Germany's President is a wimp - USA talks Bombing of Iran [Archive] - Debate Policy

Ruby

09-12-2007, 12:03 PM

Uh - www.rif.org - check that link, aight?

Germany seems AGAINST non-violent sanctions, which has seemingly 'pushed' planners into figuring out the alternative. Bombs and stuff.

Lets not pretend the sanctions are anything but a bully tactic by the US that they use later to invade. Thats the same schtick they did in Iraq...why should anyone be fooled by that AGAIN and help the US do it?

Do you realize IF the US bombed-away Iran's nuclear program, the result would be 'saving human life' or 'removing the risk of nuclear war' from that region?
Bombing them IS Humanitarian.

No I dont. We havent even proved they HAVE a nuclear weapons program and they are entitled and within their rights to have a civilian one. So far the IAEA confirms thats all they have.

You do realize that bombing them is only going to take life from many people needlessly right? Killing people over a non-existant weapons program and non-existant weapons is the height of stupid, inhumane and barabaric.

Ruby

09-12-2007, 12:05 PM

Hey Rudy! I found a camp for ya:

http://www.campkumbayah.com/images/collage.jpg

The less than intelligent response from a person who can only see war as a way to deal with issues....not my fault you are so limited in your thinking.

-Cp

09-12-2007, 12:06 PM

The less than intelligent response from a person who can only see war as a way to deal with issues....not my fault you are so limited in your thinking.

Care to quote me where I said I think "was is the only way to deal with issues"?

darin

09-12-2007, 12:09 PM

Lets not pretend the sanctions are anything but a bully tactic by the US that they use later to invade. Thats the same schtick they did in Iraq...why should anyone be fooled by that AGAIN and help the US do it?

That stupid - you're absolutely refusing to address your outlandish claim by assuming something. dumb.

No I dont. We havent even proved they HAVE a nuclear weapons program and they are entitled and within their rights to have a civilian one. So far the IAEA confirms thats all they have.

You do realize that bombing them is only going to take life from many people needlessly right? Killing people over a non-existant weapons program and non-existant weapons is the height of stupid, inhumane and barabaric.

You have no idea.

Ruby

09-12-2007, 12:25 PM

That stupid - you're absolutely refusing to address your outlandish claim by assuming something. dumb.

Not outlandish at all, we just did that routine with Iraq. You know the saying...fool me once, shame on you..fool me twice, shame on me (Bush dosent know that saying but I bet you do).

Why sanction them over a weapons program that they dont even HAVE?

You have no idea.

Well where is the EVIDENCE they do? The IAEA says they dont, they have a civilian program going.

Ruby

09-12-2007, 12:29 PM

Care to quote me where I said I think "was is the only way to deal with issues"?

Oh puhleeze, its pretty easy to see when you start that kumbaya crap...its a common rhetoric from the warmongers and not very original.

Why start conflicts over UNSUBSTANTIATED claims, we already started a WAR over stuff like that....and yet we still dont learn???? That would just be evidence that we are too stupid to operate a basic dvd player and therefore far too stupid to be in charge of all the WMD we DO have.

darin

09-12-2007, 12:41 PM

Not outlandish at all, we just did that routine with Iraq. You know the saying...fool me once, shame on you..fool me twice, shame on me (Bush dosent know that saying but I bet you do).

Why sanction them over a weapons program that they dont even HAVE?

You don't read much, do you? Do you REALLY think the US would be concerned if our intel didn't show us the opposite?

Well where is the EVIDENCE they do? The IAEA says they dont, they have a civilian program going.

What would constitute 'evidence' in your opinion?

Gaffer

09-12-2007, 01:22 PM

Oh puhleeze, its pretty easy to see when you start that kumbaya crap...its a common rhetoric from the warmongers and not very original.

Why start conflicts over UNSUBSTANTIATED claims, we already started a WAR over stuff like that....and yet we still dont learn???? That would just be evidence that we are too stupid to operate a basic dvd player and therefore far too stupid to be in charge of all the WMD we DO have.

You like to keep your head buried deep I see. You actually believe what the un says? The un can't provide proof of anything because the iranians won't let them in to inspect anything.

iran is;

supporting hezbollah, hamas, the taliban, al queda, the mahadi army and many other terror organizations.

infiltrating the entire region with quds force agents.

trying to get control of Lebanon through its hezbollah agents.

making incursions into iraq.

threatening to wipe out Israel.

Imprisoning and executing thousands of its own citizens.

Intent on establishing an iranian caliphate in the middle east.

Intent on starting a cataclysmic war in order to bring back the 12th imam to establish paradise on earth.

Iran is not a peaceful little society going about their business. They are an evil insidious entity out to destroy everything we cherish. Keep your head buried deep, your ass will still burn.

Ruby

09-12-2007, 01:34 PM

You don't read much, do you? Do you REALLY think the US would be concerned if our intel didn't show us the opposite?

Um yes I do. We have not been happy since the shah was overthrown and we have always wanted to get a puppet back into power there to do our bidding and allow us access to controlling their resources. Its the same reason we backed saddam in his invasion of Iran.

What would constitute 'evidence' in your opinion?

How bout proof of the weapons program?! Unsubstantiated accusations arent gonna cut it. Evidence that stands up to scrutinization..not like the forged niger documents.

