Vaccinations - back and forth

[jimnyc]

The main argument floating around of course is the vaccine and whether folks should be getting it or not.

Does it help? Does it not help? Is it worth taking? It's a personal choice, IMO, and the statistics seem to be 'missing' - just like when the government said the Vaers database was inaccurate at the moment, of which it was in fact. But I still haven't seen an appropriate update since.

The good news, somewhat, if you will about those taking the vaccination:

164 million folks vaccinated.


5,567 over 65
1,347 asymptomatic
7,101 hospitalizations
1,507 deaths

*1,816 (26%) of 7,101 hospitalizations reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19.
†316 (21%) of 1,507 fatal cases reported as asymptomatic or not related to COVID-19.


How to interpret these data
The number of COVID-19 vaccine breakthrough infections reported to CDC likely are an undercount of all SARS-CoV-2 infections among fully vaccinated persons. National surveillance relies on passive and voluntary reporting, and data might not be complete or representative. These surveillance data are a snapshot and help identify patterns and look for signals among vaccine breakthrough cases.

Data on patients with vaccine breakthrough infection who were hospitalized or died will be updated regularly. Studies are being conducted in multiple U.S. sites that will include information on all vaccine breakthrough infections regardless of clinical status to supplement the national surveillance.

COVID-19 vaccines are effective
Vaccine breakthrough cases occur in only a small percentage of vaccinated people. To date, no unexpected patterns have been identified in the case demographics or vaccine characteristics among people with reported vaccine breakthrough infections.
COVID-19 vaccines are effective. CDC recommends that everyone 12 years of age and older get a COVID-19 vaccine as soon as they can.
People who have been fully vaccinated can resume activities that they did prior to the pandemic.

Rest - https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html


But I do not trust the CDC much anymore. I do not trust WHO anymore. I certainly don't trust Anthony Fauci. I definitely don't trust anything coming from this administration. I would never gather my information from any single one of those places.

That said - just as the numbers are really very very low to begin with. and the odds of croaking are also extremely low. The death rate is very low. Now if you're very old, and maybe also in a crappy nursing home, then worry a little maybe. 80 years old and above is still only in the 2% range and literally drops dramatically and then some when you hit 70 and lower and then even more so for 60-50. Myself in the 50 year old range equates to .007%.

You have a better chance of dying from suicide, overdose, falling down, gun crime, choking, sunstroke, radiation poisoning....

Seems like a low chance if vaccinated and a low chance if not vaccinated. :dunno:

And don't kill me here SassyLady - just copying some of the story over!

Similar with the Hydroxy - hide it from everyone and make a black market for it. Some stories make it sound as if this is solely for animals when it's not. Smaller doses are in fact used for humans. But black market it and make it so doctors can't prescribe, then of course folks will go elsewhere. I have read a few studies and reports showing it to be helpful.


Conclusions:
Moderate-certainty evidence finds that large reductions in COVID-19 deaths are possible using ivermectin. Using ivermectin early in the clinical course may reduce numbers progressing to severe disease. The apparent safety and low cost suggest that ivermectin is likely to have a significant impact on the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic globally.

Similar happened with Hydroxy and studies showing it to be effective.

Some people are taking an anti-parasitic to treat COVID. Here’s why that’s a bad idea

Some people itching to get their hands on a COVID-19 cure are putting themselves in danger for taking unprescribed doses of ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug used to treat diseases such as river blindness or scabies in people and prevent heartworm disease and other infestations in animals.

The drug has been flying off the shelves of farm supply stores and veterinary offices as people, mostly those who refuse to get vaccinated, search for unconventional ways out of the pandemic.

Yet, several federal and international health agencies, including the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health and the World Health Organization, have advised against using ivermectin to treat or prevent COVID-19 outside of controlled clinical trials.

That’s because taking large unprescribed doses intended for animals can seriously harm your health.

“Let’s say it was manufactured for a large horse, but a human takes it, it can create low blood pressure, rapid heart rates, seizures; there are even episodes where you can see layers of your skin fall off. It can damage the liver, and there’s vision loss that can be associated,” Dr. Shane Speights, site dean at the New York Institute of Technology College of Osteopathic Medicine, told KAIT8.

“Data is just not good on ivermectin right now for the treatment of COVID. One of the drug manufacturers even said don’t use it,” Speights told the outlet. “Right now, the only answer to COVID is to be fully vaccinated.”

Rest - https://news.yahoo.com/people-taking-anti-parasitic-treat-212701198.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

[fj1200]

I'm not sure how it can be argued that the vaccine is not effective. Mortality may be low but it's lower with vaccination. There's good people at the CDC; I know some, but it doesn't mean that the leadership can't be political and stupid at times or overstep their bounds with eviction moratoriums and the like. I think people should be able to make their choices.

But VAERS I don't think is ever "accurate." It does what it's designed to do and be a repository of data where connections can be made to try and figure out causation and not just correlation.

[Juicer66]

I'm not sure how it can be argued that the vaccine is not effective. Mortality may be low but it's lower with vaccination. There's good people at the CDC; I know some, but it doesn't mean that the leadership can't be political and stupid at times or overstep their bounds with eviction moratoriums and the like. I think people should be able to make their choices.But VAERS I don't think is ever "accurate." It does what it's designed to do and be a repository of data where connections can be made to try and figure out causation and not just correlation.


I'm not sure how it can be argued that the vaccine is not effective. Mortality may be low but it's lower with vaccination.
It is no more effective than from NOT being inoculated.
If anything it is 'safer' not to be inoculated when under 70 and with no comorbidities
Absolutely nothing is known about long term safety and initial concerns are could turn into horror.
Spike Protein toxicity and spread plus the presence of the poison Graphene Oxide are very scary . To brush aside such concerns is irrational and potentially disastrous .

-----The leadership can't be political and stupid at times or overstep their bounds with eviction moratoriums and the like. I think people should be able to make their choices.
It is their current plus past actions that require assessing .
After assessing what they have done over the last 40 years , say , and the ways in which they have behaved , I suggest any fair minded person would not want to have anything to do with them and would regard them as a Family Crime Group .
Harsh but the evidence is damning but outside the scope of this Chat site . DYOR if it really interests .


VAERS I don't think is ever "accurate." It does what it's designed to do and be a repository of data where connections can be made to try and figure out
causation and not just correlation.

VAERS cannot be accurate by definition and intention . It is a reporting system and therefore only as good as the quantity and quality of responses it elicits.
What is important is knowing the likely level of under-reporting and that has been researched as being up to 90% .
Therefore, however you look at the figures they are very frightening -- the last thirty years of reported reactions for ALL vaccines is much less than the amount just against Covid . Astounding .
At what point do you admit that only calling deaths and injuries coincidences is stupid and criminal ? The pathetic Correlation versus Causation so called dilemma .
From memory the SARS 1 Hoax pandemic ( synthetic virus ) vaccine was halted after 5 deaths .


There is something very rotten and putrid in the state of Denmark , Horatio. imho .

[fj1200]

^None of your comments are worth much in this thread as they weren't much in the other threads you've brought them up.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm not sure how it can be argued that the vaccine is not effective. Mortality may be low but it's lower with vaccination.
It is no more effective than from NOT being inoculated.
If anything it is 'safer' not to be inoculated when under 70 and with no comorbidities
Absolutely nothing is known about long term safety and initial concerns are could turn into horror.
Spike Protein toxicity and spread plus the presence of the poison Graphene Oxide are very scary . To brush aside such concerns is irrational and potentially disastrous .

-----The leadership can't be political and stupid at times or overstep their bounds with eviction moratoriums and the like. I think people should be able to make their choices.
It is their current plus past actions that require assessing .
After assessing what they have done over the last 40 years , say , and the ways in which they have behaved , I suggest any fair minded person would not want to have anything to do with them and would regard them as a Family Crime Group .
Harsh but the evidence is damning but outside the scope of this Chat site . DYOR if it really interests .


VAERS I don't think is ever "accurate." It does what it's designed to do and be a repository of data where connections can be made to try and figure out
causation and not just correlation.

VAERS cannot be accurate by definition and intention . It is a reporting system and therefore only as good as the quantity and quality of responses it elicits.
What is important is knowing the likely level of under-reporting and that has been researched as being up to 90% .
Therefore, however you look at the figures they are very frightening -- the last thirty years of reported reactions for ALL vaccines is much less than the amount just against Covid . Astounding .
At what point do you admit that only calling deaths and injuries coincidences is stupid and criminal ? The pathetic Correlation versus Causation so called dilemma .
From memory the SARS 1 Hoax pandemic ( synthetic virus ) vaccine was halted after 5 deaths .


There is something very rotten and putrid in the state of Denmark , Horatio. imho .





Pay no heed to any naysayers that are cheerleading the vaccine as if they are getting paid to doso.. Because very likely many of the corrupted assholes are getting paid to do just that, imho... Very irritating to read how such idiots ignore or else downplay the many negatives, I know that deliberate blindness comes from an evil heart. Myself , I spit on such assholes. And dare any of those assholes to ever face me in person and then see how a real man, a truly decent person treats them when they are not hiding.., Tyr

[jimnyc]

Pay no heed to any naysayers that are cheerleading the vaccine as if they are getting paid to doso.. Because very likely many of the corrupted assholes are getting paid to do just that, imho... Very irritating to read how such idiots ignore or else downplay the many negatives, I know that deliberate blindness comes from an evil heart. Myself , I spit on such assholes. And dare any of those assholes to ever face me in person and then see how a real man, a truly decent person treats them when they are not hiding.., Tyr

I hope you didn't take my OP as cheerleading for the vaccine. Kinda just showing both sides. If I had to make my decision again today, not sure what I would do. And now that my traveling is over, I also found out I never even needed any proof of vaccination for my travels and everything was the same whether vaccinated or not. So I was even kind of duped there as well.

[Juicer66]

Pay no heed to any naysayers that are cheerleading the vaccine as if they are getting paid to doso.. Because very likely many of the corrupted assholes are getting paid to do just that, imho... Very irritating to read how such idiots ignore or else downplay the many negatives, I know that deliberate blindness comes from an evil heart. Myself , I spit on such assholes. And dare any of those assholes to ever face me in person and then see how a real man, a truly decent person treats them when they are not hiding.., Tyr


Thanks for that though I am never in the least put out when people react emotionally but leave their brains switched off .

I post on the basis that there may be one person occasionally who decides to think before just parroting a conditioned response .

At the worst I lose a little time but others will have kept me laughing albeit without their realising .

