UK PM, Boris Johnson, tests positive for Covid-19 [Archive] - Debate Policy

Drummond

03-27-2020, 07:45 AM

Not entirely on topic, but relative... I hope that here in America our president and his inner circle are doing EVERYTHING, HUMANLY, POSSIBLE, to isolate him from coming in contact with the virus. I don't know how old Boris is, but President Trump is getting on in years. I'd hate to lose this president right now. I don't think there's another man like him that's such a workaholic, and seems to relish the stress and challenges of being president.

I do hope Johnson fully recovers though. I think he's definitely a step in the right direction for Britain.

Thanks for your thinking on Boris. I agree, though with one small reservation.

I said in another post that to get elected as London Mayor, you need the support of the Muslim contingent there ? Well, as far as I can recall, that assessment came from Boris. And, as a 'Mayoral-hopeful' several years ago, he did put out the statement that Islam 'is a religion of peace'.

He also claimed that he had an ancestor who was Muslim.

Obviously, these were electioneering efforts from Boris, 'suck-up' ones, to get elected .. and, it worked at the time, his being Khan's immediate predecessor for the job of Mayor. Even so, I've not forgotten what he said. Boris will do what it takes to favour his own interests.

That aside .. we DO have the best man in No 10 Downing St at present (Corbyn was orders of magnitude worse, of course !). I wish him well (Boris, that is).

Now, as for Trump ... I agree, it's vitally important he remains isolated as much as humanly possible from any possible sources of the virus. Your country most certainly does need him, at the helm ! That said ... I've also another small reservation ...

Bearing in mind that my main media outlets are British, and they have their own biases ... ours are giving the clear impression that Trump isn't taking the pandemic seriously enough. They originally asserted that he thought Covid-19 was 'a hoax', & I think that many of our people believe he took that position. But now, we're hearing that Trump wants America 'opened up again, within weeks ... hopefully by Easter'.

Our media are touting that as true, and as thoroughly irresponsible and even as evidence of a callous disrespect for human life to favour the economy, instead.

So, what's the truth ? Is Trump just not realising how dangerous the virus is ?

Or is this just a lot of fake news ? Because it does sound like something our Left might dream up.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 08:06 AM

The second announcement today, just broadcast on BBC News, is that Matt Hancock, our Health Minister, has also tested positive for Covid-19. [Not the best person in our Government to get it !!]

He, too, is continuing to work on (under self-isolation, of course).

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 08:18 AM

Thanks for your thinking on Boris. I agree, though with one small reservation.

I said in another post that to get elected as London Mayor, you need the support of the Muslim contingent there ? Well, as far as I can recall, that assessment came from Boris. And, as a 'Mayoral-hopeful' several years ago, he did put out the statement that Islam 'is a religion of peace'.

He also claimed that he had an ancestor who was Muslim.

Obviously, these were electioneering efforts from Boris, 'suck-up' ones, to get elected .. and, it worked at the time, his being Khan's immediate predecessor for the job of Mayor. Even so, I've not forgotten what he said. Boris will do what it takes to favour his own interests.

That aside .. we DO have the best man in No 10 Downing St at present (Corbyn was orders of magnitude worse, of course !). I wish him well (Boris, that is).

Now, as for Trump ... I agree, it's vitally important he remains isolated as much as humanly possible from any possible sources of the virus. Your country most certainly does need him, at the helm ! That said ... I've also another small reservation ...

Bearing in mind that my main media outlets are British, and they have their own biases ... ours are giving the clear impression that Trump isn't taking the pandemic seriously enough. They originally asserted that he thought Covid-19 was 'a hoax', & I think that many of our people believe he took that position. But now, we're hearing that Trump wants America 'opened up again, within weeks ... hopefully by Easter'.

Our media are touting that as true, and as thoroughly irresponsible and even as evidence of a callous disrespect for human life to favour the economy, instead.

So, what's the truth ? Is Trump just not realising how dangerous the virus is ?

Or is this just a lot of fake news ? Because it does sound like something our Left might dream up.
Fake news... on steroids.

President Trump isn't going to just go ROUGE and willy nilly throw caution to the wind and tell everyone everything is fine and go back to business as usual. Just the implication that he'd do something like that is pure, unadulterated, unhinged, TDS garbage... and in laymen's terms, it's BULL SHIT.

Yes he's mentioned that he'd "like" to see, "maybe," portions of America where restrictions could be lifted because the number of infected people is virtually irrelevant. I think that's wise, because the "one shoe fits all" approach for the entire nation isn't really logical. Of course the self distancing and disinfecting and all the usual precautions should... more than likely will... prevail even though low risk areas are put back to work, but I think it makes sense. The sooner we get America back to work, the less damage we'll suffer to our economy.

But it's definitely a "WE'LL SEE" approach right now. NOTHING will change without first making a full assessment of the situation, and the oh so usual trashing of our president by the world's leftists and their irrational hatred for the man is just more overboard garbage... FAKE NEWS.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 08:21 AM

Thanks for your thinking on Boris. I agree, though with one small reservation.

I said in another post that to get elected as London Mayor, you need the support of the Muslim contingent there ? Well, as far as I can recall, that assessment came from Boris. And, as a 'Mayoral-hopeful' several years ago, he did put out the statement that Islam 'is a religion of peace'.

He also claimed that he had an ancestor who was Muslim.

Obviously, these were electioneering efforts from Boris, 'suck-up' ones, to get elected .. and, it worked at the time, his being Khan's immediate predecessor for the job of Mayor. Even so, I've not forgotten what he said. Boris will do what it takes to favour his own interests.

That aside .. we DO have the best man in No 10 Downing St at present (Corbyn was orders of magnitude worse, of course !). I wish him well (Boris, that is).

Now, as for Trump ... I agree, it's vitally important he remains isolated as much as humanly possible from any possible sources of the virus. Your country most certainly does need him, at the helm ! That said ... I've also another small reservation ...

Bearing in mind that my main media outlets are British, and they have their own biases ... ours are giving the clear impression that Trump isn't taking the pandemic seriously enough. They originally asserted that he thought Covid-19 was 'a hoax', & I think that many of our people believe he took that position. But now, we're hearing that Trump wants America 'opened up again, within weeks ... hopefully by Easter'.

Our media are touting that as true, and as thoroughly irresponsible and even as evidence of a callous disrespect for human life to favour the economy, instead.

So, what's the truth ? Is Trump just not realising how dangerous the virus is ?

Or is this just a lot of fake news ? Because it does sound like something our Left might dream up.
I hope the PM gets well quickly.

As for our president. IMO he started off trying to play down the seriousness, even after the cruise ships and nursing homes started. While he came off callous in many people's opinion-focusing on numbers rather than with compassion. He called the media's reporting 'a hoax,' something he's done many times before. It was then said by the left he was calling the virus a 'hoax.' Not so, even the MSM has repeatedly said so, but no matter, it's from the left.

Then he got very serious, his leadership worked and the media couldn't stand that his approval ratings kept going up. For a very non-Republican, republican, Trump couldn't leave success continue. He basically came out at the beginning of the week and said 'this can't go on. Americans don't want to stay home, they want to get to work. It's going to result in suicides, the cure can't be worse than the illness.'

He then went on to say he'd like to see a return to normal by Easter. He did say it would depend on the data, which the doctors were working on. Then some of his biggest supporters came out with statements of support to get back to normal-for the children and everyone's mental health.

Now it sounds like they are going to look at things state by state, county by county on how tight to keep restrictions. Time will tell.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 09:10 AM

Fake news... on steroids.

President Trump isn't going to just go ROUGE and willy nilly throw caution to the wind and tell everyone everything is fine and go back to business as usual. Just the implication that he'd do something like that is pure, unadulterated, unhinged, TDS garbage... and in laymen's terms, it's BULL SHIT.

Yes he's mentioned that he'd "like" to see, "maybe," portions of America where restrictions could be lifted because the number of infected people is virtually irrelevant. I think that's wise, because the "one shoe fits all" approach for the entire nation isn't really logical. Of course the self distancing and disinfecting and all the usual precautions should... more than likely will... prevail even though low risk areas are put back to work, but I think it makes sense. The sooner we get America back to work, the less damage we'll suffer to our economy.

