UK plans 14-day quarantine for incoming travelers

[jimnyc]

So should we ban potentially sick folks leaving the UK or elsewhere from coming into our country? What about all the other tons of countries opening or planning on doing so very shortly, and folks all mostly free to travel?

How do we handle international traffic going forward?

--

UK plans 14-day quarantine for incoming travelers

Britain plans to impose a two-week quarantine on people arriving in the country, other than from Ireland, in a bid to prevent a new wave of coronavirus infections, according to an airline industry group, Airlines UK.

The government is expected to provide details of its plans on Sunday, but the move highlights the acute challenge facing political leaders as they contemplate how to begin lifting the containment measures that have slowed the spread of the virus without unleashing a new surge in infections.

In Britain's case, the plan also illustrates the imperatives and the difficulties of coordinating with neighboring countries and those with the closest or most numerous travel connections.

The EU has been trying to align the approaches of its 27 member countries, which together imposed a ban on non-essential travelers from outside the bloc. At that time, the EU announced it would treat U.K. citizens the same as EU residents.

But the U.K., which quit the EU earlier this year, now has responsibility for its own arrangements. It must take particular account of Ireland because of the two countries' Common Travel Area.

As news of Britain's plans emerged on Saturday, a French official said that Paris would request a collaborative approach.

“We are working on getting an exception for EU and Schengen citizens, but if we don’t agree on one, a reciprocal quarantine for British citizens entering the EU and Schengen will have to be imposed,” a French diplomatic official told POLITICO.

Airlines UK said that government officials had told airline companies they plan to impose the quarantine. But the industry body said it was waiting to learn details of the plan.

"Public health must of course be the priority," the group said in a statement. "We will be asking for assurances that this decision has been led by the science and that Government has a credible exit plan, with weekly reviews to ensure the restrictions are working and still required."

“Alongside this, we also need to see a number of new support measures to see airlines through this period so that we still have a UK aviation sector once the quarantine period is lifted."

Rest - https://news.yahoo.com/uk-plans-14-day-quarantine-141222490.html

[Abbey Marie]

And exactly what will the airlines do if they do not receive the assurance they demand here? Stop fllying into the UK forever? I highly doubt it. These seem like pointless demands by the airlines, since I don't see that they have any serious clout behind them.

[Black Diamond]

And exactly what will the airlines do if they do not receive the assurance they demand here? Stop fllying into the UK forever? I highly doubt it. These seem like pointless demands by the airlines, since I dont see that they have any clout behind them.

May be like your experience at the Thai restaurant: you must wear masks. Or maybe not.

[Abbey Marie]

May be like your experience at the Thai restaurant: you must wear masks. Or maybe not.

Yeah, we are all pretty much flying blind (pun intended) now.

[Black Diamond]

Yeah, we are all pretty much flying blind (pun intended) now.

I wonder if authorities just think we can't keep going on like this.

[Kathianne]

I think it’s within their rights. As it is not to go there or conform with their rules.

[Abbey Marie]

I think it’s within their rights. As it is not to go there or conform with their rules.

I think it is, but my point is it is a hollow threat. Airlines would never exit a market as big as the entire UK.

[Kathianne]

I think it is, but my point is it is a hollow threat. Airlines would never exit a market as big as the entire UK.
They won't have a problem, it's those flying that will, no? I don't know many people that want to go to Europe and spend two weeks inside. Even if one has a month or two, that's a huge chunk of time.

[Drummond]

I think it’s within their rights. As it is not to go there or conform with their rules.

Thank you. That is reasonable.

We are completely within our rights to make sure that we don't import infection from a deadly pathogen !!!

Besides which, had the US given us an assurance that they would lock down their borders if a 'Wuhan-on-steroids' was on the cards, other countries would not feel they had to protect themselves from even the possibility of that threat.

So, as matters stand, we do one of two things:

1. We protect ourselves, as indeed we have.

2. We let America dictate to us the level of threat their relaxation of lockdown rules foists upon us.

You know which of those options we've gone with.

And, why not ? WE, TOO, have the right to be free to consider OUR people.

Talking about a Government considering its people ... and doing its best for them ... here's Boris's speech transmitted on our airwaves around 3.5 hours ago. It concerns Boris's understanding of how best we must proceed to help safeguard lives.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Ch1RImdOw

Tell me, if you can, that such a Government doesn't deserve trust and obedience ... with clear, coherent direction, science-based.

[Kathianne]

Thank you. That is reasonable.

We are completely within our rights to make sure that we don't import infection from a deadly pathogen !!!

Besides which, had the US given us an assurance that they would lock down their borders if a 'Wuhan-on-steroids' was on the cards, other countries would not feel they had to protect themselves from even the possibility of that threat.

So, as matters stand, we do one of two things:

1. We protect ourselves, as indeed we have.

2. We let America dictate to us the level of threat their relaxation of lockdown rules foists upon us.

You know which of those options we've gone with.

And, why not ? WE, TOO, have the right to be free to consider OUR people.

Talking about a Government considering its people ... and doing its best for them ... here's Boris's speech transmitted on our airwaves around 3.5 hours ago. It concerns Boris's understanding of how best we must proceed to help safeguard lives.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9Ch1RImdOw

Tell me, if you can, that such a Government doesn't deserve trust and obedience ... with clear, coherent direction, science-based.

I hate to tell you this, but the same things have been coming from our government and scientists. Nothing new there.

What we do agree with is that each country needs to do what they think best for itself and it's interests. All should be transparent, such as the US has been and now the UK has been regarding the quarantine for all entering. That's fine, those that travel will have to decide where and whether to visit, but currently that is totally a moot point.

[Kathianne]

and here's the BBC, rounding up what Johnson said, along with reporting all the information that many of us have been saying for weeks. Interesting indeed.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-52543692

...


Putting risk in perspective is going to be essential for individuals and decision-makers, the authors suggest.
If we do, we may learn to live with coronavirus. We may have to.




The Telegraph:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/boris-johnson-speech-live-end-lockdown-watch-coronavirus-address/

Again, the speech is just a longer version of US, though nationwide. All of the US, with the exception of NYC, NJ, and a small slice of CT have much lower per capita death rate than UK.

[Drummond]

I hate to tell you this, but the same things have been coming from our government and scientists. Nothing new there.

What we do agree with is that each country needs to do what they think best for itself and it's interests. All should be transparent, such as the US has been and now the UK has been regarding the quarantine for all entering. That's fine, those that travel will have to decide where and whether to visit, but currently that is totally a moot point.

You realise that we're in danger of agreeing again ?? Steady on, there .... :rolleyes:

If you believed our media, you'd believe that Trump recommended people inject themselves with bleach. James O'Brien made that claim, on LBC, again, last Friday.

I really wish that the US had embarked on a policy which said, 'OK, we'll unlock as we choose, BUT, we'll be responsible enough not to make other countries live (or die) with that decision. Such a shame it did no such thing, because, and despite Black Diamond's thinking, it does open up the US to a charge of some equivalency with China.

If - and, especially if - a second pandemic originates from US territory, and carries a mutation with it, and if this gets past other countries' safeguards, you run the risk of earning comparable blame to that which very rightly applies to China. You'll lose a moral high ground in such circumstances.

I've one other criticism, and I'd like your help with it.

If, in fact, the US Government has been doing the equivalent of ours .. then, why would anybody (other than Lefties, of course) be at all inclined to defy them ? Why is it even a consideration ? How did you get to have rogue Governors who show a contempt for their citizens' health and wellbeing, and strive to end lockdowns far sooner than is wise ??

Do people defy Government because it's fashionable to ? Or, because of dim echoes of history from another age entirely ?

Why can't people just accept good Government, stop rebelling against it, and just MAYBE, improve their life expectancies into the bargain ??

[Kathianne]

You realise that we're in danger of agreeing again ?? Steady on, there .... :rolleyes:

If you believed our media, you'd believe that Trump recommended people inject themselves with bleach. James O'Brien made that claim, on LBC, again, last Friday.

I really wish that the US had embarked on a policy which said, 'OK, we'll unlock as we choose, BUT, we'll be responsible enough not to make other countries live (or die) with that decision. Such a shame it did no such thing, because, and despite Black Diamond's thinking, it does open up the US to a charge of some equivalency with China.

If - and, especially if - a second pandemic originates from US territory, and carries a mutation with it, and if this gets past other countries' safeguards, you run the risk of earning comparable blame to that which very rightly applies to China. You'll lose a moral high ground in such circumstances.

I've one other criticism, and I'd like your help with it.

If, in fact, the US Government has been doing the equivalent of ours .. then, why would anybody (other than Lefties, of course) be at all inclined to defy them ? Why is it even a consideration ? How did you get to have rogue Governors who show a contempt for their citizens' health and wellbeing, and strive to end lockdowns far sooner than is wise ??

Do people defy Government because it's fashionable to ? Or, because of dim echoes of history from another age entirely ?

Why can't people just accept good Government, stop rebelling against it, and just MAYBE, improve their life expectancies into the bargain ??
One size doesn't fit all here. You refuse to listen but once again: with the exception of NYC, NJ, and a bit of CT, our numbers are much more in line with Germany, not UK. It's not feasible to work with the worst hit in setting goals, as the federal government may not impose anything along those line on the states.

[Drummond]

One size doesn't fit all here. You refuse to listen but once again: with the exception of NYC, NJ, and a bit of CT, our numbers are much more in line with Germany, not UK. It's not feasible to work with the worst hit in setting goals, as the federal government may not impose anything along those line on the states.

In line with Germany ?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Germany: total cases, 171,780. Deaths : 7,560 in total.

USA: total cases, 1,365,357. Deaths: 80,719 in total.

Population of Germany: 83 million

Population of USA: approx 330 million.

So the US's population is around 4 times the size of Germany's.

Multiply 171,780 by 4 = 687,120. Not 1,365,357.

Multiply 7,560 by 4 = 30,240. Not 80,719.

[Kathianne]

In line with Germany ?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Germany: total cases, 171,780. Deaths : 7,560 in total.

USA: total cases, 1,365,357. Deaths: 80,719 in total.

Population of Germany: 83 million

Population of USA: approx 330 million.

So the US's population is around 4 times the size of Germany's.

Multiply 171,780 by 4 = 687,120. Not 1,365,357.

Multiply 7,560 by 4 = 30,240. Not 80,719.

Once again, with the exception of NYC, NJ, and a part of CT... (told you that you refused to listen).

[jimnyc]

Amazing that the UK has one of the worst infection rates and mortality rates compared to so many others - and while they want to protect incoming, I don't see them taking massive precautions or completely blocking off outgoing folks completely. Sure hope they don't get anyone else sick with such irresponsibility and recklessness. That's why others in the EU are talking about doing the same to the UK to protect themselves. But they shouldn't need to protect themselves, as science and goodness and humanity will protect them.

Might I advise a useless N95 mask to some. Might help protect some from such criminal actions dropped on neighbors. :dunno:

[Drummond]

Amazing that the UK has one of the worst infection rates and mortality rates compared to so many others - and while they want to protect incoming,

You mean, they should only take protection measures if infection rates / mortality rates are low ? Surely, with high rates, the UK has more on its plate, and all the more reason not to want to see it added to ?

Perhaps, with those high rates, us Brits should just throw our hands in the air, and cry out (sounding anguished) 'WE'RE DOOMED ... DOOMED !!!'. And then just give up.


I don't see them taking massive precautions or completely blocking off outgoing folks completely.

You refer to Ireland ? They only have low infection rates. But then, their own lockdown rules have been more stringent than ours.


Sure hope they don't get anyone else sick with such irresponsibility and recklessness.

You accept the basis for these decisions ? I'm delighted.


That's why others in the EU are talking about doing the same to the UK to protect themselves.

Sounds fine. I don't begrudge anyone's right to protect their populations against Covid-19. Why would I ?

If you remember, I argued against Trump initially exempting the UK from his Europe-wide travel ban to the US. I had good reason to. Trump's not including the UK at the time made no sense to me. Luckily, he included the UK, days later.


But they shouldn't need to protect themselves, as science and goodness and humanity will protect them.

You forgot to add: SHEER COMMONSENSE.

Science will undoubtedly be invaluable, yes (you doubt this ?).

Goodness ... certainly ! Better that, than to have evil in charge, yes ?

Humanity ... again, certainly. A humanitarian Government is a very good thing indeed. Who should we wish for instead .. a latter-day Hitler ??


Might I advise a useless N95 mask to some. Might help protect some from such criminal actions dropped on neighbors. :dunno:

Whoever said, at all, ever, that the N95 masks were useless ? Unless you're arguing that all masks work as well as the comparatively rare N95, I don't see your point.

[jimnyc]

You condemn the USA for if they would allow any outgoing traffic, as it may reach other countries. But no plan do I see for the UK to block their own outgoing traffic, and not a peep about such recklessness. Sure, protect incoming, but no care about others. Shouldn't they receive the same contempt? Of course not.

[Abbey Marie]

You condemn the USA for if they would allow any outgoing traffic, as it may reach other countries. But no plan do I see for the UK to block their own outgoing traffic, and not a peep about such recklessness. Sure, protect incoming, but no care about others. Shouldn't they receive the same contempt? Of course not.

Jim raises a good point, Drummond. I’m interested to see your take.

[STTAB]

Jim raises a good point, Drummond. I’m interested to see your take.


Seems backwards to me to quarantine the arrivals. Would make more sense to quarantine departures, and now allow arrivals from countries who don't also quarantine departures.

This way you quarantine the sick BEFORE they get on a damn plane and infect everyone on the plane.

I mean if you're going to quarantine anyone.

[jimnyc]

Jim raises a good point, Drummond. I’m interested to see your take.

Don't hold your breath. He's seen it asked like 12 times and ignores it. After all the criminal talk about our country, and how horrid we are if we don't block traffic and just how WRONG we are. But when/if the UK does the same, there WILL be a reason that it's different somehow. Maybe the potential lives THEY put on the line are maybe less important? I sure would hate to see them act like China and just allow people to leave.

https://i.imgur.com/MC6pDDU.jpg <--- weirdest sign post I ever passed, as I have taken both arrows, and oddly both streets led back to the same place? :confused:

[NightTrain]

14 Day inbound quarantine is exactly what Alaska has been doing for quite a while now.

It seems to work.

[Abbey Marie]

And then there’s this loveliness:




12600

[Black Diamond]

And then there’s this loveliness:




12600

Normally mild mannered?? Still water runs deep??

[Abbey Marie]

Normally mild mannered?? Still water runs deep??

He is quite mild-mannered. But we all have our limits, and pols are used to getting their way.
I think they may have poked a sleeping bear.

[Black Diamond]

He is quite mild-mannered. But we all have our limits, and pols are used to getting their way.
I think they may have poked a sleeping bear.

Yeah I was wondering in general about the "still water runs deep" saying. The person who told me that is anything but mild mannered.

[Drummond]

Don't hold your breath. He's seen it asked like 12 times and ignores it. After all the criminal talk about our country, and how horrid we are if we don't block traffic and just how WRONG we are. But when/if the UK does the same, there WILL be a reason that it's different somehow. Maybe the potential lives THEY put on the line are maybe less important? I sure would hate to see them act like China and just allow people to leave.

https://i.imgur.com/MC6pDDU.jpg <--- weirdest sign post I ever passed, as I have taken both arrows, and oddly both streets led back to the same place? :confused:

This almost isn't even worth answering.

So far as I know, the UK is neither slamming its borders shut to outgoing flights, nor does it have plans in the pipeline to do this.

That may change. But I'm not aware that it will.

Why was this almost not even worth answering ? Easy. Check this lot out ..... >>

I think the UK population is currently 65 million.

We've been operating strict lockdown rules, which are, only now, being VERY modestly relaxed, just for England (Scotland, Wales, N Ireland ... carrying on almost exactly as before).

Compare our population size with China.

Compare our population size with the US.

Getting the picture ?

Are we hiding our Covid-19 infection rates, as China did ?

Are we threatening the world with rogue States that are intent upon wholesale relaxation ?

NO to both ... in case I need to say it.

So, anybody ... tell me. How do we pose any 'comparable' risk to other countries, as China definitely has, and as the US threatens to ?

So let's have no more of any attempts at an equivalency argument. We in the UK are taking stringent measures, as we have for ages now, to not let the virus be so successful that its chances of mutation are enhanced (meaning, most probably, a more virulent strain being released). How does that compare with what the US is moving towards ?

I trust that this ends the argument ? Equivalency is a joke in these circumstances. Besides which, I cannot say that a total lockdown won't occur, should our infection rates become far worse. Maybe it will.

But we do know that the US, despite what it threatens, has announced no such border lockdown.

Anybody care to surprise me with a good counter-argument ? You're certainly invited to give it your best shot.

Keep the abuse to a minimum, if replying. I want good, logical, reasoned argument ... & not diversionary bluster. Thank you.

P.S

By the way, UK airport traffic (no doubt mirroring the rest of the world these days ?) is slowed to a small trickle, compared to what it was at the beginning of the year, say. When I last checked, it was reduced by 95%. It's probably reduced even more now. Oh, and by the way, UK citizens DO break lockdown rules, if they take flights out of the UK that can't be categorised as essential (that's just a part of our domestic lockdown regime, as it currently stands).

Consider that, why don't you .... ?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/travel-advice-novel-coronavirus#do-not-travel-abroad-unless-its-essential


Do not travel abroad unless it’s essential

The FCO (Foreign & Commonwealth Office) advised British people against all non-essential travel worldwide. This applies for an indefinite period due to unprecedented international border closures and other restrictions. All countries may restrict travel without notice. 

To change or cancel your travel plans, follow these steps:

Contact your airline, travel company, cruise line or other transport and accommodation providers
Get in touch with your insurance provider.

[Kathianne]

This almost isn't even worth answering.

So far as I know, the UK is neither slamming its borders shut to outgoing flights, nor does it have plans in the pipeline to do this.

That may change. But I'm not aware that it will.

Why was this almost not even worth answering ? Easy. Check this lot out ..... >>

I think the UK population is currently 65 million.

We've been operating strict lockdown rules, which are, only now, being VERY modestly relaxed, just for England (Scotland, Wales, N Ireland ... carrying on almost exactly as before).

Compare our population size with China.

Compare our population size with the US.

Getting the picture ?

Are we hiding our Covid-19 infection rates, as China did ?

Are we threatening the world with rogue States that are intent upon wholesale relaxation ?

NO to both ... in case I need to say it.

So, anybody ... tell me. How do we pose any 'comparable' risk to other countries, as China definitely has, and as the US threatens to ?

So let's have no more of any attempts at an equivalency argument. We in the UK are taking stringent measures, as we have for ages now, to not let the virus be so successful that its chances of mutation are enhanced (meaning, most probably, a more virulent strain being released). How does that compare with what the US is moving towards ?

I trust that this ends the argument ? Equivalency is a joke in these circumstances. Besides which, I cannot say that a total lockdown won't occur, should our infection rates become far worse. Maybe it will.

But we do know that the US, despite what it threatens, has announced no such border lockdown.

Anybody care to surprise me with a good counter-argument ? You're certainly invited to give it your best shot.

Keep the abuse to a minimum, if replying. I want good, logical, reasoned argument ... & not diversionary bluster. Thank you.

Here's what I'm observing. From the get go, UK has run 10 days-3 weeks behind the US at every move. Makes sense, as US was hit first. For all your 'rational science and data driven moves,' they've mimicked the US for the most part.

Your lockdown is no more rigorous than the US, likely not as tight as NYC/NJ/CT were under.

GA, the state your are so fearful of? Rates keep going down, as they were by the time this 'opening up' was announced. There's an argument to be made that GA governor really was announcing what the President wants to see, but the President had to bring up, 'could hold off a bit on some of the plans,' not defining a 'bit.' Indeed, with the White House right now containing many that are positive, there still has been hesitancy for masks, until today. They announced that all employees must wear masks at all times, unless sitting at your own desk.
Not the message that the President wants while advocating opening, but it is what it is.

You don't know what we mean by opening and locking down, you just got something in your head and you will not stop with the insults and revealing just how anti-American you are. Some are surprised.

The state I'm in has not been hard hit, but even walking around the park pond-where there are no benches available for we don't know how long-people are masked and social distance about 12ft.

Go to pick up dinner? Everyone is masked and gloved. Not any exceptions.

Only Walmart, has people that shop in tribes and those tribes don't care about masks or social distancing. Yes, people yell and the ijits yell back. Enough of a problem that 2 sheriffs are there when the store is open to the public.

[Drummond]

Here's what I'm observing. From the get go, UK has run 10 days-3 weeks behind the US at every move. Makes sense, as US was hit first. For all your 'rational science and data driven moves,' they've mimicked the US for the most part.

Your lockdown is no more rigorous than the US, likely not as tight as NYC/NJ/CT were under.

I wasn't precisely sure how rigorous your lockdown was. But, I'm encouraged. How, with your irrepressible drive towards freedom and liberty, did that ever come about ?

Our 'rational science', etc, is a simple fact, in so far as our Government has been truthful in its repeatedly saying that it's been guided, and directed, by the scientific advice it's received throughout.

Care to try and prove Boris Johnson wrong on that ?


GA, the state your are so fearful of?

One of several, I understand, now. How many people live, in total, in all of those States ? Is it more than 65 million ?


Rates keep going down, as they were by the time this 'opening up' was announced. There's an argument to be made that GA governor really was announcing what the President wants to see, but the President had to bring up, 'could hold off a bit on some of the plans,' not defining a 'bit.'

I daresay that rates do keep going down, but all this does is illustrate the success story that lockdowns produce. This is not the point. The point is, what big spike in infections will be produced, once lockdown policies are reversed ?

And ... are our media wrong ? Ours say that President Trump was clear in telling the Georgian Governor that now was not the time to consider lockdown relaxation. But, the Governor ignored him.

