Thinking about no resuscitate laws

[jimnyc]

This will be the result of a lack of ventilators.

Someone I thought posted, or I read somewhere, about a guy who made a device turning just one ventilator into 8 working devices for 8 beds. Perhaps someone can mass produce them as well?

--

US Hospitals Consider Do-Not-Resuscitate Laws for All COVID-19 Patients

US hospitals are considering “do-not-resuscitate” laws for all COVID-19 patients.

The hospital officials are citing that their staff is at high risk of getting exposed to the deadly virus as there is low supply of protective equipment.

Amid the coronavirus outbreak, hospitals in the United States are considering do-not-resuscitate orders for all the patients infected with COVID-19. The hospitals are citing that their staff is at high risk of getting exposed to the deadly virus as there is a low supply of protective equipment like masks and gloves.

The policy refers to doctors telling health care providers to not perform cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) to restore the work of the heart and lungs when the patient stops breathing.

One such hospital is Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago. The hospital is considering the policy for patients.

“It’s a major concern for everyone. This is something about which we have had lots of communication with families, and I think they are very aware of the grave circumstances,” Richard Wunderink, one of Northwestern’s intensive-care medical directors, told the Washington Post, adding that the hospital administrators will speak to Illinois Governor. J.B. Pritzker and ask him to clarify if state law would allow the changes in policy.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/03/us-hospitals-consider-do-not-resuscitate-laws-for-covid-19-all-patients/

[High_Plains_Drifter]

IDK... CPR might not even save someone's life if they stop breathing. They might just stop breathing again in another 30 seconds. So I can see where it might be a good idea to just let them pass when it might mean the death of the care giver for trying to resuscitate them. Care givers lives are rather important right now. We don't have enough of them as is, so, hate to assign importance of one life over another, sounds bad, but, these aren't normal times we're going through right now.

[Abbey Marie]

If there is a shortage of protective equipment, how is resuscitating someone any more dangerous than treating them in the first place? Maybe these hospital workers should just leave everyone at the curb.

[Kathianne]

If there is a shortage of protective equipment, how is resuscitating someone any more dangerous than treating them in the first place? Maybe these hospital workers should just leave everyone at the curb.
That's pretty much what the lt. gov. of TX and Glen Beck are saying, 'for the good of the children.'

[FakeNewsSux]

That's pretty much what the lt. gov. of TX and Glen Beck are saying, 'for the good of the children.'

Oh, so now the Corona Virus is the equivalent of the Black Death?

[Kathianne]

Oh, so now the Corona Virus is the equivalent of the Black Death?
Ask them, maybe.

[FakeNewsSux]

Ask them, maybe.
I don't follow the logic.

[Kathianne]

I don't follow the logic.
Well it's complicated. It wasn't I saying it, but the genius Beck and the lt. gov. of TX.

[Abbey Marie]

That's pretty much what the lt. gov. of TX and Glen Beck are saying, 'for the good of the children.'

That’s an admission that it’s not about fear of health workers getting the virus because of a shortage of protective gear. I knew it sounded like bs.
Death panels are here.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

That’s an admission that it’s not about fear of health workers getting the virus because of a shortage of protective gear. I knew it sounded like bs.
Death panels are here.
If they're to be referred to as that, but were they forced on the system, as in there's no good other choice, or is it taken up as an elective as though there's other options?

[Kathianne]

That’s an admission that it’s not about fear of health workers getting the virus because of a shortage of protective gear. I knew it sounded like bs.
Death panels are here.
I think some of it are folks trying to understand what the President wants. Add that with a real shortage of materials needed and lack of solution to the economy short of ignoring the virus?

That Liberty preacher/University owner called all his students back, 'We got to keep learning, the students want to be here...'

Then the Lt. Gov of TX on Hannity explaining the economy is really the US, he was willing to put his life on the line, so his children and grandchildren would have a better economy.

Beck basically says that if older people don't survive, that's OK, so the children will.

These folks aren't on the left, right?

[FakeNewsSux]

That’s an admission that it’s not about fear of health workers getting the virus because of a shortage of protective gear. I knew it sounded like bs.
Death panels are here.

Technically the Death Panels have existed since the passage of Obamacare, they just haven't been put to widespread use.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Here's the way I see it, simply from a truly pragmatic view point... a person dying, is a person dying, and if they've succumbed, many people have DNR orders when they're knocking on death's door, my father was one of them. Then add into the equation that they're highly infectious and that touching them without the proper protection will infect you as well, in this case a care giver, nurse, doctor, whoever. The dying person can't save anyone, not even them self, but the caregiver/nurse/doctor can, so long as they don't become infected and die themselves.

I don't hold any caregiver at fault in this situation. It's not their fault they don't have masks, gloves, or even respirators, it's the systems, and I don't blame them for not doing CPR if it meant a possible death sentence for them as well. If I catch this crap, and I'm on my last breath, if someone has to risk being infected because of no proper protection to attempt CPR, no, just let me die, that's my fate. Don't kill yourself to save me if you living means you can help other people.