Ruby

09-12-2007, 01:38 PM

You like to keep your head buried deep I see. You actually believe what the un says? The un can't provide proof of anything because the iranians won't let them in to inspect anything.

iran is;

supporting hezbollah, hamas, the taliban, al queda, the mahadi army and many other terror organizations.

infiltrating the entire region with quds force agents.

trying to get control of Lebanon through its hezbollah agents.

making incursions into iraq.

threatening to wipe out Israel.

Imprisoning and executing thousands of its own citizens.

Intent on establishing an iranian caliphate in the middle east.

Intent on starting a cataclysmic war in order to bring back the 12th imam to establish paradise on earth.

Iran is not a peaceful little society going about their business. They are an evil insidious entity out to destroy everything we cherish. Keep your head buried deep, your ass will still burn.

Both hezbollah and hamas are valid groups that defend the palestinian people, one is even an elected political party.

I see no proof of all these accusations btw....just hurling shit at the wall dosent suffice as evidence.

They said Israel did not have a right to exist there and has asked on many occasions why the palestinian people must pay for the crimes of nazi germany. Its a valid question. They did NOT say they were going to wipe them out.

Iran hasnt attacked anyone...when was the last time Iran started a war and invaded another nation?

No proof of incursion into Iraq BUT EVEN IF THEY DID, they have a right to become involved. Iraq was invaded by a foreign nation, that opens up the right of ANY OTHER foreign nation coming to Iraqs aid to repel the foreign invader. Just like we did to Iraq when they invaded Kuwait. Just like we would if someone attacked canada.

-Cp

09-12-2007, 02:20 PM

gabosaurus

09-12-2007, 02:29 PM

Gaffer

09-12-2007, 03:04 PM

Both hezbollah and hamas are valid groups that defend the palestinian people, one is even an elected political party.

Both are terror organizations supported by iran. One is concentrating on Israel while the other attempts to take over Lebanon and threaten Israel from the north.

I see no proof of all these accusations btw....just hurling shit at the wall dosent suffice as evidence.

All my accusations have been documented frequently throughout the media and I am not going to go dig up a bunch of sites for you to ignore.

They said Israel did not have a right to exist there and has asked on many occasions why the palestinian people must pay for the crimes of nazi germany. Its a valid question. They did NOT say they were going to wipe them out.

They said very clearly that Israel will be wiped from the map. They make no bones about that. They also deny the holocaust while at the same time claiming the the pals are paying for the crimes of the nazi's.

Iran hasnt attacked anyone...when was the last time Iran started a war and invaded another nation?

iran attacked the US in 1979. It was referred to as the embassy take over. iran attacked US ships in the gulf in 1984. iranian qod force agents have been aiding terrorists in iraq with IED's weapons, missiles and troops. iranian forces have made incursions into iraq for quite sometime. The most prominent when they tried to capture American soldiers near the border. Just prior to their attacking and capturing those British sailors. The hizbollah attack and mini-war with Israel was orchestrated by iran.

No proof of incursion into Iraq BUT EVEN IF THEY DID, they have a right to become involved. Iraq was invaded by a foreign nation, that opens up the right of ANY OTHER foreign nation coming to Iraqs aid to repel the foreign invader. Just like we did to Iraq when they invaded Kuwait. Just like we would if someone attacked canada.

Your a good dhimmi ruby. Keep up the work on behalf of iran. Do they pay well?

iran has NO RIGHT to go into iraq. That's why they do it covertly. They want iraq for the oil and to make it a part of their caliphate. It's a central part of their conquest plans of the entire middle east.

gabosaurus

09-12-2007, 05:43 PM

iran has NO RIGHT to go into iraq. That's why they do it covertly. They want iraq for the oil and to make it a part of their caliphate. It's a central part of their conquest plans of the entire middle east.

The exact same could be said for the Bushies. But they did it anyway.

darin

09-12-2007, 05:49 PM

The exact same could be said for the Bushies. But they did it anyway.

Thank you for gracing us with your one-line wit, Gabby.

gabosaurus

09-12-2007, 05:54 PM

At least I have wit and a sense of humor. Not to mention the intelligence to figure out what is going on. Without turning on Fox.

Dilloduck

09-12-2007, 06:24 PM

Merkel is actually a very intelligent woman. Much more well versed than Bush. She has realized that her country can no longer support an illegal war of aggression.

All the claims you make about Iran can easily be said about Saudi Arabia. Should we bomb them as well?

Since you sit around and chat with them both regularly, I guess we're gonna have to take your word for it. :laugh2:

Ruby

09-15-2007, 07:42 AM

Your a good dhimmi ruby. Keep up the work on behalf of iran. Do they pay well?

iran has NO RIGHT to go into iraq. That's why they do it covertly. They want iraq for the oil and to make it a part of their caliphate. It's a central part of their conquest plans of the entire middle east.

First you need to prove they do it at all, covertly or otherwise.

Secondly its within any nations rights (especially a neighbor) to help another nation fight off a foreign invasion. Iraq was invaded and is occupied by a foreign nation (the US) and ANY OTHER NATION on the planet that wants to help Iraq fight that off would be within their moral rights to do so (and legal). Its why the US was right to stop Saddams invasion of Kuwait.

Its not my fault you lack moral clarity or any of the premises for which international laws are formed.

