war will of course be dead... after they emerge from their well supplied and protected bunkers. And they'll make sure freedom rings.
And it's hypocritical to think otherwise.
Great idea. Back to reality? There ARE bad guys out there. You seem to think this is some kind of game or some shit. Was up to me there'd be a stretch of beach and ice cold Corona for everyone. There's not. Evil exists. Since you like quotes, here's one attributed to Sir Edmund Burke with no evidence he ever said it:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".

That's you.

[SassyLady]

Sad thing is Gunny,
that if the soldiers in every country, including Russia, simply put their weapons down and refused to "invade" like robots when order to, there would be no war.
Just disobey such orders. disobey the orders of politicians to go and kill people of other nations. (and refuse to oppress the people of your OWN nation)
Their be no one for the Ukrainians or anyone to fight.

What group people at this point in time needs to fight for "food" or "water" or even "land"?
As far as I can tell, all the wars of my lifetime have been politicians/bankers/MIC/drugdealers BSery.
With Politicians whipping nations in to frenzied patriotic anger about other nations and their people.

Russian leadership is authoritarian oligarchical sh*tshow, Ukrainian leadership is from a U.S. backed coup w fascist inlaid sh*t, Chinas leadership is authoritarian communist sh*t,
Canadian and American leadership are not far behind, and too many western leaders want us all in an authoritarian oligarchical surveillance state, under one world governance.

Sure I want everyone in freedom, And I have the crazy Idea that there's more than one way to get that done... outside of BS wars.
But if you think fighting Russia will achieve freedom for Ukrainians go for it. I don't buy it.
Personally I suspect there will be LESS freedom in Ukraine and world wide the longer their fight goes on.
God knows I hope the best for them.

But Hey I maybe i'm wrong
like i was wrong about Iraq War being BS,
About gov't turning war on terror laws on regular citizens,
About biz biz using it's power to control what people do politically
About Hillary lying about Russiagate
About the gov't spying on all citizens
About Afghanistan being waste and the need for us to come home a decade+ ago.

My track record is not the worse, But i could be wrong here.
SO Maybe if I go over there and fight with the Ukrainians, they will defeat Russia.
Maybe Putin is just bluffing about using nukes if the west .. the U.S... gets involved.
Maybe that's a risk we should take .. for freedom. because it's better for most of the people of the world to live free AFTER a nuclear holocaust,
than for Ukraine to fight alone against Russia. Plus I'm sure the Ukrainians will all be freer after a Nuclear war. and Putin and all the leaders of the nations that caused the war will of course be dead... after they emerge from their well supplied and protected bunkers. And they'll make sure freedom rings.
And it's hypocritical to think otherwise.
The thing is, Rev, not all soldiers fight because they are ordered to. They fight for ideals and for better conditions for their family and country. Thank God for those that are willing to protect us from evil.

I am not a proponent for war but laying down your arms will not stop the killing.

[revelarts]

people have died needless all my life so i guess the time is past for softer replies
My apologies if my words offend or seem "crazy" or unpatriotic or "hateful" of America or disrecptpful of our military.
That's not my intent.
There are folks in my family who have fought overseas in every major war since WW2. So I'm not being flip.
And for some I understand what i say is hard to fathom as showing the proper reverence or respect or being very "realistic".
However if we're going to honest it must be said.


The thing is, Rev, not all soldiers fight because they are ordered to. They fight for ideals and for better conditions for their family and country. Thank God for those that are willing to protect us from evil.

I am not a proponent for war but laying down your arms will not stop the killing.


So if the Russian soldiers collectively disobeyed their orders and went home, It would not stop the killing?
Are the Russian soldiers fighting for "ideals and for better conditions for their family and country"?
Or have they been told that by politicians
or have they doing out fear of their own nations (other soldiers and courts),
or out of fear of being called a coward, deserter or traitor to their nation and families?
or what?

I never meant to imply that all soldiers fight only because they're ordered to.
Many, if not most in the U.S. go in to do exactly what you describe. And many BELEIVE that's what they are doing when they OBEY.
However based on my POV, in my lifetime, the reasons POLITICIANS have sent our soldiers to kill overseas have not been for those ideals. Even though the POLITICIANS have PAINTED it as such. Every time. But every time they've been primarily lying.
And some Military and other Americans and people of the world have figured that out.

