A Michigan Barbershop Used Armed Militia To Stop Police From Shutting Them Down

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/michigan-barbershop-used-armed-militia-210213231.html

A Michigan Barbershop Used Armed Militia To Stop Police From Shutting Them Down
Britni de la Cretaz
Refinery29May 13, 2020, 4:02 PM CDT

Michigan has been one of the hardest hit states in the country during the coronavirus pandemic. As a result, Gov. Gretchen Whitmer issued strict stay-at-home orders — but not all residents are happy about them. People who disagree with the forced shutdown of many businesses and public spaces have made their displeasure known with ongoing protests at the State House. And, in the case of a barber shop in the town of Owosso, an armed militia is on guard outside to prevent the police from coming inside and shutting it down.

“If we have enough people to block entry and people are willing to be arrested, then we’ll do that,” Michigan Home Guard militia member Daniel Brewser told WILX. “If not then we’ll let him be arrested and we’ll organize another protest at the jailhouse with full battle rattle.”

The owner of the shop, 77-year-old Karl Manke, opened his doors to customers earlier this month in defiance of state orders. As a result, Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel’s office has deemed the barbershop “an imminent danger to the public,” according to NBC 25 News. Manke received two police citations already, but overwhelming crowds wearing Trump shirts, hats, and carrying Trump flags have bombarded the space in front of his storefront after he chose to open doors once again.


Members of the Michigan Home Guard —“Michigan’s biggest and most active militia,” according to their website — and dozens of other supporters have been standing outside the shop in order to help Manke stay open. According to reports, the militia members appear to be armed and prepared to take on police.

Despite the fact that over 75 percent of Michigan residents agree with Gov. Whitmer’s handling of the pandemic, the opposition has had a massive impact, especially after President Trump tweeted that the re-open protesters are “very good people” who “want their lives back again.” As of Wednesday, there were over 48,000 confirmed coronavirus cases and more than 4,600 deaths in the state.

“If you can walk down the aisles at Walmart it would seem to me you could walk down the aisles at a church,” Manke’s attorney, David Kallman, told WILX. “You could walk down the aisles in Karl’s barbershop and practice the same physical distancing, hand washing, all the things we’ve been hearing on and on right?”

Shiawassee County Sheriff Brian Begole posted on Facebook on Monday saying his office does not have enough deputies to enforce the governor’s executive orders and will not be prioritizing it. In addition to concerns over allowing protestors to remain active in the wake of rising case numbers, Jamil Smith pointed out in Rolling Stone how disproportionately white the armed protesters in Michigan are — while the people dying from the virus have been disproportionately Black and brown.

“If we are to believe that folks like these armed Michigan demonstrators really dislike the closures of small businesses, where is their anger over the sloppy government restitution program that has failed in its stated goal of helping those businesses?” Smith asks. “Where is their ire for lawmakers like Kemp, Trump, and the Republicans in Michigan who sought to thwart Whitmer’s orders, likely sacrificing lives to save their political skins?”

Smith also noted that Whitmer “didn’t blink” in the face of these aggressive lockdown protests, and that there was “no reason to.” “She extended her coronavirus orders because there’s something more frightening than angry men with guns,” he wrote on Twitter.

I am surprised that this occurred in Michigan instead of one of the western/southern states.
Myself, I think it is a bold and correct action, as the over hyping has lead to unconstitutional restrictions/actions by politicians/-especially so by certain governors...... -- Tyr

[STTAB]

I am surprised that this occurred in Michigan instead of one of the western/southern states.
Myself, I think it is a bold and correct action, as the over hyping has lead to unconstitutional restrictions/actions by politicians/-especially so by certain governors...... -- Tyr


Would you feel the same if a young armed black man faced off against the police because he thought they were there to enforce an unconstitutional law?

LOL This is exactly the sort of situation which gives crazy gun grabbers any license to even attempt to take guns.

[Abbey Marie]

I will go on record as saying this is a terrible idea. Perhaps I am naive, but I didn’t think folks would actually be so eager to start a revolution.

[Kathianne]

I will go on record as saying this is a terrible idea. Perhaps I am naive, but I didn’t think folks would actually be so eager to start a revolution.

Yeah. I agree. IF the government is doing something someone finds so unfair/unconstitutional, which I think the barber has a point, the way is not to carry arms to 'protect,' certainly not initially. Just like the founders, first try petition. IF that doesn't work, civil disobedience, this only stayed 'civil' because the law enforcement people kept their heads.

Look at Elon Musk. Make your choice, stand your ground, be willing to pay the price.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I will go on record as saying this is a terrible idea. Perhaps I am naive, but I didn’t think folks would actually be so eager to start a revolution.
My friend, the undeclared revolution has been going on for a long time now. They call it liberalism and its party is the dem party.
A radical change occurred in the 60's- the Dem party was taken over by socialism, hot on one day, one month one year, but in that decade.
Now it is infested with pure blood socialists, communists -lite, progressives , atheists, anti-constitutionalists, globalists, etc..
When governors act like Presidents, some of want to know where in the Constitution they are given these Presidential powers.
I am all for States rights being insured but not dictatorial rights.
If I want to risk getting my haircut -that should be between me and whatever barber agrees to cut my hair.
Not some nanny-state governor that decides that I must hide in my home ..
I am tolerant, as I make no complaints against those that wish to stay in their homes, cut their own hair..
But I am not for some idiot governor ordering me to stay home and not get my hair cut.
Question is -how much more are we willing to give up in order for this false security these idiots are peddling.
Because trust me, this is almost nothing in comparison to what they want and plan on doing to us.
(give an inch, they will gladly take a mile) applies to government--never more so than to that of democrat politicians, imho.
Choice, anybody deciding to voluntarily stay inside and try to ride it out-- ok by me.
But any demanding that I--MUST-- do the same-- is certainly not ok by me..
To me freedom is precious and should not be sold or given away in the name of false security....
And a false security is what they are promising..-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Yeah. I agree. IF the government is doing something someone finds so unfair/unconstitutional, which I think the barber has a point, the way is not to carry arms to 'protect,' certainly not initially. Just like the founders, first try petition. IF that doesn't work, civil disobedience, this only stayed 'civil' because the law enforcement people kept their heads.