That's about the way I see it, and it's just my opinion. Apparently this is a touchy subject and there's differing opinions. I'm just stating mine and not trying to make anyone mad. You're as free to your opinion as I am to mine.

[Abbey Marie]

I think some of it are folks trying to understand what the President wants. Add that with a real shortage of materials needed and lack of solution to the economy short of ignoring the virus?

That Liberty preacher/University owner called all his students back, 'We got to keep learning, the students want to be here...'

Then the Lt. Gov of TX on Hannity explaining the economy is really the US, he was willing to put his life on the line, so his children and grandchildren would have a better economy.

Beck basically says that if older people don't survive, that's OK, so the children will.

These folks aren't on the left, right?

Nope they are not.

Despite what some may think, I don’t follow the Republican party blindly, or agree with everything I hear on Fox, etc.

Put simply, the economy doesn’t matter to a corpse. Let’s get past the peak of this and then consider foregoing social distancing. Falwell is being ridiculous.

[Kathianne]

Here's the way I see it, simply from a truly pragmatic view point... a person dying, is a person dying, and if they've succumbed, many people have DNR orders when they're knocking on death's door, my father was one of them. Then add into the equation that they're highly infectious and that touching them without the proper protection will infect you as well, in this case a care giver, nurse, doctor, whoever. The dying person can't save anyone, not even them self, but the caregiver/nurse/doctor can, so long as they don't become infected and die themselves.

I don't hold any caregiver at fault in this situation. It's not their fault they don't have masks, gloves, or even respirators, it's the systems, and I don't blame them for not doing CPR if it meant a possible death sentence for them as well. If I catch this crap, and I'm on my last breath, if someone has to risk being infected because of no proper protection to attempt CPR, no, just let me die, that's my fate. Don't kill yourself to save me if you living means you can help other people.

That's about the way I see it, and it's just my opinion. Apparently this is a touchy subject and there's differing opinions. I'm just stating mine and not trying to make anyone mad. You're as free to your opinion as I am to mine.

I certainly would have a DNR, by choice. That isn't what the concern is about, it's lack of choice, of both patient and their family.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

That isn't what the concern is about, it's lack of choice, of both patient and their family.
True... but because of something out of either of their control.

I blame the system, not the hospital, caregiver, etc.

[Kathianne]

Nope they are not.

Despite what some may think, I don’t follow the Republican party blindly, or agree with everything I hear on Fox, etc.

Put simply, the economy doesn’t matter to a corpse. Let’s get past the peak of this and then consider foregoing social distancing. Falwell is being ridiculous.

My concern across the board. I bet you donuts to dollars, these men are not putting themselves at risk. At All.

They've no problem though calling others unpatriotic and not loving their children, grandchildren, the global economic community as much as they do. Sounding and acting a lot like Hillary.

[Kathianne]

True... but because of something out of either of their control.
Well then you are in agreement, let the young go back to work, if they get sick kick an older, worthless person off the ventilator.

[FakeNewsSux]

Nope they are not.

Despite what some may think, I don’t follow the Republican party blindly, or agree with everything I hear on Fox, etc.

Put simply, the economy doesn’t matter to a corpse. Let’s get past the peak of this and then consider foregoing social distancing. Falwell is being ridiculous.

https://youtu.be/-PJC9awbBtM

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Well then you are in agreement, let the young go back to work, if they get sick kick an older, worthless person off the ventilator.
Now you're off on some hyperbole that has nothing to do with my opinion as I stated it.

[FakeNewsSux]

Well then you are in agreement, let the young go back to work, if they get sick kick an older, worthless person off the ventilator.

So it is the Black Death

[Kathianne]

Now you're off on some hyperbole that has nothing to do with my opinion as I stated it.
My apologies. It's how it seemed, you're welcome to correct what I misunderstood.

[Kathianne]

So it is the Black Death
So now you are passive aggressive. :coffee:

[FakeNewsSux]

So now you are passive aggressive. :coffee:
Just trying to nail down your position

[FakeNewsSux]

Today’s Campaign Update, Part III (Because the Campaign Never Ends)

Alex Berenson, himself a former reporter at the New York Times, has a great Twitter thread this morning detailing how his former employer is intentionally mis-informing its readers regarding the real number of ventilators that the nations hospitals will need to deal with the China Virus outbreak.
The content of Berenson’s Twitter thread is detailed below. It should be required reading in every home in America.

https://dbdailyupdate.com/index.php/2020/03/26/how-the-new-york-times-fakes-news-about-ventilators/

[Kathianne]

Just trying to nail down your position
Should be an interesting exercise, since you needed clarification when I was referring to someone else and you keep attributing the position to me.

Silly.