[Gunny]

It is my opinion that when or until people quit questioning the intelligence of thos who choose to or not to get vaccinated , this argument won't end. So who stands to gain most by finding something else to divide the people?

And why do I get the feeling those behind the divisiveness only care who lives or dies as it suits their narrative to keep it going?

Just a thought.

[fj1200]

Pay no heed to any naysayers that are cheerleading the vaccine as if they are getting paid to doso.. Because very likely many of the corrupted assholes are getting paid to do just that, imho... Very irritating to read how such idiots ignore or else downplay the many negatives, I know that deliberate blindness comes from an evil heart. Myself , I spit on such assholes. And dare any of those assholes to ever face me in person and then see how a real man, a truly decent person treats them when they are not hiding.., Tyr

Passive-aggressive bravery behind a keyboard. Pathetic.

[fj1200]

Thanks for that though I am never in the least put out when people react emotionally but leave their brains switched off .

I post on the basis that there may be one person occasionally who decides to think before just parroting a conditioned response .

At the worst I lose a little time but others will have kept me laughing albeit without their realising .

This one person did a little "DYOR" and decided you were full of it. :)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I hope you didn't take my OP as cheerleading for the vaccine. Kinda just showing both sides. If I had to make my decision again today, not sure what I would do. And now that my traveling is over, I also found out I never even needed any proof of vaccination for my travels and everything was the same whether vaccinated or not. So I was even kind of duped there as well.

I had not a single problem with your thread comment Jim.
You and I are both in agreement about how it is the person's right to decide to take or not take the shot.
And you - DO NOT- ignore the many negatives as do some of these cheerleading, ffing idiots, liars , pieces of shittttttt that try to vilify those that declined to take part in this unsafe, experimental trial they are now running...
My statement stands to and about ---any member-- of that cowardly, corrupt , lying group.--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Quote Originally Posted by Tyr-Ziu Saxnot View Post
Pay no heed to any naysayers that are cheerleading the vaccine as if they are getting paid to doso.. Because very likely many of the corrupted assholes are getting paid to do just that, imho... Very irritating to read how such idiots ignore or else downplay the many negatives, I know that deliberate blindness comes from an evil heart. Myself , I spit on such assholes. And dare any of those assholes to ever face me in person and then see how a real man, a truly decent person treats them when they are not hiding.., Tyr




Passive-aggressive bravery behind a keyboard. Pathetic.


hmmmm. lets see...

This part of my post points to my speaking about a group- not an individual-- I made that clear using this word-- "assholes"--now did that lead you to think of yourself???


I know that deliberate blindness comes from an evil heart. Myself , I spit on such assholes.

What is truly pathetic in your case , is when a guilty dog barks because it is so arrogant as to think --everything-- is about its own godly, and self-aggrandized character and actions. You were not the target -that huge group that I mentioned was, but if you felt slighted(because of your amazing ability to see into other people's minds)- well then, hell--good! By the way, when I choose to be aggressive and take action-- there is not ever a damn thing passive about it, idiot....
Now go piss on some fire-hydrants and guard your dem/leftist masters' yard..--Tyr

[fj1200]

hmmmm. lets see...

This part of my post points to my speaking about a group- not an individual-- I made that clear using this word-- "assholes"--now did that lead you to think of yourself???


What is truly pathetic in your case , is when a guilty dog barks because it is so arrogant as to think --everything-- is about its own godly, and self-aggrandized character and actions. You were not the target -that huge group that I mentioned was, but if you felt slighted(because of your amazing ability to see into other people's minds)- well then, hell--good! By the way, when I choose to be aggressive and take action-- there is not ever a damn thing passive about it, idiot....
Now go piss on some fire-hydrants and guard your dem/leftist masters' yard..--Tyr

Toward me? No. You're a passive aggressive coward against naysayers and anyone you can't shout down. You don't want the vaccine then don't get the vaccine. You're very free to ignore all the evidence that you want, good, bad, or otherwise, and inject another mindless rant into the 50th* thread where you can talk as tough as you want. Each time I see it though I chalk it up to another level of ignorant ravings.



*Taking a wild guess.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

:laugh:

[SassyLady]

The main argument floating around of course is the vaccine and whether folks should be getting it or not.

Does it help? Does it not help? Is it worth taking? It's a personal choice, IMO, and the statistics seem to be 'missing' - just like when the government said the Vaers database was inaccurate at the moment, of which it was in fact. But I still haven't seen an appropriate update since.

The good news, somewhat, if you will about those taking the vaccination:

164 million folks vaccinated.





Rest - https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html


But I do not trust the CDC much anymore. I do not trust WHO anymore. I certainly don't trust Anthony Fauci. I definitely don't trust anything coming from this administration. I would never gather my information from any single one of those places.

That said - just as the numbers are really very very low to begin with. and the odds of croaking are also extremely low. The death rate is very low. Now if you're very old, and maybe also in a crappy nursing home, then worry a little maybe. 80 years old and above is still only in the 2% range and literally drops dramatically and then some when you hit 70 and lower and then even more so for 60-50. Myself in the 50 year old range equates to .007%.

You have a better chance of dying from suicide, overdose, falling down, gun crime, choking, sunstroke, radiation poisoning....

Seems like a low chance if vaccinated and a low chance if not vaccinated. :dunno:

And don't kill me here @SassyLady (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=83) - just copying some of the story over!

Similar with the Hydroxy - hide it from everyone and make a black market for it. Some stories make it sound as if this is solely for animals when it's not. Smaller doses are in fact used for humans. But black market it and make it so doctors can't prescribe, then of course folks will go elsewhere. I have read a few studies and reports showing it to be helpful.



Similar happened with Hydroxy and studies showing it to be effective.

Some people are taking an anti-parasitic to treat COVID. Here’s why that’s a bad idea

Some people itching to get their hands on a COVID-19 cure are putting themselves in danger for taking unprescribed doses of ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug used to treat diseases such as river blindness or scabies in people and prevent heartworm disease and other infestations in animals.

The drug has been flying off the shelves of farm supply stores and veterinary offices as people, mostly those who refuse to get vaccinated, search for unconventional ways out of the pandemic.

Yet, several federal and international health agencies, including the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, the National Institutes of Health and the World Health Organization, have advised against using ivermectin to treat or prevent COVID-19 outside of controlled clinical trials.

That’s because taking large unprescribed doses intended for animals can seriously harm your health.

“Let’s say it was manufactured for a large horse, but a human takes it, it can create low blood pressure, rapid heart rates, seizures; there are even episodes where you can see layers of your skin fall off. It can damage the liver, and there’s vision loss that can be associated,” Dr. Shane Speights, site dean at the New York Institute of Technology College of Osteopathic Medicine, told KAIT8.

“Data is just not good on ivermectin right now for the treatment of COVID. One of the drug manufacturers even said don’t use it,” Speights told the outlet. “Right now, the only answer to COVID is to be fully vaccinated.”

Rest - https://news.yahoo.com/people-taking-anti-parasitic-treat-212701198.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
Because you mentioned me ..

I have a prescription for Ivermectin so I know my dosage is for humans. Got it from a pharmacy not a feed or pet store. My medical professional belongs to a group of doctors on Facebook and the group was banned when they started talking about Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine. That in itself bothers me. People should be able to get both sides of info so they can make informed decisions. It used to be that way. But when the government is working with social media to shut down one side of the debate it is bothersome to me.

And, I don't agree with this statement .. "Right now, the only answer to COVID is to be fully vaccinated.”

Having a healthy immune system is the best way to go.

[fj1200]

Having a healthy immune system is the best way to go.

Individually? Maybe. Collectively? Not so much.

[Gunny]

I'll say again: while the right is fighting over the candy the left has tossed on the floor, the left is stealing the whole candy store. Fighting over a vaccine deflects from the border, election fraud, and an absolutely ridiculous budget.

And I AM going to point a finger. Those who don't care, or got the vaccine have said little, tried to sell nothing, and at most have been pushed into defending their choice with those who don't agree with that choice. On the other hand, this board, and the country is absolutely swamped with those who chose to not get vaccinated trying to disprove/discredit the vaccine. I have yet to see one opinion changed by the :deadhorse:

The only thing I see being accomplished is the Dems buying time until they can get together plans for their next thefts. They're determined to legalize voter fraud. They've just spent more money than they are worth and the only ones on the right doing a damned thing about it are the ones in collusion with them. A few thousand illegals are going to pour across the border today.

No way the Republicans/conservative are going to win jack shit if they can't get it together and focus on what's important instead of latching onto masks, shots and lockdowns and thinking they're holding the line when the line has clearly been moved past those issues by the criminal cabal in DC.

"So in the Libyan fable it is told That once an eagle , stricken with a dart, Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft, "With our own feathers, not by others' hands, Are we now smitten." - Aeschylus

That would be us. SOme people need to get their shit together and figure out what is worth fighting for

[jimnyc]

Because you mentioned me ..

I have a prescription for Ivermectin so I know my dosage is for humans. Got it from a pharmacy not a feed or pet store. My medical professional belongs to a group of doctors on Facebook and the group was banned when they started talking about Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine. That in itself bothers me. People should be able to get both sides of info so they can make informed decisions. It used to be that way. But when the government is working with social media to shut down one side of the debate it is bothersome to me.

And, I don't agree with this statement .. "Right now, the only answer to COVID is to be fully vaccinated.”

Having a healthy immune system is the best way to go.

Just didn't want you to think that section was towards you, SassyLady !! I know it has a lot of use for animals AND also a lot of human use. But right now they only run with the animal and tell people that folks are going nuts using animal medication. :rolleyes:

[SassyLady]

Just didn't want you to think that section was towards you, @SassyLady (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=83) !! I know it has a lot of use for animals AND also a lot of human use. But right now they only run with the animal and tell people that folks are going nuts using animal medication. :rolleyes:

Didn't think you were picking on me .. just responding with the info I have access to.

As for studies ... you're not hearing about them because big tech has censored anything CDC wants them to.

Those in charge of our medical info don't want us to know there are alternatives to the vaccine. It's been proven now that the vax won't keep you from getting the virus .. it just helps alleviate the symptoms. Which is what the ivermectin and hydroxychlorocline will do. They will help with the symptoms if you get the virus.

[SassyLady]

Individually? Maybe. Collectively? Not so much.

Disagree.

If media spent as much time educating people on immune system as they do the covid fear porn it would help collectively.

[fj1200]

Disagree.

If media spent as much time educating people on immune system as they do the covid fear porn it would help collectively.