Look at Elon Musk. Make your choice, stand your ground, be willing to pay the price.


IF that doesn't work, civil disobedience

What that militia did was civil disobedience.. Was not the law enforcement duty sworn to --keep their heads?
If they so adamantly thought it so bad-- then petition the idiot governor to ask for federal intervention.
But they know TRUMP--this nation's assigned and duly elected leader is not for that intervention.
Are we to say that the militia was wrong because the cops didnt open fire on them??
Maybe the cops didnt no push it is because so many of them thought the order was wrong!???
As other police in other locations are openly refusing to enforce such orders.
It is indeed a very dicey situation --but such is brought on by power grabs by politicians --not brought on by citizens, imho..-Tyr

[Black Diamond]

I am surprised that this occurred in Michigan instead of one of the western/southern states.
Myself, I think it is a bold and correct action, as the over hyping has lead to unconstitutional restrictions/actions by politicians/-especially so by certain governors...... -- Tyr
Plenty of rednecks in Michigan.

[Black Diamond]

What that militia did was civil disobedience.. Was not the law enforcement duty sworn to --keep their heads?
If they so adamantly thought it so bad-- then petition the idiot governor to ask for federal intervention.
But they know TRUMP--this nation's assigned and duly elected leader is not for that intervention.
Are we to say that the militia was wrong because the cops didnt open fire on them??
Maybe the cops didnt no push it is because so many of them thought the order was wrong!???
As other police in other locations are openly refusing to enforce such orders.
It is indeed a very dicey situation --but such is brought on by power grabs by politicians --not brought on by citizens, imho..-Tyr

I don't know re this particular situation but there have been a few sheriffs who said they wouldn't enforce *some* of Whitmer's draconian rules like no boats with motors.

[Black Diamond]

I will go on record as saying this is a terrible idea. Perhaps I am naive, but I didn’t think folks would actually be so eager to start a revolution.

You're not naive. But there has been chatter and articles written about a second Civil War. I started seeing it in Obamas second term.

[Kathianne]

I don't know re this particular situation but there have been a few sheriffs who said they wouldn't enforce *some* of Whitmer's draconian rules like no boats with motors.
Yes, here in my county too. "We believe the governor's actions are not legal, thus we will not arrest or issue citations to anyone. We will remind people of the social distancing recommendations, for their safety and others."

The way it should be.

Plenty of reporting from NYC, stores in Manhattan even. They are opening, the police come in, ask how it's going. Remind them to keep safe and their customers safe.

That is how these things should go.

Now even if the police are bound to enforce, having weapons at the beginning is just not cool. Appeal to our principles and their oaths. If that doesn't work, there's always room for more stands. That's my opinion.

[Black Diamond]

Update.

Looks like they are trying to strip the barber's licenses.


Michigan barber defying Gov. Whitmer’s coronavirus shutdown has license stripped

https://www.foxnews.com/us/michigan-barber-defying-gov-whitmers-coronavirus-shutdown-has-license-stripped

[Kathianne]

Update.

Looks like they are trying to strip the barber's licenses.


Michigan barber defying Gov. Whitmer’s coronavirus shutdown has license stripped

https://www.foxnews.com/us/michigan-barber-defying-gov-whitmers-coronavirus-shutdown-has-license-stripped

I read that last night. There are going to be a ton of lawsuits over these draconian measures, especially in MI.

[CSM]

Yeah. I agree. IF the government is doing something someone finds so unfair/unconstitutional, which I think the barber has a point, the way is not to carry arms to 'protect,' certainly not initially. Just like the founders, first try petition. IF that doesn't work, civil disobedience, this only stayed 'civil' because the law enforcement people kept their heads.

Look at Elon Musk. Make your choice, stand your ground, be willing to pay the price.

It struck me that not just law enforcement kept their collective heads but so did the armed citizens. I can't help but think we citizens have been conditioned to believe (over many years) that an armed citizen is more dangerous than law enforcement. Law enforcement/military = "good"; armed citizen = "bad".

[Kathianne]

Possibly related, the WI State Supreme Court ruled that the EO of WI governor are unconstitutional.

https://news.yahoo.com/wisconsin-supreme-court-strikes-down-225457531.html


Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down governor’s stay-at-home order
USA TODAY
Molly Beck, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
,USA TODAY•May 14, 2020

MADISON, Wis. – The Wisconsin Supreme Court has struck down Gov. Tony Evers' order shutting down daily life to limit the spread of coronavirus – marking the first time a statewide order of its kind has been knocked down by a court of last resort.


The state's highest court, which is controlled by conservatives, sided with Republican lawmakers Wednesday in a decision that curbed the Evers administration's power to act unilaterally during public health emergencies.


The 4-3 decision was written by four of the court’s conservatives – Chief Justice Patience Roggensack and Justices Rebecca Bradley, Daniel Kelly and Annette Ziegler.


The court’s fifth conservative, Brian Hagedorn, wrote a dissent joined by the court’s two liberals, Ann Walsh Bradley and Rebecca Dallet. (The Bradleys are not related.)


The ruling immediately lifts all restrictions on businesses and gatherings imposed by the administration's order but keeps in place the closure of schools until fall. It comes after Evers had already begun lifting some restrictions because the spread of the virus has slowed for now.


"Republican legislators convinced four members of the Supreme Court to throw the state into chaos," Evers told reporters Wednesday evening. "Republicans own that chaos."


Republicans who brought the lawsuit had asked the justices to side with them but to stay their ruling for about a week so legislators and Evers could work out a new plan to deal with the pandemic.


The justices declined to do that and had their ruling take effect immediately.

...

[Abbey Marie]

You're not naive. But there has been chatter and articles written about a second Civil War. I started seeing it in Obamas second term.

