Madison, WI Nazi Style Crackdown...

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Just heard on the news that the cops were going door to door on Miflin St. in Madison, the site of a yearly UW block party, warning people that anyone outside in a group larger than those in their household would be ticketed and possibly jailed, that the party is OFF. Makes me wonder... will ALL those college kids just go... oh, ok... or will some of them think, that's unconstitutional and get pissed off. It will be interesting to see.

So evidently, your constitutional rights have been VOIDED by little ass wipe ferret face Evers. Funny they didn't mess with the recent adult protest at the capitol protesting such actions.

This is all, NOT GOOD. This nation has been through hell already with Ebola, Sars, Aides, H1N1, you name it, and NEVER did we take such draconian steps. Never did we piss on people's constitutional rights. Never did we force businesses to close and people not go to work. And look at all those just TRASHING, ANYONE, that DARES suggest we need to get this nation back to work.

Well think about this. What if this is a TRIAL RUN to see how EASY it is to make people comply with UNCONSTITUTIONAL orders? What if the people cheering on keeping everything closed have motives other than keeping people SAFE? Who would benefit from that? What political party is it that needs people DEPENDENT ON THE GOVERNMENT? What political party is it in the states with the most draconian orders and anti constitutional crap? Well, DEMOCRAT. Who has been LYING to the American people for the last FOUR YEARS? DEMOCRATS.

Now all of a sudden you're going to TRUST THEM, IMPLICITLY, WITHOUT QUESTION? Let them just trample your constitutional rights?

I'll tell ya what... I do NOT like what's going on. I think a very LARGE portion of EVERYTHING that's being said and done is POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

Has anyone heard the news or a press briefing mentioning how many people have tested NEGATIVE? How about how many people have RECOVERED? How about how many that are IMMUNE? Where's the posting and talking about all the GOOD numbers? WHY are we bombarded with ONLY the NEGATIVE numbers?

This shit has to end, period. This nation has to get back to work and quit with all the FEAR MONGERING, or we will NOT have a nation left, and this talk about it's going to come back in the FALL, WORSE, and even next Srping? Then why are we bothering locking down the nation now? Are we to just REMAIN CLOSED DOWN? THERE WON'T BE ANYTHING LEFT. We'll have ARMED INSURRECTION LONG before that, because people will be BROKE, HOMELESS and STARVING.

We can reopen the nation and STILL, PROTECT, the most vulnerable, but we DO, NEED, to get this country back to work.

[Kathianne]

Just heard on the news that the cops were going door to door on Miflin St. in Madison, the site of a yearly UW block party, warning people that anyone outside in a group larger than those in their household would be ticketed and possibly jailed, that the party is OFF. Makes me wonder... will ALL those college kids just go... oh, ok... or will some of them think, that's unconstitutional and get pissed off. It will be interesting to see.

So evidently, your constitutional rights have been VOIDED by little ass wipe ferret face Evers. Funny they didn't mess with the recent adult protest at the capitol protesting such actions.

This is all, NOT GOOD. This nation has been through hell already with Ebola, Sars, Aides, H1N1, you name it, and NEVER did we take such draconian steps. Never did we piss on people's constitutional rights. Never did we force businesses to close and people not go to work. And look at all those just TRASHING, ANYONE, that DARES suggest we need to get this nation back to work.

Well think about this. What if this is a TRIAL RUN to see how EASY it is to make people comply with UNCONSTITUTIONAL orders? What if the people cheering on keeping everything closed have motives other than keeping people SAFE? Who would benefit from that? What political party is it that needs people DEPENDENT ON THE GOVERNMENT? What political party is it the states with the most draconian orders and anti constitutional crap are? Well, DEMOCRAT. Who has been LYING to the American people for the last FOUR YEARS? DEMOCRATS.

Now all of a sudden you're going to TRUST THEM, IMPLICITLY, WITHOUT QUESTION?

I'll tell ya what... I do NOT like what's going on. I think a very LARGE portion of EVERYTHING that's being said and done is POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

Has anyone heard the news or a press briefing mentioning how many people have tested NEGATIVE? How about how many people have RECOVERED? How about how many that are IMMUNE? Where's the posting and talking about all the GOOD numbers? WHY are bombarded with ONLY the NEGATIVE numbers?

This shit has to end, period. This nation has to get back to work and quit with all the FEAR MONGERING, or we will NOT have a nation left, and this talk about it's going to come back in the FALL, WORSE, and even next Srping? Then what are we bothering locking down the nation now? Are we to just REMAIN CLOSED DOWN? THERE WON'T BE ANYTHING LEFT. We'll have ARMED INSURRECTION LONG before that, because people will be BROKE, HOMELESS and STARVING.

We can reopen the nation and STILL, PROTECT, the most vulnerable, but we DO, NEED, to get this country back to work.
How is annual party different than beach goers during break?

Madison has had ride in past few days

[Kathianne]

How is annual party different than beach goers during break?

Madison has had ride in past few days
What if your mom was in the building?

[FakeNewsSux]

Don't worry about his mom attending the party. I know all about the Mifflin Street Block Party from my days at UW-Madison. My dorm was about five blocks west of the party freshman year and knew people with houses on Mifflin Street every year after. It is (or rather, was) the annual springtime counter culture bacchanalia. Every house on the street was open to the roaming, wasted public. Three blocks shut down with a stage where they would have a Quaalude toss between musical acts (special thanks to the Wisconsin Student Association Pharmacy for providing the 1000 tablet jar each year), 10-12 people walking through the crowd with paper grocery bags of joints free for the taking and of course any type of hallucinogen your little heart would desire.

The ironic part this year is the neo socialist government of the City of Madison criminalizing the day to day behavior of their constituency by sending their shock troops out into the street threatening them with the wrath of The Man if they have any fun. Gotta love it!

[Kathianne]

Don't worry about his mom attending the party. I know all about the Mifflin Street Block Party from my days at UW-Madison. My dorm was about five blocks west of the party freshman year and knew people with houses on Mifflin Street every year after. It is (or rather, was) the annual springtime counter culture bacchanalia. Every house on the street was open to the roaming, wasted public. Three blocks shut down with a stage where they would have a Quaalude toss between musical acts (special thanks to the Wisconsin Student Association Pharmacy for providing the 1000 tablet jar each year), 10-12 people walking through the crowd with paper grocery bags of joints free for the taking and of course any type of hallucinogen your little heart would desire.

The ironic part this year is the neo socialist government of the City of Madison criminalizing the day to day behavior of their constituency by sending their shock troops out into the street threatening them with the wrath of The Man if they have any fun. Gotta love it!
Yeah, I know your POV, which is fine.

I also get we can’t have it both ways, rant when it’s not us or ours, freak when it is.

[Evmetro]

Just heard on the news that the cops were going door to door on Miflin St. in Madison, the site of a yearly UW block party, warning people that anyone outside in a group larger than those in their household would be ticketed and possibly jailed, that the party is OFF. Makes me wonder... will ALL those college kids just go... oh, ok... or will some of them think, that's unconstitutional and get pissed off. It will be interesting to see.

So evidently, your constitutional rights have been VOIDED by little ass wipe ferret face Evers. Funny they didn't mess with the recent adult protest at the capitol protesting such actions.

This is all, NOT GOOD. This nation has been through hell already with Ebola, Sars, Aides, H1N1, you name it, and NEVER did we take such draconian steps. Never did we piss on people's constitutional rights. Never did we force businesses to close and people not go to work. And look at all those just TRASHING, ANYONE, that DARES suggest we need to get this nation back to work.

Well think about this. What if this is a TRIAL RUN to see how EASY it is to make people comply with UNCONSTITUTIONAL orders? What if the people cheering on keeping everything closed have motives other than keeping people SAFE? Who would benefit from that? What political party is it that needs people DEPENDENT ON THE GOVERNMENT? What political party is it in the states with the most draconian orders and anti constitutional crap? Well, DEMOCRAT. Who has been LYING to the American people for the last FOUR YEARS? DEMOCRATS.

Now all of a sudden you're going to TRUST THEM, IMPLICITLY, WITHOUT QUESTION? Let them just trample your constitutional rights?

I'll tell ya what... I do NOT like what's going on. I think a very LARGE portion of EVERYTHING that's being said and done is POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

Has anyone heard the news or a press briefing mentioning how many people have tested NEGATIVE? How about how many people have RECOVERED? How about how many that are IMMUNE? Where's the posting and talking about all the GOOD numbers? WHY are we bombarded with ONLY the NEGATIVE numbers?

This shit has to end, period. This nation has to get back to work and quit with all the FEAR MONGERING, or we will NOT have a nation left, and this talk about it's going to come back in the FALL, WORSE, and even next Srping? Then why are we bothering locking down the nation now? Are we to just REMAIN CLOSED DOWN? THERE WON'T BE ANYTHING LEFT. We'll have ARMED INSURRECTION LONG before that, because people will be BROKE, HOMELESS and STARVING.

We can reopen the nation and STILL, PROTECT, the most vulnerable, but we DO, NEED, to get this country back to work.
Amen. I have not complied with any shutdowns, and I do not plan to.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Amen. I have not complied with any shutdowns, and I do not plan to.
I've complied with the social distancing, and even stayed home more than I want to, but I'm doing it as my CHOICE, because I'm following ADVICE, not because some POS little ass wipe democrat gov thinks he has the power to willy nilly SUSPEND my constitutional rights.

[Abbey Marie]

Sorry, but I wouldn’t want that mess going on even without a deadly virus around.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Sorry, but I wouldn’t want that mess going on even without a deadly virus around.
Yes, it is a mess, but then so is Madison. This is the kind of thing Madison is famous for, since it's one of the most liberal cities in America.

I hope all those little indoctrinated college kids love the heavy handed tyranny of the leftists they voted into office now. I love it when the left has to suffer itself.

[Hot Dogger]

Madison has great restaurants the same as any socialist country, it gives the elites something to live for, and the peons something to do.

It's a city where van dyke beards and argyle sweaters never went out of fashion, they're still a popular attire. And not just for the men.

[reason10]

Just heard on the news that the cops were going door to door on Miflin St. in Madison, the site of a yearly UW block party, warning people that anyone outside in a group larger than those in their household would be ticketed and possibly jailed, that the party is OFF. Makes me wonder... will ALL those college kids just go... oh, ok... or will some of them think, that's unconstitutional and get pissed off. It will be interesting to see.

So evidently, your constitutional rights have been VOIDED by little ass wipe ferret face Evers. Funny they didn't mess with the recent adult protest at the capitol protesting such actions.

This is all, NOT GOOD. This nation has been through hell already with Ebola, Sars, Aides, H1N1, you name it, and NEVER did we take such draconian steps. Never did we piss on people's constitutional rights. Never did we force businesses to close and people not go to work. And look at all those just TRASHING, ANYONE, that DARES suggest we need to get this nation back to work.

Well think about this. What if this is a TRIAL RUN to see how EASY it is to make people comply with UNCONSTITUTIONAL orders? What if the people cheering on keeping everything closed have motives other than keeping people SAFE? Who would benefit from that? What political party is it that needs people DEPENDENT ON THE GOVERNMENT? What political party is it in the states with the most draconian orders and anti constitutional crap? Well, DEMOCRAT. Who has been LYING to the American people for the last FOUR YEARS? DEMOCRATS.

Now all of a sudden you're going to TRUST THEM, IMPLICITLY, WITHOUT QUESTION? Let them just trample your constitutional rights?

I'll tell ya what... I do NOT like what's going on. I think a very LARGE portion of EVERYTHING that's being said and done is POLITICALLY MOTIVATED.

Has anyone heard the news or a press briefing mentioning how many people have tested NEGATIVE? How about how many people have RECOVERED? How about how many that are IMMUNE? Where's the posting and talking about all the GOOD numbers? WHY are we bombarded with ONLY the NEGATIVE numbers?

This shit has to end, period. This nation has to get back to work and quit with all the FEAR MONGERING, or we will NOT have a nation left, and this talk about it's going to come back in the FALL, WORSE, and even next Srping? Then why are we bothering locking down the nation now? Are we to just REMAIN CLOSED DOWN? THERE WON'T BE ANYTHING LEFT. We'll have ARMED INSURRECTION LONG before that, because people will be BROKE, HOMELESS and STARVING.

We can reopen the nation and STILL, PROTECT, the most vulnerable, but we DO, NEED, to get this country back to work.

Perhaps your story explains this:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michigan-gov-whitmer-faces-protest-outside-her-home-as-lawmakers-mull-curbing-her-powers

(https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michigan-gov-whitmer-faces-protest-outside-her-home-as-lawmakers-mull-curbing-her-powers)Michigan Gov. Whitmer faces protest outside her home as lawmakers mull curbing her powers
Think a recall is impossible? Remember, the Governator, AHHHHnold? Became governor of a state he couldn't even pronounce.

(https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michigan-gov-whitmer-faces-protest-outside-her-home-as-lawmakers-mull-curbing-her-powers)

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Madison has great restaurants the same as any socialist country, it gives the elites something to live for, and the peons something to do.

It's a city where van dyke beards and argyle sweaters never went out of fashion, they're still a popular attire. And not just for the men.
Where's all the "great restaurants?"

Madison is first and foremost a college town. The UW campus takes up a large swath of downtown Madison and it's not far from the capitol building, where I think a lot of the newly little indoctrinated leftist naturally migrate to when they graduate with their degree in LIBERAL ARTS.

But Madison is also a lake town, with the capitol sitting on an isthmus between two lakes, much of Madison's recreation centers around the lakes. You'll find a boat parked in a lot of the area's driveways and yards.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Perhaps your story explains this:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michigan-gov-whitmer-faces-protest-outside-her-home-as-lawmakers-mull-curbing-her-powers

(https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michigan-gov-whitmer-faces-protest-outside-her-home-as-lawmakers-mull-curbing-her-powers)Michigan Gov. Whitmer faces protest outside her home as lawmakers mull curbing her powers


Think a recall is impossible? Remember, the Governator, AHHHHnold? Became governor of a state he couldn't even pronounce.

(https://www.foxnews.com/politics/michigan-gov-whitmer-faces-protest-outside-her-home-as-lawmakers-mull-curbing-her-powers)
Just saw this on the news.

But she's in a lot more hot water than just that. She gave a no bid contract to a leftist organization to is tied to the democrat party, and when she got caught she pulled it back. But it's a little late, she already had made the deal, and it looks like it was illegal.

That bitch is a total democrat shit stain. She needs to sit her ass in a jail cell for awhile to think about how corrupt she's been.

[Drummond]

Don't worry about his mom attending the party. I know all about the Mifflin Street Block Party from my days at UW-Madison. My dorm was about five blocks west of the party freshman year and knew people with houses on Mifflin Street every year after. It is (or rather, was) the annual springtime counter culture bacchanalia. Every house on the street was open to the roaming, wasted public. Three blocks shut down with a stage where they would have a Quaalude toss between musical acts (special thanks to the Wisconsin Student Association Pharmacy for providing the 1000 tablet jar each year), 10-12 people walking through the crowd with paper grocery bags of joints free for the taking and of course any type of hallucinogen your little heart would desire.

The ironic part this year is the neo socialist government of the City of Madison criminalizing the day to day behavior of their constituency by sending their shock troops out into the street threatening them with the wrath of The Man if they have any fun. Gotta love it!

Are you wondering why the American death tolls from Covid-19 are so bad ?

I'm not !

The more I read, the more convinced I become that I am not the same sort of Conservative as many of you on here. To me, the individual MATTERS. Threats to the individual should MATTER, and be COUNTERED.

Individual liberty, MATTERS. But if you're dead, well ... you're not alive to enjoy it !!

This seems to be a very simple lesson that pro-Constitutionalists haven't grasped here !!

I ask: did those responsible for drafting the Constitution, EVER envisage circumstances where their document could be used to justify making it easy for a pathogen to infect and kill ? Did they, COULD they, EVER APPROVE of such a thing ?????

I hardly think so.

Yet, this is what I'm seeing happen, right now.

This report comes from a society - my own - not possessing a Constitution. So, you may not relate to what it says.

But, I'm a human being, an indvidual human being, and a Conservtive who thinks individual human life MATTERS. So .. I, DO relate to it.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/police-break-up-massive-party-18003236


Police broke up a 'massive party' with 25 guests during the coronavirus lockdown.

Officers were left in 'absolute shock' when they found the revellers ignoring social distancing rules in Derby.

The guests had even set up large speakers in the room for karaoke.

Local officers posted photos from the party on Twitter, showing a huge buffet laid out with beers, wine and various snacks.

The party-goers, including adults and children, were 'dispersed' by police.

The hosts have been 'dealt with', the post said.

The tweet, put up by Derby West Response at 12.30am this morning (Sunday) said: "Group 1 officers have just attended an address in absolute shock to find 25 adults and children having a massive party with speakers and karaoke.

"Everyone dispersed and hosts dealt with."

I fully and completely approve of the police action. I absolutely sympathise with, and share, the sense of shock that Manchester police felt, when confronted with such complete irresponsibility.

What Conservative, here, will agree with me ?

And which Conservatives, in the name of 'liberty', will think that such parties should be instead allowed to pose an infection danger to the communities they happen in ?

Or, indeed, beyond ??

How do we know that such parties didn't help facilitate the original Wuhan outbreak, threatening the entire WORLD ??

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Are you wondering why the American death tolls from Covid-19 are so bad ?
Well, for one, because we have 350,000,000 here.
Two, it's one of the worlds busiest hubs for travel in and out.
And three, because America isn't lying about our death toll, like some nations are, especially China.

And we don't do "police states" here. We hate it, period, end of story.

We have an old saying... "GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH." We all still hold that saying near and dear. Whether it's a tyrannical government trying to suppress our rights, or a virus. The reason to us is irrelevant. You don't take away our rights for any reason, unless you do it by the proper means of act of congress. Then we'll abide by it.

[Drummond]

I see.


Well, for one, because we have 350,000,000 here.

Good point. Conceded !


Two, it's one of the worlds busiest hubs for travel in and out.

Also a good point as far as it goes. Then again:

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airports-worlds-busiest-international-passengers-dubai-heathrow-hong-kong-amsterdam-paris-a8194911.html


Dubai Airports CEO Paul Griffiths said he forecasts traveller numbers to swell to 90.3 million in 2018.

It first surpassed London Heathrow, previously the world’s busiest airport for international traffic, back in 2014 – and has kept the title ever since.

London Heathrow is no longer the world's busiest airport ... though it was, a handful of years ago. It's still one of the world's busiest, though.

And freedoms incoming travellers have had to come here and infect us have long been a concern. It was a consideration our Government had to take on board, in trying to tackle Covid-19's spread.


And three, because America isn't lying about our death toll, like some nations are, especially China.