Yeah... I don't think reality backs that up.

[SassyLady]

I'll say again: while the right is fighting over the candy the left has tossed on the floor, the left is stealing the whole candy store. Fighting over a vaccine deflects from the border, election fraud, and an absolutely ridiculous budget.

And I AM going to point a finger. Those who don't care, or got the vaccine have said little, tried to sell nothing, and at most have been pushed into defending their choice with those who don't agree with that choice. On the other hand, this board, and the country is absolutely swamped with those who chose to not get vaccinated trying to disprove/discredit the vaccine. I have yet to see one opinion changed by the :deadhorse:

The only thing I see being accomplished is the Dems buying time until they can get together plans for their next thefts. They're determined to legalize voter fraud. They've just spent more money than they are worth and the only ones on the right doing a damned thing about it are the ones in collusion with them. A few thousand illegals are going to pour across the border today.

No way the Republicans/conservative are going to win jack shit if they can't get it together and focus on what's important instead of latching onto masks, shots and lockdowns and thinking they're holding the line when the line has clearly been moved past those issues by the criminal cabal in DC.

"So in the Libyan fable it is told That once an eagle , stricken with a dart, Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft, "With our own feathers, not by others' hands, Are we now smitten." - Aeschylus

That would be us. SOme people need to get their shit together and figure out what is worth fighting for
Gunny

I'm fighting for each individual to make their own choices based on as much info as is available. In my opinion that's paramount to freedom.

I think we need to understand that each person made their choice based upon their own circumstances. In the beginning I was posting info to get it out there to help people make their choice. I am not trying to convince anyone what to do.

I really trust my medical professionals and not one of them has told me to get the shot. I might regret it one day but for now I'm OK with my decision.

[Abbey Marie]

Sums it up. For me.

13391

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Disagree.

If media spent as much time educating people on immune system as they do the covid fear porn it would help collectively.

My friend, perhaps many of us would do well to also consider the media has its many cheerleaders, slavishly serving/defending its propaganda.
AS those in the Republican party that fly their false flags so they can sabotage from within- As was so clearing evident with that ffing scum John McCain.
And is now so clearly evident with the ones on the net flying false flags infiltration and doing the best they can to belittle true patriots. The internet has millions of those ffking snakes in the grass.
All one has to do is open their eyes- to see, imho..
Almost every site, has its infiltrated liberal lying scum working to sow discord, destruction, etc..
Many of the ffing scum are quite clever in how they do it...
That from the "snakes in the grass" in conjunction with the rabid censorship of big tech-is insidiously plan to defeat all that are oppose this coming evil and the planned destruction of this nation, imho..

By the way, I checked out your advice on the meds you take in regards to covid protection and I found it to be dead on accurate!!
Thanks!!-Tyr

[revelarts]

Having a healthy immune system is the best way to go.


Individually? Maybe. Collectively? Not so much.

Disagree.
If media spent as much time educating people on immune system as they do the covid fear porn it would help collectively.

Collectively and individually building the best immune system is the best thing for everyone.
I'm not sure how anyone could make a case otherwise.
If grandma's immune system is at it's best, and she's not overweight, and her blood pressure etc is great. That's great for EVERYONE, her family and her neighbors... and the Health Scare system
All infections are met with robust natural defense and often quashed early and quickly and she has natural antibodies to deal with it going forward for years.
win win for everyone.

vaccines might be seen as a collective short cut, or end run, around the fact that to many people are in poor health immunity wise. But it's false to say that a population that collectively improves it's immune system is less of a benefit. It's A FAR MORE well rounded and collectively impactful approach to deal the issue. ALL diseases and ailments will be impacted by a healthier population.

BTW studies in Europe show that it's likely that the reason a few of the northern European countries have had less problems with covid than other nations (even without lockdowns) is it's high intake of vitamin D. Many studies show that people with high levels of Vitamin D in their systems who catch covid recover more often and faster. AND other studies show that OVERALL, the demographics that are medically well known to have LOW vitamin D levels are the most prone to hospitalization and death.

so YES COLLECTIVELY everyone is better off building up/promoting the communities immune system health. It's cheaper and safer and has multiple medical benefits. short and long term.
It's frankly malpractice that the officials haven't been promoting it more.





I'll say again: while the right is fighting over the candy the left has tossed on the floor, the left is stealing the whole candy store. Fighting over a vaccine deflects from the border, election fraud, and an absolutely ridiculous budget.
And I AM going to point a finger. Those who don't care, or got the vaccine have said little, tried to sell nothing, and at most have been pushed into defending their choice with those who don't agree with that choice. On the other hand, this board, and the country is absolutely swamped with those who chose to not get vaccinated trying to disprove/discredit the vaccine. I have yet to see one opinion changed by the :deadhorse:

The only thing I see being accomplished is the Dems buying time until they can get together plans for their next thefts. They're determined to legalize voter fraud. They've just spent more money than they are worth and the only ones on the right doing a damned thing about it are the ones in collusion with them. A few thousand illegals are going to pour across the border today.
No way the Republicans/conservative are going to win jack shit if they can't get it together and focus on what's important instead of latching onto masks, shots and lockdowns and thinking they're holding the line when the line has clearly been moved past those issues by the criminal cabal in DC.
"So in the Libyan fable it is told That once an eagle , stricken with a dart, Said, when he saw the fashion of the shaft, "With our own feathers, not by others' hands, Are we now smitten." - Aeschylus
That would be us. SOme people need to get their shit together and figure out what is worth fighting for

I understand the sentiment.
however, as with other "emergencies" in the past. The vaccine issue is another place where legal and social lines are being crossed that people assumed gov't and society had no right to.
Gov't and Biz promoting experimental vaccines is one thing, OK that's fine.
But the Gov't and biz mandating and blackmailing people to take experimental vaccines. That's taking away a personal freedom as much as taking away the right to own a gun.
It's not just "candy"
I know in joining military soldiers sign away many rights including some rights NOT to be injected with various drugs. And the coercion level to OBEY is high, but "civilians" have given up no such rights.
"My Body my Right" is Absolutely true when it comes to taking drugs.
Neither your neighbors, the gov't, or your job has a right to compel us to take drugs.
Not in a "free country"
As i said, it's another loss of a freedom in the name of an over-hyped FEAR.
Terrorist are going to get us all! FEAR! we MUST Torture, spy on citizens, jail without trial, war without congress. NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK... EVER! And you clearly HATE America if you don't agree.
Covid-19 is going to get us all ...or at least granma! FEAR! So we all MUST, cover our faces, take the gov't/pharma experimental drugs, and NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE.
NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK... EVER! And you clearly HATE Grandma if you don't agree.

it's another BS game being played on the public, another precedent set for a "NEW -less free- NORMAL" where people are now expected to "stay home on gov't command, and take drugs on gov't or company command.
Sound like freedom to you?
It's just for this "emergency" you say?

After the the 1918 flu that killed FAR more people, they did REALLY go back to normal. Does anyone really expect the gov't and big pharma to back off on pushing drugs and rules for the collective good? And that they will stop squelching factual rebuttals from getting public ear without a fight?


Dealing with Voting issue and vaccine and lockdown mandates is not an Either/OR question.
And I'll say it again (and let it fall on deaf ears again?) IT NOT ABOUT THE LEFT AND RIGHT.
it's about authoritarians verses constitutional God Given freedoms.

If the right does it or the left that's where the battle lies.
If people have a FREE Choice. Fine, but when the gov't and/or Big/near monpoly Biz Says it's this way or the HIGHWAY then it's Authoritarian BS.
call it Fascism! or Communism!, or Totalitarianism or technocracy ...whatever.
I don't care what label you put on it or what FEAR BASED excuse is used to promote it, "National Security!!!" :eek: or "National Health!!!":eek: It's Anti Freedom anti-constitutional BS that needs to be addressed.

By people from the left and right IDEALLY.
Because the Elites of BOTH "sides" aren't Masking, Locking down, Stopping their travels, Stopping their gatherings, Stopping their shopping, Stopping their Hair appointments, or taking ANY drugs they don't want to.

It's the middle to lower classes that are being played... again.... supposedly "for your safety.. and America".:saluting2:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Collectively and individually building the best immune system is the best thing for everyone.
I'm not sure how anyone could make a case otherwise.
If grandma's immune system is at it's best, and she's not overweight, and her blood pressure etc is great. That's great for EVERYONE, her family and her neighbors... and the Health Scare system
All infections are met with robust natural defense and often quashed early and quickly and she has natural antibodies to deal with it going forward for years.
win win for everyone.

vaccines might be seen as a collective short cut, or end run, around the fact that to many people are in poor health immunity wise. But it's false to say that a population that collectively improves it's immune system is less of a benefit. It's A FAR MORE well rounded and collectively impactful approach to deal the issue. ALL diseases and ailments will be impacted by a healthier population.

BTW studies in Europe show that it's likely that the reason a few of the northern European countries have had less problems with covid than other nations (even without lockdowns) is it's high intake of vitamin D. Many studies show that people with high levels of Vitamin D in their systems who catch covid recover more often and faster. AND other studies show that OVERALL, the demographics that are medically well known to have LOW vitamin D levels are the most prone to hospitalization and death.

so YES COLLECTIVELY everyone is better off building up/promoting the communities immune system health. It's cheaper and safer and has multiple medical benefits. short and long term.
It's frankly malpractice that the officials haven't been promoting it more.






I understand the sentiment.
however, as with other "emergencies" in the past. The vaccine issue is another place where legal and social lines are being crossed that people assumed gov't and society had no right to.
Gov't and Biz promoting experimental vaccines is one thing, OK that's fine.
But the Gov't and biz mandating and blackmailing people to take experimental vaccines. That's taking away a personal freedom as much as taking away the right to own a gun.
It's not just "candy"
I know in joining military soldiers sign away many rights including some rights NOT to be injected with various drugs. And the coercion level to OBEY is high, but "civilians" have given up no such rights.
"My Body my Right" is Absolutely true when it comes to taking drugs.
Neither your neighbors, the gov't, or your job has a right to compel us to take drugs.
Not in a "free country"
As i said, it's another loss of a freedom in the name of an over-hyped FEAR.
Terrorist are going to get us all! FEAR! we MUST Torture, spy on citizens, jail without trial, war without congress. NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK... EVER! And you clearly HATE America if you don't agree.
Covid-19 is going to get us all ...or at least granma! FEAR! So we all MUST, cover our faces, take the gov't/pharma experimental drugs, and NEVER LEAVE THE HOUSE.
NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK... EVER! And you clearly HATE Grandma if you don't agree.

it's another BS game being played on the public, another precedent set for a "NEW -less free- NORMAL" where people are now expected to "stay home on gov't command, and take drugs on gov't or company command.
Sound like freedom to you?
It's just for this "emergency" you say?

