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Kathianne
01-13-2021, 12:18 PM
Lots of truth in the following. I'm feeling ok, I condemned the earlier riots, along with Antifa/BLM/opportunistic looters/insane mayors and governors. I condemned Tuesday and those who planned and executed it.

Most folks marching for 'social justice' were peaceful. Those were generally the marchers during daylight. But not all were just exercising their civil rights. Many were in for overthrowing the government, anarchists will do anarchy.

I don't go along with moral equivalency though.

https://www.city-journal.org/about-whataboutism-and-political-hypocrisy


EYE ON THE NEWSAbout “Whataboutism”

When turnabout is never fair playWilliam Voegeli (https://www.city-journal.org/contributor/william-voegeli_680)
January 12, 2021

Many things are complicated—but not everything. If you condemned the Antifa/Black Lives Matter violence that took place around the country in 2020, as all conservatives did, then you must condemn the Trumpist riot at the U.S. Capitol in 2021. Period.


Suppose, however, you spent last summer applauding the riots, or dissembling about them, or dismissing them. In that case, to deplore last week’s violence credibly is not so simple. If you demand that your political adversaries adhere to a principle, but exempt people whose cause you endorse from having to comply, then that preference you enjoy boasting about is not really a principle. It is not a standard of conduct applicable to all, in other words, but just another rhetorical device used for political combat.


If you’re Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, for example, a question in July about mobs toppling statues in public spaces elicited not a denunciation but a koan: “People will do what they do.” Indeed, people will do what they do. Some people, for example, will break into the Capitol and occupy the Speaker’s office. But limiting oneself to the serene observation that this is what they do would constitute a grave failure to repudiate an offense against law, order, and democracy.


Nikole Hannah-Jones, who won a Pulitzer Prize for creating the New York Times’s “1619 Project,” also expressed equanimity and even pride regarding last year’s unrest. “It would be an honor,” she said, if the burning police stations and looted stores came to be described as the “1619 Riots.” In any case, “Destroying property, which can be replaced, is not violence.” Hannah-Jones went on to explain, “Any reasonable person would say we shouldn’t be destroying other people’s property, but these are not reasonable times.” Reasonable people also say that mobs should not overrun the seat of government or be gratified if someone calls that assault the “1776 Riots.” But if declaring “these are not reasonable times” changes everything, then the loophole devours the rule, or even the idea of having rules.


When protesters surrounded a Seattle police station, forcing officers to evacuate it, and declared the adjacent area an “autonomous zone,” mayor Jenny Durkan was reassuring: “Don’t be so afraid of democracy.” Civic and political leaders in Philadelphia were equally non-judgmental about the shattered glass and boarded stores on their streets. “I don’t think we need to be parsing whether there needs to be looting,” said one city council member. Rioting was “understandable but regrettable,” Jesse Jackson said in June, a quasi-criticism no one would think to apply to the Capitol Hill mob.


In the wake of last week’s riot, formulations like these have become deeply embarrassing. What is to be done? One option would be for the people who put them forward, and their many political allies, to admit the obvious: since riots are bad—utterly, always, and everywhere—justifying them, or praising them with faint damns, is also colossally irresponsible. The people who set last summer’s fires, looted stores, or assaulted motorists and pedestrians should be condemned, and the people who made excuses for their behavior should be ashamed. Reader, you are borne through life with a sunnier view of human nature than I if you are dismayed that no such apologies or retractions have yet been offered.

...

jimnyc
01-13-2021, 05:54 PM
Some of what I'll say may not be popular but I believe it to be the truth.

Earlier in the year when George Floyd was killed, it set off national protests & also national condemnation of this officer and accused him of murder. Folks on the right almost universally agreed. And even here, the actions were condemned and much of the protests supported. The negativity being whether or not murder 1 would hold or what lesser charges may stick. But then slowly but surely, riots started breaking out. The violence and destruction was almost instantly condemned by most of us on the right. Many on the left supported these actions, including politicians and leading media.

Then happens the Ahmaud Arbery situation. Seemingly instantly condemned across the board. That he was hunted down and murdered. Again, everything was supported across the board and protests about the situation ensued. And of course riots end up happening.

Whether one of those direct situations or another or just building on them - it was the same picture all year long - which was massive protesting which later would turn over into a lot of destruction and violence. To repeat, homes, businesses, city halls, other government buildings, endless statues/monuments & more... along with went a ton of violence, towards the police or anything that stood in their way. As police fought, were assaulted and some killed - politicians and other locals tried to defund them and some did in fact take away their tools to control riots. Offers to give assistance to help reduce the violence and destruction were turned down. In quite a few instances we saw not only the help turned down - but denials made publicly and embarrassingly as if it were a joke.