But it's definitely a "WE'LL SEE" approach right now. NOTHING will change without first making a full assessment of the situation, and the oh so usual trashing of our president by the world's leftists and their irrational hatred for the man is just more overboard garbage... FAKE NEWS.

Thanks for that.

I just tried trawling around for articles addressing what the President had said .... and I didn't even have to open the links. The list on my page showed articles on it from obviously Left wing outlets ... ABC News, NBC, Huffington Post (they opened a UK office some time ago, by the way). Etc.

Enough said. When the Left leads on a story, (especially when the BBC and the Guardian get involved) you know that a propaganda advantage is being fought to win.

So, OK .. I'm heartened. Thanks !

Drummond

03-27-2020, 09:18 AM

I hope the PM gets well quickly.

As for our president. IMO he started off trying to play down the seriousness, even after the cruise ships and nursing homes started. While he came off callous in many people's opinion-focusing on numbers rather than with compassion. He called the media's reporting 'a hoax,' something he's done many times before. It was then said by the left he was calling the virus a 'hoax.' Not so, even the MSM has repeatedly said so, but no matter, it's from the left.

Then he got very serious, his leadership worked and the media couldn't stand that his approval ratings kept going up. For a very non-Republican, republican, Trump couldn't leave success continue. He basically came out at the beginning of the week and said 'this can't go on. Americans don't want to stay home, they want to get to work. It's going to result in suicides, the cure can't be worse than the illness.'

He then went on to say he'd like to see a return to normal by Easter. He did say it would depend on the data, which the doctors were working on. Then some of his biggest supporters came out with statements of support to get back to normal-for the children and everyone's mental health.

Now it sounds like they are going to look at things state by state, county by county on how tight to keep restrictions. Time will tell.

Thanks for your wishes on Boris's health ... appreciated.

I also note from your post that Trump is adopting his 'wait and see how this develops' approach. 'News' stories I've seen try to skew this to suggest that Trump would take a lot of convincing to NOT press on with his 'conditions are normalising, get back to work' approach.

Time will indeed tell .... BUT .... if the US follows the pattern of infection Italy saw (that looks like it's happening over here) ... you'll be lucky if you see a downturn you can usefully work with before late May. I don't believe any sign of a turnaround is at all likely in the next 3-4 weeks minimum, possibly a lot longer than that.

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 09:24 AM

Thanks for that.

I just tried trawling around for articles addressing what the President had said .... and I didn't even have to open the links. The list on my page showed articles on it from obviously Left wing outlets ... ABC News, NBC, Huffington Post (they opened a UK office some time ago, by the way). Etc.

Enough said. When the Left leads on a story, (especially when the BBC and the Guardian get involved) you know that a propaganda advantage is being fought to win.

So, OK .. I'm heartened. Thanks !
Try this... https://searchconservative.com/

They do their best to filter out the DEMOCRAT PROPAGANDA WING garbage, and link to stories that are more truthful.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 09:35 AM

Found this on the BBC's website. Anyone doubting the BBC's biases, and how I've characterised them, can know from this that I've reported on the BBC with accuracy.

THIS is the diet of propaganda spoonfed to UK citizens on an almost daily basis.

See these excerpts:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52012049

Nations, like individuals, reveal themselves at times of crisis. In emergencies of this immense magnitude, it soon becomes evident whether a sitting president is equal to the moment. So what have we learnt about the United States as it confronts this national and global catastrophe? Will lawmakers on Capitol Hill, who have been in a form of legislative lockdown for years now, a paralysis borne of partisanship, rise to the challenge? And what of the man who now sits behind the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, who has cloaked himself in the mantle of "wartime president"?

Of the three questions, the last one is the least interesting, largely because Donald Trump's response has been so predictable. He has not changed. He has not grown. He has not admitted errors. He has shown little humility.

Instead, all the hallmarks of his presidency have been on agitated display. The ridiculous boasts - he has awarded himself a 10 out of 10 for his handling of the crisis. The politicisation of what should be the apolitical - he toured the Centers for Disease Control wearing a campaign cap emblazoned with the slogan "Keep America Great".

The mind-bending truth-twisting - he now claims to have fully appreciated the scale of the pandemic early on, despite dismissing and downplaying the threat for weeks. The attacks on the "fakenews" media, including a particularly vicious assault on a White House reporter who asked what was his message to frightened Americans: "I tell them you are a terrible reporter." His pettiness and peevishness - mocking Senator Mitt Romney, the only Republican who voted at the end of the impeachment trial for his removal from office, for going into isolation.

His continued attacks on government institutions in the forefront of confronting the crisis - "the Deep State Department" is how he described the State Department from his presidential podium the morning after it issued its most extreme travel advisory urging Americans to refrain from all international travel. His obsession with ratings, or in this instance, confirmed case numbers - he stopped a cruise ship docking on the West Coast, noting: "I like the numbers where they are. I don't need to have the numbers double because of one ship that wasn't our fault." His compulsion for hype - declaring the combination of hydroxycholoroquine and azithromycin "one of the biggest game-changers in the history of medicine," even as medical officials warn against offering false hope.

His lack of empathy. Rather than soothing words for relatives of those who have died, or words of encouragement and appreciation for those in the medical trenches, Trump's daily White House briefings commonly start with a shower of self-congratulation. After Trump has spoken, Mike Pence, his loyal deputy, usually delivers a paean of praise to the president in that Pyongyang-on-the-Potomac style he has perfected over the past three years. Trump's narcissistic hunger for adoration seems impossible to sate. Instead of a wartime president, he has sounded at times like a sun king.

Then there is the xenophobia that has always been the sine qua non of his political business model - repeatedly he describes the disease as the "Chinese virus". Just as he scapegoated China and Mexican immigrants for decimating America's industrial heartland ahead of the 2016 presidential election, he is blaming Beijing for the coronavirus outbreak in an attempt to win re-election.

Here, the BBC widens its attack, to attack an aspect of American life ... sitting in judgment on your country:

Once again, those who live in developed nations have been left to ponder why the world's richest country does not have a system of universal healthcare. Ten years after the passage of Obamacare, more than 26 million Americans do not have health insurance.

Rather than a coming together, the crisis has demonstrated how for decades Americans have conducted a political version of social distancing: the herd-like clustering of conservatives and liberals into like-minded communities caused by the allergic reaction to compatriots holding opposing political views. Once again, we have seen the familiar two Americas divide, the usual knee-jerk tribalism. Republicans have been twice as likely as Democrats to view coronavirus coverage as exaggerated. Three-quarters of Republicans say they trust the information coming from the president, whereas the figure among Democrats is just 8%.

As the Reverend Josh King told the Washington Post despairingly: "In your more politically conservative regions, closing is not interpreted as caring for you. It's interpreted as liberalism." Even on 13 March, when the CDC projected that up to 214 millions could be infected, Sean Davis, the co-founder of the right-wing website, The Federalist, tweeted: "Corporate political media hate you, they hate the country, and they will stop at nothing to reclaim power to rule over you. If that means destroying the economy via a panic they helped incite, all while running interference for the communist country that started it, so be it."

The latest Gallup polling shows the split: 94% of Republicans approve of his handling of the crisis, compared with 27% of Democrats. But overall, six out of ten Americans approve, pushing his approval rating up again to 49%, matching the highest score of his presidency. As with previous crises, such as 9/11, Americans tend to rally around the presidency, although Donald Trump remains a deeply polarising figure.

'Those who live in developed nations' ... see that ? An evident attempt to paint America as not qualifying as one, because you don't run a clone of our - highly imperfect !! - NHS.

You see how the BBC spoonfeeds its propaganda to us, feeds us a constant diet of clear bias, dressed up so as to appear 'analytical, therefore, dispassionate and reliable'. Where in truth, they're just as deeply infected with their judgmental anti-Trump hatreds as the worst of your own Left !

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 09:47 AM

Drummond

03-27-2020, 09:58 AM

Good Lord... :cuckoo:

Quite. But this is typical of the BBC ... a news outfit that, whenever asked or challenged, fiercely defends its 'neutrality'.