I have seen those, here even. Some folks have been itching to get into armed conflict for a long time. Let me put this as diplomatically as possible: That is a certain subset of people with whom I and my family have zero in common. But threatening and actually doing are two very different things. I’m wondering when we will reach a point of no return.

[Abbey Marie]

I don't know re this particular situation but there have been a few sheriffs who said they wouldn't enforce *some* of Whitmer's draconian rules like no boats with motors.

How is this different from the Governors who allow Sanctuary Cities in their state? Proponents of civil disobedience in each case say the “law” is unjust, so we won’t follow it. We need to look at the big picture here, and understand that things tend to become chaotic and dangerous once this attitude is taken. And talk about a slippery slope.

[Abbey Marie]

My friend, the undeclared revolution has been going on for a long time now. They call it liberalism and its party is the dem party.
A radical change occurred in the 60's- the Dem party was taken over by socialism, hot on one day, one month one year, but in that decade.
Now it is infested with pure blood socialists, communists -lite, progressives , atheists, anti-constitutionalists, globalists, etc..
When governors act like Presidents, some of want to know where in the Constitution they are given these Presidential powers.
I am all for States rights being insured but not dictatorial rights.
If I want to risk getting my haircut -that should be between me and whatever barber agrees to cut my hair.
Not some nanny-state governor that decides that I must hide in my home ..
I am tolerant, as I make no complaints against those that wish to stay in their homes, cut their own hair..
But I am not for some idiot governor ordering me to stay home and not get my hair cut.
Question is -how much more are we willing to give up in order for this false security these idiots are peddling.
Because trust me, this is almost nothing in comparison to what they want and plan on doing to us.
(give an inch, they will gladly take a mile) applies to government--never more so than to that of democrat politicians, imho.
Choice, anybody deciding to voluntarily stay inside and try to ride it out-- ok by me.
But any demanding that I--MUST-- do the same-- is certainly not ok by me..
To me freedom is precious and should not be sold or given away in the name of false security....
And a false security is what they are promising..-Tyr

If you can guarantee that your haircut, and everyone else’s, won’t result in further spreading a deadly virus, I’m with you. But once your “freedom to do what you want” endangers others’ life, it’s not so clear cut, is it?

As I’ve mentioned here before, we use that argument against abortion all the time- it’s not just the mother’s life (read:freedom) in play. There is a baby whose life is about to be snuffed out. The left argues back that regardless, a woman should have complete autonomy over her body, and that it is a Constitutional right at that. And that her freedom trumps the baby’s life.

I say at the very least, if we are going to argue that we must be able to behave as we wish, on the bases of freedom and the Constitution, we need to do so consistently.

[Black Diamond]

If you can guarantee that your haircut, and everyone else’s, won’t result in Further spreading a deadly virus, I’m with you. But once your “freedom to do what you want” endangers others’ life, it’s not so clear cut, is it?

As I’ve mentioned here before, we use that argument against abortion all the time- it’s not jus the mother’s life (read:freedom) in play. There is a baby whose life is about to be snuffed out. The left argues back that regardless, a woman should have complete autonomy over her body, and that it is a Constitutional right at that. And that her freedom trumps the baby’s life.

I say at the very least, if we are going to argue that we must be able to behave as we wish, on the bases of freedom and the Constitution, we need to do so consistently.

OK. I think the difference between the barber and the baby is that the if the barber and customer want to take a risk, that's up to the two of them. The baby has no choice in an abortion.

[Abbey Marie]

OK. I think the difference between the barber and the baby is that the if the barber and customer want to take a risk, that's up to the two of them. The baby has no choice in an abortion.

And neither does the person infected by the barber or customers once they leave the salon.

[STTAB]

What that militia did was civil disobedience.. Was not the law enforcement duty sworn to --keep their heads?
If they so adamantly thought it so bad-- then petition the idiot governor to ask for federal intervention.
But they know TRUMP--this nation's assigned and duly elected leader is not for that intervention.
Are we to say that the militia was wrong because the cops didnt open fire on them??
Maybe the cops didnt no push it is because so many of them thought the order was wrong!???
As other police in other locations are openly refusing to enforce such orders.
It is indeed a very dicey situation --but such is brought on by power grabs by politicians --not brought on by citizens, imho..-Tyr


No, it's brought on by both. I say again funny how many people have differing opinions depending on who exactly it is that is fighting with police because they disagree with a law or in this case order.

[STTAB]

How is this different from the Governor’s who allow Sanctuary Cities in their state? Proponents of civil disobedience in each case say the “law” is unjust, so we won’t follow it. We need to look at the big picture here, and understand that things tend to become chaotic and dangerous once this attitude is taken. And talk about a slippery slope.


Exactly, and related to what I said earlier, how is what these fools did any different than what so many young black men have been shot for doing over the years, and everyone who's in here "rah rah "the militia" was right the cops were wrong" were then screaming "these dumb black kids shouldn't fight with cops if they don't want to get shot?"

I'm about fed up with inconsistency of though and hypocrisy in this country.

[Abbey Marie]

No, it's brought on by both. I say again funny how many people have differing opinions depending on who exactly it is that is fighting with police because they disagree with a law or in this case order.

12605

[Abbey Marie]

Exactly, and related to what I said earlier, how is what these fools did any different than what so many young black men have been shot for doing over the years, and everyone who's in here "rah rah "the militia" was right the cops were wrong" were then screaming "these dumb black kids shouldn't fight with cops if they don't want to get shot?"

I'm about fed up with inconsistency of though and hypocrisy in this country.

Yo tambien.

[Black Diamond]

How is this different from the Governor’s who allow Sanctuary Cities in their state? Proponents of civil disobedience in each case say the “law” is unjust, so we won’t follow it. We need to look at the big picture here, and understand that things tend to become chaotic and dangerous once this attitude is taken. And talk about a slippery slope.

Maybe the sheriffs would make that argument against Whitmer and Ducey. "Well the left thumbed its nose at trump. How is it different when we do something similar?"

