Small Example of Dropping Social Distancing too Early

[Kathianne]

Related to this earlier thread: http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?69214-Thinking-about-no-resuscitate-laws&p=954140&highlight=liberty+university#post954140

On bringing back their students:

https://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2020/03/liberty-university-brings-back-students-coronavirus/


Liberty University Brings Back Its Students — And Coronavirus, Too

“We’ve lost the ability to corral this thing,” Dr. Thomas W. Eppes Jr. said he told Mr. Falwell. But he did not urge him to close the school. “I just am not going to be so presumptuous as to say, ‘This is what you should do and this is what you shouldn’t do,’” Dr. Eppes said in an interview.
So Mr. Falwell — a staunch ally of President Trump and an influential voice in the evangelical world — reopened the university last week, igniting a firestorm, epidemiologically and otherwise. As of Friday, Dr. Eppes said, nearly a dozen Liberty students were sick with symptoms that suggest Covid-19, the disease caused by the virus. Three were referred to local hospital centers for testing. Another eight were told to self-isolate.
“Liberty will be notifying the community as deemed appropriate and required by law,” Mr. Falwell said in an interview on Sunday when confronted with the numbers. He added that any student returning now to campus would be required to self-quarantine for 14 days.





Full link to article the above is from: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/us/politics/coronavirus-liberty-university-falwell.html

[Abbey Marie]

And there you have it.

We will all die from either stubbornness, greed, or stupidity.

Secondary cause: COVID-19

[SassyLady]

And there you have it.

We will all die from either stubbornness, greed, or stupidity.

Secondary cause: COVID-19

A lot will die from someone else's stubborness, greed and stupidity.

[FakeNewsSux]

Since we've heard from the DNC's house propaganda organ, the New York Times, just wondering if anyone was interested in Liberty's side of the story. If so, here it is:

https://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=379359

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Since we've heard from the DNC's house propaganda organ, the New York Times, just wondering if anyone was interested in Liberty's side of the story. If so, here it is:

https://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=379359
We should have known the democrap propaganda wing was going to POUNCE in any way possible on Liberty University, since it's touted by RUSH LIMBAUGH and is a CONSERVATIVE, ANTI LEFTIST enclave.

Fake news strikes again. Trash the conservatives. Good Lord the left and their freakin' garbage media toilet is getting old.

[Kathianne]

Seriously, it's just as wrong for the right to applaud poor civic behavior from their side, as it is from the left. Yes, the difference is that some on the right will criticize, always have.

If this stunt hadn't been pulled by Falwell, the Times wouldn't have written the article. It's not just the fake news that have criticized, but medical professionals too. There are reasons that the students should be off campus, not together, just like they shouldn't be on the beaches, in parks playing basketball, etc.

But you all keep making excuses for the right, regardless of the outcome. Oh yeah, keep bitching about how you give a damn about good civic behaviors, like the founders expected.

[Black Diamond]

The new york slimes is, well, slimy.
Having said that, I don't understand liberty university bringing students back for normal classes at this point.. Whether they have tested positive or not. Whether students have been in new york or not, etc

[Kathianne]

The new york slimes is, well, slimy.
Having said that, I don't understand liberty university bringing students back for normal classes at this point.. Whether they have tested positive or not. Whether students have been in new york or not, etc

I've criticized the Times and WaPo and the rest for more than a decade. When it comes to fake news, meaning biases and putting the others in the worst light possible, gateway, breitbart, and others do that too. Doesn't mean that the core of what any of them writing is not true, they all present in the worst light possible for those there bias is against.

[Kathianne]

The new york slimes is, well, slimy.
Having said that, I don't understand liberty university bringing students back for normal classes at this point.. Whether they have tested positive or not. Whether students have been in new york or not, etc

Me neither. They claimed there were courses that couldn't be offered online, but now that's what they are doing. So the bottom line, they just got kids into dorms for the most part, but are offering only online.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

OK... I take back everything I said... I'm wrong for criticizing the democrat propaganda wing. They're pillars of virtue and truth... :rolleyes:

[Kathianne]

OK... I take back everything I said... I'm wrong for criticizing the democrat propaganda wing. They're pillars of virtue and truth... :rolleyes:
Nah, just do what you do.