If .. as unrealistic as it may seem... ALL soldiers from all countries FIGURED that out their would be NO war in Ukraine or most of the world. The Muslims terror problem is based on religious/poltical lies.
If the lies are mostly squelched there No terror conflict there either. Same with the white nationalist BSery that still runs though some people heads.
I'm Not talking about utopia, People will still act like crap to each other, but the major BSery of national wars is a horror show that could be mostly avoided If ALL the people on the ground and in the planes and in the ships said, Hell no, I'm not doing it.
Because the reasons are political BullSh*t for me to go over this broader & kill those people.

Like Capitalism, I think Nationalism is Great, but has no moral Check, there's a point where it's goes into unrealism where politicians lead people into doing things to others that are simply evil.
Shaking off the nationalist/militaristic blinders (the militaristic national Cult-ure) to get to the point of seeing it that way is not easy and not a place many want to go.

"pride goes before a fall..."

[revelarts]

Just to show my point is not completely outrageous.

After World War II, tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers mutinied — and won

According to U.S. law, if a military service member commits mutiny, attempts mutiny or even fails to report a mutiny, that person “shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.”
According to U.S. history, however, if tens of thousands of military service members commit mutiny en masse, they won’t be punished at all. In fact, the president just might capitulate to their demands.
That’s more or less what happened in the aftermath of the Second World War.
Veterans have often wielded outsize political influence — catered to as voters, recruited as candidates and rewarded with government benefits — and the number of veteran advocacy groups has exploded in recent years. But few times have they flexed their political muscle as they did in 1946, when huge numbers of the very fighters who had just defeated the Axis powers directly challenged their commanders with a demand to return home and, miraculously, won.

The story began just after the war concluded with Japan’s surrender in August 1945. That same month, threatened with left-wing independence movements in its far-flung overseas territories and across Asia, the U.S. government decided that rather than fully demobilize the military, it would maintain a troop force of 2.5 million.
That did not go over well with the soldiers’ families, who bombarded their congressional representatives with photos of children missing their fathers and pairs of baby shoes with tags reading “Bring Daddy home.” Washington relented, and soldiers packed their bags, until President Harry S. Truman panicked at the “dangerous speed” of demobilization and ordered a slowdown in January 1946.

Now it was the troops’ turn to put up a fight.
The first protests took place in the Philippines, a U.S. colony that had suffered untold repression and slaughter in the 50 years since Spain handed it over in the Spanish-American War. During World War II, the United States had fought to end a brutal occupation by the Japanese. Then, more than 20,000 American soldiers marched in Manila, demanding to return home.
Another 20,000 demonstrated in Honolulu. Three thousand joined them in Korea, and 5,000 in Kolkata. In Guam, 3,500 Air Force troops staged a hunger strike, while 18,000 soldiers pooled money to send a cable to journalists making their case for repatriation.
The armed forces were segregated at the time, and all 250 members of the all-Black 823rd Engineer Aviation Battalion in Burma sent a letter to Truman, saying they were “disgusted with undemocratic American foreign policy” and did not want to “take the field in league with the alien rulers against the freedom revolts of the oppressed peoples.”

When Lt. Gen. W.D. Styler, the Army’s commanding general in the West Pacific, addressed the troops on the radio, they drowned him out with boos. When Secretary of War Robert P. Patterson landed on Guam, service members protested and burned him in effigy.
Truman told an aide that the protests were “plain mutiny.” And yet just one day after the biggest protests kicked off in Manila, Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower announced that the military would not discipline the protesting soldiers because there “had been no acts of violence or disorder.”

Then the government gave in to the demonstrators and began a rapid drawdown of troops. A year and a half later, the Army had shrunk to fewer than 1 million men.

So how did they get away with it?
Partly, the GIs recognized how much leverage they had after fighting and winning a broadly popular war.
“There’s an understanding that they have a lot of power, and they’re not all gonna get executed,” said Daniel Immerwahr, a Northwestern University historian and author of “How to Hide an Empire,” a history of U.S. imperialism. “It’s an amazing moment, when so much has been invested in the war about the importance of these men and the sacrifice they’re making. And they’re learning to flex that power politically.”