[FakeNewsSux]

Should be an interesting exercise, since you needed clarification when I was referring to someone else and you keep attributing the position to me.

Silly.

As a wise woman I know would summarize:

Keep position fluid to maintain flexibility to attack in various directions. Interpret other's positions as needed to create straw men for your arguments. Got it.

[Kathianne]

As a wise woman I know would summarize:

Keep position fluid to maintain flexibility to attack in various directions. Interpret other's positions as needed to create straw men for your arguments. Got it.
As a wiser woman would say, 'When someone attacks you repeatedly, hit back twice as hard.'

[High_Plains_Drifter]

My apologies. It's how it seemed, you're welcome to correct what I misunderstood.
(Are we "attacking" each other now? ... hmmm... )

Well help me out... I'm baffled as to how you extrapolated the comment below from my stated opinion...

"... let the young go back to work, if they get sick kick an older, worthless person off the ventilator..."

[FakeNewsSux]

FYI:

https://sccm.org/Blog/March-2020/United-States-Resource-Availability-for-COVID-19

[FakeNewsSux]

As a wiser woman would say, 'When someone attacks you repeatedly, hit back twice as hard.'

How Trumpian of you!

[Kathianne]

You could begin where how you came to the conclusion that it is my contention that... how did you put it...

"... let the young go back to work, if they get sick kick an older, worthless person off the ventilator..."

I'm baffled as how you extrapolated that from what I said. Perhaps you could explain...
Forsaking permission of patient or family would be in line with getting people back to work even at the cost of deaths of vulnerable. If going to that level, one must assume an agreement with survival of the most productive, thus saving the resources for the young.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your reasoning for going with letting those folks die, without agreement regarding extraordinary means.

[Abbey Marie]

M
Here's the way I see it, simply from a truly pragmatic view point... a person dying, is a person dying, and if they've succumbed, many people have DNR orders when they're knocking on death's door, my father was one of them. Then add into the equation that they're highly infectious and that touching them without the proper protection will infect you as well, in this case a care giver, nurse, doctor, whoever. The dying person can't save anyone, not even them self, but the caregiver/nurse/doctor can, so long as they don't become infected and die themselves.

I don't hold any caregiver at fault in this situation. It's not their fault they don't have masks, gloves, or even respirators, it's the systems, and I don't blame them for not doing CPR if it meant a possible death sentence for them as well. If I catch this crap, and I'm on my last breath, if someone has to risk being infected because of no proper protection to attempt CPR, no, just let me die, that's my fate. Don't kill yourself to save me if you living means you can help other people.

That's about the way I see it, and it's just my opinion. Apparently this is a touchy subject and there's differing opinions. I'm just stating mine and not trying to make anyone mad. You're as free to your opinion as I am to mine.

If the doctor or nurse let’s the old guy go, and moves on to the next (younger) virus patient without safety gear, they have the same risk of infection. Hence my comment before, why not just leave them all at the curb. It is not a shortage of safety gear that is driving the death panel discussions. It is possibly an upcoming shortage of ventilators or hospital availability in general.

And from my understanding, you don’t get this virus by touching someone. And hospital CPR is not generally mouth to mouth, so is there any more danger to resuscitation than with any medical procedure?

Do you think it is possible that very subconsciously, you aren’t too worried because you don’t have any risk factors?

I would sign a DNR for the usual reasons (brain dead, e.g.) but not for something I could potentially survive and live normally afterwards. Screw that.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Forsaking permission of patient or family would be in line with getting people back to work even at the cost of deaths of vulnerable. If going to that level, one must assume an agreement with survival of the most productive, thus saving the resources for the young.

Again, I apologize if I misunderstood your reasoning for going with letting those folks die, without agreement regarding extraordinary means.
Well... I didn't think I addressed that issue. I was trying to be specific about the lack of personal protection for caregivers, and how I felt about them possibly condemning themselves to a death sentence to resuscitate someone. I could go over it all again but, there shouldn't be a need to be redundant.

The issue you stated above is an even more grave one I think. Something I'm not sure I know enough about to render an opinion, other than, what is the tipping point where we either all get back to work, or some of us get back to work, or none of us and just let our nation entirely implode? What do we do? Hard question to answer far as I'm concerned, but that time is coming, quick.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

If the doctor or nurse let’s the old guy go, and moves on to the next virus patient without safety gear, they have the same risk of infection. Hence my comment before, why not just leave them all at the curb. It is not a shortage of safety gear that is driving the death panel discussions. It is possibly an upcoming shortage of ventilators or hospital availability in general.

And from my understanding, you don’t get this virus by touching someone. And hospital CPR is not generally mouth to mouth, so is there any more danger to resuscitation as they any medical procedure?

Do you think it is possible that very subconsciously, you aren’t too worried because you don’t have any risk factors?