[FakeNewsSux]

Seriously, it's just as wrong for the right to applaud poor civic behavior from their side, as it is from the left. Yes, the difference is that some on the right will criticize, always have.

If this stunt hadn't been pulled by Falwell, the Times wouldn't have written the article. It's not just the fake news that have criticized, but medical professionals too. There are reasons that the students should be off campus, not together, just like they shouldn't be on the beaches, in parks playing basketball, etc.

But you all keep making excuses for the right, regardless of the outcome. Oh yeah, keep bitching about how you give a damn about good civic behaviors, like the founders expected.

Seriously, I agree with you on the poor civic behavior topic. But I seriously wonder if you bothered to watch the CNN interview with Dr. Falwell or read the University's response to your original post. If you did, I'm not sure you could honestly call his decision a stunt. They did not go back to business as usual. They left the dorms open to the international students and others stranded in Lynchburg. With all the travel bans in place, what else could they do? Force all students out onto the streets with no place to go?

Gov. Northam (no friend of Dr. Falwell or Liberty U.), sent his State Health Inspectors in and they came away complimenting Liberty on the accommodations made for the students and said Liberty should serve as a model for other operations throughout the State.

Given the NYT's track record on Russia, Russia, Russia, the Mueller Investigation, the Impeachment Trial and the latest crisis, COVID-19, I prefer to look a little deeper into a story before blindly accepting the Times' reportage. I guess that's how sensationalized reporting on the latest unforgivable stunt by an Evangelical university leads to opinions like this on the editorial page: https://townhall.com/columnists/michaelbrown/2020/03/30/are-white-evangelicals-responsible-for-the-spread-of-covid19-in-america-n2565882

All I did was present Falwell/Liberty's side of the argument without comment. I don't believe I made excuses for anyone's behavior or got bitchy about not being credited with upholding the honor of our founding fathers. I just felt that what Liberty did was the christian thing to do.

[Kathianne]

Seriously, I agree with you on the poor civic behavior topic. But I seriously wonder if you bothered to watch the CNN interview with Dr. Falwell or read the University's response to your original post. If you did, I'm not sure you could honestly call his decision a stunt. They did not go back to business as usual. They left the dorms open to the international students and others stranded in Lynchburg. With all the travel bans in place, what else could they do? Force all students out onto the streets with no place to go?

Gov. Northam (no friend of Dr. Falwell or Liberty U.), sent his State Health Inspectors in and they came away complimenting Liberty on the accommodations made for the students and said Liberty should serve as a model for other operations throughout the State.

Given the NYT's track record on Russia, Russia, Russia, the Mueller Investigation, the Impeachment Trial and the latest crisis, COVID-19, I prefer to look a little deeper into a story before blindly accepting the Times' reportage. I guess that's how sensationalized reporting on the latest unforgivable stunt by an Evangelical university leads to opinions like this on the editorial page: https://townhall.com/columnists/michaelbrown/2020/03/30/are-white-evangelicals-responsible-for-the-spread-of-covid19-in-america-n2565882

All I did was present Falwell/Liberty's side of the argument without comment. I don't believe I made excuses for anyone's behavior or got bitchy about not being credited with upholding the honor of our founding fathers. I just felt that what Liberty did was the christian thing to do.

I do not watch CNN, I saw snippets on FOX and read about it. My take-a-way from the get go, not the Times article is that Falwell is a sycophant of Trump's, something I'm not sure the president would like as much as many would assume.

I think Falwell heard Trump's remarks about 'can't stay shut down,' and wanted to 'back him.' Hell of a way to do it. Then others come along and say, yeah! Real patriotism.