Truman’s approval rating was plummeting at the time, and the last thing he wanted to do was make enemies of the young men the country overwhelmingly viewed as heroes....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/after-world-war-ii-tens-of-thousands-of-us-soldiers-mutinied-—-and-won/ar-AAQA6LJ?ocid=ientp


"If you do nothing unexpected, nothing unexpected happens."

[SassyLady]

people have died needless all my life so i guess the time is past for softer replies
My apologies if my words offend or seem "crazy" or unpatriotic or "hateful" of America or disrecptpful of our military.
That's not my intent.
There are folks in my family who have fought overseas in every major war since WW2. So I'm not being flip.
And for some I understand what i say is hard to fathom as showing the proper reverence or respect or being very "realistic".
However if we're going to honest it must be said.




So if the Russian soldiers collectively disobeyed their orders and went home, It would not stop the killing?

They would be executed as traitors when they return. Killing has not stopped.


Are the Russian soldiers fighting for "ideals and for better conditions for their family and country"?

I'm sure some believe they are.

Or have they been told that by politicians
or have they doing out fear of their own nations (other soldiers and courts),
or out of fear of being called a coward, deserter or traitor to their nation and families?
or what?

People will always find reasons to kill. So, perhaps any of the above could apply.


I never meant to imply that all soldiers fight only because they're ordered to.
Many, if not most in the U.S. go in to do exactly what you describe. And many BELEIVE that's what they are doing when they OBEY.
However based on my POV, in my lifetime, the reasons POLITICIANS have sent our soldiers to kill overseas have not been for those ideals. Even though the POLITICIANS have PAINTED it as such. Every time. But every time they've been primarily lying.
And some Military and other Americans and people of the world have figured that out.

I agree that we've been lied to by politicians about why we go to war.

If .. as unrealistic as it may seem... ALL soldiers from all countries FIGURED that out their would be NO war in Ukraine or most of the world. The Muslims terror problem is based on religious/poltical lies.

If they figured it out before they became soldiers there would be no soldiers to fight. But realistically, Rev, that is not going to happen. Never will it be "all countries". Some soldiers use war to elevate themselves to higher power. Military takeovers happen all the time.

If the lies are mostly squelched there No terror conflict there either. Same with the white nationalist BSery that still runs though some people heads.
I'm Not talking about utopia, People will still act like crap to each other, but the major BSery of national wars is a horror show that could be mostly avoided If ALL the people on the ground and in the planes and in the ships said, Hell no, I'm not doing it.
Because the reasons are political BullSh*t for me to go over this broader & kill those people.

Sorry, never going to happen. War is over resources and territory. Since time began. Never will you get "all the people" to stop. Unless, those in military quit the service and no new recruits sign up. And then we are defenseless when nations like Russia, Iran, China, etc. decide to not stand down and do the same thing.

Like Capitalism, I think Nationalism is Great, but has no moral Check, there's a point where it's goes into unrealism where politicians lead people into doing things to others that are simply evil.
Shaking off the nationalist/militaristic blinders (the militaristic national Cult-ure) to get to the point of seeing it that way is not easy and not a place many want to go.

"pride goes before a fall..."


I agree that war is bad but it won't be stopped at the soldier level. It has to start with those in power ... politicians, media, universities, etc.

Rage if you need to Rev. I have the same rage about child abuse. I wish that everyone who's ever abused a child would drop dead immediately. However, there is so much corruption in the world (undoubtedly by same type of people who call for, and benefit from, war) that the abusers are protected more than the children. But, that's for another thread.

[fj1200]

Like Capitalism, I think Nationalism is Great, but has no moral Check, there's a point where it's goes into unrealism where politicians lead people into doing things to others that are simply evil.

Capitalism: Good. It is its own moral check. Nationalism*/populism: Bad. I agree it has no moral check.

*Depending on your definition.

[Gunny]

Idealism is great. Even I allow myself the decadent luxury of wistful thinking on occasion.

Reality is, as things are right now, we're heading ass-backwards, ill-prepared and un-led into a war. Dreams might keep some alive intellectually, but they don't do jack shit when bullets start flying down range.