Ruby

09-15-2007, 07:44 AM

The exact same could be said for the Bushies. But they did it anyway.

Its actually the US invasion that would give Iran (or any other nation for that matter) the right to go in now and help Iraq fight off the foreign invasion and occupation.

JohnDoe

09-15-2007, 07:53 AM

Hey Rudy! I found a camp for ya:

http://www.campkumbayah.com/images/collage.jpg

And what is unchristianlike, with camp kumbayah? Sounds like a place Christ would hang out at!!!! ;)

It's better than Camp Killkillkill!

jd

jafar00

09-15-2007, 11:51 AM

Both hezbollah and hamas are valid groups that defend the palestinian people, one is even an elected political party.

Both are terror organizations supported by iran. One is concentrating on Israel while the other attempts to take over Lebanon and threaten Israel from the north.

Hizbullah only exists because of Israeli aggression against Lebanon. They are a legitimate, organised militia who's only task is to keep Israel off Lebanese soil, and so far they've done a good job.

They said Israel did not have a right to exist there and has asked on many occasions why the palestinian people must pay for the crimes of nazi germany. Its a valid question. They did NOT say they were going to wipe them out.

They said very clearly that Israel will be wiped from the map. They make no bones about that. They also deny the holocaust while at the same time claiming the the pals are paying for the crimes of the nazi's.

Ahmedinejad never said Israel will be wiped from the map. It's well know that particular phrase was a deliberate mis-translation of what he said. What are you trying to achieve by clinging on to a thoroughly debunked piece of failed propaganda?

Iran hasnt attacked anyone...when was the last time Iran started a war and invaded another nation?

iran attacked the US in 1979. It was referred to as the embassy take over. iran attacked US ships in the gulf in 1984. iranian qod force agents have been aiding terrorists in iraq with IED's weapons, missiles and troops. iranian forces have made incursions into iraq for quite sometime. The most prominent when they tried to capture American soldiers near the border. Just prior to their attacking and capturing those British sailors. The hizbollah attack and mini-war with Israel was orchestrated by iran.

Answer the question. When was the last time Iran started a war and invaded another nation?

Monkeybone

09-15-2007, 12:34 PM

if he didn't say that it would be wiped off the map then what did he say? and where does it tell us that it was an oopsie in translation?

Ruby

09-16-2007, 02:25 AM

if he didn't say that it would be wiped off the map then what did he say? and where does it tell us that it was an oopsie in translation?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NOR20070120&articleId=4527

Here is exactly what he said.

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Then is his speech he went on...

Ahmadinejad acknowledges that the removal of America's powerful grip on the region via the Zionists may seem unimaginable to some, but reminds the audience that, as Khomeini predicted, other seemingly invincible empires have disappeared and now only exist in history books. He then proceeds to list three such regimes that have collapsed, crumbled or vanished, all within the last 30 years:

(1) The Shah of Iran- the U.S. installed monarch

(2) The Soviet Union

(3) Iran's former arch-enemy, Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein

These all make comparisons to regime change and certainly not a genocide attempt as its been propagandized as. He is not calling for extermination of jews, but of a regime change in the lands of Jerusalem.

stephanie

09-16-2007, 02:34 AM

Ruby

09-16-2007, 02:47 AM

:laugh2::cuckoo:

Yeah sure....

And their not calling for a regime change here in the United States....

It's just a saying.........they don't mean it........sheeeesh.....

Come on now........they is just KIDDING........:cheers2:

Are you having trouble with reading? They are calling for a regime change in the lands of Jerusalem *Israel* and gave examples of previous regime changes that have occured to offer hope to those who suffer under the current one.

I am sure they would love to see a regime change in the US but thats not at all what they are talking about.

Gunny

09-16-2007, 08:17 AM

Quite true. Real strength is standing up to the war mongers and telling them NO. It takes true strength and character to seek more humane and peaceful solutions. It takes nothing more than a violent knuckle dragger without any respect for human life to bomb and kill people.

It takes REAL strength to address a threat BEFORE it blows you off the face of the Earth, even when screeching harpies are trying to sell everyone a load of shit that the guy with his finger on a nuke really only wants it for electricity.

Try learning to think ... it actually works.

Gaffer

09-16-2007, 09:34 PM

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NOR20070120&articleId=4527

Here is exactly what he said.

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Then is his speech he went on...

These all make comparisons to regime change and certainly not a genocide attempt as its been propagandized as. He is not calling for extermination of jews, but of a regime change in the lands of Jerusalem.

All three of those regime changes were due to the actions of the US. The next big change is going to be in iran...again.

Ruby

09-17-2007, 12:19 AM

It takes REAL strength to address a threat BEFORE it blows you off the face of the Earth, even when screeching harpies are trying to sell everyone a load of shit that the guy with his finger on a nuke really only wants it for electricity.

Try learning to think ... it actually works.

Yet no one is threatening to blow the US or Israel off the face of the earth...its takes real paranoia to see threats that dont exist.

Ruby

09-17-2007, 12:24 AM

All three of those regime changes were due to the actions of the US. The next big change is going to be in iran...again.

You really arent the most informed are ya?

The USSR fell under its own weight and spent too much money trying to oppress people who refused.

The Shah was not overthrown by the US, the US wanted to KEEP the Shah in power and were the ones who installed him decades before. It was the Iranian people who overthrew the Shah!