The BBC is the UK's State broadcaster. UK citizens are COMPELLED, BY LAW, to fund all this. Not paying a licence fee to the BBC is actually a criminal offence here (though, to be fair, Boris is considering decriminalisation of non-payment).

In the days of GWB's Presidency, news reporters reported (I assume ?) at least relatively accurately on stories involving him. But they did so in a sneering way. It became no secret (because the BBC had an interest in seeing to it that we all thought this) that he was regarded as as being an idiot, possessing an 'ignorant' worldview. A satirical new quiz, called 'Have I Got News For You', played clips designed to push that characterisation for all it was worth.

We had a total lack of attack-pieces against Obama, though. 'Strangely'.

You know, HPD ... I'd absolutely love it if Americans turned away from the BBC. They should, in my view, given the obvious truth of its anti-American bias. Your people are offered BBC programming as a subscription service, is that correct ? I'd love that market to run dry.

As for us being a 'decent ally' of America (just seen that addition !) ... well ... we WOULD be, if all the propaganda ended. But as I've been at pains to say, at length, and in quite a few posts ... the Left has a stranglehold over opinions and attitudes here. Don't turn away from the UK as 'unworthy' allies ... not when we're being royally conned by our own Left. We are fundamentally decent people.

Our big mistake has been - generations ago - to open the door to militant Leftism. They worked hard, and over a VERY considerable period, to terraform attitudes away from our more natural inclination to be a Conservative people.

It says something for that spirit that we've voted Conservatives into power for the past ten years (even if a few of them were in coalition with the LibDems). But underpinning all that has been a drip-drip-dripfeeding of Lefties biases and lies, to make us adopt thinking consistent with the Left's agenda.

Approval of strong gun laws. A 'couldn't care less' attitude to adoption. Near-total 'love' for our NHS, and judgmentality against anyone disagreeing. Anti-Islamism is 'automatically racist, actionable in law'.

The Left is responsible for all that, by instilling attitudes that insist we think this way.

Don't kid yourself that the US wouldn't follow a similar path, IF the Left was given comparable opportunity to work on peoples' thinking. Which is why I say, and why I will always say, that you MUST keep your Left as permanently starved of power as possible.

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 10:01 AM

Quite. But this is typical of the BBC ... a news outfit that, whenever asked or challenged, fiercely defends its 'neutrality'.

The BBC is the UK's State broadcaster. UK citizens are COMPELLED, BY LAW, to fund all this. Not paying a licence fee to the BBC is actually a criminal offence here (though, to be fair, Boris is considering decriminalisation of non-payment).

In the days of GWB's Presidency, news reporters reported (I assume ?) at least relatively accurately on stories involving him. But they did so in a sneering way. It became no secret (because the BBC had an interest in seeing to it that we all thought this) that he was regarded as as being an idiot, possessing an 'ignorant' worldview. A satirical new quiz, called 'Have I Got News For You', played clips designed to push that characterisation for all it was worth.

We had a total lack of attack-pieces against Obama, though. 'Strangely'.

You know, HPD ... I'd absolutely love it if Americans turned away from the BBC. They should, in my view, given the obvious truth of its anti-American bias. Your people are offered BBC programming as a subscription service, is that correct ? I'd love that market to run dry.
I hate to say this bro, but from what I gather from your informing posts and observations, the UK doesn't sound much better than communist China or Russia when it comes to what it allows people to hear and read. Just unreal.

I might revise the above statement to... "your state run media"... at least you still have the ability to search the internet without restrictions... I assume.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 10:35 AM

I hate to say this bro, but from what I gather from your informing posts and observations, the UK doesn't sound much better than communist China or Russia when it comes to what it allows people to hear and read. Just unreal.

I have to correct you. Not 'unreal' ...... VERY real !!

The UK's version of bias and attitude-management is far more subtle than you'd get from either China or Russia. Think George Orwell. What matters, as he brilliantly observed, that if you master peoples' very thoughts, you have no need of draconian authoritarianism. Craft a concept of what is or is not socially acceptable (example: our NHS, and the perception that possessing an equivalent to it marks any society out as being properly developed and civilised) ... and, once that's taken on board as a 'foundling value', it's nigh-on impossible to reverse it.

America has no equivalent of our NHS. Conclusion: it's socially under-developed as a civilised society. It is, consequently, 'wrong-headed'.

Who promoted that thinking ? THE LEFT.

The Left has no tolerance for thinking not in lockstep with its own. It wants everyone to think as they do, and it works to make sure that's true. Here in the UK, a lot has been achieved by the Left to make that true ... BUT .... not through force. Just dripfeeding of ideas and attitudes over literally generations.

Force is something you can see as deserving of resistance. But, impose your very thinking upon the population, make them think that those thoughts are their own ... and, you see nothing to resist.

So we're not Russia or China. We might just as well be, in certain ways. But, we're not.

An example: I know that US forces found in excess of 500 degraded WMD's in Iraq. How ? Because I study American material. I know that in June 2006, Rick Santorum held a press conference where he publicised a newly declassified portion of an Intelligence document that SAID they'd been found.

Some of your news outlets covered it (Fox News displayed pictures showing the very pages of print).

But, NONE of ours did. Nowhere in Europe was that news disseminated. There was a total lockdown against releasing it.

I know that anyone I tell, here, that WMD's were found, will never, ever, believe me. Why ? Because OUR LEFT has made sure that its version of the 'truth' is there, and can't be questioned.

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 10:38 AM

I have to correct you. Not 'unreal' ...... VERY real !!

The UK's version of bias and attitude-management is far more subtle than you'd get from either China or Russia. Think George Orwell. What matters, as he brilliantly observed, that if you master peoples' very thoughts, you have no need of draconian authoritarianism. Craft a concept of what is or is not socially acceptable (example: our NHS, and the perception that possessing an equivalent to it marks any society out as being properly developed and civilised) ... and, once that's taken on board as a 'foundling value', it's nigh-on impossible to reverse it.

America has no equivalent of our NHS. Conclusion: it's socially under-developed as a civilised society. It is, consequently, 'wrong-headed'.

Who promoted that thinking ? THE LEFT.

The Left has no tolerance for thinking not in lockstep with its own. It wants everyone to think as they do, and it works to make sure that's true. Here in the UK, a lot has been achieved by the Left to make that true ... BUT .... not through force. Just dripfeeding of ideas and attitudes over literally generations.

Force is something you can see as deserving of resistance. But, impose your very thinking upon the population, make them think that those thoughts are their own ... and, you see nothing to resist.

So we're not Russia or China. We might just as well be, in certain ways. But, we're not.

An example: I know that US forces found in excess of 500 degraded WMD's in Iraq. How ? Because I study American material. I know that in June 2006, Rick Santorum held a press conference where he publicised a newly declassified portion of an Intelligence document that SAID they'd been found.

Some of your news outlets covered it (Fox News displayed pictures showing the very pages of print).

But, NONE of ours did. Nowhere in Europe was that news disseminated. There was a total lockdown against releasing it.

I know that anyone I tell, here, that WMD's were found, will never, ever, believe me. Why ? Because OUR LEFT has made sure that its version of the 'truth' is there, and can't be questioned.
I had to revise my above post.

Yes, your leftist propaganda wing doesn't sound much different than our democrat propaganda wing here, although we're not forced to finance their pap. It's a disgusting display of unhinged hatred and bias.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 11:01 AM

I had to revise my above post.

Yes, your leftist propaganda wing doesn't sound much different than our democrat propaganda wing here, although we're not forced to finance their pap. It's a disgusting display of unhinged hatred and bias.

Yes.

The Left thinks globally. Your version of Left will only be different to ours, in terms of its need to identify with whatever makes you different from us, or us to you. The goals will be the same, the Leftie dream identical.

But at least your people can see what they propagate for what it really is, and since that's true, it can be resisted. Here, if you see bias and hatred as actually 'the norm', and only reflective of a perceived reality .... how do you see anything to resist ?