Perhaps a good point, though ... there will always be a time lag between the true infection rate, and knowing it from figures that take time to be known and reported. It's the nature of Covid-19 that you can be infected, and be infecting others, and have absolutely no idea that you are.


And we don't do "police states" here. We hate it, period, end of story.

Highly understandable.

Do you understand and accept the concept of 'martial law' ?

There are times when, militarily, they are the only option.

You don't accept there could ever be a need for a civilian equivalent ? Not even to save lives ?


We have an old saying... "GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH." We all still hold that saying near and dear. Whether it's a tyrannical government trying to suppress our rights, or a virus. The reason to us is irrelevant. You don't take away our rights for any reason, unless you do it by the proper means of act of congress. Then we'll abide by it.

So tell me. What more important or defendable reason could there be, than to SAVE thousands of lives ?? Can you perhaps suggest one ?

"GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH." H'm.

So, in the absence of liberty, you advocate avoidable death ?

I do not understand.

Do the lives of individuals really mean nothing at all ??

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I see.

Good point. Conceded !

Also a good point as far as it goes. Then again:

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/airports-worlds-busiest-international-passengers-dubai-heathrow-hong-kong-amsterdam-paris-a8194911.html

London Heathrow is no longer the world's busiest airport ... though it was, a handful of years ago. It's still one of the world's busiest, though.

And freedoms incoming travellers have had to come here and infect us have long been a concern. It was a consideration our Government had to take on board, in trying to tackle Covid-19's spread.

Perhaps a good point, though ... there will always be a time lag between the true infection rate, and knowing it from figures that take time to be known and reported. It's the nature of Covid-19 that you can be infected, and be infecting others, and have absolutely no idea that you are.

Highly understandable.

Do you understand and accept the concept of 'martial law' ?

There are times when, militarily, they are the only option.

You don't accept there could ever be a need for a civilian equivalent ? Not even to save lives ?

So tell me. What more important or defendable reason could there be, than to SAVE thousands of lives ?? Can you perhaps suggest one ?

"GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR GIVE ME DEATH." H'm.

So, in the absence of liberty, you advocate avoidable death ?

I do not understand.

Do the lives of individuals really mean nothing at all ??
Right now, there's no hard core proof that locking everyone down and trampling on our constitutional rights WILL "save thousands of lives." At best, the numbers would indicate that it will simply PROLONG the inevitable. And this "shelter in place" was initially intended to do nothing more than keep from overloading our hospitals, which we now see that that is not and will not ever be a problem.

We're beginning to see that the draconian measures taken by some were unwarranted, and that's always the problem. Panic and fear causing knee jerk reactions. Well in this case, the knee jerk reactions may very well indeed caused irreparable harm to our economy and nation, all because we listened to the WHO and it's highly inaccurate predictions, which we also now know came STRAIGHT FROM CHINA, as the WHO is nothing more than a PROPAGANDA ARM for China. This entire escapade could surely have been intended to do great harm to the United States.

[Drummond]

Adding this point in answer to 'Give me liberty, or give me death'.

I suggest it's highly flawed. Here are examples to illustrate why:

1. Imagine a serviceman, say a US soldier, has been captured and imprisoned by an enemy.

That enemy has deprived the soldier of his liberty.

So, should the soldier believe that his only proper option is to die ?

.... OR .... should he wait, for rescue ?

.... OR .... should he try to escape ?

Taking your 'Liberty or death' mantra ... he'd consider neither escape nor a rescue. He'd instead work to throw his life away.

2. Occupied countries, during WWII (e.g France, Austria ....).

Being occupied, the citizens of each country thus affected were deprived of liberty. They instead lived under the tyranny of Nazi rule.

'Liberty or death'. Should the French, and the Austrians, have committed mass suicide ?

OR, did they wait for a future in which liberty was restored ?

So you see, 'Liberty or death' doesn't actually address the real world .. it sounds grand and noble, but realism is absent.

The best defence against Covid-19, I suggest, is REALISM ... not suicidal dogma.

I hope and pray that your nutty Georgian Governor learns this in time, preferably without delay !!

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Adding this point in answer to 'Give me liberty, or give me death'.

I suggest it's highly flawed. Here are examples to illustrate why:

1. Imagine a serviceman, say a US soldier, has been captured and imprisoned by an enemy.

That enemy has deprived the soldier of his liberty.

So, should the soldier believe that his only proper option is to die ?

.... OR .... should he wait, for rescue ?

.... OR .... should he try to escape ?

Taking your 'Liberty or death' mantra ... he'd consider neither escape nor a rescue. He'd instead work to throw his life away.

2. Occupied countries, during WWII (e.g France, Austria ....).

Being occupied, the citizens of each country thus affected were deprived of liberty. They instead lived under the tyranny of Nazi rule.

'Liberty or death'. Should the French, and the Austrians, have committed mass suicide ?

OR, did they wait for a future in which liberty was restored ?

So you see, 'Liberty or death' doesn't actually address the real world .. it sounds grand and noble, but realism is absent.

The best defence against Covid-19, I suggest, is REALISM ... not suicidal dogma.

I hope and pray that your nutty Georgian Governor learns this in time, preferably without delay !!
The saying "give me liberty or give me death" came from the time of our Revolutionary war, when we kicked the British the hell otta America. The saying carries the same amount of weight today to most Americans as it did 250 years ago.

We didn't like the way you people operated back then, and we don't like the way you operate now, as far as government is concerned. We don't want kings and queens, we don't want monarchies, and we don't want to be pushed around. Our government officials work for us, we don't work for them. Our government is "of the people, by the people, for the people." Our government exists because WE ALLOW IT.

[Kathianne]

The saying "give me liberty or give me death" came from the time of our Revolutionary war, when we kicked the British the hell otta America.

We didn't like the way you people operated back then, and we don't like the way you operate now, as far as government is concerned.

I don't have any say in how Britain rules itself, I have no skin in that game. When there were colonies, different times. For anyone that remembers, England felt the colonists didn't have the same rights as Englishmen, so it was decided to become different, Americans.

[Drummond]

Right now, there's no hard core proof that locking everyone down and trampling on our constitutional rights WILL "save thousands of lives." At best, the numbers would indicate that it will simply PROLONG the inevitable. And this "shelter in place" was initially intended to do nothing more than keep from overloading our hospitals, which we now see that that is not and will not ever be a problem.

We're beginning to see that the draconian measures taken by some were unwarranted, and that's always the problem. Panic and fear causing knee jerk reactions. Well in this case, the knee jerk reactions may very well indeed caused irreparable harm to our economy and nation, all because we listened to the WHO and it's highly inaccurate predictions, which we also now know came STRAIGHT FROM CHINA, as the WHO is nothing more than a PROPAGANDA ARM for China. This entire escapade could surely have been intended to do great harm to the United States.

So this begs the question: did China intend harm, or was it an inadvertent and accidental release of a virus ? If China intended harm, this needs to be established ... not by just assuming it, but by gathering evidence which shows that they intended what occurred.

Sheer scientific reality defies your first paragraph. We don't fully understand Covid-19, but certain facts are well established. Such as, how long the virus survives as a viable organism. Such as, what measures will prevent its spread.

Covid-19 is not susceptible to the rules and regulations embodied in the US Constitution. It has no capacity to 'respect' anything to do with it. If you stood in a room with a person known to be infected, and you also stood in that room, with the Constitution document held in your hands ... that document would do PRECISELY NOTHING to protect you from infection.

There is dogma, and then, there's realism. Covid-19 can only be defeated from the total application of that realism. We get to know how to starve Covid of opportunities to infect. We know it can only live for so long, before replicating in another infected person. So, why not apply a solution that will WORK, against the virus ?? Starve it of replication opportunities. Kill it, before it kills YOU.

You could go the dogmaa route. In which case ... if the solution doesn't allow for liberty, you could instead choose death.

But I repeat an earlier point. I don't think those who drafted your Constitution ever intended it to be the basis for mass suicide.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I don't think those who drafted your Constitution ever intended it to be the basis for mass suicide.
That's just simply hyperbole my friend.

[Drummond]

I don't have any say in how Britain rules itself, I have no skin in that game. When there were colonies, different times. For anyone that remembers, England felt the colonists didn't have the same rights as Englishmen, so it was decided to become different, Americans.

The past is the past. It should stay there.

Times move on. Conditions change, realities change. One adapts, I suggest, or one perishes.

The dinosaurs couldn't adapt to a changing environment. It led to nothing useful for them. Their failure to adapt made them extinct.

Covid-19 is today's reality. The Founders of your country didn't face the reality of Covid-19, and so far as I know, included nothing in your Constitution that even began to address any such reality. The Constitution addressed that reality which your founders envisioned, and ONLY that.

Nothing more.

This is a reality needing to be faced. Will I see that happen ?

Or will your Georgian Governor succeed in killing thousands of people, who'd otherwise have lived, if ONLY that Governor had faced REALITY ?

[Hot Dogger]

Where's all the "great restaurants?"

Madison is first and foremost a college town. The UW campus takes up a large swath of downtown Madison and it's not far from the capitol building, where I think a lot of the newly little indoctrinated leftist naturally migrate to when they graduate with their degree in LIBERAL ARTS.

But Madison is also a lake town, with the capitol sitting on an isthmus between two lakes, much of Madison's recreation centers around the lakes. You'll find a boat parked in a lot of the area's driveways and yards.

You don't like the restaurants? They've like a dozen Indian restaurants, love curry. Then there's that Ecuadorean place near downtown, and a Jamaican place on the east side in that hippie neighborhood, a great town for ethnic food. And I think Harold's Chicken Shack is still there, over by the Woodman's on Gammon. I go to the VA hospital there sometimes, I try to eat at a different place each time I'm out there. I think it's a great city where the violent crime has exploded, especially with home invasions. And I'm a real homebody, so I'd love to live there and get in some target practice.

- Ivan Sarcasmov

[Drummond]

That's just simply hyperbole my friend.

No. It's the truth.

Of course, if you think that they DID intend it to be a form of suicide note, show me I'm wrong !!

Otherwise ... why, effectively, turn it into one ?

American lives, I suggest, MATTER. Do you not agree ?

Why not save them ?

[jimnyc]

Honoring and protecting our constitutional rights = mass suicide?

Doesn't suicide require the assistance of the person wanting to die? Does our rights automatically equate to stupidity? Do rights mean folks refuse masks, disinfectants, gloves...? While NY is bad, I've used all that and I'm fine. I enjoy my rights, but also use common sense and protection.

[Drummond]

You don't like the restaurants? They've like a dozen Indian restaurants, love curry. Then there's that Ecuadorean place near downtown, and a Jamaican place on the east side in that hippie neighborhood, a great town for ethnic food. And I think Harold's Chicken Shack is still there, over by the Woodman's on Gammon. I go to the VA hospital there sometimes, I try to eat at a different place each time I'm out there. I think it's a great city where the violent crime has exploded, especially with home invasions. And I'm a real homebody, so I'd love to live there and get in some target practice.

- Ivan Sarcasmov

Restaurants are great. I've had some very happy times in them .. especially when the food's of top notch quality.

But unfortunately ... the chances are significantly great that today's restaurants will serve a side-order of Covid-19 as a part of the dining experience.

I am not inclined to visit such establishments.

Happily, my caring Government has ensured that I cannot choose to do so.

So, I get to live.

I think that's a good thing.

[Drummond]

Honoring and protecting our constitutional rights = mass suicide?

Doesn't suicide require the assistance of the person wanting to die? Does our rights automatically equate to stupidity? Do rights mean folks refuse masks, disinfectants, gloves...? While NY is bad, I've used all that and I'm fine. I enjoy my rights, but also use common sense and protection.

Precisely. REALISM figures strongly in all that.

Someone insisting upon applying 'rights' in such a way that realism is far removed from the applicaation of those rights, acts in a way that invites realism to bite back.

The organism doing the biting would be Covid-19.

The individual allowing the biting back would be an idiot - and a suicidal one - since it could have easily been avoided, IF the choice had been exercised to do so.

[Kathianne]

The past is the past. It should stay there.

Times move on. Conditions change, realities change. One adapts, I suggest, or one perishes.

The dinosaurs couldn't adapt to a changing environment. It led to nothing useful for them. Their failure to adapt made them extinct.

Covid-19 is today's reality. The Founders of your country didn't face the reslity of Covid-19, and so far as I know, included nothing in your Constitution that even began to address any such reality. The Constitution addressed that reality which your founders envisioned, and ONLY that.

Nothing more.

This is a reality needing to be faced. Will I see that happen ?

Or will your Georgian Governor succeed in killing thousands of people, who'd otherwise have lived, if ONLY that Governor had faced REALITY ?

I could be wrong, but don't think one of us in GA and can claim that governor for our own. Jim already eluded to the fact that you know as much as you do, BECAUSE he is being ridiculed far and wide for his weird opening. Trump even, probably the #1 fan about 'liberating' states, has chastised the governor, twice.

There is some ground between being 'shut down' and 'opened for most businesses.' It's going to vary from state-to-state; city v rural; county-to-county.

You have said that UK may stay locked down until a vaccine? What if there isn't one possible, a real possibility? Then what?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

You don't like the restaurants? They've like a dozen Indian restaurants, love curry. Then there's that Ecuadorean place near downtown, and a Jamaican place on the east side in that hippie neighborhood, a great town for ethnic food. And I think Harold's Chicken Shack is still there, over by the Woodman's on Gammon. I go to the VA hospital there sometimes, I try to eat at a different place each time I'm out there. I think it's a great city where the violent crime has exploded, especially with home invasions. And I'm a real homebody, so I'd love to live there and get in some target practice.

- Ivan Sarcasmov
To tell ya the truth, even though I know Madison like the back of my hand, it's been many decades since I frequented the place. I avoid Madison like... COVID-19.

I go to the West Side VA Clinic myself. I head in Mineral Point Road, hit the clinic, and then back otta town as fast as I can without getting a ticket. I hate Madison. I hate cities, but especially Madison. It's a leftist toilet.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

No. It's the truth.
No, it's not. We have states that have had less than 50 deaths. We have states that never closed down.

The vast majority of deaths in America are from the big cities where people are packed in together like sardines, but America has one helluva lot of other space in this great nation that's wide open.

I understand that someone born and raised in a country where it's been inhabited and built up for thousands of years and has very little open space, and having never been to America and seen how large this nation is, it may be a little hard to grasp that what might be good policy for NYC is NOT going to be good policy for our wide open states like N and S Dakota, or Wyoming, or Montana, etc, where there's been virtually nothing as far as deaths from COVID. There's been more people die from the Flu in those states than COVID.

So obviously, saying that Americans going about their lives equates to MASS SUICIDE is just pure hyperbole.

[jimnyc]

Precisely. REALISM figures strongly in all that.

Someone insisting upon applying 'rights' in such a way that realism is far removed from the applicaation of those rights, acts in a way that invites realism to bite back.

The organism doing the biting would be Covid-19.

The individual allowing the biting back would be an idiot - and a suicidal one - since it could have easily been avoided, IF the choice had been exercised to do so.

Perhaps folks that give up all rights to the government and allow them to dictate their lives = house arrest and all other kinds of losses of freedoms - and not even knowing it much as it's what one is born into and grew up with.

I'll take my chances with common sense and protection against these mass suicides - as opposed to lack of rights and government ruling my life, any day of the week. We as Americans have faced many more tough times than this and survived just fine. The government works FOR us, not to dictate what we can and cannot do. And other places, it's the opposite. And any other day of the week, people scratch and die trying to come here for our freedoms. They don't do that to go from a place that already dictates your life into another.

Why anyone would believe that the government should have the RIGHT to determine their RIGHTS is totally beyond me and blows my mind.

[Hot Dogger]

To tell ya the truth, even though I know Madison like the back of my hand, it's been many decades since I frequented the place. I avoid Madison like... COVID-19.

I go to the West Side VA Clinic myself. I head in Mineral Point Road, hit the clinic, and then back otta town as fast as I can without getting a ticket. I hate Madison. I hate cities, but especially Madison. It's a leftist toilet.

Do you live out by Mineral Point? I like Crazy Frank's Flea Market, got a great old Midwest Togs jacket and Frye boots for $50. Yeah, don't drive too fast, I got ticket on 151 outside of Plateville one time. I told the cop I was only doing 80, so he was nice and wrote me up for 79. Cost $250 those bastards. I was going to go to court with the defense that it was pitch black out, the trooper was on a hill, and there was an airport between myself and the trooper. So my defense was the radar gun was pointed at a landing airplane not me. And if that failed I was going to plead insanity.

[Drummond]

I could be wrong, but don't think one of us in GA and can claim that governor for our own. Jim already eluded to the fact that you know as much as you do, BECAUSE he is being ridiculed far and wide for his weird opening. Trump even, probably the #1 fan about 'liberating' states, has chastised the governor, twice.

Indeed ... and, Trump was right to chastise him. That Governor is being criminally irresponsible.

I'm sure the bereaved who see loved ones die, thanks to his premature opening-up of businesses, will have far stronger language to offer him than 'criminally irresponsible'.


There is some ground between being 'shut down' and 'opened for most businesses.' It's going to vary from state-to-state; city v rural; county-to-county.

Why ?

Covid-19 isn't going to differentiate. Given the chance to spread, IT WILL. There might be a certain time-lag involved .. the smaller the chance to spread the virus, the longer it's likely to take to happen (though no delay is guaranteed !) ... but ... happen, it eventually will.

The point, surely (!!) is to make sure NO SUCH CHANCE EXISTS.


You have said that UK may stay locked down until a vaccine? What if there isn't one possible, a real possibility? Then what?

What, indeed.

This is a question that's beginning to plague (unfortunate choice of word ?) our politicians. We see no easy way of escaping the lockdown !

As yet, they have one strategy, this being to see what happens in those countries which do relax their lockdowns. If it's generally seen that all goes well in those countries, then I'm guessing we'll follow suit.

However, we also think that a phased release from lockdown will be necessary. The 2-metre distancing rule will no doubt have to be observed, lockdown or no lockdown. This would prove highly problematic for some businesses ... hairdressers, barbers, tattooists, dentists, etc.

We recognise that danger, and it concerns us. Not so that nutter of a Governor in Georgia, though.

He really, badly, needs psychiatric evaluation at absolute minimum, in my view.

And of course ... what if there's a second wave, this coming winter ? What if it's a seasonal disease ? What if it mutates ???

Has that governor from Georgia given a nanosecond's thought to any of that ?