Saddam regime was overthrown via US invasion, the only one and this was done illegally (not that you would care about things like the rule of law). Saddam would have actually fallen on his own years ago though if the west hadnt given him so much support and helped his party rise to power in the first place heh? Lets not forget that important tidbit.

He may be right about one thing in the end....it may be the US who ends up Israels enemy in the long run. The US has a history of installing regimes and then later having falling out with those regimes and then become enemies...as was the case with Iraq.

Gaffer

09-17-2007, 09:51 AM

You really arent the most informed are ya?

The USSR fell under its own weight and spent too much money trying to oppress people who refused.

The Shah was not overthrown by the US, the US wanted to KEEP the Shah in power and were the ones who installed him decades before. It was the Iranian people who overthrew the Shah!

Saddam regime was overthrown via US invasion, the only one and this was done illegally (not that you would care about things like the rule of law). Saddam would have actually fallen on his own years ago though if the west hadnt given him so much support and helped his party rise to power in the first place heh? Lets not forget that important tidbit.

He may be right about one thing in the end....it may be the US who ends up Israels enemy in the long run. The US has a history of installing regimes and then later having falling out with those regimes and then become enemies...as was the case with Iraq.

The shah was overthrown and it was allowed to happen by the carter administration. He was appeasing the russians at the time, expecting the shah to be replaced by some commie group under russian control. carter was busy selling out the country even back then.

The russians bankrupted themselves keeping up with the USA. They collapsed because of the arms race. It was Reagan's doing. The cold war ended with a russian defeat. You lost comrade.

And saddam was taken down by direct invason as we all know. Three regime changes all due to US actions.

I have not only read the history I have lived it.

Ruby

09-17-2007, 02:27 PM

The shah was overthrown and it was allowed to happen by the carter administration. He was appeasing the russians at the time, expecting the shah to be replaced by some commie group under russian control. carter was busy selling out the country even back then.

The russians bankrupted themselves keeping up with the USA. They collapsed because of the arms race. It was Reagan's doing. The cold war ended with a russian defeat. You lost comrade.

And saddam was taken down by direct invason as we all know. Three regime changes all due to US actions.

I have not only read the history I have lived it.

Just when I thought you wouldnt make a bigger fool of yourself, you come and prove me wrong! LOL

Carter couldnt "allow" or "disallow" that overthrow. All Carter could do was protect the US backed Shah from harm, which he did and I dont think he should have done. The fact that you try to credit the US with that in ANY way is just downright stupid. Iran overthrew him because he was a western puppet and he was brutal to the people and that movement didnt happen overnight...it took years to build and be successful.

The arms race did play a part in the fall of the USSR but the truth is they collapsed because they couldnt keep the people oppressed and its expensive to conduct military oppression throughout an empire who doesnt consent to your rule.

They tried to rule over 120 different ethnic groups in numerous republics that were and felt seperate from Moscow and all had their own demands and constant uprisings. Sending military in to put down the uprisings over and over only meant the harsh rule would feed the peoples motivation to rise up.... a vicious cycle that the USSR couldnt keep up.

It is also important to note that Gorbachovs reforms went a long way to dissolve the USSR. Glastnost did a lot to end the USSR.

The idea that Reagan caused the collapse of the USSR is a laughable at best and pathetic at worst that a person would actually be that uninformed or believe in such simplified grammar school explanations.

Saddam we did invade and we also helped install him.

The fact that you even want to TRY and pretend that the Iran overthrow of the Shah is somehow connected to US efforts or lack of efforts is amazing. You arent even embarrassed! ROFL! You should be very very glad that you are soooo horribly uninformed you dont even have the good sense to be embarrassed over such foolishness...at least you spare yourself some uncomfortable feelings and give some others a good laugh.

Gaffer

09-17-2007, 07:58 PM

Just when I thought you wouldnt make a bigger fool of yourself, you come and prove me wrong! LOL

Carter couldnt "allow" or "disallow" that overthrow. All Carter could do was protect the US backed Shah from harm, which he did and I dont think he should have done. The fact that you try to credit the US with that in ANY way is just downright stupid. Iran overthrew him because he was a western puppet and he was brutal to the people and that movement didnt happen overnight...it took years to build and be successful.

The arms race did play a part in the fall of the USSR but the truth is they collapsed because they couldnt keep the people oppressed and its expensive to conduct military oppression throughout an empire who doesnt consent to your rule.

They tried to rule over 120 different ethnic groups in numerous republics that were and felt seperate from Moscow and all had their own demands and constant uprisings. Sending military in to put down the uprisings over and over only meant the harsh rule would feed the peoples motivation to rise up.... a vicious cycle that the USSR couldnt keep up.

It is also important to note that Gorbachovs reforms went a long way to dissolve the USSR. Glastnost did a lot to end the USSR.

The idea that Reagan caused the collapse of the USSR is a laughable at best and pathetic at worst that a person would actually be that uninformed or believe in such simplified grammar school explanations.

Saddam we did invade and we also helped install him.

The fact that you even want to TRY and pretend that the Iran overthrow of the Shah is somehow connected to US efforts or lack of efforts is amazing. You arent even embarrassed! ROFL! You should be very very glad that you are soooo horribly uninformed you dont even have the good sense to be embarrassed over such foolishness...at least you spare yourself some uncomfortable feelings and give some others a good laugh.