Also i don't think a sanctuary city infringes on people's individual freedoms to the same extent as Whitmer saying you can't go up to your secondary residence that You own, telling you can't buy seeds or paint, or drive your boat if it has a motor.

Compounding the problem is the state legislature in MI tried to negotiate with Whitmer to be less draconian and she gave them the finger and rammed the policies through taunting the Republicans as she did it.

[Abbey Marie]

Maybe the sheriffs would make that argument against Whitmer and Ducey. "Well the left thumbed its nose at trump. How is it different when we do something similar?"

Also i don't think a sanctuary city infringes on people's individual freedoms to the same extent as Whitmer saying you can't go up to your secondary residence that You own, telling you can't buy seeds or paint, or drive your boat if it has a motor.

Compounding the problem is the state legislature in MI tried to negotiate with Whitmer to be less draconian and she gave them the finger and rammed the policies through taunting the Republicans as she did it.

So now it’s two wrongs making a right? I like to think that conservatives will continue to take the high road. Lord knows someone has to.

[STTAB]

Maybe the sheriffs would make that argument against Whitmer and Ducey. "Well the left thumbed its nose at trump. How is it different when we do something similar?"

Also i don't think a sanctuary city infringes on people's individual freedoms to the same extent as Whitmer saying you can't go up to your secondary residence that You own, telling you can't buy seeds or paint, or drive your boat if it has a motor.

Compounding the problem is the state legislature in MI tried to negotiate with Whitmer to be less draconian and she gave them the finger and rammed the policies through taunting the Republicans as she did it.


Of course you don't see the people who are fighting polices you don't like as bad as you see the people fighting policies you do like.

Don't you intellectually see the problem with this line or reasoning? We can't just have a country where everyone is entitled to arm themselves and fight the police every time they disagree with a law, or order.

[Black Diamond]

And neither does the person infected by the barber or customers once they leave the salon.

The customers are there by choice. No one is forcing them to be there.

[Black Diamond]

Of course you don't see the people who are fighting polices you don't like as bad as you see the people fighting policies you do like.

Don't you intellectually see the problem with this line or reasoning? We can't just have a country where everyone is entitled to arm themselves and fight the police every time they disagree with a law, or order.

Of course you have no idea how I see things.

[Black Diamond]

So now it’s two wrongs making a right? I like to think that conservatives will continue to take the high road. Lord knows someone has to.

So you took this stance when the clerk refused to hand out marriage licenses to gay couples?

[STTAB]

Of course you have no idea how I see things.
You have literally told us how you see these things.

Or am I wrong and you're pro sanctuary cities and against employers opening up against the orders of Governors?

Of course I'm not wrong.

[STTAB]

So you took this stance when the clerk refused to hand out marriage licenses to gay couples?


I did, she should have resigned her job if she couldn't follow the damn law.

[Abbey Marie]

The customers are there by choice. No one is forcing them to be there.

I don’t think I can say this more clearly. Anyone they potentially infect outside the salon due to exercising their “freedom” has no choice. Anyone they interact with in the grocery store, the home improvement store, post office, Walmart, on line anywhere, etc., etc. Once the numbers go down for 14 days, we can all get those super-important haircuts. Believe me, I’m looking pretty raggedy right now.

[Black Diamond]

You have literally told us how you see these things.

Or am I wrong and you're pro sanctuary cities and against employers opening up against the orders of Governors?

Of course I'm not wrong.

I told you how these pissed off people in MI are seeing things. I don't think the militia should stand in front of the barber shop and challenge the cops. That's what it was. A challenge.

[STTAB]

I told you how these pissed off people in MI are seeing things. I don't think the militia should stand in front of the barber shop and challenge the cops. That's what it was. A challenge.


If you don't think they should have done so, then why are you defending them? If you're just playing devil's advocate, fine.

[Abbey Marie]

So you took this stance when the clerk refused to hand out marriage licenses to gay couples?

I don’t recall if I took any stance, but I will say that you need to follow your employer’s rules, and if you cannot, you need to find another job. Same way I felt about all that kneeling during NFL games. Go protest on your own dime and time. But this is getting tangential, now.

[Black Diamond]

If you don't think they should have done so, then why are you defending them? If you're just playing devil's advocate, fine.

Devils advocate. Yes.

[STTAB]

Devils advocate. Yes.

I can dig that.

[Black Diamond]

I did, she should have resigned her job if she couldn't follow the damn law.

I am sure you did. :cool:

[Abbey Marie]

And this, ladies and germs, is how you debate well and without getting personal.

:coffee:

[STTAB]

I am sure you did. :cool:


I did, I don't remember if I was posting here then or not, but my principles are of utmost importance to me.

[Black Diamond]

Very good convo y'all.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If you can guarantee that your haircut, and everyone else’s, won’t result in further spreading a deadly virus, I’m with you. But once your “freedom to do what you want” endangers others’ life, it’s not so clear cut, is it?

As I’ve mentioned here before, we use that argument against abortion all the time- it’s not just the mother’s life (read:freedom) in play. There is a baby whose life is about to be snuffed out. The left argues back that regardless, a woman should have complete autonomy over her body, and that it is a Constitutional right at that. And that her freedom trumps the baby’s life.

I say at the very least, if we are going to argue that we must be able to behave as we wish, on the bases of freedom and the Constitution, we need to do so consistently.


If you can guarantee that your haircut, and everyone else’s, won’t result in further spreading a deadly virus, I’m with you.

hmmmm, wouldn't that be an impossibility my friend? A guarantee?

Can you guarantee that it would infect other people?
I mean how so- if neither I or the barber were infected..
Everything in life is a gamble-as life is itself a gamble.

A strict adherence to the hiding away from others and stopping the world does not give a 100% guarantee unless one ---never-- stops taking that action.

Questions seems to be how just deep are we to hide and just how long?

If the world--must-- continue to function--then who gets to answer those two main questions?

Should it be each governor--or should it be the President, or should it be each town, each city, each county?

I go back to either declare Martial Law for the entire nation and force every citizen to obey these varying/arbitrary decrees or else admit the first break down came from not following the Constitution and the authority it gives the leader of this nation- the President.