I somehow doubt it.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Do you live out by Mineral Point? I like Crazy Frank's Flea Market, got a great old Midwest Togs jacket and Frye boots for $50. Yeah, don't drive too fast, I got ticket on 151 outside of Plateville one time. I told the cop I was only doing 80, so he was nice and wrote me up for 79. Cost $250 those bastards. I was going to go to court with the defense that it was pitch black out, the trooper was on a hill, and there was an airport between myself and the trooper. So my defense was the radar gun was pointed at a landing airplane not me. And if that failed I was going to plead insanity.
I live in the most NE town in Grant Co way up at the tip. Mineral Point isn't too far away, very cool little town. There's a couple good restaurants there. Good place to get a Pasty, but get it with gravy. I think they're awful dry without.

The only reason I ever head south is usually to go to the Menard's in Platteville.

Yeah 151 is a race track. Everybody is doing 80 or better.

[Kathianne]

Indeed ... and, Trump was right to chastise him. That Governor is being criminally irresponsible.

I'm sure the bereaved who see loved ones die, thanks to his premature opening-up of businesses, will have far stronger language to offer him than 'criminally irresponsible'.



Why ?

Covid-19 isn't going to differentiate. Given the chance to spread, IT WILL. There might be a certain time-lag involved .. the smaller the chance to spread the virus, the longer it's likely to take to happen (though no delay is guaranteed !) ... but ... happen, it eventually will.

The point, surely (!!) is to make sure NO SUCH CHANCE EXISTS.



What, indeed.

This is a question that's beginning to plague (unfortunate choice of word ?) our politicians. We see no easy way of escaping the lockdown !

As yet, they have one strategy, this being to see what happens in those countries which do relax their lockdowns. If it's generally seen that all goes well in those countries, then I'm guessing we'll follow suit.

However, we also think that a phased release from lockdown will be necessary. The 2-metre distancing rule will no doubt have to be observed, lockdown or no lockdown. This would prove highly problematic for some businesses ... hairdressers, barbers, tattooists, dentists, etc.

We recognise that danger, and it concerns us. Not so that nutter of a Governor in Georgia, though.

He really, badly, needs psychiatric evaluation at absolute minimum, in my view.

And of course ... what if there's a second wave, this coming winter ? What if it's a seasonal disease ? What if it mutates ???

Has that governor from Georgia given a nanosecond's thought to any of that ?

I somehow doubt it.

Look, the way of the world is that each country will do what they think best. Britain thought, and you bought fully into the 'scientific' herd immunity concept. UK changed based on human decency, you went with that too. We just went there first. Sweden chose that route from get go, we'll see how that plays out.

Now however, there has been time for nearly all to learn about washing hands properly, cough/sneeze into hankie/elbow; wear a mask for your own sake and others; stay out of crowds-maintain a 6' minimum-though I'm more comfortable with 10-12'. For most of the country not a problem. Even schools and businesses are working on either staggered schedules or every other day schedules to cut numbers in half. Some may have to go to every third day for the same.

Sure there are idiots, apparently the governor of GA being one of them. IF the people go full out for him, that will be their choice. NO ONE can be compelled to go to salons, sit down restaurants, etc.

In my personal opinion, it would be a good idea for the president to find another way to connect with his core base, as the daily corona updates are leading to a distrust of what he says, including some dangerous, off-the-cuff speaking:

https://www.rb.com/media/news/2020/april/improper-use-of-disinfectants/


Improper use of DisinfectantsDue to recent speculation and social media activity, RB (the makers of Lysol and Dettol) has been asked whether internal administration of disinfectants may be appropriate for investigation or use as a treatment for coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2).
As a global leader in health and hygiene products, we must be clear that under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body (through injection, ingestion or any other route). As with all products, our disinfectant and hygiene products should only be used as intended and in line with usage guidelines. Please read the label and safety information.
We have a responsibility in providing consumers with access to accurate, up-to-date information as advised by leading public health experts. For this and other myth-busting facts, please visit Covid-19facts.com (https://www.covid-19facts.com/).
For more information on our response to COVID-19, visit this link: Coronavirus information (https://www.rb.com/about-us/coronavirus-information/)

[jimnyc]

Criminally irresponsible for ensuring the COTUS rights of citizens? I can almost understand disagreeing and/or not understanding, but claiming it's somehow criminal is too far. These are OUR RIGHTS we are talking about here. He can restore them - it's not him telling anyone at all to be irresponsible, to not use common sense, to still use protections and use social distancing, perhaps work from home and only a portion going in for now... so many things to help, without taking our rights away. But criminal, for standing up for rights?

I don't think it will EVER be criminal for anyone to honor or extend rights. In fact, there are lawsuits and more coming of just the opposite. Proceedings against folks denying rights.

[Drummond]

Perhaps folks that give up all rights to the government and allow them to dictate their lives = house arrest and all other kinds of losses of freedoms - and not even knowing it much as it's what one is born into and grew up with.

I'll take my chances with common sense and protection against these mass suicides - as opposed to lack of rights and government ruling my life, any day of the week. We as Americans have faced many more tough times than this and survived just fine. The government works FOR us, not to dictate what we can and cannot do. And other places, it's the opposite. And any other day of the week, people scratch and die trying to come here for our freedoms. They don't do that to go from a place that already dictates your life into another.

Why anyone would believe that the government should have the RIGHT to determine their RIGHTS is totally beyond me and blows my mind.

Yes, your Government works for you. Trump was working for you, in chastising the nutter in Georgia. Trump saw his relaxation of lockdown rules as harmful.

That's because IT IS.

Taking chances, is, by definition, 'chancy'. Do you have any reason to suppose that Covid-19 will choose not to infect, if it doesn't have anything to stop it ? Taking chances does by definition mean that the chance COULD exist of avoidable infection.

As for people flocking to America because they envy your freedoms ... maybe in past times, they did. Do you seriously not think that this is set to change ?

If it's seen that Americans' reverence for freedom and liberty can turn an area into an environment where, for the sake of liberty, lockdown rules are relaxed, and the chance of dying skyrockets ... do you think that regard for life won't kick in, in preference to choosing an increased chance of dying ?

I don't think that the governor of Georgia will have any problem, in future, with illegal immigration !!

[jimnyc]

Yes, your Government works for you. Trump was working for you, in chastising the nutter in Georgia. Trump saw his relaxation of lockdown rules as harmful.

And yet Trump agreed with him the day before. Then against. I don't know where his head is at with Georgia, but he didn't fully see it as harmful of course.

Trump has been one of the loudest cheerleaders for our rights, for reopening and for getting back to business, and letting companies, people and such take it from there.

[Kathianne]

Yes, your Government works for you. Trump was working for you, in chastising the nutter in Georgia. Trump saw his relaxation of lockdown rules as harmful.

That's because IT IS.

Taking chances, is, by definition, 'chancy'. Do you have any reason to suppose that Covid-19 will choose not to infect, if it doesn't have anything to stop it ? Taking chances does by definition mean that the chance COULD exist of avoidable infection.

As for people flocking to America because they envy your freedoms ... maybe in past times, they did. Do you seriously not think that this is set to change ?

If it's seen that Americans' reverence for freedom and liberty can turn an area into an environment where, for the sake of liberty, lockdown rules are relaxed, and the chance of dying skyrockets ... do you think that regard for life won't kick in, in preference to choosing an increased chance of dying ?

I don't think that the governor of Georgia will have any problem, in future, with illegal immigration !!

The President has been leading the 'opening' and encouraging marches on state capitals to 'liberate' the people. Things here are not the way you seem to see them. You should already recognize that by the reactions of people you are usually feeling connected with. You may be English conservative, but you're not American conservative-then again, I'm not either as currently defined.

[Kathianne]

Look, the way of the world is that each country will do what they think best. Britain thought, and you bought fully into the 'scientific' herd immunity concept. UK changed based on human decency, you went with that too. We just went there first. Sweden chose that route from get go, we'll see how that plays out.

Now however, there has been time for nearly all to learn about washing hands properly, cough/sneeze into hankie/elbow; wear a mask for your own sake and others; stay out of crowds-maintain a 6' minimum-though I'm more comfortable with 10-12'. For most of the country not a problem. Even schools and businesses are working on either staggered schedules or every other day schedules to cut numbers in half. Some may have to go to every third day for the same.

Sure there are idiots, apparently the governor of GA being one of them. IF the people go full out for him, that will be their choice. NO ONE can be compelled to go to salons, sit down restaurants, etc.

In my personal opinion, it would be a good idea for the president to find another way to connect with his core base, as the daily corona updates are leading to a distrust of what he says, including some dangerous, off-the-cuff speaking:

https://www.rb.com/media/news/2020/april/improper-use-of-disinfectants/

I do think the president has an inquiring mind, but it shouldn't be 'live' when he ruminates about what he just heard. It's stream of consciousness thinking, which I doubt he'd want presented to him as a 'boss' before or during politics. He's doing that with the American people, some of whom believe every word he utters was put there by god.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/media-erupt-over-trump-comments-on-disinfectant-heres-what-he-said

[Drummond]

On what the President said ... our Left immmediately hyped it up. James O'Brien said that Trump was recommending that people inject BLEACH into their veins. He then spent an inordinate time expressing his 'disgust' in loud and borderline profane terms. With the result that callers to his programme speculated that this SURELY marks the end of his Presidency.

Since then, Dettol (they manufacture disinfectant ... is Dettol known to you ? I'd guess YES, since why would they comment otherwise ?) ... have issued an 'advisory', to combat President Trump's contribution.


Look, the way of the world is that each country will do what they think best. Britain thought, and you bought fully into the 'scientific' herd immunity concept. UK changed based on human decency, you went with that too. We just went there first. Sweden chose that route from get go, we'll see how that plays out.

If a report I watched last night on the BBC is any judge, Sweden is not doing well. On the one hand, death rates are a lot lower than expected. On the other, their infection rates are multiples of those reported for neighbouring countries.

But time may determine how this goes. The lower the population density, the longer infections take to build up into appreciable numbers. Helsinki has an infection rate far larger than anywhere else in Sweden (just as London also knew a big infection total compared to the UK as a whole). London was weeks ahead of the rest of the UK. Helsinki no doubt is, too, compared with Sweden.

But in time, the truth will be known. We just have to wait longer to see what it is.


Now however, there has been time for nearly all to learn about washing hands properly, cough/sneeze into hankie/elbow; wear a mask for your own sake and others; stay out of crowds-maintain a 6' minimum-though I'm more comfortable with 10-12'. For most of the country not a problem. Even schools and businesses are working on either staggered schedules or every other day schedules to cut numbers in half. Some may have to go to every third day for the same.

Sure there are idiots, apparently the governor of GA being one of them. IF the people go full out for him, that will be their choice. NO ONE can be compelled to go to salons, sit down restaurants, etc.

Fair enough. However, there will always be people who'll be willing to be led. How many will acccept the Governor's lead ?

It only takes ONE such person to spark off an eventual epidemic. With what - AVOIDABLE - death toll resulting ?

How many people, originally, in Wuhan, did it take to create the eventual pandemic ? Maybe, fewer people than I have fingers and toes ? Perhaps ... that took just one party .. or one restaurant .... serving bat soup .....

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I think we're going to find that FAR, FAR more people have been infected than we ever imagined, and they're now immune.

And these lockdowns were NEVER intended to STOP the virus, but rather just SLOW IT DOWN. NOTHING we can do will STOP IT, POINT BLANK, WIPE IT OUT, not even a vaccine, because the virus is mutating. So we're going to be dealing with this from now on, and we can NOT just REMAIN LOCKED DOWN... we can't do it. So we're going to HAVE find a way to get back to work, period.

And what's the UK's economy going to look like if they stay locked down for months and months? Will the UK have anything left that even resembles an economy? Will the UK turn to the world bank looking for a bail out? Will it be worth it?

[Kathianne]

On what the President said ... our Left immmediately hyped it up. James O'Brien said that Trump was recommending that people inject BLEACH into their veins. He then spent an inordinate time expressing his 'disgust' in loud and borderline profane terms. With the result that callers to his programme speculated that this SURELY marks the end of his Presidency.

Since then, Dettol (they manufacture disinfectant ... is Dettol known to you ? I'd guess YES, since why would they comment otherwise ?) ... have issued an 'advisory', to combat President Trump's contribution.



If a report I watched last night on the BBC is any judge, Sweden is not doing well. On the one hand, death rates are a lot lower than expected. On the other, their infection rates are multiples of those reported for neighbouring countries.

But time may determine how this goes. The lower the popultion density, the longer infections take to build up into appreciable numbers. Helsinki has an infection rate far larger than anywhere else in Sweden (just as London also knew a big infection total). London was weeks ahead of the rest of the UK. Helsinki no doubt is, too, compared with Sweden.

But in time, the truth will be known. We just have to wait longer to see what it is.



Fair enough. However, there will always be people who'll be willing to be led. How many will acccept the Governor's lead ?

It only takes ONE such person to spark off an eventual epidemic. With what - AVOIDABLE - death toll resulting ?

How many people, originally, in Wuhan, did it take to create the eventual pandemic ? Maybe, fewer people than I have fingers and toes ? Perhaps ... that took just one party .. or one restaurant .... serving bat soup .....

No matter how Draconian your laws may be enforced, you too are always vulnerable to those who will not stay away from others, i.e., follow the rules.

[Hot Dogger]

One of the founders, Benjamin Rush, was a physician who wanted an amendment dealing specifically with our rights and government in relation to medical issues and our bodies. He was a great Christian man.

From the article linked below:

Dr. Rush and the Yellow Fever Plague

During the Yellow Fever pandemic in Philadelphia in 1793, Rush insisted on staying in the city while others were fleeing. At that time, Philadelphia was the nation’s capital, and President and Mrs. Washington left town along with many others fleeing the disease. But many could not flee, and nearly one-tenth of the city’s population died. The plague lasted for 100 days. At that time, Philadelphia was the largest city in the country with a population of 50,000. At least 20,000 people fled as panic spread through the streets. Of the 30,000 that remained, at least 5,000 perished.

Dr. Rush wrote: "Fear and terror now sat upon every countenance. The disease appeared in many parts of the town, remote from the spot where it originated…. This set the city in motion. The streets and road leading from the city were crowded with families flying in every direction. Business began to languish…. [The city streets] became a desert…. In walking, few persons were met…. The hearse alone kept up the remembrance of the noise of carriages or carts in the streets."

Calling together his medical students, he told them:

"As for myself, I am determined to remain. I may fall a victim to the epidemic, and so may you, gentlemen. But I prefer since I am placed here by Divine Providence, to fall in performing my duty, if such must be the consequence of staying upon the ground, then to secure my life by fleeing from the post of duty allotted in the Providence of God. I will remain, if I remain alone."

Dr. Rush survived the Yellow Fever crisis, but years later he succumbed to typhus fever and died at the age of 67.

https://www.robertjmorgan.com/uncategorized/dr-benjamin-rush-our-forgotten-founding-father/

[Drummond]

I think we're going to find that FAR, FAR more people have been infected than we ever imagined, and they're now immune.

We're beginning to find otherwise. Current thinking is that having Covid-19 doesn't guarantee immunity.. If cases reported out of South Korea are anything to go by, some will fail to maintain immunity.


And these lockdowns were NEVER intended to STOP the virus, but rather just SLOW IT DOWN. NOTHING we can do will STOP IT, POINT BLANK, WIPE IT OUT, not even a vaccine, because the virus is mutating.

You're right about the lockdown being instituted to just slow down the virus's spread. But, WHY ? Because our people were realistic enough to know that it only takes one person to break lockdown rules, to invalidate their otherwise foolproof capacity to stop spreads happening.

If every single person absolutely obeyed lockdown rules, if the virus was starved of a means to spread ... then, how could it ?

But, no. People like their (here's that word again) LIBERTY. So, the virus spreads.

How many lives have been sacrificed already, I wonder, purely and simply because people love their liberty ? Instead of doing the commonsense thing, and, for a short while, just obeying, absolutely without exception, lockdown rules ??

Would you care to offer an estimate ?


So we're going to be dealing with this from now on, and we can NOT just REMAIN LOCKED DOWN... we can't do it. So we're going to HAVE find a way to get back to work, period.

Then you're just going to HAVE to accept the deaths and suffering that follows.


And what's the UK's economy going to look like if they stay locked down for months and months? Will the UK have anything left that even resembles an economy? Will the UK turn to the world bank looking for a bail out? Will it be worth it?

We will be in a mess. Nobody doubts it. But our thinking is that it IS worth it. People WILL survive, who'd not have done so otherwise.

Very possibly I will be one of those people who do, precisely BECAUSE our prolonged lockdown will have been in place.

And, yes. I prefer to live, rather than die a miserable death before my time, thanks very much !!

[Drummond]

No matter how Draconian your laws may be enforced, you too are always vulnerable to those who will not stay away from others, i.e., follow the rules.

I can't help but agree.

If everyone, without any exceptions at all, could rigorously observe the rules they're given, then we'd have wiped out the virus, here, by now. But, no. Some thoughtless idiot, somehow, somewhere, will think that rules don't apply to them.

So, people suffer. People die. Because people will NOT let sheer commonsense govern them.

[Kathianne]

I can't help but agree.

If everyone, without any exceptions at all, could rigorously observe the rules they're given, then we'd have wiped out the virus, here, by now. But, no. Some thoughtless idiot, somehow, somewhere, will think that rules don't apply to them.

So, people suffer. People die. Because people will NOT let sheer commonsense govern them.

and if men were angels, government would not be necessary. It's a give and take.

[Drummond]

and if men were angels, government would not be necessary. It's a give and take.

Indeed so !!

Men aren't angels. Therefore, we need Government to rule us. Quite.

Of course, if that rule ceases to have an effect .. what, instead, do you risk ?

Lack of angelic disposition + commonsense discipline, e.g via Government or some other responsible authority = HELL.

But, of course.

[Kathianne]

Indeed so !!

Men aren't angels. Therefore, we need Government to rule us. Quite.

Of course, if that rule ceases to have an effect .. what, instead, do you risk ?

Lack of angelic disposition + commonsense discipline, e.g via Government or some other responsible authority = HELL.

But, of course.

I'd say that while the average American won't go back to a state of nature, we would not join in Hobbes alternative either.

So, we'll take government and use the Constitution to keep the government in check. You are now favoring keeping the common citizen in check.

So, I like our ability to choose. If some idiots want to chance a sit down restaurant and catch a movie in Atlanta, good for them. IF I lived in Atlanta right this minute, I'd choose to stay home. I agree with you on the likelihood of resurgence, but it will be dealt with. With all your draconian continuation, the same can happen there next week; the month after; 6 months from now and what if there is still no vaccine?

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Men aren't angels. Therefore, we need Government to rule us. Quite.

Just... no... not even.

[jimnyc]

Just... no... not even.

Same thought here. We DO NOT need the government to rule us. They WORK FOR US, we vote them in to represent us. They all honor the constitution and honor their constituents. They each have their various purposes they serve in congress and such, and roles and responsibilities. But no way in hell is it ANYWHERE in there to "rule us". That's what dictators do, and a lot of socialism and commie action going on there!