[FakeNewsSux]

I do not watch CNN, I saw snippets on FOX and read about it. My take-a-way from the get go, not the Times article is that Falwell is a sycophant of Trump's, something I'm not sure the president would like as much as many would assume.

I think Falwell heard Trump's remarks about 'can't stay shut down,' and wanted to 'back him.' Hell of a way to do it. Then others come along and say, yeah! Real patriotism.

ICYMI from my post on another thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PJC9awbBtM

If you can look past your personal distaste for the man and listen to the story outside the filter of American Pravda (NYT), I'm not sure how the actual story jives with your interpretation. Also, this was no softball interview. Trust me, I'm sure CNN hates Dr. Falwell even more than you do.

[Kathianne]

Tell me one good reason this was a good idea, I really don't give a damn about his intentions. If Liberty is allowed to do it, why not all? They are somehow superior?

You don't say that following the guidelines are imperative, except for this person or place. Food is necessary, education today is not, especially when most of the work can be accomplished online. What can't be, can be done later.

[FakeNewsSux]

Tell me one good reason this was a good idea, I really don't give a damn about his intentions. If Liberty is allowed to do it, why not all? They are somehow superior?

You don't say that following the guidelines are imperative, except for this person or place. Food is necessary, education today is not, especially when most of the work can be accomplished online. What can't be, can be done later.

As for one good reason that this was a good idea, providing shelter for international students who, through no fault of their own, were stranded in this country with no other place to go. They are being provided with a safe place to live and eat instead of being cast out on the street or becoming wards of the State at a time when the State has far greater problems to deal with.

If you bothered to watch the interview you would know that all classes are being held online with the exception of minimal class size labs which are far less crowded than the local mini mart or grocery store which don't seem to be a problem.

I believe that Liberty was far more socially responsible than any of the Ivy League schools that simply shuttered their doors and left all students to fend for themselves while sitting on their multi billion dollar endowments.

[Kathianne]

As for one good reason that this was a good idea, providing shelter for international students who, through no fault of their own, were stranded in this country with no other place to go. They are being provided with a safe place to live and eat instead of being cast out on the street or becoming wards of the State at a time when the State has far greater problems to deal with.

If you bothered to watch the interview you would know that all classes are being held online with the exception of minimal class size labs which are far less crowded than the local mini mart or grocery store which don't seem to be a problem.

I believe that Liberty was far more socially responsible than any of the Ivy League schools that simply shuttered their doors and left all students to fend for themselves while sitting on their multi billion dollar endowments.

Sure they were. IOW, since the owner of the business agrees with your political point of view, they do not do anything to criticize. That of course does not mitigate any other university that did the same.

Personally I put the American students there on the same level as the owner, anti-American for their own interests.

[Kathianne]

This virus is unforgiving in those making bad choices:

https://elemental.medium.com/hold-the-line-17231c48ff17


...

You should perceive your entire family to function as a single individual unit: If one person puts themselves at risk, everyone in the unit is at risk. Seemingly small social chains get large and complex with alarming speed. If your son visits his girlfriend, and you later sneak over for coffee with a neighbor, your neighbor is now connected to the infected office worker that your son’s girlfriend’s mother shook hands with. This sounds silly, it’s not. This is not a joke or hypothetical. We as epidemiologists see it borne out in the data time and time again. Conversely, any break in that chain breaks disease transmission along that chain.


In contrast to hand-washing and other personal measures, social distancing measures are not about individuals, they are about societies working in unison. These measures also require sustained action before results are evident. It is hard (even for me) to conceptualize how on a population level ‘one quick little get together’ can undermine the entire framework of a public health intervention, but it can. I promise you it can. I promise. I promise. I promise. You can’t cheat it. People are already itching to cheat on the social distancing precautions just a “little”- a short playdate, a quick haircut, or picking up a needless item from the store. From a transmission dynamics standpoint, this very quickly recreates a highly connected social network that undermines much of the good work our communities have done thus far.