The Left's entrenched influence over our State broadcaster is quite a coup for them. The BBC is seen as an authoritative media voice over here. People WILL listen to it, and be prepared to swallow anything they disseminate.

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 11:24 AM

Yes.

The Left thinks globally. Your version of Left will only be different to ours, in terms of its need to identify with whatever makes you different from us, or us to you. The goals will be the same, the Leftie dream identical.

But at least your people can see what they propagate for what it really is, and since that's true, it can be resisted. Here, if you see bias and hatred as actually 'the norm', and only reflective of a perceived reality .... how do you see anything to resist ?

The Left's entrenched influence over our State broadcaster is quite a coup for them. The BBC is seen as an authoritative media voice over here. People WILL listen to it, and be prepared to swallow anything they disseminate.
It's a crying shame, brother. Not to be able to SPEAK YOUR MIND without LEGAL repercussions, even to identify the obvious, something everyone KNOWS is the TRUTH, but yet you can't SAY ANYTHING about it... that's just draconian, apocalyptic circumstances there, but yet it's your reality. I feel for ya man, no one should have to live under such tyranny. No wonder your tyrannical leftist propaganda wing views America as such an uncontrolled mob. We can say and think what we want, we're not UNDER CONTROL. We're all REBELS and UNCIVILIZED OUTLAWS. I hope it's not your leftists still stinging from us kicking them out centuries ago. In any case, if it wasn't for us the UK would probably be speaking German. I guess that's all been forgotten by your left. So much for gratitude.

I never knew the UK was like that. This is all a learning experience for me, and quite shocking.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 12:10 PM

It's a crying shame, brother. Not to be able to SPEAK YOUR MIND without LEGAL repercussions, even to identify the obvious, something everyone KNOWS is the TRUTH, but yet you can't SAY ANYTHING about it... that's just draconian, apocalyptic circumstances there, but yet it's your reality. I feel for ya man, no one should have to live under such tyranny. No wonder your tyrannical leftist propaganda wing views America as such an uncontrolled mob. We can say and think what we want, we're not UNDER CONTROL. We're all REBELS and UNCIVILIZED OUTLAWS. I hope it's not your leftists still stinging from us kicking them out centuries ago. In any case, if it wasn't for us the UK would probably be speaking German. I guess that's all been forgotten by your left. So much for gratitude.

I never knew the UK was like that. This is all a learning experience for me, and quite shocking.

The greatest danger for us is, and always will be, that we continue to believe in our freedom, that we have total faith that our thoughts are our own, and would never be open to being convinced otherwise .. when, in fact, our thoughts are not ours, but what the Left have conditioned us to think.

Belief in freedom, championing it, when it doesn't exist -- only the illusion of it. The Left would love seeing that status quo so consolidated that it could never be challenged. They continually work towards that goal.

[Our people (mostly !) 'KNOW' that anti-Islamism is 'racist'. Even though it's not. They 'know' that controls over freedom of speech against Muslims is justifiable. Even though it's not.]

The 'beauty' of it is that the fewer people become so much as capable of seeing that as a tyranny, the better, if the Left have their way. We're meant to feel GOOD about all this, that it all encourages an 'enlightened' behaviour.

The goal is to institute a tyranny, that nobody could ever see for what it was. Looking like, feeling like, a free and healthy social order, where people are relatively happy .. just so long as they never think an un-approvable thought.

Forget references to the past, if I were you. The Left SHOULD care (should feel gratitude about your decisive intervention in WWII), but they do NOT. This has nothing to do with any events from centuries ago. Leftists are global. All they care about is instituting their control, and achieving their preferred effect. It's about making the future what they insist it must be ... through absolutely everybody's eyes.

We are good people. I insist that this is so.

But, we're increasingly CONDITIONED people. We opened the door to extreme Leftism a very long time ago. It's not a mistake that the US ever dares to make for itself.

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 12:25 PM

The greatest danger for us is, and always will be, that we continue to believe in our freedom, that we have total faith that our thoughts are our own, and would never be open to being convinced otherwise .. when, in fact, our thoughts are not ours, but what the Left have conditioned us to think.

Belief in freedom, championing it, when it doesn't exist -- only the illusion of it. The Left would love seeing that status quo so consolidated that it could never be challenged. They continually work towards that goal.

[Our people (mostly !) 'KNOW' that anti-Islamism is 'racist'. Even though it's not. They 'know' that controls over freedom of speech against Muslims is justifiable. Even though it's not.]

The 'beauty' of it is that the fewer people become so much as capable of seeing that as a tyranny, the better, if the Left have their way. We're meant to feel GOOD about all this, that it all encourages an 'enlightened' behaviour.

The goal is to institute a tyranny, that nobody could ever see for what it was. Looking like, feeling like, a free and healthy social order, where people are relatively happy .. just so long as they never think an un-approvable thought.

Forget references to the past, if I were you. The Left SHOULD care (should feel gratitude about your decisive intervention in WWII), but they do NOT. This has nothing to do with any events from centuries ago. Leftists are global. All they care about is instituting their control, and achieving their preferred effect. It's about making the future what they insist it must be ... through absolutely everybody's eyes.

We are good people. I insist that this is so.

But, we're increasingly CONDITIONED people. We opened the door to extreme Leftism a very long time ago. It's not a mistake that the US ever dares to make for itself.
HOW did you ESCAPE all the thought control? There HAS to be others like you in Britain.

And I would never contend that the people of Britain are "bad people," I see them all as victims.

Have you never thought of getting the hell OTTA THERE? America can use people like you, and we'd welcome you with open arms. Wisconsin has plenty of room... ;)

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 01:47 PM

Thanks for your wishes on Boris's health ... appreciated.

I also note from your post that Trump is adopting his 'wait and see how this develops' approach. 'News' stories I've seen try to skew this to suggest that Trump would take a lot of convincing to NOT press on with his 'conditions are normalising, get back to work' approach.

Time will indeed tell .... BUT .... if the US follows the pattern of infection Italy saw (that looks like it's happening over here) ... you'll be lucky if you see a downturn you can usefully work with before late May. I don't believe any sign of a turnaround is at all likely in the next 3-4 weeks minimum, possibly a lot longer than that.

I listen to him whenever I can, including the presser where he was quite adamant, I think BBC is factual, if spinning somewhat left. The thing with this president, you never quite know if he means what he's projecting, he may be projecting that he's going to let the 'economy pop back' whatever the cost, while he actually is going to do something that is much more measured. I hope that's the case here-I think the other would be a disaster. It does seem he's slowly looking like he wants a middle road.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 01:49 PM

Good Lord... :cuckoo:

And here I thought the UK was a decent ally of America. Surely that would appear to be in question.

Umm, BBC is not the government or the people, anymore than NYT or Red State is America's.

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 01:51 PM

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 01:56 PM

Ya know Kath, I think part of why Trump says a lot of things he does is to keep the democrat propaganda wing always guessing, off balance. Then he can bash them back the way they're always bashing him. I think it's a strategy of his. Course I'm just guessing.

I'm quite sure that is what I was implying, but it's not just the left. Indeed, some of his core supporters are flooding social media with how ending the social distancing is just what is needed, both for economic and psychological reasons. They buy his projections every time too. In this case, the costs may be high.

I don't know what has happened to people on the left or right. Take this ijit Massy, putting so many at risk, for what? Then there's AOC's puppet, Pelosi, who would have seriously screwed things up even more if not for Schumer.

None are acting as Americans first, but as two extreme versions of empty vessels.

High_Plains_Drifter

03-27-2020, 02:08 PM

I'm quite sure that is what I was implying, but it's not just the left. Indeed, some of his core supporters are flooding social media with how ending the social distancing is just what is needed, both for economic and psychological reasons. They buy his projections every time too. In this case, the costs may be high.

I don't know what has happened to people on the left or right. Take this ijit Massy, putting so many at risk, for what? Then there's AOC's puppet, Pelosi, who would have seriously screwed things up even more if not for Schumer.