Their job is to set and administer policies, which should be based on the constitution/bill of rights. If anything, they should be in there and we rule them, not the other way around. Their job is to take care of our citizens. To ensure all of these things, and to ensure our freedom of speech, and 2nd amendment rights & our due process, not the other way around.

[Drummond]

I'd say that while the average American won't go back to a state of nature, we would not join in Hobbes alternative either.

So, we'll take government and use the Constitution to keep the government in check. You are now favoring keeping the common citizen in check.

I favour keeping Covid-19 in check !

I see that as eminently reasonable, considering what the alternative is.


So, I like our ability to choose. If some idiots want to chance a sit down restaurant and catch a movie in Atlanta, good for them.

Possibly good for them. One may be infected, the other, not. Before the evening ended, the one may have infected the other.

AVOIDABLY SO.

What about the others in that restaurant ?

What about the others in the cinema ?

Will what those idiots do to all those other people, matter ?

Or, 'doesn't it matter' ? Does LIBERTY overrule everyone else's freedom to so much as live a healthy life ?


IF I lived in Atlanta right this minute, I'd choose to stay home. I agree with you on the likelihood of resurgence, but it will be dealt with. With all your draconian continuation, the same can happen there next week; the month after; 6 months from now and what if there is still no vaccine?

All that you describe could be dealt with, quickly, simply. People OBEY their Government, without exception.

But this won't happen. So, we suffer. Again and again.

[Drummond]

Same thought here. We DO NOT need the government to rule us. They WORK FOR US, we vote them in to represent us. They all honor the constitution and honor their constituents. They each have their various purposes they serve in congress and such, and roles and responsibilities. But no way in hell is it ANYWHERE in there to "rule us". That's what dictators do, and a lot of socialism and commie action going on there!

Their job is to set and administer policies, which should be based on the constitution/bill of rights. If anything, they should be in there and we rule them, not the other way around. Their job is to take care of our citizens. To ensure all of these things, and to ensure our freedom of speech, and 2nd amendment rights & our due process, not the other way around.

In the model you're describing, what stops anarchy from breaking out ?

If the flow of authority is always People >> Governmment ... and Government has no reciprocal ability to ... I dunno ... actually, GOVERN ... then, what's the point of it ?

I can only say to all this that, yes, it encourages the irresponsible lunacy we saw from the Georgian Governor. Jim, Covid-19 doesn't give a damn about 'sacrosanct American values'. It WILL spread, if allowed to.

OK, then.

I can only say that America is in for one VERY hefty death toll. How much will be needless ?

But, it'll happen.

I wish that commonsense could be employed to avert those deaths. I wish Americans were willing to adapt to their circumstances. But, they're not.

So, those deaths are chosen to occur. They could be avoided. But, they won't be.

[Kathianne]

and this IS where we differ, as a people, as conservatives.


I favour keeping Covid-19 in check !

I see that as eminently reasonable, considering what the alternative is.



Possibly good for them. One may be infected, the other, not. Before the evening ended, the one may have infected the other.

AVOIDABLY SO. choice to be there.


What about the others in that restaurant ? Choice to be there, they could have made the same choice as myself.


What about the others in the cinema ? I know, it's a theme: Their choice. They could have chosen different.


Will what those idiots do to all those other people, matter ? you're just seeing the 'infected' as the problem, I put it on choices. That there's a cliff over a breathtaking pool of water that may be inviting, it's my choice whether or not I jump.


Or, 'doesn't it matter' ? Does LIBERTY overrule everyone else's freedom to so much as live a healthy life ?



All that you describe could be dealt with, quickly, simply. People OBEY their Government, without exception.

But this won't happen. So, we suffer. Again and again. As I said in opening, these is where a self-described conservative in UK, differs with self-identified conservatives in US. We'd never say, "Obey their government." The addition of 'without exception,' actually gives me the creeps.

We agree with many things, you will never understand our mindset regarding these issues, I KNOW I don't understand your position. I respect your right to feel we're foolish, just like I respect ours to think you're missing a lot.

[jimnyc]

and this IS where we differ, as a people, as conservatives.

choice to be there. Choice to be there, they could have made the same choice as myself. I know, it's a theme: Their choice. They could have chosen different. you're just seeing the 'infected' as the problem, I put it on choices. That there's a cliff over a breathtaking pool of water that may be inviting, it's my choice whether or not I jump. As I said in opening, these is where a self-described conservative in UK, differs with self-identified conservatives in US. We'd never say, "Obey their government." The addition of 'without exception,' actually gives me the creeps.

We agree with many things, you will never understand our mindset regarding these issues, I KNOW I don't understand your position. I respect your right to feel we're foolish, just like I respect ours to think you're missing a lot.

And differ we do!

Unalienable rights doesn't mean unalienable rights unless the government decides otherwise. :rolleyes:

We all have choices thanks to our COTUS. We have rights. The government has many limitations. We as Americans have RIGHTS and CHOICES, that others for whatever reason see as limitations and unhealthy. :dunno:

One is free to disagree. Folks here are free to disagree. Folks here can stay closed no matter what others do. They have their rights and choices as well. We've done fairly well in 200+ years of utilizing those God given rights. And what folks went through JUST to get that started is unbelievable. And SO SO much blood has been spilled to preserve all of those rights and freedoms. I will be damned if the government will rule us.

No thanks, I'll keep my rights. I'll fight for them. I'll protest for them. I would die for them. And while we have them, I will use common sense. I will use all recommended precautions. I will social distance from others. For now, I wear gloves and a mask. I disinfect everywhere I go, and wash like a madman when I get home. Having all of my rights and doing all of that can coexist.

And if others still see it as suicide, criminal or stupid, so be it. I will enjoy the rights and the most free country as I have all along. And if they prefer to be ruled by someone or have government take freedoms away from them and not allow for them to make their own decisions in life, so be that too. NOT the same, but for comparison, I watched Jafar and Abso absolutely love and speak out for Islam and all of the orders, laws and even shariah. So be it I suppose, no skin off my back if they enjoy that way of life.

[Abbey Marie]

For those who espouse the idea that it’s fine if anyone wants to socialize and take their chances, it’s not nearly that simple. Their behavior can and likely will affect/infect others with the virus. I’m all for freedom of choice, but there need to be some boundaries since we live in society together. Many if not most of our laws evolved because our behavior affects others.

Just as I draw the freedom of choice line at abortion, because it is deadly to another, I also draw it at the unfettered freedom to likely infect others with a deadly virus.

[Kathianne]

For those who espouse the idea that it’s fine if anyone wants to socialize and take their chances, it’s not nearly that simple. Their behavior can and likely will affect others with the virus. I’m all for freedom of choice, but there need to be some boundaries since we live in society together. Many if not most of our laws evolved because our behavior affects others.

Just as I draw the freedom of choice line at abortion, because it is deadly to another, I also draw it at the freedom to infect others with a deadly virus.

It's a fine line, I agree with you. Being of the age I am there are risks. Someone with more health issues, they have even more risks and their concerns are real.

Just got off the phone with my brother. His wife is extremely compromised: her thyroid has been removed, she has lupus, and in January she was diagnosed with a tuberculosis type infection. She's been self-isolated with her daughter's family down in FL, on an island since January, until a week or so ago. It took my brother over a month to get tested and total isolated from others until he could clear to go get her. She's home now. He works pretty much alone, walking parks and golf course, checking empty buildings. He wears mask, gloves, cap and doctor's coat over his own clothes. He removes all of his outer clothing before getting in the truck to go home-clothes sprayed and put in plastic bag. Truck sprayed with Lysol. Removes shoes outside, sprays them. Goes in, put all clothes into washer immediately and then takes a shower-before he goes into the main part of the house. (They have shower off of laundry room).

I doubt there is much more anyone could do to keep safe. Her chances of getting this though still seem up there, though certainly less than others-they are lucky. I don't think there is enough that can be done anywhere though to 'keep her without risk.'

We're going to have to figure out the best ways, given our circumstances. Inevitably it comes down to our choices.

[Black Diamond]

For those who espouse the idea that it’s fine if anyone wants to socialize and take their chances, it’s not nearly that simple. Their behavior can and likely will affect others with the virus. I’m all for freedom one choice, but there need to be some boundaries since we live in society together. Many if not most of our laws evolved because our behavior affects others.

Just as I draw the freedom of choice line at abortion, because it is deadly to another, I also draw it at the freedom to infect others with a deadly virus.

Well said and interesting Whitmer is being the most draconian on the virus but abortion doctors are essential

[SassyLady]

Indeed so !!

Men aren't angels. Therefore, we need Government to rule us.

Drummon .... you've got to be kidding me!!!

In this day and age people still think they need to be "ruled"?!

A true American will never want to be ruled .... by an individual or a government.

[SassyLady]

Choice to be there, they could have made the same choice as myself. I know, it's a theme: Their choice.

:clap::clap:




We'd never say, "Obey their government." The addition of 'without exception,' actually gives me the creeps.

Me too!!

[Kathianne]

Drummon .... you've got to be kidding me!!!

In this day and age people still think they need to be "ruled"?!

A true American will never want to be ruled .... by an individual or a government.

He and I went through this with Trump's declaration that 'he does have the power as President to open up the states.' I explained why he didn't have this power, (which 3 days later Trump reiterated), while Drummond insisted he should have that power.

He's not American, we forget that it was a system never before used as we have, likely still not used the same way anywhere else. He can't understand, just like we have a difficult time with his take on the Constitution. We're different countries, that sort of speak a common language.

[Black Diamond]

Drummon .... you've got to be kidding me!!!

In this day and age people still think they need to be "ruled"?!

A true American will never want to be ruled .... by an individual or a government.

I am wondering if we are seeing the burden of history here?? Years and years of monarchy vs what we have??

[Kathianne]

I am wondering if we are seeing the burden of history here?? Years and years of monarchy vs what we have??

Indeed. It took nearly 100 years for the colonists to even consider they might be a bit different than their 'countrymen.' Then it took just just a decade between fighting a war with England against France to turn totally against the whole idea of king. There just came a breaking point. It was a new world that demanded a new way. Luckily the right men were there before, during, and after the war.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Well said and interesting Whitmer is being the most draconian on the virus but abortion doctors are essential
Yes, you're free to get an abortion and buy weed and booze, but don't you dare buy any seeds to plant a garden to feed yourself or drive to church and sit in the parking lot in your car.

There is SOOOOOO much more going on with this virus situation than simply, YOU EITHER STAY HOME AND BE A GOOD PERSON AND NOT KILL PEOPLE, or YOU GO OUTSIDE AND SPREAD THE VIRUS AND YOU'RE A THOUGHTLESS COLD BLOODED KILLER. That's where too many people are stuck, and I can only think that it's because of all the FEAR MONGERING and PANIC that has been rammed down everyone's throat by the chinese propaganda wing WHO, and all these highly inaccurate and speculative MODELS we've been subjected to.

I think people are getting a little WEIRDED OUT by sitting at home isolating for so long, watching the news, having all this CRAP rolling around in their head and not being able to do anything else to get their mind off it. Well get out of the house, go for a walk, go for a drive, do something, just stop vegetating in the house thinking you're going to die if you go outside. People should go outside, get some fresh air and do something to get their mind off this virus for awhile. Outside is actually good for you anyway, since direct sunlight significantly kills the virus. The UV rays kill it within seconds/minutes, as does higher temps.

[Black Diamond]

Yes, you're free to get an abortion and buy weed and booze, but don't you dare buy any seeds to plant a garden to feed yourself or drive to church and sit in the parking lot in your car.

There is SOOOOOO much more going on with this virus situation than simply, YOU EITHER STAY HOME AND BE A GOOD PERSON AND NOT KILL PEOPLE, or YOU GO OUTSIDE AND SPREAD THE VIRUS AND YOU'RE A THOUGHTLESS COLD BLOODED KILLER. That's where too many people are stuck, and I can only think that's it's because of all the FEAR MONGERING and PANIC that has been rammed down everyone's throat by the chinese propaganda wing WHO, and all these highly inaccurate and speculative MODELS we've been subjected to.

I think people are getting a little WEIRDED OUT by sitting at home isolating for so long, watching the news, having all this CRAP rolling around in their head and not being able to do anything else to get their mind off it. Well get out of the house, go for a walk, go for a drive, do something, just stop vegetating in the house thinking you're going to die if you go outside. People should go outside, get some fresh air and do something to get their mind of this virus for awhile. Outside is actually good for you anyway, since direct sunlight significantly kills the virus. The UV rays kill it within seconds/minutes, as does higher temps.

Yeah I have been running. I don't have cable so am not inundated with fear, speculation, and strife. We have Netflix and Amazon prime so we have been catching up on series

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Yeah I have been running. I don't have cable so am not inundated with fear, speculation, and strife. We have Netflix and Amazon prime so we have been catching up on series
I haven't had my TV on all day. I've been cranking the tunes and working in the shop on kitchen remodeling things.

I'm not going to let this crap run my life. If I catch it, I catch it, and I probably will sooner or later. Probably no way to avoid it no matter what steps are taken, and if I die, I die, simple as that. I'm not afraid of dying. Been pretty damn close a time or two already. But until then I'm not going to stop living because of fear. That's not living. You don't have a life if that's what you decide to do anyway. Might as well be locked up in prison.

[Abbey Marie]

Yes, you're free to get an abortion and buy weed and booze, but don't you dare buy any seeds to plant a garden to feed yourself or drive to church and sit in the parking lot in your car.

There is SOOOOOO much more going on with this virus situation than simply, YOU EITHER STAY HOME AND BE A GOOD PERSON AND NOT KILL PEOPLE, or YOU GO OUTSIDE AND SPREAD THE VIRUS AND YOU'RE A THOUGHTLESS COLD BLOODED KILLER. That's where too many people are stuck, and I can only think that it's because of all the FEAR MONGERING and PANIC that has been rammed down everyone's throat by the chinese propaganda wing WHO, and all these highly inaccurate and speculative MODELS we've been subjected to.

I think people are getting a little WEIRDED OUT by sitting at home isolating for so long, watching the news, having all this CRAP rolling around in their head and not being able to do anything else to get their mind off it. Well get out of the house, go for a walk, go for a drive, do something, just stop vegetating in the house thinking you're going to die if you go outside. People should go outside, get some fresh air and do something to get their mind off this virus for awhile. Outside is actually good for you anyway, since direct sunlight significantly kills the virus. The UV rays kill it within seconds/minutes, as does higher temps.

As the person who made the analogy between abortion and freedom to socialize anyhow we want, I will say that the hypocrisy of the pro-abortion folks has always been galling.

As for people being weirded out, I will speak only for myself. I am overall staying calm in the midst of this, especially considering my risks. I am not wallowing in the news. Other than here, I try to ignore most of it. I say try because sometimes it just pops up on feeds and on TV. I was nervous and down at first, but as I settled in to our new reality, and saw all the steps being taken to control the virus, I felt much better. Now with all the talk of opening everything back up, coupled with knowing how selfish and immature people will be, especially younger folks, the calm is teetering.

If anything weirds me out, it is the cavalier attitude that folks with no appreciable risk factors are taking. It seems selfish. And the idea that if you prioritize wanting to stay safe, you must not value freedom or the Constitution, is making me want to bang my head.

I tend to to stay quiet on such things here, because I think we are all frustrated and nervous for various reasons. It’s not the time to finger-point, at the President or at each other.

And I like everyone here. :cool:

[Kathianne]

As the person who made the analogy between abortion and freedom to socialize anyhow we want, I will say that the hypocrisy of the pro-abortion folks has always been galling.

As for people being weirded out, I will speak only for myself. I am overall staying calm in the midst of this, especially considering my risks. But it’s not because I am wallowing in the news. Other than here, I try to ignore most of it. I say try because sometimes it just pops up on feeds and on TV. I was nervous and down at first, but as I settled in to our new reality, and saw all the steps being taken to control the virus, I felt much better. Now with all the talk of opening everything back up, coupled with knowing how selfish and immature people will be, especially younger folks, the calm is teetering.

If anything weirds me out, it is the cavalier attitude that folks with no appreciable risk factors are taking. It seems selfish. And the idea that if you want to stay safe you must not value freedom or the Constitution, is making me want to bang my head.

I tend to to stay quiet on such things here, because I think we are all frustrated and nervous for various reasons. It’s not the time to finger-point, at the President or at each other.

And I like everyone here. :cool:

The hard part for myself, I see both sides. I certainly get why you would become nervous, it's warranted. I also understand people being concerned with taking care of their businesses and families.

I don't get the nonsense in not opening any state regarding things like restaurants, theaters, etc., without any phasing in and meeting benchmarks. But that is what is being rooted for. On that, I'm with Abbey.

I think all of this should be done much more gradually and with a checklist of things tagged off, so everyone would feel more comfortable.

[Abbey Marie]

Sounds like my beach resort of choice, Long Beach Island, NJ, will open the beaches with the requirement of social distancing. How they enforce that on a beautiful summer day will be interesting. Not to mention, NJ is in very bad shape right now.

[Kathianne]

Look, the way of the world is that each country will do what they think best. Britain thought, and you bought fully into the 'scientific' herd immunity concept. UK changed based on human decency, you went with that too. We just went there first. Sweden chose that route from get go, we'll see how that plays out.

Now however, there has been time for nearly all to learn about washing hands properly, cough/sneeze into hankie/elbow; wear a mask for your own sake and others; stay out of crowds-maintain a 6' minimum-though I'm more comfortable with 10-12'. For most of the country not a problem. Even schools and businesses are working on either staggered schedules or every other day schedules to cut numbers in half. Some may have to go to every third day for the same.

Sure there are idiots, apparently the governor of GA being one of them. IF the people go full out for him, that will be their choice. NO ONE can be compelled to go to salons, sit down restaurants, etc.

In my personal opinion, it would be a good idea for the president to find another way to connect with his core base, as the daily corona updates are leading to a distrust of what he says, including some dangerous, off-the-cuff speaking:

https://www.rb.com/media/news/2020/april/improper-use-of-disinfectants/

While speaking of Sweden, the news is not looking great, as Drummond pointed out:


https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-2/2020/04/24/number-cases-surge-swedish-officials-warn-bars-ignore-social-distancing-guidelines-will-closed/

As Number Of Cases Surge, Swedish Officials Warn Bars That Ignore Social Distancing Guidelines Will Be Closed
JOHN SEXTONPosted at 2:43 pm on April 24, 2020

Yesterday I pointed out that this has been a tough week for Swedish officials attempting to guide the country through the coronavirus crisis. After suggesting the curve was flattening last week, they were hit with two days in a row of the highest ever jumps in the number of deaths (185 on Tuesday and 172 on Wednesday). In addition, Thursday saw a big jump in the number of new cases (751). Today the news was even worse:

Likely because it has been such a bad week, some Swedish officials are now threatening to do the thing Sweden has thus far resisted doing: Shut down bars and restaurants:

...