Then again, our media report that Trump has vacillated. He wanted America opened up by Easter, we were told. A more recent report suggested America would arrange a wiping-out of Covid altogether (minus a vaccine or cure).


Indeed, with the White House right now containing many that are positive, there still has been hesitancy for masks, until today.

Interesting !!


They announced that all employees must wear masks at all times, unless sitting at your own desk. Not the message that the President wants while advocating opening, but it is what it is.

Just as our people are beginning to rethink the mask issue, too. But with us, this followed from a refinement of an understanding of how Covid-19 is transmitted ... as I've already posted about.


You don't know what we mean by opening and locking down,

Possibly so, given what you've posted here. But, again, this is beside the point. The real issue is, how far will you go in dispensing with them ?


you just got something in your head and you will not stop with the insults and revealing just how anti-American you are. Some are surprised.

... and I'm one of them ! If I were anti-American, surely I'd know it ???

I have years of posting history here, as you well know. None of it points to my being 'anti-American'. Indeed ... I strongly believe that no more American lives should be lost to Covid-19 than absolutely HAVE to be.

Is that anti-American ? I don't know. Perhaps the Georgian Governor would have his own opinion to offer, if anyone asked him ?

Thank you for your insult. [A libel ? H'mm ?]


The state I'm in has not been hard hit, but even walking around the park pond-where there are no benches available for we don't know how long-people are masked and social distance about 12ft.

Go to pick up dinner? Everyone is masked and gloved. Not any exceptions.

Only Walmart, has people that shop in tribes and those tribes don't care about masks or social distancing. Yes, people yell and the ijits yell back. Enough of a problem that 2 sheriffs are there when the store is open to the public.

May America have the good sense to stick with its lockdown regime(s). OK, I know that it has to end sometime. But preferably with as few American lives lost as possible.

And, Kath, that has always been my position. I suggest that your 'anti-American' jibe is totally uncalled for.

But let me guess. If I asked you to apologise, I'd be waiting until hell froze over ... yes ?

[Kathianne]

I wasn't precisely sure how rigorous your lockdown was. But, I'm encouraged. How, with your irrepressible drive towards freedom and liberty, did that ever come about ?

Our 'rational science', etc, is a simple fact, in so far as our Government has been truthful in its repeatedly saying that it's been guided, and directed, by the scientific advice it's received throughout.

Care to try and prove Boris Johnson wrong on that ?



One of several, I understand, now. How many people live, in total, in all of those States ? Is it more than 65 million ?



I daresay that rates do keep going down, but all this does is illustrate the success story that lockdowns produce. This is not the point. The point is, what big spike in infections will be produced, once lockdown policies are reversed ?

And ... are our media wrong ? Ours say that President Trump was clear in telling the Georgian Governor that now was not the time to consider lockdown relaxation. But, the Governor ignored him.

Then again, our media report that Trump has vacillated. He wanted America opened up by Easter, we were told. A more recent report suggested America would arrange a wiping-out of Covid altogether (minus a vaccine or cure).



Interesting !!



Just as our people are beginning to rethink the mask issue, too. But with us, this followed from a refinement of an understanding of how Covid-19 is transmitted ... as I've already posted about.



Possibly so, given what you've posted here. But, again, this is beside the point. The real issue is, how far will you go in dispensing with them ?



... and I'm one of them ! If I were anti-American, surely I'd know it ???

I have years of posting history here, as you well know. None of it points to my being 'anti-American'. Indeed ... I strongly believe that no more American lives should be lost to Covid-19 than absolutely HAVE to be.

Is that anti-American ? I don't know. Perhaps the Georgian Governor would have his own opinion to offer, if anyone asked him ?

Thank you for your insult. [A libel ? H'mm ?]



May America have the good sense to stick with its lockdown regime(s). OK, I know that it has to end sometime. But preferably with as few American lives lost as possible.

And, Kath, that has always been my position. I suggest that your 'anti-American' jibe is totally uncalled for.

But let me guess. If I asked you to apologise, I'd be waiting until hell froze over ... yes ?

As others beside myself await yours against us and our country. Your 'I care about Americans' is gag worthy.

[jimnyc]

So as I figured - the deaths that they would be responsible for with the recklessness would somehow be different.

So if folks that are asymptomatic/sick get others sick and they die - somehow those lives aren't worth as much, as you see, they came from the UK with a lower population and lower overall numbers. And somehow ignoring those potential deaths, even if a smaller number, are somehow better. Unbelievable smugness.

One person from the USA traveling compared to one person from the UK traveling - if either carries - either can do as much damage. And death is death.

But now I see it matters little to some, depending on who is the reason behind it.

No, you expect others to block potentially sick people, you do the same yourself. You condemn one, you condemn both. But not with you, ANYTHING that the UK ends up doing the SAME as the USA, is somehow "different" or scientific or whatever other BS reason.

And folks mentioning "apologizing" as if they are owed a damn fucking thing, and refuse to do so themselves when acting like an ass, is laughable. If anything, with the sheer hypocrisy and lack of concern for deaths outside the UK, I'd say the apology thinking is backwards. But I don't want one, need one nor would accept one.

True colors.

[jimnyc]

Here's what I'm observing. From the get go, UK has run 10 days-3 weeks behind the US at every move. Makes sense, as US was hit first. For all your 'rational science and data driven moves,' they've mimicked the US for the most part.

Your lockdown is no more rigorous than the US, likely not as tight as NYC/NJ/CT were under.

GA, the state your are so fearful of? Rates keep going down, as they were by the time this 'opening up' was announced. There's an argument to be made that GA governor really was announcing what the President wants to see, but the President had to bring up, 'could hold off a bit on some of the plans,' not defining a 'bit.' Indeed, with the White House right now containing many that are positive, there still has been hesitancy for masks, until today. They announced that all employees must wear masks at all times, unless sitting at your own desk.
Not the message that the President wants while advocating opening, but it is what it is.

You don't know what we mean by opening and locking down, you just got something in your head and you will not stop with the insults and revealing just how anti-American you are. Some are surprised.

The state I'm in has not been hard hit, but even walking around the park pond-where there are no benches available for we don't know how long-people are masked and social distance about 12ft.

Go to pick up dinner? Everyone is masked and gloved. Not any exceptions.

Only Walmart, has people that shop in tribes and those tribes don't care about masks or social distancing. Yes, people yell and the ijits yell back. Enough of a problem that 2 sheriffs are there when the store is open to the public.

FACTS - to be ignored like the facts that I kept repeating like 20-30 and maybe up to 40x, only to have the questions asked AGAIN! No thanks.

And yea, some idiots out there, but we KNOW they only live in the USA. So we have that at least. :laugh:

[jimnyc]

As others beside myself await yours against us and our country. Your 'I care about Americans' is gag worthy.

Sure, until it's time to start trashing the COTUS, and governors, and leaders, and the people, and some doctors, scientists or anyone else dare disagreeing with the conservative Boris govt. or the all knowing BBC.

Maybe Americans in general, but this American feels pissed on. And one who cleansed off afterwards, and apologized for receiving that pee pee, only to have myself pissed on again.

I learn to bring my umbrella for now on.

[Drummond]

As others beside myself await yours against us and our country. Your 'I care about Americans' is gag worthy.

My posting history, stretching back years, speaks for itself.

You're ignoring it because it suits you to .. it really is that simple. Fact is, you believe only what you want to believe.

Remember once calling me a Leftie ? Remember my reaction to it ? This is something you've never apologised for. Now, you're going an equivalent route by wanting to brand me as 'anti-American'.

Posting history ... ALL evidence telling you you're wrong ... all ignored, and always will be.

Because you'll only believe what you want to believe ...

.... assuming, of course, that you even DO believe it .....

[Kathianne]

My posting history, stretching back years, speaks for itself.

You're ignoring it because it suits you to .. it really is that simple. Fact is, you believe only what you want to believe.

Remember once calling me a Leftie ? Remember my reaction to it ? This is something you've never apologised for. Now, you're going an equivalent route by wanting to brand me as 'anti-American'.

Posting history ... ALL evidence telling you you're wrong ... all ignored, and always will be.

Because you'll only believe what you want to believe ...

.... assuming, of course, that you even DO believe it .....

I hate to burst your bubble, but it's finally dawned on many just how 'left' you are, by 'our' definition of left-which is different than yours. You've managed to clear the cobwebs that were there with your talking of being 'anti-socialism' and how bad your media is. Well, now they know, when it suits you, you're all in.

[Drummond]

Sure, until it's time to start trashing the COTUS, and governors, and leaders, and the people, and some doctors, scientists or anyone else dare disagreeing with the conservative Boris govt. or the all knowing BBC.

Maybe Americans in general, but this American feels pissed on. And one who cleansed off afterwards, and apologized for receiving that pee pee, only to have myself pissed on again.

I learn to bring my umbrella for now on.

Pointing out that COTUS doesn't address the reality of pandemics isn't trashing it. It's just telling the truth about it.

Saying that today's realities have to be met on their own terms, realistically, and responsibly, is simply logical and sensible.

You are not being 'pissed on' when you're given a dose of reality. A pity that you feel that way, but ... well, if you insist upon it, so be it.

Have fun.

Here's the thing. I've always thought of Conservatives as being realists. It's a defining quality. I ask why I'm not seeing that realism here. You've got one 'Conservative' who refers to Covid-19 as 'Covid1984'. You've got another who's recently posted that we're all being culled. You've got yet more who think there's something meritorious about opening up, ending lockdowns, and risking a second and possibly far deadlier pandemic wave.

How does ANY of this address reality ???

No.

Whether you like it or not, the REALITY is that the UK model for addressing Covid-19 is a completely realistic one, one led by the best scientific advice available to us. We aren't persuaded to veer from that realistic approach by anything that wasn't designed to meet today's emergency. Is the same true of America ?

Or do I 'piss on you' just by being remaining grounded in reality ?

You people believe what you choose to. Kathianne certainly does. Apparently, so do you, Jim.

This is something I can do nothing about (I'm a realist, as ever). So, why try to ?

Like I say: have fun.

[jimnyc]

My posting history, stretching back years, speaks for itself.

You're ignoring it because it suits you to .. it really is that simple. Fact is, you believe only what you want to believe.

Remember once calling me a Leftie ? Remember my reaction to it ? This is something you've never apologised for. Now, you're going an equivalent route by wanting to brand me as 'anti-American'.

Posting history ... ALL evidence telling you you're wrong ... all ignored, and always will be.

Because you'll only believe what you want to believe ...

.... assuming, of course, that you even DO believe it .....

You ARE a leftie, at least right now. A downright liberal with your stances AND your words to others. Your history means NOTHING if you drop it in a NY minute to become a leftie listener and condemner of how the USA operates.

So you have been acting out the position of a leftie whether you like that or not. You have offended many here and made it clear you don't care. You never apologize for anything you say, you see yourself as perfect apparently. While many are outright telling you that you are offending them, you simply don't care and repeat and rinse the same things.

And the fact that even back then that ANYONE would "demand" an apology is also downright laughable. And for someone to hold onto that biting bone over such for SO long is telling.

So now I'll be doing some bone biting into myself. And I'll be damned if I forget things stated to me, about my country and about friends.

History means very little. You can't shit on someone and then be like "well I was nice for however long...". Sorry, the shitting on someone also isn't easily forgotten. And then to tell them you simply couldn't care less about them, it would be NO loss and it's easily disposable.

So pissed on and shit on, and knowing I can't walk away from such never ending BS, I am deciding to use the ignore feature so as not to get myself aggravated over BS and potentially make things worse here for my friends. So ignore it is. I hated to do it, truthfully. But admittedly it's difficult for me NOT to reply when I'm being peed on, so it's best. This was MY decision, you folks enjoy.

[jimnyc]

I hate to burst your bubble, but it's finally dawned on many just how 'left' you are, by 'our' definition of left-which is different than yours. You've managed to clear the cobwebs that were there with your talking of being 'anti-socialism' and how bad your media is. Well, now they know, when it suits you, you're all in.

The fact is, the words/actions/agenda ALL perfectly line up with all the lefty BS we've been hearing here. I don't know and couldn't care less about who's right or left over there. But by leftie liberal standards as we know them here in the USA - it simply fits, a circle into a circle, square into square and hexagon into hexagon.

[Kathianne]

The fact is, the words/actions/agenda ALL perfectly line up with all the lefty BS we've been hearing here. I don't know and couldn't care less about who's right or left over there. But by leftie liberal standards as we know them here in the USA - it simply fits, a circle into a circle, square into square and hexagon into hexagon.
Yep, right down to fixating on one 'wrong' her perceives and hammering, hammering. Then ignoring all that he's done to harm others. You apologized for using words you weren't proud of, commendable in a general sense, but only a weapon in the hands of a lefty, as you've seen.

[jimnyc]

Yep, right down to fixating on one 'wrong' her perceives and hammering, hammering. Then ignoring all that he's done to harm others. You apologized for using words you weren't proud of, commendable in a general sense, but only a weapon in the hands of a lefty, as you've seen.

I'm ok with that. If a man knows he wrote offensive, or if someone told them what they wrote was offensive, I would almost always apologize. It's the right thing to do and what a man does and what I was always taught by my Dad.

[Drummond]

I hate to burst your bubble, but it's finally dawned on many just how 'left' you are, by 'our' definition of left-which is different than yours. You've managed to clear the cobwebs that were there with your talking of being 'anti-socialism' and how bad your media is. Well, now they know, when it suits you, you're all in.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laug h::laugh::laugh:

Hah !! Before even seeing this, what did I just post ??

So, you're resurrecting the 'Leftie' lie, eh ? Total proof of what I just asserted, previously.

The Left are dogma-driven. Their defining 'quality' is to see everything in terms of that dogma. Realism to them is to see how far they can twist reality to meet their sick dream for it.

Conservatives, being the polar opposite, work with REALITY. The reality of human nature. The reality that exists, real-time, which they work with, address, for the betterment of individual human beings.

Covid-19. How many of you deal with the realities of it, and how many view the virus just in terms of their own invention ?

And you say that I am not a Conservative ????!??

That's the sickest joke in ages !!

I can go so far as to say I'm - apparently - a different form of Conservative to most people on here. I don't wed myself to a dogma in defiance of total adaptation to reality. I certainly don't trample on the rights of others, and care not a jot about doing that, in order to advance my 'sacred rights' which are 'inviolable', regardless of their international consequences.

My brand of Conservatism, you see, is both caring and responsible.

Right this minute, America holds the moral high ground against China and its behaviour over Covid-19. This is as it should be. But if you do release a second, and deadlier, pandemic upon the world, courtesy of your willingness to end lockdown restrictions and your very large population ... you WILL lose that moral high ground.

Perhaps you'll have to have that proved to you the hard way. For all our sakes, yours and mine, let's hope it never comes to that.

[Kathianne]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

Hah !! Before even seeing this, what did I just post ??

So, you're resurrecting the 'Leftie' lie, eh ? Total proof of what I just asserted, previously.

The Left are dogma-driven. Their defining 'quality' is to see everything in terms of that dogma. Realism to them is to see how far they can twist reality to meet their sick dream for it.

Conservatives, being the polar opposite, work with REALITY. The reality of human nature. The reality that exists, real-time, which they work with, address, for the betterment of individual human beings.

Covid-19. How many of you deal with the realities of it, and how many view the virus just in terms of their own invention ?

And you say that I am not a Conservative ????!??

That's the sickest joke in ages !!

I can go so far as to say I'm - apparently - a different form of Conservative to most people on here. I don't wed myself to a dogma in defiance of total adaptation to reality. I certainly don't trample on the rights of others, and care not a jot about doing that, in order to advance my 'sacred rights' which are 'inviolable', regardless of their international consequences.

My brand of Conservatism, you see, is both caring and responsible.

Right this minute, America holds the moral high ground against China and its behaviour over Covid-19. This is as it should be. But if you do release a second, and deadlier, pandemic upon the world, courtesy of your willingness to end lockdown restrictions and your very large population ... you WILL lose that moral high ground.

Perhaps you'll have to have that proved to you the hard way. For all our sakes, yours and mine, let's hope it never comes to that.

Remove the log from your eye.

Your dogma is 'Government in UK run by left is deplorable and 'all is lost!'' With a 'conservative' government, which is still left in most ways like socialism, you agree with all. Whatever is decreed, you will clap and back.

You may have noticed it doesn't work that way here for most. It does for the left though.

[Drummond]

You ARE a leftie, at least right now. A downright liberal with your stances AND your words to others. Your history means NOTHING if you drop it in a NY minute to become a leftie listener and condemner of how the USA operates.

So you have been acting out the position of a leftie whether you like that or not. You have offended many here and made it clear you don't care. You never apologize for anything you say, you see yourself as perfect apparently. While many are outright telling you that you are offending them, you simply don't care and repeat and rinse the same things.

And the fact that even back then that ANYONE would "demand" an apology is also downright laughable. And for someone to hold onto that biting bone over such for SO long is telling.

So now I'll be doing some bone biting into myself. And I'll be damned if I forget things stated to me, about my country and about friends.

History means very little. You can't shit on someone and then be like "well I was nice for however long...". Sorry, the shitting on someone also isn't easily forgotten. And then to tell them you simply couldn't care less about them, it would be NO loss and it's easily disposable.

So pissed on and shit on, and knowing I can't walk away from such never ending BS, I am deciding to use the ignore feature so as not to get myself aggravated over BS and potentially make things worse here for my friends. So ignore it is. I hated to do it, truthfully. But admittedly it's difficult for me NOT to reply when I'm being peed on, so it's best. This was MY decision, you folks enjoy.

You hold a monopoly on truth ?

Doesn't matter how many times you call me a Leftie ... it doesn't make me one.

I've given you my definition of what a Leftie is, versus what a Conservative is. Which of them better fits me ?

Or would you prefer just to lie about me once more, instead ?

I have said, in several posts in the past, that I want Socialism, in all its forms, wiped from the face of this planet, shunned, reviled, as the blight upon humanity that it is. I'm sure you know this. You ignore it. But, you know it.

But still, you call ME a Leftie ???

So which of us is grounded in reality, and which of us is only seeing what he wants to see ?

This nonsense, I don't need.

[Oh, and I see you'll put me on 'ignore' ? Well ... there you have it. Seeing what you want to see, and ONLY that. Quite literally, deliberately ignoring anything you don't want to see. Talk about case proven !!!]

The only way I'm staying on here is if I start getting the apologies I'm owed; which, of course, I'm not going to get, am I. Since, your version of 'reality', much preferred to the truth, is what you'll stick with.

[Drummond]

Remove the log from your eye.

Your dogma is 'Government in UK run by left is deplorable and 'all is lost!'' With a 'conservative' government, which is still left in most ways like socialism, you agree with all. Whatever is decreed, you will clap and back.

You may have noticed it doesn't work that way here for most. It does for the left though.

The answer to this is obvious, and effectively already given. I agree with realism. I agree with a Government that provides it and works with reality.

I don't just rebel against a Government for the hell of it (especially not a Conservative one).

How about you ?

[Black Diamond]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

Hah !! Before even seeing this, what did I just post ??

So, you're resurrecting the 'Leftie' lie, eh ? Total proof of what I just asserted, previously.

The Left are dogma-driven. Their defining 'quality' is to see everything in terms of that dogma. Realism to them is to see how far they can twist reality to meet their sick dream for it.

Conservatives, being the polar opposite, work with REALITY. The reality of human nature. The reality that exists, real-time, which they work with, address, for the betterment of individual human beings.

Covid-19. How many of you deal with the realities of it, and how many view the virus just in terms of their own invention ?

And you say that I am not a Conservative ????!??

That's the sickest joke in ages !!

I can go so far as to say I'm - apparently - a different form of Conservative to most people on here. I don't wed myself to a dogma in defiance of total adaptation to reality. I certainly don't trample on the rights of others, and care not a jot about doing that, in order to advance my 'sacred rights' which are 'inviolable', regardless of their international consequences.

My brand of Conservatism, you see, is both caring and responsible.

Right this minute, America holds the moral high ground against China and its behaviour over Covid-19. This is as it should be. But if you do release a second, and deadlier, pandemic upon the world, courtesy of your willingness to end lockdown restrictions and your very large population ... you WILL lose that moral high ground.

Perhaps you'll have to have that proved to you the hard way. For all our sakes, yours and mine, let's hope it never comes to that.
So the governor of Georgia = President Xi.

[Black Diamond]

You hold a monopoly on truth ?

Doesn't matter how many times you call me a Leftie ... it doesn't make me one.

I've given you my definition of what a Leftie is, versus what a Conservative is. Which of them better fits me ?

Or would you prefer just to lie about me once more, instead ?

I have said, in several posts in the past, that I want Socialism, in all its forms, wiped from the face of this planet, shunned, reviled, as the blight upon humanity that it is. I'm sure you know this. You ignore it. But, you know it.

But still, you call ME a Leftie ???

So which of us is grounded in reality, and which of us is only seeing what he wants to see ?

This nonsense, I don't need.

[Oh, and I see you'll put me on 'ignore' ? Well ... there you have it. Seeing what you want to see, and ONLY that. Quite literally, deliberately ignoring anything you don't want to see. Talk about case proven !!!]

The only way I'm staying on here is if I start getting the apologies I'm owed; which, of course, I'm not going to get, am I. Since, your version of 'reality', much preferred to the truth, is what you'll stick with.

OK, Karen.

[Black Diamond]

Sure, until it's time to start trashing the COTUS, and governors, and leaders, and the people, and some doctors, scientists or anyone else dare disagreeing with the conservative Boris govt. or the all knowing BBC.

Maybe Americans in general, but this American feels pissed on. And one who cleansed off afterwards, and apologized for receiving that pee pee, only to have myself pissed on again.

I learn to bring my umbrella for now on.

Yes I have been there several times. It really sucks

[STTAB]

You hold a monopoly on truth ?