I would sign a DNR for the usual reasons (brain dead, e.g.) but not for something I could potentially survive and live normally afterwards. Screw that.
Well, I'm not discriminating by age. I'm referring to DNR for anyone, young, old, in between.

But you do have a point and I get it. If caregivers in a hospital don't have masks or gloves, then what are they doing coming in contact with ANYONE that's infected, for any reason, feed them, resuscitate them, whatever? You shouldn't even be there if you don't have the proper protection.

But yes, you can catch it from touching an infected person. You can catch it from touching something that an infected person touched. Contact surfaces is the #2 way the virus is spread.

[Abbey Marie]

** Removed video from quote** -Jim (thread croaked here)

Thanks for the clip. It’s not as bad as the news made it sound, keeping the dorms open for apparently stranded foreign students. But I think they should still close the library and labs that are still open.

[Abbey Marie]

Well, I'm not discriminating by age. I'm referring to DNR for anyone, young, old, in between.

But you do have a point and I get it. If caregivers in a hospital don't have masks or gloves, then what are they doing coming in contact with ANYONE that's infected, for any reason, feed them, resuscitate them, whatever? You shouldn't even be there if you don't have the proper protection.

But yes, you can catch it from touching an infected person. You can catch it from touching something that an infected person touched. Contact surfaces is the #2 way the virus is spread.

I’m far from an expert, but I think it’s where you put your hands after you touch it that matters, right? If you touch, then wash before you touch your mouth, nose, I think you should be ok.

[Kathianne]

Well... I didn't think I addressed that issue. I was trying to be specific about the lack of personal protection for caregivers, and how I felt about them possibly condemning themselves to a death sentence to resuscitate someone. I could go over it all again but, there shouldn't be a need to be redundant.

The issue you stated above is an even more grave one I think. Something I'm not sure I know enough about to render an opinion, other than, what is the tipping point where we either all get back to work, or some of us get back to work, or none of us and just let our nation entirely implode? What do we do? Hard question to answer far as I'm concerned, but that time is coming, quick.

If having the proper equipment available is the issue, than this conversation really is just a waste of time.

I thought the point that Abbey was making, which has been in the news for at least a few days, longer if one pays attention to Italy and other countries running ahead of us. The point being that doctors in Italy by circumstances-as they are locked down and staying shut-are forced by sheer numbers to make choices on who gets ventilators and even beds. Over a week ago some hospitals were refusing admission to anyone over 60, regardless of how sick.

Now we have the President getting antsy about the economy, for good reasons. However, he has even indirectly addressed the issue of the vulnerable, the cure shouldn't be worse than the problem. Dead older, weaker folks cannot be the chief concern. Younger, stronger people might get depressed and off themselves. That would be bad, very bad.

So, prioritizing resources may well necessitate kicking an older person off the ventilator or even just send them home with some well wishes and hopes. The young who are temporarily ill, need them. Odds are much better for and with them.

[Abbey Marie]

Well, I'm not discriminating by age. I'm referring to DNR for anyone, young, old, in between.

But you do have a point and I get it. If caregivers in a hospital don't have masks or gloves, then what are they doing coming in contact with ANYONE that's infected, for any reason, feed them, resuscitate them, whatever? You shouldn't even be there if you don't have the proper protection.

But yes, you can catch it from touching an infected person. You can catch it from touching something that an infected person touched. Contact surfaces is the #2 way the virus is spread.

Not an expert, but I think it’s what you do after touching someone that counts. If you wash your hands before touching your own face, you are probably ok. It doesn’t enter through your skin, right?

[FakeNewsSux]

Abbey, what did you think of the Falwell interview?

[jimnyc]

Thanks for the clip. It’s not as bad as the news made it sound, keeping the dorms open for apparently stranded foreign students. But I think they should still close the library and labs that are still open.

I had to edit out the 'quote' of yours, which was the video that FNS posted. It didn't like the quote for some reason and I had to work some magic just to be able to edit the post!

All good now though, and the original video in his post is just fine!

[Abbey Marie]

Abbey, what did you think of the Falwell interview?

I tried to post about it, but something about me quoting the video broke the thread. I think Jim has since fixed it.

I’ll try to reconstruct:

Thank you for the video. It sounds a lot better at Liberty than the news made it out to be if it’s just foreign students who truly have no where else to go. But I think they shouldn’t have the library open for students to go there, or any labs. All should be strictly online. And office hours shouldn’t be at all, not just voluntary.

[Abbey Marie]

I had to edit out the 'quote' of yours, which was the video that FNS posted. It didn't like the quote for some reason and I had to work some magic just to be able to edit the post!

All good now though, and the original video in his post is just fine!

Thanks! I was trying to just delete the post like normal, but couldn’t find a way.

[FakeNewsSux]

I tried to post about it, but something about me quoting the video broke the thread. I think Jim has since fixed it.