At least so far that bet hasn’t been shown to be a mistake. The hospitals are still managing and the measures seem easier on the economy than a lockdown, though that doesn’t mean the economy will escape unscathed. Today Sweden’s Finance Minister Magdalena Andersson said she expects to see a big drop in annual GDP:


“If were were to do an update of annual GDP today, the judgement is that we would land somewhere in the middle of … -4.2 and -10%,” Andersson told reporters at a news conference. The government gave a base-case and more negative case scenario in its Spring budget on Apri1 15.


The only thing we can do now is wait and see. As I said above, you can expect the numbers to drop this weekend. The real test will come next Tuesday and Wednesday when the numbers usually pick back up to account for cases not reported over the weekend. If the numbers are the same as this week or worse, the Swedish approach will likely change.

[SassyLady]

I thank God I live where I do. Four acres on edge of national park. I'm outside everyday. Trimmed up 4 trees yesterday on the property. Today I'm suffering severe allergies. Stirred up lots of pollen. So, no virus, but miserable anyway!

[Kathianne]

I thank God I live where I do. Four acres on edge of national park. I'm outside everyday. Trimmed up 4 trees yesterday on the property. Today I'm suffering severe allergies. Stirred up lots of pollen. So, no virus, but miserable anyway!
Feel better! You live in one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. I am thankful for my balcony! I get outside everyday, rain or shine! (Not long today, too hot!)

[High_Plains_Drifter]

As the person who made the analogy between abortion and freedom to socialize anyhow we want, I will say that the hypocrisy of the pro-abortion folks has always been galling.

As for people being weirded out, I will speak only for myself. I am overall staying calm in the midst of this, especially considering my risks. I am not wallowing in the news. Other than here, I try to ignore most of it. I say try because sometimes it just pops up on feeds and on TV. I was nervous and down at first, but as I settled in to our new reality, and saw all the steps being taken to control the virus, I felt much better. Now with all the talk of opening everything back up, coupled with knowing how selfish and immature people will be, especially younger folks, the calm is teetering.

If anything weirds me out, it is the cavalier attitude that folks with no appreciable risk factors are taking. It seems selfish. And the idea that if you prioritize wanting to stay safe, you must not value freedom or the Constitution, is making me want to bang my head.

I tend to to stay quiet on such things here, because I think we are all frustrated and nervous for various reasons. It’s not the time to finger-point, at the President or at each other.

And I like everyone here. :cool:
I was actually speaking generically to the issue as a whole, not intending for anyone to feel as though I had singled them out. Sorry if you got the impression I wrote what I did just because of you.

I do find it interesting though how this issue has brought out such diametrical differences in how people think and believe that had previously appeared to be of the same mind.

I like everyone here too... well... mostly... :rolleyes:

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Sounds like my beach resort of choice, Long Beach Island, NJ, will open the beaches with the requirement of social distancing. How they enforce that on a beautiful summer day will be interesting. Not to mention, NJ is in very bad shape right now.
The UV rays in sunlight, heat an humidity KILL the virus, so actually getting outside in the sun and getting some heat is a very good thing to do... but so is keeping with social distancing.

[Abbey Marie]

I was actually speaking generically to the issue as a whole, not intending for anyone to feel as though I had singled them out. Sorry if you got the impression I wrote what I did just because of you.

I do find it interesting though how this issue has brought out such diametrical differences in how people think and believe.

I like everyone here too... well... mostly... :rolleyes:

I honestly didn't think you meant that for me, Tom. And likewise, my post was about people in general who feel that way, not you specifically.

As for the latter point, I’m not sure that we can see these as ironclad statements of what people believe. Rather, I think it is logical and advantageous to give things a think and adjust if needed to the circumstances in which we find ourselves. Not just now, but throughout life. Core principles are important, but the ability to adjust a bit to current needs is important, too. I’m not saying to abandon your beliefs. I certainly won’t abandon my Christian faith for anything. But apart from that, I am able and willing to pivot a bit now and then.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I thank God I live where I do. Four acres on edge of national park. I'm outside everyday. Trimmed up 4 trees yesterday on the property. Today I'm suffering severe allergies. Stirred up lots of pollen. So, no virus, but miserable anyway!
Yup, you're actually in a damn good spot, Sassy. That AZ sun will kill the virus on any surface in a matter or seconds, minutes, even on your skin, and maybe even inside you, since UV rays do penetrate your skin.

Yeah if I was you, I'd spend as much time outside as I could. I remember 3 1/2 years in Phoenix... one hot sons a bitch. I equated Phoenix to living in a FRYING PAN.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I honestly didn't think you meant that for me, Tom. And likewise, my post was about people in general who feel that way, not you specifically.

As for the latter point, I’m not sure that we can see these as ironclad statements of what people believe. Rather, I think it is logical and advantageous to give things a think and adjust if needed to the circumstances in which we find ourselves. Not just now, but throughout life. Core principles are important, but the ability to adjust a bit to current needs is important, too. I’m not saying to abandon your beliefs. I certainly won’t abandon my Christian faith for anything. But apart from that, I am able and willing to pivot a bit now and then.
I just hope we're all still friends when this is all over, and that we're ALL STILL HERE, healthy and alive... :wraparms:

[Abbey Marie]

I just hope we're all still friends when this is all over, and that we're ALL STILL HERE, healthy and alive... :wraparms:

Amen to that...

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Amen to that...
- - - - - :amen:

[Kathianne]

I do think the president has an inquiring mind, but it shouldn't be 'live' when he ruminates about what he just heard. It's stream of consciousness thinking, which I doubt he'd want presented to him as a 'boss' before or during politics. He's doing that with the American people, some of whom believe every word he utters was put there by god.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/media-erupt-over-trump-comments-on-disinfectant-heres-what-he-said
Well today he said it was a sarcastic response to a sarcastic question from reporters. EvenFox then put the whole bit on. No questions at the point, was stream of consciousness.

Also today the administration said that the president will not be able to do these pressers everyday.

Good move.

[SassyLady]

Yup, you're actually in a damn good spot, Sassy. That AZ sun will kill the virus on any surface in a matter or seconds, minutes, even on your skin, and maybe even inside you, since UV rays do penetrate your skin.

Yeah if I was you, I'd spend as much time outside as I could. I remember 3 1/2 years in Phoenix... one hot sons a bitch. I equated Phoenix to living in a FRYING PAN.

It's 5 PM here and 94° so pretty warm. Outside everyday and take 50,000 units Vitamin D3 every week. Just in case.

[Drummond]

It's 5 PM here and 94° so pretty warm. Outside everyday and take 50,000 units Vitamin D3 every week. Just in case.

Be careful of that dose. 50,000 units is very high. At the end of last year, my doctor advised me I was low in vitamin D. He prescribed a weekly dose of 25,000 iu's ... and just one capsule a week for six weeks.

That was during a BRITISH winter.

50,000 units, even if only weekly, is borderline dangerous. Remember .. it's in addition to any your skin manufactures. Take all possible care.

[Drummond]

Well today he said it was a sarcastic response to a sarcastic question from reporters. EvenFox then put the whole bit on. No questions at the point, was stream of consciousness.

Also today the administration said that the president will not be able to do these pressers everyday.

Good move.

Our press has had a field day over President Trump's remarks. LBC news presenters have been insisting all day that Trump advised people should inject themselves with bleach.

From James O''Brien (always a rabid Trump hater, who very happily gave vent to his 'disgust') .. to Shelagh Fogarty (not so much of a hater) .. to Eddie Mair (an ex-BBC anchor-man, once a host for Radio 4's 'PM' programme) ... every one insisted that Trump advocated injections of bleach.

I've not even checked on the BBC today. But I will, before the day's out.

[Drummond]

As the person who made the analogy between abortion and freedom to socialize anyhow we want, I will say that the hypocrisy of the pro-abortion folks has always been galling.

As for people being weirded out, I will speak only for myself. I am overall staying calm in the midst of this, especially considering my risks. I am not wallowing in the news. Other than here, I try to ignore most of it. I say try because sometimes it just pops up on feeds and on TV. I was nervous and down at first, but as I settled in to our new reality, and saw all the steps being taken to control the virus, I felt much better. Now with all the talk of opening everything back up, coupled with knowing how selfish and immature people will be, especially younger folks, the calm is teetering.

If anything weirds me out, it is the cavalier attitude that folks with no appreciable risk factors are taking. It seems selfish. And the idea that if you prioritize wanting to stay safe, you must not value freedom or the Constitution, is making me want to bang my head.

I tend to to stay quiet on such things here, because I think we are all frustrated and nervous for various reasons. It’s not the time to finger-point, at the President or at each other.

And I like everyone here. :cool:

I've given up trying to debate my corner on this issue. There's no point.

Reverence for the Constitution and the 'inalienable right to liberty and freedom' is fine, absolutely splendid ... IN THE RIGHT CONDITIONS.

But those conditions don't exist in present-day Georgia.

Covid-19 WILL more easily spread, it WILL more easily kill. But it's clear to me that Americans are fine with that, just so long as a document that's hundreds of years old gets the proper reverence.

It's your choice. It's your fate. If you people really do believe in 'Liberty or death', literally so, I can't help you.

Just keep the resulting death tolls down to the nearest thousand, if you can.

My brand of Conservative is different. I see that now.

I am a pragmatist. I see realism as THE superior trait I have over the average dogma-bound Leftie.

I'd much rather Covid-19 was defeated by ANY means possible. I say that lives MATTER.

But, that's just me.

End of message. I've had enough.

Best wishes, Abbey.

[SassyLady]

Be careful of that dose. 50,000 units is very high. At the end of last year, my doctor advised me I was low in vitamin D. He prescribed a weekly dose of 25,000 iu's ... and just one capsule a week for six weeks.

That was during a BRITISH winter.

50,000 units, even if only weekly, is borderline dangerous. FRemember .. it's in addition to any your skin manufactures. Take all possible care.

Thanks for the advice. It's a prescription and been taking for about 10 years. Something in DNA means I don't process from sunlight.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Thanks for the advice. It's a prescription and been taking for about 10 years. Something in DNA means I don't process from sunlight.
My ex wife is a redhead. She never tanned, even all day in the Florida sun with me. She just burnt.

[SassyLady]

My ex wife is a redhead. She never tanned, even all day in the Florida sun with me. She just burnt.

I'm a natural brunette ... 97% Irish and never burn. I always thought I had some Native American because I never burn. Nope! I have less Native American than Warren.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I'm a natural brunette ... 97% Irish and never burn. I always thought I had some Native American because I never burn. Nope! I have less Native American than Warren.
Yeah we always thought we had a little native American in us too, until we did the DNA thing. I'm like 79% Scandinavian, 15% Irish, and the rest just a mix match of other European decent, mostly German. That would explain my light colored hair and blue eyes. We're also less than 1% native American.

I always tanned good, but I had to start out slow.

[SassyLady]

Yeah we always thought we had a little native American in us too, until we did the DNA thing. I'm like 79% Scandinavian, 15% Irish, and the rest just a mix match of other European decent, mostly German. That would explain my light colored hair and blue eyes. We're also less than 1% native American.

I always tanned good, but I had to start out slow.

I did my 23&Me and Ancestry last year. Traced my dad's side of family back to 900s. Ancestors arrived in UK from Normandy with William the Conqueror. My direct American ancestor fled to America from Ireland in mid 1600s after Cromwell came through and massacred everyone. I have a couple of Bishops and Knights in my lineage but after coming to America nothing of note.

[jimnyc]

But it's clear to me that Americans are fine with that, just so long as a document that's hundreds of years old gets the proper reverence.

You continue along thinking that we are too stupid to have rights and also use protections and common sense.

And THERE is the main difference. You see all of our rights that have been fought for and bled for and died for - to be a few hundred years old document, a point of ridicule when a virus is about.

We see it as our essential freedoms. Our lives. All that America stands for. That's no joke nor something to give up when faced with difficult times.

Yes, you prefer to be alive and have a RULER over you, where we would all prefer freedom, and would die like so many before us to defend the great nation, it's freedoms and the future of such for our kids and grandkids.

So I guess while we aren't smart enough to care for ourselves with freedom, I guess others ARE able to care for them.... have someone care for them.

[Drummond]

I did my 23&Me and Ancestry last year. Traced my dad's side of family back to 900s. Ancestors arrived in UK from Normandy with William the Conqueror. My direct American ancestor fled to America from Ireland in mid 1600s after Cromwell came through and massacred everyone. I have a couple of Bishops and Knights in my lineage but after coming to America nothing of note.

Your success in tracing back your genealogy so far into the past is nothing less than remarkable .. I'm impressed !

You see, I happen to know something about civil registration in my own part of the world. It's a fact that birth, marriage and death records weren't even registered before 1837 ... and no compulsion in law existed to do so, until 1874.

We were the first in the world to have civil registration.

Other records ... parish records, gravestones, baptism records & the like ... and most certainly before the 19th century !! ... would've been very 'hit & miss', with no mandatory duty existing to record any of it, in law. So, congratulations ! Most people aren't as lucky as you've been to trace back so far in time !!

[Drummond]

You continue along thinking that we are too stupid to have rights and also use protections and common sense.

Very well .. I'll be blunt, because frankly, my patience is exhausted on all this (& you're obviously trying to keep me arguing. I'll do so for a short time).

YES. You describe this accurately.

The commonsense approach to Covid-19 is to do everything possible to WIPE IT OUT.

However, no vaccine is available .. yet .. to help with that.

Distancing, lockdowns, are the only alternatives, to be applied as rigorously as possible in order to be as effective as possible.

This is the commmonsense approach.

But, instead, what am I seeing ?

Answer: a DISGUSTING nutcase of a Governor, who, despite the high incidence of confirmed infection cases in his part of the world, is RELAXING lockdowns there. Why ? Because he has a cure ? Because his people have suddenly developed blanket immunity ?

NO.

He fails to understand, or maybe just doesn't care to, that he'll cause a new spike in cases, and more, AVOIDABLE, deaths.

Perhaps he buys into the 'Liberty or death' mantra ?? My understanding is that it underpins his actions.

Well, I've news for him, and for all of you. He'll get BOTH. Increased liberty, but, liberty leading to death.

How 'kind' of him !!

You people apparently think 'Liberty or death' is superior to all logic that counters it. All fine and dandy for you.

But, I ask: will all the ADDITIONAL deaths, DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE to a staunch belief in this mantra, create a core of infection larger and denser than the original Wuhan outbreak started from ?

Try this scenario out for size, then ... will your LIBERTY OR DEATH beliefs springboard ITS OWN SECOND WAVE OF INFECTION, OF INTERNATIONAL PROPORTIONS ?

Because, folks, guess what ? I really prefer NOT to die !!

America's lack of logic, lack of commonsense, lack of restraint, threatens US ALL.

AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR ? ARE YOU UNDERSTANDING ME ?

I somehow doubt it.


And THERE is the main difference. You see all of our rights that have been fought for and bled for and died for - to be a few hundred years old document, a point of ridicule when a virus is about.

We see it as our essential freedoms. Our lives. All that America stands for. That's no joke nor something to give up when faced with difficult times.

See what I've bolded in red. THERE is where my charge of sheer lack of commonsense gains full justification.

I'm glad for you that you have such principles. In NORMAL conditions, you can afford them. But Covid-19 will kill, en masse, and it'll do it by being no respecter of your principles. Give it a chance to spread .. IT WILL ... end of story !!

One adapts to changing conditions, Jim, or, you threaten to go the way of the dinosaurs.

Put it this way. Try this scenario out.

A community living in peace, happy in its unshakeable principles, suddenly faces the prospect of an invasion by a hostile and deadly force. It is one that cannot be resisted, UNLESS, a large contingent of troops, arrives ... fully armed, with an implacable determination to repel the invader, and to destroy the threat it poses.

The invasion happens. The troops repel the invaders, killing them off, destroying any future basis for invasion from that threat .. BECAUSE .. the threat has been destroyed. It has been destroyed through implacable, unswerving, determination to apply the means available to ensure that destruction.

All well and good -- yes ? Would Americans approve ?

Well ... maybe not.

Apply Covid-19 as analogous to that account. Your approach, instead, is to be loyal to your principles, but to NOT be motivated, because of them, to arm yourself with the few weapons to hand to fight it. No troops, no analogous means of fighting back is employed, and in fact, your principles allow you to make it EASIER FOR THE INVADER TO SUCCCEED IN DOING ITS HARM.

Being blunt, may I tell you that to effectively surrender to Covid-19 is just utterly and inexcusably braindead stupid.

But worse than this ... who knows ... you may create a stronger basis for a global outbreak than Wuhan ever did. Tell me, how did the Wuhan one work out ? Are you happy with what you've seen from it ?

Perhaps so, because your country is threatening a Mark #2 version of it !!

I'd rather history didn't record your Georgia Governor as a world criminal, ultimately responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths worldwide, courtesy of a newly-invigorated Covid-19 breaking out of Georgia, with comparative ease (or will he also apply a total quarantine, that won't be breached ?). Better that he avoids the 'world criminal' fate ... sez me.

And, yes. I still want to live.

MAY I ? Please ??

Don't draw me into further argument on this. Because I will probably find myself being even MORE blunt in response.

Commonsense versus age-old principle, principle stalling adaptability to the real world, with deadly consequences. Covid-19 is defining our world, at present. Do you adapt to Covid's reality ? Or, out of 'principle', do you give it a helping hand to kill many thousands more people ?

YOUR choice ...

... OUR fate !!!

Don't employ the braindead Leftie mentality of putting dogma before reality itself. Conservatives are superior BECAUSE they are different.

Unless, you choose not to be, after all.

DO YOU ??

[jimnyc]

You people

AM I MAKING MYSELF CLEAR ? ARE YOU UNDERSTANDING ME ?

I somehow doubt it.


I think this is where I drop out of the "debate". I don't mind discussing and/or debating stuff, but little point when someone takes such superiority to think they are so much better and smarter than others and then dismiss what they have to say and declare themselves the smart one of the bunch and declare us/me somehow less intelligent. I just walk away at such times and let folks like that continue on believing such as the reality runs circles around them.

Too smart for me to comprehend, to the point I can't even understand. :rolleyes:

The smugness is unbelievable.

You keep being ruled by folks and laugh at freedom, and literally make fun of our freedoms and our COTUS - the truth of that has come out clearly. For one who so apparently supported such in the past, now comes out and literally laughs at and scoffs and diminishes our constitution, our direct RIGHTS. But once someone lays down and says "rule me", then they can't comprehend others and their freedoms.