Doesn't matter how many times you call me a Leftie ... it doesn't make me one.

I've given you my definition of what a Leftie is, versus what a Conservative is. Which of them better fits me ?

Or would you prefer just to lie about me once more, instead ?

I have said, in several posts in the past, that I want Socialism, in all its forms, wiped from the face of this planet, shunned, reviled, as the blight upon humanity that it is. I'm sure you know this. You ignore it. But, you know it.

But still, you call ME a Leftie ???

So which of us is grounded in reality, and which of us is only seeing what he wants to see ?

This nonsense, I don't need.

[Oh, and I see you'll put me on 'ignore' ? Well ... there you have it. Seeing what you want to see, and ONLY that. Quite literally, deliberately ignoring anything you don't want to see. Talk about case proven !!!]

The only way I'm staying on here is if I start getting the apologies I'm owed; which, of course, I'm not going to get, am I. Since, your version of 'reality', much preferred to the truth, is what you'll stick with.


Hate to break it to you , but this board is like most boards they don't care if long time posters come or go.

[Abbey Marie]

Hate to break it to you , but this board is like most boards they don't care if long time posters come or go.

I’m a long time Admin, and I care.

[jimnyc]

So the governor of Georgia = President Xi.

He's a criminal - because he wanted to protect the rights and freedoms of his citizens. And you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that, and you're like China if you don't listen. But oh, I do respect your rights, your rights to listen to me and agree with me and agree that your way of handling is all wrong, and my way is all RIGHT. And unless you want to be a criminal and purposely killing people - aka murderer or manslaughter, then you must agree with me and do as my country does. But I respect your right to agree with what I just wrote. :rolleyes:

[jimnyc]

Hate to break it to you , but this board is like most boards they don't care if long time posters come or go.

I do care about folks leaving, especially the long time members. Even make an effort to work with everyone to avoid such happening. Folks come and go all on their own. Can't force folks to stay. If someone comes here and disrespects me personally, our country as a whole, our leading politicians and leaders, our way of life, our rights and freedoms & our constitution - they will likely get a response. If they do it continually, they will get more responses coming their way. But they yet still have that right to speak their opinions, as everyone else does. And if someone wants to leave because they feel they are owed an apology because various folks replied, disagreed or whatever, so be it. But no one is pushing or forcing or asking anything.

So I do care, but thinking it sucks if someone leaves for whatever reason, doesn't mean that I have to sell my soul, my rights and freedoms and beliefs and ignore a barrage of insulting comments.

And no, nothing is about you or your past with me. Folks make decisions of their own, and some return. I'm always happy when that happens and I drop and forget the past and try to be better the second time around. And in general, no one in thought - I agree with you. Just what it is on the grand scale out there. when it comes to discussion boards. Folks hate to see others leaving and especially folks that have posted for a long time or folks you have grown to like, but things continue on the next day.

---

And to no one... we still have the ignore option after 13 years of DP. Can save a lot of headaches all the way around. And if it makes me a "coward" in someone's eyes, so be it there too. Some things as you watch things progress, seem to never change and you can tell it's just going to be the same 'ol same 'ol not matter what you say or do. In cases like that is when I think it should be used, and why I am doing do.

[Black Diamond]

He's a criminal - because he wanted to protect the rights and freedoms of his citizens. And you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that, and you're like China if you don't listen. But oh, I do respect your rights, your rights to listen to me and agree with me and agree that your way of handling is all wrong, and my way is all RIGHT. And unless you want to be a criminal and purposely killing people - aka murderer or manslaughter, then you must agree with me and do as my country does. But I respect your right to agree with what I just wrote. :rolleyes:

Everyone is entitled to MY opinion.

[Gunny]

I think in th eend, a LOT of apologizing will be due from those overreacting out of fear and/or their erratic and rude behavior towards others. I address no one specificcally on this board nor even this country. Those are the very people who are so self-righteous in the infallibility of their own beliefs in telling others how they should act they will be the ones that will never apologize.

[Drummond]

OK, Karen.???

Presumably that reference is a derogatory one ?

If you want your preferred effect, first, you need to be sure that your target knows what you're talking about. So, who's Karen, and what did your post mean ?

[Drummond]

I think in th eend, a LOT of apologizing will be due from those overreacting out of fear and/or their erratic and rude behavior towards others. I address no one specificcally on this board nor even this country. Those are the very people who are so self-righteous in the infallibility of their own beliefs in telling others how they should act they will be the ones that will never apologize.

I'm aware that you don't want to address anyone specifically. For myself, one individual here - making the sickest joke, EVER - once called me a Leftie.

At the time, I took it for what it was: not only a libel, but probably the nastiest insult anyone could pay me.

That individual has never found the decency to apologise. Quite a pity .. but, that's the truth of it.

Now, if I'm to believe what I read, that belief is held by more than one individual here. Yeahh ... I'm so much of a 'Leftie', that I want the creed wiped from the planet, and have said so, several times !!

Let's get down to a fundamental truth, something I've only recently realised.

An American Conservative has no precise equivalent, anywhere beyond America !! American Conservatism has its share of dogma driving it, and the nature of that difference is specifically American, in origin, and in character.

So, I'm not as much like other people here as I thought I was.

For me, Conservatism = realism. Realism about the nature of the world, and realism about human nature. Any belief system failing to respect an individual AS an individual, and failing to serve that individual's needs, and aspirations ... not only cannot ultimately endure without repression, but inevitably gets mired in a dogma intended to overrule the deficiencies the system foists upon that individual.

So it is that I'm a Conservative .. one NOT mired in dogma, one facing the real world in real terms. I'm a Conservative believing that the individual is all-important.

This makes me different from the other Conservatives here.

Covid-19 has forced an unwelcome reality upon the world. So, it needs a realistic solution, one that respects the individual.

My own Government is applying that approach. As well it might, because it's a Conservative Government.

Anyway ... I could easily develop that to make other judgements, but, heyy, if I do, nobody will listen, and I'll probably get more insults and outright lies directed at me. So no good purpose is served by bothering.

It all comes down to this. You Conservatives, here, have a truly unique brand of Conservatism going for you. By and large, you're intolerant to any beliefs not matching it. So, the simple truth, is this: DEBATE POLICY NEEDS TO BECOME AN AMERICA-ONLY CLUB.

I'm aware that Jim resists that idea, and will probably continue to reject it. But the fact is, that people on here who do not fit in, ultimately end up being made to regret it.

Well, be honest. They do, don't they ?

How well do foreigners tend to do, here, anyway ?

I'm guessing that no foreigner has ever lasted here as long as I have.

I've had a good run here. But in the end, I've had abuse and lies flung my way. And for what ? FOR BEING A GOOD CONSERVATIVE, LOYAL TO HIS COUNTRY AND HIS BELIEFS.

'Nice', eh, folks ?

So: face reality (well, why not ?). Make this an America-only club. Only American Conservatism is tolerated here.

[Drummond]

Everyone is entitled to MY opinion.

No comment needed.

[Drummond]

I’m a long time Admin, and I care.

I'm not sure if this is supportive of me, or not. Probably, it amounts to a generalised comment, applying to anyone.

Regardless: thank you for holding that outlook, Abbey.

Jim has said he has me on 'ignore' (which says volumes; he needs to ignore me, because I challenge his beliefs !). So, there's no point in making this plea directly to him.

May I ask you, then, as an Admin yourself, here, to pass on my recommendation, and to do all you can to convince Jim of its wisdom ?

I ask that you persuade him to ban all non-Americans from Debate Policy, and to make sure that any who want to join here will be refused membership.

It's a fact that foreigners who do join, tend to end up regretting it. I'd like to be the foreigner who saves future foreigners from going through that experience. So, please assist, Abbey. Arrange my banning, and keep non-Americans away from this board ... please.

Thanks for your efforts in this regard ... appreciated. :salute:

[jimnyc]

I think in th eend, a LOT of apologizing will be due from those overreacting out of fear and/or their erratic and rude behavior towards others. I address no one specificcally on this board nor even this country. Those are the very people who are so self-righteous in the infallibility of their own beliefs in telling others how they should act they will be the ones that will never apologize.

https://i.imgur.com/74MItMo.jpg ON

[Black Diamond]

No comment needed.

And yet you provided one. And I love it when people do this "I'm not saying anything" actually says everything.

[Drummond]

And yet you provided one. And I love it when people do this "I'm not saying anything" actually says everything.

Glad you're delighted. I aim to please. Ask anyone ... :rolleyes:

I didn't say 'No comment offered'. I said, 'No comment NEEDED'. Indeed ... no comment was needed.

I'm still waiting to find out who Karen is, and what your post was about, though not with baited breath. Probably just as well.

By the way, this to the Admin: how's my being banned coming along ? Obviously, I can still log in, and still post. WHY ?

Fact is, American Conservatives are a unique breed. You mix basic Conservatism with dogma, and unfortunately, are content to let the dogma predominate. Few Conservatives outside of the US, I suggest, would identify with that.

I've had to find this truth out the hard way. I'd much rather other non-American Conservatives were spared that experience. So, DP needs to be open only to Americans.

[Kathianne]

Glad you're delighted. I aim to please. Ask anyone ... :rolleyes:

I didn't say 'No comment offered'. I said, 'No comment NEEDED'. Indeed ... no comment was needed.

I'm still waiting to find out who Karen is, and what your post was about, though not with baited breath. Probably just as well.

By the way, this to the Admin: how's my being banned coming along ? Obviously, I can still log in, and still post. WHY ?

Fact is, American Conservatives are a unique breed. You mix basic Conservatism with dogma, and unfortunately, are content to let the dogma predominate. Few Conservatives outside of the US, I suggest, would identify with that.

I've had to find this truth out the hard way. I'd much rather other non-American Conservatives were spared that experience. So, DP needs to be open only to Americans.

You have he right to say whatever you like here, even derogatory things, over and over and over. On the other hand, no expectation that vitriol will not be returned. Last we checked, you are not control of this private site.

[Drummond]

You have he right to say whatever you like here, even derogatory things, over and over and over. On the other hand, no expectation that vitriol will not be returned. Last we checked, you are not control of this private site.

Translation: you won't consider any other Conservatives, except your own.

I wonder what I have to say, to make this any clearer ? Conservatism, normally, isn't about dogma. At least, to non-Americans, it isn't. Dogma is usually the preserve of the Left, since, to operate and advance their cause, they need to have the dogma they are wedded to turned into propagandist agenda-mongering.

Conservatives, elsewhere, fight this. What they don't do is become dogma-driven themselves.

But, here, it's different. You build a form of dogmatism around your Constitution, and this Constitution of yours assumes - almost ? - a form of religious reverence to its Conservative adherents. Should practicalities intrude, such as, fighting a virus in the most human-respecting way possible, you let your Constitution become the basis for your actions.

Most other Conservatives prefer sheer practicality, instead.

Arguing with you, or indeed anybody, about whether or not there's a better way of doing things, is a total waste of time ... as I've found. Try it, and you run the 'risk' of meeting a wall of abuse for your trouble (aka 'F-bombs', as Jim is pleased to call them). No; you have your religion, it's called the Constitution, and nothing is viewed independently of the dogmatic filter you choose to apply to it.

Non-American Conservatives, if more join here, will not understand any of this. So, they'll get their helpings of abuse, if they talk about THEIR beliefs and worldview, rather than yours. I'd rather that they were spared that rude awakening.

So, why won't you do them that favour ? American Conservatives are their own breed, distinct from other, far less doctrinaire, non-American Conservatives. DP becoming an America-only club is an eminently practical answer.

[jimnyc]

You have he right to say whatever you like here, even derogatory things, over and over and over. On the other hand, no expectation that vitriol will not be returned. Last we checked, you are not control of this private site.

Anyone stating we must or need to ban non-Americans is simply acting out. Everyone knows where the EXIT button is if they have issues. No need for dumb things about bans or lame things about folks wanting to be banned and what not. If one doesn't like it and has such an issue - they can leave instead of encouraging others do just that.

Instead of someone going out of their way to make childish claims, why not:

https://i.imgur.com/O6iJAuP.png

[Kathianne]

Anyone stating we must or need to ban non-Americans is simply acting out. Everyone knows where the EXIT button is if they have issues. No need for dumb things about bans or lame things about folks wanting to be banned and what not. If one doesn't like it and has such an issue - they can leave instead of encouraging others do just that.

Instead of someone going out of their way to make childish claims, why not:

https://i.imgur.com/O6iJAuP.png

Totally agree. It's a lefty move to say, "I don't like this, do what I want BEFORE I leave." Always, always destroy what I don't agree with. Better yet, do what I want and then it will self-destruct, leaving ashes, as always.

[jimnyc]

Totally agree. It's a lefty move to say, "I don't like this, do what I want BEFORE I leave." Always, always destroy what I don't agree with. Better yet, do what I want and then it will self-destruct, leaving ashes, as always.

We all have freedom of speech here. And if someone doesn't like what others say, they have a couple options. But one of them is not banning other people. Or demanding of groups as such. Or even trying to play victim themselves. They can either enjoy the fact that both sides have that freedom, or they have the right to leave as well. I try to lower the heat by using ignore but see the stupid shit continues. And yes, seems like an attempt of "I'm gonna leave, but what can I do to piss others off before doing so" - otherwise I see no need for demands of change. Change ain't happening, so such talk only makes anyone stating/demanding to look foolish. And an apology was made, and another won't be made. Shall I repeat? Will not be made, ever.

[Kathianne]

We all have freedom of speech here. And if someone doesn't like what others say, they have a couple options. But one of them is not banning other people. Or demanding of groups as such. Or even trying to play victim themselves. They can either enjoy the fact that both sides have that freedom, or they have the right to leave as well. I try to lower the heat by using ignore but see the stupid shit continues. And yes, seems like an attempt of "I'm gonna leave, but what can I do to piss others off before doing so" - otherwise I see no need for demands of change. Change ain't happening, so such talk only makes anyone stating/demanding to look foolish. And an apology was made, and another won't be made. Shall I repeat? Will not be made, ever.

Indeed you did, for the language. I didn't notice any apology from the other regarding calling Americans 'murderers, like those in China.' That won't happen either, as we know that Europeans are never, ever wrong. :rolleyes:

[Kathianne]

Meanwhile, speaking of the Old Country...

doesn't seem like the scientific opening is all roses and sunshine or all that 'scientific.' More like a mimicking of US, with a bit of UK twist:

https://news.yahoo.com/major-coronavirus-developments-wednesday-13-may-140054528.html

https://www.newsweek.com/covid-19-boris-johnson-prime-minister-u-k-1502997

[STTAB]

I'm aware that you don't want to address anyone specifically. For myself, one individual here - making the sickest joke, EVER - once called me a Leftie.

At the time, I took it for what it was: not only a libel, but probably the nastiest insult anyone could pay me.

That individual has never found the decency to apologise. Quite a pity .. but, that's the truth of it.

Now, if I'm to believe what I read, that belief is held by more than one individual here. Yeahh ... I'm so much of a 'Leftie', that I want the creed wiped from the planet, and have said so, several times !!

Let's get down to a fundamental truth, something I've only recently realised.

An American Conservative has no precise equivalent, anywhere beyond America !! American Conservatism has its share of dogma driving it, and the nature of that difference is specifically American, in origin, and in character.

So, I'm not as much like other people here as I thought I was.

For me, Conservatism = realism. Realism about the nature of the world, and realism about human nature. Any belief system failing to respect an individual AS an individual, and failing to serve that individual's needs, and aspirations ... not only cannot ultimately endure without repression, but inevitably gets mired in a dogma intended to overrule the deficiencies the system foists upon that individual.

So it is that I'm a Conservative .. one NOT mired in dogma, one facing the real world in real terms. I'm a Conservative believing that the individual is all-important.

This makes me different from the other Conservatives here.

Covid-19 has forced an unwelcome reality upon the world. So, it needs a realistic solution, one that respects the individual.

My own Government is applying that approach. As well it might, because it's a Conservative Government.

Anyway ... I could easily develop that to make other judgements, but, heyy, if I do, nobody will listen, and I'll probably get more insults and outright lies directed at me. So no good purpose is served by bothering.

It all comes down to this. You Conservatives, here, have a truly unique brand of Conservatism going for you. By and large, you're intolerant to any beliefs not matching it. So, the simple truth, is this: DEBATE POLICY NEEDS TO BECOME AN AMERICA-ONLY CLUB.

I'm aware that Jim resists that idea, and will probably continue to reject it. But the fact is, that people on here who do not fit in, ultimately end up being made to regret it.

Well, be honest. They do, don't they ?

How well do foreigners tend to do, here, anyway ?

I'm guessing that no foreigner has ever lasted here as long as I have.

I've had a good run here. But in the end, I've had abuse and lies flung my way. And for what ? FOR BEING A GOOD CONSERVATIVE, LOYAL TO HIS COUNTRY AND HIS BELIEFS.

'Nice', eh, folks ?

So: face reality (well, why not ?). Make this an America-only club. Only American Conservatism is tolerated here.


This should be a further cautionary tale to this board about the ganging up and only accepting one point of view that I have mentioned over and over and over . Eventually it's just going to be a circle jerk of yes men and women , hell I even saw an attempt to chase Kath off cuz she wouldn't agree to the
accepted opinions.

Drummond, don't leave. Just keep posting your opinions bro.

No matter how dumb they are LOL

[jimnyc]

Indeed you did, for the language. I didn't notice any apology from the other regarding calling Americans 'murderers, like those in China.' That won't happen either, as we know that Europeans are never, ever wrong. :rolleyes:

I thought an apology was due for quite a few comments that got a rise out of me. I replied wrongly and apologized. But the smugness, in your face & you know I'm right, criminal, piece of parchment, China, 9/11.... rather than apologize for nothing, or replying angrily, I simply use the ignore and walk away from such garbage. But I see comments continued, and I ran in the past & now because I didn't like someone disagreeing. Even though I clearly stated what pissed me off. But it's because someone disagrees, which is simply made up bullshit. And then now on and on with demands of banning the world. Banning him. So he can become further a victim. And to tell his friends 'you don't want to be there, they don't allow freedom of speech and they banned me'. Those things are baby games and I ain't playing. And no apology is needed nor wanted as I said, for me it wouldn't be accepted. The things stated offended me a tad more than that.

And yet there everyone sits and posts, including the victim. And all rights and freedoms remain. But I should start banning people for some reason?

Breath shouldn't be held by anyone at this point expecting worldwide banning. And don't hold the breath any longer than that waiting for an apology. Neither are coming.

[Kathianne]

This should be a further cautionary tale to this board about the ganging up and only accepting one point of view that I have mentioned over and over and over . Eventually it's just going to be a circle jerk of yes men and women , hell I even saw an attempt to chase Kath off cuz she wouldn't agree to the
accepted opinions.

Drummond, don't leave. Just keep posting your opinions bro.

No matter how dumb they are LOL
I remember those times of being ganged up on, that's not what's going on here though. He's getting reaction to his posts and accusations against the US.

Leading those angry that I couldn't go along with the crowd, was a Brit. Telling me I was liberal, IF I didn't vote as he thought I should. Like others, saying 'there was no alternative.'

There was no way that self-described conservatives, much less a foreign one could make me not follow my principles. No, that took the Democrats holding months of impeachment hearings, that had followed years of threats, capped off by the Speaker of the House ripping a copy of a good speech at the State of the Union. With those actions, I had to reconsider what to do as the next election is coming up.

[jimnyc]

This should be a further cautionary tale to this board about the ganging up and only accepting one point of view that I have mentioned over and over and over . Eventually it's just going to be a circle jerk of yes men and women , hell I even saw an attempt to chase Kath off cuz she wouldn't agree to the
accepted opinions.

Drummond, don't leave. Just keep posting your opinions bro.

No matter how dumb they are LOL

How is anyone ganging up? Half the board and then some aren't even in this thread. And should folks accept insults? And hell, some others disagree with quite a bit of my stances on this, but none going out of their way to be insulting over and over.

And no one is accepting of only one POV, I've evolved all over the map on this one thanks to information on the web, and on here! I've learned a ton on here thanks to things others have posted and shared.

And if someone else got upset as I did at the America comments non-stop, should no one be offended or say anything, for fear of looking like they agree with someone else on the board?

Drummond is far from one being ganged up on. Perhaps appears so on this subject, as I think it makes sense that multiple people here get their eyebrows raised at the criminal American stuff tossed at us left and right.

[STTAB]

I remember those times of being ganged up on, that's not what's going on here though. He's getting reaction to his posts and accusations against the US.

Leading those angry that I couldn't go along with the crowd, was a Brit. Telling me I was liberal, IF I didn't vote as he thought I should. Like others, saying 'there was no alternative.'

There was no way that self-described conservatives, much less a foreign one could make me not follow my principles. No, that took the Democrats holding months of impeachment hearings, that had followed years of threats, capped off by the Speaker of the House ripping a copy of a good speech at the State of the Union. With those actions, I had to reconsider what to do as the next election is coming up.


I knew you'd come around and turn into a Trumper LOL

Your reasoning is sound too. Same reasoning I use for not voting for any Democrat at ANY level , despite the fact that I know a few local people who are Democrats who are good people and do a good job in their positions. Doesn't matter. I didn't make this decision, their party made it for me.

[jimnyc]

No one banned, never gonna happen.

I'm out on this one and altogether for a spell. Folks have their impressions of me and the board as a whole anytime I dive in deep in the posting, or happen to disagree with someone and then someone else does too.

I'll stick to starting some political threads to help get things going but without my own opinion. Avoids the negativity and feedback, and one less voice to be responsible for another's actions or another person leaving.

[Kathianne]

I knew you'd come around and turn into a Trumper LOL

Your reasoning is sound too. Same reasoning I use for not voting for any Democrat at ANY level , despite the fact that I know a few local people who are Democrats who are good people and do a good job in their positions. Doesn't matter. I didn't make this decision, their party made it for me.