So all year long, mass protests followed by mass rioting, violence & destruction and death. And all year long, the leftist MSM made excuses, called them peaceful & only emboldened their actions. At the same time, the politicians on the left were collectively concentrating on condemning Trump and the police as stormtroopers and worse. And all year long the right complained about violence and destruction & complaining about so many that refused this help, and those who made a joke out of it on the MSM. Now it wasn't perfect like that. You may have had a lefty here and there condemning all these actions, but I didn't see much. And were there righty folks out there supporting the violence, wanting to defund the police and what not? Well, there was Romney. :rolleyes: But no, it's never perfect, but that was mainly the picture.

And then enter this march and then marching to the capitol - and then "capitalized" by mass idiots creating mass crime on hallowed ground. And all righties. Anyone that went beyond that fencing, went beyond anywhere with obvious signing of off limits, no trespassing and the obvious of entering the rotunda and more, and then the chambers. Some may have done so incidentally, but there were more than plenty there that also had a plan in mind.

*** Anyway, it was obviously and instantly condemned from the left, and the leftists MSM and politicians. Myself, I condemned instantly. I know some others here did. From what I saw and what I know, most of these folks condemned instantly, many on the right, the politicians, condemned instantly..... then yes, some regular folks took awhile to speak up, or changed their minds or whatever. I'm more than confident that yes, some won't condemn their actions, whether that be politicians or us regular jokers. It happens. But mainly overall the lefties and righties condemned. Most I know did so. ---- *** So I would say, at least of you're into averages, if you were to look at things realistically, the right, us, equally condemned violence and destruction as we saw it during the year. And us, here, the right, most I know, also equally condemn the actions.

I know I have an end of the coffee day jitters rambling going on - but what I'm saying is that I think the right has been more consistent about calling out these things, the violence/destruction, the law and order & crimes - than the left has been. And if you want to kill me, if you read this entire thing, feel free to say so!! I like to know about my accomplishments! :coffee: :coffee2: :cof:

Abbey Marie
01-13-2021, 06:06 PM
I hear you, Jim.
I think several of us are saying this in slightly different ways. We are missing a sense of proportion when we try to compare the bad actions of the right and the left. They aren’t even close to equal, exacerbated by the media’s vastly unequal treatment. And saying this is not a defense of the Capitol riots, they were wrong. I cannot put it any more simply.

Kathianne
01-13-2021, 07:56 PM
I hear you, Jim.
I think several of us are saying this in slightly different ways. We are missing a sense of proportion when we try to compare the bad actions of the right and the left. They aren’t even close to equal, exacerbated by the media’s vastly unequal treatment. And saying this is not a defense of the Capitol riots, they were wrong. I cannot put it any more simply.

I agree. In sheer quantity of destruction and lives lost, no comparisons. All were wrong, illegal, and due justice.

The only difference is who arranged for the protest and riled the mob.

jimnyc
01-13-2021, 08:15 PM
I hear you, Jim.
I think several of us are saying this in slightly different ways. We are missing a sense of proportion when we try to compare the bad actions of the right and the left. They aren’t even close to equal, exacerbated by the media’s vastly unequal treatment. And saying this is not a defense of the Capitol riots, they were wrong. I cannot put it any more simply.

And it's also difficult to even shake your head, make any comparisons, point out any hypocrisy.... as any of the above questioning could lead to your cancelation (outside here anyway). And in reality it matters, as the hypocrisy only continues and only serves to exacerbate the issue.


I agree. In sheer quantity of destruction and lives lost, no comparisons. All were wrong, illegal, and due justice.

The only difference is who arranged for the protest and riled the mob.

I still say that from what I saw, it's been mostly equal HERE. We all talked sensibly this year as things went on. We condemned the violence daily. We condemned when the violence came from cops towards a citizen. From a couple of citizens that appeared to hunt a black man down. Condemned governors and mayors that appeared to be AWOL at times. And the charlotte idiot that ran into people, he was condemned. In other words, wrong was condemned mostly as we saw it. -- Then the events at the capitol and instant condemnation of those that broke any laws. Anyone that helped those break any laws. No one is going to support what took place at what I call "hallowed grounds" or sacred grounds. Similar like the White House. Places that go down as a major part of our history and where our leaders live and get together for all of us. Now many getting rightfully arrested and jailed.

Not sure how much anyone knew in advance but I hope that leaks soon. I know more and more is coming out showing that all kinds of people had ideas of how to get around, and at least one video of that woman on a megaphone telling them specifics. They too need to be found, and things start to pile up hopefully.

fj1200
01-13-2021, 09:52 PM
Some of what I'll say may not be popular but I believe it to be the truth.

Not much disagreement here. I was talking to a friend in the neighborhood and I told him that in almost every case the actual events on the ground are never what they are made of by the mob and the initial narrative by the talking heads of the event. Floyd, Arbery, Taylor, etc. People get the initial view of the 8 minutes of what happened to Floyd but when the video of the preceding 8 minutes comes out there's hardly any word about it and people carry on with what they believe. People say that they want truth but not really. Charles Barkley and Shaquille O'neal expressed some agreement with the Taylor grand jury and they were beset upon by those who had their own truth of what they think happened.

The problem is fighting that...