And yet some can be RULED and TOLD what to do and HOW to lives their lives, and mock our way of life and freedoms. To even have the thought of that is disgusting. To watch people talk of freedom and wish for it, and to instantly go belly down and ass up and beg the government for guidance and direction. No thanks.

Nope, I don't understand you, nor do I want to. I couldn't give a flying fuck about any of your freedoms at this point. Nor do I even care to entertain such dependency of the government to hold my hand and wipe my ass. And when they take gun rights away, tell you what you can and cannot say, what religion you can belong to.... and you say "Yes sir government!"

Nope, I don't understand. You're too brilliant for me. Oh wait, YOU'RE TOO BRILLIANT FOR ME!!! There, much better.

[Drummond]

I think this is where I drop out of the "debate". I don't mind discussing and/or debating stuff, but little point when someone takes such superiority to think they are so much better and smarter than others and then dismiss what they have to say and declare themselves the smart one of the bunch and declare us/me somehow less intelligent. I just walk away at such times and let folks like that continue on believing such as the reality runs circles around them.

Too smart for me to comprehend, to the point I can't even understand. :rolleyes:

The smugness is unbelievable.

You keep being ruled by folks and laugh at freedom, and literally make fun of our freedoms and our COTUS - the truth of that has come out clearly. For one who so apparently supported such in the past, now comes out and literally laughs at and scoffs and diminishes our constitution, our direct RIGHTS. But once someone lays down and says "rule me", then they can't comprehend others and their freedoms.

And yet some can be RULED and TOLD what to do and HOW to lives their lives, and mock our way of life and freedoms. To even have the thought of that is disgusting. To watch people talk of freedom and wish for it, and to instantly go belly down and ass up and beg the government for guidance and direction. No thanks.

Nope, I don't understand you, nor do I want to. I couldn't give a flying fuck about any of your freedoms at this point. Nor do I even care to entertain such dependency of the government to hold my hand and wipe my ass. And when they take gun rights away, tell you what you can and cannot say, what religion you can belong to.... and you say "Yes sir government!"

Nope, I don't understand. You're too brilliant for me. Oh wait, YOU'RE TOO BRILLIANT FOR ME!!! There, much better.

No, you do not understand me, any more than I understand you. Absolutely no (or if you prefer, NO) smugness is involved. Rather, I think that America's lack of logic, lack of practicality, lack of sheer commonsense, threatens the entire globe.

I'm sorry to see that you chose not to address or recognise that point, even though I made it with clarity.

Exasperation drives me, along with a concern for all those your principles may ultimately, needlessly, kill. If the Georgia Governor relaxes his lockdown controls, and doesn't even have the wisdom to concurrently apply a quarantine around the entire area of his jurisdiction ... then, the virus will multiply, kill many thousands more, it will escape Georgia's borders, and start a second wave of infection.

Tell me I'm wrong. Show me how I'm wrong. And if you don't care that he causes all of that, try telling me why you don't care.

Forgive my 'smugness' and 'superiority' (!!) in asking you these straightforward questions.

Your reply to me was emotional in content, Jim. You offered me no logically-based counters to my argument. You didn't disprove anything of what I'd said. All you did was level charges of 'smugness' and the like against me.

I think you know I'm right, but you can't move past nationalistic pride to admit it. You can no more admit error than the bog-standard dogma-enslaved Leftie.

I live in the real world. It's that simple.

I hope not to die prematurely in it. May I, please, be granted that freedom ?

And that involves absolutely no smugness, nor sense of superiority. I want to live, not be klilled because a people were too illogical to do what they had to do, to combat a lethal threat.

[jimnyc]

With respect, of which none is there in return - no thank you.

[Hot Dogger]

Very well .. I'll be blunt, because frankly, my patience is exhausted on all this (& you're obviously trying to keep me arguing. I'll do so for a short time).

YES. You describe this accurately.

The commonsense approach to Covid-19 is to do everything possible to WIPE IT OUT.

However, no vaccine is available .. yet .. to help with that.....

The common sense approach to wiping out any communicable disease is hygiene and palliative care, those are the real possibilities, since God puts no reliance in science. Drummond, do you think that we should all be forcibly vaccinated against what is more likely than not a false flag hoax? And even if there is a hellish COVID-19 virus sweeping the planet, I'll take my chances with the immune system God gave me. Besides, I've already survived Rift Valley Fever and anthrax, so a puny little coronavirus ain't jack squat compared to my antibodies. Lastly, as for common sense, those who believe anything that any government says have no common sense.

[jimnyc]

I think you know I'm right

Just noticed this again. There is ZERO point in even thinking about debating with someone who is so smug to believe their argument is automatically superior, better than others, and so smart that we freedom loving, gun shooting Americans who hang onto a dumb piece of paper that has no basis in reality when it comes to a virus. It should all instantly be forgotten and discarded.

And not just that you are right and I am wrong - but I KNOW you are right and somehow not admitting to it?

None of the above. I refuse to give up my freedoms for TEMPORARY protections of any kind. And perhaps I cannot comprehend, cannot comprehend those that would flip a coin and give up their rights in seconds to be RULED by someone. Oh HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

And YES, I would rather be dead then turn to a ruler for our country and have our freedoms slowly chipped away at. Take 10 away, give 8 back. Take 8 more away, give 7 back.

So let me die in my free peaceful world then and die the dumbass I am. :) :)

[jimnyc]

The common sense approach to wiping out any communicable disease is hygiene and palliative care, those are the real possibilities, since God puts no reliance in science. Drummond, do you think that we should all be forcibly vaccinated against what is more likely than not a false flag hoax? And even if there is a hellish COVID-19 virus sweeping the planet, I'll take my chances with the immune system God gave me. Besides, I've already survived Rift Valley Fever and anthrax, so a puny little coronavirus ain't jack squat compared to my antibodies. Lastly, as for common sense, those who believe anything that any government says have no common sense.

Some are against vaccines and all for freedom, until they are not.

[Drummond]

With respect, of which none is there in return - no thank you.

And there it is. QED.

The world does not stop at America's borders. The wave of infection your Georgia Governor threatens to unleash is something that, certainly in global terms, you're not interested in caring about.

I still say that my life matters. I don't want to see its existence threatened because Americans cannot, and will not, adjust in realistic terms to their world as it now, indisputably, IS.

I think, when all of this finally ends, you will observe America's death toll, and you'll see a truly staggering number of them reported. if you insist upon being totally nationalistic about this (& to hell with all the rest of us ?) ... you may care to ask: how many were directly attributable to a lack of adaptation to Covid's reality ?

Or, you may not care to ask that, at all.

Or, you may believe that all the extra deaths were unavoidable and maybe even meritorious, because they served to help you keep your higher principles fully in place.

I am not your brand of Conservative. Mine lives in the real world, and it does what's best in, and for, that world.

Yours is immovably loyal to a dogma, one not attuned to today's realities, but which you'll follow, all the same.

I prefer clarity of vision to myopia.

But you won't understand that. Nor will you care to.

In the meantime ... Covid does its work.

In the REAL world.

[jimnyc]

Oh brother. :rolleyes:

Out of respect, Drummond, I am only replying to tell you one last time I'm done with discussing this with you. I didn't want to just disappear and have one somehow claim superiority because the other stopped responding. Nah, I'm doing so out of the lack of respect in the manner you have replied to me. I know if I continue I will start replying in kind, and I don't want to go there. I too can drop a few choice words about the UK and the Queen and being ruled by blah blah blah and then declare myself the International champion, in caps and bold of course. :thumb:

Rather than lose respect or friendship, I'm going to ignore and avoid all talk of superiority and move onward. I am of the style of self denigration at times and try not to brag. I AM a dirtbag after all and have an image to uphold! :) :)

But seriously, when it's with friends, I simply try harder to avoid having discussions that turn into debates, and then debates that turn into harsher arguments, which often lead to insults and finally claims of a winner and some sort of superiority over the other. You simply went from A-Z from MY point of view. Rather than make things worse or try to one up you, I'm bailing instead to avoid all of the above.

And if you want to continue on as is, at least here in DP land that is your right. :saluting2:

[Drummond]

Just noticed this again. There is ZERO point in even thinking about debating with someone who is so smug to believe their argument is automatically superior, better than others, and so smart that we freedom loving, gun shooting Americans who hang onto a dumb piece of paper that has no basis in reality when it comes to a virus. It should all instantly be forgotten and discarded.

And not just that you are right and I am wrong - but I KNOW you are right and somehow not admitting to it?

None of the above. I refuse to give up my freedoms for TEMPORARY protections of any kind. And perhaps I cannot comprehend, cannot comprehend those that would flip a coin and give up their rights in seconds to be RULED by someone. Oh HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

And YES, I would rather be dead then turn to a ruler for our country and have our freedoms slowly chipped away at. Take 10 away, give 8 back. Take 8 more away, give 7 back.

So let me die in my free peaceful world then and die the dumbass I am. :) :)

Unfortunately, Jim, and as I've said already, the world doesn't stop at America's borders.

I think that America's core values are great, morally and humanly superior. In NORMAL times.

Give me the smallest piece of evidence to show me that Covid-19 cares at all about them, and that it'll stop killing Americans because of them. Show me that, instead, its infectious capabilities won't effectively exploit ANY failure of yours to do what you MUST do, to stop Covid in its tracks, to starve it of further infection opportunities.

That you prefer your quality of moral existence, does nothing to adapt to realities that may necessitate un-preferred steps to rectify matters.

You apparently prefer to die, instead.

Forgive me. I prefer to live. I don't think I'm wrong to wish for life.

[Hot Dogger]

Some are against vaccines and all for freedom, until they are not.

And that's why our American Creed says "Live free or die!"

:saluting2:

[Drummond]

Drummond, do you think that we should all be forcibly vaccinated against what is more likely than not a false flag hoax? And even if there is a hellish COVID-19 virus sweeping the planet, I'll take my chances with the immune system God gave me.

Unfortunately, I can cite your post as an illustration of an American choosing his own reality, rather than ACTUAL reality.

WHAT 'false flag' hoax ??

Are all reports, from all countries across the entire world, all 'fake news', when it comes to Covid-19 ?

Did my own Prime Minister nearly die of a hoax ? Or was his entire illness itself a hoax ?

My exasperation by this point is extreme !

WHY CAN'T AMERICANS FACE REALITY, AND 'WORSE', DEAL WITH IT IN PURELY REALISTIC TERMS ??

Why does this sheer logic and commonsense elude so many of you ??


Besides, I've already survived Rift Valley Fever and anthrax, so a puny little coronavirus ain't jack squat compared to my antibodies.

So, let me understand you. You're saying that - even though you've not been infected with Covid-19 - you DO carry within you a guaranteed immunity from it ?

Are YOU, PERSONALLY, the God-given medical miracle the entire world is crying out for ? Why haven't you offered yourself to medical science, in the service of all Mankind ?

Oh, sorry. Of course. Covid-19 is a 'false flag' hoax. Ah, silly me. I stand corrected.

A neighbour of mine recently died of that 'hoax'. Or, perhaps she's started a second, completely secret, life of sunning herself in glorious Barbados ?

In which case, who did we recently bury ???

.... Cripes ....


Lastly, as for common sense, those who believe anything that any government says have no common sense

My Government told me that my Prime Minister nearly died of Covid-19. I lack the commonsense to disbelieve them.

Forgive me.

[Drummond]

And that's why our American Creed says "Live free or die!"

:saluting2:

In skating over my past arguments, Jim neglected to reproduce the logic behind them.

As ever, my arguments are grounded in realism.

A comparison is being made between the stand I took on measles, versus the entirely different one I'm taking on Covid.

I argued that vaccinations against measles shouldn't be compulsory (interestingly, many here argued I was wrong). I argued that measles wasn't that serious a disease, that deaths from it were rare, that a herd immunity effect existed, and that an effective vaccine, IF needed, was there for people to choose to take.

Covid-19 ... that 'hoax' ... is totally different. Herd immunities don't exist. A vaccine doesn't exist. Its ability to infect is extreme. So, when a vaccine does ultimately become available, compulsory vaccination will be required. To create the herd immunit effect from its usage.

To SAFEGUARD LIFE, somethiing which Americans seemingly think is extremely cheap, easily killed off, for the sake of a principle.

In both my arguments above, logic and practicality were my guide. Of course they were.

But I see no acknowledgment from Jim that this is so.

I've never been vaccinated against anything at all, ever. I hate the very thought of it.

But when a vaccine against Covid-19 appears, I won't hesitate to take it.

Practicality, along with a desire to actually LIVE, will require it.

And to hell with a certain Georgian Governor who'll happily threaten us all, with his - dogmatic - recklessness.

[jimnyc]

And that's why our American Creed says "Live free or die!"

:saluting2:

I'll never understand folks that prefer to have the government dictate their lives and tell them how to live and what they can and cannot do.

We had muslim members here that swore over and over the great graces of islam, and how sharia is misunderstood, and their way of life and living under dictators was a great life. They have no idea what true freedom is, so they don't mind not having it. So in Iran today, when licking artifacts were over, and the dictator started killing people and changing rules on the spot, they say yes sir! A life of fear of getting ones head lopped off!!! And they support dictators doing so. The lack of freedoms in their world is crazy. And yet they support it and will mock us for enjoying our freedoms. And then we have the far far far left rabid lefties that come around that will jump into freedom style threads and instantly attack the constitution, that it's an outdated piece of paper that has no reality today. Never mind the fact that it spells out all of our basic freedoms, toss it nonetheless. Maybe even upgrade it. Perhaps when another person in a few decades wants to toss away religious readings, as they have no basis today. Religion has changed a lot and we should change with it. With the left and more and more "acceptance" today, these writings of centuries ago, should be changed to reflect current times. :) :)

I think it's just a matter of life and repetitiveness. Folks born into something and living it, and they know it, and they respect it. Makes sense to me. Look at the Chinese. Every person has a cell phone that is basically their life aka basically their connection to the government - who now knows EVERYTHING they do with it, which is everything. And most don't mind in China. The government there basically sits back and listens openly to everything and privacy is a thing that only exists in other crazy countries. They are so used to it they don't mind the lack of privacy I guess. Russia, don't even get me started. They kinda know who the "boss" is over there and they all know on the map where Siberia is located! LOL

Who knows, maybe that's us. Folks think we're nuts because we desire our freedoms over everything. To the point we will fight and die for them. But if my alternatives are losing my privacy, losing my rights, losing history, living in fear of my life, having my freedoms yanked for temporary security - then come looking and take my weapons from my cold dead hands after I protect all that we stand for.

[jimnyc]

In skating over my past arguments, Jim neglected to reproduce the logic behind them.

As ever, my arguments are grounded in realism.


Man, just gonna continue on as the champ and superior huh?

Ask ANY staff member what I said from the VERY beginning of you starting in with our COTUS and our rights. Emmmm, no champ. Just someone with RESPECT who even told them instantly why I didn't want to do a point by point destruction - as I respect YOU, and in fact, I said "in the interest of international relations" :laugh: And of course to avoid fighting with a friend.

So can the superiority, I simply don't want to be a prick in the way I argue, nor claim superiority, nor insult you as we talk nor insult you or the queen or your current leader. I CHOSE to back off, and am still doing so, as the superiority and pointing out of just how right you are and just how very wrong all of we are. I for one chose the higher road.

So continue as you will, delusional superiority complex.

[Drummond]

Oh brother. :rolleyes:

Out of respect, Drummond, I am only replying to tell you one last time I'm done with discussing this with you. I didn't want to just disappear and have one somehow claim superiority because the other stopped responding. Nah, I'm doing so out of the lack of respect in the manner you have replied to me. I know if I continue I will start replying in kind, and I don't want to go there. I too can drop a few choice words about the UK and the Queen and being ruled by blah blah blah and then declare myself the International champion, in caps and bold of course. :thumb:

Rather than lose respect or friendship, I'm going to ignore and avoid all talk of superiority and move onward. I am of the style of self denigration at times and try not to brag. I AM a dirtbag after all and have an image to uphold! :) :)

But seriously, when it's with friends, I simply try harder to avoid having discussions that turn into debates, and then debates that turn into harsher arguments, which often lead to insults and finally claims of a winner and some sort of superiority over the other. You simply went from A-Z from MY point of view. Rather than make things worse or try to one up you, I'm bailing instead to avoid all of the above.

And if you want to continue on as is, at least here in DP land that is your right. :saluting2:

I agree. You should avoid all talk of my supposed 'superiority' (or, 'air of' same). It's insulting, it's untrue, you use it (or have done, up to now) just to score cheap points in the absence of greater logic to combat my arguments.

I'd be most disappointed if my continued presence in DP land was to be denied to me because I pursued logic, practicality, realism and good, solid, truly Conservative instincts and values. So I'm glad that you can guarantee I'll not be acted against because I demonstrate each of these in my arguments.

I don't want Americans to die because they can't, and actually won't, adapt to real-time conditions. But, if you really think principles framed and drafted by people who did nothing to recognise pandemic realities, whose worldvision was, of necessity, limited to a world that hasn't even existed for hundreds of years .... if you think that immovable adherence to their document is so much more important than today's living, breathing, human life ... of course, that's your right, and your choice.

All I'm ultimately saying, is this: there IS a real world out there. Today's realities WILL govern what happens in the real world. So, if Americans really do choose to die from a lack of adaptability, and they're actually happy to .. very well.

Allow me to mourn all of the deaths, though, needless though they'll be ...

.... for as long as I may myself be able to live.

[Drummond]

Man, just gonna continue on as the champ and superior huh?

I thought you were going to stop this ?

Apparently not.

You insult me when you accuse me of 'superiority'. Especially when all I've done is to argue with logic, realism, even with real concern for American lives, which I'd much prefer were NOT sacrificed on the altar of fossilised principle.

I tell the truth, the full, unvarnished truth. I should ... my realism demands it.

If you can't respect my views, at least respect the truth of where they come from. Try doing me THAT much of a courtesy.

And forgive those 'naughty' capital letters of mine, too.

[jimnyc]

I agree. You should avoid all talk of my supposed 'superiority' (or, 'air of' same). It's insulting, it's untrue, you use it (or have done, up to now) just to score cheap points in the absence of greater logic to combat my arguments.

Quite frankly? Fuck yourself. And go ahead and demand an apology for something. Your smugness isn't something I would apologize for. I tried to avoid telling you what a complete dick you're being, but you simply reply with how great you are and I can't understand. And I laugh and move to the next post. Laughter is the best medicine. And yeah yeah "I'll be alive at least", so be it. And why? Because you are so so much smarter than I am. Thinning of the herd to an extent if you will. Perhaps all the stupid people will be gone and the collective IQ will skyrocket and make us that much more better of a country. So not only am I enjoying my freedoms, but contributing to the future success of America.