I’ll try to reconstruct:

Thank you for the video. It sounds a lot better at Liberty than the news made it out to be if the foreign students truly have no where else to go. But I think they shouldn’t have the library open for students to go there, or any labs. All should be strictly online. And office hours shouldn’t be at all, not just voluntary.

From what I gather from other interviews with Falwell, all Office visits are done online during posted Office hours. I'm not sure how you do labs online without fully equipped labs being set up in each individual dorm room or off campus apartment. I agree on the library since nearly all research books, papers, journals either are or should be available online.

[Gunny]

The moral collapse of a civilization. A once in a lifetime event. :rolleyes:

[High_Plains_Drifter]

If having the proper equipment available is the issue, than this conversation really is just a waste of time.

I thought the point that Abbey was making, which has been in the news for at least a few days, longer if one pays attention to Italy and other countries running ahead of us. The point being that doctors in Italy by circumstances-as they are locked down and staying shut-are forced by sheer numbers to make choices on who gets ventilators and even beds. Over a week ago some hospitals were refusing admission to anyone over 60, regardless of how sick.

Now we have the President getting antsy about the economy, for good reasons. However, he has even indirectly addressed the issue of the vulnerable, the cure shouldn't be worse than the problem. Dead older, weaker folks cannot be the chief concern. Younger, stronger people might get depressed and off themselves. That would be bad, very bad.

So, prioritizing resources may well necessitate kicking an older person off the ventilator or even just send them home with some well wishes and hopes. The young who are temporarily ill, need them. Odds are much better for and with them.
That was very well explained... thanks. My earlier opinion was somewhat related, but a minor issue comparatively.

I guess all I could add to that is... I hope and pray we don't get to that point.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Not an expert, but I think it’s what you do after touching someone that counts. If you wash your hands before touching your own face, you are probably ok. It doesn’t enter through your skin, right?
Hmmm... good question... IDK... I hadn't thought about it. My assumption was that once you come in contact with it, you're probably going to catch it, period, because of clumsiness and whatnot, it's going to get in you, somehow. But, that may not be. I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again...

[Gunny]

So, for the purposes of this conversation, at which arbitrarily chosen age do we throw our parents/grandparents in the trash?

[Abbey Marie]

So, for the purposes of this conversation, at which arbitrarily chosen age do we throw our parents/grandparents in the trash?

Older than me, lol.

[Gunny]

Older than me, lol.:)

I thought maybe someone had come up with a specific age as the Italians did. So we are the country that protects its weak, huh? That's all I've heard from the left as far back as I can remember. I can think of whole bunch of people more deserving of DNR orders than merely old ones.

I seriously believe that such a decision destroys the ideals behind the United States of America.

[FakeNewsSux]

:)

I thought maybe someone had come up with a specific age as the Italians did. So we are the country that protects its weak, huh? That's all I've heard from the left as far back as I can remember. I can think of whole bunch of people more deserving of DNR orders than merely old ones.

I seriously believe that such a decision destroys the ideals behind the United States of America.

That ideal went out with Roe v Wade.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

That ideal went out with Roe v Wade.
Boy you said a mouthful there brother... :beer:

[SassyLady]

And so it begins ....

People with intellectual disabilities may be denied lifesaving care under these plans as coronavirus spreads


Advocates for people with intellectual disabilities are concerned that those with Down syndrome, cerebral palsy, autism and other such conditions will be denied access to lifesaving medical treatment as the COVID-19 outbreak spreads across the country.

Several disability advocacy organizations filed complaints this week with the civil-rights division of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, asking the federal government to clarify provisions of the disaster preparedness plans for the states of Washington and Alabama.

The advocates say the plans discriminate against people with intellectual disabilities by deprioritizing this group in the event of rationing of medical care — specifically, access to ventilators, which are in high demand in treating COVID-19 cases.

More than 7 million people in the U.S. have some form of cognitive disability.

Some state plans make clear that people with cognitive issues are a lower priority for lifesaving treatment. For instance, Alabama’s plan says that “persons with severe mental retardation, advanced dementia or severe traumatic brain injury may be poor candidates for ventilator support.”

Another part says that “persons with severe or profound mental retardation, moderate to severe dementia, or catastrophic neurological complications such as persistent vegetative state are unlikely candidates for ventilator support.”



Other plans include vague provisions, which advocates fear will be interpreted to the detriment of the intellectually disabled community. For instance, Arizona’s emergency preparedness plan advises medical officials to “allocate resources to patients whose need is greater or whose prognosis is more likely to result in a positive outcome with limited resources.” Between a person with cognitive difficulties and a person without them, who decides whose needs come first?



Medical triage always forces hard decisions about who lives and dies. For instance, older people with shorter life expectancy or those with severe dementia are often deemed less deserving of scarce medical resources than younger, healthier individuals. The state plans make clear that the fate of those with intellectual disabilities is part of the wrenching debate.