This outbreak will not be overcome in one grand, sweeping gesture, but rather by the collection of individual choices we make in the coming months. This virus is unforgiving to unwise choices. As this epidemic continues, it will be easy to be drawn to the idea that what we are doing isn’t working and we may feel compelled to “cheat” with unnecessary breaches of social distancing measures. By knowing what to expect, and knowing the critical importance of maintaining these measures, my hope is to encourage continued community spirit and strategizing to persevere in this time of uncertainty.

[FakeNewsSux]

Sure they were. IOW, since the owner of the business agrees with your political point of view, they do not do anything to criticize. That of course does not mitigate any other university that did the same.

Personally I put the American students there on the same level as the owner, anti-American for their own interests.

Initially, I was going to respond by saying you don't know me or my political point of view vis-a-vis this matter. But then I realized that I was wrong. Apparently, you are able to look into the heart of anyone and quickly devine their true intentions and feelings.

As for your bile spewed at the American students that chose to come back to campus, weren't they fleeing a dangerous situation in NY according to your original post on this thread? BTW, has anyone heard whether any of these students tested positive for COVID-19? I'm sure the silence from the media is a very reliable indicator that none of them did. And how does your indictment of these students as selfish anti-Americans jive with your statement from earlier today: "now acting unconstitutionally towards other state's peoples. FL, TX, RI all attempting to ban people from hard hit states implying that their growing problems are from these folks,"?

[Kathianne]

Initially, I was going to respond by saying you don't know me or my political point of view vis-a-vis this matter. But then I realized that I was wrong. Apparently, you are able to look into the heart of anyone and quickly devine their true intentions and feelings.

As for your bile spewed at the American students that chose to come back to campus, weren't they fleeing a dangerous situation in NY according to your original post on this thread? BTW, has anyone heard whether any of these students tested positive for COVID-19? I'm sure the silence from the media is a very reliable indicator that none of them did. And how does your indictment of these students as selfish anti-Americans jive with your statement from earlier today: "now acting unconstitutionally towards other state's peoples. FL, TX, RI all attempting to ban people from hard hit states implying that their growing problems are from these folks,"?

I do not put the 'foreign students' health and safety above Americans. I do not put one state's goal of keeping their economy humming better than others by putting the whole at risk. When a school, state, group of people choose to act badly, against the common good, I will criticize.

I don't care if they are right or left.

The media is not as bad as the sycophants on the left or right.

[FakeNewsSux]

I do not put the 'foreign students' health and safety above Americans. I do not put one state's goal of keeping their economy humming better than others by putting the whole at risk. When a school, state, group of people choose to act badly, against the common good, I will criticize.

I don't care if they are right or left.

The media is not as bad as the sycophants on the left or right.

Sadly, when a school, state, group of people choose to act charitably, for the common good, you will criticize all the same.

Liberty University is not getting rich off of providing housing and food service of last resort for a percentage of its' enrolled students. They are simply trying to do the right thing during an emergency situation. Keeping these people healthy, occupied and segregated from the general population would, I'm sure to most people, be a good thing.

I notice that you didn't have a comment on the NYT Opinion piece, "The Road to Coronavirus Hell Was Paved by Evangelicals" that I linked to in a previous post. Is that because Evangelicals and Trump sycophants are one in the same and you didn't have a problem with the op ed? After all, the media aren't as bad as those types.

[Kathianne]

Sadly, when a school, state, group of people choose to act charitably, for the common good, you will criticize all the same.

Liberty University is not getting rich off of providing housing and food service of last resort for a percentage of its' enrolled students. They are simply trying to do the right thing during an emergency situation. Keeping these people healthy, occupied and segregated from the general population would, I'm sure to most people, be a good thing.