Folks so intelligent such as yourself, it's got to be tiring after awhile. Me? Not so much. I just go outside with no care in the world, if I die and bring someone with me, so be it. It's much easier living life when you're of the lower IQ segment of society. Not only less thinking and therefore less struggling, but sometimes my stupidity then gets the government for some odd reason to start helping me out. :dunno:

I need remedial courses. I'm gonna join in the fall, perhaps my local community college. I ain't too bright, as you know of course. Perhaps they can catch me up with the ever changing history documents. Sure is a devil of a time to keep up when history is continually rewritten.

While an apology will not be forthcoming, perhaps you'll make do with me bowing down to your superiority and acknowledging you are the supreme winner of DP thread #275,291. But such superiority demands more. Not just acknowledge how you are not only right, but RIGHT, and with such ultimate intelligence and superiority, it only makes sense that you're the winner of every single thread you participate in!!

So while looking to figure out how to insert thy willy in thyself, I will embarrassingly walk away from this thread as the loser I am. As the dumber one. A dead man on the horizon, dead man walking as they say.

[jimnyc]

I thought you were going to stop this ?

Apparently not.

You insult me when you accuse me of 'superiority'. Especially when all I've done is to argue with logic, realism, even with real concern for American lives, which I'd much prefer were NOT sacrificed on the altar of fossilised principle.

I tell the truth, the full, unvarnished truth. I should ... my realism demands it.

If you can't respect my views, at least respect the truth of where they come from. Try doing me THAT much of a courtesy.

And forgive those 'naughty' capital letters of mine, too.

Gonna chat in a thread and DEMAND you know more and DEMAND others can't understand or comprehend you. And then demand respect? Is that a fucking joke?

[Kathianne]

I'm not going to get involved in this argument, though will say that Drummond doesn't seem to recognize that he is trashing our form of government and the issues we hold dear.

It actually makes a sham of the years of his goading Americans to back what he see vital against the logic of the left/socialism, while he walks in lockstep against any of the norms in his country.

When his government's reactions to the US lockdown, stopping flights with China, etc., was against because they were using the scientific logic of 'herd immunity,' he argued strongly that the US should be following their lead. Indeed, that the US was choosing fear over science.

Then his government took a close look at what it meant to go with the herd model, likely nudged by US advice, and a bit late, moved to locking down.

As the article I posted last night acknowledged, his government IS considering opening:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?69643-UK-Has-Struggled-With-How-To-Deal-With-Virus-and-Now-How-To-Deal-With-Aftermath

The question is will that then be 'the right way to go, since UK has decided it is so?"

Ignored for a couple of weeks now, are warning from the scientists that a vaccine may not be possible. So, UK really cannot afford to 'hunker down' until one is. So, what alternative?

If 15-20% have now been infected, with symptoms or not; opening up will infect others-we all agree on that. The virus will surge and the areas will have to curb movement for a time. Say then over time and area, those exposed will be up to perhaps 30%; repeat.

From what the scientists are saying, they believe 'herd immunity' will not kick in until somewhere between 80-90%. So yes, people will die, not good, but also not avoidable.

So what to do? Keep trying to build the immunity percentages. Protect the known vulnerable as much as possible. Keep working on 'treatments' that improve the outcome for those made seriously ill.

It's not going to be an 'either/or' choice. Once again, UK will likely just be a few steps behind.

[Drummond]

I'll never understand folks that prefer to have the government dictate their lives and tell them how to live and what they can and cannot do.

I've a simple answer to give you.

It isn't a matter of loving a tyranny, or of bending to authority just because the authority is 'there' ... at least, in many instances, it isn't (obviously regimes such as the Chinese one are exceptions).

The case of the UK makes my case for me. We have no Constitution. Instead, we have a political climate and a system where real-time situations are dealt with entirely in terms that fully address them.

It's not perfect (and Brexit was an embarrassment !!). But, our political system can make rules, regulations, unfettered by imperatives that are not in tune with the realities in play.

It has done that with Covid-19. We understand, to the extent that anyone does, what Covid-19 does, how it operates, and what must be done to best counter it. Rules are made to ensure that those measures as are worked out are enacted as fully as possible.

I say that our population is best served by following what our Government says, to the letter.

Here's the point. It's the height of commnsense and correctness to DO as the Government SAYS. If (as is true) our Government is correct in what it says, and decrees, must we nonetheless resist what they say, just to follow an ages-old mantra ?

Maybe people obey their Governments because what their Governments are correct. Maybe to disobey them would do needless harm ?

There is such a thing as a 100% correct Government. It's not an impossibility.

[pete311]

I'll never understand folks that prefer to have the government dictate their lives and tell them how to live and what they can and cannot do.

I'm willing to bet the minute you or a loved one gets put on a ventilator your tune changes. Or if deaths start reaching into the hundreds of thousands or more. Yay, the US will be destroyed, but hey, in your fucked up head, you're totally free. woohoo, winning! The gov wouldn't have to issue edicts if you ass hats would self quarantine and social distance.

[Kathianne]

I'm willing to bet the minute you or a loved one gets put on a ventilator your tune changes. Or if deaths start reaching into the hundreds of thousands or more. Yay, the US will be destroyed, but hey, in your fucked up head, you're totally free. woohoo, winning! The gov wouldn't have to issue edicts if you ass hats would self quarantine and social distance.
Surprise, Pete agrees with Drummond.

I've said all along, there's a difference between UK and US Conservatives and Liberals.

[Drummond]

I'm not going to get involved in this argument, though will say that Drummond doesn't seem to recognize that he is trashing our form of government and the issues we hold dear.

No delberate 'trashing' is involved. I simply argue from a position of realism. If that brings me into conflict with those who don't share it, well ... then, it does.


It actually makes a sham of the years of his goading Americans to back what he see vital against the logic of the left/socialism, while he walks in lockstep against any of the norms in his country.

Not sure of what you're saying here. I've done no 'goading'. I tell the truth as I know it to be. I see nothing wrong in that.

By 'walks in lockstep against any of the norms in his country' ... yes, I think I understand. I choose not to bend to social terraforming efforts perpetually made by the Left. I think I am right to do that. I won't apologise for it.

And, I do it in 'real time'. Lefties propagandise (e.g Trump supposedly saying we should all inject ourselves with bleach !) and I reject their propaganda. Again, I'm right to do so.

Do you think I'm not ?


When his government's reactions to the US lockdown, stopping flights with China, etc., was against because they were using the scientific logic of 'herd immunity,' he argued strongly that the US should be following their lead. Indeed, that the US was choosing fear over science.

I went with the wisdom of the time.


Then his government took a close look at what it meant to go with the herd model, likely nudged by US advice, and a bit late, moved to locking down.

I went with the wisdom of the time.

In each case, I followed realism, to the best of my ability. And, I adapted to changes. In that way, I remained attuned to the best decisions possible at the time they were made.

Adaptation, recognising truth when it appears, and not rejecting it through illogical immovability, is the best way.


As the article I posted last night acknowledged, his government IS considering opening:

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?69643-UK-Has-Struggled-With-How-To-Deal-With-Virus-and-Now-How-To-Deal-With-Aftermath

The question is will that then be 'the right way to go, since UK has decided it is so?"

Time will tell.

What we haven't done (and I think we urgently should) is to assume that the Georgian Governor's reckless irresponsibility threatens, t least potentially, a second Covid-19 pandemic wave. We need to interweave that impending prospect into our thinking. We haven't yet done that.

Trust me, though ... if that does transpire to be the truth of it, my Govenment WILL meet that reality, and take measures designed to meet it. And, yes, we will be wise to obey what they say ... and monumentally stupid if we don't.


Ignored for a couple of weeks now, are warning from the scientists that a vaccine may not be possible. So, UK really cannot afford to 'hunker down' until one is. So, what alternative?

Truth be told ... who really knows ?

We have to assume a vaccine will be found, and our trials, ongoing from Thursday, may find one. Our best minds are working on the assumption that we may succeed.

Should we assume we won't ?

There is but one overall truth in play here. The very best way to proceed, now and for always is to adapt to conditions as you must. Our Government has done that, and will continue to.

It is right to.

[SassyLady]

Your success in tracing back your genealogy so far into the past is nothing less than remarkable .. I'm impressed !

You see, I happen to know something about civil registration in my own part of the world. It's a fact that birth, marriage and death records weren't even registered before 1837 ... and no compulsion in law existed to do so, until 1874.

We were the first in the world to have civil registration.

Other records ... parish records, gravestones, baptism records & the like ... and most certainly before the 19th century !! ... would've been very 'hit & miss', with no mandatory duty existing to record any of it, in law. Smo, congratulations ! Most people aren't as lucky as you've been to trace back so far in time !!

Land deeds and titles seem to be pretty consistent.

[Drummond]

Surprise, Pete agrees with Drummond.

I've said all along, there's a difference between UK and US Conservatives and Liberals.

I've skimmed Pete's post. My reaction: it's disgusting.

I think I'll reply to it.

But, you're right on one point, and I see it now. There is a difference between UK and US Conservatives, and it's a 'biggie'. The truth of that comes down to just one word.

REALISM.

I don't think anybody could accuse a Leftie of realism. So, to Pete's post .......

[Kathianne]

No delberate 'trashing' is involved. I simply argue from a position of realism. If that brings me into conflict with those who don't share it, well ... then, it does.



Not sure of what you're saying here. I've done no 'goading'. I tell the truth as I know it to be. I see nothing wrong in that.

By 'walks in lockstep against any of the norms in his country' ... yes, I think I understand. I choose not to bend to social terraforming efforts perpetually made by the Left. I think I am right to do that. I won't apologise for it.

And, I do it in 'real time'. Lefties propagandise (e.g Trump supposedly saying we should all inject ourselves with bleach !) and I reject their propaganda. Again, I'm right to do so.

Do you think I'm not ?



I went with the wisdom of the time.



I went with the wisdom of the time.

In each case, I followed realism, to the best of my ability. And, I adapted to changes. In that way, I remained attuned to the best decisions possible at the time they were made.

Adaptation, recognising truth when it appears, and not rejecting it through illogical immovability, is the best way.



Time will tell.

What we haven't done (and I think we urgently should) is to assume that the Georgian Governor's reckless irresponsibility threatens, t least potentially, a second Covid-19 pandemic wave. We need to interweave that impending prospect into our thinking. We haven't yet done that.

Trust me, though ... if that does transpire to be the truth of it, my Govenment WILL meet that reality, and take measures designed to meet it. And, yes, we will be wise to obey what they say ... and monumentally stupid if we don't.



Truth be told ... who really knows ?

We have to assume a vaccine will be found, and our trials, ongoing from Thursday, may find one. Our best minds are working on the assumption that we may succeed.

Should we assume we won't ?

There is but one overall truth in play here. The very best way to proceed, now and for always is to adapt to conditions as you must. Our Government has done that, and will continue to.

It is right to.


This post highlights the difference. Our government is by the people, not the other way around. It was the great difference those old, dead guys created with that piece of parchment. We don't follow the government, it follows the people.

It's a Republic, for the simple reason that most of us do not have the time or interest to vote on every single thing that a government needs to address-we vote for the representative to vote for our interest, not on issues. We do so for a term, not willy nilly when we just get pissed at them. At least until the Democrats and Trump, but we'll see how that turns out.

Truth is, your system seems quite silly to many. Boom, PM is out. Boom, he swayed some votes to stay. Boom, another election. Settled. Whoops, nope no coalition, another vote. Date Changes. Ok then, boom. PM stays.

No thanks.

I'm glad you enjoy yours. We do ours.

Good luck with dreams of UK coming out on top of US though, will not happen.

[Drummond]

Land deeds and titles seem to be pretty consistent.

Trust me, Sassy, when I say you were VERY lucky.

Many Americans make visits to the UK, with the intention of achieving just what you have. Very few succeed.

Most come to a full stop once their reference to civil registrations itself ends.

The point is that absolutely nobody compelled, or suggested it was any sort of inviolable duty, to keep parish records, or to accurately maintain them. So, records that otherwise might have existed, actually didn't.

In your case, they did. Yours is the exception, though, not the rule.

Congratulations.

[Drummond]

I'm willing to bet the minute you or a loved one gets put on a ventilator your tune changes.

Charming.

What leads you to this conclusion ?

Do you even understand adherence to high principle ?

I'm not going to speculate on what the reaction to your fictitious scenario would've been. It's not my place to do so. Neither is it yours.


Or if deaths start reaching into the hundreds of thousands or more. Yay, the US will be destroyed

Do I need to comment ?

Your hostility to a truly great country is absolutely disgusting. And .. in your case of course, it's a case of 'biting the hand that feeds you'.

You admit you approve of a destroyed US ? Involving HOW MUCH suffering, death and destruction, Pete, h'mm ?

Are you OK with all that ? Where's your humanity ?

Does it even exist ?


but hey, in your fucked up head, you're totally free. woohoo, winning! The gov wouldn't have to issue edicts if you ass hats would self quarantine and social distance.

Americans are free to make their mistakes. We all are.

My one concern is where one particular mistake will lead us.

I have that concern partly because I care about my own life, but also on purely humanitarian grounds.

But YOU, Pete, can never be accused of humanitarianism. Cheering on the destruction of your own country is as disgustingly despicable as it gets.

You really are one utterly foul little turd, aren't you, Pete ?

[Drummond]

Quite frankly? Fuck yourself. And go ahead and demand an apology for something. Your smugness isn't something I would apologize for. I tried to avoid telling you what a complete dick you're being, but you simply reply with how great you are and I can't understand. And I laugh and move to the next post. Laughter is the best medicine. And yeah yeah "I'll be alive at least", so be it. And why? Because you are so so much smarter than I am. Thinning of the herd to an extent if you will. Perhaps all the stupid people will be gone and the collective IQ will skyrocket and make us that much more better of a country. So not only am I enjoying my freedoms, but contributing to the future success of America.

Folks so intelligent such as yourself, it's got to be tiring after awhile. Me? Not so much. I just go outside with no care in the world, if I die and bring someone with me, so be it. It's much easier living life when you're of the lower IQ segment of society. Not only less thinking and therefore less struggling, but sometimes my stupidity then gets the government for some odd reason to start helping me out. :dunno:

I need remedial courses. I'm gonna join in the fall, perhaps my local community college. I ain't too bright, as you know of course. Perhaps they can catch me up with the ever changing history documents. Sure is a devil of a time to keep up when history is continually rewritten.

While an apology will not be forthcoming, perhaps you'll make do with me bowing down to your superiority and acknowledging you are the supreme winner of DP thread #275,291. But such superiority demands more. Not just acknowledge how you are not only right, but RIGHT, and with such ultimate intelligence and superiority, it only makes sense that you're the winner of every single thread you participate in!!

So while looking to figure out how to insert thy willy in thyself, I will embarrassingly walk away from this thread as the loser I am. As the dumber one. A dead man on the horizon, dead man walking as they say.

Good debate involves a swapping of ideas, of perspectives. Debate proves or disproves their worth. It's a good, logical, dispassionate (ideally so, though far from always) process. It can be highly constructive.

But all this is, Jim, is a rant. An emotional response, largely devoid of logical debating points.

I think you know you're wrong, but you just won't admit it. Pride, & all that, but not to forget a certain respectworthy patriotism and belief in your country's values ... which unfortunately doesn't include adaptation to changing conditions.

Let me ask you about this ...


but you simply reply with how great you are and I can't understand.

Fine. Point me to just ONE example of where I've ever said 'how great I am'. I say I've done nothing of the kind. If you think I have, you've imagined it ... unless, you prove me wrong.

Have at it.

I don't think it's that you can't understand. I think it's that you choose not to. You're seeing what you choose to see.

Try disproving my point of view from a good debating method. Show me the superiority (since this matters so much to you) of your own thinking, and how the Georgian governor's recklessness is a good thing, worthy of praise.

Better that, Jim, than a rant.

Or, just ignore my challenge .. because you can't meet it. Not meeting it has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority, just a loyalty to a position you cannot represent to the point of winning out from it.

It's OK. I get it.

Best wishes.

[jimnyc]

Good debate involves a swapping of ideas, of perspectives.

Understood.

Good debate does NOT have someone DECLARE they are instantly correct. That the opponent knows it and for some reason is ignoring it. And then outright stating that the person may not even comprehend.

Sorry, but in my world, that's not the beginning of a good debate. That's the beginning of someone simply declaring their argument to be superior in advance, and someone rudely stating the other can't comprehend.

That is not debating. That is not swapping ideas. That is not discussing perspectives. It isn't even a form of debating. It's nothing more than someone declaring themselves to know more than the other and to belittle the other at the same time with the comprehension mention in there.

It was demeaning and disrespectful. Nothing more and nothing less. I bowed out before I even bowed out publicly. Not my cup of tea, if you will. And rather than creating a feud of some sort over increasing capitalization and bold letters and declarations of intelligence, I laughed on the side and ignored it. Until you again started in with the disrespect, so I then got pissy.

In my honest opinion, it's not a good trait of someone that always declares being correct, or has the desire to instantly bring someone down with comments such as comprehension, and then ignores that and acts like it didn't happen before my very eyes. If someone such as yourself truly had a desire to discuss things, even debate things, you sure have a strange way of showing it. My opinion, declare it incorrect and yourself correct, it matters not to me when I won't even entertain a full discussion when someone does such.

[Black Diamond]

I'm willing to bet the minute you or a loved one gets put on a ventilator your tune changes. Or if deaths start reaching into the hundreds of thousands or more. Yay, the US will be destroyed, but hey, in your fucked up head, you're totally free. woohoo, winning! The gov wouldn't have to issue edicts if you ass hats would self quarantine and social distance.

Ahh if it were your loved one you wouldn't think that way.

Same weak argument is brought up every time we go to war. Really is a dick move but I am not surprised you went there.

[Abbey Marie]

In honor of all the Pennsylvanians I just saw walking in the park without masks.


12545

[Drummond]

This post highlights the difference. Our government is by the people, not the other way around. It was the great difference those old, dead guys created with that piece of parchment. We don't follow the government, it follows the people.

Sounds great. But, still, I see from your system what I also see from mine, at election time. Namely, electioneering.

Each side says what it represents. Speeches are given, describing manifesto commitments. Each side says what it WILL do if only you'll vote for them. You follow one side or the other.

Is there any reverse process, in your system, where if a disapproving crowd being lectured to can have their say, and by the time the candidate next appears, he reflects all the changes his disapproving crowd said they wanted instituted ?

Admittedly, there's no such process in my system (& especially from the Left !!). Is there one, in yours ? Please tell me about it.


It's a Republic, for the simple reason that most of us do not have the time or interest to vote on every single thing that a government needs to address-we vote for the representative to vote for our interest, not on issues. We do so for a term, not willy nilly when we just get pissed at them. At least until the Democrats and Trump, but we'll see how that turns out.