Nothing like a commie with revisionist history. Do you actually believe the garbage you post or do you just follow what's outlined for you? Your BS gets sillier all the time. But keep trying.

Ruby

09-17-2007, 11:34 PM

Nothing like a commie with revisionist history. Do you actually believe the garbage you post or do you just follow what's outlined for you? Your BS gets sillier all the time. But keep trying.

I cant even call you a revisionist, you JUST MAKE STUFF UP! The Iran bit was especially funny!

I repeat, its a good thing you dont have enough sense to be embarrrassed...ignorance has its perks!

Abbey Marie

09-18-2007, 09:56 AM

Yet no one is threatening to blow the US or Israel off the face of the earth...its takes real paranoia to see threats that dont exist.

Really? How on earth could anyone not know the quote below from Ahmadinejad? It was all over the news. Your above statement tells me that you are either really ignorant or making stuff up. Either way, you have just lost a ton of credibility, Ruby.

Speaking at a seminar entitled “World without Zionism”, Ahmadinejad said that Israel was the product of an ideological war between the “Arrogant World Order” and the “Islamic rule”, adding that the Jewish state had to be wiped off the face of the earth.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4137

This is just one of tons of sites with this quote.

Monkeybone

09-18-2007, 10:56 AM

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NOR20070120&articleId=4527

Here is exactly what he said.

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Then is his speech he went on...

These all make comparisons to regime change and certainly not a genocide attempt as its been propagandized as. He is not calling for extermination of jews, but of a regime change in the lands of Jerusalem.

oh..my bad. sorry to take vanishing from the page of time as "wipe them out". i guess that making them vanish and become nothing but a page in the history book is all warm and fuzzy. :poke:

and how would they go about this regime change? just wait?

Gaffer

09-18-2007, 12:54 PM

I cant even call you a revisionist, you JUST MAKE STUFF UP! The Iran bit was especially funny!

I repeat, its a good thing you dont have enough sense to be embarrrassed...ignorance has its perks!

iran fell to the radical islamists, but it was not suppose to happen. They were suppose to bring down the shah and the marxists were suppose to take over. The marxists under estimated the islamists. The marxists were all arrested and imprisoned. In 1981 they and 30,000 others were executed. effectively eliminating any further threat from the populous.

The US did NOT put saddam in power. saddam put saddam in power. The US also did NOT supply saddam with weapons. The russians and french DID. Including the WMD's he used.

There's real history on all of this out there. You just have to read it. But I don't expect a marxist like you to bother with that. Your too busy revising history to read about the real stuff.

Ruby

09-19-2007, 11:47 AM

Really? How on earth could anyone not know the quote below from Ahmadinejad? It was all over the news. Your above statement tells me that you are either really ignorant or making stuff up. Either way, you have just lost a ton of credibility, Ruby.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4137

This is just one of tons of sites with this quote.

Yea I am fully aware that the corp owned media kept repeating the same quote, no matter how inaccurate it was.

The quote in arabic and its actual translation was already provided. He never even used the word MAP!

Credibility?? Oh I wouldnt expect a shivering fear junkie like yourself to even begin to understand what credibility is even based on!

Ruby

09-19-2007, 11:49 AM

oh..my bad. sorry to take vanishing from the page of time as "wipe them out". i guess that making them vanish and become nothing but a page in the history book is all warm and fuzzy. :poke:

and how would they go about this regime change? just wait?

again read it! He made comparisons and its obvious that he actually believes that "right" will always win out, I dont believe that but he is at least pretending to. He never said anything to indicate that Iran would MAKE IT HAPPEN or ATTACK THEM. He never claimed Iran would GO ABOUT making a regime change, just his belief that unjust and evil regimes do ultimately fall.

Ruby

09-19-2007, 11:58 AM

iran fell to the radical islamists, but it was not suppose to happen. They were suppose to bring down the shah and the marxists were suppose to take over. The marxists under estimated the islamists. The marxists were all arrested and imprisoned. In 1981 they and 30,000 others were executed. effectively eliminating any further threat from the populous.

The US did NOT put saddam in power. saddam put saddam in power. The US also did NOT supply saddam with weapons. The russians and french DID. Including the WMD's he used.

There's real history on all of this out there. You just have to read it. But I don't expect a marxist like you to bother with that. Your too busy revising history to read about the real stuff.

The overthrow of the Shah was a movement that began and gained momentum because the Shah was brutal and was a US puppet. It wasnt the US who started that particular coup nor were they able to stop it....its not our country though and we shouldnt have ever interferred in their nation like that in the first place.