I notice that you didn't have a comment on the NYT Opinion piece, "The Road to Coronavirus Hell Was Paved by Evangelicals" that I linked to in a previous post. Is that because Evangelicals and Trump sycophants are one in the same and you didn't have a problem with the op ed? After all, the media aren't as bad as those types.

LOL! You want to excuse all you agree with, condemn those you disagree with. Fine.

Coronavirus is not the fault of Evangelicals, Trump, the Army, or gremlins. Just China. If not a bio-weapon intentional, it was by silence and allowing literally millions to travel by planes all over the world, especially Western Europe and America. That they've allowed the wet markets reopen, says more than any nonsense from the MSM.

That WHO and the MSM keep putting out CCP propaganda is unforgivable.

I've written a plethora of posts about all these things. Then a few about states like AZ, FL, TX, MI being very selfish and anti-American in their actions. Yes, Liberty University too.

Suck. it. up.

[FakeNewsSux]

LOL! You want to excuse all you agree with, condemn those you disagree with. Fine.

Coronavirus is not the fault of Evangelicals, Trump, the Army, or gremlins. Just China. If not a bio-weapon intentional, it was by silence and allowing literally millions to travel by planes all over the world, especially Western Europe and America. That they've allowed the wet markets reopen, says more than any nonsense from the MSM.

That WHO and the MSM keep putting out CCP propaganda is unforgivable.

I've written a plethora of posts about all these things. Then a few about states like AZ, FL, TX, MI being very selfish and anti-American in their actions. Yes, Liberty University too.

Suck. it. up.

I'm not in the habit of excusing folks for doing the christian thing and other than condemning the leftist media for their agenda driven, anti-American propaganda that they market as news, I'm not sure who I have been condemning? I would say that our opinions about the WHO, MSM, CCP and Chinese actions during this pandemic are in full agreement. The main difference between us appears to be that you are quick to condemn as an enemy of the state anyone who acts in any way other than that which you demand. I see this society as facing a very stressful time, with everyone doing the best they can to survive.

I have not been to work since March 3, my wife's employer is shut down till mid June. My son was laid off from his job yesterday, along with half his coworkers, with a 6 month old child at home. My other son and his wife are both teachers in Milwaukee with three children and the Governor probably won't open the schools until September, if then. Yet you are still going to work, even after feeling sick and only staying home for two days. I don't condemn you for doing that, you are doing what you need to do to survive. But I'm wondering if you could justify your actions if confronted by yourself and the standards you have set out for others?

[Kathianne]

I'm not in the habit of excusing folks for doing the christian thing and other than condemning the leftist media for their agenda driven, anti-American propaganda that they market as news, I'm not sure who I have been condemning? I would say that our opinions about the WHO, MSM, CCP and Chinese actions during this pandemic are in full agreement. The main difference between us appears to be that you are quick to condemn as an enemy of the state anyone who acts in any way other than that which you demand. I see this society as facing a very stressful time, with everyone doing the best they can to survive.

I have not been to work since March 3, my wife's employer is shut down till mid June. My son was laid off from his job yesterday, along with half his coworkers, with a 6 month old child at home. My other son and his wife are both teachers in Milwaukee with three children and the Governor probably won't open the schools until September, if then. Yet you are still going to work, even after feeling sick and only staying home for two days. I don't condemn you for doing that, you are doing what you need to do to survive. But I'm wondering if you could justify your actions if confronted by yourself and the standards you have set out for others?

I am doing what I have to do, for reasons you have no idea of. That is right. You've shown no interest in finding out what I'm about, you just came on and labeled as you will. No problem that you get the same in return, right?

I've too am a certified teacher, that left after being hit by a student and realizing I am not cut out to teach in a title 1 school at this point in my life. I feel for the teachers trying to deal with what has been thrown at them, without really any support. Many schools started using google classroom this year, with minimal training. While Zoom seems to be more effective, some security flaws are making many districts forbid the use. Dumb.