None are acting as Americans first, but as two extreme versions of empty vessels.
I agree. But I'll also add that Trump, like anyone else, does have his share of STUPID people that won't THINK before they support what he say's or does. I surely don't. I've been very critical of a few things he's said and done. The people that do just blindly go along with EVERYTHING he say's should be discounted as quickly as democrat people blindly supporting ridiculous things their party leaders say and do.

And that Massy... ya... he can't STOP the final vote or change it's outcome. What he's doing is sheer stupidity and grandstanding ignorance.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 02:15 PM

I agree. But I'll also add that Trump, like anyone else, does have his share of STUPID people that won't THINK before they support what he say's or does. I surely don't. I've been very critical of a few things he's said and done. The people that do just blindly go along with EVERYTHING he say's should be discounted as quickly as democrat people blindly supporting ridiculous things their party leaders say and do.

And that Massy... ya... he can't STOP the final vote or change it's outcome. What he's doing is sheer stupidity and grandstanding ignorance.

Part of the reason I think so many are hating all of the politicos so much is their followers. I actually expect politicians to be narcissistic idiots. What I don't expect is all the nonsense of 'not my president' and willing to jump off a cliff for what their leaders want or don't get. They'll burn down the castle.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 02:21 PM

HOW did you ESCAPE all the thought control? There HAS to be others like you in Britain.

And I would never contend that the people of Britain are "bad people," I see them all as victims.

Have you never thought of getting the hell OTTA THERE? America can use people like you, and we'd welcome you with open arms. Wisconsin has plenty of room... ;)

I think I escaped it because of the way all my experiences knitted together.

I started out as a Leftie, myself, believing their Utopianist rot, thinking that people could take on specific values, be guided into them, be improved as a result, with society benefitting by having 'better people' within it.

But ... I saw Left-wing militancy in action. The Three Day Working week, and all the suffering the associated strikes caused. Ditto, only far worse still, I lived through the Winter of Discontent. More Left-wing militancy. More chaos and destruction.

I learned lessons from it, from those experiences. So-called 'Socialists' were only human beings, 'prey' to their human natures. Humanity is self-serving, and no amount of dogma can override that. So, greed took over, and the fabric of our society suffered damage.

I'm old enough to have lived through that. Many, here, are not.

I went through an epiphany, which few others did. Lesson: people need the freedom to be what THEY ARE. You can't crush human nature, and Socialism insists upon legislating for it, whereas Conservatism SERVES it.

Few people learned what I did, from the reason I had to learn what I did. This, I think, is why comparatively few people are like me.

We've youngsters in the UK who were willing to see Corbyn's politics as 'new' and 'refreshing', just because they know no better. I, however, do. I know Corbyn's politics as being old, and discredited. I learned the lesson that many, now, may have to learn for themselves, some time in the future.

Yes, we're victims of Leftie illusion and manipulation. Thanks for seeing us for what we are: their victims.

Truth be told, I'm just too long in the tooth to uproot myself and go to a different part of the planet. Besides, I've never run away from a battle. God knows, my country offers many ..... :cool: .....

Drummond

03-27-2020, 02:42 PM

I listen to him whenever I can, including the presser where he was quite adamant, I think BBC is factual, if spinning somewhat left. The thing with this president, you never quite know if he means what he's projecting, he may be projecting that he's going to let the 'economy pop back' whatever the cost, while he actually is going to do something that is much more measured. I hope that's the case here-I think the other would be a disaster. It does seem he's slowly looking like he wants a middle road.

The BBC is certainly factual when it can be, yes. But it does manipulate, too. It'll attribute great weight to one side of a story, and very little to any aspect not in line with what it wants people to consider.

The BBC did not menton one word of WMD's (degraded ones) being found by 2006, in Iraq. It said nothing about Santorum's press conference on the subject.

A couple of years ago, Hamas launched rockets into Israel, precipitating Israel's inevitably strong response. All the BBC could do was concentrate on the 'immense suffering' the Gazan people were suffering from it. Virtually nothing was said of how Israel suffers from Hamas terrorism.

Consider how terrorism reports are handled, and the ban on calling a terrorist, A TERRORIST, unless someone else already has. What else is that, but attitude-management ?

As for Brexit (!!) ... the BBC fed us an unrelenting diet of scare stories about Brexit, prompting the Sun newspaper to publish THIS:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10575207/bbc-anti-brexit-bias-licence-fee/

BBC’s anti-Brexit bias drips through their entire output — their licence fee days are numbered

HOW very BBC that it should respond to charges of bias against the Conservatives by inviting Labour MP Andy McDonald on to the Today programme on Monday and egging him on to say the BBC was biased against Jeremy Corbyn.

Look at us, the corporation is trying to say, we’re being attacked from both sides, so we must have got our balance just right.

Sorry, but it won’t wash. The most grievous example of “bias” that McDonald could come up with was a BBC reporter who on election night referred to the “election victory that Boris Johnson so deserves” rather than, as she meant to say, the election victory he so desires.

Against that, we had six weeks of battering Boris Johnson and his Government — and of course continuing to rubbish Brexit. I am sure the BBC was disappointed that Boris rejected the invitation to be interviewed by Andrew Neil. But that doesn’t excuse its hysterical reaction.

Ironically, on the day Neil lambasted Johnson for refusing to appear on his show, the Prime Minister took part in an hour-long live BBC debate with Jeremy Corbyn. That is something no serving Prime Minister had agreed to do until Gordon Brown in 2010.

Boris also took part in a Question Time special, being interviewed by a live audience, he was interviewed by Andrew Marr and spoke with numerous other broadcasters and publications. And of course, Boris had to run the country as well as campaign for the election.

During the week the Andrew Neil interview would have taken place the Prime Minister was hosting a Nato summit. I’ve just been through the Twitter feed of the BBC’s “Reality Check” correspondent.

EVEN EASTENDERS PLOT IS ANTI-BREXIT

Since the parties launched their campaigns, 39 of its tweets rejected claims made by the Conservatives and two tweets were generally supportive of claims the party had made.

By contrast, only seven tweets rejected claims made by Labour, while 13 supported its claims. Not one tweet, though, dealt with the biggest lie of the campaign by far — Labour’s charge that the Conservatives are planning to sell off the NHS.

No evidence for this was produced — and yet, day after day, BBC news bulletins returned to this subject. BBC News seized on the story of Boris refusing to look at a photograph on a reporter’s phone of a sick child being treated on the floor of an NHS hospital.

Yet the following day, when Jon Ashworth, a senior Shadow Cabinet minister, was revealed to have described Jeremy Corbyn as a threat to national security, the BBC downplayed the story, suggesting Ashworth had merely been engaging in “banter”. The BBC has tried all it can to undermine Brexit.

Week after week it leads news bulletins with claims by Remain-supporting think tanks that the economy would crash as a result of Brexit — while simultaneously downplaying real economic data showing healthy economic growth and very strong jobs figures

The BBC is manipulative. It skews stories as it sees fit. That's just a fact, Kathianne.

Time will tell to see what balance Trump strikes. I'll be very surprised, though, if the BBC doesn't spin it in some fashion.

For example, they were one news outlet insisting that Trump HAD called Covid-19 'a hoax'.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 02:46 PM

The BBC is certainly factual when it can be, yes. But it does manipulate, too. It'll attribute great weight to one side of a story, and very little to any aspect not in line with what it wants people to consider.

The BBC did not menton one word of WMD's (degraded ones) being found by 2006. It said nothing about Santorum's press conference on the subject.

A couple of years ago, Hamas launched rockets into Israel, precipitating Israel's inevitably strong response. All the BBC could do was concentrate on the 'immense suffering' the Gazan people were suffering from it. Virtually nothing was said of how Israel suffers from Hamas terrorism.

Consider how terrorism reports are handled, and the ban on calling a terrorist, A TERRORIST, unless someone else already has. What else is that, but attitude-management ?

As for Brexit (!!) ... the BBC fed us an unrelenting diet of scare stories about Brexit, prompting the Sun newspaper to publish THIS:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10575207/bbc-anti-brexit-bias-licence-fee/

The BBC is manipulative. It skews stories as it sees fit. That's just a fact, Kathianne.