The US did supply Saddam weapons AND it did help the bath party and then Saddam gain power...you are seriously uninformed.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php

September, 1980. Iraq invades Iran. The beginning of the Iraq-Iran war. [8]

February, 1982. Despite objections from congress, President Reagan removes Iraq from its list of known terrorist countries. [1]

December, 1982. Hughes Aircraft ships 60 Defender helicopters to Iraq. [9]

1982-1988. Defense Intelligence Agency provides detailed information for Iraq on Iranian deployments, tactical planning for battles, plans for air strikes and bomb damage assessments. [4]

November, 1983. A National Security Directive states that the U.S would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran. [1] & [15]

Donald Rumsfeld -Reagan's Envoy- provided Iraq with
chemical & biological weapons
November, 1983. Banca Nazionale del Lavoro of Italy and its Branch in Atlanta begin to funnel $5 billion in unreported loans to Iraq. Iraq, with the blessing and official approval of the US government, purchased computer controlled machine tools, computers, scientific instruments, special alloy steel and aluminum, chemicals, and other industrial goods for Iraq's missile, chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs. [14]

October, 1983. The Reagan Administration begins secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs to Iraq. These shipments violated the Arms Export Control Act. [16]

November 1983. George Schultz, the Secretary of State, is given intelligence reports showing that Iraqi troops are daily using chemical weapons against the Iranians. [1]

December 20, 1983. Donald Rumsfeld , then a civilian and now Defense Secretary, meets with Saddam Hussein to assure him of US friendship and materials support. [1] & [15]

July, 1984. CIA begins giving Iraq intelligence necessary to calibrate its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. [19]

January 14, 1984. State Department memo acknowledges United States shipment of "dual-use" export hardware and technology. Dual use items are civilian items such as heavy trucks, armored ambulances and communications gear as well as industrial technology that can have a military application. [2]

March, 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons. [10]

May, 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax. [3]

May, 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq. [7]

I bolded a few tid-bits for ya and of course there is more in the link. We helped Iraq wage an aggressive war against its neighbor in a MULTITUDE of ways, but one of them was supply WEAPONS..bombs and biological weapons even! We helped with intelligence and gave logistical support as well.

Ruby

09-19-2007, 12:03 PM

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/51/217.html

In early 1963, Saddam had more important things to worry about than his outstanding bill at the Andiana Cafe. On February 8, a military coup in Baghdad, in which the Baath Party played a leading role, overthrew Qassim. Support for the conspirators was limited. In the first hours of fighting, they had only nine tanks under their control. The Baath Party had just 850 active members. But Qassim ignored warnings about the impending coup. What tipped the balance against him was the involvement of the United States. He had taken Iraq out of the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact. In 1961, he threatened to occupy Kuwait and nationalized part of the Iraq Petroleum Company (IPC), the foreign oil consortium that exploited Iraq's oil. In retrospect, it was the ClAs favorite coup. We really had the ts crossed on what was happening, James Critchfield, then head of the CIA in the Middle East, told us. We regarded it as a great victory. Iraqi participants later confirmed American involvement. We came to power on a CIA train, admitted Ali Saleh Sa'adi, the Baath Party secretary general who was about to institute an unprecedented reign of terror. CIA assistance reportedly included coordination of the coup plotters from the agency's station inside the U.S. embassy in Baghdad as well as a clandestine radio station in Kuwait and solicitation of advice from around the Middle East on who on the left should be eliminated once the coup was successful. To the end, Qassim retained his popularity in the streets of Baghdad. After his execution, his sup- porters refused to believe he was dead until the coup leaders showed pictures of his bullet-riddled body on TV and in the newspapers.

More in the link of course!

Abbey Marie

09-19-2007, 02:22 PM

Yea I am fully aware that the corp owned media kept repeating the same quote, no matter how inaccurate it was.

The quote in arabic and its actual translation was already provided. He never even used the word MAP!

Credibility?? Oh I wouldnt expect a shivering fear junkie like yourself to even begin to understand what credibility is even based on!

Every single one of the dozens (if not hundreds) of media reports are wrong, but our Ruby is right! Wow, how lucky are we to be graced with such an incredible mind right here on our own board?
:laugh2:

Btw, your insults to me are laughable too, but I don't want to overdo the smilies in one post. Where credibility is concerned, right now it's everyone else = 100, Ruby = 0

Ruby

09-19-2007, 02:32 PM

Every single one of the dozens (if not hundreds) of media reports are wrong, but our widdle Ruby is right! Wow, how lucky are we to be graced with such an incredible mind right here on our own board?
:laugh2:

Btw, your insults to me are laughable too, but I don't want to overdo the smilies in one post. Where credibility is concerned, right now it's everyone else = 100, Ruby = 0

Gee I guess you dont understand how many media outlets are actually owned by some of the entities OR that numerous stories are all picked up from ONE SOURCE and sent around huh?

The FACT that his actual quote in the language he speaks in IS available along with the EXACT translation should just be dismissed HUH?

Obviously you arent really that amused by what you call insults (and I call observations) otherwise you wouldnt feel a need to neg rep, but feel free to neg rep often if it makes you feel better.

Fictional scorecards!! Oh thats really funny....HOW OLD ARE YOU? I hope you are under 14 years old because the scorecard thing is a bit pathetic if you are a day over that age!

Gunny

09-19-2007, 05:33 PM

Gee I guess you dont understand how many media outlets are actually owned by some of the entities OR that numerous stories are all picked up from ONE SOURCE and sent around huh?

The FACT that his actual quote in the language he speaks in IS available along with the EXACT translation should just be dismissed HUH?

Obviously you arent really that amused by what you call insults (and I call observations) otherwise you wouldnt feel a need to neg rep, but feel free to neg rep often if it makes you feel better.

Fictional scorecards!! Oh thats really funny....HOW OLD ARE YOU? I hope you are under 14 years old because the scorecard thing is a bit pathetic if you are a day over that age!

I see I'm not the only one that thinks you're a condescending bitch.