I doubt you'll see more than 'good actions' regarding Trump from me, my original take on the man haven't changed. I'll never be on that Trumper train, but I also will do nothing to encourage the unfairness, unlawfulness, and the undermining of our system of government that has been perpetrated by the Democrats on all levels.

If you remember my major concerns were his ability to follow the Constitution-or even basic knowledge of it; his tendency to creating chaos; and that he encouraged some of the worse behaviors in some of his core supporters. I wasn't wrong. However, not all of what has played out regarding these things rest on him alone.

[STTAB]

I doubt you'll see more than 'good actions' regarding Trump from me, my original take on the man haven't changed. I'll never be on that Trumper train, but I also will do nothing to encourage the unfairness, unlawfulness, and the undermining of our system of government that has been perpetrated by the Democrats on all levels.

If you remember my major concerns were his ability to follow the Constitution-or even basic knowledge of it; his tendency to creating chaos; and that he encouraged some of the worse behaviors in some of his core supporters. I wasn't wrong. However, not all of what has played out regarding these things rest on him alone.


Well, if you will remember I didn't vote for him in 2016, for largely the same reasons as you , though I disagree about whether he is attempting to follow the COTUS or not, but you are 100% correct the behavior of the Dems since he was elected has been beyond appalling and I'm sorry but any of his personal shortcomings are pretty much not important in the face of what Democrats have done since 2016. They should be ashamed of themselves, but of course they are not.

[Drummond]

Anyone stating we must or need to ban non-Americans is simply acting out. Everyone knows where the EXIT button is if they have issues. No need for dumb things about bans or lame things about folks wanting to be banned and what not. If one doesn't like it and has such an issue - they can leave instead of encouraging others do just that.

Instead of someone going out of their way to make childish claims, why not:

https://i.imgur.com/O6iJAuP.png

So, how about a different approach ? Why not be fair to non-American Conservatives considering joining, and including some short statement on an introductory page, warning them of the American version of Conservatism ?

Would that be too considerate a move ?

As matters stand, we have to find out what's true the hard way. Conservatives not understanding that your Constitution gets unquestioned reverence, regardless of practicalities involved, are in for abuse, 'F-bombs', and accusations of being Leftie, all because they don't share that automatic, unthinking reverence .. REGARDLESS OF CULTURAL DIFFERENCE.

Is that fair to them ? Your culture, is your culture. But it doesn't exist clear across the planet. Must they risk abuse because of that ?

If my experience is any guide, any answer to that will be 'yes'.

[Kathianne]

So, how about a different approach ? Why not be fair to non-American Conservatives considering joining, and including some short statement on an introductory page, warning them of the American version of Conservatism ?

Would that be too considerate a move ?

As matters stand, we have to find out what's true the hard way. Conservatives not understanding that your Constitution gets unquestioned reverence, regardless of practicalities involved, are in for abuse, 'F-bombs', and accusations of being Leftie, all because they don't share that automatic, unthinking reverence .. REGARDLESS OF CULTURAL DIFFERENCE.

Is that fair to them ? Your culture, is your culture. But it doesn't exist clear across the planet. Must they risk abuse because of that ?

If my experience is any guide, any answer to that will be 'yes'.

Ho Chi Minh and Joseph Stalin approve the above post.

You are not conservative, that is a delusional belief that you purported here. Several times the truth has willed out.

[Drummond]

This should be a further cautionary tale to this board about the ganging up and only accepting one point of view that I have mentioned over and over and over . Eventually it's just going to be a circle jerk of yes men and women , hell I even saw an attempt to chase Kath off cuz she wouldn't agree to the
accepted opinions.

Drummond, don't leave. Just keep posting your opinions bro.

No matter how dumb they are LOL

Just for the record: I hold no monopoly on 'dumbness' here. Although, no doubt somebody here will disagree with that one.:rolleyes:

I'm nobody's victim. I can give it as well as take it, as I've already demonstrated.

The thing of it is, yes, I can keep posting my opinions. But all it'll bring me is more abuse, and yet more libel about my being a Leftie !! Nobody here is ever going to accept any truth that they prefer not to accept.

Well ... I don't know. Ideally, views can be swapped, considered, debated objectively. Not so here, though. Jim and many others are so grounded in the inviolability of their own views, that nothing opposing them gets a look-in. And if they persist, they're rewarded with abuse.

It seems, then, that some really do have a monopoly on the 'truth' !! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'll say it again: the American version of Conservatism is unique on this planet. It's grounded in a particular culture, and a particular document, which it seems I'm encouraged to believe is 100% perfect for every situation, every experience. Wow !!

How many non-American Conservatives will join here, sharing that viewpoint ? How many will think it reasonable that a sustained querying of it, will only earn abuse, not a fair hearing ? Will they know what they're in for, when they join ?

So if DP becoming an 'Americans-only' club is out of the question, I'd suggest that new members be given a statement as to what those running this site are dogmatically wedded to, as a warning of what it is that they ARE joining.

Reasonable ? Yes ?

I think so.

No doubt nobody else will. But, let's see.

[Kathianne]

Just for the record: I hold no monopoly on 'dumbness' here. Although, no doubt somebody here will disagree with that one.:rolleyes:

I'm nobody's victim. I can give it as well as take it, as I've already demonstrated.

The thing of it is, yes, I can keep posting my opinions. But all it'll bring me is more abuse, and yet more libel about my being a Leftie !! Nobody here is ever going to accept any truth that they prefer not to accept.

Well ... I don't know. Ideally, views can be swapped, considered, debated objectively. Not so here, though. Jim and many others are so grounded in the inviolability of their own views, that nothing opposing them gets a look-in. And if they persist, they're rewarded with abuse.

It seems, then, that some really do have a monopoly on the 'truth' !! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'll say it again: the American version of Conservatism is unique on this planet. It's grounded in a particular culture, and a particular document, which it seems I'm encouraged to believe is 100% perfect for every situation, every experience. Wow !!

How many non-American Conservatives will join here, sharing that viewpoint ? How many will think it reasonable that a sustained querying of it, will only earn abuse, not a fair hearing ? Will they know what they're in for, when they join ?

So if DP becoming an 'Americans-only' club is out of the question, I'd suggest that new members be given a statement as to what those running this site are dogmatically wedded to, as a warning of what it is that they ARE joining.

Reasonable ? Yes ?

I think so.

No doubt nobody else will. But, let's see.

No. Start your own board.

[STTAB]

Just for the record: I hold no monopoly on 'dumbness' here. Although, no doubt somebody here will disagree with that one.:rolleyes:

I'm nobody's victim. I can give it as well as take it, as I've already demonstrated.

The thing of it is, yes, I can keep posting my opinions. But all it'll bring me is more abuse, and yet more libel about my being a Leftie !! Nobody here is ever going to accept any truth that they prefer not to accept.

Well ... I don't know. Ideally, views can be swapped, considered, debated objectively. Not so here, though. Jim and many others are so grounded in the inviolability of their own views, that nothing opposing them gets a look-in. And if they persist, they're rewarded with abuse.

It seems, then, that some really do have a monopoly on the 'truth' !! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'll say it again: the American version of Conservatism is unique on this planet. It's grounded in a particular culture, and a particular document, which it seems I'm encouraged to believe is 100% perfect for every situation, every experience. Wow !!

How many non-American Conservatives will join here, sharing that viewpoint ? How many will think it reasonable that a sustained querying of it, will only earn abuse, not a fair hearing ? Will they know what they're in for, when they join ?

So if DP becoming an 'Americans-only' club is out of the question, I'd suggest that new members be given a statement as to what those running this site are dogmatically wedded to, as a warning of what it is that they ARE joining.

Reasonable ? Yes ?

I think so.

No doubt nobody else will. But, let's see.

Jesus Crhist man, if someone is making you post here against your will blink twice and I'll alert the authorities to your distress. Otherwise, drama queen much?

I myself don't believe in running any poster off, no matter how obnoxious they are, and to be clear I don't think you're obnoxious, and I agree this board allows some board members way way way too much leeway when they attempt to run a member off, but I don't see that happening in THIS case.

Just fling mud back at those flinging at you and go on with your day bro.

[Drummond]

Ho Chi Minh and Joseph Stalin approve the above post.

You are not conservative, that is a delusional belief that you purported here. Several times the truth has willed out.

Still, you persist with this. Does your conscience never bother you ?

I can agree that I'm not an AMERICAN Conservative. That much is obvious. But I've already explained what my version of Conservatism is .. and it critically involves my NOT being wedded to dogma.

There is no such thing as a Leftie who isn't wedded to dogma.

So, what you claim for me - apparently, unashamedly ?? - cannot be true.

I'll never 'convince you' of that, though, will I, Kath ? You much prefer your version of things, and you're not at all open to any alternative.

Such as, how dead Communists come to life, magically, just to 'approve my material' ....

You're actually funny !!! :laugh::laugh:

[Drummond]

Jesus Crhist man, if someone is making you post here against your will blink twice and I'll alert the authorities to your distress. Otherwise, drama queen much?

'Drama queen'. Tut tut. Yet more abuse. This site definitely specialises in it. Still, at least you're trying for some balance. Thanks for that.


I myself don't believe in running any poster off, no matter how obnoxious they are, and to be clear I don't think you're obnoxious, and I agree this board allows some board members way way way too much leeway when they attempt to run a member off, but I don't see that happening in THIS case.

Just fling mud back at those flinging at you and go on with your day bro.

Maybe I can be accused of 'being prissy'. But I prefer to know that I've got the moral high ground. Giving back the same level of abuse that I get myself, would mean that I descend to the level of the one starting it.

But, who knows. Perhaps it can be deserved, to go that far. Like, insisting that Kath must be a Leftie, as she falsely and ridiculously delights in calling me one.

I dunno. I'll give it some thought.

It's not as though I'm going to be banned, is it ...... ;) ;)

[Kathianne]

Still, you persist with this. Does your conscience never bother you ?

I can agree that I'm not an AMERICAN Conservative. That much is obvious. But I've already explained what my version of Conservatism is .. and it critically involves my NOT being wedded to dogma.

There is no such thing as a Leftie who isn't wedded to dogma.

So, what you claim for me - apparently, unashamedly ?? - cannot be true.

I'll never 'convince you' of that, though, will I, Kath ? You much prefer your version of things, and you're not at all open to any alternative.

Such as, how dead Communists come to life, magically, just to 'approve my material' ....

You're actually funny !!! :laugh::laugh:

and you seem unable to see yourself, against what you write. No hope.

BTW, I agree with Sttab, you are not being run off, you are choosing to threaten. So be it. You are getting what you have given. Same with name calling and respect or lack of thereof.

Why would I apologize for telling the truth, 'as I define it?' LOL! Honest people tend to do so, if you miss it, that was not a derogatory thing I've just said.

[STTAB]

I agree with Sttab,

More of this would mean a better world for all.:laugh:

[Kathianne]

More of this would mean a better world for all.:laugh:
:slap::laugh:

[Black Diamond]

So, how about a different approach ? Why not be fair to non-American Conservatives considering joining, and including some short statement on an introductory page, warning them of the American version of Conservatism ?

Would that be too considerate a move ?

As matters stand, we have to find out what's true the hard way. Conservatives not understanding that your Constitution gets unquestioned reverence, regardless of practicalities involved, are in for abuse, 'F-bombs', and accusations of being Leftie, all because they don't share that automatic, unthinking reverence .. REGARDLESS OF CULTURAL DIFFERENCE.

Is that fair to them ? Your culture, is your culture. But it doesn't exist clear across the planet. Must they risk abuse because of that ?

If my experience is any guide, any answer to that will be 'yes'.

How about a statement on the introductory page that says "Warning. A whiny Brit leftist who poses as a conservative posts here."

[Drummond]

How is anyone ganging up? Half the board and then some aren't even in this thread. And should folks accept insults? And hell, some others disagree with quite a bit of my stances on this, but none going out of their way to be insulting over and over.

And no one is accepting of only one POV, I've evolved all over the map on this one thanks to information on the web, and on here! I've learned a ton on here thanks to things others have posted and shared.

And if someone else got upset as I did at the America comments non-stop, should no one be offended or say anything, for fear of looking like they agree with someone else on the board?

Drummond is far from one being ganged up on. Perhaps appears so on this subject, as I think it makes sense that multiple people here get their eyebrows raised at the criminal American stuff tossed at us left and right.

Getting to the 'nitty gritty' of all this, the truth actually is that you're an American Conservative (& no, I will NOT descend to Kath's libellous ways, and start calling you a Leftie !!) ... and one wedded to all the dogma that comes with that.

Such as, the American Constitution is absolutely perfect, inviolable ... etc.

Such as, even if certain States do start fresh outbreaks of Covid-19, it's the world's duty to 'not mind it', and be happy that you do nothing to protect anybody from it. Meanwhile, you can still run China off a cliff for starting their own pandemic, of course.

You see no fault that might impinge upon your dogma. Anyone identifying faults ... ATTACK. Launch your 'F-bomb', express regret for it, then launch another one !

... all jolly stuff ....

Those wedded to dogma can never be persuaded they're wrong. So it is that I'll never get any admission from you of being wrong in any respect whatsoever.

Cue a bit of abuse ? Come on. You know you want to .... besides, we all know that in films, the archetypal Brit must inevitably be portrayed as the villain .... so I'm ripe for it. Eh ?

And to think that you could just ban me, & that would be the end of it. Aggravation over, dogma left inviolate. Ah, well .....

Tell you what. Why not invite FJ back, and you & he could team up !! Sounds like fun ?

[Black Diamond]

Getting to the 'nitty gritty' of all this, the truth actually is that you're an American Conservative (& no, I will NOT descend to Kath's libellous ways, and start calling you a Leftie !!) ... and one wedded to all the dogma that comes with that.

Such as, the American Constitution is absolutely perfect, inviolable ... etc.

Such as, even if certain States do start fresh outbreaks of Covid-19, it's the world's duty to 'not mind it', and be happy that you do nothing to protect anybody from it. Meanwhile, you can still run China off a cliff for starting their own pandemic, of course.

You see no fault that might impinge upon your dogma. Anyone identifying faults ... ATTACK. Launch your 'F-bomb', express regret for it, then launch another one !

... all jolly stuff ....

Those wedded to dogma can never be persuaded they're wrong. So it is that I'll never get any admission from you of being wrong in any respect whatsoever.

Cue a bit of abuse ? Come on. You know you want to .... besides, we all know that in films, the archetypal Brit must inevitably be portrayed as the villain .... so I'm ripe for it. Eh ?

And to think that you could just ban me, & that would be the end of it. Aggravation over, dogma left inviolate. Ah, well .....

Tell you what. Why not invite FJ back, and you & he could team up !! Sounds like fun ?

I don't think FJ has been banned either. Course you have him on ignore.

[STTAB]

Getting to the 'nitty gritty' of all this, the truth actually is that you're an American Conservative (& no, I will NOT descend to Kath's libellous ways, and start calling you a Leftie !!) ... and one wedded to all the dogma that comes with that.

Such as, the American Constitution is absolutely perfect, inviolable ... etc.

Such as, even if certain States do start fresh outbreaks of Covid-19, it's the world's duty to 'not mind it', and be happy that you do nothing to protect anybody from it. Meanwhile, you can still run China off a cliff for starting their own pandemic, of course.

You see no fault that might impinge upon your dogma. Anyone identifying faults ... ATTACK. Launch your 'F-bomb', express regret for it, then launch another one !

... all jolly stuff ....

Those wedded to dogma can never be persuaded they're wrong. So it is that I'll never get any admission from you of being wrong in any respect whatsoever.

Cue a bit of abuse ? Come on. You know you want to .... besides, we all know that in films, the archetypal Brit must inevitably be portrayed as the villain .... so I'm ripe for it. Eh ?

And to think that you could just ban me, & that would be the end of it. Aggravation over, dogma left inviolate. Ah, well .....

Tell you what. Why not invite FJ back, and you & he could team up !! Sounds like fun ?



I wish FJ still posted here. I'd trade him for Tyr any day of the week.

[Drummond]

and you seem unable to see yourself, against what you write. No hope.

Well, quite.


BTW, I agree with Sttab, you are not being run off, you are choosing to threaten. So be it. You are getting what you have given. Same with name calling and respect or lack of thereof.

When did I call you a Leftie ?

Who have I 'threatened', and how ?

What would you have me respect ? On what basis ?


Why would I apologize for telling the truth, 'as I define it?' LOL! Honest people tend to do so, if you miss it, that was not a derogatory thing I've just said.

You know that any claim you make of my being a Leftie, is a LIE. Try apologising for that LIE.

If that's truly beyond you, explain why your conscience doesn't bother you about it.

[Drummond]

I wish FJ still posted here. I'd trade him for Tyr any day of the week.

On that, we absolutely disagree, STTAB. Tyr is a decent Conservative, an individual who's long since earned my respect. FJ, by total contrast, was an individual specialising in sneery posts, happy to denigrate whenever his arguments were too weak to maintain (which was true all too often).

And, yes. He was a Leftie, who ridiculously tried to maintain he wasn't (and yet, relentlessly attacked various Conservatives on this forum). What Kathianne delights in falsely accusing me of, was true of FJ.

[jimnyc]

Ho Chi Minh and Joseph Stalin approve the above post.

You are not conservative, that is a delusional belief that you purported here. Several times the truth has willed out.

Thank you for the quote - and no, none of that garbage will happen here. Not a single request or demand will be honored or listened to.

[jimnyc]

No. Start your own board.

America only club? LOL - FUCK OFF is what I say again. And fuck off waiting for an apology.

Amazing, even the demands of how to run things, a lefty blossoming into it's true colors.

[STTAB]

Well, quite.



When did I call you a Leftie ?

Who have I 'threatened', and how ?

What would you have me respect ? On what basis ?



You know that any claim you make of my being a Leftie, is a LIE. Try apologising for that LIE.

If that's truly beyond you, explain why your conscience doesn't bother you about it.


I'm going to let you in on an internet asshole secret. What with me being the biggest internet asshole I know them all.

If you let people know what bothers you when they say it, people aren't going to be like "oh my bad bro, didn't realize it bothered you , I'll stop now" no , instead people are going to be like "oh you asshole, you don't like it when I say _________ then watch this"

NEVER expose your weakness. Someone calls you a lefty or a liberal? Who gives a flying fuck, just call them something and move on with your life. Trying to force an apology out of them will lead to nowhere except your frustration.

Let me tell you, one of the mods here several years ago said he'd find me and gut my wife like a fish while I watched. It's the internet man, who gives a flying fuck, I made fun of him (or her) for saying it and we went on with our lives. I get along pretty good with him (or her) now.

Kath called you a liberal , big fucking deal, I've seen SEVERAL people call her the same, she's moved on with her life . I suggest you do the same.

[jimnyc]

I'm going to let you in on an internet asshole secret. What with me being the biggest internet asshole I know them all.

If you let people know what bothers you when they say it, people aren't going to be like "oh my bad bro, didn't realize it bothered you , I'll stop now" no , instead people are going to be like "oh you asshole, you don't like it when I say _________ then watch this"

NEVER expose your weakness. Someone calls you a lefty or a liberal? Who gives a flying fuck, just call them something and move on with your life. Trying to force an apology out of them will lead to nowhere except your frustration.

Let me tell you, one of the mods here several years ago said he'd find me and gut my wife like a fish while I watched. It's the internet man, who gives a flying fuck, I made fun of him (or her) for saying it and we went on with our lives. I get along pretty good with him (or her) now.

Kath called you a liberal , big fucking deal, I've seen SEVERAL people call her the same, she's moved on with her life . I suggest you do the same.

Or, don't imitate the left's actions to a T over and over, and it makes it harder to be "libeled". Can't claim actions much against the truth.

This is an American board. In America, to claim such words are libelous is laughable, and remains so here as well.

[Drummond]

Thank you for the quote - and no, none of that garbage will happen here. Not a single request or demand will be honored or listened to.

Sounds about right.

[Drummond]

America only club? LOL - FUCK OFF is what I say again. And fuck off waiting for an apology.

Amazing, even the demands of how to run things, a lefty blossoming into it's true colors.

Actually, you are one already. The only version of Conservatism you respect is the American version.

I REQUESTED that this be recognised formally, by sparing foreign would-be contributors the opportunity of joining here, only to discover their mistake. How many Conservatives would join, thinking that you thought as they did, only to discover that there was dogma underpinning so much ?

[Drummond]

Or, don't imitate the left's actions to a T over and over, and it makes it harder to be "libeled". Can't claim actions much against the truth.

This is an American board. In America, to claim such words are libelous is laughable, and remains so here as well.

So, I'm wondering how you define libel ? Do you have a definition you'd like to enlighten us with ?

[STTAB]

Or, don't imitate the left's actions to a T over and over, and it makes it harder to be "libeled". Can't claim actions much against the truth.

This is an American board. In America, to claim such words are libelous is laughable, and remains so here as well.


Hell, you won't even apologize when you've actually done something wrong, I don't know what this guy is expecting here. :laugh::coffee:

[Black Diamond]

So, I'm wondering how you define libel ? Do you have a definition you'd like to enlighten us with ?

Hint: calling someone a "lefty" or "liberal" doesn't qualify.

[STTAB]

On that, we absolutely disagree, STTAB. Tyr is a decent Conservative, an individual who's long since earned my respect. FJ, by total contrast, was an individual specialising in sneery posts, happy to denigrate whenever his arguments were too weak to maintain (which was true all too often).

And, yes. He was a Leftie, who ridiculously tried to maintain he wasn't (and yet, relentlessly attacked various Conservatives on this forum). What Kathianne delights in falsely accusing me of, was true of FJ.


See this where I differ from many on this board , and many others as well.