That militia did an exercise in civil disobedience. They functioned without violence, the cops came and functioned without violence.

These arbitrary decrees by these governor are and will face judicial scrutiny in the coming days/weeks.months/years.

Problem is once we become conditioned to bowing down to the whims of local officials that assume powers their offices do not have- we are on the road towards breaking up as a nation.

To me that militia did almost exactly as did the militia's that opposed the British before ever the first shot was fired..

I have the right as a citizen to think that, give that opinion just as you have the same right to disagree.
And neither one of us can give any guarantees we are 100% correct in the opinions/judgments we have made on this very highly controversial issue,correct?

As my father and grandfather used to say often, , "wait-time will tell"..--Tyr

edit - below is my comment made on the recent Wisconsin verdict handed down-



https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/13/855782006/wisconsin-supreme-court-overturns-the-states-stay-at-home-order

The novel coronavirus, first detected at the end of 2019, has caused a global pandemic.
Coronavirus Live Updates
THE CORONAVIRUS CRISIS
Wisconsin Supreme Court Overturns The State's Stay-At-Home Orders


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I have said all along- they were issuing edicts that are allowed only once Martial Law has been declared.
I never saw Martial Law declared. Governors had no such such Constitutional authority. A fact.
Under the guise of protecting citizens, some of them blatantly and illegally engaged in actions assuming dictatorial powers.
Closing businesses, arresting and fining citizens, etc... A fact..-Tyr

There the court rendered a verdict pretty much backed my views about unconstitutional grabs by these governors...-Tyr

[Russ]

To throw my two cents in, I think it crazy for a shop-owner to bring a militia to barbershop. The essential idea is that if police show up they will start shooting, or at least threaten to.

Its actually CRAZIER, though, that a Governor would hear about this and send in the National Guard with guns. She is almost begging for a tragic incident by doing that. She should have waited a while for things to cool down. She is dam lucky that no National Guard, militia, or barbershop customers got killed or crippled by her orders. And I have to wonder if politics played a part in this. Gov Whitmer is an avid liberal and is on the short list of possible VP picks for Biden. Maybe getting to the top of that short list was a major factor in her decision?

I also agree with Tyr, that Governors probably don't have the authority to make some of these proclamations, at least not without their state legislature, or a declaration of emergency.

[Kathianne]

I've come to a point where I don't think that closing up everything is a great idea. Both economic and social needs are being impacted for too many that are not at risk. What is missing is respect for the other point of view-on both sides.

Those that are most vulnerable, need to keep taking the extreme measures that were advocated, though not done, by all. They must protect themselves, the government is not going to do it for them. Realistically, it may well continue until/IF there is a vaccine. It sucks.

Those that have been so strongly advocating for 'opening up', need to take a look at how irresponsible people are being and have been. From 'civil disobedience' groups, without masks, social distancing, etc. In MI and WI both, there clusters of breakout from those that gathered again without any precautions, spending lots of time yelling, (spitting) to be heard. In MI they also entered the capital and en masse tramped up a staircase. Brilliant. I was pleased yesterday to see the WI Supreme Ct ruled the stay home order unconstitutional. 45 minutes later, bars were jammed with young adults crammed together.

Adults-real adults-need to shame those that aren't doing what is right to protect each other, including keeping down the viral load that will trickle down to the most vulnerable in one method or another.

We need to keep space between each other-masks or not, your choice. Respect each others choices. Personally, I wish that businesses would require everyone to wear mouth/nose coverings, but I will do so. At least give others space, that does nothing to your rights.

I won't have government telling everyone that they must stay home, it's wrong at this point. At the same time, there is no way that I'm going to gatherings, flying on a plane, etc. I'll take risks, but not stupid risks.

[Abbey Marie]

I suspect that if I tried to shame folks for taking risks, they’d just call me a Karen.

Interesting that there have been outbreaks where folks are gathering again. That’s just what I knew would happen, and it will just get worse. Delaware’s governor is reopening the pools and the beaches on May22nd, though our cases are not decreasing, and of the 13 deaths we had yesterday, half of them had no underlying conditions.

What sucks for me is, once things reopen, my own family will be forced to take risks just to go back to work. When they shop, get gas, etc., there will be a lot more people rubbing elbows. We all know it’s true, it’s already happening. And what they bring home to me as a result is anyone’s guess. But hey, that’s ok, I’ll be staying home myself, and that’s good enough for me, according to the “open up now” crowd. :rolleyes:

I am not advocating for total closure forever. Just can we please wait until the numbers go down for two weeks? Is that really too much to ask?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

To throw my two cents in, I think it crazy for a shop-owner to bring a militia to barbershop. The essential idea is that if police show up they will start shooting, or at least threaten to.

Its actually CRAZIER, though, that a Governor would hear about this and send in the National Guard with guns. She is almost begging for a tragic incident by doing that. She should have waited a while for things to cool down. She is dam lucky that no National Guard, militia, or barbershop customers got killed or crippled by her orders. And I have to wonder if politics played a part in this. Gov Whitmer is an avid liberal and is on the short list of possible VP picks for Biden. Maybe getting to the top of that short list was a major factor in her decision?

I also agree with Tyr, that Governors probably don't have the authority to make some of these proclamations, at least not without their state legislature, or a declaration of emergency.

And it not just governors, sometimes it is city mayors, or the average cop on patrol arresting, etc.. a person on some vague interpretation of some arbitrary decree.
All of this is new, and much of it is based upon lies told by certain groups- especially a certain political party to achieve certain political goals.Those applying the Alinsky -- "never let a good crisis go to waste"..
It is a medical issue that has been so corrupted by politics that chaos was guaranteed to occur--as was citizen protests, imho.--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I suspect that if I tried to shame folks for taking risks, they’d just call me a Karen.

Interesting that there have been outbreaks where folks are gathering again. That’s just what I knew would happen, and it will just get worse. Delaware’s governor is reopening the pools and the beaches on May22nd, though our cases are not decreasing, and of the 13 dead we had yesterday, half of them had no underlying conditions.