Abbey Marie

09-19-2007, 09:42 PM

Gee I guess you dont understand how many media outlets are actually owned by some of the entities OR that numerous stories are all picked up from ONE SOURCE and sent around huh?

The FACT that his actual quote in the language he speaks in IS available along with the EXACT translation should just be dismissed HUH?

Obviously you arent really that amused by what you call insults (and I call observations) otherwise you wouldnt feel a need to neg rep, but feel free to neg rep often if it makes you feel better.

Fictional scorecards!! Oh thats really funny....HOW OLD ARE YOU? I hope you are under 14 years old because the scorecard thing is a bit pathetic if you are a day over that age!

Looks like you really get upset by that fictional scorecard. :poke:

Ruby

09-24-2007, 11:14 AM

I see I'm not the only one that thinks you're a condescending bitch.

I also doubt you are the only TWO in fact!! Reactionary Fear Junkies congregate, no surprise there.

Ruby

09-24-2007, 11:18 AM

Looks like you really get upset by that fictional scorecard. :poke:

Upset??? By a message board? Nah, that would just be silly.

The fact that you also project your own feelings onto others is yet another sign you are in your adolescence still...at least I hope you are, if you are truly an adult, its just pathetic and sad.

Gunny

09-24-2007, 05:12 PM

I also doubt you are the only TWO in fact!! Reactionary Fear Junkies congregate, no surprise there.

Reactionary fear junkie because I don't stiff my head up my ass and pretend there are no bad guys if I can't see them? I think not. It DOES however make you an ostrich waiting to have your ass shot off and you refuse to even look and see it coming. Not that it would be any great loss.

Regardless, there seems to be a chink the pseudo-intellectually elite armor ... whether or not I may be a "reactionary fear junkie" is completely irrelevent to the fact that you are a condescending bitch.

Gunny

09-24-2007, 05:17 PM

Upset??? By a message board? Nah, that would just be silly.

The fact that you also project your own feelings onto others is yet another sign you are in your adolescence still...at least I hope you are, if you are truly an adult, its just pathetic and sad.

Pathetic and sad better describes one who is so steeped in bullshit, extremist political ideology that reality doesn't even come close to playing a part in your thinking.

Ruby

09-25-2007, 08:28 AM

Pathetic and sad better describes one who is so steeped in bullshit, extremist political ideology that reality doesn't even come close to playing a part in your thinking.

My extremist political ideology, as in opposed to your bigot based fear junkie support of invading other nations in aggressive wars? I dont think it gets much more extreme than that.

I may be a consescending bitch, but it sure beats being a bigoted shivering coward like you.

Gunny

09-25-2007, 04:33 PM

My extremist political ideology, as in opposed to your bigot based fear junkie support of invading other nations in aggressive wars? I dont think it gets much more extreme than that.

I may be a consescending bitch, but it sure beats being a bigoted shivering coward like you.

Coward? :laugh2: I've walked my talk bitch ... what've YOU done besides run your suck telling everyone how much smarter you think you are than they?

Supporting invading other nations (all war is aggressive by default, dumbass) has absolutely NOTHING to do with the accusation you have obviously pulled out your ass. It doesn't take a "fear junkie" to be smart enough to recognize an enemy.

But I'd watch who you call coward, cuz IMO, a condescending bitch throwing out bogus accusations and otherwise generally sitting on th esidelins sniping at people who actually have the balls to do something is the gutless swine ... and YOU fit THAT bill to a "T".

Gaffer

09-25-2007, 04:44 PM

Quite true. Real strength is standing up to the war mongers and telling them NO. It takes true strength and character to seek more humane and peaceful solutions. It takes nothing more than a violent knuckle dragger without any respect for human life to bomb and kill people.

we are talking about sanctions against iran. Sanctions are used in place of war to make a country do something. Stronger sanctions would make it more possible to get iran to stop building nukes without having to go to war. Weak sanctions mean a lot bigger chance of a war breaking out. Germany is wimpling out like they did with saddam, wonder what business deals they have going with iran like they did with saddam.

Gaffer

09-25-2007, 04:45 PM

The ol, you are with us or against us crap!

How about siding with human decency and common sense...oh wait,that would make them against the US since the US has lost both of those.

It's obvious your against us. why don't you go practice blowing up your suicide vest.

Gunny

09-25-2007, 07:22 PM

It's obvious your against us. why don't you go practice blowing up your suicide vest.

She reminds me of the old biddy in the cafe in Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds," telling people scratched and bleeding from being attacked by birds that its preposterous that birds would attack people.:laugh2:

Ruby

09-28-2007, 05:26 AM

It's obvious your against us. why don't you go practice blowing up your suicide vest.

Well I am definitely against YOU and other neocon freaks who shiver in fear over the boogieman in the closet.

How sweet, an invitation to kill myself, but of course I have no desire to do such a thing. Of course you want people dead who dont agree with you, just more evidence of your desires and love of fascism.

Ruby

09-28-2007, 05:30 AM

Coward? :laugh2: I've walked my talk bitch ... what've YOU done besides run your suck telling everyone how much smarter you think you are than they?

Supporting invading other nations (all war is aggressive by default, dumbass) has absolutely NOTHING to do with the accusation you have obviously pulled out your ass. It doesn't take a "fear junkie" to be smart enough to recognize an enemy.