I don't judge a person's worth based on whether they agree with my politics or not, and that is EXACTLY the point I've been trying to make on this board (unsuccessfully) for years. We have a few asshole posters who attempt to run off everyone who doesn't agree with them on EVERY issue. I'm not talking about your ridiculous "they called me a liberal" complaints, who gives a fuck if they called you a lefty . I'm talking about the "you are stupid and need to leave" towards people who don't agree with them, and the hilarious part is Tyr is one of if not the worst in that regard and you just defended him as a good poster simply because he's a "good conservative" all the while complaining about the board not making you feel welcome.

FJ to my recollection NEVER tried to dictate what sort of posters were acceptable members here.

Do you see how that IS exactly what liberals do, they don't accept anyone who doesn't think EXACTLY as they do, ergo Tyr , among others, who claim to be conservatives are actually lefties.

[Drummond]

I'm going to let you in on an internet asshole secret. What with me being the biggest internet asshole I know them all.

If you let people know what bothers you when they say it, people aren't going to be like "oh my bad bro, didn't realize it bothered you , I'll stop now" no , instead people are going to be like "oh you asshole, you don't like it when I say _________ then watch this"

NEVER expose your weakness. Someone calls you a lefty or a liberal? Who gives a flying fuck, just call them something and move on with your life. Trying to force an apology out of them will lead to nowhere except your frustration.

Let me tell you, one of the mods here several years ago said he'd find me and gut my wife like a fish while I watched. It's the internet man, who gives a flying fuck, I made fun of him (or her) for saying it and we went on with our lives. I get along pretty good with him (or her) now.

Kath called you a liberal , big fucking deal, I've seen SEVERAL people call her the same, she's moved on with her life . I suggest you do the same.

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the spirit intended for the comment. Thank you.

But perhaps what you've touched on here is something that helps define what makes me different.

In one word .... HONOUR.

When I accuse someone of something, it matters to me that I'm telling the truth. When I find I'm wrong, I have the reputability to admit it. I don''t just brazenly continue with the lie.

I'm not sure how true this is in America. But where I come from, we have laws that allow action to be taken against a libeller, in a court of law. Reputations can be ruined for life if the judgement is against the defendant. These things matter over here.

To me, a Leftie is slime. A Leftie is a creature that'd happily enslave me to a dogma which really exists only to consolidate repressive power. A Leftie wishes to reduce human existence to that of delusion and to a mindset totally divorced from human nature itself.

Leftieism = abomination. It's slavery. Conservatism is its lifesaving, salvationist antithesis.

So I suggest that these things matter !!!


one of the mods here several years ago said he'd find me and gut my wife like a fish while I watched.

Which Mod ? That's as disgusting as it gets, STTAB.

I don't understand why you're still here (unless it's for revenge ? :cool:).

If I'd known that story when I joined ... well ... I'd not have joined !! A true Conservative is way better than that !! We have decency. We care about our fellow man. We don't wallow in the gutter that Mod evidently lived in.

Anyway, what you're really saying is that this isn't so much a debating forum, as it is a bear pit !!

Is that really the truth of this place ? It'd explain the abuse I'm getting !

i can definitely give as good as I get. People ... care to find out ?

Thanks, STTAB. Your post has been a eye-opener. I'm indebted to you.:salute::salute:

[STTAB]

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the spirit intended for the comment. Thank you.

But perhaps what you've touched on here is something that helps define what makes me different.

In one word .... HONOUR.

When I accuse someone of something, it matters to me that I'm telling the truth. When I find I'm wrong, I have the reputability to admit it. I don''t just brazenly continue with the lie.

I'm not sure how true this is in America. But where I come from, we have laws that allow action to be taken against a libeller, in a court of law. Reputations can be ruined for life if the judgement is against the defendant. These things matter over here.

To me, a Leftie is slime. A Leftie is a creature that'd happily enslave me to a dogma which really exists only to consolidate repressive power. A Leftie wishes to reduce human existence to that of delusion and to a mindset totally divorced from human nature itself.

Leftieism = abomination. It's slavery. Conservatism is its lifesaving, salvationist antithesis.

So I suggest that these things matter !!!



Which Mod ? That's as disgusting as it gets, STTAB.

I don't understand why you're still here (unless it's for revenge ? :cool:).

If I'd known that story when I joined ... well ... I'd not have joined !! A true Conservative is way better than that !! We have decency. We care about our fellow man. We don't wallow in the gutter that Mod evidently lived in.

Anyway, what you're really saying is that this isn't so much a debating forum, as it is a bear pit !!

Is that really the truth of this place ? It'd explain the abuse I'm getting !

i can definitely give as good as I get. People ... care to find out ?

Thanks, STTAB. Your post has been a eye-opener. I'm indebted to you.:salute::salute:


I'm not going to embarrass anyone by telling you which mod, I'll just say that he (or she) did apologize , and we moved on. I only told that to illustrate that your complaint is minor, for God sakes man, if you would have just ignored such a small slight it would ended as quickly as it began.

And of course we have libel laws in the US as well, but in this country you would only win a suit if you proved the person lied , knew they were and lying when they lied, AND caused you real damages. Not "hurt my feelings" damages, but real damages, even if they were just damages to your reputation.

I'll tell you a real story on that to if you like. Before posting here I posted on USMB, a real shit hole of a message board, and I really didn't know about message boards then. I stupidly had told a few mods my real identity and then along came Syrenn who was a hateful little bitch of a poster, well she got mad at me one day and convinced a mod there to give her my real life information (note to those who know Gunny was the admin of USMB for a time, this was during his tenure, but I don't believe he was involved in this) anyway Syrenn took that information and found me in real life and attempted to harm my real life reputation by among other things calling the National Guard, where I was then employed, and even contacting my ISP and claiming that I was posting porn.

In that case yes, my wife the lawyer did contact the owner's of USMB and inform them of impending civil litigation involving them if things didn't stop. Syrenn and the mod in question were both banned shortly thereafter (and after Gunny had moved on) when it was determined what had happened.

That sir is libel, calling you a liberal is not.

[Black Diamond]

I'm not going to embarrass anyone by telling you which mod, I'll just say that he (or she) did apologize , and we moved on. I only told that to illustrate that your complaint is minor, for God sakes man, if you would have just ignored such a small slight it would ended as quickly as it began.

And of course we have libel laws in the US as well, but in this country you would only win a suit if you proved the person lied , knew they were and lying when they lied, AND caused you real damages. Not "hurt my feelings" damages, but real damages, even if they were just damages to your reputation.

I'll tell you a real story on that to if you like. Before posting here I posted on USMB, a real shit hole of a message board, and I really didn't know about message boards then. I stupidly had told a few mods my real identity and then along came Syrenn who was a hateful little bitch of a poster, well she got mad at me one day and convinced a mod there to give her my real life information (note to those who know Gunny was the admin of USMB for a time, this was during his tenure, but I don't believe he was involved in this) anyway Syrenn took that information and found me in real life and attempted to harm my real life reputation by among other things calling the National Guard, where I was then employed, and even contacting my ISP and claiming that I was posting porn.

In that case yes, my wife the lawyer did contact the owner's of USMB and inform them of impending civil litigation involving them if things didn't stop. Syrenn and the mod in question were both banned shortly thereafter (and after Gunny had moved on) when it was determined what had happened.

That sir is libel, calling you a liberal is not.

Did syrenn look like the person in her avatar?

[Drummond]

Hell, you won't even apologize when you've actually done something wrong, I don't know what this guy is expecting here. :laugh::coffee:

Not nearly as much as I was, STTAB, that's for sure.

I was expecting DECENCY.

Why ?

Because, to the best of my understanding, a Conservative is, and must be, fundamentally decent !!

However -- if this place really is the bear pit you've said it is, STTAB ... no wonder I'm getting nowhere.

You live and learn.

My thanks again !! :salute:

[STTAB]

Not nearly as much as I was, STTAB, that's for sure.

I was expecting DECENCY.

Why ?

Because, to the best of my understanding, a Conservative is, and must be, fundamentally decent !!

However -- if this place really is the bear pit you've said it is, STTAB ... no wonder I'm getting nowhere.

You live and learn.

My thanks again !! :salute:


Again, this is YOUR mistake, not the boards. People who are conservatives aren't always going to be "good people" who do what you want and expect them to do.

Nor are all liberals evil bastards out to take over the world.

All leftists are, but all liberals are not.

Ridiculous to say "I expect Jim to apologize when I feel slighted because he claims to be a conservative"

Plenty of asshole people out there who claim to be conservatives

aint that right Tyr and HPD, you two assholes.

[Drummond]

I'm not going to embarrass anyone by telling you which mod, I'll just say that he (or she) did apologize , and we moved on. I only told that to illustrate that your complaint is minor, for God sakes man, if you would have just ignored such a small slight it would ended as quickly as it began.

And of course we have libel laws in the US as well, but in this country you would only win a suit if you proved the person lied , knew they were and lying when they lied, AND caused you real damages. Not "hurt my feelings" damages, but real damages, even if they were just damages to your reputation.

I'll tell you a real story on that to if you like. Before posting here I posted on USMB, a real shit hole of a message board, and I really didn't know about message boards then. I stupidly had told a few mods my real identity and then along came Syrenn who was a hateful little bitch of a poster, well she got mad at me one day and convinced a mod there to give her my real life information (note to those who know Gunny was the admin of USMB for a time, this was during his tenure, but I don't believe he was involved in this) anyway Syrenn took that information and found me in real life and attempted to harm my real life reputation by among other things calling the National Guard, where I was then employed, and even contacting my ISP and claiming that I was posting porn.

In that case yes, my wife the lawyer did contact the owner's of USMB and inform them of impending civil litigation involving them if things didn't stop. Syrenn and the mod in question were both banned shortly thereafter (and after Gunny had moved on) when it was determined what had happened.

That sir is libel, calling you a liberal is not.

Bloody hell. What a story.

If I'd been in your position, Syrenn would've made a lifelong enemy out of me, and I'd have conducted myself accordingly ... without end. No letting up, just a perpetual feud.

I'd have seen my feud as justice. And, on my side, something honourable.

An instructive lesson. Thank you again !

[STTAB]

Bloody hell. What a story.

If I'd been in your position, Syrenn would've made a lifelong enemy out of me, and I'd have conducted myself accordingly ... without end. No letting up, just a perpetual feud.

I'd have seen my feud as justice. And, on my side, something honourable.

An instructive lesson. Thank you again !


Oh , it was a feud for many years. I never stooped to her level by trying to discover her true identity and involving her real life though.

She was a real piece of shit, that's for sure.

I'm fairly certain Gunny got some nudes of her though LOL

[Drummond]

Again, this is YOUR mistake, not the boards. People who are conservatives aren't always going to be "good people" who do what you want and expect them to do.

Shows how naive I've been, then. It isn't a matter of expecting obedience (!) ... never was. Rather, the point was to appeal to reason, to persuade.


Nor are all liberals evil bastards out to take over the world.

True. Some just settle for a country.


All leftists are, but all liberals are not.

This is wordplay. If I stuck to my roots, I'd not be using the word 'liberal' at all. Brits use the word differently.

So I'll just stick to the word 'Leftie'. Leftie = evil bastard. Works for me.


Ridiculous to say "I expect Jim to apologize when I feel slighted because he claims to be a conservative"

I expect a Conservative to be caring and decent, as well as scrupulously fair.

But, here at least, seems that all I'm exhibiting is naivety.


Plenty of asshole people out there who claim to be conservatives

... because, the words 'Conservative' and 'reputability' should go hand-in-hand.


aint that right Tyr and HPD, you two assholes.

I will always defend Tyr, as the decent, reputable and laudably patriotic individual he unquestionably is.

HPD ... he's been remarkably silent recently, so I suspect he doesn't approve of my posting. If that's true, it is a pity.

But I get your mood.

[Drummond]

Oh , it was a feud for many years. I never stooped to her level by trying to discover her true identity and involving her real life though.

She was a real piece of shit, that's for sure.

I'm fairly certain Gunny got some nudes of her though LOL:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Black Diamond]

Not nearly as much as I was, STTAB, that's for sure.

I was expecting DECENCY.

Why ?

Because, to the best of my understanding, a Conservative is, and must be, fundamentally decent !!

However -- if this place really is the bear pit you've said it is, STTAB ... no wonder I'm getting nowhere.

You live and learn.

My thanks again !! :salute:

Horseshit. I know some leftists who are decent people (they are just wrong and their vision which can never be realized will end in terror and tyranny). And I know some conservatives who are absolute monsters.

[Drummond]

Horseshit. I know some leftists who are decent people (they are just wrong and their vision which can never be realized will end in terror and tyranny). And I know some conservatives who are absolute monsters.

Horseshit yourself.

The best possible interpretation I can place on this is that we are probably just describing the realities we know from our respective countries. But I don't find that particularly convincing, I must admit.

I can conceive of a Leftie who feels he's doing something decent. Like, taxing rich people into comparative poverty, because 'they deserve it'. Or, approving of, and fighting for, a society where the State can plunder your organs after you're dead, reducing dead people to mere raw material, rather than showing RESPECT for the dead.

The Leftie concerned would argue that each action was borne out of civic decency, that each was the 'right thing to do'. But that same Leftie would also perceive the nastiness implicit in each action.

And, that Leftie WOULDN'T CARE.

A creature willing to mete out sheer inhuman nastiness, and yet had no conscience about it ... is my definition of a monster.

I'm unaware of ANY Leftie, in my part of the world, who'd hesitate to fight for each of the things I describe.

Ergo, they're all monsters.

As for Conservatives who are monsters ... h'm. I'm going to reserve judgement. I've been an advocate of Conservatism being the path towards social decency, that it is THE way, politically, by which the individual is best respected as one.

In my country, Labour create a mess. The Conservatives get elected into power, clean up the mess. An ungrateful public then votes Labour again. And so it continues, with the voting public never learning a thing .... EXCEPT ... that I think Brexit was a game changer. Constituencies that had always voted for Labour for the past hundred years, voted Conservative.

And, for why ? Because the Conservatives showed the Brexit vote a measure of respect, not seen from the Left. The Conservatives respected individual will. Labour just wanted to dictate to it.

This equates to:

Conservatives = showing respect and decency.

Labour = uncaring, would-be dictators.

Which is the monster ?

When it came to it, Conservatives and Labour people rallied around their respective Parties. Except for those voting individuals, who recognised Conservative decency, for the first time in generations.

The monsters were rejected. The decent ones gained power.

[Kathianne]

Horseshit yourself.

The best possible interpretation I can place on this is that we are probably just describing the realities we know from our respective countries. But I don't find that particularly convincing, I must admit.

I can conceive of a Leftie who feels he's doing something decent. Like, taxing rich people into comparative poverty, because 'they deserve it'. Or, approving of, and fighting for, a society where the State can plunder your organs after you're dead, reducing dead people to mere raw material, rather than showing RESPECT for the dead.

The Leftie concerned would argue that each action was borne out of civic decency, that each was the 'right thing to do'. But that same Leftie would also perceive the nastiness implicit in each action.

And, that Leftie WOULDN'T CARE.

A creature willing to mete out sheer inhuman nastiness, and yet had no conscience about it ... is my definition of a monster.

I'm unaware of ANY Leftie, in my part of the world, who'd hesitate to fight for each of the things I describe.

Ergo, they're all monsters.

As for Conservatives who are monsters ... h'm. I'm going to reserve judgement. I've been an advocate of Conservatism being the path towards social decency, that it is THE way, politically, by which the individual is best respected as one.

In my country, Labour create a mess. The Conservatives get elected into power, clean up the mess. An ungrateful public then votes Labour again. And so it continues, with the voting public never learning a thing .... EXCEPT ... that I think Brexit was a game changer. Constituencies that had always voted for Labour for the past hundred years, voted Conservative.

And, for why ? Because the Conservatives showed the Brexit vote a measure of respect, not seen from the Left. The Conservatives respected individual will. Labour just wanted to dictate to it.

This equates to:

Conservatives = showing respect and decency.

Labour = uncaring, would-be dictators.

Which is the monster ?

When it came to it, Conservatives and Labour people rallied around their respective Parties. Except for those voting individuals, who recognised Conservative decency, for the first time in generations.

The monsters were rejected. The decent ones gained power.

No dogma there. :rolleyes:

[STTAB]

No dogma there. :rolleyes:


I only regret that I have but one like to give for this post.

[Drummond]

No dogma there. :rolleyes:

Precious little. I describe what I've observed.

[Drummond]

I only regret that I have but one like to give for this post.

Funny, that. I keep looking for the 'dislike' option ....

[Black Diamond]

Funny, that. I keep looking for the 'dislike' option ....

Clearly a board that welcomed foreigners would accommodate your request.

[jimnyc]

I only regret that I have but one like to give for this post.

I gave a thanks and like in your honor.

[Kathianne]

Clearly a board that welcomed foreigners would accommodate your request.
:laugh2: Certainly. They would also reflect the left with, "Of course you're correct; how dare those old, dead guys not address pandemics and nuclear holocaust, except through interpretation." LOL!

[Black Diamond]

:laugh2: Certainly. They would also reflect the left with, "Of course you're correct; how dare those old, dead guys not address pandemics and nuclear holocaust, except through interpretation." LOL!

:laugh2:

[STTAB]

:laugh2: Certainly. They would also reflect the left with, "Of course you're correct; how dare those old, dead guys not address pandemics and nuclear holocaust, except through interpretation." LOL!


On another board the other day I had some asshole arguing that the 2nd Amendment was NEVER intended to protect our right to own a semi automatic rifle the likes of which the founding fathers couldn't even have dreamed of.

I responded that in that case the first amendment didn't apply to posting anything online so Trump ought tell them to shut the fuck up.

The wailing and gnashing is still going on.

[Black Diamond]

Precious little. I describe what I've observed.

No. Ones political views could line up perfectly with Gunnys, revelarts, Kathiannes, or Jim's (none of these folks are lefties but their views vary considerably from one another's) and still be abusive self centered narcissistic monsters who destroy companies and people's lives to feed their own ugliness. One doesn't need to be a lefty to pull it off.

[Kathianne]

No. Ones political views could line up perfectly with Gunnys, revelarts, Kathiannes, or Jim's (none of these folks are lefties but their views vary considerably from one another's) and still be abusive self centered narcissistic monsters who destroy companies and people's lives to feed their own ugliness. One doesn't need to be a lefty to pull it off.

Thank you! Why does only Jim get the possessive apostrophe? :laugh2:

[Kathianne]

Just came across this, thought it so apropos to the discussion and what I've been saying over and over again:

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/372566/


MAY 13, 2020


THEY’LL ALSO START LEAVING HOME BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT TELLS THEM TO: Most Americans stayed home before government COVID-19 mandates. (https://www.upi.com/Health_News/2020/05/12/Most-Americans-stayed-home-before-government-COVID-19-mandates/6021589290003/?sl=5) “Most Americans voluntarily stayed at home during the early days of the COVID-19 tsunami, before states began issuing official ‘shelter-in-place’ orders, new research indicates. Why? Because statewide emergency declarations coupled with news — of first infections, first fatalities and school closures — were motivation enough to get folks to stay home. This was more motivating than quarantine mandates imposed weeks later, say investigators.”
People are thinking for themselves, which is problematic.That's Americans for you. They listen to the 'leaders.' They listen to the scientists. Then they make their choices.

[Drummond]

No. Ones political views could line up perfectly with Gunnys, revelarts, Kathiannes, or Jim's (none of these folks are lefties but their views vary considerably from one another's) and still be abusive self centered narcissistic monsters who destroy companies and people's lives to feed their own ugliness. One doesn't need to be a lefty to pull it off.

Much more of this, and I might have to conclude that America really isn't a nice place.

Maybe the dividing lines between Rightie and Leftie behaviour are rather more blurred on your side of the Pond ? Which is disturbing, because that'd mean that the Left have less progress to make to win out in your society than I'd hoped was true.

But I've learned a lesson today. Your people and mine have far less in common than I'd thought. What's truly mind-boggling is that it's taken me literally years to find it out.

[Drummond]

Just came across this, thought it so apropos to the discussion and what I've been saying over and over again:

https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/372566/

That's Americans for you. They listen to the 'leaders.' They listen to the scientists. Then they make their choices.


I'm sure that's true. Then, watch the death tolls climb. Unnecessarily so.

But, yes. It was their choice.

[Kathianne]

Much more of this, and I might have to conclude that America really isn't a nice place.

Maybe the dividing lines between Rightie and Leftie behaviour are rather more blurred on your side of the Pond ? Which is disturbing, because that'd mean that the Left have less progress to make to win out in your society than I'd hoped was true.

But I've learned a lesson today. Your people and mine have far less in common than I'd thought. What's truly mind-boggling is that it's taken me literally years to find it out.

Likewise, you've managed to make many understand why the colonies had to throw off the old world of Redcoats. Stifling.

[Drummond]

Likewise, you've managed to make many understand why the colonies had to throw off the old world of Redcoats. Stifling.

Redcoats haven't existed for centuries. Since that's true, your jibe has zero impact. 'Sorry'.

But explain it to me. Why is a death wish preferable to recognising the wisdom an authority may be showing you ? What is so terrible about an authority that works for your welfare ?

One that cares about individual human life, and works to preserve it ?

What's so terrible about that ?

[Kathianne]

Redcoats haven't existed for centuries. Since that's true, your jibe has zero impact. 'Sorry'.

But explain it to me. Why is a death wish preferable to recognising the wisdom an authority may be showing you ? What is so terrible about an authority that works for your welfare ?

One that cares about individual human life, and works to preserve it ?

What's so terrible about that ?

Yeah on the redcoats, but they were made of men like yourself, well except those that decided to stay after the war.