After the the 1918 flu that killed FAR more people, they did REALLY go back to normal. Does anyone really expect the gov't and big pharma to back off on pushing drugs and rules for the collective good? And that they will stop squelching factual rebuttals from getting public ear without a fight?


It's not an Either or fight.
and I'll say it again (and let it fall on deaf ears again) IT NOT ABOUT THE LEFT AND RIGHT.
it's about authoritarians verse freddom.

If the right does it or the left that's where the battle lies.
If people have a FREE Choice. Fine when the gov't and/or Big Biz Says it's this way or the HIGHWAY then it's Authoritarian BS.
call it Fascism! or Communism!, or Totalitarianism or technocracy BOTTOM LINE.
I don't care what label you put on it or what FEAR BASED excuse is used to promote it "national security" or "National Health" It's Anti Freedom anti-constitutional BS that need to be addressed.

By people from the left and right IDEALLY.
Because the Elites of BOTH "sides" aren't Masking, Locking down, Stopping their travels, Stopping their gatherings, Stopping their shopping, Stopping their Hair appointments, or taking ANY drugs they don't want to.

It's the middle to lower classes that are being played... again.... "for your safety.. and America".:saluting2:

Bravo! Well stated and so very true.
Government under the idiot and corrupted stooge Biden is now engaged in a forceful effort to make every citizen give up rights.
In this case- make every citizen-- submit their right to life and join in this this scam-demic and government agenda to be stabbed with an experimental concoction.
One that has already caused death, serious injuries to tens of thousands and quite possibly far , far more than even that staggering number!
We civilians are not military...
Although seems the treasonous dem tyrants, WANT TO PUSH US INTO DECOMING SUCH TO DEFEND OUR VERY LIVES AND LIVES OF OUR BELOVED CHILDREN!!
Dems-must be taught we are not ffing slaves, imho..
Slaves that those filthy bastards want us all to become.
I speak the plain unvarnished and absolute truth of it...
And I simply do not give A DAMN WHO DOES NOT LIKE THAT....-- :salute:----Tyr

[revelarts]

Sums it up. For me.

13391



I agree.
the problem is that one side wants to FORCE everyone to get vaccines, fire people from jobs, keep people from school, shut down some biz, refuse entrance into biz, refuse travel, etc to those who refuse the vaccine.
And Not allow information about alternative options to even be discussed.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Sums it up. For me.

13391

My friend , my stand agrees with that.
Let each person decide to either take the vaccine or else not take it....
The problem is the dems and government are saying nobody has the right to refuse.
I do not vilify any that decided to take the vaccine. For each person has that right to say yes or say no..
If one is in a compromising health state-their decision to take the vaccine is absolutely right for then- NO MATTER WHO THINKS IT IS A WRONG CHOICE...
However, I do so adamantly vilify government and its tyrant decrees and those that cheer its tyrannical decrees.
As those that support its so-called right to force us to be a part of its experiment!
And be a part of its dark and nefarious agenda behind its ever reaching , ever grabbing more and more power over us all.
Fact is- we can not remain totally silent-- as silence to them and the world is judged to be submission and agreement with their unconstitutional agenda and unlawful edicts.
The government has to be opposed as it is engaging in unconstitutional actions and deliberately working towards a future dictatorship.
And that is a reality- that is indeed the treason(treason- not politics) the dems are now spearheading and also being applauded by people that are indeed blinded, imho...- :salute:--Tyr

[revelarts]

Here's a chart where folks took a poll of the left and right on what they THOUGHT the Covid death rate was for various ages.
NEXT TO the actual death rates.

https://i2.wp.com/www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/rothwell_covidinfo_fig1-01.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C9999px&ssl=1
Quote:


...The U.S. public is also deeply misinformed about the severity of the virus for the average infected person. In December, we asked, “What percentage of people who have been infected by the coronavirus needed to be hospitalized?”
The correct answer is not precisely known, but it is highly likely to be between 1% and 5% according to the best available estimates, and it is unlikely to be much higher or lower. We discuss the data and logic behind this conclusion in the appendix.
Less than one in five U.S. adults (18%) give a correct answer of between 1 and 5%. Many adults (35%) say that at least half (50%) of infected people need hospitalization. If that were true, the millions of resulting patients would have overwhelmed hospitals throughout the pandemic.
Democrats are much more likely than Republicans to overestimate this harm. Forty-one percent of Democrats and 28% of Republicans answered that half or more of those infected by COVID-19 need to be hospitalized. Republicans were also far more likely to get the correct answer, with 26% correctly identifying the risk compared to just 10% of Democrats....
https://www.brookings.edu/research/h...and-behaviors/ (https://www.brookings.edu/research/how-misinformation-is-distorting-covid-policies-and-behaviors/)





Seems everyone is a bit off thinking that it's worse than it is.
What everyone "knows" is not based on all the facts available.
Too often It's based on fear ginned up and over hyped by the media.

But looking at these 2 bits of data ....that we've had since early on in the "pandemic".... That most death are in those over 65 with other conditions and less than 5% are hospitalized. over like 95% RECOVER.
I don't see how this is a BLACK and WHITE issue that makes it obvious that EVERYONE to get vaccinated.
Seems we don’t need to ”trust” the institutions. All they have to do is SHOW US the risk, which they have.
And the risk for people UNDER 65 is EXTREMELY LOW. But for people above that, they have the right and option to get a vaccine, even an experimental one if they chose. OR alternatively use whatever methods they or their doctors choose.
I’m not sure why some officials and the media would consider taking the experimental drugs as imperative.
Or think that the whole world MUST move as ONE to deal with this new disease.
Or that there’s absolute medical certainty as to what the treatments MUST be after One Year into this NEW disease.
As if there’s only ONE way to deal with a problem.
Isn’t that “fundamentalist” thinking?
Could it be possible that there’s MORE than one way to skin a cat?

As real as the deaths are it seems that protecting the elderly, by their quarantine and various methods of medical attention would be imperative and a civic duty. AND making sure the surrounding economic and educationally infrastructure around them is still up and running. But to pretend that universal vaccination is the THE remedy makes no sense to me BASED on the REAL data and real risk .
And the UNKNOWN long term collective fallout of the experimental vaccines on younger (under 60) people.

Reasonable people can disagree. But when people start talking about FORCING other to inject drugs into their bodies "OR ELSE",
seems to me the ones doing the forcing probably don't have enough facts to make their case
and/or their fears and "beliefs" have become irrational.

Because the data simply does not support Universal Vaccines.
OR vaccines (mask & lockdowns) as the ONLY remedy.

[jimnyc]

Sums it up. For me.


I started writing about it yesterday. Things are simply not the same for everyone. Everyone taking the vaccine cannot be some form of gullible bad guy. Not everyone refusing the vaccine is going to then get sick and spread things.

First and foremost, folks will be and should be making decisions in the best interest of their health and family health and best interest. So many different things come into play and this isn't something black and white. We are not "sheep" because we chose to get a vaccine or that I wear a mask.

Many folks chose NOT to get a vaccine for their own health reasons or that of family. Not everyone who didn't get a shot is somehow a bad person or being selfish or an enemy.

There is no doubt that the entire blame game and "get the other side" is in action.

One should 100% absolutely have a guaranteed right to get this vaccine if they choose to. One should 100% absolutely have that same guaranteed right to NOT get this vaccine. The same should apply to wearing masks - unless you're going into someone else's owned business as then you go by whatever their rules are or choose a different establishment.


I agree.
the problem is that one side wants to FORCE everyone to get vaccines, fire people from jobs, keep people from school, shut down some biz, refuse entrance into biz, refuse travel, etc to those who refuse the vaccine.
And Not allow information about alternative options to even be discussed.

No one should be forced into anything, IMO. The only jobs should be those like hospitals where compromised people may have no alternative but to go to.

Way too much mandate BS going on. There used to always be places that can make a decision, and then patrons a decision on top of those. But now the government wants to mandate everything and make that decision for everyone.

And the free speech is HUGE to me. Now you cannot even talk about things on youtube with a differing opinion, and other places. Same goes with MSM and getting condemned.


My friend , my stand agrees with that.
Let each person decide to either take the vaccine or else not take it....
The problem is the dems and government are saying nobody has the right to refuse.
I do not vilify any that decided to take the vaccine. For each person has that right to say yes or say no..
If one is in a compromising health state-their decision to take the vaccine is absolutely right for then- NO MATTER WHO THINKS IT IS A WRONG CHOICE...
However, I do so adamantly vilify government and its tyrant decrees and those that cheer its tyrannical decrees.
As those that support its so-called right to force us to be a part of its experiment!
And be a part of its dark and nefarious agenda behind its ever reaching , ever grabbing more and more power over us all.
Fact is- we can not remain totally silent-- as silence to them and the world is judged to be submission and agreement with their unconstitutional agenda and unlawful edicts.
The government has to be opposed as it is engaging in unconstitutional actions and deliberately working towards a future dictatorship.
And that is a reality- that is indeed the treason(treason- not politics) the dems are now spearheading and also being applauded by people that are indeed blinded, imho...- :salute:--Tyr

You and I, and others here, have been of the 'live and let live' stance from the beginning. :thumb:

[tailfins]

Toward me? No. You're a passive aggressive coward against naysayers and anyone you can't shout down. You don't want the vaccine then don't get the vaccine. You're very free to ignore all the evidence that you want, good, bad, or otherwise, and inject another mindless rant into the 50th* thread where you can talk as tough as you want. Each time I see it though I chalk it up to another level of ignorant ravings.



*Taking a wild guess.

Señor, you don't seem to know how a true passive-aggressive operates. Mr. Tyr isn't subtle enough to be passive-aggressive. He has the luxury to not worry about the passive part since he is retired. For your viewing pleasure, consider Joshua Fluke's portrayal of passive-aggressive. Those who are successful in such displays get people to do things such as this:


https://youtu.be/gE9bFLKvhK4?t=8


This is REAL passive-aggressive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySs2zM_MUzo

[fj1200]

Señor, you don't seem to know how a true passive-aggressive operates. Mr. Tyr isn't subtle enough to be passive-aggressive. He has the luxury to not worry about the passive part since he is retired. For your viewing pleasure, consider Joshua Fluke's portrayal of passive-aggressive. Those who are successful in such displays get people to do things such as this:

He passively aggressively talks about some posters to other posters. Such bravery is astounding.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He passively aggressively talks about some posters to other posters. Such bravery is astounding.