What sucks for me is, once things reopen, my own family will be forced to take risks just to go back to work. When they shop, Get gas, etc., there will be a lot more people rubbing elbows. We all know it’s true, it’s already happening. And what they bring home to me as a result is anyone’s guess. But hey, that’s ok, I’ll be staying home myself, and that’s good enough for me according to the “open up now” crowd. :rolleyes:

I am not advocating for total closure forever. Just can we please wait until the numbers go down for two weeks? Is that really too much to ask?

My friend, I never viewed your stand as -trying to shame any person. I see merit in it myself.
The problem is nobody has enough information to form a cohesive and better uniform plan on how to handle this real threat.
My main issue is the politicians that are assuming powers that they do not have. Then police acting upon those unconstitutional /illegal decrees.
I think it is absolutely correct for those most at risk to stay in and not go out unless it is absolutely necessary.
As I would so limit myself if that was possible but in my case it is not, as it is also the case in millions of others that have the same problem...
Sad truth is, the world can not stop because of this virus. --Tyr

[Abbey Marie]

12609

[Kathianne]

I've come to a point where I don't think that closing up everything is a great idea. Both economic and social needs are being impacted for too many that are not at risk. What is missing is respect for the other point of view-on both sides.

Those that are most vulnerable, need to keep taking the extreme measures that were advocated, though not done, by all. They must protect themselves, the government is not going to do it for them. Realistically, it may well continue until/IF there is a vaccine. It sucks.

Those that have been so strongly advocating for 'opening up', need to take a look at how irresponsible people are being and have been. From 'civil disobedience' groups, without masks, social distancing, etc. In MI and WI both, there clusters of breakout from those that gathered again without any precautions, spending lots of time yelling, (spitting) to be heard. In MI they also entered the capital and en masse tramped up a staircase. Brilliant. I was pleased yesterday to see the WI Supreme Ct ruled the stay home order unconstitutional. 45 minutes later, bars were jammed with young adults crammed together.

Adults-real adults-need to shame those that aren't doing what is right to protect each other, including keeping down the viral load that will trickle down to the most vulnerable in one method or another.

We need to keep space between each other-masks or not, your choice. Respect each others choices. Personally, I wish that businesses would require everyone to wear mouth/nose coverings, but I will do so. At least give others space, that does nothing to your rights.

I won't have government telling everyone that they must stay home, it's wrong at this point. At the same time, there is no way that I'm going to gatherings, flying on a plane, etc. I'll take risks, but not stupid risks.


This is wrong, for the same reasons that gathering in crowds at the beaches in March were. Though in March, much less was known:

https://hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/c.png

[Black Diamond]

This is wrong, for the same reasons that gathering in crowds at the beaches in March were. Though in March, much less was known:

https://hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/c.png

Holy.....

Hell.

[Russ]

...

I also agree with Tyr, that Governors probably don't have the authority to make some of these proclamations, at least not without their state legislature, or a declaration of emergency.

By the way, to be clear I should say that I think the lockdowns were needed. They were. What happened in Italy showed us that.

I'm just saying that Governors now seem to think they have a lot of leeway to make broad, sweeping edicts telling everyone in their jurisdiction what they can and cannot do. That's called "laws" and it is up to the state legislature. Governors actually do have leeway to do this kind of stuff during times of a declared emergency. This pandemic is an emergency, but I don't think a single Governor has declared an emergency. They need to do that, to make it clear they are acting under very TEMPORARY emergency powers.

[Abbey Marie]

This is wrong, for the same reasons that gathering in crowds at the beaches in March were. Though in March, much less was known:

https://hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/c.png

And age group noted...

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

By the way, to be clear I should say that I think the lockdowns were needed. They were. What happened in Italy showed us that.

I'm just saying that Governors now seem to think they have a lot of leeway to make broad, sweeping edicts telling everyone in their jurisdiction what they can and cannot do. That's called "laws" and it is up to the state legislature. Governors actually do have leeway to do this kind of stuff during times of a declared emergency. This pandemic is an emergency, but I don't think a single Governor has declared an emergency. They need to do that, to make it clear they are acting under very TEMPORARY emergency powers.

Also what was needed was law-- either a national declaration of martial law(Federal) or in cases where immediate and massively higher infections happen a legally established procedure to follow a course by established legal means-- as not in certain governors declaring they are Presidents(assuming Presidential powers) over those states that they have been elected as governors to be.
By circumventing law , they are acting as newly awarded dictators, imho.
We that were taught before the schools went to liberal hell see all this quite differently than these younger generations do.
We were actually taught civics and about this nation, its funding, our government powers and out rights.
And many of us bear the fruits of that greater education, that former teachings of truth and respect for our Bill of Rights and a most loyal and sincere respect for our Constitution., imho.....
At least we that took it to heart did and still do, my friend..-Tyr

[Kathianne]

If you can guarantee that your haircut, and everyone else’s, won’t result in further spreading a deadly virus, I’m with you. But once your “freedom to do what you want” endangers others’ life, it’s not so clear cut, is it?

As I’ve mentioned here before, we use that argument against abortion all the time- it’s not just the mother’s life (read:freedom) in play. There is a baby whose life is about to be snuffed out. The left argues back that regardless, a woman should have complete autonomy over her body, and that it is a Constitutional right at that. And that her freedom trumps the baby’s life.

I say at the very least, if we are going to argue that we must be able to behave as we wish, on the bases of freedom and the Constitution, we need to do so consistently.
It's not 'so clear cut.' We agree on that. Abortion is wrong, near everyone here agrees with that. Though, if it will save the mother, especially if there are other children? Even hospitals that agree with us, will perform an abortion to save her life.

Euthanasia and suicide are wrong, I presume we agree with that? Yet even the religious have long supported a patient and family that want a DNR or 'no extraordinary means' to be taken.