Better would have said that the new world were irresistibly drawn to thinking and governing themselves. Those old, dead guys found a possible way and enshrined it in the Constitution. So far, us deplorables have been able to find a way to making it work, while doing much more than our part in helping our 'betters' out of several wars and the aftermaths.

No thanks needed. You wouldn't understand.

[Gunny]

I'm aware that you don't want to address anyone specifically. For myself, one individual here - making the sickest joke, EVER - once called me a Leftie.

At the time, I took it for what it was: not only a libel, but probably the nastiest insult anyone could pay me.

That individual has never found the decency to apologise. Quite a pity .. but, that's the truth of it.

Now, if I'm to believe what I read, that belief is held by more than one individual here. Yeahh ... I'm so much of a 'Leftie', that I want the creed wiped from the planet, and have said so, several times !!

Let's get down to a fundamental truth, something I've only recently realised.

An American Conservative has no precise equivalent, anywhere beyond America !! American Conservatism has its share of dogma driving it, and the nature of that difference is specifically American, in origin, and in character.

So, I'm not as much like other people here as I thought I was.

For me, Conservatism = realism. Realism about the nature of the world, and realism about human nature. Any belief system failing to respect an individual AS an individual, and failing to serve that individual's needs, and aspirations ... not only cannot ultimately endure without repression, but inevitably gets mired in a dogma intended to overrule the deficiencies the system foists upon that individual.

So it is that I'm a Conservative .. one NOT mired in dogma, one facing the real world in real terms. I'm a Conservative believing that the individual is all-important.

This makes me different from the other Conservatives here.

Covid-19 has forced an unwelcome reality upon the world. So, it needs a realistic solution, one that respects the individual.

My own Government is applying that approach. As well it might, because it's a Conservative Government.

Anyway ... I could easily develop that to make other judgements, but, heyy, if I do, nobody will listen, and I'll probably get more insults and outright lies directed at me. So no good purpose is served by bothering.

It all comes down to this. You Conservatives, here, have a truly unique brand of Conservatism going for you. By and large, you're intolerant to any beliefs not matching it. So, the simple truth, is this: DEBATE POLICY NEEDS TO BECOME AN AMERICA-ONLY CLUB.

I'm aware that Jim resists that idea, and will probably continue to reject it. But the fact is, that people on here who do not fit in, ultimately end up being made to regret it.

Well, be honest. They do, don't they ?

How well do foreigners tend to do, here, anyway ?

I'm guessing that no foreigner has ever lasted here as long as I have.

I've had a good run here. But in the end, I've had abuse and lies flung my way. And for what ? FOR BEING A GOOD CONSERVATIVE, LOYAL TO HIS COUNTRY AND HIS BELIEFS.

'Nice', eh, folks ?

So: face reality (well, why not ?). Make this an America-only club. Only American Conservatism is tolerated here.My comment was in response to a member mentioning apologies. While it had to do with the topic of this pandemic, it had nothing to do specifically with anyone on this board, nor the direction your discourse has taken.

As far as that goes, I would not call you a "lefty", I believe you are a British conservative. That term being relevant to your society and law. I have told you before that in comparison, Britain/British conservatives are to the left of American conservatives. You took offense, got nasty and I bailed, choosing not to pursue trying to talk to a wall. This was awhile back, and had nothing to do with the current coronavirus. It isn't calling you a lefty. It's saying your (UK's) politics are fundamentally to the left of the US's.

The mere fact that you are calling for and expecting your government to protect you is proof enough on that score. Your one size fits all plan may work in an environment such as yours, but it does not work here. I will give you an example. You want an edict from on high demanding our "rogue" governors fall into line with a one size fits all federal plan. That will not work here. Not only will it not work, it's needlessly punishing many who do not require such a plan. That's not to mention that the Federal government has no such authority at this time. It is not only a wise decision situation-wise on the President's part to leave the issue to state governments ince we aren't a one size fits all nation, but it is a wise decision to keep himself out of it politically because of all the needless BS his involvement would bring from the MSM/left.

When I say "situation-wise", here is an example: I live in Bexar County, San Antonio, TX. From the start to this moment, we have had 57 total deaths related to COVID. That is NOT the situation in the Northeast. Jim sounds like he's wearing MOPP level 3 gear to walk his dog. It's a lot more real there than it is here. Point is, we don't need to be shut down like NYC here. Fortunately, we have a State Governor HERE to make the call for the people of this state. He's not a rogue. He's within the Rights of his office to make such a call, and we, the People of Texas voted for him to make such a call.

You mention individuality but it appears to be only if that individual(s) agrees with you and your government on what to do. The Federal government isn't going to come save me. Neither is the State government for that matter. So get the f*ck out of MY way and don't be telling me how to handle the situation.

What drew my attention to this thread to begin with, this virus started in China. NOT the US. Any deaths as a result regardless who does what is on China. Not the US. THAT was a "what-iffery" dig at the US that was better left not said. You started a fight and I don't think you're dumb enough to not know it was going to.

In the end, the US government is responsible to the people of the US, not the World. I fully expect it to begin there. If we got leftovers, the rest are welcome to them.

So tell me ... how long can the Earth stand still before the global infrastructure collapses? Until the last scared rabbit crawls from its hole? Push comes to shove, my responsibility is to me and my family and if I have to go to work so be it.

[Drummond]

Yeah on the redcoats, but they were made of men like yourself, well except those that decided to stay after the war.

Better would have said that the new world were irresistibly drawn to thinking and governing themselves. Those old, dead guys found a possible way and enshrined it in the Constitution. So far, us deplorables have been able to find a way to making it work, while doing much more than our part in helping our 'betters' out of several wars and the aftermaths.

No thanks needed. You wouldn't understand.

No attempt of yours to suggest any moral high ground will work with me ... certainly, at least, not for as long as you so much as hint that I'm anything other than a Conservative.

Your Constitution is a fine document. It's problem, though, is that it isn't up to the challenge of addressing today's problems. Covid-19 illustrates that well. I've asked repeatedly whether or not your Constitution addresses, or hints at addressing, pandemic conditions. Nobody's been able to tell me that it does.

So, my point's proven.

Decentralisation of authority isn't an all-purpose solution to problems, and that's being shown, with some rogue States threatening their independent actions. Those actions WILL kill, unnecessarily and avoidably. Please, tell me that your founders intended that fate on Americans. Or, tell me what the solution is.

[Kathianne]

No attempt of yours to suggest any moral high ground will work with me ... certainly, at least, not for as long as you so much as hint that I'm anything other than a Conservative.

Your Constitution is a fine document. It's problem, though, is that it isn't up to the challenge of addressing today's problems. Covid-19 illustrates that well. I've asked repeatedly whether or not your Constitution addresses, or hints at addressing, pandemic conditions. Nobody's been able to tell me that it does.

So, my point's proven.

Decentralisation of authority isn't an all-purpose solution to problems, and that's being shown, with some rogue States threatening their independent actions. Those actions WILL kill, unnecessarily and avoidably. Please, tell me that your founders intended that fate on Americans. Or, tell me what the solution is.

You've yet to prove anything other than your superiority complex, that not one other thus far agrees with. Indeed, for most you've proven being a hypocrite from what you've written over the years.

[Black Diamond]

Thank you! Why does only Jim get the possessive apostrophe? :laugh2:

ROFL

Apostrophes are reserved for head honcho.

[Black Diamond]

Redcoats haven't existed for centuries. Since that's true, your jibe has zero impact. 'Sorry'.

But explain it to me. Why is a death wish preferable to recognising the wisdom an authority may be showing you ? What is so terrible about an authority that works for your welfare ?

One that cares about individual human life, and works to preserve it ?

What's so terrible about that ?

I would love for revelarts to respond to this. I am going to make some popcorn when he signs on here.

[Gunny]

No attempt of yours to suggest any moral high ground will work with me ... certainly, at least, not for as long as you so much as hint that I'm anything other than a Conservative.

Your Constitution is a fine document. It's problem, though, is that it isn't up to the challenge of addressing today's problems. Covid-19 illustrates that well. I've asked repeatedly whether or not your Constitution addresses, or hints at addressing, pandemic conditions. Nobody's been able to tell me that it does.

So, my point's proven.

Decentralisation of authority isn't an all-purpose solution to problems, and that's being shown, with some rogue States threatening their independent actions. Those actions WILL kill, unnecessarily and avoidably. Please, tell me that your founders intended that fate on Americans. Or, tell me what the solution is.I think you have reached the stage of ridiculousness :rolleyes:

[Drummond]

My comment was in response to a member mentioning apologies. While it had to do with the topic of this pandemic, it had nothing to do specifically with anyone on this board, nor the direction your discourse has taken.

As far as that goes, I would not call you a "lefty", I believe you are a British conservative. That term being relevant to your society and law. I have told you before that in comparison, Britain/British conservatives are to the left of American conservatives. You took offense, got nasty and I bailed, choosing not to pursue trying to talk to a wall. This was awhile back, and had nothing to do with the current coronavirus. It isn't calling you a lefty. It's saying your (UK's) politics are fundamentally to the left of the US's.

Let me thank you for your far greater effort to strike a proper balance than has been true of others here.

I'm glad we can agree I'm not a Leftie .. regardless of your context qualifier. In the debating climate of today, that counts as progress.

On reflection, yes, I can agree that my Conservatives are to the left of yours. Subjects such as abortion, same sex marriage, support for the NHS, rejection of gun ownership ... all these argue your case for you.

However, I have been called a Leftie. I have no reason to accept the jibe.


The mere fact that you are calling for and expecting your government to protect you is proof enough on that score. Your one size fits all plan may work in an environment such as yours, but it does not work here.

Possibly you're right. Smaller landmass, smaller population. Therefore, a less cumbersome Governmental machinery. We could copy your system, by empowering County Councils, to operate as your States do. But nobody sees an advantage in that .. to the extent that anyone has even thought about it.


I will give you an example. You want an edict from on high demanding our "rogue" governors fall into line with a one size fits all federal plan. That will not work here. Not only will it not work, it's needlessly punishing many who do not require such a plan. That's not to mention that the Federal government has no such authority at this time. It is not only a wise decision situation-wise on the President's part to leave the issue to state governments ince we aren't a one size fits all nation, but it is a wise decision to keep himself out of it politically because of all the needless BS his involvement would bring from the MSM/left.

I just want lives saved, and coming from that, I don't want the virus to spread and mutate. But opening up economies this soon is asking for trouble.

Do the people in the States we're discussing really want to die ?? IS IT a death wish ?


When I say "situation-wise", here is an example: I live in Bexar County, San Antonio, TX. From the start to this moment, we have had 57 total deaths related to COVID. That is NOT the situation in the Northeast. Jim sounds like he's wearing MOPP level 3 gear to walk his dog. It's a lot more real there than it is here. Point is, we don't need to be shut down like NYC here. Fortunately, we have a State Governor HERE to make the call for the people of this state. He's not a rogue. He's within the Rights of his office to make such a call, and we, the People of Texas voted for him to make such a call.

Texas is a very big State. Population density, overall, must be low, far lower than in places like NYC. The low population density makes it hard for the virus to spread. However .. to what extent will that advantage be lost, if lockdowns end ?

The more a virus spreads, and the longer it remains viable, so the greater the chance it has to mutate. Mutate, to become HOW deadly ? Has anybody given that any thought ?


You mention individuality but it appears to be only if that individual(s) agrees with you and your government on what to do.

There are good choices, and bad choices. My Government has made good choices. There is therefore no reason not to respect their leadership.

Facts are facts.


The Federal government isn't going to come save me.

I'm sorry to hear it.


Neither is the State government for that matter.

Ditto.


So get the f*ck out of MY way and don't be telling me how to handle the situation.

Thanks for the abuse. I gave you none.


What drew my attention to this thread to begin with, this virus started in China. NOT the US. Any deaths as a result regardless who does what is on China. Not the US. THAT was a "what-iffery" dig at the US that was better left not said. You started a fight and I don't think you're dumb enough to not know it was going to.

What I started, was an examination of what may well be an emerging, and evolving, situation ... in which the virus grows exponentially, hopefully NOT to mutate (?). Yes, the virus started in China, and China started a pandemic wave. My simple question, is: why create a situation that might duplicate what they did ?


In the end, the US government is responsible to the people of the US, not the World. I fully expect it to begin there. If we got leftovers, the rest are welcome to them.

Then please explain to me why China can't make the very same case for itself.

You rightly hold China accountable for their actions. But you say that the US earns no comparable accountability for what it may choose.


So tell me ... how long can the Earth stand still before the global infrastructure collapses? Until the last scared rabbit crawls from its hole? Push comes to shove, my responsibility is to me and my family and if I have to go to work so be it.

That's the big danger, isn't it, & the one people aren't acknowledging. It may be that every single time any country ever relaxes its lockdown rules, the virus will be given a new lease of life.

I'd just suggest this. Lockdowns save lives, and allow healthcare systems not to overload. All of this buys time for laboratories in various countries to try and find a vaccine or cure.

I think that as a time-buying measure, it has great worth. Lifesaving worth.

But then, that's just me talking. Better to ignore me, because I'm me ....

[jimnyc]

I think you have reached the stage of ridiculousness :rolleyes:

I explained what our constitution was designed for many times. It's simply not a document intended for such expectations. One would need to look at laws and mandates on the books for how to handle various health emergencies.

It also says nothing about how to handle an emergency of any kinda really - AS THAT'S NOT WHAT IT IS FOR.

[Drummond]

I think you have reached the stage of ridiculousness :rolleyes:

Thanks, Gunny. Very kind.

It's that old principle at work, isn't it ? When good, solid arguments run out of steam, but you still don't want to concede, then along comes a bit of abuse to plug the gap.

Possibly you do mean it personally .. but, I'm not taking it that way. You're simply applying a form of strategy that you think will serve you well.

I get it.

[Drummond]

I explained what our constitution was designed for many times. It's simply not a document intended for such expectations. One would need to look at laws and mandates on the books for how to handle various health emergencies.

It also says nothing about how to handle an emergency of any kinda really - AS THAT'S NOT WHAT IT IS FOR.:clap::clap::clap::clap:

EXCELLENT.

OK, then. I think my case is basically made. You need to refer to 'laws and mandates' to know how to proceed.

That's not a million miles from what the UK does (with the difference of centralisation v decentralisation, depending on what side of the Pond you are). It's only a question of who has the greatest authority to wield.

So, then. 'Laws and mandates'.

Chew that one over.

[Black Diamond]

Thanks, Gunny. Very kind.

It's that old principle at work, isn't it ? When good, solid arguments run out of steam, but you still don't want to concede, then along comes a bit of abuse to plug the gap.

Possibly you do mean it personally .. but, I'm not taking it that way. You're simply applying a form of strategy that you think will serve you well.

I get it.

Somewhere the smallest violin in the world is being played in recognition of the abuse you have endured on this board. Hell the Queen should award you with some sort of medal.

[Kathianne]

Somewhere the smallest violin in the world is being played in recognition of the abuse you have endured on this board. Hell the Queen should award you with some sort of medal.
My favorite post of the day! 🤩

[Drummond]

Somewhere the smallest violin in the world is being played in recognition of the abuse you have endured on this board. Hell the Queen should award you with some sort of medal.

With the exception that the violin should be larger, I'd say ... spot on !

I've been a good friend to America over the years. Much of that time was spent posting on this forum.

And to think that, throughout that time, I was so mind-numbingly stupid as to not understand that so-called 'friends' here would happily turn on me as they have, over these past couple of days.

STTAB has brought me to my senses, and I thank him very much for his posting here today. The truth is, and always has been, that this place is at least as much of a bear pit as it is a place where reasonable discussion is possible.

You live and learn. Truth is, it's very hard to identify who can be trusted here. Perhaps the very attempt is futile.

I'm looking forward to that medal.:cool:

[Abbey Marie]

I'm going to let you in on an internet asshole secret. What with me being the biggest internet asshole I know them all.

If you let people know what bothers you when they say it, people aren't going to be like "oh my bad bro, didn't realize it bothered you , I'll stop now" no , instead people are going to be like "oh you asshole, you don't like it when I say _________ then watch this"

NEVER expose your weakness. Someone calls you a lefty or a liberal? Who gives a flying fuck, just call them something and move on with your life. Trying to force an apology out of them will lead to nowhere except your frustration.

Let me tell you, one of the mods here several years ago said he'd find me and gut my wife like a fish while I watched. It's the internet man, who gives a flying fuck, I made fun of him (or her) for saying it and we went on with our lives. I get along pretty good with him (or her) now.

Kath called you a liberal , big fucking deal, I've seen SEVERAL people call her the same, she's moved on with her life . I suggest you do the same.

Man, you promised you’d never out me on my knife-wielding fantasy. Now I suppose I’m going to have to come up with a new threat. :rolleyes:

[Drummond]

My favorite post of the day! 🤩

Mine, too. Between that post, and invaluable ones from STTAB earlier on, my stupidity over these past years is amply illustrated.

Oh, and Kath, when was the last time you called me a Leftie ? You seem to be slipping ...

[Gunny]

Let me thank you for your far greater effort to strike a proper balance than has been true of others here.

I'm glad we can agree I'm not a Leftie .. regardless of your context qualifier. In the debating climate of today, that counts as progress.

On reflection, yes, I can agree that my Conservatives are to the left of yours. Subjects such as abortion, same sex marriage, support for the NHS, rejection of gun ownership ... all these argue your case for you.

However, I have been called a Leftie. I have no reason to accept the jibe.



Possibly you're right. Smaller landmass, smaller population. Therefore, a less cumbersome Governmental machinery. We could copy your system, by empowering County Councils, to operate as your States do. But nobody sees an advantage in that .. to the extent that anyone has even thought about it.



I just want lives saved, and coming from that, I don't want the virus to spread and mutate. But opening up economies this soon is asking for trouble.

Do the people in the States we're discussing really want to die ?? IS IT a death wish ?



Texas is a very big State. Population density, overall, must be low, far lower than in places like NYC. The low population density makes it hard for the virus to spread. However .. to what extent will that advantage be lost, if lockdowns end ?

The more a virus spreads, and the longer it remains viable, so the greater the chance it has to mutate. Mutate, to become HOW deadly ? Has anybody given that any thought ?



There are good choices, and bad choices. My Government has made good choices. There is therefore no reason not to respect their leadership.

Facts are facts.



I'm sorry to hear it.



Ditto.



Thanks for the abuse. I gave you none.



What I started, was an examination of what may well be an emerging, and evolving, situation ... in which the virus grows exponentially, hopefully NOT to mutate (?). Yes, the virus started in China, and China started a pandemic wave. My simple question, is: why create a situation that might duplicate what they did ?



Then please explain to me why China can't make the very same case for itself.

You rightly hold China accountable for their actions. But you say that the US earns no comparable accountability for what it may choose.



That's the big danger, isn't it, & the one people aren't acknowledging. It may be that every single time any country ever relaxes its lockdown rules, the virus will be given a new lease of life.

I'd just suggest this. Lockdowns save lives, and allow healthcare systems not to overload. All of this buys time for laboratories in various countries to try and find a vaccine or cure.

I think that as a time-buying measure, it has great worth. Lifesaving worth.

But then, that's just me talking. Better to ignore me, because I'm me ....Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, and Austin which is dragging San Antonio down with it are all huge cities -- all in the Top Ten largest cities in the US (except Austin) -- and have the same population density as all the other huge cities. Yes, we are more spread out than Eastern cities because that's how we live here. Not spread out enough for me.

On conservatism, one of the mainstay conservative principles is smaller government and government at the lowest level. That is a tenet of American conservatism. We consider government an intrusion. Beyond that, identifying oneself as a conservative is a convenient label for us. Me, anyway. I have conservative beliefs, old-school liberal beliefs, and am probably more of a libertarian than anything else. More importantly, it identifies me to others as not a stupid leftwinger. But not one of us that label ourselves conservative on this board agree in principle on everything, nor even to the same degrees.

You use the term as a universal term with a single definition that describes everyone that declares themselves conservative. Conservatives in the US aren't the same from region to region. Some are more liberal and others more hard-line. Some are fanatics. The term however is relevant.

China cannot make any moral argument simply because of its deceit and its carelessness experimenting with a deadly virus. Remember, this whole situation would not exist without that.

As far as abuse goes, I intended none, but I feel an apology is not warranted in consideration of the fact you have attacked our government and the US Constitution; which, under most circumstances leaves you open to all the abuse that can be hurled your way.

You are taking an ongoing argument with no answer to the extreme, and personally attacking us as a people and Nation simply because we don't agree with your assessment of the aforementioned argument with no answer. You do not know for a fact, with evidence, that the lockdown has saved even one life. Nor do I. Nor can either of us say what will happen if we stay locked down or choose to open back up.

I do know this and I was taught it as a Pvt in the Marine Corps: Stay in place and you're a sitting duck. Move forward. It holds as true in my mind under current circumstances as it does in a firefight.

[Kathianne]

Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, and Austin which is dragging San Antonio down with it are all huge cities -- all in the Top Ten largest cities in the US (except Austin) -- and have the same population density as all the other huge cities. Yes, we are more spread out than Eastern cities because that's how we live here. Not spread out enough for me.

On conservatism, one of the mainstay conservative principles is smaller government and government at the lowest level. That is a tenet of American conservatism. We consider government an intrusion. Beyond that, identifying oneself as a conservative is a convenient label for us. Me, anyway. I have conservative beliefs, old-school liberal beliefs, and am probably more of a libertarian than anything else. More importantly, it identifies me to others as not a stupid leftwinger. But not one of us that label ourselves conservative on this board agree in principle on everything, nor even to the same degrees.

You use the term as a universal term with a single definition that describes everyone that declares themselves conservative. Conservatives in the US aren't the same from region to region. Some are more liberal and others more hard-line. Some are fanatics. The term however is relevant.

China cannot make any moral argument simply because of its deceit and its carelessness experimenting with a deadly virus. Remember, this whole situation would not exist without that.