Idiot. There is not a single thing that I have ever said to you or about you that I would not be more than happppppppppppppppy to say to you face to face.
Your saving grace is -- that will never happen because what is true is that cowardly lying worms like you can never back up their words.
I spent years dealing with worms like you in bars and my time as a bouncer in two different clubs. plus a free service I provided to my dear Owen when he had his tavern years ago in the 90's, before he passed on.
So dont take about courage moron , I did all of that work for free , for almost 6 years. It was fun....--Tyr

[revelarts]

The main argument floating around of course is the vaccine and whether folks should be getting it or not.

Does it help? Does it not help? Is it worth taking? It's a personal choice, IMO, and the statistics seem to be 'missing' - just like when the government said the Vaers database was inaccurate at the moment, of which it was in fact. But I still haven't seen an appropriate update since.

The good news, somewhat, if you will about those taking the vaccination:

164 million folks vaccinated.





Rest - https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/health-departments/breakthrough-cases.html


But I do not trust the CDC much anymore. I do not trust WHO anymore. I certainly don't trust Anthony Fauci. I definitely don't trust anything coming from this administration. I would never gather my information from any single one of those places.

That said - just as the numbers are really very very low to begin with. and the odds of croaking are also extremely low. The death rate is very low. Now if you're very old, and maybe also in a crappy nursing home, then worry a little maybe. 80 years old and above is still only in the 2% range and literally drops dramatically and then some when you hit 70 and lower and then even more so for 60-50. Myself in the 50 year old range equates to .007%.

You have a better chance of dying from suicide, overdose, falling down, gun crime, choking, sunstroke, radiation poisoning....

Seems like a low chance if vaccinated and a low chance if not vaccinated. :dunno:

...
...
Rest - https://news.yahoo.com/people-taking-anti-parasitic-treat-212701198.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Exactly right the chances are low no matter what you do.

here's a Chart that the CDC put out that's very misleading in this regard.
CBS news and other have also used it to promote the idea that the vaccinated are doing so much better than those who are not.

https://www.poynter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/4cdcrisk.png


When i looked at this chart I realized something.
I used to work at a newspaper, and I've done graphs and charts before.
the CDC's Chart, I have to say, INTENTIONALLY skews the overall picture.

I unartistically recreated the chart with the SAME DATA but so that ALL the data in the chart appears together.

this is what you get.
http://1000words.fatcow.com/box8/covidchartrevisedfortruth2021.png

So if the Data presented is true, when seen All together the most anyone can say about the vaccine is that it seems to prevent infection.
It does nothing significant to prevent hospitalizations or deaths.
Since the GETTING Covid-19 does not seem to put many in the hospital and is NOT that deadly.
(BTW can we honestly attribute the slightly fewer numbers of deaths to the vaccines? correlation causation?)

Why can't the media and politicians and official medical professionals simply be honest about it?
rather than present this low grade propaganda to try to FEAR people into getting experimental vaccines that seems to be barely useful.

It's charts like the one from the CDC and hyped in the media which know better that make me MORE suspicious and LESS likely to believe the hype and less likely to take the vaccine.

"pandemic of the unvaccinated"
really?

[revelarts]

And Looks like Faucii and the head of CDC were lying about the % of deaths are in the vaccinated.
CDC's Own Data Shows 15% of In-Hospital CV Deaths in May Were Among Vaccinated Patients, Not 'Under 1%' As Officials Claimed

https://www.informationliberation.com/files/cdc-data-15-percent-2021.jpg


Quote:


FAUCI: "99.5 percent of the deaths, in the United States, are among unvaccinated people, and 0.5 percent are among vaccinated people. Boy, if there ever was a statistic that would stimulate someone to get vaccinated, I think this one is it."
— Ryan Struyk (@ryanstruyk) July 28, 2021


"Murthy said 99.5 percent of the deaths from COVID-19 right now in the U.S. are individuals who are not inoculated."

Be smart people - get vaccinated!
Surgeon general: 'I am worried about what is to come' - https://t.co/wEUC95UKLL
— Amy Siskind (@Amy_Siskind) July 18, 2021


Rochelle Walensky, director of the CDC "said that in states with low vaccination rates more than 99 percent of covid-19 deaths over the past six months were among unvaccinated people."


Opinion | The two numbers that could get people to take the vaccine https://t.co/LL5mWfX5iU
— Rodger A. Payne (@RodgerPayne) July 28, 2021


1/ THOSE LYING LIARS. While @cdcgov @Surgeon_General and Fauci all said 99% of #COVID deaths were happening in the unvaccinated THEIR OWN DATA FROM HOSPITALS SHOWED THAT IN MAY 15% OF DEATHS WERE IN VACCINATED PEOPLE.

This is a CDC document @washingtonpost has published… pic.twitter.com/6D636zabHR
— Alex Berenson (@AlexBerenson) July 30, 2021


2/ But wait, it gets WORSE.

May's rate was five times (yes, 5x!) April's. The slide no has no June number, but the public state data suggests June was even higher.

Further, Delta was not a significant issue in May - suggesting the problem has nothing to do with Delta.
— Alex Berenson (@AlexBerenson) July 30, 2021


3/ Further, yet another slide suggests efficacy in nursing homes is in the 65-75% range (this is what the Danish study suggested).

SOURCE: https://t.co/ip68CSQIf0
— Alex Berenson (@AlexBerenson) July 30, 2021


Israel, Iceland and other highly-vaxxed nations are all rushing to lock down a second time and rush out boosters but our public health "authorities" and Biden himself have spent the last two weeks claiming the "vaccines" are 99.5% to 100% effective.

.@POTUS: “We have a pandemic for those who haven’t gotten a vaccination…If you're vaccinated, you're not going to be hospitalized…you're not going to die. So, it's gigantically important we all act like Americans who care about our fellow Americans.”pic.twitter.com/cpsvzfXENn

https://www.informationliberation.com/?id=62420

And these are lies that folks catch them in.
Faucii is worse than a used car salesman.

[tailfins]

Idiot. There is not a single thing that I have ever said to you or about you that I would not be more than happppppppppppppppy to say to you face to face.
Your saving grace is -- that will never happen because what is true is that cowardly lying worms like you can never back up their words.
I spent years dealing with worms like you in bars and my time as a bouncer in two different clubs. plus a free service I provided to my dear Owen when he had his tavern years ago in the 90's, before he passed on.
So dont take about courage moron , I did all of that work for free , for almost 6 years. It was fun....--Tyr

Generally, working for free is simping unless it's done post-retirement to mitigate boredom.

[fj1200]

Idiot. There is not a single thing that I have ever said to you or about you that I would not be more than happppppppppppppppy to say to you face to face.
Your saving grace is -- that will never happen because what is true is that cowardly lying worms like you can never back up their words.
I spent years dealing with worms like you in bars and my time as a bouncer in two different clubs. plus a free service I provided to my dear Owen when he had his tavern years ago in the 90's, before he passed on.
So dont take about courage moron , I did all of that work for free , for almost 6 years. It was fun....--Tyr

You don't apparently understand the words being used. You're not even typing in response to me, your typing to others in response; hence passive aggressive. Besides, your nice little story above only confirms what I already know, that you can't handle anything you can't shout down.

As an afterthought, I haven't lied about anything yet you're being led around by your active imagination. I also am not sure what words I need to back up, this is a debate site and I don't get into threatening little hissy fits like you do. So if you want to back up your own lying words you can tell me what I've lied about. Be specific please or more likely slink away like your absent pal when asked to justify his bluster.

[fj1200]

Exactly right the chances are low no matter what you do.

here's a Chart that the CDC put out that's very misleading in this regard.
CBS news and other have also used it to promote the idea that the vaccinated are doing so much better than those who are not.




When i looked at this chart I realized something.
I used to work at a newspaper, and I've done graphs and charts before.
the CDC's Chart, I have to say, INTENTIONALLY skews the overall picture.

I unartistically recreated the chart with the SAME DATA but so that ALL the data in the chart appears together.

this is what you get.


So if the Data presented is true, when seen All together the most anyone can say about the vaccine is that it seems to prevent infection.
It does nothing significant to prevent hospitalizations or deaths.
Since the GETTING Covid-19 does not seem to put many in the hospital and is NOT that deadly.
(BTW can we honestly attribute the slightly fewer numbers of deaths to the vaccines? correlation causation?)

Why can't the media and politicians and official medical professionals simply be honest about it?
rather than present this low grade propaganda to try to FEAR people into getting experimental vaccines that seems to be barely useful.

It's charts like the one from the CDC and hyped in the media which know better that make me MORE suspicious and LESS likely to believe the hype and less likely to take the vaccine.

"pandemic of the unvaccinated"
really?

I'm not sure reworking the graphs tells the story that you want to tell. If you're trying to say the vaccine is ineffective I don't think that follows. If you're trying to say it's not effective enough to be worth it then I'm still not sure that follows from the data. If you're trying to say the messaging from the government is awful... Well I won't disagree with that.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Señor, you don't seem to know how a true passive-aggressive operates. Mr. Tyr isn't subtle enough to be passive-aggressive. He has the luxury to not worry about the passive part since he is retired. For your viewing pleasure, consider Joshua Fluke's portrayal of passive-aggressive. Those who are successful in such displays get people to do things such as this:


https://youtu.be/gE9bFLKvhK4?t=8


This is REAL passive-aggressive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySs2zM_MUzo

I make a pleasant habit of not being subtle, some worms hate that about me, And I have rarely ever been called --"passive" what a joke some idiots dream up.
Since my standard stage is --sword sharpened to a razor sharp, keen edge and always ready to quite happily see it polished with that bright and flowing red liquid dripping.
I've been that way since age 15, that is 52 do or die years and still counting.
Some fools are proud of distance and the very, very comforting ability to hide away.
All that pride melts away like a lightening strike when they ever meet face to face.
Tis why the internet is plagued with so damn many of the ffing lying vermin, imho..-Tyr

[fj1200]

Collectively and individually building the best immune system is the best thing for everyone.
I'm not sure how anyone could make a case otherwise.
If grandma's immune system is at it's best, and she's not overweight, and her blood pressure etc is great. That's great for EVERYONE, her family and her neighbors... and the Health Scare system
All infections are met with robust natural defense and often quashed early and quickly and she has natural antibodies to deal with it going forward for years.
win win for everyone.

vaccines might be seen as a collective short cut, or end run, around the fact that to many people are in poor health immunity wise. But it's false to say that a population that collectively improves it's immune system is less of a benefit. It's A FAR MORE well rounded and collectively impactful approach to deal the issue. ALL diseases and ailments will be impacted by a healthier population.