Time will tell to see what balance Trump strikes. I'll be very surprised, though, if the BBC doesn't spin it in some fashion.

For example, they were one news outlet insisting that Trump HAD called Covid-19 'a hoax'.
I'm not defending the BBC, I don't watch it. I was responding to what YOU wrote of their reporting on Trump and his US reaction to the virus. Nothing more.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 06:02 PM

Drummond

03-27-2020, 08:49 PM

Speaking of listening to him, caught both the signing and his presser an hour later. Tone is different. 'We really need to get to work, but health and safety have to be first. The economy will follow. I hope it's very soon.'

Definite change. I think he realized some of his acolytes were going further down a road he wasn't heading. . .

All very good. Realism is in charge, it seems.

I often record news broadcasts and review them much later in the day. I just finished watching the BBC's 1pm news (Friday).

Jane Hill was the 'anchor' for that broadcast.

Around 12 minutes into the broadcast, America's situation was described, with some pretty grim statistics relayed ... America is evidently now being hit hard by Covid-19.

However ... BBC 'fake news' to the 'rescue' ! A sentence - not backed by anything at all - was uttered by Jane Hill. Having just rattled off some infection stats, she went on to say .. and I quote .. '... President Trump, though, says the crisis will end quickly'.

That's verbatim, a totally accurate quote. No 'hope' expressed ... but, a bland promise / assurance of what Trump says WILL happen.

I don't believe it as an accurate report .. partly because of what I've learned here, partly because the BBC did not, then or subsequently, make any effort to substantiate the statement. Nonetheless, THIS IS WHAT THE BBC REPORTED ... and they've done nothing since to correct that earlier statement. I know .. I watched a later broadcast, at 10pm. Statement not repeated in that broadcast, but not in any way corrected or revised, either.

Obviously, this was slipped into the news broadcast as part of an effort to discredit Trump as a believable or even competent figure. They've already pushed the idea of Trump rushing to get America 'opened up again, by Easter'. This is meant to suggest Trump's single-mindedness in supposedly ignoring reality to push his own agenda ... lives lost, or not. This is an impression NOT corrected. After all, to do so would defy the BBC's preferred bias.

This is how Left-wing bias wins out over here. The truth isn't WHAT it is, it's what they SAY it is. We're meant to believe everything we're told. And, a great many here, do.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 09:01 PM

All very good. Realism is in charge, it seems.

I often record news broadcasts and review them much later in the day. I just finished watching the BBC's 1pm news (Friday).

Jane Hill was the 'anchor' for that broadcast.

Around 12 minutes into the broadcast, America's situation was described, with some pretty grim statistics relayed ... America is evidently now being hit hard by Covid-19.

However ... BBC 'fake news' to the 'rescue' ! A sentence - not backed by anything at all - was uttered by Jane Hill. Having just rattled off some infection stats, she went on to say .. and I quote .. '... President Trump, though, says the crisis will end quickly'.

That's verbatim, a totally accurate quote. No 'hope' expressed ... but, a bland promise / assurance of what Trump says WILL happen.

I don't believe it as an accurate report .. partly because of what I've learned here, partly because the BBC did not, then or subsequently, make any effort to substantiate the statement. Nonetheless, THIS IS WHAT THE BBC REPORTED.

Obviously, this was slipped into the news broadcast as part of an effort to discredit Trump as a believable or even competent figure. They've already pushed the idea of Trump rushing to get America 'opened up again, by Easter'. This is meant to suggest Trump's single-mindedness in supposedly ignoring reality to push his own agenda ... lives lost, or not.

This is how Left-wing bias wins out over here. The truth isn't WHAT it is, it's what they SAY it is. We're meant to believe everything we're told. And, a great many here, do.
Trump does say things like that, whether or not he did that time I've no clue. He often talks in absolutisms, then will say something after another sentence or phrase, coming back to the first statement and quantify it, though it's easy to get lost. I think he's too smart not to know what he's doing with that.

Remember when he said that he could shoot someone on 5th ave or something and deny it and many would agree with him? I think that was a moment when he realized just how literally many took him. I think with his remarks earlier in the week, he realized again just this. The acolytes are pretty dang committed to following both what he says and what they think he really believes. It has to be sort of nerve-wracking to be him.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 09:21 PM

Trump does say things like that, whether or not he did that time I've no clue. He often talks in absolutisms, then will say something after another sentence or phrase, coming back to the first statement and quantify it, though it's easy to get lost. I think he's too smart not to know what he's doing with that.

Remember when he said that he could shoot someone on 5th ave or something and deny it and many would agree with him? I think that was a moment when he realized just how literally many took him. I think with his remarks earlier in the week, he realized again just this. The acolytes are pretty dang committed to following both what he says and what they think he really believes. It has to be sort of nerve-wracking to be him.

Perhaps you're making a very valid point about how Trump leaps in with his 'absolutisms'. But he needs to understand that this is perfect fuel for those wanting to press ahead with a 'fake news' agenda. It's a pure gift to propagandists. Trump makes a bald statement. It gets quoted, perhaps in proper context, perhaps not. It doesn't matter, because those wanting to make propagandist capital out of it simply refuse, or 'somehow conveniently forget' to ever report anything that offers a corrective reconsideration.

This is what the BBC did with the lunchtime news broadcast. If in fact Trump said what it was reported he'd said, two things were done with that. Firstly, grim statistics were reported. Immediately after that, Trump's totally - apparently - contradictory statement, one seemingly totally ignoring the reality just described, was repeated.

This could only leave one impression, that of a President whose reality was entirely at odds with the real facts. Possibly this leaves in the mind of the viewer an impression of total incompetence. Or, an impression of a ruthless President who'll get America back to work REGARDLESS of any health considerations ... in other words, Trump may be painted as having a 'business first, human life a very poor second' outlook.

In other words, as a human being, he's painted as being a total and utter bastard.

Trrump's ad-hoc 'absolutisms', as you call them, really need to stop, if the fake news industry (of which, apparently, the BBC is a fully paid-up member !) isn't going to be given gifts it then runs with for damaging propagandist effect.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 09:36 PM

Perhaps you're making a very valid point about how Trump leaps in with his 'absolutisms'. But he needs to understand that this is perfect fuel for those wanting to press ahead with a 'fake news' agenda. It's a pure gift to propagandists. Trump makes a bald statement. It gets quoted, perhaps in proper context, perhaps not. It doesn't matter, because those wanting to make propagandist capital out of it simply refuse, or 'somehow conveniently forget' to ever report anything that offers a corrective reconsideration.

This is what the BBC did with the lunchtime news broadcast. If in fact Trump said what it was reported he'd said, two things were done with that. Firstly, grim statistics were reported. Immediately after that, Trump's totally - apparently - contradictory statement, one seemingly totally ignoring the reality just described, was repeated.

This could only leave one impression, that of a President whose reality was entirely at odds with the real facts. Possibly this leaves in the mind of the viewer an impression of total incompetence. Or, an impression of a ruthless President who'll get America back to work REGARDLESS of any health considerations ... in other words, Trump may be painted as having a 'business first, human life a very poor second' outlook.

In other words, as a human being, he's painted as being a total and utter bastard.

Trrump's ad-hoc 'absolutisms', as you call them, really need to stop, if the fake news industry (of which, apparently, the BBC is a fully paid-up member !) isn't going to be given gifts it then runs with for damaging propagandist effect.

You haven't noticed that's exactly what I've been saying all week? He does say these things, then gets the reactions. Sometimes he ignores that he said it; sometimes he fights back, saying 'fake news;' and sometimes he just goes a whole different direction.

I don't know if his solid, true core actually believe everything he says, it sure seems to be that way. As you know, I'm only recently considering voting for him in Nov., due to Pelosi more than anything else. I don't like cults and many in his core seem as cult-like as do those in the AOC wing of the left.

I like a degree of skepticism and knowing nearly all running for office are dogs.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 09:52 PM

You haven't noticed that's exactly what I've been saying all week? He does say these things, then gets the reactions. Sometimes he ignores that he said it; sometimes he fights back, saying 'fake news;' and sometimes he just goes a whole different direction.