As far as abuse goes, I intended none, but I feel an apology is not warranted in consideration of the fact you have attacked our government and the US Constitution; which, under most circumstances leaves you open to all the abuse that can be hurled your way.

You are taking an ongoing argument with no answer to the extreme, and personally attacking us as a people and Nation simply because we don't agree with your assessment of the aforementioned argument with no answer. You do not know for a fact, with evidence, that the lockdown has saved even one life. Nor do I. Nor can either of us say what will happen if we stay locked down or choose to open back up.

I do know this and I was taught it as a Pvt in the Marine Corps: Stay in place and you're a sitting duck. Move forward. It holds as true in my mind under current circumstances as it does in a firefight.
Agreed. Drummond has said nothing new since he was for the science based herd, then changed because of. Johnson. Conservative.

They followed US then, now doing it again. If Drummond had just held out a few days, none of this would have happened.

[Gunny]

Thanks, Gunny. Very kind.

It's that old principle at work, isn't it ? When good, solid arguments run out of steam, but you still don't want to concede, then along comes a bit of abuse to plug the gap.

Possibly you do mean it personally .. but, I'm not taking it that way. You're simply applying a form of strategy that you think will serve you well.

I get it.Excuse me for not understanding you attacking members personally, attacking our Nation, and our Constitution. Actually, I DO get why, but that is another matter. I've stayed out of this whole coronavirus argument from the beginning so I don't needlessly piss anyone off. If I go out to piss off someone, I got a reason in my bag for doing so.

You talk about saving lives is the most important thing to you. Okay. I can buy that. I can buy it enough that I'm not going to sit here on a message board and tell others how they should be taking care of themselves, their families and their responsibilities. Nor do I tell you how to run your country.

You not only want to tell us how to run our country, but assign blame to us if we don't do things your way.

Do you not think that everyone here is hoping for a good ending to all this? Perhaps you think we make decisions lightly? You aren't more knowledgeable than anyone else on here, in general. We are all looking at the same biological disease you are. And we're all trying to make the right decisions knowing every decision is taking a chance.

Taking your fear out on us isn't solving a damned thing.

[Abbey Marie]

I'm not sure if this is supportive of me, or not. Probably, it amounts to a generalised comment, applying to anyone.

Regardless: thank you for holding that outlook, Abbey.

Jim has said he has me on 'ignore' (which says volumes; he needs to ignore me, because I challenge his beliefs !). So, there's no point in making this plea directly to him.

May I ask you, then, as an Admin yourself, here, to pass on my recommendation, and to do all you can to convince Jim of its wisdom ?

I ask that you persuade him to ban all non-Americans from Debate Policy, and to make sure that any who want to join here will be refused membership.


It's a fact that foreigners who do join, tend to end up regretting it. I'd like to be the foreigner who saves future foreigners from going through that experience. So, please assist, Abbey. Arrange my banning, and keep non-Americans away from this board ... please.

Thanks for your efforts in this regard ... appreciated. :salute:

I missed this request. Skimming this thread it’s clear that Jim already knows what you’ve asked.
As for keeping non-Americans from joining, that is def not going to happen. No one on staff, including me, would ever do that. Also, I feel compelled to mention that it’s not really cool to demand that an owner change his policies for you.

I wouldn’t ban you, either. That’s not how we roll. And you may have noticed or not, but staff gets along and tends to agree on a lot. You’d have to do a lot worse that that.

I’m sorry if I’ve disappointed you. We don’t need to hash this out. I just wanted to answer your requests of me.
Hope you decide to stay...

[Drummond]

Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, and Austin which is dragging San Antonio down with it are all huge cities -- all in the Top Ten largest cities in the US (except Austin) -- and have the same population density as all the other huge cities. Yes, we are more spread out than Eastern cities because that's how we live here. Not spread out enough for me.

Fair point. OK, I concede that.


On conservatism, one of the mainstay conservative principles is smaller government and government at the lowest level. That is a tenet of American conservatism. We consider government an intrusion.

I've seen that argument before. I'd agree up to a point ... I don't like 'big Government' either, but what I mean by that is that the authoritarianism coming from it shouldn't be top-heavy. Governments are fine, so long as people are recognised as worthwhile individuals, to be genuinely respected as such.

It's why I would never respect a Labour Government. They would use the machinery of Government just to build a bigger and more encompassing power base for themselves.

Good Government, surely, isn't to do with its size, but rather the laws and dogma (if any) it exercises. I'd always cite Boris Johnson's Government as a good one, even though he's done more to curb individual freedoms than any politician in living memory. He simply did what he had to do, for the greatest possible good. He adapted to the reality that is Covid-19.


Beyond that, identifying oneself as a conservative is a convenient label for us. Me, anyway. I have conservative beliefs, old-school liberal beliefs, and am probably more of a libertarian than anything else. More importantly, it identifies me to others as not a stupid leftwinger. But not one of us that label ourselves conservative on this board agree in principle on everything, nor even to the same degrees.

Fair enough. The biggest single reason I have for being a Conservative is that Conservatism is the best antidote to Leftieism there is.

That Conservatism recognises and respects individualism, and works with human aspiration, is also important.


You use the term as a universal term with a single definition that describes everyone that declares themselves conservative. Conservatives in the US aren't the same from region to region. Some are more liberal and others more hard-line. Some are fanatics. The term however is relevant.

A product of centralisation here, then. Point taken.


China cannot make any moral argument simply because of its deceit and its carelessness experimenting with a deadly virus. Remember, this whole situation would not exist without that.

Depends on what you believe. The theory most accepted here is that it was an accidental release, totally unforeseen, from one of China's 'wet markets', facilitated by somebody's disgusting liking for bat soup. We're aware of Trump's claim to have seen intelligence material showing it originated from a lab, but as Trump didn't publish that evidence, our lot still favour the 'wet market' theory.

An argument against the US would be that, knowing exactly what they were dealing with in Covid-19, the US would still facilitate conditions that saw to it that it freely spread. You don't have to be a genius to see that this could lead to a second pandemic wave.


As far as abuse goes, I intended none

Thank you !


.. but I feel an apology is not warranted in consideration of the fact you have attacked our government and the US Constitution; which, under most circumstances leaves you open to all the abuse that can be hurled your way.

So, suddenly, respect for free speech goes completely out the window ?

I'm not aware that I've attacked your Government .. I'm still a Trump admirer. But if you mean State Government, well ... my understanding was that a rogue State, Georgia, had a Governor who'd unilaterally decided to end the lockdown in his State. Trump had advised him it was too early. That Governor ignored him.

Should anybody threatening gratuitous levels of mass death upon innocent people, earn respect ? I struggle to see that any is earned.

But then, I don't want Americans to die.

I did not attack the US Constitution. All I did was tell the truth about its obvious limitations. I even qualified this by asking anybody to show me how the Constitution addressed and covered the question of how you meet the challenge of a pandemic. Of course, nobody did so ... BECAUSE I TOLD THE TRUTH ABOUT ITS LIMITATIONS.

I am open to the abuse coming my way, but by no stretch of the imagination have I earned it. All I did was tell the truth about it.

No. Here's the real truth, Gunny. The US Constitution is so revered that Americans treat it like a sacred religion. What I got was a reprisal because my level of worship did not equal that of Americans. Criticism = blasphemy. That's despite the fact that all I did was TELL THE TRUTH.


You are taking an ongoing argument with no answer to the extreme, and personally attacking us as a people and Nation simply because we don't agree with your assessment of the aforementioned argument with no answer. You do not know for a fact, with evidence, that the lockdown has saved even one life. Nor do I. Nor can either of us say what will happen if we stay locked down or choose to open back up.

I have not attacked either your people or your nation. Wanting lives saved, is not an attack !!!

But you're wrong on one point. I do know that lockdowns save lives. The science says so. Every scrap of commonsense says so. Check out how badly Brazil's doing, under Bolsonaro. Note Sweden, which appears not to be doing too badly, until you understand that they have a low population, and are doing a lot worse than their neighbouring countries, who are applying lockdowns.

If lockdowns don't save lives, then spikes occurring after relaxations will never happen. Can you seriously tell me that this is true ?


I do know this and I was taught it as a Pvt in the Marine Corps: Stay in place and you're a sitting duck. Move forward. It holds as true in my mind under current circumstances as it does in a firefight.

England, 1665; the Great Plague. Moving from one infection hotspot to another was the equivalent of a death wish in action.

A firefight involves military hardware. Covid-19 isn't remotely similar.

No, Gunny. If I've 'earned' anyone's displeasure here, it's for not acknowledging that no outsider dares tell of your Constitution's limitations, no matter how true they are. I should've realised that Americans do treat that document as though it was a complete and entire religion.

My truth is met by lies about my supposed 'Leftieness'.

Naughty ol' me, though .....

[Drummond]

I missed this request. Skimming this thread it’s clear that Jim already knows what you’ve asked.
As for keeping non-Americans from joining, that is def not going to happen. No one on staff, including me, would ever do that. Also, I feel compelled to mention that it’s not really cool to demand that an owner change his policies for you.

I wouldn’t ban you, either. That’s not how we roll. And you may have noticed or not, but staff gets along and tends to agree on a lot. You’d have to do a lot worse that that.

I’m sorry if I’ve disappointed you. We don’t need to hash this out. I just wanted to answer your requests of me.
Hope you decide to stay...



I know that you mean well, Abbey, and I appreciate you for it. Thank you.

I did not 'demand' anything of Jim. It would be insane to try. But I did consider that I had a very good case to make, and so, I made it.

STTAB's posting from earlier has given me a fresh perspective. Simply, this place IS far more of a bear-pit environment than I'd ever believed. People make accusations, or bait others, or outright insult them .. and there's literally zero feeling in anyone of personal accountability for what they do. Bear-pit conditions rule.

You live and learn.

I never joined here with any intention of joining a bear-pit. It never crossed my mind. I thought - try not to laugh ! - that I was dealing with people who, as Conservatives, would have a keen, strong sense of honour and decency.

So here I am, now, realising what the truth is.

If people want bear-pit scraps with me, I can dish it out with the best of them. But this is way removed from anything I intended to get involved with, at least, at first.

I did think I was among friends (of a sort). Now, I'm sure I'm not ... unfortunately. But, so be it. I've said and done nothing wrong, and for whatever time as I feel I want to, I SHALL fight my corner.

Tough if people don't like it. I concede when I'm wrong. But, I'm not wrong.

Wanting Americans to live, rather than die, is not something I'm ashamed of. Yet, because of it, I now have to see this as a hostile environment. Which is ridiculous.

Conservatives are meant to be better than this.

Best wishes, Abbey.

[Gunny]

Fair point. OK, I concede that.



I've seen that argument before. I'd agree up to a point ... I don't like 'big Government' either, but what I mean by that is that the authoritarianism coming from it shouldn't be top-heavy. Governments are fine, so long as people are recognised as worthwhile individuals, to be genuinely respected as such.

It's why I would never respect a Labour Government. They would use the machinery of Government just to build a bigger and more encompassing power base for themselves.

Good Government, surely, isn't to do with its size, but rather the laws and dogma (if any) it exercises. I'd always cite Boris Johnson's Government as a good one, even though he's done more to curb individual freedoms than any politician in living memory. He simply did what he had to do, for the greatest possible good. He adapted to the reality that is Covid-19.



Fair enough. The biggest single reason I have for being a Conservative is that Conservatism is the best antidote to Leftieism there is.

That Conservatism recognises and respects individualism, and works with human aspiration, is also important.



A product of centralisation here, then. Point taken.



Depends on what you believe. The theory most accepted here is that it was an accidental release, totally unforeseen, from one of China's 'wet markets', facilitated by somebody's disgusting liking for bat soup. We're aware of Trump's claim to have seen intelligence material showing it originated from a lab, but as Trump didn't publish that evidence, our lot still favour the 'wet market' theory.

An argument against the US would be that, knowing exactly what they were dealing with in Covid-19, the US would still facilitate conditions that saw to it that it freely spread. You don't have to be a genius to see that this could lead to a second pandemic wave.



Thank you !



So, suddenly, respect for free speech goes completely out the window ?

I'm not aware that I've attacked your Government .. I'm still a Trump admirer. But if you mean State Government, well ... my understanding was that a rogue State, Georgia, had a Governor who'd unilaterally decided to end the lockdown in his State. Trump had advised him it was too early. That Governor ignored him.

Should anybody threatening gratuitous levels of mass death upon innocent people, earn respect ? I struggle to see that any is earned.

But then, I don't want Americans to die.

I did not attack the US Constitution. All I did was tell the truth about its obvious limitations. I even qualified this by asking anybody to show me how the Constitution addressed and covered the question of how you meet the challenge of a pandemic. Of course, nobody did so ... BECAUSE I TOLD THE TRUTH ABOUT ITS LIMITATIONS.

I am open to the abuse coming my way, but by no stretch of the imagination have I earned it. All I did was tell the truth about it.

No. Here's the real truth, Gunny. The US Constitution is so revered that Americans treat it like a sacred religion. What I got was a reprisal because my level of worship did not equal that of Americans. Criticism = blasphemy. That's despite the fact that all I did was TELL THE TRUTH.



I have not attacked either your people or your nation. Wanting lives saved, is not an attack !!!

But you're wrong on one point. I do know that lockdowns save lives. The science says so. Every scrap of commonsense says so. Check out how badly Brazil's doing, under Bolsonaro. Note Sweden, which appears not to be doing too badly, until you understand that they have a low population, and are doing a lot worse than their neighbouring countries, who are applying lockdowns.

If lockdowns don't save lives, then spikes occurring after relaxations will never happen. Can you seriously tell me that this is true ?



England, 1665; the Great Plague. Moving from one infection hotspot to another was the equivalent of a death wish in action.

A firefight involves military hardware. Covid-19 isn't remotely similar.

No, Gunny. If I've 'earned' anyone's displeasure here, it's for not acknowledging that no outsider dares tell of your Constitution's limitations, no matter how true they are. I should've realised that Americans do treat that document as though it was a complete and entire religion.

My truth is met by lies about my supposed 'Leftieness'.

Naughty ol' me, though ......I am going to try again later on my response. I was doing too many things at once first go round. :)

[Drummond]

At no point did I state you, or anyone else for that matter, cannot speak freely. I expect when they do, they are aware before they hit "Enter" that they are responsible for the words they typed and subject to return commentary whether or not it is favorable (within the rules of course).

Agreed for the most part. However, nobody's responsible for receiving an attack they haven't earned.


A fight requires the balls to have it. I don't know how you see the coronavirus but it's just another fight to the death to me. It kills me or I kill it. All this other window dressing you want to put on it is fine. In the end, when it's just you and the virus, it's as I stated.

However laudably spirited this all is, you can't escape the fact that no one person can possibly kill this virus (except, the scientist providing a cure ?). However .. the virus can kill you.

Until that cure or vaccine comes along, any 'fight-back' has to come from a mass response. A society chooses to go into lockdown, hoping to starve the virus so that its opportunities to spread and flourish diminish. Or, it doesn't, in which case the virus is greatly enabled.


Okay, so "the lockdown" saves lives. For the lockdown period. Not when it's over. Isn't that what you're afraid of?

What sane person wouldn't be ?


What is "opening up too soon?" Is there some crystal ball giving a specific date?

Not precisely, no. But there are indicators as to the numbers being infected and dying. You choose your best hope for control, as these fit the need for an economy to begin operating once more.


Everything about this is arbitrary yet you want to apply your rules to everyone else. You've been given many perfectly good reasons why your way doesn't fit here.

Nonetheless, the virus in my country, and the virus in yours, is essentially just the same. It doesn't take on different characteristics because of where it's located. You choose - if you do - to feed or starve it, according to your choice of method.


Which, btw -- off topic but you put it out there -- why do you refer to yourself as an outsider? Is that how you feel about yourself? You may have a point though. I am the only Marine on the board.

I'm trying hard not to laugh !!

Events over these past days surely illustrate just how much of an outsider I am !!

I'm an outsider, Gunny, because I have the gall not to be an American.

I'm from a different society. That society has broadly similar values, but obviously, they're not identical. My society is run differently. My very psychology seems to differ. I for one would never dream of baiting Kath, perpetually calling her a Leftie, whereas she delights in doing that to me, AND, without a trace of conscience evident.

No. I think very differently to many if not most of you. My being a Conservative seems not to make a difference.

Non-Americans will be prey to these differences, which is why I think my 'America-only club' suggestion is the only decent path forward for DP. Foreigners, as I think my example has proved, are not adapted to conditions here.


You do I hope recognize the absurdity in that, right? How long have you been a member here? Can't say as I have ever seen you treated as such.

Review postings from the past few days, and then come back & tell me that my assessment is wrong. Yes, I've been posting here for literally years. But my understanding of what this environment has been all about has received radical adjustment just within this past day. A week ago, I'd have told you this was a friendly environment. Now I know it to be a hostile one.

In my opinion, this environment isn't suited for non-Americans.


Don't move and you die. Move and you have a chance to live. I'll go with the latter, thanks. It has served me well :)

Yes, indeed, maybe I should move. At high speed ! BUT ... I'm not usually one to avoid a fight, and so-called former 'friends' seemingly want to engage me in one. I'll meet the challenge .. as & when I choose to, of course.

[Gunny]

Agreed for the most part. However, nobody's responsible for receiving an attack they haven't earned.



However laudably spirited this all is, you can't escape the fact that no one person can possibly kill this virus (except, the scientist providing a cure ?). However .. the virus can kill you.

Until that cure or vaccine comes along, any 'fight-back' has to come from a mass response. A society chooses to go into lockdown, hoping to starve the virus so that its opportunities to spread and flourish diminish. Or, it doesn't, in which case the virus is greatly enabled.



What sane person wouldn't be ?



Not precisely, no. But there are indicators as to the numbers being infected and dying. You choose your best hope for control, as these fit the need for an economy to begin operating once more.



Nonetheless, the virus in my country, and the virus in yours, is essentially just the same. It doesn't take on different characteristics because of where it's located. You choose - if you do - to feed or starve it, according to your choice of method.



I'm trying hard not to laugh !!

Events over these past days surely illustrate just how much of an outsider I am !!

I'm an outsider, Gunny, because I have the gall not to be an American.

I'm from a different society. That society has broadly similar values, but obviously, they're not identical. My society is run differently. My very psychology seems to differ. I for one would never dream of baiting Kath, perpetually calling her a Leftie, whereas she delights in doing that to me, AND, without a trace of conscience evident.

No. I think very differently to many if not most of you. My being a Conservative seems not to make a difference.

Non-Americans will be prey to these differences, which is why I think my 'America-only club' suggestion is the only decent path forward for DP. Foreigners, as I think my example has proved, are not adapted to conditions here.



Review postings from the past few days, and then come back & tell me that my assessment is wrong. Yes, I've been posting here for literally years. But my understanding of what this environment has been all about has received radical adjustment just within this past day. A week ago, I'd have told you this was a friendly environment. Now I know it to be a hostile one.

In my opinion, this environment isn't suited for non-Americans.



Yes, indeed, maybe I should move. At high speed ! BUT ... I'm not usually one to avoid a fight, and so-called former 'friends' seemingly want to engage me in one. I'll meet the challenge .. as & when I choose to, of course.I do not and have not viewed you as an "outsider". Let's be real, here. This is one thread. Or several maybe. The topic has come to you questioning our Government and our leaders because they are not doing what you think they should. I have not, nor do I intend to, read back over this thread and see who started what at the personal level because I wasn't there at the time and it doesn't matter anyway.

I will repeat: You slammed us, our government and law. You can say and think you didn't all you want but that writing is there. I will also point out that the US Constitution is primarily based on English law.

Yet you are offended when you get slammed back? And that makes you an "outsider".

I don't get that. When I get the itch to come on here and slam the President it is not without the knowledge that his staunch supporters are going to give me Hell. I expect no less. I don't think my unpopular opinions make me an outsider.

[Drummond]

I do not and have not viewed you as an "outsider".

I do not think as you do. My beliefs SHOULD be very similar to yours, but my being from another society means they're actually not. I am a bloody foreigner, who dares to have his 'foreign' perspective, and worse, expresses it, too !

My foreign perspective hasn't won me rave reviews here, in case you hadn't noticed.

By what possible standard am I viewable as anything other than an outsider ? I'm an 'uppity Brit' !!


Let's be real, here. This is one thread. Or several maybe. The topic has come to you questioning our Government and our leaders because they are not doing what you think they should. I have not, nor do I intend to, read back over this thread and see who started what at the personal level because I wasn't there at the time and it doesn't matter anyway.

I will repeat: You slammed us, our government and law. You can say and think you didn't all you want but that writing is there. I will also point out that the US Constitution is primarily based on English law.

You can't have been following what I said very closely. Show me where I questioned Donald Trump's Government.

Georgia's Governor took it upon himself to end the lockdown in that State (and other State Governors followed his lead). My understanding is that Trump, RIGHTLY, advised the Governor that the timing wasn't right.

I think he was correct.

I have been critical of a decision, which, when it's fully enacted, will end up killing thousands of people, people who needn't have died. Forgive me for thinking that this matters.

I've also extrapolated further, and seen there's quite a chance for the newly-invigorated virus, being carried by so many more people, actually escaping the US to infect others ... us bloody foreigners !!! Who knows, it might be a mutated version by then.

But ... well. How dare a bloody foreigner find any and all of this objectionable !!! Let's call him a Leftie. That'll teach the upstart ....


Yet you are offended when you get slammed back? And that makes you an "outsider".

I don't get that. When I get the itch to come on here and slam the President it is not without the knowledge that his staunch supporters are going to give me Hell. I expect no less. I don't think my unpopular opinions make me an outsider.

But the differences in opinions and perspectives all come from the fact that I've never been a product of your society. The 'slamming back' I'm getting is because (a) I dare not to think in lockstep to Americans, and (b) it's because I think like a Brit, not an American.