BTW studies in Europe show that it's likely that the reason a few of the northern European countries have had less problems with covid than other nations (even without lockdowns) is it's high intake of vitamin D. Many studies show that people with high levels of Vitamin D in their systems who catch covid recover more often and faster. AND other studies show that OVERALL, the demographics that are medically well known to have LOW vitamin D levels are the most prone to hospitalization and death.

so YES COLLECTIVELY everyone is better off building up/promoting the communities immune system health. It's cheaper and safer and has multiple medical benefits. short and long term.
It's frankly malpractice that the officials haven't been promoting it more.

I think that goes without saying but we've many fat and/or old people in this country who are not in any way going to be able to build up their immune system to be able to fight it.

I'm merely saying this is an option, a seemingly effective option, that doesn't stand up to all the conspiracy driven paranoia surrounding it.

[SassyLady]

I think that goes without saying but we've many fat and/or old people in this country who are not in any way going to be able to build up their immune system to be able to fight it.

I'm merely saying this is an option, a seemingly effective option, that doesn't stand up to all the conspiracy driven paranoia surrounding it.

So, you want people with a healthy immune system get a shot because other people don't have a good immune system?

Not my responsibility and I will not be shamed into believing that.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So, you want people with a healthy immune system get a shot because other people don't have a good immune system?

Not my responsibility and I will not be shamed into believing that.
I suspect he like so many others wants to follow the dem agenda whenever he can slip it in and still keep his false flag going. Tyr

[fj1200]

So, you want people with a healthy immune system get a shot because other people don't have a good immune system?

Not my responsibility and I will not be shamed into believing that.

Golly, not what I said at all.

[fj1200]

I suspect he like so many others wants to follow the dem agenda whenever he can slip it in and still keep his false flag going. Tyr

You've pretty much proven what I've said and failed to point out any of my lies. Thanks for the affirmation.

[revelarts]

I'm not sure reworking the graphs tells the story that you want to tell. If you're trying to say the vaccine is ineffective I don't think that follows.
Hmm. OK. does it follow... based on the data... that the vaccine is SO effective that it will make HUGE ... or even a 25% or 25 FOLD... reduction in hospitalizations and deaths?
seems clear to me that it does not.
And deaths and hospitalizations are what everyone is really concerned about. We don't want people dying or extremely sick.
And the honest version of the chart seems to make it CLEAR that the vaccines are NOT doing that.
And scientifically speaking the chart does not make it clear that what's makes the small difference in deaths per hundred thousand is IN FACT the vaccine.

The actually numbers of people work out to 40 people dying out of 100,000 who got the vaccine, compared to 960 people out of the 100,000 who were not vaccinated.
And looking at the rate of infection it seems VERY clear that having VERY large numbers of infected does NOT translate into large numbers of deaths. Even without the vaccine.

Completely ineffective? maybe not. Very effective? no. Marginally effective? maybe.


If you're trying to say it's not effective enough to be worth it then I'm still not sure that follows from the data.
people can make their own determination HOW MUCH risk they are willing to take. Some people like to play it super safe and will gladly take the short term apparent .92% less chance of death by individual/mass vaccinations. And along with that ASSUME the various vaccines will carry ZERO serious long term negatives or deaths.

But when i compare potential risk of covid-19 death to the unknown risk of experimental vaccine issues I don't see the .92% bump shown in this chart as significant enough. Especially since 98+% of all people who get covid recover... with natural antibodies that likely last a lifetime.

Bottom line the vaccine promoters seem to be OVER SELLING the product by a HUGE margin FJ.
If it were a stock would you put all your money into it? And tell your family to do the same? It's a New product/stock launch, unknown long term gains or losses, other similar stocks have crashed and burned.
And alternatives are available that seem similar in returns, safer buys, been bringing in revenue for 40 and 100 years?


If you're trying to say the messaging from the government is awful... Well I won't disagree with that.

Awful is one thing.
But deliberately misleading is another. At a glance the CDC chart makes looks like the vaccine has saved hundreds of thousands of lives. It's a FALSE impression. Then it put's a misleading point on it by saying that vaccine causes a "25 FOLD reduction" in deaths etc.. It's a falsehood.
This is the same kind of BS double speak the gov't uses when it talks about "Budget CUTS" when it really means it was RAISED LESS than some previous version of the budget. With politicians and U.S. budget office sadly we've come to expect this kind of BSery, this type of deception, but this is the CDC. They are supposedly trying to help keep us healthy and honestly informed. But they are frankly lying FJ.

As stated earlier the real numbers of deaths are 40 compared to 960... out of 100,000. In what world is that a "25 FOLD" reduction FJ?
The people are real and each death is a tragic horror show, but factually and statistically speaking are CDC are lying (and the MSM repeaters who have staff that can see through the BS just as well as I) and the vaccine is no where near as effective as advertised.

That's what the chart tells me.
Am i misreading it in some way. Can you honestly say that the vaccines look EXTREMELY effective in saving lives and preventing hospitalizations? So much so that they deserve the hype they've been given?

[fj1200]

Hmm. OK. does it follow... based on the data... that the vaccine is SO effective that it will make HUGE ... or even a 25% or 25 FOLD... reduction in hospitalizations and deaths?
seems clear to me that it does not.
And deaths and hospitalizations are what everyone is really concerned about. We don't want people dying or extremely sick.
And the honest version of the chart seems to make it CLEAR that the vaccines are NOT doing that.
And scientifically speaking the chart does not make it clear that what's makes the small difference in deaths per hundred thousand is IN FACT the vaccine.

The actually numbers of people work out to 40 people dying out of 100,000 who got the vaccine, compared to 960 people out of the 100,000 who were not vaccinated.
And looking at the rate of infection it seems VERY clear that having VERY large numbers of infected does NOT translate into large numbers of deaths. Even without the vaccine.

Completely ineffective? maybe not. Very effective? no. Marginally effective? maybe.

How does it not based on the graphs provided? Reworking the graphs doesn't change the point. Your graph may show the relative difference between infection, hospitalization, and death but the original graph proves? the claim that there are lower instances of each. They didn't use fake numbers unless you're alleging that as well.


people can make their own determination HOW MUCH risk they are willing to take. Some people like to play it super safe and will gladly take the short term apparent .92% less chance of death by individual/mass vaccinations. And along with that ASSUME the various vaccines will carry ZERO serious long term negatives or deaths.

But when i compare potential risk of covid-19 death to the unknown risk of experimental vaccine issues I don't see the .92% bump shown in this chart as significant enough. Especially since 98+% of all people who get covid recover... with natural antibodies that likely last a lifetime.

Bottom line the vaccine promoters seem to be OVER SELLING the product by a HUGE margin FJ.
If it were a stock would you put all your money into it? And tell your family to do the same? It's a New product/stock launch, unknown long term gains or losses, other similar stocks have crashed and burned.
And alternatives are available that seem similar in returns, safer buys, been bringing in revenue for 40 and 100 years?

So when the EUA ends and it's fully approved will much of the resistance melt away? From how I see it there is far less risk in getting the vaccine than not and every thread that's been started recently, and there have been a lot, :eek: you'd think it's going to be a self induced apocalypse.

Is it being oversold? I surely know it's being sold hard but the resistance from the other side has been moreso. Hanging arguments on miniscule fine print in studies, etc. used in vaccine research for example. The examples have been less than impressive IMO.

I agree that people can make their own choices but some of the arguments are ridiculous.


Awful is one thing.
But deliberately misleading is another. At a glance the CDC chart makes looks like the vaccine has saved hundreds of thousands of lives. It's a FALSE impression. Then it put's a misleading point on it by saying that vaccine causes a "25 FOLD reduction" in deaths etc.. It's a falsehood.
This is the same kind of BS double speak the gov't uses when it talks about "Budget CUTS" when it really means it was RAISED LESS than some previous version of the budget. With politicians and U.S. budget office sadly we've come to expect this kind of BSery, this type of deception, but this is the CDC. They are supposedly trying to help keep us healthy and honestly informed. But they are frankly lying FJ.

As stated earlier the real numbers of deaths are 40 compared to 960... out of 100,000. In what world is that a "25 FOLD" reduction FJ?
The people are real and each death is a tragic horror show, but factually and statistically speaking CDC are lying (and the MSM repeaters who have staff that can see though the BS just as well as I) and the vaccine is no where near as effective as advertised.

That's what the chart tells me.
Am i misreading it in some way. Can you honestly say that the vaccines look EXTREMELY effective in saving lives and preventing hospitalizations? So much so that they deserve the hype they've been given?

Reworking numbers doesn't create validation of what you see as a falsehood. But yes, I think we're better off with them.

But to dispel my apparent shill cred :rolleyes: if you want the vaccine, get the vaccine. If you don't want the vaccine, don't get the vaccine. Make your choices.

[revelarts]

How does it not based on the graphs provided? Reworking the graphs doesn't change the point. Your graph may show the relative difference between infection, hospitalization, and death but the original graph proves? the claim that there are lower instances of each. They didn't use fake numbers unless you're alleging that as well.



So when the EUA ends and it's fully approved will much of the resistance melt away? From how I see it there is far less risk in getting the vaccine than not and every thread that's been started recently, and there have been a lot, :eek: you'd think it's going to be a self induced apocalypse.

Is it being oversold? I surely know it's being sold hard but the resistance from the other side has been moreso. Hanging arguments on miniscule fine print in studies, etc. used in vaccine research for example. The examples have been less than impressive IMO.

I agree that people can make their own choices but some of the arguments are ridiculous.



Reworking numbers doesn't create validation of what you see as a falsehood. But yes, I think we're better off with them.

But to dispel my apparent shill cred :rolleyes: if you want the vaccine, get the vaccine. If you don't want the vaccine, don't get the vaccine. Make your choices.
1st of all I didn't "rework numbers" i just put them in their FULL context. All of the numbers together. And did not isolate them for a false effect.

But you didn't really answer my questions.
And my point wasn't that they used false numbers they simply made them look "25 fold" BETTER than they actually are.
That is a LIE.
Looking at anything under a good magnifying glass makes it LOOK bigger. Not clearly saying that it is not really that big is a Lie.