Anyways, I forgive mistakes, it's stupid moves without thought that will make me notice.

Pelosi's stunt at SOTU being one. She's been making them ever faster since.

[Black Diamond]

I've criticized the Times and WaPo and the rest for more than a decade. When it comes to fake news, meaning biases and putting the others in the worst light possible, gateway, breitbart, and others do that too. Doesn't mean that the core of what any of them writing is not true, they all present in the worst light possible for those there bias is against.

I guess what bothers me about the times is they are treated like a holy scroll via pulitzer prizes. I suppose after Obama (and Arafat before him) won the Nobel, I shouldn't have been shocked when NY times journalists win pulitzers for crap.
It's been argued many times there are no real journalists anymore.

[FakeNewsSux]

I am doing what I have to do, for reasons you have no idea of. That is right. You've shown no interest in finding out what I'm about, you just came on and labeled as you will. No problem that you get the same in return, right?

I've too am a certified teacher, that left after being hit by a student and realizing I am not cut out to teach in a title 1 school at this point in my life. I feel for the teachers trying to deal with what has been thrown at them, without really any support. Many schools started using google classroom this year, with minimal training. While Zoom seems to be more effective, some security flaws are making many districts forbid the use. Dumb.

Anyways, I forgive mistakes, it's stupid moves without thought that will make me notice.

Pelosi's stunt at SOTU being one. She's been making them ever faster since.

I'm not sure that I've shown no interest in finding out about you. I believe the last couple of hours and two pages of posts can attest to that! What I found out about you is that you and I are sympatico on almost everything we have been discussing. I also found out that you will do what you need to do to get by. I also found out that you are a worthy debater who insists on having the final word. If I could make one suggestion, try not to obsess over the firehose of apocalyptic "news" from the MSM. There is a reason they want your insides all tied up in knots, looking at your fellow citizens with disdain and distrust. Take care of yourself and the ones you love and everything will take care of itself. Our troubles are great but nothing compared to those suffered for us in Jerusalem 2000 years ago by you know who. Something to remember this Lenten season.

[Black Diamond]

I am doing what I have to do, for reasons you have no idea of. That is right. You've shown no interest in finding out what I'm about, you just came on and labeled as you will. No problem that you get the same in return, right?

I've too am a certified teacher, that left after being hit by a student and realizing I am not cut out to teach in a title 1 school at this point in my life. I feel for the teachers trying to deal with what has been thrown at them, without really any support. Many schools started using google classroom this year, with minimal training. While Zoom seems to be more effective, some security flaws are making many districts forbid the use. Dumb.

Anyways, I forgive mistakes, it's stupid moves without thought that will make me notice.

Pelosi's stunt at SOTU being one. She's been making them ever faster since.
I haven't been a fan of liberty university (fair or not) ever since September 13, 2001 when Falwell selectively blamed sins he had more trouble with than others for for 9/11. Whenever I hear liberty university I don't think good thoughts

[Black Diamond]

I am doing what I have to do, for reasons you have no idea of. That is right. You've shown no interest in finding out what I'm about, you just came on and labeled as you will. No problem that you get the same in return, right?

I've too am a certified teacher, that left after being hit by a student and realizing I am not cut out to teach in a title 1 school at this point in my life. I feel for the teachers trying to deal with what has been thrown at them, without really any support. Many schools started using google classroom this year, with minimal training. While Zoom seems to be more effective, some security flaws are making many districts forbid the use. Dumb.

Anyways, I forgive mistakes, it's stupid moves without thought that will make me notice.

Pelosi's stunt at SOTU being one. She's been making them ever faster since.

Oh and you shouldn't have been hit Complete and unadulterated horseshit

[Kathianne]

Oh and you shouldn't have been hit Complete and unadulterated horseshit
True. Then again I shouldn’t have gotten between two guys that were each over 170, that was dumb. The hit was an accident, at least at me.🥴