You are an American, so by definition, you're a full Club member.

[Gunny]

I do not think as you do. My beliefs SHOULD be very similar to yours, but my being from another society means they're actually not. I am a bloody foreigner, who dares to have his 'foreign' perspective, and worse, expresses it, too !

My foreign perspective hasn't won me rave reviews here, in case you hadn't noticed.

By what possible standard am I viewable as anything other than an outsider ? I'm an 'uppity Brit' !!



You can't have been following what I said very closely. Show me where I questioned Donald Trump's Government.

Georgia's Governor took it upon himself to end the lockdown in that State (and other State Governors followed his lead). My understanding is that Trump, RIGHTLY, advised the Governor that the timing wasn't right.

I think he was correct.

I have been critical of a decision, which, when it's fully enacted, will end up killing thousands of people, people who needn't have died. Forgive me for thinking that this matters.

I've also extrapolated further, and seen there's quite a chance for the newly-invigorated virus, being carried by so many more people, actually escaping the US to infect others ... us bloody foreigners !!! Who knows, it might be a mutated version by then.

But ... well. How dare a bloody foreigner find any and all of this objectionable !!! Let's call him a Leftie. That'll teach the upstart ....



But the differences in opinions and perspectives all come from the fact that I've never been a product of your society. The 'slamming back' I'm getting is because (a) I dare not to think in lockstep to Americans, and (b) it's because I think like a Brit, not an American.

You are an American, so by definition, you're a full Club member.Your argument about the virus is conjecture. you are assuming what will happen "if". The fact is, nobody knows what will happen. I'm not for this or against this. To clarify, when you say "If you do this. this will result and the USA will be as responsible as China", or words to that effect, "US" is us. Our people, or government, our country. Us. I'm fairly objective and that looks like an attack on the all-inclusive "us" to me.

You could change your name to Bob from Toledo, Ohio and I'm betting you'd get the same response.

You got called a leftie. Yeah, that's insulting. And? You aren't exactly the nicest guy in the world when you get your temper up.

It's not any different than any of the rest of us simply because it's you. I'll have to address the rest of your post when I get the chance.

[Drummond]

Your argument about the virus is conjecture. you are assuming what will happen "if". The fact is, nobody knows what will happen. I'm not for this or against this. To clarify, when you say "If you do this. this will result and the USA will be as responsible as China", or words to that effect, "US" is us. Our people, or government, our country. Us. I'm fairly objective and that looks like an attack on the all-inclusive "us" to me.

Not an attack. Sheer realism at work. An escape of a mutated virus from the US will have been something you could avoid, by keeping a lockdown in place, or sealing your borders. Or is your country uniquely able to avoid culpability for any of its actions ?

We're all 'just not meant to mind', if it spreads to other countries from yours, eh ?


You could change your name to Bob from Toledo, Ohio and I'm betting you'd get the same response.

Oh, I doubt it.


You got called a leftie. Yeah, that's insulting. And? You aren't exactly the nicest guy in the world when you get your temper up.

Why, how nice am I required to be, in order to not get insulted by the 'Leftie' jibe ?

I shouldn't have to earn the favour of not being insulted ! Fact is, if I'm provoked, then I am.


It's not any different than any of the rest of us simply because it's you. I'll have to address the rest of your post when I get the chance.

This post would seem to suggest otherwise:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?69836-UK-plans-14-day-quarantine-for-incoming-travelers&p=959467#post959467

The simple truth of the matter is that this is 'bear-pit' posting. Illustrations of that basic truth.

[STTAB]

I do not think as you do. My beliefs SHOULD be very similar to yours, but my being from another society means they're actually not. I am a bloody foreigner, who dares to have his 'foreign' perspective, and worse, expresses it, too !

My foreign perspective hasn't won me rave reviews here, in case you hadn't noticed.

By what possible standard am I viewable as anything other than an outsider ? I'm an 'uppity Brit' !!



You can't have been following what I said very closely. Show me where I questioned Donald Trump's Government.

Georgia's Governor took it upon himself to end the lockdown in that State (and other State Governors followed his lead). My understanding is that Trump, RIGHTLY, advised the Governor that the timing wasn't right.

I think he was correct.

I have been critical of a decision, which, when it's fully enacted, will end up killing thousands of people, people who needn't have died. Forgive me for thinking that this matters.

I've also extrapolated further, and seen there's quite a chance for the newly-invigorated virus, being carried by so many more people, actually escaping the US to infect others ... us bloody foreigners !!! Who knows, it might be a mutated version by then.

But ... well. How dare a bloody foreigner find any and all of this objectionable !!! Let's call him a Leftie. That'll teach the upstart ....



But the differences in opinions and perspectives all come from the fact that I've never been a product of your society. The 'slamming back' I'm getting is because (a) I dare not to think in lockstep to Americans, and (b) it's because I think like a Brit, not an American.

You are an American, so by definition, you're a full Club member.



For God sakes, I'll just be blunt. Shut the fuck up and move on , or leave. We all vastly prefer you stay but damn man let this go, it can't just drag on for days and weeks and months and years. At some point just say "Jim was an asshole, I was an asshole, time to move on" or actually move on.

To be clear, when I say shut the fuck up, I mean about this particular beef of yours, not of your opinions which by the way I don't think ANYONE who knows me would argue that I am against having a variety of opinions on any message board.

You're right though , this is an American board, when you get mad, get mad like an American shout , scream, curse, possibly a few threats, and then it's over.

[Black Diamond]

For God sakes, I'll just be blunt. Shut the fuck up and move on , or leave. We all vastly prefer you stay but damn man let this go, it can't just drag on for days and weeks and months and years. At some point just say "Jim was an asshole, I was an asshole, time to move on" or actually move on.

To be clear, when I say shut the fuck up, I mean about this particular beef of yours, not of your opinions which by the way I don't think ANYONE who knows me would argue that I am against having a variety of opinions on any message board.

You're right though , this is an American board, when you get mad, get mad like an American shout , scream, curse, possibly a few threats, and then it's over.

I'll be interested to see if he can let it go and move on.

[Kathianne]

For as fussy and stubborn as he is, I agree. He's one of the posters I most like conversing with when he's not being smug and demanding.

[Black Diamond]

For as fussy and stubborn as he is, I agree. He's one of the posters I most like conversing with when he's not being smug and demanding.

Agreed. He gets stuck on something and can't get past it. But usually the conversations are good.

[Gunny]

I'm going to get past it Drummond like this: I don't have time to run in circles. That is not your problem; rather, mine. Lockdown isn't a "vacation and boredom" when it includes a daughter, 2 granddaughters and a grandson. So I literally do not have much time. I still got dishes to do tonight.

The "outsider" thing is on you. I've never seen you treated as outsider but have in fact seen you treated as a comrade by several over the past few years. Getting on the wrong side of an argument doesn't make that go away.

Your scenario has too many "if's'" for my taste. This virus started in China. Typed that before. And you may be going for the "wet bat" on the other side of the Pond, but that one seems to be getting BS status here. Anything after that basic fact in regard to this virus is on China. The US isn't going to accept any bullshit about that, and rightly so. Obama's not President anymore.

I've already covered everything there is on this topic from the point I joined the conversation in my responses to you. My stance remains the same. Each individual from the lowest to highest level has to and is going to do what the individual thinks is best. The Mayor has us locked down here. That's about as low on the totem pole as it gets and that is as it should be. We don't need someone in DC, a completely different world from here, making decisions for us.

THAT is American conservative.

[revelarts]

Redcoats haven't existed for centuries. Since that's true, your jibe has zero impact. 'Sorry'.

But explain it to me. Why is a death wish preferable to recognizing the wisdom an authority may be showing you ?

What is so terrible about an authority that works for your welfare ?

One that cares about individual human life, and works to preserve it ?

What's so terrible about that ?

Nothing at all... if the Authority is God. Then it's the perfect response.

God is the ONLY person that always has our best interest at heart and has perfect knowledge and uncorrupted commands.
The problem is everyone else falls FAR short of His noble perfection.
THEREFORE every man, woman and family has the responsibility to look out for their own best interest under God. And check for themselves to the best of their ability the actions and advise ... or orders.... of everyone who claims "authority".
From teachers to doctors, scientist, military, politicians and plumbers.
Blind trust in those who have, by various means, found themselves in seats of "authority" is for children.
Even well meaning "authorities" can and have made mistakes.
The "authorities" are not all-knowing and in the end do not even have the responsibility or ability to feed or house us all.

If "the Authority" is human, ...
OK, before i go there. i think there's something that you never really addressed, that is, what is the root of in your POV Drummond?
it's really the starting point of the whole question.

Where does one adult human being get the "authority" to tell another adult human beings what to do?

In the U.K. it was long supposed to be by " the Divine right of Kings". I'm not sure how the kings of England convinced everyone of that one. But it's been a practice used around the world by many tribes and nations to simply CLAIM authority came from God or gods. THEREFORE everyone should bow down and obey... for the good of the community of course. In the U.K. folks like Cromwell and the Gentry who wrote the Magna Carta questioned that notion. They took back Responsibility for themselves along with others in the community. The idea that ONE man's or woman's opinion was generally in the best interest of the nation was seen for what it was. Ridiculous, and irresponsible.
The idea that each man, woman family was and is "a king" rose in the minds of most in the west. Partly becasue this is what the scripture teaches. Each believing man and woman are, in fact, kings and priest for/of their family. And each has responsible to/for themselves and the the greater community as "brothers and sisters". Rather than BOSSES, LORDS or Slaves.

Different cultures are raised with various bents on these concepts.
The U.K. was saturated in concepts of Kings and Lords and surf and "commoners". Very nearly a cast system. (the R.C.Church added another layer to it as well) So much so that many of the 'lower classes' accepted their roles and the "benevolence" and authority of the upper classes. But there's always been a those who understood the more biblical concept i mentioned, the brotherhood of all men, despite class or rank or birth or wealth or race, and tried to express it in their religious practice and life. However in much of Europe they were beat down by the "authorities" so many FLED to the U.S.. (and elsewhere. Some of the Scandinavian countries applied the concept as well.) Where the ideas became the bedrock for our understanding of the authority of gov't and law.

Your attitude toward Authority is very OLD world "conservative". The idea that the Kings, Queens, Lords and Ladies have it all in hand and will get us all through. Just be a good lad and stick by the stuff... we'll be back working the fields by summer lass.

But frankly everyone WANTS to lean on a Strongman or King or great leader, (could that be a misplaced yearning for God?) we all know we don't have everything it takes to make all the best decisions. And honestly many of us would just rather have SOMEONE ELSE be responsible. And be cared for like children or a rich wife.
But the thing is, we in American like to think ... even if we don't always do it... that each of us needs to put on the big boy/big girl pants and take care of things. With the help and advise of our fellow citizens at our side... not LORDING it over us. We assume and assert our right as personal sovereigns to choose our course.

Ok, Lastly let me say this, there is no perfect system. Each system may ...and in fact has.... worked fairly well from time to time.
But IMO the system we CLAIM to have here in the U.S. affords the best options for personal freedoms as well as chances at experimentation at solving problems of ALL kinds.

I'm glad you're happy with your Prime Minister. and I truly hope it all works out for the best for you all... and us as well.

[STTAB]

Redcoats haven't existed for centuries. Since that's true, your jibe has zero impact. 'Sorry'.

But explain it to me. Why is a death wish preferable to recognising the wisdom an authority may be showing you ? What is so terrible about an authority that works for your welfare ?

One that cares about individual human life, and works to preserve it ?

What's so terrible about that ?


That would be wonderful, but there may be 10 people total on both sides in Washington DC who put American lives at the top of their priority list. Quite frankly I believe the number is 0 for Democrats.

I rather believe that England probably faces a similar quandary.

[Drummond]

I'll not type more here than I feel I need to, to make my message plain (mercifully, no doubt).

For starters ... I've only got 'stuck' on the subject-matter because of what that subject-matter IS. And, what is it, if not a life-and-death situation, affecting many thousands of people, who will in all probability die a terrible death, something that they need not have suffered at all.

Who'll die ? Certainly, Americans. But if I'm right, many across the world will too, people who never chose their fate, and would've been denied their freedom to escape it.

People here haven't listened to me. I've wasted my time.

And, that's fair enough, I suppose. Don't listen, if you don't choose to.

But it doesn't end there. I've had abuse heaped on me into the bargain. The charge that I'm 'a Leftie' has been resurrected, one having NO basis in reality, and more, is massively insulting to me, as is very well known. And for what ? Telling the truth, as I saw it ??

That disgusting insult was known to be a lie. But I still received it. Repeatedly.

I'm a different brand of Conservative to all of you. To me, decency, integrity, honour, all matter to me. I NEVER knowingly slander or libel. Here, Conservatives do it as a game, not caring about what they do.

Little wonder, therefore, that this, in my view, should be an America-only club.

I know this post will be a waste of time ... nothing will be learned from it.You won't listen ... no chance of that at all.

So I've only one thing more to say. Namely; GOODBYE.

[Now, start with the abuse again, folks ... you know you want to ...]

[STTAB]

I'll not type more here than I feel I need to, to make my message plain (mercifully, no doubt).

For starters ... I've only got 'stuck' on the subject-matter because of what that subject-matter IS. And, what is it, if not a life-and-death situation, affecting many thousands of people, who will in all probability die a terrible death, something that they need not have suffered at all.

Who'll die ? Certainly, Americans. But if I'm right, many across the world will too, people who never chose their fate, and would've been denied their freedom to escape it.

People here haven't listened to me. I've wasted my time.

And, that's fair enough, I suppose. Don't listen, if you don't choose to.

But it doesn't end there. I've had abuse heaped on me into the bargain. The charge that I'm 'a Leftie' has been resurrected, one having NO basis in reality, and more, is massively insulting to me, as is very well known. And for what ? Telling the truth, as I saw it ??

That disgusting insult was known to be a lie. But I still received it. Repeatedly.

I'm a different brand of Conservative to all of you. To me, decency, integrity, honour, all matter to me. I NEVER knowingly slander or libel. Here, Conservatives do it as a game, not caring about what they do.

Little wonder, therefore, that this, in my view, should be an America-only club.

I know this post will be a waste of time ... nothing will be learned from it.You won't listen ... no chance of that at all.

So I've only one thing more to say. Namely; GOODBYE.

[Now, start with the abuse again, folks ... you know you want to ...]


I'll go first

You're acting like a pussy.

So someone called you a name, big deal man. You obviously want an apology and someone to beg you to stay , Not going to happen, and wanting it to happen is EXACTLY the sort of behavior we see from the left here "you hurt my feelings, apologize NOW or else"

Furthermore, if you're going to leave, just leave, or even if you're just going to take a break just take a break no need to announce, other than to be a drama queen.

I'll say again, I hope you choose to stay , IMO you generally bring value to threads, but my God man put your big boy knickers on here.


I just reread this and a thought popped into my head, can you imagine me manning a suicide hotline? LOL "Look you pussy either kill yourself, or get off the phone........."

[Drummond]

I'll go first

You're acting like a pussy.

Abuse: check.


So someone called you a name, big deal man. You obviously want an apology and someone to beg you to stay , Not going to happen, and wanting it to happen is EXACTLY the sort of behavior we see from the left here "you hurt my feelings, apologize NOW or else"

I'd like two things. To be listened to. And not to be insulted instead.

Terrible of me to ask such things, isn't it ?


Furthermore, if you're going to leave, just leave, or even if you're just going to take a break just take a break no need to announce, other than to be a drama queen.

Translation: I have nothing to say that you want to listen to. You people think you know it all, you're above learning anything from anyone, least of all from a bloody foreigner.


I'll say again, I hope you choose to stay , IMO you generally bring value to threads, but my God man put your big boy knickers on here.

I don't believe you. My previous post made it clear how I felt about getting abuse. So how come I'm getting even more ?


I just reread this and a thought popped into my head, can you imagine me manning a suicide hotline? LOL "Look you pussy either kill yourself, or get off the phone........."

It wouldn't surprise me if American suicide hotlines dish that out every day. You seem to need that behaviour. I do not, and never did.

Cue totally wasted plea, begging to be ignored: MAKE THIS AN AMERICA-ONLY CLUB.

[OK: Who's next for the gratuitous abuse-hurling, as the 'good Conservatives' that you are ? Form an orderly queue ...]

[STTAB]

Abuse: check.



I'd like two things. To be listened to. And not to be insulted instead.

Terrible of me to ask such things, isn't it ?



Translation: I have nothing to say that you want to listen to. You people think you know it all, you're above learning anything from anyone, least of all from a bloody foreigner.



I don't believe you. My previous post made it clear how I felt about getting abuse. So how come I'm getting even more ?



It wouldn't surprise me if American suicide hotlines dish that out every day. You seem to need that behaviour. I do not, and never did.

Cue totally wasted plea, begging to be ignored: MAKE THIS AN AMERICA-ONLY CLUB.

[OK: Who's next for the gratuitous abuse-hurling, as the 'good Conservatives' that you are ? Form an orderly queue ...]


Meh, I tried.......

[Drummond]

Meh, I tried.......

Stop jumping the queue.

There have to be others here who'd like to chuck yet more abuse my way. How about another round of 'You're a Leftie' (despite my years of posting history, proving the very opposite ...).

Shall I be blunt, as you are, STTAB ?

Let me be blunt about why this needs to be an America-only club.

It's really very simple.

Hallmarks of a good and true Conservative, to us 'bloody foreigners', are things such as 'decency, integrity, truthfulness, respect for the individual, personal honour, civilised behaviour'.

We identify the Left, in large measure, because the Left are devoid of much if not all of that.

A bloody foreigner of a Conservative will think he's joining a forum where these are all standard.

That bloody foreigner, sooner or later, will realise he's made a mistake, and walk away, feeling embittered.

Cue: me, intent on doing exactly that, and knowing that nothing he says or does will make the smallest difference.

You people are above learning anything at all from anyone who's a bloody foreigner. Be honest and admit it (in between abusive jibes, of course).

[STTAB]

Stop jumping the queue.

There have to be others here who'd like to chuck yet more abuse my way. How about another round of 'You're a Leftie' (despite my years of posting history, proving the very opposite ...).

Shall I be blunt, as you are, STTAB ?

Let me be blunt about why this needs to be an America-only club.

It's really very simple.

Hallmarks of a good and true Conservative, to us 'bloody foreigners', are things such as 'decency, integrity, truthfulness, respect for the individual, personal honour, civilised behaviour'.

We identify the Left, in large measure, because the Left are devoid of much if not all of that.

A bloody foreigner of a Conservative will think he's joining a forum where these are all standard.

That bloody foreigner, sooner or later, will realise he's made a mistake, and walk away, feeling embittered.

Cue: me, intent on doing exactly that, and knowing that nothing he says or does will make the smallest difference.

You people are above learning anything at all from anyone who's a bloody foreigner. Be honest and admit it (in between abusive jibes, of course).


You just insulted every conservative here (not to mention liberals) all the while screeching about being insulted. LOL

In the words of Gretchen "How dare you"

Seriously man, get over yourself. No one is going to beg you to stay, if you want to leave just leave don't keep talking about it, just do it.

Oh BTW the stupid deceitful name calling by conservatives has been going on on this board for years, you had to have seen it. The ONLY difference now is you were the target. You NEVER complained once back then, you never said anything when just two days ago Tyr called me a worthless lying scumbag, for example. I bring him up specifically because YOU in this thread opined that he specifically is a fine example of a conservative, but oooh he's exhibited the EXACT behavior which you are now telling us you associate with liberals. Yet you don't have a single word to spare to complain. Is it that you agree with Tyr that I am a worthless lying scumbag? Or is it that you agree with Tyr politically and so you simply willfully ignore his bad behavior?

Don't answer , we already know.

See to ME, a person of integrity calls out behavior they find objectionable even when it's done by people they agree with , especially when it's people they agree with as well as those they disagree with.

You'll notice I never say anything about name calling, because I do it too. I don't find it objectionable, and I'm not going to pretend to find it objectionable just because it was done by someone I don't like. That's why I didn't raise hell when the former mod made comments about gutting my wife and such. I've made plenty of objectionable posts on here, far be it from me to act as though I'm suddenly offended by that type of behavior.

So, unless and until I suddenly see you, for example, telling Tyr "come on man, don't be calling this guy a worthless lying scum for no real reason" I don't take your complaints against Jim, or anyone else to be honest, all that seriously.

[jimnyc]

If someone chooses to leave, that sucks, but so be it. All entitled to continue to post their own POV's. The freedom to choose belongs to every individual.

If someone has already chosen to leave, then no need for further animosity to be going back and forth. No need for others to be accused of piling on to anything, and no need for anyone to get anything negative in return for choosing to share their own POV.

Seems to me like all has been said except for harsh feeling at this point. No need to continue this.

/the end.

[Gunny]

Stop jumping the queue.

There have to be others here who'd like to chuck yet more abuse my way. How about another round of 'You're a Leftie' (despite my years of posting history, proving the very opposite ...).

Shall I be blunt, as you are, STTAB ?

Let me be blunt about why this needs to be an America-only club.

It's really very simple.

Hallmarks of a good and true Conservative, to us 'bloody foreigners', are things such as 'decency, integrity, truthfulness, respect for the individual, personal honour, civilised behaviour'.

We identify the Left, in large measure, because the Left are devoid of much if not all of that.

A bloody foreigner of a Conservative will think he's joining a forum where these are all standard.

That bloody foreigner, sooner or later, will realise he's made a mistake, and walk away, feeling embittered.

Cue: me, intent on doing exactly that, and knowing that nothing he says or does will make the smallest difference.

You people are above learning anything at all from anyone who's a bloody foreigner. Be honest and admit it (in between abusive jibes, of course).
Pot = kettle.