As stated earlier the real numbers of deaths are 40 compared to 960... out of 100,000. In what world is that a "25 FOLD" reduction FJ?

But Ok FJ, you think the vaccines make a big difference, Could you please tell me what numbers in that CDC chart give you that impression?

[revelarts]

I think that goes without saying but we've many fat and/or old people in this country who are not in any way going to be able to build up their immune system to be able to fight it.
I'm merely saying this is an option, a seemingly effective option, that doesn't stand up to all the conspiracy driven paranoia surrounding it.

Well my concerns aren't conspiracy driven. they are FACT based.
the basic facts are that the vaccines do not seem to be that effective at stopping deaths. And the long term effects are completely unknown. And based on the demographics of disease I'm not in the most high risk range of dying from covid-19. A less than 95+% chance.

I'm not sure what paranoid conspiracies you think are driving people away.

I'll will say this though, seems like every month we find that the "officials", U.S. and abroad, are caught in some lie, misrepresentation, backtracking double-talk or extreme miscalculation. And are aided in the squelching of unwanted facts and voices by their friends in the MSM and Social Media. How many times does this have to happen before it's OK for reasonable people start to ask if the official info really is trust worthy?
It's made me FAR MORE suspicious of the motives and possible other agendas than I was at the beginning of the pandemic. So now i've got a lot more reasons NOT to trust the official narratives until I take a 2nd, 3rd and 4th look.

And c'mon FJ, who's really been pumping up paranoia surrounding covid-19? It's The MSM, they have been on a year plus Orgy of FEAR Mongering about covid-19. With Death Counts! Infection counts! Hospitals are OVERFLOWING! (but they're mostly not), Hundreds of gut wrenching Interviews with families of the deceased, Daily updates on various "OUTBREAKS!" in all parts of the world, Breathless "experts" daily warning everyone of how DEADLY it all is. And how we can "STAY SAFE". With equally breathless sighs and "Thank you Dr" replies from news people. And ALL preaching with a Fundamentalist fervor about "trusting the vaccines" and "trusting 'the Science'" Vaccines, Mask and Lockdowns, the holy trinity are THE ONLY real WAY of true salvation for us all. And if you don't believe it then you are an evil (or idiotic) heretic whose going to damn us all. And we must mandate your allegiance to the trinity or you'll be outcast/shunned from those redeemed by vaccination in society.

THAT'S paranoia.

[Gunny]

@Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30)

I'm fighting for each individual to make their own choices based on as much info as is available. In my opinion that's paramount to freedom.

I think we need to understand that each person made their choice based upon their own circumstances. In the beginning I was posting info to get it out there to help people make their choice. I am not trying to convince anyone what to do.

I really trust my medical professionals and not one of them has told me to get the shot. I might regret it one day but for now I'm OK with my decision.

I haven't told a single person what I think they should or should not do when it comes to this topic. I have stated pretty much exactly as your comment: it's an individual choice. My comments are general, not aimed at any one person when it comes to the big picture.

If the right is som concerned about losing freedom, then why is the right constantly focused on something the left is telling them to instead of focusing on the few remaining freedoms we have? While everyone's caught up in fighting over a virus, the TRUE deadly virus -- the left -- is taking away the means to freedom. It's destroying our individuality by selling us out to the World. Right in front of our faces and no one on the right is paying any attention. So caught up in their individual little trees they can't see the forest fire heading their way.

I love my freedom. WHat's left of it. I REALLY loved the freedom we used to have. It's been chipped away, using the same, tired old strategy and tactics that no one on the right seems capable of snapping to -- distract, divide, accuse and conquer.

Meanwhile, the Dems in collusion with same old RINOs have spent $1 trillion with $3 more trillion in the works. They're moving on. They get their way on voting rights they take away our choice in so-called "leadership". No freedom there. They get their way on the border, and same ending. They're stacking the deck and what is the right doing?

Arguing about a freakin immunization, masks and lockdowns. When the left gets control of everything, as we can see, they don't care whet the People think and your "freedom" is whatever they say at their leisure.

People are going to have to sacrifice short term "freedoms" in order to collectively win ALL our freedoms back. No individuals are going to "win freedom" against a collective and the the left currently has the right exactly where it wants it. The left is united in taking everything while the right is not collectively focused enough to save itself.

At the moment, this is a lost cause.

[fj1200]

1st of all I didn't "rework numbers" i just put them in their FULL context. All of the numbers together. And did not isolate them for a false effect.

But you didn't really answer my questions.
And my point wasn't that they used false numbers they simply made them look "25 fold" BETTER than they actually are.
That is a LIE.
Looking at anything under a good magnifying glass makes it LOOK bigger. Not clearly saying that it is not really that big is a Lie.

As stated earlier the real numbers of deaths are 40 compared to 960... out of 100,000. In what world is that a "25 FOLD" reduction FJ?

But Ok FJ, you think the vaccines make a big difference, Could you please tell me what numbers in that CDC chart give you that impression?

I meant reworked the graphs but I also said reworked the numbers later. My apologies. I acknowledged the differences in relative numbers but each of those numbers shows a decrease in each metric; 8 times/25 times less. None of those numbers to me are false or a lie. From 960 to 40 is a 25 fold reduction no matter the scale of the graph. Comparing it to 100,000 is where people can decide the relative risk.

So long story short any of those numbers you posted make the case for me.

[fj1200]

Well my concerns aren't conspiracy driven. they are FACT based.
the basic facts are that the vaccines do not seem to be that effective at stopping deaths. And the long term effects are completely unknown. And based on the demographics of disease I'm not in the most high risk range of dying from covid-19. A less than 95+% chance.

I'm not sure what paranoid conspiracies you think are driving people away.

I'll will say this though, seems like every month we find that the "officials", U.S. and abroad, are caught in some lie, misrepresentation, backtracking double-talk or extreme miscalculation. And are aided in the squelching of unwanted facts and voices by their friends in the MSM and Social Media. How many times does this have to happen before it's OK for reasonable people start to ask if the official info really is trust worthy?
It's made me FAR MORE suspicious of the motives and possible other agendas than I was at the beginning of the pandemic. So now i've got a lot more reasons NOT to trust the official narratives until I take a 2nd, 3rd and 4th look.

And c'mon FJ, who's really been pumping up paranoia surrounding covid-19? It's The MSM, they have been on a year plus Orgy of FEAR Mongering about covid-19. With Death Counts! Infection counts! Hospitals are OVERFLOWING! (but they're mostly not), Hundreds of gut wrenching Interviews with families of the deceased, Daily updates on various "OUTBREAKS!" in all parts of the world, Breathless "experts" daily warning everyone of how DEADLY it all is. And how we can "STAY SAFE". With equally breathless sighs and "Thank you Dr" replies from news people. And ALL preaching with a Fundamentalist fervor about "trusting the vaccines" and "trusting 'the Science'" Vaccines, Mask and Lockdowns, the holy trinity are THE ONLY real WAY of true salvation for us all. And if you don't believe it then you are an evil (or idiotic) heretic whose going to damn us all. And we must mandate your allegiance to the trinity or you'll be outcast/shunned from those redeemed by vaccination in society.

THAT'S paranoia.

I didn't say your concerns were conspiracy driven; that was a general comment. And I'll grant you that the messaging on one side is over the top but you'll have to grant me that some of the rantings on the otherside are over the top. Have you seen some of the other threads going on around here?

You want me to be critical of lockdowns and over the top MSM I will be... without going overboard. But I'll also be critical where I choose to be. The problem with this and so many other things it's you're with me or against with zero middle ground. That's concerning to me.

[revelarts]

I didn't say your concerns were conspiracy driven; that was a general comment. And I'll grant you that the messaging on one side is over the top but you'll have to grant me that some of the rantings on the otherside are over the top. Have you seen some of the other threads going on around here?

You want me to be critical of lockdowns and over the top MSM I will be... without going overboard. But I'll also be critical where I choose to be. The problem with this and so many other things it's you're with me or against with zero middle ground. That's concerning to me.

Sure, there's no doubt that some of the Push back is over the top.
When people see themselves getting stepped on they may say some crazy things. (some may scream "they're trying to kill me!")
But here's the thing to consider here, the crazy push-back is not promoted as FACT 24/7 by ANY MSM, or ANY Social Media or ANY Official bodies.
While ALL of the over the tops crap that comes from the "officials" IS promoted as FACT 24/7... until it goes down the memory hole and new official "facts" are sent our way.

And the reasonable responses ...and even hard questions... are NOT heard at all except on ALT media and short burst that break through the Social Media Blockade of info.
Phd's epidemiologist, Medical Drs and nurses of all stripes, blacklisted and banned.
Health Representatives of National gov'ts and State govt's, even vaccine injured people blacked-outed or attacked for daring to have alternative or - dissenting opinions and actions.

the Over the Topness (?) of the "Official stories" goes far beyond just a few random loud mouth covid-deniers that are shouting into the hurricane wind of the mainstream narrative.

And yes I think the "you're with me or against" BS is a distraction. But again the OFFICIAL side has set it up or at least play it as such, and keeps the ball rolling by putting ever more pressure on the so-called other side to conform or else.
No room for "doubters" we're all gonna die if you don't believe and submit to alla.. cough... I mean... vax masks and lockdowns.

And Of Course, you have a right to point out the flaws you see in the push back, we all need to examine all the available voices and point out the crap. But lets not pretend that those that are pushing back are in the power position here. The Officials and the MSM seem certain they are DOING GOOD (or for $$$ & pwer?)... so they are not very concerned about the bulldozing the 'unclean' opposition for the greater good.
They don't seem to have your laissez faire attitude FJ.

[fj1200]

Sure, there's no doubt that some of the Push back is over the top.
When people see themselves getting stepped on they may say some crazy things. (some may scream "they're trying to kill me!")
But here's the thing to consider here, the crazy push-back is not promoted as FACT 24/7 by ANY MSM, or ANY Social Media or ANY Official bodies.
While ALL of the over the tops crap that comes from the "officials" IS promoted as FACT 24/7... until it goes down the memory hole and new official "facts" are sent our way.

And the reasonable responses ...and even hard questions... are NOT heard at all except on ALT media and short burst that break through the Social Media Blockade of info.
Phd's epidemiologist, Medical Drs and nurses of all stripes, blacklisted and banned.
Health Representatives of National gov'ts and State govt's, even vaccine injured people blacked-outed or attacked for daring to have alternative or - dissenting opinions and actions.

the Over the Topness (?) of the "Official stories" goes far beyond just a few random loud mouth covid-deniers that are shouting into the hurricane wind of the mainstream narrative.