So ... where's the accountability, other than the freedom to vote out a Government you don't like ? That's just what we have here.

Explain it. What am I missing here ?


Truth is, your system seems quite silly to many. Boom, PM is out. Boom, he swayed some votes to stay. Boom, another election. Settled. Whoops, nope no coalition, another vote. Date Changes. Ok then, boom. PM stays.

No thanks.

I'm glad you enjoy yours. We do ours.

Do I enjoy mine ?? Sometimes mine is aggravating in the extreme. That dysfunctionality last year, over Brexit, showed my system in its worst light. Yes. We were nothing short of pathetic.

I can only say that, when it DOES work, it works well. It currently is, even given today's 'virtual' Parliament, where most MP's discuss, question, etc via Internet video link (our MP's are as intent upon observing lockdown rules as everybody else needs to be).

Yours .. I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment on (.. how INFERIOR of me, eh, Jim ?). But pettiness does sometimes seem to be the order of the day, from Trump's Twitter sideswipes, to Pelosi ripping up a speech in highly theatrical manner.

It may well be that your system of Government is highly superior (aargh, there's that word !!) to my own. But it does have an Achilles heel to it. Namely, adaptability to real-time events.

Your Georgian governor threatens the United States. Ideally, your Government would step in, and stop him. But, it isn't, and it won't.

I hope (unlike Pete, who will probably enjoy it all, but he IS a Leftie) that the death toll suffered by The People won't be too great (indeed, one extra unnecessary death is one too many).


Good luck with dreams of UK coming out on top of US though, will not happen.

I don't see it that way. I want the US to adopt realism. Then, differences may be meaningless.

[SassyLady]

And to hell with a certain Georgian Governor who'll happily threaten us all, with his - dogmatic - recklessness.

Interesting facts leading to logical conclusion that it's ok to reopen.




Rt does not get talked about a lot. It is the measure of a virus’s ability to reproduce. If Rt is above 1, the virus will spread. If it is below 1, the virus will stop spreading. Healthcare experts have been telling us since March that people needed to shelter-in-place to get Rt below 1. Once it was below one, we could start slowly reopening.
In Georgia, the state is below one. Not only that, but daily new cases continue to fall. Here are the present numbers in Georgia based on daily new cases:
• April 14: 830
• April 15: 634
• April 16: 661
• April 17: 537
• April 18: 256
• April 19: 157
• April 20: 96
• April 21: 23
America needs to reopen and get back to business.
It doesn’t need to happen all at once, but the gradual, phased, and responsible reopening pushed by Governors like Brian Kemp will put Americans back to work and avoid a second Great Depression.


https://renewedright.com/dr-fauci-said-one-thing-about-reopening-the-economy-that-will-leave-you-speechless/

[Drummond]

Understood.

Good debate does NOT have someone DECLARE they are instantly correct. That the opponent knows it and for some reason is ignoring it. And then outright stating that the person may not even comprehend.

Granted, it's not a great tactic (if it's meant as one). But the answer's obvious ... the debating opponent proves his / her opposition wrong !!

Good debate, if that happens, is preserved. In fact, it's been actively provoked into happening.


Sorry, but in my world, that's not the beginning of a good debate. That's the beginning of someone simply declaring their argument to be superior in advance, and someone rudely stating the other can't comprehend.

That's your interpretation. But my answer's the same. An opportunity is there to disprove your opponent's contentions. Why not take it ?


That is not debating. That is not swapping ideas. That is not discussing perspectives. It isn't even a form of debating. It's nothing more than someone declaring themselves to know more than the other and to belittle the other at the same time with the comprehension mention in there.

What was your rant, then ?


It was demeaning and disrespectful. Nothing more and nothing less. I bowed out before I even bowed out publicly. Not my cup of tea, if you will. And rather than creating a feud of some sort over increasing capitalization and bold letters and declarations of intelligence, I laughed on the side and ignored it. Until you again started in with the disrespect, so I then got pissy.

You bowed out, then you bowed right back in.

What you call getting 'pissy', I call a rant. It was emotionalism, as I said, devoid of debating points.


In my honest opinion, it's not a good trait of someone that always declares being correct, or has the desire to instantly bring someone down with comments such as comprehension, and then ignores that and acts like it didn't happen before my very eyes. If someone such as yourself truly had a desire to discuss things, even debate things, you sure have a strange way of showing it. My opinion, declare it incorrect and yourself correct, it matters not to me when I won't even entertain a full discussion when someone does such.

You mean, I can be provocative ?

Very simply, you choose to debate, or you don't. You choose to prove me wrong, or you don't. The challenge is perpetually there, no matter WHAT I post, for you to achieve precisely that at any time.

But if you don't, and if instead all I get is a rant / being 'pissy', and absolutely nothing else, least of all open-mindedness .... what good is any of that ?

If you think you're right, prove it to me.

There's my challenge.

I hope you don't duck it.

Up to you, of course.

[Drummond]

Interesting facts leading to logical conclusion that it's ok to reopen.

https://renewedright.com/dr-fauci-said-one-thing-about-reopening-the-economy-that-will-leave-you-speechless/

I've seen the BBC regurgitate something remarkably similar. But I'm not sure I'm convinced.

Right at the opening days of the Wuhan outbreak, how many people did it take to spark off an entire pandemic ? Did the entire city of Wuhan simultaneously infect neighbouring cities, and in that way, the breakout was achieved ?

I think it safe to assume that the entire pandemic took off from a starting point of a very few people, perhaps even just one.

How many cases of Covid-19 does Georgia currently have ? More than a few ?

What happens if, say, two uninfected people spend time in an environment surrounded by infected people ?

One, just one, Georgian citizen manages to infect somebody from another State. That newly infected person boards a train, or worse, a plane. The plane lands in the UK.

A seven hour flight (or, it was when I travelled to New York, many years ago) is ample to infect a sizeable percentage of the passengers on board. They land. Even if our people at Heathrow do their duty and do temperature tests (we've had anecdotal accounts of none being performed) ... there will be NO sign of infection after a mere seven hours. But, the infection is there, and then, it'll spread to other Londoners. Or any others, with their own travel plans ..

There is one flaw in my argument, though. We in the UK are not nearly as irresponsible as your Governor. We - currently - are in full lockdown. That might change in the weeks ahead. But, right now, it's fully in place, ordered by a responsible Government, doing the right thing, and workers and businesses, obeying, and doing the right thing. Consequently .. there's no passenger air traffic going to Heathrow.

For as long as that's true, we'll hopefully be shielded from the Governor's insane edict.

But your people will not be, not least because your Government hasn't intervened.

I fervently hope that as few people die as possible.

[Kathianne]

I've seen the BBC regurgitate something remarkably similar. But I'm not sure I'm convinced.

Right at the opening days of the Wuhan outbreak, how many people did it take to spark off an entire pandemic ? Did the entire city of Wuhan simultaneously infect neighbouring cities, and in that way, the breakout was achieved ?

I think it safe to assume that the entire pandemic took off from a starting point of a very few people, perhaps even just one.

How many cases of Covid-19 does Georgia currently have ? More than a few ?

What happens if, say, two uninfected people spend time in an environment surrounded by infected people ?

One, just one, Georgian citizen manages to infect somebody from another State. That newly infected person boards a train, or worse, a plane. The plane lands in the UK.

A seven hour flight (or, it was when I travelled to New York, many years ago) is ample to infect a sizeable percentage of the passengers on board. They land. Even if our people at Heathrow do their duty and do temperature tests (we've had anecdotal accounts of none being performed) ... there will be NO sign of infection after a mere seven hours. But, the infection is there, and then, it'll spread to other Londoners. Or any others, with their own travel plans ..

There is one flaw in my argument, though. We in the UK are not nearly as irresponsible as your Governor. We - currently - are in full lockdown. That might change in the weeks ahead. But, right now, it's fully in place, ordered by a responsible Government, doing the right thing, and workers and businesses, obeying, and doing the right thing. Consequently .. there's no passenger air traffic going to Heathrow.

For as long as that's true, we'll hopefully be shielded from the Governor's insane edict.

But your people will not be, not least because your Government hasn't intervened.

I fervently hope that as few people die as possible.

What you do not address, what if there is no vaccine? Then you have the same problem months or years from now, with less percentage that have some antibodies, regardless of how weak they may be. Or do you all stay hunkered down, hoping the rest of the world's survivors send you sustenance?

[Drummond]

What you do not address, what if there is no vaccine? Then you have the same problem months or years from now, with less percentage that have some antibodies, regardless of how weak they may be. Or do you all stay hunkered down, hoping the rest of the world's survivors send you sustenance?

Well .. after a very prolonged hunkering down, would we be in any fit state to pay (or meaningfully pay !) for the sustenance they send ?

Who'd be in a good enough shape, given the reality of the world you're describing, to send that sustenance, anyway ?

If there is no vaccine ... God help us. Or, God help you (from the Georgian Governor, or other comparatively reckless souls who help generate a needlesss spike, long before we 'need' one). God help us all, wherever and whoever we are.

The point is I can't properly address what I don't know about. Maybe there is no vaccine on the cards, which in the fullness of time, over years, will chronically threaten the very existence of most of the world's societies, as death rates massively eat into a society's very viabiity to operate and be whole.

But since we don't know that is true, we have to assume that we'll get one (Oxford duly pulling its finger out, Big Time ??). Of course, it'll take a time to produce all the number of doses required, and if your Georgian Governor successfully creates his second pandemic, the job of producing far greater numbers of doses will definitely take far longer. Not a help !!

[Kathianne]

Well .. after a very prolonged hunkering down, would we be in any fit state to pay (or meaningfully pay !) for the sustenance they send ? My point exactly. You'd be physically shrunk and economically non-existent. No thanks.


Who'd be in a good enough shape, given the reality of the world you're describing, to send that sustenance, anyway ? all of those about the .1 that didn't die. They'd be going along, with less customers, but less competition too.


If there is no vaccine ... God help us. Or, God help you (from the Georgian Governor, or other comparatively reckless souls who help generate a needlesss spike, long before we 'need' one). God help us all, wherever and whoever we are. Wrong, you've become irrational. Look at Sweden, which chose wrong, imo, from the get go, but will recover with heavy hearts. Many more will not get sick, some mildly sick, some seriously sick and recover. Some will die. Few will die, but each one hurts.


The point is I can't properly address what I don't know about. Maybe there is no vaccine on the cards, which in the fullness of time, over years, will chronically threaten the very existence of most of the world's societies, as death rates massively eat into a society's very viabiity to operate and be whole.

But since we don't know that is true, we have to assume that we'll get one (Oxford duly pulling its finger out, Big Time ??). Of course, it'll take a time to produce all the number of doses required, and if your Georgian Governor successfully creates his second pandemic, the job of producing far greater numbers of doses will definitely take far longer. Not a help !!

Nope, you won't know what should be done until your government tells you what to do.

[Drummond]

My point exactly. You'd be physically shrunk and economically non-existent. No thanks.

Not sure I agree ... your conclusion is a harsh one. We'd be very significantly diminished, but ... non-existent ?

If Covid conditions continued for several years, and our hunkering down was still a feature of life, maybe. The longer the duration, the greater the damage, obviously. But (I'm not sure which) ours is the 5th or 6th strongest economy out there.

But try seeing this from the opposite end of the spectrum. We could emerge very quickly from lockdown, restart businesses. Hell, we could engineer our own pandemic, if we worked at it !! Businesses in full swing - but - with rapidly diminishing workforces.

A good or a bad outcome ?

It could be a survivable one, but through using a methodology no American would ever like. Simply, to maintain needed businesses, sections of the population could be retrained ... BY GOVERNMENT ORDER. Forget choosing your job, not if you were needed elsewhere. Freedom of choice becomes subservient to a State machinery needing to employ more draconan powers than we know at present, just to ensure the best survival possible.

The future of Covid-19 is not known, in any case. Will it mutate ? Will it become more deadly ? One thing is certain ... the longer it can survive, the greater its opportunity to mutate ! Prematurely emerging from lockdowns GIVES THE VIRUS A NEW LEASE OF LIFE.

So, those who do emerge early, might be helping that mutation along ... whereas, staying in lockdown and starving the virus, might just stop that from happening.

Of course, all this is conjecture. I do know just the one thing. Premature endings of lockdowns, does help the virus. Helps it to kill.

I've seen a headline from the BBC's Red Button service. It says - I quote:


US States partially reopen as virus deaths reach 50,000

The inference, to me, hints at a choice for which there is no rational explanation.

Reading the article, I note that Georgia is no longer alone. Oklahoma and Alaska are following suit.

Wonderful !! Just what we all need. Whoopee !!


... They'd be going along, with less customers, but less competition too. Wrong, you've become irrational. Look at Sweden, which chose wrong, imo, from the get go, but will recover with heavy hearts. Many more will not get sick, some mildly sick, some seriously sick and recover. Some will die. Few will die, but each one hurts.

Will deaths happening, happen uniformly, with uniform impact, across all industries and businesses ?

Will Covid mutate ? Will that new lease of life enable the mutation ? How can you possibly know that 'few will die' ?


Nope, you won't know what should be done until your government tells you what to do.

Here, you're correct. Reason: the Government follows scientific advice, and closely monitors events and trends. Its scientists are some of the best around. If policy changes, it'll be fully reactive to ongoing occurrences. It'll constitute the very best advice and informed direction we can have.

Laws will be passed, as necessary, to ensure social discipline.

OR ... we can have a population of lawbreakers.

We can have people saying, 'Yes, we know you've got your experts and your highly developed strategies, BUT, we don't care. Don't listen to them, what do the best scientific minds know ?'

Laws are passed, but not obeyed. Out of what ... sheer wanton ignorance ?

The police are run ragged, trying to enforce the law. Failing, perhaps because of their own falling numbers, anarchy breaks out.

People do what the hell they choose. The Government is either powerless, or, it calls in the Army to help keep order ... IF they, themselves, can.

Meanwhile, our entire population diminishes in size, as the virus has its field day.

For the sake of showing Government authority a lack of respect and obedience .. the social order breaks down, In the name 'of freedom'.

Happy days, eh, Kathianne ?

Luckily, all this comes out of my own imagination, for now. But not respecting Governmental authority, and the wisdom underpinning it, is a recipe for disaster.

... and ... we now have three rogue States to worry about.

Will your Government permit it ? If they do, how bad will things get ?

You tell me, Kath.

[Kathianne]

Not sure I agree ... your conclusion is a harsh one. We'd be very significantly diminished, but ... non-existent ?

If Covid conditions continued for several years, and our hunkering down was still a feature of life, maybe. The longer the duration, the greater the damage, obviously. But (I'm not sure which) ours is the 5th or 6th strongest economy out there.

But try seeing this from the opposite end of the spectrum. We could emerge very quickly from lockdown, restart businesses. Hell, we could engineer our own pandemic, if we worked at it !! Businesses in full swing - but - with rapidly diminishing workforces.

A good or a bad outcome ?

It could be a survivable one, but through using a methodology no American would ever like. Simply, to maintain needed businesses, sections of the population could be retrained ... BY GOVERNMENT ORDER. Forget choosing your job, not if you were needed elsewhere. Freedom of choice becomes subservient to a State machinery needing to employ more draconan powers than we know at present, just to ensure the best survival possible.

The future of Covid-19 is not known, in any case. Will it mutate ? Will it become more deadly ? One thing is certain ... the longer it can survive, the greater its opportunity to mutate ! Prematurely emerging from lockdowns GIVES THE VIRUS A NEW LEASE OF LIFE.

So, those who do emerge early, might be helping that mutation along ... whereas, staying in lockdown and starving the virus, might just stop that from happening.

Of course, all this is conjecture. I do know just the one thing. Premature endings of lockdowns, does help the virus. Helps it to kill.

I've seen a headline from the BBC's Red Button service. It says - I quote:



The inference, to me, hints at a choice for which there is no rational explanation.

Reading the article, I note that Georgia is no longer alone. Oklahoma and Alaska are following suit.

Wonderful !! Just what we all need. Whoopee !!



Will deaths happening, happen uniformly, with uniform impact, across all industries and businesses ?

Will Covid mutate ? Will that new lease of life enable the mutation ? How can you possibly know that 'few will die' ?



Here, you're correct. Reason: the Government follows scientific advice, and closely monitors events and trends. Its scientists are some of the best around. If policy changes, it'll be fully reactive to ongoing occurrences. It'll constitute the very best advice and informed direction we can have.

Laws will be passed, as necessary, to ensure social discipline.

OR ... we can have a population of lawbreakers.

We can have people saying, 'Yes, we know you've got your experts and your highly developed strategies, BUT, we don't care. Don't listen to them, what do the best scientific minds know ?'

Laws are passed, but not obeyed. Out of what ... sheer wanton ignorance ?

The police are run ragged, trying to enforce the law. Failing, perhaps because of their own falling numbers, anarchy breaks out.

People do what the hell they choose. The Government is either powerless, or, it calls in the Army to help keep order ... IF they, themselves, can.

Meanwhile, our entire population diminishes in size, as the virus has its field day.

For the sake of showing Government authority a lack of respect and obedience .. the social order breaks down, In the name 'of freedom'.

Happy days, eh, Kathianne ?

Luckily, all this comes out of my own imagination, for now. But not respecting Governmental authority, and the wisdom underpinning it, is a recipe for disaster.

... and ... we now have three rogue States to worry about.

Will your Government permit it ? If they do, how bad will things get ?

You tell me, Kath.
I’m on phone, start work soon.

After years or months of hunkering down while others adjust to opening and closing parts over and over, those just coming out will have little protection against a virus without vaccine.

I’ll look at the rest from home or during breaks, I truly suck at texting.

[Drummond]

I’m on phone, start work soon.

After years or months of hunkering down while others adjust to opening and closing parts over and over, those just coming out will have little protection against a virus without vaccine.

I’ll look at the rest from home or during breaks, I truly suck at texting.

I've got an answer for that ... I don't text at all. Never have. Never want to. I either put my laptop through its gruelling paces, or I don't type at all ... :cool::cool:

You make a good point, so far as it goes. I can't help but concede it.

There's a problem, though, and it has to do with whether (a) the BBC has accurately reported, and (b) whether the WHO's advice should be fully heeded.

According to the BBC, the WHO advises that there's little reason to believe that those who've recovered from Covid-19 can be assumed to have an immunity from it.

If that's both accurate and true, people contracting Covid-19 may get it, then (hopefully) recover, but then, may recontract it, again and again !!

Would repeated illnesses wear away at the body's abilities to further survive ? Much as seas wear away coastlines, would Covid increasingly debilitate its survivors ?

People emerging from prolonged hunkerings would have none of that to contend with ... initially ......