Sanctity of life is a cornerstone of Christian-Judaeo teachings, if more actually thought of faith, there would be more respect for life without a doubt. Yet, throughout time there are caveats to 'Thou Shalt Not Kill.' Just war. Preserving your life in self-defense that results in the other's death, being two examples.

I certainly would go with the 'at least two weeks declining' numbers, though 'two weeks' seems to perhaps be as arbitrary as any other number? As long as there isn't a vaccine or the virus dies through its own life cycle, as soon as a host appears the fire will start again. I don't think the economy can wait that long, I know people aren't going to wait that long.

[SassyLady]

I don’t think I can say this more clearly. Anyone they potentially infect outside the salon due to exercising their “freedom” has no choice. Anyone they interact with in the grocery store, the home improvement store, post office, Walmart, on line anywhere, etc., etc. Once the numbers go down for 14 days, we can all get those super-important haircuts. Believe me, I’m looking pretty raggedy right now.

Abbey, just curious. Are you saying no business should be open ... not even grocery stores? That everyone should stay locked in their houses until there are 14 straight days, even if that takers 3 months?

Because I am probably exposed to more people at grocery store than at barber shop.

[SassyLady]

Question for anyone. I have concealed carry permit, I carry gun everywhere, and if I choose to protest outside a facility does that make me a part of militia?

[CSM]

Question for anyone. I have concealed carry permit, I carry gun everywhere, and if I choose to protest outside a facility does that make me a part of militia?

Makes you a nazi... extreme right winger.... bible thumper..... and oh so DESPICABLE!!!!

[SassyLady]

Makes you a nazi... extreme right winger.... bible thumper..... and oh so DESPICABLE!!!!

But sexy and smart like conservative women.

[CSM]

but sexy and smart like conservative women.

indeed!

[STTAB]

I've come to a point where I don't think that closing up everything is a great idea. Both economic and social needs are being impacted for too many that are not at risk. What is missing is respect for the other point of view-on both sides.

Those that are most vulnerable, need to keep taking the extreme measures that were advocated, though not done, by all. They must protect themselves, the government is not going to do it for them. Realistically, it may well continue until/IF there is a vaccine. It sucks.

Those that have been so strongly advocating for 'opening up', need to take a look at how irresponsible people are being and have been. From 'civil disobedience' groups, without masks, social distancing, etc. In MI and WI both, there clusters of breakout from those that gathered again without any precautions, spending lots of time yelling, (spitting) to be heard. In MI they also entered the capital and en masse tramped up a staircase. Brilliant. I was pleased yesterday to see the WI Supreme Ct ruled the stay home order unconstitutional. 45 minutes later, bars were jammed with young adults crammed together.

Adults-real adults-need to shame those that aren't doing what is right to protect each other, including keeping down the viral load that will trickle down to the most vulnerable in one method or another.

We need to keep space between each other-masks or not, your choice. Respect each others choices. Personally, I wish that businesses would require everyone to wear mouth/nose coverings, but I will do so. At least give others space, that does nothing to your rights.

I won't have government telling everyone that they must stay home, it's wrong at this point. At the same time, there is no way that I'm going to gatherings, flying on a plane, etc. I'll take risks, but not stupid risks.


This is what I don't get, early on when we didn't know much, sure, but now we do . We KNOW who this virus is likely to make seriously ill or kill. It is't me, the 48 year old man in great overall health with enough money to afford the best of medical care.

It's the fat slob who is easily over 200 lbs overweight, and so has diabetes and a heart condition. He (or she) needs to quarantine themselves. It's the person over 65 who has just general old people health , they need to quarantine themselves. It's people with compromised immune systems, they need to quarantine themselves.

The rest of us can take sensible precautions and go on about our lives.

What is especially galling is that the people who are being hailed as experts who we MUST listen to have been wrong so many times about this disease , and we listened to them every step of the way, but now trust them?

[Kathianne]

Question for anyone. I have concealed carry permit, I carry gun everywhere, and if I choose to protest outside a facility does that make me a part of militia?

I don't have an issue with conceal carry or guns in general. What is apparent though, some folks carry guns to make their points, that is not cool. Carrying rifles to a gathering that is to petition for opening up, with some members talking 'big' i.e., threatening words, is not cool. Not only for how the optics are, but there are some folks in any gathering that one does not know and does not necessarily even agree with, besides 'open up the economy, stop with the power grabs.'

I know you, you are not threatening, you are confident, and you are in control. Would you say the same of everyone at any meeting?

[STTAB]

I don't have an issue with conceal carry or guns in general. What is apparent though, some folks carry guns to make their points, that is not cool. Carrying rifles to a gathering that is to petition for opening up, with some members talking 'big' i.e., threatening words, is not cool. Not only for how the optics are, but there are some folks in any gathering that one does not know and does not necessarily even agree with, besides 'open up the economy, stop with the power grabs.'

I know you, you are not threatening, you are confident, and you are in control. Would you say the same of everyone at any meeting?


Agreed. People who open carry are usually doing so just to be obnoxious assholes.

[SassyLady]

I don't have an issue with conceal carry or guns in general. What is apparent though, some folks carry guns to make their points, that is not cool. Carrying rifles to a gathering that is to petition for opening up, with some members talking 'big' i.e., threatening words, is not cool. Not only for how the optics are, but there are some folks in any gathering that one does not know and does not necessarily even agree with, besides 'open up the economy, stop with the power grabs.'

I know you, you are not threatening, you are confident, and you are in control. Would you say the same of everyone at any meeting?
Nope! That's why I avoid situations like that. I pick my battles and this isn't one of them.

The last protest I attended was at a Tea Party event in downtown square of our small town in California many years ago. A speaker got up on picnic table with bullhorn and started to say something and I jumped up there with him and said we should start with pledge of allegiance. That was the extent of my protest leadership.

And, of course, being in California no one had guns.

[Black Diamond]

Question for anyone. I have concealed carry permit, I carry gun everywhere, and if I choose to protest outside a facility does that make me a part of militia?

No.