But I'd watch who you call coward, cuz IMO, a condescending bitch throwing out bogus accusations and otherwise generally sitting on th esidelins sniping at people who actually have the balls to do something is the gutless swine ... and YOU fit THAT bill to a "T".

OOH more scary swagger from the bastard fear junkie!

Yea you walked the walk behind a gun. You only prove you have no idea what REAL courage is. You think its all about pointing weapons at people that scare you.

I dont think your warnings work on me, nor do I think I owe you my resume on what I HAVE DONE.

I call it like I see it and you are such a typical coward who thinks weapons and macho bravado swaggering actually mask the fear when the truth is that it only REVEALS it like a neon flashing sign.

Go check under your bed, the boogieman is probably hiding there waiting for ya!

Ruby

09-28-2007, 05:33 AM

we are talking about sanctions against iran. Sanctions are used in place of war to make a country do something. Stronger sanctions would make it more possible to get iran to stop building nukes without having to go to war. Weak sanctions mean a lot bigger chance of a war breaking out. Germany is wimpling out like they did with saddam, wonder what business deals they have going with iran like they did with saddam.

Gee first you should PROVE they are building weapons and according to the actual inspectors...they ARENT!

You are just sitting here falling for the same LIE for a second time..that would make you an idiot. Come one say it with me "Fool me once, shame on you, you fool me...cant get fooled again!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntwdH3Q54ZY

Iran shouldnt be sanctioned AT ALL, they are doing what is within their rights to do. They have a RIGHT to pursue a civilian nuclear program and thats ALL WE HAVE PROOF OF THEM DOING...we HAVE ZERO evidence of them doing ANYTHING BEYOND THAT.

Gaffer

09-28-2007, 07:29 PM

Gee first you should PROVE they are building weapons and according to the actual inspectors...they ARENT!

You are just sitting here falling for the same LIE for a second time..that would make you an idiot. Come one say it with me "Fool me once, shame on you, you fool me...cant get fooled again!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntwdH3Q54ZY

Iran shouldnt be sanctioned AT ALL, they are doing what is within their rights to do. They have a RIGHT to pursue a civilian nuclear program and thats ALL WE HAVE PROOF OF THEM DOING...we HAVE ZERO evidence of them doing ANYTHING BEYOND THAT.

So how much do you get paid to recite this bullshit?

Ruby

09-30-2007, 02:52 AM

So how much do you get paid to recite this bullshit?

Are the facts bugging you?

Abbey Marie

09-30-2007, 10:03 AM

Are the facts bugging you?

Yes, I am sure Gaffer is bugged by the "fact" that you apparently loathe your own country. True patriots like Gaffer are kinda like that.

actsnoblemartin

09-30-2007, 03:12 PM

I agree, europe has been apologizing for islamo nazi terrorists for far too long.

WASHINGTON — A recent decision by German officials to withhold support for any new sanctions against Iran has pushed a broad spectrum of officials in Washington to develop potential scenarios for a military attack on the Islamic regime, FOX News confirmed Tuesday.

Germany — a pivotal player among three European nations to rein in Iran's nuclear program over the last two-and-a-half years through a mixture of diplomacy and sanctions supported by the United States — notified its allies last week that the government of Chancellor Angela Merkel refuses to support the imposition of any further sanctions against Iran that could be imposed by the U.N. Security Council.

Read the rest here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296450,00.html

Gaffer

09-30-2007, 04:19 PM

Are the facts bugging you?

Facts never bug me. Anti-American communist shitbags who don't even live in this country do.

It's obvious from your posts you hate America and everything it stands for.

Ruby

10-01-2007, 10:49 AM

Yes, I am sure Gaffer is bugged by the "fact" that you apparently loathe your own country. True patriots like Gaffer are kinda like that.

Yea if you dont pretend that we are perfect and if you dont ignore the true facts then it must mean you loathe your country! LOL!

Ruby

10-01-2007, 10:52 AM

Facts never bug me. Anti-American communist shitbags who don't even live in this country do.

It's obvious from your posts you hate America and everything it stands for.

Oh well then you can be as bugged out as you wanna. Its obvious from your posts that facts arent your friend and you wouldnt know one if it walked up and conked you over the head.

SOOOO....where is that PROOF and EVIDENCE that Iran is building nuclear weapons???

Ruby

10-01-2007, 10:53 AM

I agree, europe has been apologizing for islamo nazi terrorists for far too long.

By all means, maybe you should start advocationg waging war on Europe as well and bomb the crap out Europe...lets see how far that gets ya.

Abbey Marie

10-01-2007, 11:00 AM

Yea if you dont pretend that we are perfect and if you dont ignore the true facts then it must mean you loathe your country! LOL!

I'm sure that Gaffer has seen enough in his military experience to know we are not perfect. Do you actually expect perfection from your government? Try to remember, government is made up of people, and people all sin. It's the nature of the beast. If you expect anything else, you will continue to live a life of bitterness and disappointment.

Ruby, you're going to have to trust me on this. Your version of America is so negative and so based on (IMO, wacked-out) ideology, that "facts" aren't even in play. However, your animosity toward our country is, and it's there for all to see.

Btw, just so we can try to understand your disaffections better:

Are you American? For how long? Do you live in the U.S.A.? Are you over or under 25?