I don't know if his solid, true core actually believe everything he says, it sure seems to be that way. As you know, I'm only recently considering voting for him in Nov., due to Pelosi more than anything else. I don't like cults and many in his core seem as cult-like as do those in the AOC wing of the left.

I like a degree of skepticism and knowing nearly all running for office are dogs.

Well, it's stupid. It's a gift to his adversaries. Trump expects situations to be generated, then cries 'fake news' to try and 'prove' a point ?

The BBC is a case in point. It runs with a preferred quote, set within a context of entirely contradictory evidence, for a given effect. It then does precisely nothing to correct any of it, or to move the story forward with any sign of a corrective development. Result ... the viewer can only believe what's been spoon-fed in a broadcast.

Trump shouldn't make any statement which can then be misused. His own preferred 'take' on how it pans out need not begin to resemble what hostile propagandists will get up to.

I don't know about Trump's 'solid, true core'. Accolytes who just act as acquiescent drones .. they don't help anything. Maybe Trump needs robust counsel, instead. Maybe Trump fails himself, by not insisting upon it.

Your 'knowing nearly all who run for office are dogs' approach wouldn't work well in the UK. Here, you have to know that your hoped-for Leader will be a totally reputable character. Success comes from a display of at least apparent proof of it.

Corbyn wasn't seen as credible, in December. The electorate turned away from him in droves. Lack of honourable credibility is a political death sentence over here.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 09:58 PM

Drummond

03-27-2020, 10:24 PM

Whoa! If you'd been saying this a few months ago, you'd be called a liberal! LOL!

One thing I think we can all safely say, Trump hasn't changed. He is what he is and has been.

Maybe the virus is making some people look outside of their own perspectives or desires?

Well, if I was called a liberal, it wouldn't have been for the first time .... totally erroneously, but of course.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Whatever Trump says or does, none of it excuses misrepresentations of him by propagandist broadcasters. Those propagandists know what they do, they have to know it's wrong, but, they do it anyway. I just don't see why Trump makes life easy for them.

Kathianne

03-27-2020, 10:29 PM

Well, if I was called a liberal, it wouldn't have been for the first time .... totally erroneously, but of course.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

Whatever Trump says or does, none of it excuses misrepresentations of him by propagandist broadcasters. Those propagandists know what they do, they have to know it's wrong, but, they do it anyway. I just don't see why Trump makes life easy for them.

If he didn't do these things, he wouldn't be Trump. That. Is. Why.

Drummond

03-27-2020, 10:52 PM

If he didn't do these things, he wouldn't be Trump. That. Is. Why.

Well, that's OK.

If the BBC didn't inject its bias into its reporting, it wouldn't be the BBC.

Kathianne

03-28-2020, 12:29 AM

and here comes the qualifiers, thankfully. Not the end of discussions, but a start:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/trump-weighs-rolling-quarantines

Published 2 hours agoTrump weighs rolling coronavirus quarantinesNew York City could stay in lockdown longer than more rural areas
Trump rethinking Easter goal to reopen country, economy: Gasparino
FOX Business' Charlie Gasparino says the White House is reportedly considering integrating younger people into the workforce when the coronavirus lockdowns end.

Get all the latest news on coronavirus and more delivered daily to your inbox. Sign up here.

President Trump may release an updated timeline for when people will return to work, an indication that he is backing off his statement earlier this week that he would like to end the quarantine by Easter Sunday as the lockdown wreaks havoc on the U.S. economy, FOX Business has learned.

According to people close to the president, he may soon announce an approach that would suggest the quarantines should end on a rolling basis — keeping heavily infected hotspots like New York City shuttered for longer than areas that are only minimally affected.

People tell FOX Business an announcement on when people may return back to work could come anytime.

The move would mark a reversal from Trump’s earlier position—on March 24 he told Fox News anchor Bill Hemmer he “would love to have the country opened up and just raring to go by Easter.”

A White House spokesman didn’t return a call for comment

Another idea under consideration is to allow young people to return to work while those with a higher risk of serious illness, the elderly and those with underlying conditions remain in self- quarantine.

As financial markets tank, Trump is eager to get the economy rolling again and deploy workers as quickly as possible. But health experts believe trying to get people back to work too soon could endanger lives and prolong the virus and its impact on the health system and the economy

But administration officials are worried that the economy could fall into a deep recession and possibly a depression. Even as Congress passed a $2.2 trillion stimulus package to mitigate the economic pain, it will be meaningless unless people can go back to work or spend the money at local restaurants, shops and salons that are currently closed due to social distancing.

Trump took two big actions Friday that will help mobilize the U.S. response to coronavirus—signing off on the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act and invoking the Defense Production Act. Trump is using this act to ensure General Motors ventilators necessary for coronavirus patients in critical condition.

People close to Trump say he is trying to balance the competing concerns of economic health with the health of all Americans and is said to be weighing all options.

Drummond

03-28-2020, 12:55 PM

and here comes the qualifiers, thankfully. Not the end of discussions, but a start:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/trump-weighs-rolling-quarantines

I 'checked this out' on the BBC website (I've viewed no TV yet today, & all I've listened to is LBC). This is the BBC's version, below.

According to this, Trump is at odds with Cuomo over the whole quarantining idea (hardly surprising that the BBC would feature such an argument) ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52079121

US President Donald Trump has said he is considering imposing a quarantine on New York in a bid to slow the spread of the coronavirus.

"We'd like to see [it] quarantined because it's a hotspot," he told reporters. "I'm thinking about that."

He spoke as confirmed cases in the state increased to more than 52,000, with at least 728 deaths.

But the state's governor, Andrew Cuomo, said he had not discussed such measures with the president.

"I didn't speak to him about any quarantine," he told reporters shortly after he had spoken with Mr Trump by phone.

"I haven't had those conversations," he added. "I don't even know what that means."

New York state has the highest number of cases of Covid-19 in the US.

Speaking before he left to visit a Navy hospital ship in Virginia, Mr Trump said that "New Jersey [and] certain parts of Connecticut" could also be quarantined under the measures.

"We might not have to do it but there's a possibility that sometime today we'll do a quarantine — short term [for] two weeks," he said.

But Mr Cuomo, who was holding a daily press briefing at the time of Mr Trump's comments, expressed concern at the idea.

"I don't know how that can be legally enforceable," he said. "And from a medical point of view, I don't know what you would be accomplishing."

"But I can tell you I don't even like the sound of it," he added. "Not even understanding what it is, I don't like the sound of it."

The BBC love to portray Trump as a divisive figure, every chance they get ....

Drummond

03-28-2020, 12:59 PM

I 'checked this out' on the BBC website (I've viewed no TV yet today, & all I've listened to is LBC). This is the BBC's version, below.

According to this, Trump is at odds with Cuomo over the whole quarantining idea (hardly surprising that the BBC would feature such an argument) ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52079121

The BBC love to portray Trump as a divisive figure, every chance they get ....

LBC just covered this. Their report echoes the BBC version .. highlighting the level of disagreement between Trump and Cuomo.

Drummond

03-30-2020, 07:26 AM

Well, it's stupid. It's a gift to his adversaries. Trump expects situations to be generated, then cries 'fake news' to try and 'prove' a point ?

The BBC is a case in point. It runs with a preferred quote, set within a context of entirely contradictory evidence, for a given effect. It then does precisely nothing to correct any of it, or to move the story forward with any sign of a corrective development. Result ... the viewer can only believe what's been spoon-fed in a broadcast.

Trump shouldn't make any statement which can then be misused. His own preferred 'take' on how it pans out need not begin to resemble what hostile propagandists will get up to.

I don't know about Trump's 'solid, true core'. Accolytes who just act as acquiescent drones .. they don't help anything. Maybe Trump needs robust counsel, instead. Maybe Trump fails himself, by not insisting upon it.

Your 'knowing nearly all who run for office are dogs' approach wouldn't work well in the UK. Here, you have to know that your hoped-for Leader will be a totally reputable character. Success comes from a display of at least apparent proof of it.

Corbyn wasn't seen as credible, in December. The electorate turned away from him in droves. Lack of honourable credibility is a political death sentence over here.
Kathianne ...