HHS officials said they are opposed to rationing care for people with any kind of disability.

“Persons with disabilities should not be put at the end of the line for health services based on stereotypes or discrimination, especially during emergencies. Our civil-rights laws protect the equal dignity of every human being from ruthless utilitarianism,” said Roger Severino, the director of the agency’s civil-rights office.

“What we’re seeing here is a clash between disability rights law and ruthless utilitarian logic,” said Ari Ne’eman, a visiting scholar at the Lurie Institute for Disability Policy at Brandeis University. “What this is really about at the end of the day is whether our civil-rights laws still apply in a pandemic. I think that’s a pretty core question as to who we are as a country.”

Advocates and families of those with intellectual disabilities say their community is especially vulnerable to the disease because many of those with significant impairments live in group homes or other congregate settings.
It can sometimes be difficult for people with intellectual disabilities to understand the pandemic and its demands, such as the need to wear masks and heightened protocols for social distancing and hand-washing. The death of Emily Wallace, a 67-year-old with Down syndrome in a group home in Georgia, was an early warning sign of the dangers facing the community, advocates say.

Wallace was a woman of firsts. She and her husband, Richard, were the first couple with intellectual disabilities to marry in the state. They were the first to live independently in their own home in Albany, a small town in the southwestern part of the state. In mid-March, Emily was the first person with an intellectual disability in her community — and possibly one of the first in the nation — to be diagnosed with COVID-19.

She was taken to a local hospital where she died alone.

“Mrs. Wallace is once again the first, but this isn’t what we wanted to celebrate,” said Stacey Ramirez, state director for The Arc of Georgia, a nonprofit advocacy group that serves people with intellectual disabilities.

Emily and Richard Wallace were married for 18 years. A 1992 story in the Albany Herald depicted their life as happily domestic, mentioning that Richard hated to vacuum, while Emily didn’t like to dust, and that she did most of the cooking while he raked the leaves. They made payments on their home and both held down jobs. After Richard, who also had Down syndrome, died in 2018 at 65, Emily moved to a group home operated by The Albany Arc.

After a caregiver apparently brought the coronavirus into the home, Wallace fell ill. So did another resident, who was hospitalized. Emily Wallace had a do not resuscitate order, so a ventilator would not have been an issue even if care were being rationed, said DeAnna Julian, executive director of The Albany Arc.
But as more people are getting sick, Julian said she worries that not enough testing for the virus is being done in Albany. She’s seeing individuals — both with and without intellectual disabilities — who appear to have mild symptoms of COVID-19.

“They’re just turning them around and sending them home, they’re putting them on” antibiotics, she said. “We live here in southwest Georgia where right now, all the cars are covered in yellow pollen and everyone has some kind of seasonal allergies. … Is it just your springtime cold or is it COVID-19?”

Julian doesn’t have masks, gloves or other safety equipment. She doesn’t have enough staff.“It’s a difficult and critical situation here,” she said. But no, Julian said, she didn’t see Wallace or the other group home resident receive treatment any different than anyone else. She said she wouldn’t stand for it. “I’d take it all the way to the top, to the governor! They have every right to be treated like human beings,” Julian said.

With the Americans with Disabilities Act celebrating its 30th birthday this year, activists are questioning whether policymaking has come far enough in what some consider to be the final battle in the fight for civil rights.

In a March 18 letter to Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers, the Survival Coalition, a group of advocacy organizations, wrote, “‘Quality of life’ has long been a pretext for denying treatment, including life-sustaining treatment, to vulnerable populations, particularly people with intellectual disabilities.”

Michael Bérubé and his wife, Janet, live in State College, Pennsylvania, with their son Jamie, who is 28 and has Down syndrome. Bérubé, a professor of literature at Pennsylvania State University and the author, most recently, of the book “Life as Jamie Knows It,” studies disability.

He was not surprised to learn about state rationing plans that single out people with intellectual disabilities and other cognitive conditions.
“It would be a very rare person who sees a person with Down syndrome as innately as valuable and as able to contribute to society as anybody else,” Bérubé said.

Pennsylvania is among those states now scrambling to write up guidelines to determine who will have access to ventilators in case of medical rationing, according to media reports.

“In two weeks, when the resources get truly stressed out, we’ll see how much of this draconian stuff goes into practice,” Bérubé said.

This article was produced in partnership with the ProPublica Local Reporting Network, of which the Arizona Daily Star is a member. ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power.
Contact reporter Amy Silverman at asilverman@tucson.com

[Kathianne]

And so it begins ....

People with intellectual disabilities may be denied lifesaving care under these plans as coronavirus spreads[FONT=Georgia]





Thank you. This was a point I meant to get around to yesterday, but kept getting sidetracked.

The choice to add a DNR could be made by the person or family for many different reasons, none of which have to do with suicide. The choice not to have a DNR also could be for many reasons, though I see little reason to the idea that it would be made because one is unpatriotic or out to hurt the future generations.