[Gunny]

Agreed. People who open carry are usually doing so just to be obnoxious assholes.I would say that depends on the concealed carry options available. It's legal here to open carry a long arm (not in the city of San Antonio but the State). It is not legal to carry concealed without a license ($), State-approved training ($) and in any place that posts a notice that you cannot, regardless license.

I am not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out there could be more reason than being an asshole. Besides, wouldn't that require you and I to carry a rifle everywhere we go?:laugh:

[STTAB]

Also what was needed was law-- either a national declaration of martial law(Federal) or in cases where immediate and massively higher infections happen a legally established procedure to follow a course by established legal means-- as not in certain governors declaring they are Presidents(assuming Presidential powers) over those states that they have been elected as governors to be.
By circumventing law , they are acting as newly awarded dictators, imho.
We that were taught before the schools went to liberal hell see all this quite differently than these younger generations do.
We were actually taught civics and about this nation, its funding, our government powers and out rights.
And many of us bear the fruits of that greater education, that former teachings of truth and respect for our Bill of Rights and a most loyal and sincere respect for our Constitution., imho.....
At least we that took it to heart did and still do, my friend..-Tyr


Wait a minute. Martial law would be declared by the President, and would be a total nationwide lockdown. You would be okay with that, but you're pissed that instead some Governors have locked down their states? LOL

[STTAB]

I would say that depends on the concealed carry options available. It's legal here to open carry a long arm (not in the city of San Antonio but the State). It is not legal to carry concealed without a license ($), State-approved training ($) and in any place that posts a notice that you cannot, regardless license.

I am not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out there could be more reason than being an asshole. Besides, wouldn't that require you and I to carry a rifle everywhere we go?:laugh:


ALL people who open carry are assholes, but not all assholes open carry :laugh:

I don't want people knowing I have a gun unless and until I need that gun myself.

But yeah, I was referring to people who show up at protests and shit open carrying, or just wander into a WM open carrying an AR or whatever, those people are just being assholes.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

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[STTAB]

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That's strange, cuz........


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?69855-Worthless-lying-coward

Seriously, putting someone on ignore because they embarass you in debate after debate is a pussy move all in of itself, but then when you double down and start flame threads about that person while having them on ignore, that's when you KNOW you are dealing with a giant vagina.

How does ANYONE here have ANY respect for Tyr at all? What a **** he is.

[Abbey Marie]

12617

[Gunny]

12617As far as the masks themselves go, I'm sure there "those" nitwits who see them as being controlled by the government. I still see people without them. You can be fined for going out in public without them here.

I think the majority just puts them on and soldiers on. I see it as protecting my family. I can do what I want but it's irresponsible to bring it home. That's how I feel about the situation addressed by the topic. I'm not telling anyone what to do or think. I'm stating what I think about it.

[Kathianne]

As far as the masks themselves go, I'm sure there "those" nitwits who see them as being controlled by the government. I still see people without them. You can be fined for going out in public without them here.

I think the majority just puts them on and soldiers on. I see it as protecting my family. I can do what I want but it's irresponsible to bring it home. That's how I feel about the situation addressed by the topic. I'm not telling anyone what to do or think. I'm stating what I think about it.
That's what I've been trying to do. I took this very seriously from the beginning, I spoke about how the exponential growth would occur. I'm glad to say that thus far, it wasn't near as bad as it could have been, what I thought it would be.

I think that we have to look at the economics of this and I'm not being, 'oh well, let them die.' Truth is, it's going to take quite a while for things to get good again, I want my kids and grandchildren to have a shot.

Because of my age and high blood pressure, I'm careful and will remain so. That doesn't mean that I'd go nutters on someone not masked. I will go 'Excuuuse me!' if they come too close to me. It works. ;) I wear a mask going into any store, for others and for myself. I appreciate those doing the same. I'm careful to stay well away from people. I use touchless pay checking out-Walmartpay or Applepay.

I change my clothes after working, usually take a shower. I leave my shoes outside, then Lysol them and let them sit there.

If I had other factors regarding vulnerability, I certainly wouldn't work or shop for awhile, I'd want to see where things were going for a month or two. OTOH, if I were 30 years younger I'd be going nuts and would by this time want to get with some friends and certainly get my kids with someone other than myself.

What's missing from all this right now is being civil. Give and receive grace. Let kids get with their friends, let parents remind their kids to stay away from neighbors that do not have kids, especially if they are older.

My sons, the liberals, they have been using their 'at home' worktime to cook. (@Abbey I bet you're not surprised!) About a month and 1/2 ago, they were facetiming with each other and their wives. They came up with an idea I thought was cool.

They wrote notes to older neighbors saying that they were working on some dishes and would like to share. They let them know they'd be wearing gloves and masks and if they'd like to try some, they'd drop it off and call so they could just pick it up. Between the two families, they had about 15 people that wanted in. They bought some divided take out plates and have been doing that on weekends. The other day the son in Naperville had a 5' pool delivered, seems the oldsters wanted to say thank you.

Younger son is like, 'Sure! The one with the big house gets a pool! I'm stuck in a condo!' LOL! They are hoping to have some neighbor BBQs this summer, which should be nice with no fests or 4th of July festivities. I just wish that more people would help one another.

[STTAB]

As far as the masks themselves go, I'm sure there "those" nitwits who see them as being controlled by the government. I still see people without them. You can be fined for going out in public without them here.

I think the majority just puts them on and soldiers on. I see it as protecting my family. I can do what I want but it's irresponsible to bring it home. That's how I feel about the situation addressed by the topic. I'm not telling anyone what to do or think. I'm stating what I think about it.


If I lived somewhere where this virus was even a moderate problem I would do the same. Our little county in Arkansas has had FOUR cases total. I've been to the grocery store once a week and Wal Mart a total of once since the beginning of April, other than that the only places we have been was to our restaraunt in Branson a few times to do some things there that need to be done (IE give away a lot of free food that was set to spoil soon if we just let it sit there) we DID wear masks when we did that, but around our little town? Nah. A lot of people do though, and meh whatever makes them comfortable.