And yes I think the "you're with me or against" BS is a distraction. But again the OFFICIAL side has set it up or at least play it as such, and keeps the ball rolling by putting ever more pressure on the so-called other side to conform or else.
No room for "doubters" we're all gonna die if you don't believe and submit to alla.. cough... I mean... vax masks and lockdowns.

And Of Course, you have a right to point out the flaws you see in the push back, we all need to examine all the available voices and point out the crap. But lets not pretend that those that are pushing back are in the power position here. The Officials and the MSM seem certain they are DOING GOOD (or for $$$ & pwer?)... so they are not very concerned about the bulldozing the 'unclean' opposition for the greater good.
They don't seem to have your laissez faire attitude FJ.

One could argue all day about that though I won't... except to say that each side drives the other voices more and more extreme IMO.

Since i've started responding to some of the vaccine opposition recently I haven't seen anything that really stands up to even cursory examination. I really don't know what to say other than people should be able to make their own choices but there's no conspiracy. I know people at the CDC and they do good work and they care about what they're doing and the world is better for it. Even the COVID response. My friend there can agree that the CDC messaging is awful but that doesn't make the whole suspect.

[revelarts]

One could argue all day about that though I won't... except to say that each side drives the other voices more and more extreme IMO.

Since i've started responding to some of the vaccine opposition recently I haven't seen anything that really stands up to even cursory examination. I really don't know what to say other than people should be able to make their own choices but there's no conspiracy. I know people at the CDC and they do good work and they care about what they're doing and the world is better for it. Even the COVID response. My friend there can agree that the CDC messaging is awful but that doesn't make the whole suspect.

well, i'm not sure what you've seen. but it seems based on the small articles and charts I've shown you that you're very willing to give the CDC the FULL benny of the doubt. .. even in their messageing.
But you say the "messaging" has been poor. I'm not sure we mean the same thing even in saying that.
IMO the CDC and other official bodies often presents info that implies:
• One level of danger for the Covid but the real level of danger is less and FAR less for some groups.
• One level of protection via lockdowns and mask but the level of protection is FAR FAR LESS. And for lockdowns were, initially, completely unknown and untried. (and unconstitutional) and eventually provably ineffective.
• One level of protection and safety from the New experimental vaccines when the level of protection is debatable and the level of safety is less than "messaged" ("reasonable" "expected" risk were understated in the "messaging") and the level of testing FAR less than adequate for the level distribution. Especially in the case pregnant woman and children. And the possible the long term negative effects completely disregarded and assumed minor or "acceptable". By well meaning officials.

If i'm reading you right you seem to think some folks believe the WHOLE CDC is out to get us. And all evil and corrupt. This is the same kind of mistake some folks make when someone points out problems with police or policing. The "I know many police officers and they are GOOD people! 99.9% . Why are U condemning ALL police?! " defense.

If that's the case then you're missing all the serious points and overlooking the real problems. No serious person thinks EVERYONE in the police or the CDC or the NIH or the WHO or all the Pharma companies are just out to get us. But there may be some specific and systematic problems and options that go beyond "messaging" .
And just because people BELIEVE they are doing good doesn't mean are. Many well meaning drugs, treatments and solutions have been promoted over the years that have turned out to be harmful to various degrees. Drugs and vaccines completely pulled from the market. Approved by the FDA as "safe and effective" but later found to harmful or deadly.

These problem issues around covid and the vaccines are brought up by epidemiologist, leaders of medical depts, Heads of Gov't health depts, Drs and nurses in the field, former Pharma executives, Phd researchers, statisticians, vaccine injured people and more.
But the official "messaging" won't ALLOW them serious consideration.
Just lumps them in with the most irrational over the top Alex Jones fan.

Everyone is told to TRUST the official messaging FJ. No matter how bad it is or how many lives it may harm or who says anything that tries to correct the "messaging" or even put the crappy "messaging" into a proper context.

Personally, I'd rather not be collateral damage in the Officials and CDC's good fight to help us all.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Sure, there's no doubt that some of the Push back is over the top.
When people see themselves getting stepped on they may say some crazy things. (some may scream "they're trying to kill me!")
But here's the thing to consider here, the crazy push-back is not promoted as FACT 24/7 by ANY MSM, or ANY Social Media or ANY Official bodies.
While ALL of the over the tops crap that comes from the "officials" IS promoted as FACT 24/7... until it goes down the memory hole and new official "facts" are sent our way.

And the reasonable responses ...and even hard questions... are NOT heard at all except on ALT media and short burst that break through the Social Media Blockade of info.
Phd's epidemiologist, Medical Drs and nurses of all stripes, blacklisted and banned.
Health Representatives of National gov'ts and State govt's, even vaccine injured people blacked-outed or attacked for daring to have alternative or - dissenting opinions and actions.

the Over the Topness (?) of the "Official stories" goes far beyond just a few random loud mouth covid-deniers that are shouting into the hurricane wind of the mainstream narrative.

And yes I think the "you're with me or against" BS is a distraction. But again the OFFICIAL side has set it up or at least play it as such, and keeps the ball rolling by putting ever more pressure on the so-called other side to conform or else.
No room for "doubters" we're all gonna die if you don't believe and submit to alla.. cough... I mean... vax masks and lockdowns.

And Of Course, you have a right to point out the flaws you see in the push back, we all need to examine all the available voices and point out the crap. But lets not pretend that those that are pushing back are in the power position here. The Officials and the MSM seem certain they are DOING GOOD (or for $$$ & pwer?)... so they are not very concerned about the bulldozing the 'unclean' opposition for the greater good.
They don't seem to have your laissez faire attitude FJ.


They don't seem to have your laissez faire attitude FJ.

The most irritating part is when what you just cited is totally ignored by people so they can vilify the messenger-and do so for nefarious reasons.
Sometimes do so for personal reasons based upon animosity.
Now any person doing that should be judged by their obvious motive and not applauded as some intelligent and fair-minded person.
The current dem/leftist propaganda and cheerleaders are at full force ion the internet- and as usual operate to try to shut down anything that points to the serious negatives in regards to the vaccine- or should I say -in regards to the massive experiment that is going on.. and being conducted without any concern to the level of death and serious injuries it is most definitely causing!
Myself, I have ben attacked every place I have presented the truth about this vaccine.
And to be perfectly blunt about that- I am damned tired of it and have absolutely zero respect for those that have attacked me.
Be it noted-- not one has ever attacked in any way, when face to face I speak about it...
That to me points to a very solid conclusion...
And I speak to many people face to face about at this stage perhaps at least a hundred or more.
When they can not== hide-- they are more reasonable and the interchange never causes ac disturbance of any kind..
That to= is very , very telling.--Tyr

[fj1200]

well, i'm not sure what you've seen. but it seems based on the small articles and charts I've shown you that you're very willing to give the CDC the FULL benny of the doubt. .. even in their messageing.
But you say the "messaging" has been poor. I'm not sure we mean the same thing even in saying that.
IMO the CDC and other official bodies often presents info that implies:
• One level of danger for the Covid but the real level of danger is less and FAR less for some groups.
• One level of protection via lockdowns and mask but the level of protection is FAR FAR LESS. And for lockdowns were, initially, completely unknown and untried. (and unconstitutional) and eventually provably ineffective.
• One level of protection and safety from the New experimental vaccines when the level of protection is debatable and the level of safety is less than "messaged" ("reasonable" "expected" risk were understated in the "messaging") and the level of testing FAR less than adequate for the level distribution. Especially in the case pregnant woman and children. And the possible the long term negative effects completely disregarded and assumed minor or "acceptable". By well meaning officials.

If i'm reading you right you seem to think some folks believe the WHOLE CDC is out to get us. And all evil and corrupt. This is the same kind of mistake some folks make when someone points out problems with police or policing. The "I know many police officers and they are GOOD people! 99.9% . Why are U condemning ALL police?! " defense.

If that's the case then you're missing all the serious points and overlooking the real problems. No serious person thinks EVERYONE in the police or the CDC or the NIH or the WHO or all the Pharma companies are just out to get us. But there may be some specific and systematic problems and options that go beyond "messaging" .
And just because people BELIEVE they are doing good doesn't mean are. Many well meaning drugs, treatments and solutions have been promoted over the years that have turned out to be harmful to various degrees. Drugs and vaccines completely pulled from the market. Approved by the FDA as "safe and effective" but later found to harmful or deadly.

These problem issues around covid and the vaccines are brought up by epidemiologist, leaders of medical depts, Heads of Gov't health depts, Drs and nurses in the field, former Pharma executives, Phd researchers, statisticians, vaccine injured people and more.
But the official "messaging" won't ALLOW them serious consideration.
Just lumps them in with the most irrational over the top Alex Jones fan.

Everyone is told to TRUST the official messaging FJ. No matter how bad it is or how many lives it may harm or who says anything that tries to correct the "messaging" or even put the crappy "messaging" into a proper context.

Personally, I'd rather not be collateral damage in the Officials and CDC's good fight to help us all.

Where does me saying "their messaging has been awful" equate to them getting the "FULL benny of the doubt"?

I don't think that serious people believe that but some people who think they're serious believe it. But we can go round n round and I understand where you're coming from and I don't necessarily disagree things today are defined by the extremes. The anti-COVID people are winning this one.

[fj1200]

The most irritating part is when what you just cited is totally ignored by people so they can vilify the messenger-and do so for nefarious reasons.
Sometimes do so for personal reasons based upon animosity.
Now any person doing that should be judged by their obvious motive and not applauded as some intelligent and fair-minded person.
The current dem/leftist propaganda and cheerleaders are at full force ion the internet- and as usual operate to try to shut down anything that points to the serious negatives in regards to the vaccine- or should I say -in regards to the massive experiment that is going on.. and being conducted without any concern to the level of death and serious injuries it is most definitely causing!
Myself, I have ben attacked every place I have presented the truth about this vaccine.
And to be perfectly blunt about that- I am damned tired of it and have absolutely zero respect for those that have attacked me.
Be it noted-- not one has ever attacked in any way, when face to face I speak about it...
That to me points to a very solid conclusion...
And I speak to many people face to face about at this stage perhaps at least a hundred or more.
When they can not== hide-- they are more reasonable and the interchange never causes ac disturbance of any kind..
That to= is very , very telling.--Tyr

That's where you're just wrong. I cited that point but almost the entire rest of it is wrong too. From what I've seen any "truth" you've posted has either been easily disproved takes on the research done or delusion-based rants. Neither of those win any interweb points.