Nope, this has to do with euthanasia, like abortion, getting rid of the inconvenient.

In situations like Italy has been under for weeks, it's not by choice to go to a DNR, but serious triage. There are not the beds or ventilators. What the discussions are today have to do with preventing Italy from coming here, without reaching that point.

[Abbey Marie]

That ideal went out with Roe v Wade.

You beat me to it. Though around half of us still maintain that ideal, thank God.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Far as I'm concerned... when it comes down to crunch time, it ought to be FIST COME, FIRST SERVED... or is there a better way? IDK... it's a very, VERY bad situation no matter how you look at it. SOMEONE is going to DIE because of lack of whatever... so... fair is fair... this person came in before that person, hook them up. I don't really see any other equitable thing to do. Who you are, what you are, how old you are, that is ALL, IRRELEVANT. We're all born the same, put our clothes on the same, and DIE the same.

[SassyLady]

Thank you. This was a point I meant to get around to yesterday, but kept getting sidetracked.

The choice to add a DNR could be made by the person or family for many different reasons, none of which have to do with suicide. The choice not to have a DNR also could be for many reasons, though I see little reason to the idea that it would be made because one is unpatriotic or out to hurt the future generations.

Nope, this has to do with euthanasia, like abortion, getting rid of the inconvenient.

In situations like Italy has been under for weeks, it's not by choice to go to a DNR, but serious triage. There are not the beds or ventilators. What the discussions are today have to do with preventing Italy from coming here, without reaching that point.

I try to put myself in the scenario. I'm 68, retired, no DNR for coronavirus situation, and on a ventilator and it's a choice between me and a younger person ......... hmmm, get in line. I worked hard to enjoy my retirement years and still have a few things to do. I am patriotic, have been my whole life, but I deserve to enjoy my hard work and I don't want some nameless, faceless person or panel deciding my worth compared to others.

However, if it were one of my family members I'd sign off in a heartbeat.

I do have a DNR in case I'm brain dead and I'm an organ donor. Guess all these people dying from virus can't donate anything either. Sad.

[Abbey Marie]

Far as I'm concerned... when it comes down to crunch time, it ought to be FIST COME, FIRST SERVED... or is there a better way? IDK... it's a very, VERY bad situation no matter how you look at it. SOMEONE is going to DIE because of lack of whatever... so... fair is fair... this person came in before that person, hook them up. I don't really see any other equitable thing to do. Who you are, what you are, how old you are, that is ALL, IRRELEVANT. We're all born the same, put our clothes on the same, and DIE the same.

It’s one way to go I guess. And you know whatever we do, the wealthy and the “connected” will manage to get treatment. Tale as old as time...

[Kathianne]

Far as I'm concerned... when it comes down to crunch time, it ought to be FIST COME, FIRST SERVED... or is there a better way? IDK... it's a very, VERY bad situation no matter how you look at it. SOMEONE is going to DIE because of lack of whatever... so... fair is fair... this person came in before that person, hook them up. I don't really see any other equitable thing to do. Who you are, what you are, how old you are, that is ALL, IRRELEVANT.

I think in a pandemic, IF the worst happens and none of the possible ideas work to 'buy time,' and the hospitals are facing the worst-choices do have to be made.

There seems to be little question that the elderly with underlying illness do not fair well if the disease takes hold. Unlike regular pneumonia brought on by flu, these people are staying on ventilators for well beyond two weeks, which does not bode well for survival. SOOOoo, what to do if someone is very critical and 85 years old, with a debilitating underlying illness, while a 34 year old father is in critical condition and there is no ventilator available?

Bad times, indeed. Praying that doesn't happen here.

[Kathianne]

It’s one way to go I guess. And you know whatever we do, the wealthy and the “connected” will manage to get treatment. Tale as old as time...
That too is so true. However the problems with availability are also a possible factor. Not yet, but pretty big jump in the numbers of deaths and infections overnight.

[FakeNewsSux]

And so it begins ....

People with intellectual disabilities may be denied lifesaving care under these plans as coronavirus spreads

World War II Germany[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Involuntary_euthanasia&action=edit&section=3)]Main article: Action T4 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_T4)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Hadamar_012.JPG/200px-Hadamar_012.JPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hadamar_012.JPG)

Gas chamber (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chamber) in Hadamar Euthanasia Centre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadamar_Euthanasia_Centre)