-- Resurrecting this 'Trump's statements are a propagandist gift to adversaries' point, because of what I've continued to hear on LBC Radio.

I didn't see it (the BBC usually relays instances like this). But apparently, Trump gave a news conference yesterday, in which he indulged in some self-praise ? Something about commenting on how good his ratings had become ?

Two of LBC's reporters reacted very badly to that, and of course, they gave vent to their opinions, on-air.

First up was Tom Swarbrick. He is relatively neutral on Trump, usually. Not 'for', but not notably 'against', either. But in reaction, Swarbrick branded Trump a 'dangerous narcissist'.

The other, just a couple of hours ago, was James O'Brien. O'Brien is far more 'anti-Trump', and sometimes vitriolic with it. His comment in reaction was predictable: 'A despicable human being' was O'Brien's judgment.

O'Brien had another comment reserved for Trump's public declaration of his refusal to fund Harry and Meghan's security needs. He attributed that refusal to 'a clear example of racism against Meghan'. He said this refusal was all the more remarkable, as the couple had made no request for funding in the first place.

My point is this: Trump REALLY needs to be guarded and careful in what he publicly says !! Because, as matters stand, he's a propagandist gift for all those who want to bring him down.

Swarbrick isn't even particularly anti-Trump (not compared with many). People, here, WILL listen to such commentators and be influenced by them. They'll believe in Trump being 'despicable'. They'll even judge America badly, on the basis that Trump, by their reckoning, 'should not' be supporting Trump.

Trump is a propagandist gift to his enemies, and his lack of care in such matters could turn entire nations against him.

This needs to stop !!

Kathianne

03-30-2020, 08:47 AM

@Kathianne (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=8) ...

-- Resurrecting this 'Trump's statements are a propagandist gift to adversaries' point, because of what I've continued to hear on LBC Radio.

I didn't see it (the BBC usually relays instances like this). But apparently, Trump gave a news conference yesterday, in which he indulged in some self-praise ? Something about commenting on how good his ratings had become ?

Two of LBC's reporters reacted very badly to that, and of course, they gave vent to their opinions, on-air.

First up was Tom Swarbrick. He is relatively neutral on Trump, usually. Not 'for', but not notably 'against', either. But in reaction, Swarbrick branded Trump a 'dangerous narcissist'.

The other, just a couple of hours ago, was James O'Brien. O'Brien is far more 'anti-Trump', and sometimes vitriolic with it. His comment in reaction was predictable: 'A despicable human being' was O'Brien's judgment.

O'Brien had another comment reserved for Trump's public declaration of his refusal to fund Harry and Meghan's security needs. He attributed that refusal to 'a clear example of racism against Meghan'. He said this refusal was all the more remarkable, as the couple had made no request for funding in the first place.

My point is this: Trump REALLY needs to be guarded and careful in what he publicly says !! Because, as matters stand, he's a propagandist gift for all those who want to bring him down.

Swarbrick isn't even particularly anti-Trump (not compared with many). People, here, WILL listen to such commentators and be influenced by them. They'll believe in Trump being 'despicable'. They'll even judge America badly, on the basis that Trump, by their reckoning, 'should not' be supporting Trump.

Trump is a propagandist gift to his enemies, and his lack of care in such matters could turn entire nations against him.

This needs to stop !!
Hey, you're preaching to the choir! I used this types of behavior on his part, granted on less serious issues, since he ran. It's only a part of the non-presidential behaviors-OPENLY manipulative, as opposed to subtly manipulative, as is the norm.

I'm unsure how you seem surprised by it?

Drummond

03-30-2020, 10:02 AM

Hey, you're preaching to the choir! I used this types of behavior on his part, granted on less serious issues, since he ran. It's only a part of the non-presidential behaviors-OPENLY manipulative, as opposed to subtly manipulative, as is the norm.

I'm unsure how you seem surprised by it?

It's not so much surprise, as exasperation.

Trump needs to understand the potential for harm. If the report was accurate, and Trump conveyed self-satisfaction through self-congratulation, this - in a world that's suffering, worried, suffering anguish - cannot play well !

Worse, it taints how the rest of the world will see America, most certainly after the propagandists have got to work.

People will judge America, if it shows fullest approval of Trump, but if this is seen through the filters of propagandists who've used material Trump has given them (!), in a negative light. How many will think O'Brien's charge of 'a despicable human being' holds merit ? How many will judge a country adversely, when it still approves of Trump ?

The trick is NOT to give your enemies rope to hang you with !!

Kathianne

03-30-2020, 10:19 AM

It's not so much surprise, as exasperation.

Trump needs to understand the potential for harm. If the report was accurate, and Trump conveyed self-satisfaction through self-congratulation, this - in a world that's suffering, worried, suffering anguish - cannot play well !

Worse, it taints how the rest of the world will see America, most certainly after the propagandists have got to work.

People will judge America, if it shows fullest approval of Trump, but if this is seen through the filters of propagandists who've used material Trump has given them (!), in a negative light. How many will think O'Brien's charge of 'a despicable human being' holds merit ? How many will judge a country adversely, when it still approves of Trump ?

The trick is NOT to give your enemies rope to hang you with !!
Trump is being Trump.I don't think he cares more about the press than he did 3 years ago.

Drummond

03-30-2020, 12:53 PM

Trump is being Trump.I don't think he cares more about the press than he did 3 years ago.

Whether or not he cares about the press, he should care about what they can bring about.

A British public that's convinced of Trump being 'a bad man', will be one that will expect its politicians to reflect that view in their own conduct. There could be consequences to them, if they fail to.

An example of that could be found in our past, in Tony Blair. Yes, he was leader of our Labour Party, but that didn't stop our Left from rounding on him. Two of his Cabinet Ministers quit because of him. Why ? Because our press was against the Iraq War (2003).

[You just wouldn't believe the vitriol the Daily Mirror printed. The Independent ceased its neutrality over that war.]

Our press painted Blair as being 'Bush's poodle'. It was the old story: Bush would say 'Jump', Blair would be portrayed as saying 'How high ?'

The Iraq War became deeply unpopular, because our press made it so. Blair was, in some circles, a pariah because of his uncompromising support of Bush ... and most particularly when he committed British forces in military support.

Imagine Boris Johnson, armed with that historic example of defying the press and what it had led to, supporting Trump in something that our press took particular exception to. He'd know that he was putting his political future on the line.

The press does possess power .. power to move a national mood to a direction of their choosing. If Trump wants allies, he could lose them when he most wants them.

Kathianne

03-30-2020, 01:01 PM

Whether or not he cares about the press, he should care about what they can bring about.

A British public that's convinced of Trump being 'a bad man', will be one that will expect its politicians to reflect that view in their own conduct. There could be consequences to them, if they fail to.

An example of that could be found in our past, in Tony Blair. Yes, he was leader of our Labour Party, but that didn't stop our Left from rounding on him. Two of his Cabinet Ministers quit because of him. Why ? Because our press was against the Iraq War (2003).

[You just wouldn't believe the vitriol the Daily Mirror printed. The Independent ceased its neutrality over that war.]

Our press painted Blair as being 'Bush's poodle'. It was the old story: Bush would say 'Jump', Blair would be portrayed as saying 'How high ?'

The Iraq War became deeply unpopular, because our press made it so. Blair was, in some circles, a pariah because of his uncompromising support of Bush ... and most particularly when he committed British forces in military support.

Imagine Boris Johnson, armed with that historic example of defying the press and what it had led to, supporting Trump in something that our press took particular exception to. He'd know that he was putting his political future on the line.

The press does possess power .. power to move a national mood to a direction of their choosing. If Trump wants allies, he could lose them when he most wants them.

Hey, I still think he's been awful, at least until the time he got more serious on this virus. Even that hasn't convinced me he isn't a basically horrid person.

So are you now saying that the UK media has changed? They used to write nice about him; suddenly turning out anti-Trump articles? Or that Trump has changed? Suddenly being tone deaf to his effect on the media?

The media is being the media; Trump is being Trump. If anything, both are sometimes toning down their tendencies.