Adolf Hitler enacted the Aktion T4 program (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4) in October 1939 to kill "incurably ill, physically or mentally disabled, emotionally distraught, and elderly people". The Aktion T4 program was also designed to kill those who were deemed "inferior and threatening to the well being of the Aryan race". This program was also designed as part of a larger, "Final Solution" eugenics program. Within months of enactment, the Nazis expanded its definition of who could be killed to include those who were of a certain ethnicity as well as class. Six killing centers were established for T4, one of the most notable being the Hadamar Euthanasia Centre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadamar_Euthanasia_Centre). At these centers, people deemed handicapped or "unfit" by "medical experts" were put to death. For example, gas chambers were disguised to look like showers and some people (particularly children) were starved to death. Often at these centers, the victims were murdered together in gas chambers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chamber) using carbon monoxide.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_euthanasia#cite_note-Strous-6) The research undertaken by the Nazis on the victims, was used as a prototype for extermination camps such as Auschwitz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz) and Treblinka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treblinka) later on in the war.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_euthanasia#cite_note-7)[clarification needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)] Approximately 200,000 people were murdered in the six years of the T4 program. The T4 "euthanasia" institutions were shut down by Allied troops in 1945.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_euthanasia#cite_note-Strous-6)

[High_Plains_Drifter]

I think in a pandemic, IF the worst happens and none of the possible ideas work to 'buy time,' and the hospitals are facing the worst-choices do have to be made.

There seems to be little question that the elderly with underlying illness do not fair well if the disease takes hold. Unlike regular pneumonia brought on by flu, these people are staying on ventilators for well beyond two weeks, which does not bode well for survival. SOOOoo, what to do if someone is very critical and 85 years old, with a debilitating underlying illness, while a 34 year old father is in critical condition and there is no ventilator available?

Bad times, indeed. Praying that doesn't happen here.
Well there ya go... the stark reality of the situation, as horrible as it is. Kind of what I was eluding to the other day.

[High_Plains_Drifter]

Well... here it is...

---------------------

Michigan ER Nurse: ‘It’s Going to Be Just like Italy’

A Michigan emergency room nurse on the front lines of the coronavirus pandemic issued a dire warning and chilling update on the reality of the virus and the strain it is having on hospitals, begging people to stay home and warning that “it’s getting to the point now that it’s going to be just like Italy.”

Mary MacDonald, who works for the Ascension Health System, posted a viral update on Instagram this week, detailing her experience after working at the Southfield location to assist with an influx of patients.

https://www.breitbart.com/health/2020/03/27/michigan-er-nurse-going-be-italy/?fbclid=IwAR01URayCDOIqnAW27ZhX_hKLNRrcGtF2L-aA091vQMrRgryMwt_g5u8-6E

[Kathianne]

Well... here it is...

---------------------

Michigan ER Nurse: ‘It’s Going to Be Just like Italy’

A Michigan emergency room nurse on the front lines of the coronavirus pandemic issued a dire warning and chilling update on the reality of the virus and the strain it is having on hospitals, begging people to stay home and warning that “it’s getting to the point now that it’s going to be just like Italy.”

Mary MacDonald, who works for the Ascension Health System, posted a viral update on Instagram this week, detailing her experience after working at the Southfield location to assist with an influx of patients.

https://www.breitbart.com/health/2020/03/27/michigan-er-nurse-going-be-italy/?fbclid=IwAR01URayCDOIqnAW27ZhX_hKLNRrcGtF2L-aA091vQMrRgryMwt_g5u8-6E

It seems that Michigan is not prepared, though not hit as hard as many other areas. Not sure what's going on there.

[Abbey Marie]

I can tell you that here in my county in Delaware, a lot of people are still not taking this seriously. What hope is there?

[Kathianne]

I can tell you that here in my county in Delaware, a lot of people are still not taking this seriously. What hope is there?

Which is why it always has upset me when there's any indication from the top that this isn't 'as serious as some say. . .' It's not the flu.

It's not the end of the world either. I know that. Still, we have already crossed the rubicon on the stay at home, any talk of easing on it should be put as 'easing,' not ending. Lots of caveats and warnings should come with that talk.

[Abbey Marie]

Which is why it always has upset me when there's any indication from the top that this isn't 'as serious as some say. . .' It's not the flu.

It's not the end of the world either. I know that. Still, we have already crossed the rubicon on the stay at home, any talk of easing on it should be put as 'easing,' not ending. Lots of caveats and warnings should come with that talk.

Yup. You don’t withdraw troops while hostilities are escalating.

[Gunny]

Yup. You don’t withdraw troops while hostilities are escalating.Unless your name's Obama :talk2hand:

(And yes, I DID "just have to" post it :))

[icansayit]

I can tell you that here in my county in Delaware, a lot of people are still not taking this seriously. What hope is there?


I look at it this way, kinda pragmatically if I dare say. Maybe the people who refuse to take it seriously are the same people who hate America, are spoiled, selfish, ignorant, stupid, and basically unable to reason or think. Something like....Maybe God has his own plans for those kinds of people...not listening to, or heeding his warnings????
Ya know? Like it's God's way of weeding out the chaff???

This expression first appeared in the Bible. It is a metaphor that speaks about how God will separate those who are worthy and those who are unworthy.